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For the Love of God, Delete Mesmer Mantras!

shadowpass.4236

By shadowpass.4236
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viquing.8254

viquing.8254

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"shadowpass.4236" immagine whinging about mesmer sword auto chain as a RANGER main, while this exists

P.S thats from TODAY only :D

Not sure if it was a good idea to pump this nonsense thread once again to talk to a banned player known for being unreasonable und deconstructive to show him once again that he is not right or just hypocrite with most he says... but whatever.

Did you watch mATs in EU? Misha was playing Core PU Mesmer but he ran it without Mantra of Distraction, what i have seen before a lot in EU. It makes sense because of the reasons i mentioned already: Mantra of Distraction is not needed for the oneshot. Everything Mantra of Distraction adds to the combo you get form f3, just that f3 stuns in addition and not only daze. And this build is meant to just hit the burts and then run (maybe cast some phantasm as follow up pressure before), using an additional stealth skill (gives additional boons, another stunbreak and disengage tool) instead Mantra of Distraction makes much more sense in particular when you run vs decent teams know what to focus, means the Mesmer cannot freecast all time and recharge 5 seconds for free. Also recharging 2 Mantras instead of only one all the time is a lot of downtime the Mesmer can't rly do something else and need to cover like 5 secs of recharge makes him very vulnerable or makes him need to cover it with other defensive cds. Something i always tried to tell OP about the nature of Mantras and why they have lower cds because of the downside/ high costs of such a long recharge.

For Mantra of Pain i think like 99% of the ppl and Mesmer mains in this forum agree, that it is a stupid mechanic to have such high dmg on an instant max range skill without any cds inbetween recharge and inbetween uses even adding vulnerability- and mightstacks. Still it is only a secondary problem on this build, because it can oneshot the same builds also without Mantra of Pain. But it makes sense to use for more pressure vs bunker builds and for more constant (sustained) dmg. Mantra of Pain needs a rework because it is like PU an unheathy mechanic in general. But at least it needs nerfs in the vulnerability stacks, mightstacks and some cds (in my opinion, i know you disagree Viquing, but i am not talking to you here so no need to restart our dispute). I prefer a rework instead a nerf, rework into something not unhealth but still useful (just like for PU). Maybe replace the dmg part with chill? Mesmers don't need other dead traits/skills like EM, a broken mechanic nerfed to death not get used at all. EM would be much better without stunbreak on dodge and without the punish-debuff and for that 2 instead 1 conditions removed or something like that. It would have more uses already than it has atm. But before Viquing incs on me again, yes most meta builds have also or even more balance issues than a Core PU Mesmer using Mantra of Pain and these are discussed in the complain threads for these classes and should not justify overperforming or unhealthy mechanics on Mesmer.

I was waiting for the mAt core mes :DYeah no MoD.Sincerely there are way too much period of time where he can't do anything.Ok he can survive but it didn't matter when all your team is dead while you are hidding in stealth.Ok he can do some 80%hp burst but if you look details, once opponents get one shotted once, it was way harder for him to output his burst. Not to say the very low impact in teamfight.In his last game (high level) he does like 3 really usefull bursts (which an other similar class can't do while having more pressure) in a full game which is very low talking about game impact.That said about your suggestions (ofc I will go on because you didn't seems to understand the pro/cons of what you propose.) :With your nerf suggestion to MoP : welcome to one more dead utility because it will not worth it. Before the "up" of might/damage/vulenrability, MoP was used only for 1) heal spam with trait and 2) armor spam with trait. Armor spam is gone and heal spam isn't viable so if you take this skill as his previous state, it will just add to the list of unused skills.Personnaly I will increase the might duration and give it a 24 sec CD so it does what it should do : a on demand spike but not anymore spammable.Or make it a boon removal aoe mantra.But the only thing mantra core mes bring on the table is the high burst, I don't think reducing the spike or the stealth burst window will make core mes more playable.

Boon removal aoe Mantra sounds pretty good to me, if Anet can't balance out the stupid amount of boonaccess on Meta builds than give Mesmers something unique back only they can do that good and with high amount. That is not broken even more would be a nice counter to a broken boonspam state and would give Mesmer some identity back after nerfing most of its useful and skillful utilities like Portal. Very good idea in my view!

coughs

Edit: Obviously don't take the numbers as being gospel, it's nearly a year old but the idea of it manipulating boons on foes is what I'd like to see. You know, almost as if this is some kind of mesmer like thing.

Sry i barely read class subforums. The idea of boon removal Mantra is great, no matter who was the first had it. Kudos to you then. And yes it fits perfect into Mesmer theme. Why wasn't it created like that in the first place? The idea of high instant max range dmg spammable (no real cds inbetween uses, no need to interrupt or whatever you have to care for at least, nothing...) was bad right from the start. Anet pls do your first good rework without just killing something with nerf to death mentality. These are the kind of senseful changes/ reworks i like to see for stuff i complain about. Any good idea for PU if we are on it? Removing the stealth duration increase was the only thing we could agree until now but it needs some form of compensation. Or we have a better idea how to change the trait into something completely different but still useful.

PU specifically? Not really because the problem isn't necessarily PU. Changing PU isn't easy, it's hard to keep the defensive theme of the line and couple it with stealth. If you decouple the trait from stealth then you have to find something else to activate the trait that fits with the line and purpose where nothing really comes to mind without bloating already overloaded aspects of the class.

To me your problem is mostly stealth stacking and a little bit the long duration of Mass Invis with PU. The problems you have with oneshot mesmer can easily happen on any other class if/when it gets access to smoke fields or any decent stealth duration. We all remember druid being completely busted in the opposite way where it could reset in stealth over and over and never really die because it could easily get 6-9s of stealth, same with original stealth gyro and scrapper.

An idea is to finally address stealth and prevent it stacking so people cannot get 6-20s of stealth, maybe adding forced reveal which would certainly prevent problems in the future for other classes however it in many ways screws over mesmer and thief which are balanced around stealth at their core. Many people would praise ANet and call it a great change, enjoying these classes being much reduced in effectiveness unless you played those 2 classes where you're going to hate it for a long time especially in WvW. You would also have to go through quite a lot of skills in the game and rebalance the duration to be longer while making smoke fields and their associated kits worse in the meta where they may not be strong at all.

