Full Counter: please increase CD to 15 seconds in PvP

[Arcaedus.7290]

In this thread:

Most people: Please, small nerfs to full counter to balance it in pvp/wvw.

Some of the people: Idk how full counter works, but it's kinda op, pls nerf.

Warrior mains: Hurr durr durrr, stop spamming your skills, full counter is fine, l2p scrubs.

[WolfsFang.2301]

@Arcaedus.7290 said:In this thread:

Most people: Please, small nerfs to full counter to balance it in pvp/wvw.

Some of the people: Idk how full counter works, but it's kinda op, pls nerf.

Warrior mains: Hurr durr durrr, stop spamming your skills, full counter is fine, l2p scrubs.

This is so fucking true. The people who are complaining about full counter are the ones who spam skills. Literally all they need to do is not spam every skill off cool down. Learn to read animations.

[Arcaedus.7290]

@WolfsFang.2301 said:

@Arcaedus.7290 said:In this thread:

Most people: Please, small nerfs to full counter to balance it in pvp/wvw.

Some of the people: Idk how full counter works, but it's kinda op, pls nerf.

Warrior mains: Hurr durr durrr, stop spamming your skills, full counter is fine, l2p scrubs.

This is so kitten true. The people who are complaining about full counter are the ones who spam skills. Literally all they need to do is not spam every skill off cool down. Learn to read animations.

In a 1v1, full counter is fine. You can counterplay against it. You can read the warrior to know/see when it's coming and you can activate it then dodge or hold off on your fields to waster their full counter.

Full counter is still very oppressive and overtuned in pvp though. The main issue I have with it is I'm watching that spellbreaker on point. He's loaded up with condis, he's landed some dagger attacks + weaponswap and whirlwind blade. I can tell he's coming back in for full-counter. With 3 other people attacking him + aoe fields underneath, he's guaranteed to get full counter off. Since he's constantly being hit, full-counter procs immediately and I don't see the yellow floating diamond-like shards animation. The actual counterstrike part comes out quicker than the human reflex time (even with finger ready on dodge). My teammates and I instantly take an unblockable 4-5k damage + dazed.

I'm all for the damage and all for the utility FC brings but it just does too much right now and there is absolutely NO countering it in this situation. It's not balanced in its current state. Good suggestions have been made here in the ways of nerfs without gutting it (one or some of the following):

• Increase CD to 10-15s.
• Decrease range to 240
• Make it blockable
• Increase aftercast in between the counter and the strike
• lower the damage by 10-20%
• Don't receive related bonuses unless you actually land a strike with FC.
• Remove daze component

[Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485]

@Arcaedus.7290 said:

@WolfsFang.2301 said:

@Arcaedus.7290 said:In this thread:

Most people: Please, small nerfs to full counter to balance it in pvp/wvw.

Some of the people: Idk how full counter works, but it's kinda op, pls nerf.

Warrior mains: Hurr durr durrr, stop spamming your skills, full counter is fine, l2p scrubs.

This is so kitten true. The people who are complaining about full counter are the ones who spam skills. Literally all they need to do is not spam every skill off cool down. Learn to read animations.

In a 1v1, full counter is fine. You can counterplay against it. You can read the warrior to know/see when it's coming and you can activate it then dodge or hold off on your fields to waster their full counter.

Full counter is still very oppressive and overtuned in pvp though. The main issue I have with it is I'm watching that spellbreaker on point. He's loaded up with condis, he's landed some dagger attacks + weaponswap and whirlwind blade. I can tell he's coming back in for full-counter. With 3 other people attacking him + aoe fields underneath, he's guaranteed to get full counter off. Since he's constantly being hit, full-counter procs immediately and I don't see the yellow floating diamond-like shards animation. The actual counterstrike part comes out quicker than the human reflex time (even with finger ready on dodge). My teammates and I instantly take an unblockable 4-5k damage + dazed.

I'm all for the damage and all for the utility FC brings but it just does too much right now and there is absolutely NO countering it in this situation. It's not balanced in its current state. Good suggestions have been made here in the ways of nerfs without gutting it (

one or some of the following

):

• Increase CD to 10-15s.
• Decrease range to 240
• Make it blockable
• Increase aftercast in between the counter and the strike
• lower the damage by 10-20%
• Don't receive related bonuses unless you actually land a strike with FC.
• Remove daze component

"small nerfs"would you rather revise your statement and say "Huge nerfs which makes the spec unplayable"?

[Darknicrofia.2604]

Maybe you should "git gud" if you can't play SB anymore after a FC nerf.

