Iboga Hallucinations: A plant got a better mechanic than the entire Mirage spec

[Alpha.1308]

i remember in Guild Wars 1, fighting Iboga when Nightfall came out, and i always thought it was really cool to see these plant like creatures being mesmers and casting illusion magic skills, mesmer being my favorite class from the original, i really liked the theme

now, we get to fight Iboga in Guild Wars 2 again

lo and behold, there are no hexes in Guild Wars 2

so what do they do?

THEYCREATEFLOOPINHALLUCINATIONSYOU KNOWNON-TARGETABLE CREATURES THAT CAN'T BE STOPPED BY CC

HOW IS THIS NOT WHAT MIRAGE GOT?!?!

i'm literally flabbergasted at how they didn't decide to give the MIRAGE "hallucinations"but instead a mirror mechanic that everyone hated since last expansion with rev and guardian pick ups

this would solve core mesmer issues being tied to a creature mechanic that's such a huge liability, and then also give us a really cool mechanic that could have been expanded uponalong with still probably being able to blend in with base mesmer lines with some sort of basis to go off ofyou knowinstead of how they saw "kaleidoscope" and some dev thought

"LOL MIRRORS LET'S DROP MIRRORS EVERYWHERE THAT PLAYERS SAID THEY HATED LAST EXPANSION SO THEY HAVE TO RUN AND PICK THEM UP"

what a jokea freaking plant got a better mechanic than us in this expansion

[bart.3687]

@Alpha.1308 said:i remember in Guild Wars 1, fighting Iboga when Nightfall came out, and i always thought it was really cool to see these plant like creatures being mesmers and casting illusion magic skills, mesmer being my favorite class from the original, i really liked the theme

now, we get to fight Iboga in Guild Wars 2 again

lo and behold, there are no hexes in Guild Wars 2

so what do they do?

THEYCREATEFLOOPINHALLUCINATIONSYOU KNOWNON-TARGETABLE CREATURES THAT CAN'T BE STOPPED BY CC

HOW IS THIS NOT WHAT MIRAGE GOT?!?!

i'm literally flabbergasted at how they didn't decide to give the MIRAGE "hallucinations"but instead a mirror mechanic that everyone hated since last expansion with rev and guardian pick ups

this would solve core mesmer issues being tied to a creature mechanic that's such a huge liability, and then also give us a really cool mechanic that could have been expanded uponalong with still probably being able to blend in with base mesmer lines with some sort of basis to go off ofyou knowinstead of how they saw "kaleidoscope" and some dev thought

"LOL MIRRORS LET'S DROP MIRRORS EVERYWHERE THAT PLAYERS SAID THEY HATED LAST EXPANSION SO THEY HAVE TO RUN AND PICK THEM UP"

what a jokea freaking plant got a better mechanic than us in this expansion

Anything would be better than mirrors and current ambushes.It's kinda sad that they care more to give interesting mechanics to mobs than to mesmers, though.

[etsubmariner.4690]

I agree that they got a better visual. Those are pretty freaking amazing.

[Llethander.3972]

Your comment about the fact that "hallucinations cannot be stopped by CC" confuses me. I have yet to notice the Iboga hallucinations do anything but provide a neat visual effect, unlike the Toxic events in Core Tyria where they are actually entities that can be targeted and killed.

It's not the first time we've seen hallucinations but this time around, at least to me, it seems to be nothing more than a spiffy visual effect.

[Carighan.6758]

The hallucinations are something which was used extensively in LS1, too.

And I agree, something like that ought to be a staple Mesmer mechanic, maybe even the core of the class. For one, "fields" of hallucinations (not a debuff on enemies) would work well in WvW, because spam-cleansing cannot fix it and they'd confuse people running as a zerg, maybe going as far as showing them virtual enemy players running away etc, damage fields underneath them which aren't there, these things. Second, our clones/phantasms could be just another type of this, basically what happens if we use them in PvE. Hallucinations which can cause actual damage, but are frail and slow to summon up in return. Difficult to use in PvP as a result of that, but in PvE they make our side stronger.

As always, NPCs have much better Mesmer skills (same goes for a bunch of other classes) than the actual Mesmer class. :disappointed:

[Dondagora.9645]

Perhaps make hallucinations be illusions instanced to the individual enemies, so nobody else can deal with them, and it'd just look like an enemy is fighting nothing. They'd defeatable, but not by AoE or damage other than from the intended target.

[Allarius.5670]

@Dondagora.9645 said:Perhaps make hallucinations be illusions instanced to the individual enemies, so nobody else can deal with them, and it'd just look like an enemy is fighting nothing. They'd defeatable, but not by AoE or damage other than from the intended target.