Why do I mention it? They would likely have to buff stealth duration for these two classes specifically or reduce cool downs which may not actually help. For mesmer it's fairly easy as much of it's stealth is through skills so you can simply change to 4s or 5s stealth and remove duration from PU making PU simply give protection, swiftness and resistance in stealth. Thief though, they use combo fields and forcing them into SA to be functional is really horrible, you also can't buff combo fields baseline because other classes would get stronger. You could technically make all first minor traits for thief give +1s stealth which would solve the problem but it's a very inelegant solution to say the least.

So you see it's not really an easy solution for what YOU don't like, it may not actually "fix" anything while being detrimental to the whole +1 burst playstyle of thief and mesmer as it's hard to realise the wide spread implications of such a fundamental change to core mechanics.

How about the idea to make dmg multiplier get disabled (or simply a straight overall dmg reduction down to 30% or something, or just both to be sure rofl) starting after 3 secs of stealth? Means you still can stack stealth for defensive purpose and repositioning but not to oneshot someone without any tell with stacked stealth out of ear shot and visible range and can't bait out more than one dodge or one defensive cd each stealth use. The debuff or however it will be designed will stop after 1 secs the player left stealth, so that all follow up casts will not be affected (like a berserker cast after the oneshot try) but only the skills part of the oneshot combo?

This would kill the surprise aspect of any +1 making thief and mesmer having no real advantage to something like rev which has a good alpha but better follow up damage and the same would apply to any other class with a +1 build. They wouldn't ever engage in stealth any more which while you and many others might like it, it's dumbing the game down yet again as you no longer require any map awareness at all which if I remember correctly you're very much against.

There's nothing wrong with an engage in stealth as long as the duration isn't stupid like 10s+ and that there's a cost associated with it. For mesmer it's cool down, cast and not having an escape if you use it too much. For thief it's a lack of initiative and so limited follow up skill use after the +1 or again cool down use which is usually their defences, just like how mesmers build for +1.

also, if im not mistaken thief, has to spend some time blasting/jumping through the aoe to get the stealth, it also costs time, initiative ( so you can inf arow around )you arrive in stealth, but you take longer, MUCH longer. how often is it better to spend extra 10s to be stealth to +1, and how often is it just better to run in and spend that extra 10s applying pressure.

True that is why i don't have a problem with a d/p Thief, just as i have no problem with a oneshot Mesmer (no matter what spec) not having PU. But a PU Core Mesmer just has everyhting too much, good mobility, doesn't need to stack stealth on spot (can stack during running), still has oneshot dmg even with taking a defensive traitline, then when failing often still has blink or another stealth rdy to disengage easy or bait out another stupid amount of defensive skills. I mean yes in coordinated teams with good focus and communication you can counter that, but aside from these situations it is just annoying to fight and the skill lvl - reward relation is not balanced. Even i can play a Core PU Powermesmer and i normally suck hard on any other Powermesmer build.

Hmm "everything" mean a burst every 12 to 18 sec. Contrary to what you think PU didn't give "everything".Carefull with your words, it's hasn't good condiclear, it hasn't good map mobility, it hasn't good healing sustain, it has only 1 sec stun every 18 sec as hard CC (target can still evade during MoD.) to properly burst, and most importantly : it hasn't good dps (out of burst pressure.).I mean talking about "everything" I can easily prove how meta classe have more of everything.Mantra core mesmer has
stealth
and
burst
, that's all and they are linked. If you want to nerf one of the two thing it has but don't provide other thing it will just die while not even being meta.Less burst mean stealth isn't worth it, less stealth mean less effective burst.

I meant more of everything than a good roaming +1 build needs.If you all don't like the stealth dmg debuff then all i can imagine is delete the stealthduration from PU but increase boonduration as compensation?The problem with your stealth debuff is that <3sec stealth is highly predictable : who get hit by torch burn anymore ? Once you get the timing, it's ok, it never hit. And with 30% less flat damage it will never make someone under 50% (even now in mAt it can only 80-90% targets.), which is bad for a 12 sec CD burst ina build who does only that.Remember that mesmer hasn't thief hit&run gameplay were he can go in fight and back easily thief can have use on <3sec stealth because he has many gapcloser.Mesmer can only mirage sword ambush or stealth to reach his target and kite. (in a direct damage build ofc, on condi it has staff to kite.)

What I will found fine is, for example, get rid of the stealth duration bonus, make it clear 1 condi when entering stealth and give 2 sec resistance everytime at stealth end/reveal. With a 2 sec resistance at then end of stealth, you are basically less vulnerable to random weakness on auto/aoe and can output more pressure during off stealth (while also begin less hard countered by some heavy condi builds.). This is real counterpart which will allow PU mes to be more predictable while having more in fight viability.

wait, did someone actually use this kitten in mat? LOL is there a link to watch?

With no mantra of distraction and they lose the semi yeah : https://www.twitch.tv/videos/496786812?t=03h13m30sBut this game really highligh what can happend in high level and show the limitations of this kind of builds, particulary the moment were all his team is dead and the mes is alive in stealth.

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Leonidrex.5649

Leonidrex.5649

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@viquing.8254 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"shadowpass.4236" immagine whinging about mesmer sword auto chain as a RANGER main, while this exists

P.S thats from TODAY only :D

Not sure if it was a good idea to pump this nonsense thread once again to talk to a banned player known for being unreasonable und deconstructive to show him once again that he is not right or just hypocrite with most he says... but whatever.

Did you watch mATs in EU? Misha was playing Core PU Mesmer but he ran it without Mantra of Distraction, what i have seen before a lot in EU. It makes sense because of the reasons i mentioned already: Mantra of Distraction is not needed for the oneshot. Everything Mantra of Distraction adds to the combo you get form f3, just that f3 stuns in addition and not only daze. And this build is meant to just hit the burts and then run (maybe cast some phantasm as follow up pressure before), using an additional stealth skill (gives additional boons, another stunbreak and disengage tool) instead Mantra of Distraction makes much more sense in particular when you run vs decent teams know what to focus, means the Mesmer cannot freecast all time and recharge 5 seconds for free. Also recharging 2 Mantras instead of only one all the time is a lot of downtime the Mesmer can't rly do something else and need to cover like 5 secs of recharge makes him very vulnerable or makes him need to cover it with other defensive cds. Something i always tried to tell OP about the nature of Mantras and why they have lower cds because of the downside/ high costs of such a long recharge.