[masskillerxploit.2165]

@WolfsFang.2301 said:

@Arcaedus.7290 said:In this thread:

Most people: Please, small nerfs to full counter to balance it in pvp/wvw.

Some of the people: Idk how full counter works, but it's kinda op, pls nerf.

Warrior mains: Hurr durr durrr, stop spamming your skills, full counter is fine, l2p scrubs.

... so spot on

[KryTiKaL.3125]

@Arcaedus.7290 said:

@WolfsFang.2301 said:

@Arcaedus.7290 said:In this thread:

Most people: Please, small nerfs to full counter to balance it in pvp/wvw.

Some of the people: Idk how full counter works, but it's kinda op, pls nerf.

Warrior mains: Hurr durr durrr, stop spamming your skills, full counter is fine, l2p scrubs.

This is so kitten true. The people who are complaining about full counter are the ones who spam skills. Literally all they need to do is not spam every skill off cool down. Learn to read animations.

In a 1v1, full counter is fine. You can counterplay against it. You can read the warrior to know/see when it's coming and you can activate it then dodge or hold off on your fields to waster their full counter.

Full counter is still very oppressive and overtuned in pvp though. The main issue I have with it is I'm watching that spellbreaker on point. He's loaded up with condis, he's landed some dagger attacks + weaponswap and whirlwind blade. I can tell he's coming back in for full-counter. With 3 other people attacking him + aoe fields underneath, he's guaranteed to get full counter off. Since he's constantly being hit, full-counter procs immediately and I don't see the yellow floating diamond-like shards animation. The actual counterstrike part comes out quicker than the human reflex time (even with finger ready on dodge). My teammates and I instantly take an unblockable 4-5k damage + dazed.

I'm all for the damage and all for the utility FC brings but it just does too much right now and there is absolutely NO countering it in this situation. It's not balanced in its current state. Good suggestions have been made here in the ways of nerfs without gutting it (

one or some of the following

):

• Increase CD to 10-15s.
• Decrease range to 240
• Make it blockable
• Increase aftercast in between the counter and the strike
• lower the damage by 10-20%
• Don't receive related bonuses unless you actually land a strike with FC.
• Remove daze component

• 10 to 15s cooldown? No.
• 240 Range? Tolerable.
• Blockable? No, that runs counter to the intent of the ability.
• Increase Cast time? Maybe. They did it with Berserker's Arc Divider, but Full Counter even has a longer cast time than that.
• Lower the damage? People call 5k a lot, and it can be, but are people forgetting how Eviscerate or Arc Divider would crit for 7k-9k? And it was blockable unless you used Signet of Might. People complained about that with Arc Divider "it hits too hard and has too much range and you can't even really see it coming." So they give Full Counter less damage, a longer cast time, and a much more obvious visual cue and all they do is add a daze effect to it and people still go "BUT ITS OP AND HURTS TOO MUCH" Where is the logic here now?
• Don't receive related bonuses until hit lands? Thats how it works. The Stability and Resistance are the only things that proc after the Counter itself is proc'd from a hit. The burst related traits (Adrenal Health, Cleansing Ire, Burst Mastery, Revenge Counter, Guard Counter, Attacker's Insight) all only trigger when the Full Counter actually hits, which mind you it can be evaded and invuln'd, which many classes can do in spades.
• Remove daze? Again...completely counter to the intent of this ability. Just like I stated above, its pretty much purely just because of the daze that people find this so "OP" and removing it would just break the purpose of the ability; a counter.

Seriously, I'm not saying Spellbreaker isn't strong, it is very strong, and it can definitely be a source of problems in a team fight but I think rather than exploding all over the class and saying it is far too OP is just going to break the intent it was made for. Providing a means of punishment for people who just mindlessly spam abilities. Now has that concept made the Elite Spec very strong in team fights? Of course, but in that same vein Scourge can pretty hard counter Spellbreaker and its Resistance uptime (the main source of gripe I'm finding). It is all about timing, and rather than a Scourge, or Reaper, or Necro (all of which have Boon corruption) just mindlessly spamming their abilities they should pay attention and make the Spellbreaker, a threat, more susceptible to their ability to control a zone with their conditions. I've run into thieves that just out kite Spellbreaker, Mesmers that out kite Spellbreaker, Scourges that watch for the Resistance pulses and strip them periodically. which are just making the condis melt away health since Warrior doesn't have great condi cleanse (keep in mind cleanse does not mean using Resistance, that does not clear the conditions away).