I've been thinking of an elite spec idea that does just that! I think that would be a good place for it.

[Curunen.8729]

Next elite spec really ought to be dream/nightmare related with this kind of hallucination and similar mechanics.

[bart.3687]

@Curunen.8729 said:Next elite spec really ought to be dream/nightmare related with this kind of hallucination and similar mechanics.

+1 this. I'd really like mesmer's next elite to be darker/nightmarish/witchy (Skyforge's witch anyone? I love this class' aesthetics and I hope for some mesmer spec with kinda similar theme)

[Alpha.1308]

@Llethander.3972 said:Your comment about the fact that "hallucinations cannot be stopped by CC" confuses me. I have yet to notice the Iboga hallucinations do anything but provide a neat visual effect, unlike the Toxic events in Core Tyria where they are actually entities that can be targeted and killed.

It's not the first time we've seen hallucinations but this time around, at least to me, it seems to be nothing more than a spiffy visual effect.

the bird Iboga can summon?the worm?can you target those?can you put up a line of warding to stop them?how does that confuse you

and, i know they were around before, but i forgot about it up until i literally faced one as a "MIRAGE"

i get that they're not very "good" from the iboga, but my point was the general idea around the hallucinations should have been aimed toward Mirage

clearly it already exists that they can implement itit's just the guardian spirit weapons, but, like, with the illusion mechanicor even drop the illusion mechanic, just give mesmers a way to play without clunky AI

sure, copy/pasta the Iboga skills does not equal a better mirage, but my point was that, why is there already this mechanic, but not given to the class that horrifyingly needs it to stop having to rely on a liability such as a creature for a class mechanic?

it would have fit the theme so much better to have hallucinations from a mirage than "lol mirrors on the ground have fun running around picking them up so after they shatter you can briefly avoid attacks that you already got hit by"

it would look and feel better, and actually be possible to make competitive to not have to rely on AI

the casual nonsense needs to stop"oh wow i like mirage it's pretty and the mirrors are funny hurr durr"k well nobody in any real content cares about this though and this is physically hindering the class

[Photoloss.4817]

@Alpha.1308 said:i get that they're not very "good" from the iboga, but my point was the general idea around the hallucinations should have been aimed toward Mirage

clearly it already exists that they can implement it

As far as i can tell the "hallucinations" have three components, none of which would be desirable:

• Actual AI summons. These can be targeted, killed and deal (minor) damage. Basically clones only they look like Ettin, eugh.
• Intangible creatures. Not targetable, but also don't have any effect on gameplay (besides lowering your framerate on potato computers). Don't seem to be instanced either, I've seen wurms pop up under other players while not affected by the debuff myself. Would devolve into fancy AoE visuals.
• Interface screw. No effect on AI enemies in PvE. Disorienting but no tangible in-game effect on player characters either. Completely bypassed by disabling postprocessing which is why I don't even know whether this is still a thing on the Iboga version, I don't see the rainbow mess in the Nightmare fractal either.

So basically the "hallucination" status is merely visual fluff and the only real way they can set apart AI illusions from all regular "real" mobs which are already considered expendable trash.

[ZhouX.8742]

@Alpha.1308 said:i remember in Guild Wars 1, fighting Iboga when Nightfall came out, and i always thought it was really cool to see these plant like creatures being mesmers and casting illusion magic skills, mesmer being my favorite class from the original, i really liked the theme

now, we get to fight Iboga in Guild Wars 2 again

lo and behold, there are no hexes in Guild Wars 2

so what do they do?

THEYCREATEFLOOPINHALLUCINATIONSYOU KNOWNON-TARGETABLE CREATURES THAT CAN'T BE STOPPED BY CC

HOW IS THIS NOT WHAT MIRAGE GOT?!?!

i'm literally flabbergasted at how they didn't decide to give the MIRAGE "hallucinations"but instead a mirror mechanic that everyone hated since last expansion with rev and guardian pick ups

this would solve core mesmer issues being tied to a creature mechanic that's such a huge liability, and then also give us a really cool mechanic that could have been expanded uponalong with still probably being able to blend in with base mesmer lines with some sort of basis to go off ofyou knowinstead of how they saw "kaleidoscope" and some dev thought

"LOL MIRRORS LET'S DROP MIRRORS EVERYWHERE THAT PLAYERS SAID THEY HATED LAST EXPANSION SO THEY HAVE TO RUN AND PICK THEM UP"

what a jokea freaking plant got a better mechanic than us in this expansion

Mirage is good in pvp , only thing that puts chrono over it is the moa but if you dont land moa , mirage is instantly better. This is at the top level in PvP though.