For Mantra of Pain i think like 99% of the ppl and Mesmer mains in this forum agree, that it is a stupid mechanic to have such high dmg on an instant max range skill without any cds inbetween recharge and inbetween uses even adding vulnerability- and mightstacks. Still it is only a secondary problem on this build, because it can oneshot the same builds also without Mantra of Pain. But it makes sense to use for more pressure vs bunker builds and for more constant (sustained) dmg. Mantra of Pain needs a rework because it is like PU an unheathy mechanic in general. But at least it needs nerfs in the vulnerability stacks, mightstacks and some cds (in my opinion, i know you disagree Viquing, but i am not talking to you here so no need to restart our dispute). I prefer a rework instead a nerf, rework into something not unhealth but still useful (just like for PU). Maybe replace the dmg part with chill? Mesmers don't need other dead traits/skills like EM, a broken mechanic nerfed to death not get used at all. EM would be much better without stunbreak on dodge and without the punish-debuff and for that 2 instead 1 conditions removed or something like that. It would have more uses already than it has atm. But before Viquing incs on me again, yes most meta builds have also or even more balance issues than a Core PU Mesmer using Mantra of Pain and these are discussed in the complain threads for these classes and should not justify overperforming or unhealthy mechanics on Mesmer.

I was waiting for the mAt core mes :DYeah no MoD.Sincerely there are way too much period of time where he can't do anything.Ok he can survive but it didn't matter when all your team is dead while you are hidding in stealth.Ok he can do some 80%hp burst but if you look details, once opponents get one shotted once, it was way harder for him to output his burst. Not to say the very low impact in teamfight.In his last game (high level) he does like 3 really usefull bursts (which an other similar class can't do while having more pressure) in a full game which is very low talking about game impact.That said about your suggestions (ofc I will go on because you didn't seems to understand the pro/cons of what you propose.) :With your nerf suggestion to MoP : welcome to one more dead utility because it will not worth it. Before the "up" of might/damage/vulenrability, MoP was used only for 1) heal spam with trait and 2) armor spam with trait. Armor spam is gone and heal spam isn't viable so if you take this skill as his previous state, it will just add to the list of unused skills.Personnaly I will increase the might duration and give it a 24 sec CD so it does what it should do : a on demand spike but not anymore spammable.Or make it a boon removal aoe mantra.But the only thing mantra core mes bring on the table is the high burst, I don't think reducing the spike or the stealth burst window will make core mes more playable.

Boon removal aoe Mantra sounds pretty good to me, if Anet can't balance out the stupid amount of boonaccess on Meta builds than give Mesmers something unique back only they can do that good and with high amount. That is not broken even more would be a nice counter to a broken boonspam state and would give Mesmer some identity back after nerfing most of its useful and skillful utilities like Portal. Very good idea in my view!

coughs

Edit: Obviously don't take the numbers as being gospel, it's nearly a year old but the idea of it manipulating boons on foes is what I'd like to see. You know, almost as if this is some kind of mesmer like thing.

Sry i barely read class subforums. The idea of boon removal Mantra is great, no matter who was the first had it. Kudos to you then. And yes it fits perfect into Mesmer theme. Why wasn't it created like that in the first place? The idea of high instant max range dmg spammable (no real cds inbetween uses, no need to interrupt or whatever you have to care for at least, nothing...) was bad right from the start. Anet pls do your first good rework without just killing something with nerf to death mentality. These are the kind of senseful changes/ reworks i like to see for stuff i complain about. Any good idea for PU if we are on it? Removing the stealth duration increase was the only thing we could agree until now but it needs some form of compensation. Or we have a better idea how to change the trait into something completely different but still useful.

PU specifically? Not really because the problem isn't necessarily PU. Changing PU isn't easy, it's hard to keep the defensive theme of the line and couple it with stealth. If you decouple the trait from stealth then you have to find something else to activate the trait that fits with the line and purpose where nothing really comes to mind without bloating already overloaded aspects of the class.

To me your problem is mostly stealth stacking and a little bit the long duration of Mass Invis with PU. The problems you have with oneshot mesmer can easily happen on any other class if/when it gets access to smoke fields or any decent stealth duration. We all remember druid being completely busted in the opposite way where it could reset in stealth over and over and never really die because it could easily get 6-9s of stealth, same with original stealth gyro and scrapper.

An idea is to finally address stealth and prevent it stacking so people cannot get 6-20s of stealth, maybe adding forced reveal which would certainly prevent problems in the future for other classes however it in many ways screws over mesmer and thief which are balanced around stealth at their core. Many people would praise ANet and call it a great change, enjoying these classes being much reduced in effectiveness unless you played those 2 classes where you're going to hate it for a long time especially in WvW. You would also have to go through quite a lot of skills in the game and rebalance the duration to be longer while making smoke fields and their associated kits worse in the meta where they may not be strong at all.

Why do I mention it? They would likely have to buff stealth duration for these two classes specifically or reduce cool downs which may not actually help. For mesmer it's fairly easy as much of it's stealth is through skills so you can simply change to 4s or 5s stealth and remove duration from PU making PU simply give protection, swiftness and resistance in stealth. Thief though, they use combo fields and forcing them into SA to be functional is really horrible, you also can't buff combo fields baseline because other classes would get stronger. You could technically make all first minor traits for thief give +1s stealth which would solve the problem but it's a very inelegant solution to say the least.

So you see it's not really an easy solution for what YOU don't like, it may not actually "fix" anything while being detrimental to the whole +1 burst playstyle of thief and mesmer as it's hard to realise the wide spread implications of such a fundamental change to core mechanics.

