Disable another degenerate build please

[praqtos.9035]

Problem still here, who would guess. Idk what other ppl see but I see 3-4 thieves every single game, not even condi mesmers but thieves. Almost all of them are condi drd and very few had staff.Sword2 evade and back behind the wall, very fun,interactive and much counter play we have, especially weakness that shut down evades and power based specs.

[saerni.2584]

Could always make Sword 2’s first teleport require LoS...

[praqtos.9035]

@saerni.2584 said:Could always make Sword 2’s first teleport require LoS...That too, I have a clip where I approach a point on skyhammer and drd behind the wall jump on me,sht with tons of conditions and 17 poisions and teleport back, I'm ofc ded xDBut this doesnt fix the issue with the amount of condi application coming from an evade or passives... especially WEAKNESS, the condition nullify ability to fight back with power spec completely.

[saerni.2584]

@praqtos.9035 said:

@saerni.2584 said:Could always make Sword 2’s first teleport require LoS...That too, I have a clip where I approach a point on skyhammer and drd behind the wall jump on me,kitten with tons of conditions and 17 poisions and teleport back, I'm ofc ded xDBut this doesnt fix the issue with the amount of condi application coming from an evade or passives... especially WEAKNESS, the condition nullify ability to fight back with power spec completely.

But have you tried running cleanse though?

[praqtos.9035]

@saerni.2584 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@saerni.2584 said:Could always make Sword 2’s first teleport require LoS...That too, I have a clip where I approach a point on skyhammer and drd behind the wall jump on me,kitten with tons of conditions and 17 poisions and teleport back, I'm ofc ded xDBut this doesnt fix the issue with the amount of condi application coming from an evade or passives... especially WEAKNESS, the condition nullify ability to fight back with power spec completely.

But have you tried running cleanse though?Of course not, who need cleanses when you face 1-2 condi daredevils /sI cant afford taking every single cleanse and dedicated traitline just because a single class (as I said there could be 1 or 2, vs 2 no amount of cleanses is going to save me) in enemy team (that could be staff or d/p thieves actually whine they are weak and have no diversity, heh).How on earth I'm even supposed to cleanse 5-6 condis each time he jumps on me with an immobilize? How someone can even defend this brain dead gameplay as SW2,dodge?

[dDuff.3860]

If you have troubles fighting condi thieves and winning games, this is completely l2p issue.It can be brought down, but not for much just to make up for tears.

[praqtos.9035]

@dDuff.3860 said:If you have troubles fighting condi thieves and winning games, this is completely l2p issue.It can be brought down, but not for much just to make up for tears.

Thief players defend braindead builds, more news at 11. Not being able to cleanse 5 condis being immobilized 3-4 times is l2p issue, sure :joy:

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@praqtos.9035 said:

@dDuff.3860 said:If you have troubles fighting condi thieves and winning games, this is completely l2p issue.It can be brought down, but not for much just to make up for tears.

Thief players defend braindead builds, more news at 11. Not being able to cleanse 5 condis being immobilized 3-4 times is l2p issue, sure :joy:

News at 11 a mirage player (of all classes ?) complaing about sw2, a skill that's existed how long? Before the poison trait change in DA I cant even remember anyone complaining about it lmao. Meanwhile mirages are stealth bursting people to 0 in a literal sec, talk about glass house. U sure are on a anti thief mission considering the class u play is considered by the majority of players to be as bad or worse to fight against as far as annoyance and cheese goes lol.Just sayin !

[NecroSummonsMors.7816]

Condi daredevil is probably the most unfun build to fight, with one of the most oppressive condi pressure in game, since it can basically repeat the burst with almost no downtime. it think should be reworked. Can it be killed?yes Do you have to pack more condi cleanse than ever just to do it? sure What happen it's 2 of it stacked?madness and stupidity(cit)I would look at deadly ambition, panic strikes and remove the finisher from lotus training that contribute to spamming poison in poison field. Fortunately cluster bomb now doesn't trigger 10 stacks of poison like it did before in a poison field.