[Llethander.3972]

@Alpha.1308 said:

@Llethander.3972 said:Your comment about the fact that "hallucinations cannot be stopped by CC" confuses me. I have yet to notice the Iboga hallucinations do anything but provide a neat visual effect, unlike the Toxic events in Core Tyria where they are actually entities that can be targeted and killed.

It's not the first time we've seen hallucinations but this time around, at least to me, it seems to be nothing more than a spiffy visual effect.

the bird Iboga can summon?the worm?can you target those?can you put up a line of warding to stop them?how does that confuse you

and, i know they were around before, but i forgot about it up until i literally faced one as a "MIRAGE"

i get that they're not very "good" from the iboga, but my point was the general idea around the hallucinations should have been aimed toward Mirage

clearly it already exists that they can implement itit's just the guardian spirit weapons, but, like, with the illusion mechanicor even drop the illusion mechanic, just give mesmers a way to play without clunky AI

sure, copy/pasta the Iboga skills does not equal a better mirage, but my point was that, why is there already this mechanic, but not given to the class that horrifyingly needs it to stop having to rely on a liability such as a creature for a class mechanic?

it would have fit the theme so much better to have hallucinations from a mirage than "lol mirrors on the ground have fun running around picking them up so after they shatter you can briefly avoid attacks that you already got hit by"

it would look and feel better, and actually be possible to make competitive to not have to rely on AI

the casual nonsense needs to stop"oh wow i like mirage it's pretty and the mirrors are funny hurr durr"k well nobody in any real content cares about this though and this is physically hindering the class

As I said, I haven't noticed those actually do anything. Any time I fight an Iboga and the shadowy images start to appear they don't seem to do anything to me. I'll pay more attention the next time I fight some and check my damage logs to see if they do, in fact, do anything but, as of this point in time, I find the hallucinations completely ignorable.

Edit: I just tested it. The bird, the worm, the spiders... none of them do anything to you. They just kinda look neat.

https://image.ibb.co/cCrgow/gw171.jpghttps://image.ibb.co/gHDu8w/gw172.jpg <- Spidershttps://image.ibb.co/md131G/gw173.jpg < - Birdhttps://image.ibb.co/j9aKab/gw174.jpg <- Worm

[Carighan.6758]

Which is perfect. That's exactly the mechanic Mesmer (and by extension Mirage) needs. Both in a player-targeted and in an area version.

[Photoloss.4817]

@Carighan.6758 said:Which is perfect. That's exactly the mechanic Mesmer (and by extension Mirage) needs. Both in a player-targeted and in an area version.

No. Hallucination is completely and absolutely useless in all of PvE because AI does not have a screen to mess with, and probably wouldn't work in WvW zerg fights either with all the effects already flying from regular combat.

[Alpha.1308]

ok, but........i don't care about how CURRENT hallucinations work?like helloi mentioned that in a previous postthat wasn't the initial point

why are you off on the wrong part of the subject?i like how only one person had a good argument to combat the massive issues with the spec, and that was how Mirage is actually really good in spvpbut you know, literally nothing elsebut the fact is, did we really NEED an entire elite spec for spvp, for a class that ALREADY functioned well in spvp?especs where supposed to ADD something NEW to the base class, this didn't at all, just gave us a core mesmer line with a flashy dodge that's actually harmful

sure, i mistook the hallucinations for dealing damage and having effects during the animation, wahh wahh i can't believe someone got something wrong on the internet

point being, why were we the only class to not get a class mechanic change and still stuck with creatures for a mechanic

you guys are acting like you're happy for accepting a trash can

like, it has NOTHING to do with the fact that THE CURRENT HALLUCINATIONS DO NOTHINGi said specifically they were bad in a previous post, sure, i didn't know they did absolutely nothing, at first i THOUGHT they did somethingwoopie sorry sorry sorry apologies sorry

so you know what they can do as a balance team?they can MAKE THEM do somethingthat's how balance updates worki said they can't just copy/paste the current design onto mesmers and suddenly voila better mirage

do you not understand how things get CHANGED over the course of a balance update to actually work?

oh, rightprobably notbecause we're mesmers who now have Well of Precognition in its current form

i understand where you people are coming from with this argument that hallucinations do nothing currently, but it just wasn't the real part of the problem, sorry for not clarifying that

[Photoloss.4817]

@Alpha.1308 said:i understand where you people are coming from with this argument that hallucinations do nothing currently, but it just wasn't the real part of the problem, sorry for not clarifying that

You based your post around Iboga hallucinations. Not only did I correct your misconceptions about those, I also gave a reason why they aren't a viable mesmer mechanic: the targetable ones are what we already have, untargetable equivalents would just be fancy AoE graphics (and possibly broken in PvP) if they actually did anything, and the rest is visual fluff which has absolutely no effect on AI enemies.