How about the idea to make dmg multiplier get disabled (or simply a straight overall dmg reduction down to 30% or something, or just both to be sure rofl) starting after 3 secs of stealth? Means you still can stack stealth for defensive purpose and repositioning but not to oneshot someone without any tell with stacked stealth out of ear shot and visible range and can't bait out more than one dodge or one defensive cd each stealth use. The debuff or however it will be designed will stop after 1 secs the player left stealth, so that all follow up casts will not be affected (like a berserker cast after the oneshot try) but only the skills part of the oneshot combo?

This would kill the surprise aspect of any +1 making thief and mesmer having no real advantage to something like rev which has a good alpha but better follow up damage and the same would apply to any other class with a +1 build. They wouldn't ever engage in stealth any more which while you and many others might like it, it's dumbing the game down yet again as you no longer require any map awareness at all which if I remember correctly you're very much against.

There's nothing wrong with an engage in stealth as long as the duration isn't stupid like 10s+ and that there's a cost associated with it. For mesmer it's cool down, cast and not having an escape if you use it too much. For thief it's a lack of initiative and so limited follow up skill use after the +1 or again cool down use which is usually their defences, just like how mesmers build for +1.

also, if im not mistaken thief, has to spend some time blasting/jumping through the aoe to get the stealth, it also costs time, initiative ( so you can inf arow around )you arrive in stealth, but you take longer, MUCH longer. how often is it better to spend extra 10s to be stealth to +1, and how often is it just better to run in and spend that extra 10s applying pressure.

True that is why i don't have a problem with a d/p Thief, just as i have no problem with a oneshot Mesmer (no matter what spec) not having PU. But a PU Core Mesmer just has everyhting too much, good mobility, doesn't need to stack stealth on spot (can stack during running), still has oneshot dmg even with taking a defensive traitline, then when failing often still has blink or another stealth rdy to disengage easy or bait out another stupid amount of defensive skills. I mean yes in coordinated teams with good focus and communication you can counter that, but aside from these situations it is just annoying to fight and the skill lvl - reward relation is not balanced. Even i can play a Core PU Powermesmer and i normally suck hard on any other Powermesmer build.

Hmm "everything" mean a burst every 12 to 18 sec. Contrary to what you think PU didn't give "everything".Carefull with your words, it's hasn't good condiclear, it hasn't good map mobility, it hasn't good healing sustain, it has only 1 sec stun every 18 sec as hard CC (target can still evade during MoD.) to properly burst, and most importantly : it hasn't good dps (out of burst pressure.).I mean talking about "everything" I can easily prove how meta classe have more of everything.Mantra core mesmer has
stealth
and
burst
, that's all and they are linked. If you want to nerf one of the two thing it has but don't provide other thing it will just die while not even being meta.Less burst mean stealth isn't worth it, less stealth mean less effective burst.

I meant more of everything than a good roaming +1 build needs.If you all don't like the stealth dmg debuff then all i can imagine is delete the stealthduration from PU but increase boonduration as compensation?The problem with your stealth debuff is that <3sec stealth is highly predictable : who get hit by torch burn anymore ? Once you get the timing, it's ok, it never hit. And with 30% less flat damage it will never make someone under 50% (even now in mAt it can only 80-90% targets.), which is bad for a 12 sec CD burst ina build who does only that.Remember that mesmer hasn't thief hit&run gameplay were he can go in fight and back easily thief can have use on <3sec stealth because he has many gapcloser.Mesmer can only mirage sword ambush or stealth to reach his target and kite. (in a direct damage build ofc, on condi it has staff to kite.)

What I will found fine is, for example, get rid of the stealth duration bonus, make it clear 1 condi when entering stealth and give 2 sec resistance everytime at stealth end/reveal. With a 2 sec resistance at then end of stealth, you are basically less vulnerable to random weakness on auto/aoe and can output more pressure during off stealth (while also begin less hard countered by some heavy condi builds.). This is real counterpart which will allow PU mes to be more predictable while having more in fight viability.

wait, did someone actually use this kitten in mat? LOL is there a link to watch?

With no mantra of distraction and they lose the semi yeah :
But this game really highligh what can happend in high level and show the limitations of this kind of builds, particulary the moment were all his team is dead and the mes is alive in stealth.

damn, that was interesting to watch, they kinda stomped at the start,but after a bit enemy team got wiser about it. Kinda stupid that they could just witch a class tho -.- .anyways, if they took different sidenoder then mirage they could have made it, he had to give up every time ele showed up

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bravan.3876

bravan.3876

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@viquing.8254 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"shadowpass.4236" immagine whinging about mesmer sword auto chain as a RANGER main, while this exists

P.S thats from TODAY only :D

Not sure if it was a good idea to pump this nonsense thread once again to talk to a banned player known for being unreasonable und deconstructive to show him once again that he is not right or just hypocrite with most he says... but whatever.

Did you watch mATs in EU? Misha was playing Core PU Mesmer but he ran it without Mantra of Distraction, what i have seen before a lot in EU. It makes sense because of the reasons i mentioned already: Mantra of Distraction is not needed for the oneshot. Everything Mantra of Distraction adds to the combo you get form f3, just that f3 stuns in addition and not only daze. And this build is meant to just hit the burts and then run (maybe cast some phantasm as follow up pressure before), using an additional stealth skill (gives additional boons, another stunbreak and disengage tool) instead Mantra of Distraction makes much more sense in particular when you run vs decent teams know what to focus, means the Mesmer cannot freecast all time and recharge 5 seconds for free. Also recharging 2 Mantras instead of only one all the time is a lot of downtime the Mesmer can't rly do something else and need to cover like 5 secs of recharge makes him very vulnerable or makes him need to cover it with other defensive cds. Something i always tried to tell OP about the nature of Mantras and why they have lower cds because of the downside/ high costs of such a long recharge.