If anything, and oh I know the response this will get, I think some specs more designed for PvP might need to get tuned up mechanically, not power wise, to be more on par with where Spellbreaker and Scourge are at right now. Some have said "oh thats just power creep" which is the response I expect to get from this post, however Spellbreaker's strength hasn't come from its damage, it has come from its utility. If the damage was the point of the issue then Berserker would have been hit much harder with the nerf bat than it already was and yet it could still pull off those 7k-9k Arc Dividers in PvP, its utility had just been drowned out due to its sustain being watered down to a point where using Berserk Mode was more of a hindrance than a help since it didn't proc Adrenal Health or Cleansing Ire, along with the singular Adrenaline bar only adding 1 stack of Adrenal Health and only clearing 1 condi with Cleansing Ire. Core Warrior ended up being better for PvP than Berserker at that point.

Might I remind some people as well, or more likely inform many others, that Warrior in GW1 in PvP and especially GvG, ran/run Hammer pretty explicitly precisely because it offered tremendous amounts of CC and had builds that complimented that. It was a designated spike class. They were probably one of the strongest sources of CC and lockdown in GvG and would typically chase down Monks or other supports that needed to be set up for a good spike. Granted I'm well aware of the differences in combat mechanics between these games but at the same time I'm actually pretty stoked that Warrior is going to its roots of being a spike class in PvP oriented game modes. So long as Anet doesn't bend to the whining we may actually see them tune other specs toward promoting a lot more strategic gameplay and less "imma just sit hurr an tap all mah bootons". I think what we really need is to just have matchmaking in PvP fixed since the system used is not all that great, and sadly even ranking Gold 1 is probably the easiest thing to accomplish with placement matches which leads to Gold 3s getting paired with people who basically play at a Bronze/Silver level. And WvW well all I have to say is don't blame the classes, blame the tags you're following, or if we're talking more roaming and small skirmishes maybe have better cooperation.

Maybe its not the class that is being the problem maybe its you? What are you bringing to a fight? Is it a build that actually works or are you trying to be some speshul snowflake and run something just cuz you're all "anti meta" and against the establishment yeeeeeah! I'm all for experimenting with builds, trying something new, that is great and fantastic. But if you're intending to run in PvP and you're not running something that can hold its own...then you should be expecting to die. A lot. Also keep in mind you could also just need a lot more practice. I 100% absolutely could not handle Scourges 1v1 or in group fights until I had more practice with it, and also depending on the Scourge player I still can't beat them. And also in a 1vX scenario if the players aren't so good and running weird builds, or only one of those things then yeah I think most of the competent players will win those fights, regardless of being Spellbreaker or not. I've seen very good thieves just dance around 3 players and down them all. I've seen a singular Mesmer just end people in 1v2s or 1v3s. Rangers, Engineers, etc.

Learn, practice, adapt and have some humility.

[Kaga.7629]

@Darknicrofia.2604 said:So SBs can mindlessly spam FC in team fights by just kitten in random AoE/clones/pets without looking at anything other than their skill bar and still get full benefit of FC procs but every single other class need to 100% pay attention to the SB on top of every thing else going on in the fight or they deserve to eat a 4k unblockable daze/slow condi bomb every 8 seconds?

And that's the mistake right there. You don't target the spellbreaker in that fight. You target his support dps.If you have to target that spellbreaker, try not to be obvious about what you're about to do, and try to stay at a sane distance perhaps? Because, as you pointed out, multiple people trying to hit a spellbreaker makes it easier for him to be able to full counter because.... SHOCKER he doesn't have to predict when the next hit will be coming : he's getting hit all the time. This multiman focus actually becomes a liability. Could this be Full counter as a skill working as intended ?

Better yet, are you gonna step inside that golden bubble thing going on and wonder why you got your ass handled to you ? Why, your buffs all just melted.

The reason most warriors are pissed off is because we knew this lynch mob was coming for us, since the very first pvp weekend sampler. Most people that play warrior as a main have had to be pretty tough to make it work from the bottom of the trash heap. Suddenly giving us something that's actually strong & viable ( and intended for pvp, IMAGINE THAT!) , that's DESIGNED to take care of some of the boon heavy invincible bunkers means some people are gonna have to evolve.

But it's easier to ask for blatant, undeserved nerfs. This way you don't have to learn/change anything.

[OriOri.8724]

@Mikeskies.1536 said:Full > @OriOri.8724 said:

@Mikeskies.1536 said:People know that it is an 8 seconds cooldown because it is a Burst right? All Bursts have 8 second cooldowns.