[praqtos.9035]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@"dDuff.3860" said:If you have troubles fighting condi thieves and winning games, this is completely l2p issue.It can be brought down, but not for much just to make up for tears.

Thief players defend braindead builds, more news at 11. Not being able to cleanse 5 condis being immobilized 3-4 times is l2p issue, sure :joy:News at 11 a mirage player (of all classes ?) complaing about sw2.

Smells like a few logical fallacies

.Since you arent smartest thief main, let me educate you, sword2 does the same as CI did for condi mirage and claimed to be a degenerate build, condi daredevil does it at will and IT IS a degenere build. (you even said yourself about DA condi trait on top xD)Meanwhile mirages are stealth bursting people to 0 in a literal secIs that some kind of "whataboutism" ? I'm not really expert in logical fallacies tbh. But okay, thief easly does the same, how does it related to condi daredevil?

[rowdy.5107]

just play d/d condi thief. you wont ever have to worry about a s/d condi thief killing you again lol

[Crab Fear.1624]

Thief Hater Crab:

I feel like most of the complaints about condi daredevil are coming from the s/x daredevil.

more prominently the s/d version.

I haven't seen many complaints about p/d condi, d/d condi, d/p condi, staff condi, deadeye condi, p/p condi.

They almost always are complaining about the same build.

All of the other builds have access to the same traits and same utilities (if they choose, except for deadeye).

I submit that it is not any of the traits, or any of the utilities, or combo fields and dodges.

It is literally SWORD 2.

THAT is the problem.

Take away the immobilize of the sword 2.

That does TWO things to tone down this build.

1. They can no longer spam proc panic strike.
2. You can dodge follow up attacks or lotus daggers.

Thief Main Crab:

But what about power s/d?

They NEED immobilize for their kit to work!

Thief Hater Crab:

They do? Why?

Thief Main Crab:

Because you don't want them to easy kite your noodle damage, and also we get the same poison procs that reduce the healing, but it doesn't do as much damage, so no one really complains.

Thief Hater Crab:

Well, you could bring deadly ambition and get the poison applications from that, on top of your steal. Besides they are making changes to it to make it less powerful, but more frequent. That suits you.

Thief Main Crab:

Yeah, but I need the extra heal from mug, and plus there is a little damage. I can't sacrifice that.

Thief Hater Crab:

It seems like you are trying to get bonuses while skirting trade-offs. Maybe the should take away poison application from panic strike, or give it a cooldown of 10 seconds or more.

Thief Main Crab:

Bro, I said that is my poison, anti-heal, pressure source.

Thief Hater Crab:

You have the option to bring deadly ambition.

Thief Main Crab:

Ok...but, what about about P/D thieves?

Thief Hater Crab:

What about them?

Thief Main Crab:

They have body shot, which immobilizes foes. They kind of need the poison application from panic strike to boost the weapon. ALSO, they can't just port in and out spam like s/d thief. So it's a bit more reasonable.

Thief Hater Crab:

So it is sword 2?

Thief Main Crab:

NO! It's a L2P issues, you need to get gud.

Thief Hater Crab:

I don't really have an issue with other thief types, and you even pointed out yourself why you think panic strike is okay, and WHO should/could use it.

But, you really didn't acknowledge that power s/d doesn't need it.

If you want poison application, take deadly ambition and sacrifice mug.

This way we can take away poison from panic strike.

If you don't want that, then sword 2 needs the immobilized removed.

Because immobilizing skills need to be los-able.

Immobilize is an extemely powerful cc and spamming it with distance safety or from behind walls is degenerate play.

Thief Main Crab:

Well, how can reduce kiting on the s/d which doesn't hit that hard?

Thief Hater Crab:

I say change it to cripple.

Thief Main Crab:

Cripple? But we already got cripple!

Thief Hater Crab:

Then does it need anything to replace immobilize?

