The problem with mirage isn't CI or shatters...

[bravan.3876]

@Eurantien.4632 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Eurantien.4632 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"Xervite.5493" said:The only thing that makes people complain about mirage is target breaking. Target breaking is very strong since mirage can produce so many targets on screen.

current metabattle has 0 targetbreaking in its build, ofc you can switch it up but you will lose other things.I for one would be happy if clone condi got nerfed, and mesmer condi got buffed.TLDR : take away damage from the clones and trasnfer to mesmer hismelf.I wish power memer would be good too ;-;

Are you kidding? Power mesmer is incredibly good. It's just hard to play. Probably the only build in this game that's properly balanced in that regard.More like : are you kidding me, i'm getting outplayed by Zeromis 24/7 thus this kitten class is broken. I remember that. Also its HARD to play not because its rly hard, but because you have to OUTPLAY everyone else compared to roflspecs

He is NA don't even bother tbh, they have a weird view on Mesmer and Mesmer utilities. That is from a different meta and because even high rated ppl there tunnelvision very hard and can't dodge the most obvious burst from what i see on NA streams. And Powermes always was a good noobkiller, that is why it is working very well on NA on every rank. And no i am not biased vs. NA i know they are not all bad. But the number of decent and above player is so low that you can be sure to find enough noobs in a team you can take out easy with Powermes no matter how carried by build they are. NA is just dead, sad as it is, no competition at all, it makes no sense to base any balance suggestions or statements about how skilled someone is on experiences made in NA only. In EU we have more than one Powermes i consider way better than Zeromis and still you only play Powermes in EU for some weird honor claim for playing soemthing not carrying you or when you just want to have a much harder time than everyone else on Metabuilds because you are a masochist. I mean yes i say too, when you are very high skilled you can make it work even on higher ranks and mATs EU but you indeed have to play better than everyone you meet the moment player are decent mechanically and have some map awareness. I only agree to Powermes balance from skill vs reward is the most balanced in this game, sadly everything else gives you more reward even when you are lower skilled.

Well maybe someday, we will see some of these mythical EU players come win a monthly against a team who is like 250-0 for W-L. That'd be really exciting to see an EU team score more than 100 points against them. Would be a nice change from the other EU teams that have tried.

I really wish you guys could understand what a mechanically great power mesmer can do. You wouldn't be asking for buffs.

No clue what you are talking about, you compare a team performance with individual skill. Team USA is the only team left in the game including some ex ESL player, playing together since longer, EU doesn't even have a team like that anymore after r55 died. So what came to NA was not even the best of the rest in EU it was only the few ppl still doing Ats in EU, often in random teams with changing teamcomps and player. You cannot compare that at all, ofc they get stomped, also i would not consider player like Miaz/ Flandre even near at Top lvl. Not only some but most of the best EU players don't even participate in Ats and UGOs. Still they roflstomped every other NA team if i remember right.Just lately we have 1-3 teams playing together more frequently during dailies and the few last mATs (means with same player/setups). Mighty Teapot is part of one, that says a lot already about the situations of "Teams" in EU. None of these teams has the team performance of Team USA until now. That doesn't say much about the idividual skill lvl of the players. Also im not saying since ever NA< EU but fact is NA is more dead with way less competition left than EU. The number of players, in particular good players is way lower. The whole LB is a joke ty to Helio and Co. (in EU Top 25 is 80% a wintrade joke too tho but still). NA also always had a different meta. At this point NA simply is not a good indicator for balance suggestions and skill lvl of ppl playing there, no matter that NA also has good player and the one team with the best teamperformance in which Zeromis even could play nacked 2 traitline thief and they still would win everything.

I don't ask for buffs for Powermes i ask for nerfs on everything else to have the same skillneed-reward relation as Powermes. That is the great thing about Powermes that you can make it work because of its active outplay potential, no matter how much more carry other builds are. But as said you have to do 30 times more for the same reward/ impact, be 30 times better than a metacarried noob to make it work.

@Tayga.3192 said:

@Eurantien.4632 said:snip

I mean, Shorts was dueling Cellofrag when ele was really bad and it wasn't one sided.

Bunkerele never was rly bad (only doesn't have a role in conquest that is a difference) and in duels it hardcounters Powermes. Cello should not have lost a single fight vs Shorts but that doesn't even matter, Cello is not rly a good Ele (sry for all give away fanboys) and Shorts is not a top lvl Mesmer. These duels are completely useless to prove anything about skill lvl NA vs EU.

[Eurantien.4632]

@bravan.3876

That's the problem with balance and design though.

I don't think power mirage is super difficult to play, you just have to have the mechanical practice invested into it to be successful. But that's what makes it good. With that investment and its design + kit. It can be very very powerful in good hands and terrible in bad hands.