One could argue that it shouldn't be a burst skill since its always available regardless of what weapon you are using. Burst skills are dependent on the weapon you are using. And before you try to argue that "it uses adrenalie therefore its a burst", berserk used adrenaline as well, yet no one considered it a burst skill. Berserk was a rage skill, so it makes sense that FC should be a meditation skill tbh.

Full Counter not being a Burst skill would make it lose out on Burst traits. Also, Full Counter is the sacrifice for being limited to Level 1 Bursts and 2 Bars of Adrenaline. Berserk is a Rage skill because it enables the use of Primal Bursts. Full Counter does not enable the use of a new type of Bursts.

And why is it a problem if it loses out on burst traits? You can already trait FC to be a stupidly effective skill with just SB traits, why do you need to be able to trait if even further?

[Mikeskies.1536]

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Mikeskies.1536 said:Full > @OriOri.8724 said:

@Mikeskies.1536 said:People know that it is an 8 seconds cooldown because it is a Burst right? All Bursts have 8 second cooldowns.

One could argue that it shouldn't be a burst skill since its always available regardless of what weapon you are using. Burst skills are dependent on the weapon you are using. And before you try to argue that "it uses adrenalie therefore its a burst", berserk used adrenaline as well, yet no one considered it a burst skill. Berserk was a rage skill, so it makes sense that FC should be a meditation skill tbh.

Full Counter not being a Burst skill would make it lose out on Burst traits. Also, Full Counter is the sacrifice for being limited to Level 1 Bursts and 2 Bars of Adrenaline. Berserk is a Rage skill because it enables the use of Primal Bursts. Full Counter does not enable the use of a new type of Bursts.

And why is it a problem if it loses out on burst traits? You can already trait FC to be a stupidly effective skill with just SB traits, why do you need to be able to trait if even further?

They nerfed all the Burst traits because of the existence of Full Counter.

[Arcaedus.7290]

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

• 10 to 15s cooldown? No.
• 240 Range? Tolerable.
• Blockable? No, that runs counter to the intent of the ability.
• Increase Cast time? Maybe. They did it with Berserker's Arc Divider, but Full Counter even has a longer cast time than that.
• Lower the damage? People call 5k a lot, and it can be, but are people forgetting how Eviscerate or Arc Divider would crit for 7k-9k? And it was blockable unless you used Signet of Might. People complained about that with Arc Divider "it hits too hard and has too much range and you can't even really see it coming." So they give Full Counter less damage, a longer cast time, and a much more obvious visual cue and all they do is add a daze effect to it and people still go "BUT ITS OP AND HURTS TOO MUCH" Where is the logic here now?
• Don't receive related bonuses until hit lands? Thats how it works. The Stability and Resistance are the only things that proc after the Counter itself is proc'd from a hit. The burst related traits (Adrenal Health, Cleansing Ire, Burst Mastery, Revenge Counter, Guard Counter, Attacker's Insight) all only trigger when the Full Counter actually hits, which mind you it can be evaded and invuln'd, which many classes can do in spades.
• Remove daze? Again...completely counter to the intent of this ability. Just like I stated above, its pretty much purely just because of the daze that people find this so "OP" and removing it would just break the purpose of the ability; a counter.

• Why not 10-15s cd? Even 10s would help curb what it currently is and it obviously wouldn't make SB unplayable. 15s may be a bit too much. 12s would be alright, but I'm in favor of 10s plus minor nerfs elsewhere.
• Yep and keep in mind FC is still larger than a guardian's symbol radius.
• Not really. You still gain the full defensive function of this skill, not to mention it could still synergize with might signet. Spellbreaker already has 2-3 other unblockables (Breaching Strike, Break Enchantments, Winds of Disenchantment). Is that not enough?
• I'm talking about the period of time in between when an attack lands on Full Counter vs. when the aoe strike actually goes out. It's faster than human reaction time. If a Spellbreaker walks into an aoe field and pops fullcounter, you essentially don't see the animation for the block/counter portion of the skill, and the spellbreaker transitions straight from moving/auto attack/whatever, into the counter-strike. If FC is going to be such a strong skill that covers such a large and area, wreaks that much devastation and only has a 6.75s cd, it needs to be slower, like Arc Divider.
• I'm talking exactly about that stability and particularly the resistance. Every condi build (with exception of boon corrupt necro) is completely hardcountered by a spellbreaker with berserker stance, healing signet (optionally: featherfoot grace) and revenge counter traited. If FC is dodged, the SB should receive absolutely no bonuses.
• The daze doesn't make much sense in my opinion. Someone just struck you with a skill and they are still in their after-cast, so you're going to interrupt their.... what exactly? The daze seems to be just thrown onto FC to further power-creep it. Think about it. Is it to stop them from attacking for 1/2 a second? Likely they dodged (or tried to) so that's already 1/2 a second they won't be casting anything on you. And if they eat it well that IS the punishment. Is it to interrupt them? Like I said, no since they just got done using a skill which you countered. Is it to interrupt others? This isn't the intended purpose of the skill and doesn't make sense (let me person A so I can purposely interrupt person B?).