For Mantra of Pain i think like 99% of the ppl and Mesmer mains in this forum agree, that it is a stupid mechanic to have such high dmg on an instant max range skill without any cds inbetween recharge and inbetween uses even adding vulnerability- and mightstacks. Still it is only a secondary problem on this build, because it can oneshot the same builds also without Mantra of Pain. But it makes sense to use for more pressure vs bunker builds and for more constant (sustained) dmg. Mantra of Pain needs a rework because it is like PU an unheathy mechanic in general. But at least it needs nerfs in the vulnerability stacks, mightstacks and some cds (in my opinion, i know you disagree Viquing, but i am not talking to you here so no need to restart our dispute). I prefer a rework instead a nerf, rework into something not unhealth but still useful (just like for PU). Maybe replace the dmg part with chill? Mesmers don't need other dead traits/skills like EM, a broken mechanic nerfed to death not get used at all. EM would be much better without stunbreak on dodge and without the punish-debuff and for that 2 instead 1 conditions removed or something like that. It would have more uses already than it has atm. But before Viquing incs on me again, yes most meta builds have also or even more balance issues than a Core PU Mesmer using Mantra of Pain and these are discussed in the complain threads for these classes and should not justify overperforming or unhealthy mechanics on Mesmer.

I was waiting for the mAt core mes :DYeah no MoD.Sincerely there are way too much period of time where he can't do anything.Ok he can survive but it didn't matter when all your team is dead while you are hidding in stealth.Ok he can do some 80%hp burst but if you look details, once opponents get one shotted once, it was way harder for him to output his burst. Not to say the very low impact in teamfight.In his last game (high level) he does like 3 really usefull bursts (which an other similar class can't do while having more pressure) in a full game which is very low talking about game impact.That said about your suggestions (ofc I will go on because you didn't seems to understand the pro/cons of what you propose.) :With your nerf suggestion to MoP : welcome to one more dead utility because it will not worth it. Before the "up" of might/damage/vulenrability, MoP was used only for 1) heal spam with trait and 2) armor spam with trait. Armor spam is gone and heal spam isn't viable so if you take this skill as his previous state, it will just add to the list of unused skills.Personnaly I will increase the might duration and give it a 24 sec CD so it does what it should do : a on demand spike but not anymore spammable.Or make it a boon removal aoe mantra.But the only thing mantra core mes bring on the table is the high burst, I don't think reducing the spike or the stealth burst window will make core mes more playable.

Boon removal aoe Mantra sounds pretty good to me, if Anet can't balance out the stupid amount of boonaccess on Meta builds than give Mesmers something unique back only they can do that good and with high amount. That is not broken even more would be a nice counter to a broken boonspam state and would give Mesmer some identity back after nerfing most of its useful and skillful utilities like Portal. Very good idea in my view!

coughs

Edit: Obviously don't take the numbers as being gospel, it's nearly a year old but the idea of it manipulating boons on foes is what I'd like to see. You know, almost as if this is some kind of mesmer like thing.

Sry i barely read class subforums. The idea of boon removal Mantra is great, no matter who was the first had it. Kudos to you then. And yes it fits perfect into Mesmer theme. Why wasn't it created like that in the first place? The idea of high instant max range dmg spammable (no real cds inbetween uses, no need to interrupt or whatever you have to care for at least, nothing...) was bad right from the start. Anet pls do your first good rework without just killing something with nerf to death mentality. These are the kind of senseful changes/ reworks i like to see for stuff i complain about. Any good idea for PU if we are on it? Removing the stealth duration increase was the only thing we could agree until now but it needs some form of compensation. Or we have a better idea how to change the trait into something completely different but still useful.

PU specifically? Not really because the problem isn't necessarily PU. Changing PU isn't easy, it's hard to keep the defensive theme of the line and couple it with stealth. If you decouple the trait from stealth then you have to find something else to activate the trait that fits with the line and purpose where nothing really comes to mind without bloating already overloaded aspects of the class.

To me your problem is mostly stealth stacking and a little bit the long duration of Mass Invis with PU. The problems you have with oneshot mesmer can easily happen on any other class if/when it gets access to smoke fields or any decent stealth duration. We all remember druid being completely busted in the opposite way where it could reset in stealth over and over and never really die because it could easily get 6-9s of stealth, same with original stealth gyro and scrapper.

An idea is to finally address stealth and prevent it stacking so people cannot get 6-20s of stealth, maybe adding forced reveal which would certainly prevent problems in the future for other classes however it in many ways screws over mesmer and thief which are balanced around stealth at their core. Many people would praise ANet and call it a great change, enjoying these classes being much reduced in effectiveness unless you played those 2 classes where you're going to hate it for a long time especially in WvW. You would also have to go through quite a lot of skills in the game and rebalance the duration to be longer while making smoke fields and their associated kits worse in the meta where they may not be strong at all.

Why do I mention it? They would likely have to buff stealth duration for these two classes specifically or reduce cool downs which may not actually help. For mesmer it's fairly easy as much of it's stealth is through skills so you can simply change to 4s or 5s stealth and remove duration from PU making PU simply give protection, swiftness and resistance in stealth. Thief though, they use combo fields and forcing them into SA to be functional is really horrible, you also can't buff combo fields baseline because other classes would get stronger. You could technically make all first minor traits for thief give +1s stealth which would solve the problem but it's a very inelegant solution to say the least.

So you see it's not really an easy solution for what YOU don't like, it may not actually "fix" anything while being detrimental to the whole +1 burst playstyle of thief and mesmer as it's hard to realise the wide spread implications of such a fundamental change to core mechanics.

How about the idea to make dmg multiplier get disabled (or simply a straight overall dmg reduction down to 30% or something, or just both to be sure rofl) starting after 3 secs of stealth? Means you still can stack stealth for defensive purpose and repositioning but not to oneshot someone without any tell with stacked stealth out of ear shot and visible range and can't bait out more than one dodge or one defensive cd each stealth use. The debuff or however it will be designed will stop after 1 secs the player left stealth, so that all follow up casts will not be affected (like a berserker cast after the oneshot try) but only the skills part of the oneshot combo?

This would kill the surprise aspect of any +1 making thief and mesmer having no real advantage to something like rev which has a good alpha but better follow up damage and the same would apply to any other class with a +1 build. They wouldn't ever engage in stealth any more which while you and many others might like it, it's dumbing the game down yet again as you no longer require any map awareness at all which if I remember correctly you're very much against.