Because we can't give condi s/d any more cover condis, and you both got cripple.

Thief Main Crab:

Okay cripple, and if already crippled, blind too.

Random Forum User:

This Crab dude is literally having a conversation with himself.

Burnfall:

It is only after the complete removal of toxic thief can this game begin to heal.

/facepalm

[praqtos.9035]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:Random Forum User:This Crab dude is literally having a conversation with himself.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

@voltaicbore.8012 said:I initially had a hard time dealing with the recent resurgence of condi DD, but I adjusted by not being so committed to standing on point, and making sure to have some escape/cleanse cd's ready when I was running to where I either saw or predicted the DD to show up. The condi spam is annoying, but it's been manageable on the classes I've played so far.

In exchange for winning more fights, I've had to let the DD get a full decap on points more often. Ideally I'd like to be able to reclaim our ability to stand on point and fight off thieves, but I'll accept this status quo for now.

How many classes can you reliable fight while staying still in a small circle, anyways? That's not this game works, and it's not how it was planned, either.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

@rowdy.5107 said:people are crying because they cant just run through a d/d or s/d condi thief like they could aginst a d/p thief. now, they have to actually figure out how to fight the thief. and if they don't have the skills, build, patience to do it. they are gonna get wrecked. and when they get wrecked they come to the forums and complain.

This. People are mad they can't just OS thief and continue on a 5v4. Too used to spamming skills in a mindless rotation instead of actually stopping for 0.2 seconds to think.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

Random Forum User:

This Crab dude is literally having a conversation with himself.

May as well these days lol have u read the forums lately? Is this game worth it? Be honest how often are most of us even really playing still?

[dDuff.3860]

Instead of addressing the actual issue, which is condi application rate for condition daredevil, you try to address sword2 which is vital for both power/condi builds, and one of the few defensive abilities thief exploit.Adjust deadly ambition and if needed adjust scaling with condi damage on panic strike. Thats it.

Sword 2 been a reason for complaints since game launch, it was a pseudo stunbreak, as well as generally better skill.Condi s/d daredevil is a casual friendly build for newbs that don't want to put much effort into gameplay, It is handicapped in performance and weak to competent players.As I said, if you struggle against it, it is pretty much l2p. Unfun to play against — may be, overpowered — may be, overperforming — doubt so.

[Crab Fear.1624]

@dDuff.3860 said:Instead of addressing the actual issue, which is condi application rate for condition daredevil, you try to address sword2 which is vital for both power/condi builds, and one of the few defensive abilities thief exploit.Adjust deadly ambition and if needed adjust scaling with condi damage on panic strike. Thats it.

Sword 2 been a reason for complaints since game launch, it was a pseudo stunbreak, as well as generally better skill.Condi s/d daredevil is a casual friendly build for newbs that don't want to put much effort into gameplay, It is handicapped in performance and weak to competent players.As I said, if you struggle against it, it is pretty much l2p. Unfun to play against — may be, overpowered — may be, overperforming — doubt so.

Why is immobilize vital?

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@"dDuff.3860" said:If you have troubles fighting condi thieves and winning games, this is completely l2p issue.It can be brought down, but not for much just to make up for tears.

Thief players defend braindead builds, more news at 11. Not being able to cleanse 5 condis being immobilized 3-4 times is l2p issue, sure :joy:News at 11 a mirage player (of all classes ?) complaing about sw2.

Smells like a few logical fallacies

.Since you arent smartest thief main, let me educate you, sword2 does the same as CI did for condi mirage and claimed to be a degenerate build, condi daredevil does it at will and IT IS a degenere build. (you even said yourself about DA condi trait on top xD)Meanwhile mirages are stealth bursting people to 0 in a literal secIs that some kind of "whataboutism" ? I'm not really expert in logical fallacies tbh. But okay, thief easly does the same, how does it related to condi daredevil?