[Mikeskies.1536]

• I'm talking about the period of time in between when an attack lands on Full Counter vs. when the aoe strike actually goes out. It's faster than human reaction time. If a Spellbreaker walks into an aoe field and pops fullcounter, you essentially don't see the animation for the block/counter portion of the skill, and the spellbreaker transitions straight from moving/auto attack/whatever, into the counter-strike. If FC is going to be such a strong skill that covers such a large and area, wreaks that much devastation and only has a 6.75s cd, it needs to be slower, like Arc Divider.
• I'm talking exactly about that stability and particularly the resistance. Every condi build (with exception of boon corrupt necro) is completely hardcountered by a spellbreaker with berserker stance, healing signet (optionally: featherfoot grace) and revenge counter traited. If FC is dodged, the SB should receive absolutely no bonuses.

Full Counter is already like this...

[Ivantreil.3092]

You know, they can keep their so desired full counter as long as i can kite them....

Can i?Evade evade, block, block, 0 0 0 0 0 0 0, projectile reflectio from shield.Go GS and bam, they destroyed my range....With all this shit i try to cc and win range, but nooo, last stand pukes them stability like theres no tomorrow!

[CutesySylveon.8290]

I like how people saying that something has a 'counter' to it immediately means that it's balanced and could never be overtuned in any way because everyone needs to work around a single mechanic from a single class. The amount of knee jerk reactions coming from warriors right now is just pathetic; crying that everyone is out to get them and that people just spam skills and don't want to learn new mechanics.

With this kind of logic, I expect that Revenant be reverted to its original strength at release with much more damage, reducing my energy costs, removing cooldows, and rebuffing any other nerf. Why? Because Revenant is countered by conditions. See? It's balanced. Everyone should just play condi and work around my class because I said so.

In all seriousness, FC does need to be toned down a bit. Not -GUTTED- like most warrior player seems to think that means. If I have to live through 2 years of nerfs to Revenant because it was blatantly OP, then you can get your heads out of your behinds and stop throwing a fit.

[Darknicrofia.2604]

And surge of the mists attacked only in 1 direction, costs energy, is on a longer cooldown and didn't grant resistance or overload you with conditions

Inb4 warriors say you need to spec traits to resist/condi bomb blah blah

[KryTiKaL.3125]

@Arcaedus.7290 said:

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

• Why not 10-15s cd? Even 10s would help curb what it currently is and it obviously wouldn't make SB unplayable. 15s may be a bit too much. 12s would be alright, but I'm in favor of 10s plus minor nerfs elsewhere.
• Yep and keep in mind FC is still larger than a guardian's symbol radius.
• Not really. You still gain the full defensive function of this skill, not to mention it could still synergize with might signet. Spellbreaker already has 2-3 other unblockables (Breaching Strike, Break Enchantments, Winds of Disenchantment). Is that not enough?
• I'm talking about the period of time in between when an attack lands on Full Counter vs. when the aoe strike actually goes out. It's faster than human reaction time. If a Spellbreaker walks into an aoe field and pops fullcounter, you essentially don't see the animation for the block/counter portion of the skill, and the spellbreaker transitions straight from moving/auto attack/whatever, into the counter-strike. If FC is going to be such a strong skill that covers such a large and area, wreaks that much devastation and only has a 6.75s cd, it needs to be slower, like Arc Divider.
• I'm talking exactly about that stability and particularly the resistance. Every condi build (with exception of boon corrupt necro) is completely hardcountered by a spellbreaker with berserker stance, healing signet (optionally: featherfoot grace) and revenge counter traited. If FC is dodged, the SB should receive absolutely no bonuses.
• The daze doesn't make much sense in my opinion. Someone just struck you with a skill and they are still in their after-cast, so you're going to interrupt their.... what exactly? The daze seems to be just thrown onto FC to further power-creep it. Think about it. Is it to stop them from attacking for 1/2 a second? Likely they dodged (or tried to) so that's already 1/2 a second they won't be casting anything on you. And if they eat it well that IS the punishment. Is it to interrupt them? Like I said, no since they just got done using a skill which you countered. Is it to interrupt others? This isn't the intended purpose of the skill and doesn't make sense (let me person A so I can purposely interrupt person B?).