There's nothing wrong with an engage in stealth as long as the duration isn't stupid like 10s+ and that there's a cost associated with it. For mesmer it's cool down, cast and not having an escape if you use it too much. For thief it's a lack of initiative and so limited follow up skill use after the +1 or again cool down use which is usually their defences, just like how mesmers build for +1.

also, if im not mistaken thief, has to spend some time blasting/jumping through the aoe to get the stealth, it also costs time, initiative ( so you can inf arow around )you arrive in stealth, but you take longer, MUCH longer. how often is it better to spend extra 10s to be stealth to +1, and how often is it just better to run in and spend that extra 10s applying pressure.

True that is why i don't have a problem with a d/p Thief, just as i have no problem with a oneshot Mesmer (no matter what spec) not having PU. But a PU Core Mesmer just has everyhting too much, good mobility, doesn't need to stack stealth on spot (can stack during running), still has oneshot dmg even with taking a defensive traitline, then when failing often still has blink or another stealth rdy to disengage easy or bait out another stupid amount of defensive skills. I mean yes in coordinated teams with good focus and communication you can counter that, but aside from these situations it is just annoying to fight and the skill lvl - reward relation is not balanced. Even i can play a Core PU Powermesmer and i normally suck hard on any other Powermesmer build.

Hmm "everything" mean a burst every 12 to 18 sec. Contrary to what you think PU didn't give "everything".Carefull with your words, it's hasn't good condiclear, it hasn't good map mobility, it hasn't good healing sustain, it has only 1 sec stun every 18 sec as hard CC (target can still evade during MoD.) to properly burst, and most importantly : it hasn't good dps (out of burst pressure.).I mean talking about "everything" I can easily prove how meta classe have more of everything.Mantra core mesmer has
stealth
and
burst
, that's all and they are linked. If you want to nerf one of the two thing it has but don't provide other thing it will just die while not even being meta.Less burst mean stealth isn't worth it, less stealth mean less effective burst.

I meant more of everything than a good roaming +1 build needs.If you all don't like the stealth dmg debuff then all i can imagine is delete the stealthduration from PU but increase boonduration as compensation?What I will found fine is, for example, get rid of the stealth duration bonus, make it clear 1 condi when entering stealth and give 2 sec resistance everytime at stealth end/reveal. With a 2 sec resistance at then end of stealth, you are basically less vulnerable to random weakness on auto/aoe and can output more pressure during off stealth (while also begin less hard countered by some heavy condi builds.). This is real counterpart which will allow PU mes to be more predictable while having more in fight viability.

I would be fine with that.

The problem with your stealth debuff is that <3sec stealth is highly predictable : who get hit by torch burn anymore ? Once you get the timing, it's ok, it never hit. And with 30% less flat damage it will never make someone under 50% (even now in mAt it can only 80-90% targets.), which is bad for a 12 sec CD burst ina build who does only that.Remember that mesmer hasn't thief hit&run gameplay were he can go in fight and back easily thief can have use on <3sec stealth because he has many gapcloser.Mesmer can only mirage sword ambush or stealth to reach his target and kite. (in a direct damage build ofc, on condi it has staff to kite.)We could make 5 secs (start of dmg debuff in stealth), that is the highest amount of stealth on a single skill (and the attempt is not to nerf single stealth skills, only stealth stacking) anyway.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"shadowpass.4236" immagine whinging about mesmer sword auto chain as a RANGER main, while this exists

P.S thats from TODAY only :D

Not sure if it was a good idea to pump this nonsense thread once again to talk to a banned player known for being unreasonable und deconstructive to show him once again that he is not right or just hypocrite with most he says... but whatever.

Did you watch mATs in EU? Misha was playing Core PU Mesmer but he ran it without Mantra of Distraction, what i have seen before a lot in EU. It makes sense because of the reasons i mentioned already: Mantra of Distraction is not needed for the oneshot. Everything Mantra of Distraction adds to the combo you get form f3, just that f3 stuns in addition and not only daze. And this build is meant to just hit the burts and then run (maybe cast some phantasm as follow up pressure before), using an additional stealth skill (gives additional boons, another stunbreak and disengage tool) instead Mantra of Distraction makes much more sense in particular when you run vs decent teams know what to focus, means the Mesmer cannot freecast all time and recharge 5 seconds for free. Also recharging 2 Mantras instead of only one all the time is a lot of downtime the Mesmer can't rly do something else and need to cover like 5 secs of recharge makes him very vulnerable or makes him need to cover it with other defensive cds. Something i always tried to tell OP about the nature of Mantras and why they have lower cds because of the downside/ high costs of such a long recharge.

For Mantra of Pain i think like 99% of the ppl and Mesmer mains in this forum agree, that it is a stupid mechanic to have such high dmg on an instant max range skill without any cds inbetween recharge and inbetween uses even adding vulnerability- and mightstacks. Still it is only a secondary problem on this build, because it can oneshot the same builds also without Mantra of Pain. But it makes sense to use for more pressure vs bunker builds and for more constant (sustained) dmg. Mantra of Pain needs a rework because it is like PU an unheathy mechanic in general. But at least it needs nerfs in the vulnerability stacks, mightstacks and some cds (in my opinion, i know you disagree Viquing, but i am not talking to you here so no need to restart our dispute). I prefer a rework instead a nerf, rework into something not unhealth but still useful (just like for PU). Maybe replace the dmg part with chill? Mesmers don't need other dead traits/skills like EM, a broken mechanic nerfed to death not get used at all. EM would be much better without stunbreak on dodge and without the punish-debuff and for that 2 instead 1 conditions removed or something like that. It would have more uses already than it has atm. But before Viquing incs on me again, yes most meta builds have also or even more balance issues than a Core PU Mesmer using Mantra of Pain and these are discussed in the complain threads for these classes and should not justify overperforming or unhealthy mechanics on Mesmer.

I was waiting for the mAt core mes :DYeah no MoD.Sincerely there are way too much period of time where he can't do anything.Ok he can survive but it didn't matter when all your team is dead while you are hidding in stealth.Ok he can do some 80%hp burst but if you look details, once opponents get one shotted once, it was way harder for him to output his burst. Not to say the very low impact in teamfight.In his last game (high level) he does like 3 really usefull bursts (which an other similar class can't do while having more pressure) in a full game which is very low talking about game impact.That said about your suggestions (ofc I will go on because you didn't seems to understand the pro/cons of what you propose.) :With your nerf suggestion to MoP : welcome to one more dead utility because it will not worth it. Before the "up" of might/damage/vulenrability, MoP was used only for 1) heal spam with trait and 2) armor spam with trait. Armor spam is gone and heal spam isn't viable so if you take this skill as his previous state, it will just add to the list of unused skills.Personnaly I will increase the might duration and give it a 24 sec CD so it does what it should do : a on demand spike but not anymore spammable.Or make it a boon removal aoe mantra.But the only thing mantra core mes bring on the table is the high burst, I don't think reducing the spike or the stealth burst window will make core mes more playable.