Fallacies? Ci mirage was doing same thing sw2 does? Was mantra of distraction not instantly dazing while ci imobilizes leaving opponent unable to do anything? I believe s/d builds using sword 2 just imobilizes so I donno ur not to smart I gues

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@dDuff.3860 said:Instead of addressing the actual issue, which is condi application rate for condition daredevil, you try to address sword2 which is vital for both power/condi builds, and one of the few defensive abilities thief exploit.Adjust deadly ambition and if needed adjust scaling with condi damage on panic strike. Thats it.

Sword 2 been a reason for complaints since game launch, it was a pseudo stunbreak, as well as generally better skill.Condi s/d daredevil is a casual friendly build for newbs that don't want to put much effort into gameplay, It is handicapped in performance and weak to competent players.As I said, if you struggle against it, it is pretty much l2p. Unfun to play against — may be, overpowered — may be, overperforming — doubt so.

Why is immobilize vital?

Because it acts as a defense when porting in close melee range being a squishy xlass/build. A 1 sec daze be better but prob be considered even stronger.

[praqtos.9035]

@dDuff.3860 said:Instead of addressing the actual issue, which is condi application rate for condition daredevil, you try to address sword2 which is vital for both power/condi builds, and one of the few defensive abilities thief exploit.But you are right, condi application is a problem, 5 condis every few seconds while immobilized shouldnt be a thing, a reason why CI was deleted entirely - immobilize, sword 2 is alrdy spammable teleport back and forth, immobilzie is an overkill on top of it.As I said, if you struggle against it, it is pretty much l2p. Unfun to play against — may be, overpowered — may be, overperforming — doubt so.You are pretty much being ridiculous, not being able to cleanse 5-6 conditions every few seconds isnt not l2p, its absurd

[sephiroth.4217]

@saerni.2584 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@saerni.2584 said:Could always make Sword 2’s first teleport require LoS...That too, I have a clip where I approach a point on skyhammer and drd behind the wall jump on me,kitten with tons of conditions and 17 poisions and teleport back, I'm ofc ded xDBut this doesnt fix the issue with the amount of condi application coming from an evade or passives... especially WEAKNESS, the condition nullify ability to fight back with power spec completely.

But have you tried running cleanse though?

Magnetic Aura share works too. Actually 1 Fire/Water cleansing aura share tempest with soldier runes is enough to cover the whole team and completely shut down a Condi thief.

[DoomNexus.5324]

Simple.

Just make power D/P daredevil at least somewhat viable again by unnerfing lead attack and giving Swipe at least 900 range or completely throw it off the board again and give em Steal back. You probably won't see any other thief build anymore. #MakeDPGreatAgain

Oh wait.. but then thief has access to stealth again right? Naa fuck it, thief could as well be just removed from the game, ppl will always complain no matter what.(btw I hate damaging conditions in general in sPvP, I'm 100% behind you guys, Anet should nerf the shit out of condi thief)

[Airdive.2613]

Is "Lotus training" not a burst of physical projectiles anymore?There used to be a lot of skills those daggers can be destroyed or reflected with.

[dDuff.3860]

@praqtos.9035 said:

@dDuff.3860 said:Instead of addressing the actual issue, which is condi application rate for condition daredevil, you try to address sword2 which is vital for both power/condi builds, and one of the few defensive abilities thief exploit.But you are right, condi application is a problem, 5 condis every few seconds while immobilized shouldnt be a thing, a reason why CI was deleted entirely - immobilize, sword 2 is alrdy spammable teleport back and forth, immobilzie is an overkill on top of it.As I said, if you struggle against it, it is pretty much l2p. Unfun to play against — may be, overpowered — may be, overperforming — doubt so.You are pretty much being ridiculous, not being able to cleanse 5-6 conditions every few seconds isnt not l2p, its absurd

Spammable = 5 initiative, + huge aftercasts where you nor evading, nor hard CCing.5 initiative = 1/3 of shared cooldown ability pool. WOOOO SPAMMABLE!