10s I could tolerate potentially if Anet felt the need to hit it with a nerf.

Running Signet of Might with the build would actually remove much of Warrior's anti condi abilities which it desperately needs due to the Cleansing Ire nerfs from the pre-PoF balance patch. Resistance is the only saving grace it has for anti condi, which means in a team fight scenario comp means everything which is honestly a given but sadly you can't account for that because of the silly decision to not allow for 5 man premades in Ranked (why Anet why? Fix your matchmaking systems and we won't get the issue of pugs getting paired against premades). Also no you don't still get the defensive function from Full Counter because it is more than just the negating of the damage that is helpful for the Warrior's sustain in a fight. It is the proccing of Cleansing Ire (clears 1 Condi) and Adrenal Health (adds 1 stack) which all only happen if you actually land the hit.

You need to keep in mind that Arc Divider actually has a faster cast time between activation and the damage dealing phase than Full Counter does. Full Counter has a 1 and a half second cast time, Arc Divider is a 3/4 of a second cast time. You can check these things yourself. Mind you this is the time between when the counter procs and when it deals damage. So hit then dodge. That isn't faster than humanly possible to react to. Also there is a very visible tell for when a Spellbreaker activates Full Counter, thats why timing it is everything and exactly why ability spam gets punished so hard by it because you don't need to time it well to execute the ability. Aka it punishes lower tier play, however even then it can still be avoided due to the 1 and a half second cast time until it deals the damage.

The Stability and Resistance that it procs, even if evaded, don't lost long enough to be considered broken enough to be removed or only occur when a hit occurs. Especially if someone has appropriate sigils.

The daze actually brings Warrior to where it should be in PvP honestly. A heavy spiker. Thats what it was and what it did really well in GW1 and its nice to see that return, I missed it. Like I said the problem isn't necessarily the class and its utility, it is how people play especially at the lower end of things. It will of course very easily disrupt and destroy the average player, and in group play you need to be much more cautious to avoid getting spiked by it but I think that is honestly better for PvP, smaller scale, and needs to stick around. In zergs its relatively negligible due to the high amount of literally everything that gets flung around be it condi, ranged damage, CC, burst, reflects, stability, resistance, etc. Its difficult to balance around those things because WvW can be a chaotic mess just due to how it functions as a mode. Now if they implemented GvG elements that is a different story (which Anet should please do) and I imagine you'd see a lot more coordinated fighting and a lot less random ability spamming due to the concept Spellbreaker brings to a fight.

[CutesySylveon.8290]

Arc Diviner does not have a longer cast time than FC. Full Counter's 1.5 sec time is the duration of the skill, not the cast time; the cast is instant. If there is no tell between when the skill activates and when it begins to counter, then it is extremely difficult to predict and evade, especially if this was achieved through anything besides direct skill usage by you. No one is going to be able to react that quickly. Payoff for getting the skill to work is all well and good, but it is beyond easy to do in most situations.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

@Loop.8106 said:

I've read a bunch of your comments on FC throughout a plethora of threads and this one took the price. Guardians doesnt have to kite warriors?I'm literally speechless and I don't know where to start, but Ill give it a shot. Guardians have 1 "viable" DPS spec right now, that being the Radiant Hammer build. The build relies on killing the enemy before they kill you. The only defensive capabilities you have are blocks. Zero access to vigor, zero access to skills with evade-frames and zero access to skills that can be used for disengage (with the exception of sword 2 + JI to another hostile target).Now that you know what the guardian relies on. There is a total of 1 Skill outside of AA that can be used to properly contest a warrior. That being Mighty Blow. Our heal is dependant on us doing damage in order to heal, which is pretty hard considering double endure pain, Full Counter and Shield 5. That's not mentioning Whirlwind Attack and simply kite out with Rush for the 4 seconds the heal actually last.

Get your head out of the sand. There is no possible way a Guardian should ever beat a Spellbreaker.

Edit: You might have meant it as a Guard doesnt have to kite, they will die regardless. In which case you're absolutly right.

What you don't seem to understand throughout my posts is I'm not defending Warrior overall. I'm defending full counter, because it's good for the game. This game needs more powerful anti spam abilities on every single class IMO.

Spellbreaker does need a nerf, but it's not FC that's the problem with it. It's the defensive trait line and Last stand that allows warriors to become unkillable while being able to spam attacks without worry since LS lets them have a full 12 seconds of pulsing immunities on very short cooldowns. FC is not why you are dying to warriors, you die to warriors because you can't disrupt them since they have constant resistance/stability being pulsed on them.