Boon removal aoe Mantra sounds pretty good to me, if Anet can't balance out the stupid amount of boonaccess on Meta builds than give Mesmers something unique back only they can do that good and with high amount. That is not broken even more would be a nice counter to a broken boonspam state and would give Mesmer some identity back after nerfing most of its useful and skillful utilities like Portal. Very good idea in my view!

coughs

Edit: Obviously don't take the numbers as being gospel, it's nearly a year old but the idea of it manipulating boons on foes is what I'd like to see. You know, almost as if this is some kind of mesmer like thing.

Sry i barely read class subforums. The idea of boon removal Mantra is great, no matter who was the first had it. Kudos to you then. And yes it fits perfect into Mesmer theme. Why wasn't it created like that in the first place? The idea of high instant max range dmg spammable (no real cds inbetween uses, no need to interrupt or whatever you have to care for at least, nothing...) was bad right from the start. Anet pls do your first good rework without just killing something with nerf to death mentality. These are the kind of senseful changes/ reworks i like to see for stuff i complain about. Any good idea for PU if we are on it? Removing the stealth duration increase was the only thing we could agree until now but it needs some form of compensation. Or we have a better idea how to change the trait into something completely different but still useful.

PU specifically? Not really because the problem isn't necessarily PU. Changing PU isn't easy, it's hard to keep the defensive theme of the line and couple it with stealth. If you decouple the trait from stealth then you have to find something else to activate the trait that fits with the line and purpose where nothing really comes to mind without bloating already overloaded aspects of the class.

To me your problem is mostly stealth stacking and a little bit the long duration of Mass Invis with PU. The problems you have with oneshot mesmer can easily happen on any other class if/when it gets access to smoke fields or any decent stealth duration. We all remember druid being completely busted in the opposite way where it could reset in stealth over and over and never really die because it could easily get 6-9s of stealth, same with original stealth gyro and scrapper.

An idea is to finally address stealth and prevent it stacking so people cannot get 6-20s of stealth, maybe adding forced reveal which would certainly prevent problems in the future for other classes however it in many ways screws over mesmer and thief which are balanced around stealth at their core. Many people would praise ANet and call it a great change, enjoying these classes being much reduced in effectiveness unless you played those 2 classes where you're going to hate it for a long time especially in WvW. You would also have to go through quite a lot of skills in the game and rebalance the duration to be longer while making smoke fields and their associated kits worse in the meta where they may not be strong at all.

Why do I mention it? They would likely have to buff stealth duration for these two classes specifically or reduce cool downs which may not actually help. For mesmer it's fairly easy as much of it's stealth is through skills so you can simply change to 4s or 5s stealth and remove duration from PU making PU simply give protection, swiftness and resistance in stealth. Thief though, they use combo fields and forcing them into SA to be functional is really horrible, you also can't buff combo fields baseline because other classes would get stronger. You could technically make all first minor traits for thief give +1s stealth which would solve the problem but it's a very inelegant solution to say the least.

So you see it's not really an easy solution for what YOU don't like, it may not actually "fix" anything while being detrimental to the whole +1 burst playstyle of thief and mesmer as it's hard to realise the wide spread implications of such a fundamental change to core mechanics.

How about the idea to make dmg multiplier get disabled (or simply a straight overall dmg reduction down to 30% or something, or just both to be sure rofl) starting after 3 secs of stealth? Means you still can stack stealth for defensive purpose and repositioning but not to oneshot someone without any tell with stacked stealth out of ear shot and visible range and can't bait out more than one dodge or one defensive cd each stealth use. The debuff or however it will be designed will stop after 1 secs the player left stealth, so that all follow up casts will not be affected (like a berserker cast after the oneshot try) but only the skills part of the oneshot combo?

This would kill the surprise aspect of any +1 making thief and mesmer having no real advantage to something like rev which has a good alpha but better follow up damage and the same would apply to any other class with a +1 build. They wouldn't ever engage in stealth any more which while you and many others might like it, it's dumbing the game down yet again as you no longer require any map awareness at all which if I remember correctly you're very much against.

There's nothing wrong with an engage in stealth as long as the duration isn't stupid like 10s+ and that there's a cost associated with it. For mesmer it's cool down, cast and not having an escape if you use it too much. For thief it's a lack of initiative and so limited follow up skill use after the +1 or again cool down use which is usually their defences, just like how mesmers build for +1.

also, if im not mistaken thief, has to spend some time blasting/jumping through the aoe to get the stealth, it also costs time, initiative ( so you can inf arow around )you arrive in stealth, but you take longer, MUCH longer. how often is it better to spend extra 10s to be stealth to +1, and how often is it just better to run in and spend that extra 10s applying pressure.

True that is why i don't have a problem with a d/p Thief, just as i have no problem with a oneshot Mesmer (no matter what spec) not having PU. But a PU Core Mesmer just has everyhting too much, good mobility, doesn't need to stack stealth on spot (can stack during running), still has oneshot dmg even with taking a defensive traitline, then when failing often still has blink or another stealth rdy to disengage easy or bait out another stupid amount of defensive skills. I mean yes in coordinated teams with good focus and communication you can counter that, but aside from these situations it is just annoying to fight and the skill lvl - reward relation is not balanced. Even i can play a Core PU Powermesmer and i normally suck hard on any other Powermesmer build.