I am not happy with Mirage, far from it in fact, but what little I can grasp from your suggestion would make it even more PvP-centric without adding any components that actually change how you play.

Directional blink on dodge, ambushes that actually hurt like the thief stealth skills they're supposedly inspired by, a super-clone that mimics your attacks and movements, replacing shatters with mirror objects/AoEs for various deceptive effects, a third dodge roll, replacing phantasms with 1-off clone spwaning skills and the list goes on. There are plenty of fun and interesting mechanics they could have implemented on Mirage but they failed at everything except pretty graphics.

[Alpha.1308]

i didbut only the base theme of itnot "here let's copy/paste the exact mechanic"i said that multiple timesbut ok

"misconceptions" about what it actually does, ignoring what i actually meant by what it would have done had they actually made it into a class mechanic, so it wouldn't function like it does on the ibogajust the theme of iti accepted and agreed that i made a mistake and didn't realize that they did nothing, but that doesn't change the fact that it can't be something similar without being useless

"pvp centric" even though i said remove AI and destructible creature mechanic on illusions for those that deal damage sort of like guardian spirit weaponsokin pve where literally nobody likes to spend all their time trying to get 3 phantasms out and auto attack and use one or two skills on their entire bar to finally have some form of viabilityok

i'm saying we need to ditch the illusion/shattering mechanic for more mesmer damage instead of phantasm/clone damagehow would that not "add any components" that changes how you play?

again, i see where the confusion happened and apparently still is happeningyou're just not looking at it in a way that they can change it to not being "completely useless"i dunno how to make it any clearer that i'm not talking about "let's just add visual flufff and make them do nothing"i literally said over and over that they can MAKE THEM DO THINGS

but what ever, i obviously don't disagree with you that mirage is garbage and that's what this post was about anyway

tldr about the entire mirage spec:we need to get rid of the trash-tier mirrors and dodge that puts us in bad spots for stuff that actually works in a real environment

why oh why do the devs choose to ignore how bad this is, it's not like we didn't tell them in the beta weekend thing that the mirrors were a stupid mechanic that nobody enjoyed on guardian/revi really want to know how things like this get past any of the internal testersdo they actually just only test things on target golems in the spvp map?cheeseus

[Photoloss.4817]

@Alpha.1308 said:i really want to know how things like this get past any of the internal testersdo they actually just only test things on target golems in the spvp map?

Clearly they do not, otherwise said testers would have reported Crystal Sands failing to hit even half its projectiles and incessantly complained about being flung off the edge into a shapeless void XD

I still don't understand what your actual gameplay-relevant suggestions are, the best approximation I can get is how e.g. Ventari's tablet acts as a non-targetable remote object. That could be cool for an elite spec but I'm totally not on board with all those "rework illusions" efforts, I actually like the general "resource management" playstyle of managing semi-expendable companions and just wish for more complexity in actually managing them. For example a stacking 10s boost of +25% damage for each phantasm shattered instead of Phantasmal Force and more interesting effects with higher damage on the actual summon skills. If they buffed condi application via shatters Mirage could run a fairly interesting rotation but that currently fails to hit 30k dps.

[Alpha.1308]

CLEARLYLIKE HOW DOES THAT SKILL EVEN EXIST

and, sort of, more like guardian's spirit weapons in place of phantasms and clones, dealing moderate damage each, rather than one being strong and one weak, then get rid of the entire shatter bar for new f skills, like how every class got this expansion

scourge literally got rid of necro shroud, was that something anyone would ever expect?

imagine what mesmer could have instead of shatters............????????????like hello, this class is SO UNIQUE it's not even funny, the possibilities are endless, but they missed the mark so hard

my "gameplay relevant suggestion" was just wanting to give mesmers more damage/utility that isn't backloaded into creatures that can be destroyed, blinded, knocked down, etc

sort of from a wvw bias, even though it's the least cared about game mode for the dev team and probably most players see it as a joke, me and my guild still enjoy training large groups, organized gvg, etc, but obviously it'd help pve where a lot of players hate trying to do content with fast dying mobs, or target swapping boss mechanics, and even on long boss fights, it's excruciatingly boring to sit there with 3 phantasms and auto attack without pressing anything else on your bar in fear of creating an illusion that overwrites your damage from phantasms(hello, you can't even dodge with mirage on sword without creating a clone or not attacking????? that is so counter-intuitive for a "keep casting while dodging" quote unquote "mechanic" how is has this not been fixed yet)