People are legit complaining about the wrong thing because they want to be able to spam and FC doesn't let them spam.

[CutesySylveon.8290]

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:

@Loop.8106 said:

I've read a bunch of your comments on FC throughout a plethora of threads and this one took the price. Guardians doesnt have to kite warriors?I'm literally speechless and I don't know where to start, but Ill give it a shot. Guardians have 1 "viable" DPS spec right now, that being the Radiant Hammer build. The build relies on killing the enemy before they kill you. The only defensive capabilities you have are blocks. Zero access to vigor, zero access to skills with evade-frames and zero access to skills that can be used for disengage (with the exception of sword 2 + JI to another hostile target).Now that you know what the guardian relies on. There is a total of 1 Skill outside of AA that can be used to properly contest a warrior. That being Mighty Blow. Our heal is dependant on us doing damage in order to heal, which is pretty hard considering double endure pain, Full Counter and Shield 5. That's not mentioning Whirlwind Attack and simply kite out with Rush for the 4 seconds the heal actually last.

Get your head out of the sand. There is no possible way a Guardian should ever beat a Spellbreaker.

Edit: You might have meant it as a Guard doesnt have to kite, they will die regardless. In which case you're absolutly right.

What you don't seem to understand throughout my posts is I'm not defending Warrior overall. I'm defending full counter, because it's good for the game. This game needs more powerful anti spam abilities on every single class IMO.

Spellbreaker does need a nerf, but it's not FC that's the problem with it. It's the defensive trait line and Last stand that allows warriors to become unkillable while being able to spam attacks without worry since LS lets them have a full 12 seconds of pulsing immunities on very short cooldowns. FC is not why you are dying to warriors, you die to warriors because you can't disrupt them since they have constant resistance/stability being pulsed on them.

People are legit complaining about the wrong thing because they want to be able to spam and FC doesn't let them spam.

I'm afraid I disagree that we need more anti spam mechanics in place, rather I think the ability to spam such things in the first place needs to be addressed primarily. Confusion is one method they added to deal with constant attackers, but I find things like this, torment included, to be very unhealthy in a PvP environment. I've always thought Anet had the wrong approach with dealing with things like boon spamming, condi spamming, (insert something) spam in that they make more things to combat the spam that get out of control and end up power creeping the game; which is exactly where we're at now. I can accept a few counter mechanics here and there when they're properly balanced, but FC has just too much going for it for how easy it is to achieve.

I can respect that you find the idea worth giving to all classes to help even the playing field, but if this were to happen, then there would need to be a significant balance adjustment to a lot of other things in PvP.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:Arc Diviner does not have a longer cast time than FC. Full Counter's 1.5 sec time is the duration of the skill, not the cast time; the cast is instant. If there is no tell between when the skill activates and when it begins to counter, then it is extremely difficult to predict and evade, especially if this was achieved through anything besides direct skill usage by you. No one is going to be able to react that quickly. Payoff for getting the skill to work is all well and good, but it is beyond easy to do in most situations.

What? No. Go into the PvP lobby and go test it. Get Full Counter to proc and watch for the cast bar when it does. It has a 1 and a half second activation time after the counter attack is triggered, it is not instant. You can check for these things yourself extremely easily. To activate the skill it is instant, sure, but the duration is 2 seconds, it just doesn't list it but the activation time of the actual attack is 1 and a half seconds.

[CutesySylveon.8290]

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:Arc Diviner does not have a longer cast time than FC. Full Counter's 1.5 sec time is the duration of the skill, not the cast time; the cast is instant. If there is no tell between when the skill activates and when it begins to counter, then it is extremely difficult to predict and evade, especially if this was achieved through anything besides direct skill usage by you. No one is going to be able to react that quickly. Payoff for getting the skill to work is all well and good, but it is beyond easy to do in most situations.

What? No. Go into the PvP lobby and go test it. Get Full Counter to proc and watch for the cast bar when it does. It has a 1 and a half second activation time after the counter attack is triggered, it is

not

instant. You can check for these things yourself extremely easily. To activate the skill it is instant, sure, but the duration is 2 seconds, it just doesn't list it but the activation time of the actual

attack

is 1 and a half seconds.

I did test this and it most certainly is NOT 2 seconds or 1.5 seconds. That's almost as slow as Drop the Hammer from Revenant (Hammer 5) and we all know how slow that is. If you actually tested this, you would see that there are two activation bars that come up; the first one is the duration of the block, 1.5 seconds, and the second appears after you're attacked and begin the counter attack. It's roughly .5 seconds between the proc and the counter attack. Unless this is some effect under slow, which I am not going to test, then I have no idea where you are getting this from.