Other things in this game just don't really have that same design nor kit to back it up and allow for a steep skill ceiling. Like ranger for example: it has really only been played when broken numbers wise. Where anyone could be decent at it with little effort. For a long time, there was still a difference between rangers based a lot on pet control. Now, smokescale plays itself 90% of the time and requires no input. In this regard, ranger has no steep skill ceiling like power mirage does. And that won't change imo unless pet skills are all required to be activated by the ranger... and I think the same thing goes with many classes.

[Mbelch.9028]

@SPESHAL.9106 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Staff is indeed an outlier as the only ambush that doesn't have either reduced condition stacks, or stack duration like the axe and scepter ambushes.

It's also an outlier in that it can be literally circle strafed and avoided completely.

But circle strafing means jack when you're perpetually immobilized, and stun locked, and stuck eating literally 100% of everything thrown at you.

There isn't a single meta build that isn't going to kill someone with 9 seconds to freely whale on them.

It is CI and Mantra of Distraction. Those aren't the only problems with mirage. But they are the main problems right now. And if they weren't using staff they would go Axe or maybe Sword.

... How did mesmers get out of internal testing 1.5 years ago???

Internal testing. Lol, sweet, sweet summer child.

[Vancho.8750]

The problem with mirage is that they are always in control, and the only way to beat them is for them to fuck up and slap them randomly between defense abilities and dodges, conditions and ccs cover the small time they are vulnerable and when things get bad they blink away and reset. The only way i found to work to beat it is to flail around randomly and manage to cleanse enough confusion and torment so you can follow them since everything you do is working against you in some manner, make them waste their defense and then pop some large damage cd to blow em up, but it only works vs bandwagoners that just play it for how easy it is and have no idea how to play properly, good luck trying to beat experienced mesmer on that easy build. You can't really cc them for f sake.The mirage is the speck that simulates lag, the existence of the build is just to ruin your enjoyment of the game on every step, doesn't matter win or lose it just pushes your buttons till you lose your temper.I remember the one ventri build that was doing almost the same it was just knocking you back constantly and it came after the nerfs to pulsing stability.

[Thorstienn.1642]

Mesmer has always been a troll class, and condi mirage just takes it to a new level. This is unfortunate for both the class and the PvP of the game.For the class, as it inherently makes it more effective in lower tiers and less effective in higher tiers as players learn to "ignore"/see through the gimmicks and deal with the conditions (ie dont spam abilities and runs round with stacks of torment and confusion). This is bad design as it leads to lower tiers screaming for nerfs and higher tiers crying about nerfs.For the mode, as I think mesmer in general and condi mirage in particular, is the no1 cause of new to the mode players giving up on pvp in this game: followed by 1 shots builds, stealth mechanics, toxicity, and if they make it far enough the Matchmaking system.In saying that, I dont know how to fix it, but I do know that Anet has not done it correctly so far. In the future mirage will get the chrono treatment and lose IP, and probably get different shatters.Personally I'd make all mantras 600 range max, and lower the condi pressure from Infinite Horizon somehow, and then leave that for a while to see how it goes.

[bravan.3876]

Merge this pls No. 6

[GoldenPants.1870]

I just want them to remove the infinite Immobilize for Mirages.. Because then atleast you can fight back. =/

[Leonidrex.5649]

@GoldenPants.1870 said:I just want them to remove the infinite Immobilize for Mirages.. Because then atleast you can fight back. =/

you can counter with stealth,condi cleanse,stability or baiting CC. but I agree immob lasts too long, slight nerf would be welcome.As I suggested in other thread, it would be nice if it didnt scale with condi duration and always remained at 2s.

[megilandil.7506]

@"Thorstienn.1642" said:Mesmer has always been a troll class, and condi mirage just takes it to a new level. This is unfortunate for both the class and the PvP of the game.For the class, as it inherently makes it more effective in lower tiers and less effective in higher tiers as players learn to "ignore"/see through the gimmicks and deal with the conditions (ie dont spam abilities and runs round with stacks of torment and confusion). This is bad design as it leads to lower tiers screaming for nerfs and higher tiers crying about nerfs.For the mode, as I think mesmer in general and condi mirage in particular, is the no1 cause of new to the mode players giving up on pvp in this game: followed by 1 shots builds, stealth mechanics, toxicity, and if they make it far enough the Matchmaking system.In saying that, I dont know how to fix it, but I do know that Anet has not done it correctly so far. In the future mirage will get the chrono treatment and lose IP, and probably get different shatters.Personally I'd make all mantras 600 range max, and lower the condi pressure from Infinite Horizon somehow, and then leave that for a while to see how it goes.