that's fine that you enjoy the "companions" and "resource management" i did too when the game came out, i love how mesmer felt, but the whole idea of elite specs that they specifically told us was how they wanted to have them "add something new" to the class, which is what every e-spec so far has given, minus a few oddballs, but mirage isn't just an "oddball", it's a complete mess, along with the core class being reliant on creatures, it's a mechanic that many mesmers just don't enjoy

sure, i liked it when the game first came out, but now that i'm doing harder content and fighting people in pvp who actually know how to play, shattering an illusion and watching it get blown away and do nothing is really disheartening

spellbreaker is literally GW1 mesmer, but they went and gave it to a warrior, it's extremely disruptive and the denial and boon hate is literally what GW1 mesmer was all aboutof course, we also probably didn't need another interruption line, either, seeing as how we have dom/chaos/chrono (slow)but, still

mesmer is no better than a ranger from guild wars 1, who just loaded their bar with beast mastery skillssure, you can auto attack for some damage, maybe splash some utility skills here and there but all of your damage is coming from a liability in the form of a creature

chrono was so bizarre and was actually such an improvement from base mesmer, and gave them an insane support line, WHILE still giving core mesmer fluff (shatters, chronophantasma), but even that got nerfed pretty hard(which, is honestly understandable, because lolwellofprecognition and perma alacrity/quickness to a group)

but that's what e-specs were supposed to do, add a line the base class didn't have access to, not only was it support, but it still supplemented core mesmer mechanicsthat was amazingly good and well-done for what they told us e-specs were going to be

but they just really dropped the ball on mirage, both in actual effectiveness and mechanically wise, it's just a core mesmer trait line, without adding anything different. and barely even a good one, at that, again, someone mentioned mirage is good for spvp, but, yet again, core and chrono were already good there, they absolutely did not need that bonus, no matter how "fun" or "good" it is thereif mirage didn't exist in the first place, you would have never wanted "more" dueling lines for spvp, would you?it's more something that now people are getting comfortable with, and trying to defend it simply because they already have it

[Lunalight.8120]

Imo it's the same with the sneak gyro. A summon that hides you until it's killed. Something like that should've been the mirage elite skill.But nevermind, here take these 5 teleportskills, thats mesmery and "confusing" right?

[Alpha.1308]

seriously....... 2 utilities that shadowstep you, your elite with 3 more shadowsteps, and then one more utility that........ evades you backwards..... in which case, here's a mirror at your starting position, even though that's what you were trying to leave, here run back into it because you might be invuln for the damage therelike???????

[FaboBabo.3581]

@Alpha.1308 said:seriously....... 2 utilities that shadowstep you, your elite with 3 more shadowsteps, and then one more utility that........ evades you backwards..... in which case, here's a mirror at your starting position, even though that's what you were trying to leave, here run back into it because you might be invuln for the damage therelike???????

and i love it, except sand through glass. In wvw for example i beat scourges and Spellbreakers 1v1. Those are the "OPOPOPOPOP"- classes btw. Ppl still dont want to see in which scenario mirage shines.It's duelling.

"But mesmer was a duelist before, no new playstyle -> mirage sucks"Well despite what the devs say ; "specialization" means going deep into one aspect...

and while, mesmer had blink sword 3 etc, the amount of COMBAT mobility is unmatched on Mirage.

[Ithilwen.1529]

In point of fact, they are named "Mirage Iboga" in GW1 Elona.

[musu.9205]

@FaboBabo.3581 said:

@Alpha.1308 said:seriously....... 2 utilities that shadowstep you, your elite with 3 more shadowsteps, and then one more utility that........ evades you backwards..... in which case, here's a mirror at your starting position, even though that's what you were trying to leave, here run back into it because you might be invuln for the damage therelike???????

and i love it, except sand through glass. In wvw for example i beat scourges and Spellbreakers 1v1. Those are the "OPOPOPOPOP"- classes btw. Ppl still dont want to see in which scenario mirage shines.It's duelling.

"But mesmer was a duelist before, no new playstyle -> mirage sucks"Well despite what the devs say ; "specialization" means going deep into one aspect...

and while, mesmer had blink sword 3 etc, the amount of COMBAT mobility is unmatched on Mirage.you might want to check DD or spellbreaker with gs , unmatched lolboth bring more to team than mirage which isn't really good at 1v1 scourge , sb , dh , rev , and cant kill tempest , scrapper , druid if player are same skill level. less potential for +1 than DD . also its much easier to be killed than chrono .if by going deep you mean lowest tier for pvp , yeah . surethe entire utilities set are bad period in any given situation unless they reduce some cast time and buff elite range.