If you were attacked at the absolute last moment possible in the initial phase, which would be 1.5 seconds after you cast it, then the follow up would have taken a total of 2 seconds total from the time you hit f2 to the time you countered. However, if you are attacked instantly after you cast the ability, which is instant cast, then the most time it takes to counter is .5 seconds.The counter itself is roughly .5 seconds, which is faster than Arc Diviner, the block duration is 1.5 seconds. If it took 2 seconds, or even 1.5 seconds to successfully use FC after you were attacked, then it would be beyond useless.

[Kuya.6495]

I would prefer that FC work on 2-3 targets rather than one so a SB can fight a 2v1. I also would leave at FC at 8 seconds and make it go to 16 seconds if the skill is not triggered. That way you punish a warrior for spamming FC.

[OriOri.8724]

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:

@Loop.8106 said:

I've read a bunch of your comments on FC throughout a plethora of threads and this one took the price. Guardians doesnt have to kite warriors?I'm literally speechless and I don't know where to start, but Ill give it a shot. Guardians have 1 "viable" DPS spec right now, that being the Radiant Hammer build. The build relies on killing the enemy before they kill you. The only defensive capabilities you have are blocks. Zero access to vigor, zero access to skills with evade-frames and zero access to skills that can be used for disengage (with the exception of sword 2 + JI to another hostile target).Now that you know what the guardian relies on. There is a total of 1 Skill outside of AA that can be used to properly contest a warrior. That being Mighty Blow. Our heal is dependant on us doing damage in order to heal, which is pretty hard considering double endure pain, Full Counter and Shield 5. That's not mentioning Whirlwind Attack and simply kite out with Rush for the 4 seconds the heal actually last.

Get your head out of the sand. There is no possible way a Guardian should ever beat a Spellbreaker.

Edit: You might have meant it as a Guard doesnt have to kite, they will die regardless. In which case you're absolutly right.

What you don't seem to understand throughout my posts is I'm not defending Warrior overall. I'm defending full counter, because it's good for the game. This game needs more powerful anti spam abilities on every single class IMO.

Spellbreaker does need a nerf, but it's not FC that's the problem with it. It's the defensive trait line and Last stand that allows warriors to become unkillable while being able to spam attacks without worry since LS lets them have a full 12 seconds of pulsing immunities on very short cooldowns. FC is not why you are dying to warriors, you die to warriors because you can't disrupt them since they have constant resistance/stability being pulsed on them.

People are legit complaining about the wrong thing because they want to be able to spam and FC doesn't let them spam.

Skills like full counter are not good for the game. You complain about spam, but then go on to sing praises about a skill that is one of the most spammy in the game? Not only does it have a low CD to begin with, but it deals fairly high damage for that CD, deals AoE unblockable damage, AoE unblockable daze, AoE boon strip, gives you power/ferocity from insight, gives you evasion, and gives you stab baseline. Not to mention that it can also be traited to provide protection, resistance, copy 5 conditions to enemies, apply cripple and slow, refreshes burst skills, not to mention can be traited even further via traiting burst skills.

There are 2 types of spam in games. One is mindlessly spamming your skills off CD. Its indicative of bad play, but not bad balance. The other spam is feature spam, where a single skill can do too many things. This is indicative of bad balance, and is far worse for games than mindless spamming of skills off CD is. Full Counter is, without doubt, one of the most overloaded skills in the entire game when fully traited, and its only on an 8sec base CD. Full counter is the definition of spam, so its highly hypocritical for you to praise it so highly in the same posts where you condemn spam so much. Because full counter is the worst kind of spam.

If you want to nerf spam that's great, I do too, as spammy skills is one of the worst problems in PvP right now imo. But go after real targets. Skills that are doing too many things, especially when they are on low CDs. Full Counter is the worst of these when you trait it, and even untraited it still does a ton of shit due to synergy with SB minor traits.

[Crinn.7864]

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:Running Signet of Might with the build would actually remove much of Warrior's anti condi abilities which it desperately needs due to the Cleansing Ire nerfs from the pre-PoF balance patch.

At no point since 2013 has Cleansing Ire been nerfed.

Unless you are talking about Berserker's primal bursts being down graded from T3 to T1 bursts, which is literally irrelevant as far as spellbreaker is concerned.

[Velimere.7685]

Just nerf Full Counter's radius to 150 and call it a day.