This

because the real problem with mesmer is the clone mechanic, low tier players even get a posibility of understand what hapends and fight more againts the computer that a low tier mesmer, low medium tier player have a remote idea what was happening but their invest almost all the time in the fight trying to figure who is the real mesmer, medium high players have and idea of what is hapening and can identify real mesmer in a reasonable time, but the time lost in it is often enought to allow mesmer to try the one shot or to reset, high tier players identify real mesmer almost instanly and can manage to have an even fight with the mesmer.

And mirage agravated this because clasic mesmer and crhono have some dificulty to use and makes almost no presence in low tiers, only some troll alt acounts and some players that have a medium skill on mesmer but 0 map awareness and that dragged them ranks below their mechanical skill,but mirage can work just blindly smashing keyboard on cd

[Leonidrex.5649]

@megilandil.7506 said:

@"Thorstienn.1642" said:Mesmer has always been a troll class, and condi mirage just takes it to a new level. This is unfortunate for both the class and the PvP of the game.For the class, as it inherently makes it more effective in lower tiers and less effective in higher tiers as players learn to "ignore"/see through the gimmicks and deal with the conditions (ie dont spam abilities and runs round with stacks of torment and confusion). This is bad design as it leads to lower tiers screaming for nerfs and higher tiers crying about nerfs.For the mode, as I think mesmer in general and condi mirage in particular, is the no1 cause of new to the mode players giving up on pvp in this game: followed by 1 shots builds, stealth mechanics, toxicity, and if they make it far enough the Matchmaking system.In saying that, I dont know how to fix it, but I do know that Anet has not done it correctly so far. In the future mirage will get the chrono treatment and lose IP, and probably get different shatters.Personally I'd make all mantras 600 range max, and lower the condi pressure from Infinite Horizon somehow, and then leave that for a while to see how it goes.

This

because the real problem with mesmer is the clone mechanic, low tier players even get a posibility of understand what hapends and fight more againts the computer that a low tier mesmer, low medium tier player have a remote idea what was happening but their invest almost all the time in the fight trying to figure who is the real mesmer, medium high players have and idea of what is hapening and can identify real mesmer in a reasonable time, but the time lost in it is often enought to allow mesmer to try the one shot or to reset, high tier players identify real mesmer almost instanly and can manage to have an even fight with the mesmer.

And mirage agravated this because clasic mesmer and crhono have some dificulty to use and makes almost no presence in low tiers, only some troll alt acounts and some players that have a medium skill on mesmer but 0 map awareness and that dragged them ranks below their mechanical skill,but mirage can work just blindly smashing keyboard on cd

play mesmer for 2-3 days with all weapons and you will identify mesmer in the sea of clones in 0,1s. + you can mark the real one and it stays marked untill he stealths.

[Meteor.3720]

@megilandil.7506 said:

@"Thorstienn.1642" said:Mesmer has always been a troll class, and condi mirage just takes it to a new level. This is unfortunate for both the class and the PvP of the game.For the class, as it inherently makes it more effective in lower tiers and less effective in higher tiers as players learn to "ignore"/see through the gimmicks and deal with the conditions (ie dont spam abilities and runs round with stacks of torment and confusion). This is bad design as it leads to lower tiers screaming for nerfs and higher tiers crying about nerfs.For the mode, as I think mesmer in general and condi mirage in particular, is the no1 cause of new to the mode players giving up on pvp in this game: followed by 1 shots builds, stealth mechanics, toxicity, and if they make it far enough the Matchmaking system.In saying that, I dont know how to fix it, but I do know that Anet has not done it correctly so far. In the future mirage will get the chrono treatment and lose IP, and probably get different shatters.Personally I'd make all mantras 600 range max, and lower the condi pressure from Infinite Horizon somehow, and then leave that for a while to see how it goes.

This

because the real problem with mesmer is the clone mechanic, low tier players even get a posibility of understand what hapends and fight more againts the computer that a low tier mesmer, low medium tier player have a remote idea what was happening but their invest almost all the time in the fight trying to figure who is the real mesmer, medium high players have and idea of what is hapening and can identify real mesmer in a reasonable time, but the time lost in it is often enought to allow mesmer to try the one shot or to reset, high tier players identify real mesmer almost instanly and can manage to have an even fight with the mesmer.

And mirage agravated this because clasic mesmer and crhono have some dificulty to use and makes almost no presence in low tiers, only some troll alt acounts and some players that have a medium skill on mesmer but 0 map awareness and that dragged them ranks below their mechanical skill,but mirage can work just blindly smashing keyboard on cd

The issue with clones isnt how to identify the real mesmer ... it's the fact that they pump out so many condis with IH that you can't dodge everything or cleanse it all, and that's without the CI immob and interrupts. The immob just makes the clones' condi pressure more effective as they land their hits. But the real problem isnt CI or finding the real mes, it's IH and the fact that clones' condi damage is calculated from the mesmer itself rather than their own lower source as with power clones