Hmm "everything" mean a burst every 12 to 18 sec. Contrary to what you think PU didn't give "everything".Carefull with your words, it's hasn't good condiclear, it hasn't good map mobility, it hasn't good healing sustain, it has only 1 sec stun every 18 sec as hard CC (target can still evade during MoD.) to properly burst, and most importantly : it hasn't good dps (out of burst pressure.).I mean talking about "everything" I can easily prove how meta classe have more of everything.Mantra core mesmer has
stealth
and
burst
, that's all and they are linked. If you want to nerf one of the two thing it has but don't provide other thing it will just die while not even being meta.Less burst mean stealth isn't worth it, less stealth mean less effective burst.

I meant more of everything than a good roaming +1 build needs.If you all don't like the stealth dmg debuff then all i can imagine is delete the stealthduration from PU but increase boonduration as compensation?The problem with your stealth debuff is that <3sec stealth is highly predictable : who get hit by torch burn anymore ? Once you get the timing, it's ok, it never hit. And with 30% less flat damage it will never make someone under 50% (even now in mAt it can only 80-90% targets.), which is bad for a 12 sec CD burst ina build who does only that.Remember that mesmer hasn't thief hit&run gameplay were he can go in fight and back easily thief can have use on <3sec stealth because he has many gapcloser.Mesmer can only mirage sword ambush or stealth to reach his target and kite. (in a direct damage build ofc, on condi it has staff to kite.)

What I will found fine is, for example, get rid of the stealth duration bonus, make it clear 1 condi when entering stealth and give 2 sec resistance everytime at stealth end/reveal. With a 2 sec resistance at then end of stealth, you are basically less vulnerable to random weakness on auto/aoe and can output more pressure during off stealth (while also begin less hard countered by some heavy condi builds.). This is real counterpart which will allow PU mes to be more predictable while having more in fight viability.

wait, did someone actually use this kitten in mat? LOL is there a link to watch?

With no mantra of distraction and they lose the semi yeah :
But this game really highligh what can happend in high level and show the limitations of this kind of builds, particulary the moment were all his team is dead and the mes is alive in stealth.

kitten, that was interesting to watch, they kinda stomped at the start,but after a bit enemy team got wiser about it. Kinda stupid that they could just witch a class tho -.- .anyways, if they took different sidenoder then mirage they could have made it, he had to give up every time ele showed up

On every other map not requiring an on point teamfight like on bell as secondary mechanic with such high impact this teamcomp would have won most likely, it was a comp heavily based on (out-) rotating with barely any on point sustain.

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viquing.8254

viquing.8254

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@bravan.3876 said:On every other map not requiring an on point teamfight like on bell as secondary mechanic with such high impact this teamcomp would have won most likely, it was a comp heavily based on (out-) rotating with barely any on point sustain.Versus every other team with a same level thief as the core mes this teamcomp would have done a 4v5. (Like if they faced the wining team with fly and flandre they would litteraly get farmed because of 2 mesmers vs 2 thieves.). But yeah it's the game.

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apharma.3741

apharma.3741

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@bravan.3876 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"shadowpass.4236" immagine whinging about mesmer sword auto chain as a RANGER main, while this exists

P.S thats from TODAY only :D

Not sure if it was a good idea to pump this nonsense thread once again to talk to a banned player known for being unreasonable und deconstructive to show him once again that he is not right or just hypocrite with most he says... but whatever.

Did you watch mATs in EU? Misha was playing Core PU Mesmer but he ran it without Mantra of Distraction, what i have seen before a lot in EU. It makes sense because of the reasons i mentioned already: Mantra of Distraction is not needed for the oneshot. Everything Mantra of Distraction adds to the combo you get form f3, just that f3 stuns in addition and not only daze. And this build is meant to just hit the burts and then run (maybe cast some phantasm as follow up pressure before), using an additional stealth skill (gives additional boons, another stunbreak and disengage tool) instead Mantra of Distraction makes much more sense in particular when you run vs decent teams know what to focus, means the Mesmer cannot freecast all time and recharge 5 seconds for free. Also recharging 2 Mantras instead of only one all the time is a lot of downtime the Mesmer can't rly do something else and need to cover like 5 secs of recharge makes him very vulnerable or makes him need to cover it with other defensive cds. Something i always tried to tell OP about the nature of Mantras and why they have lower cds because of the downside/ high costs of such a long recharge.

For Mantra of Pain i think like 99% of the ppl and Mesmer mains in this forum agree, that it is a stupid mechanic to have such high dmg on an instant max range skill without any cds inbetween recharge and inbetween uses even adding vulnerability- and mightstacks. Still it is only a secondary problem on this build, because it can oneshot the same builds also without Mantra of Pain. But it makes sense to use for more pressure vs bunker builds and for more constant (sustained) dmg. Mantra of Pain needs a rework because it is like PU an unheathy mechanic in general. But at least it needs nerfs in the vulnerability stacks, mightstacks and some cds (in my opinion, i know you disagree Viquing, but i am not talking to you here so no need to restart our dispute). I prefer a rework instead a nerf, rework into something not unhealth but still useful (just like for PU). Maybe replace the dmg part with chill? Mesmers don't need other dead traits/skills like EM, a broken mechanic nerfed to death not get used at all. EM would be much better without stunbreak on dodge and without the punish-debuff and for that 2 instead 1 conditions removed or something like that. It would have more uses already than it has atm. But before Viquing incs on me again, yes most meta builds have also or even more balance issues than a Core PU Mesmer using Mantra of Pain and these are discussed in the complain threads for these classes and should not justify overperforming or unhealthy mechanics on Mesmer.

I was waiting for the mAt core mes :DYeah no MoD.Sincerely there are way too much period of time where he can't do anything.Ok he can survive but it didn't matter when all your team is dead while you are hidding in stealth.Ok he can do some 80%hp burst but if you look details, once opponents get one shotted once, it was way harder for him to output his burst. Not to say the very low impact in teamfight.In his last game (high level) he does like 3 really usefull bursts (which an other similar class can't do while having more pressure) in a full game which is very low talking about game impact.That said about your suggestions (ofc I will go on because you didn't seems to understand the pro/cons of what you propose.) :With your nerf suggestion to MoP : welcome to one more dead utility because it will not worth it. Before the "up" of might/damage/vulenrability, MoP was used only for 1) heal spam with trait and 2) armor spam with trait. Armor spam is gone and heal spam isn't viable so if you take this skill as his previous state, it will just add to the list of unused skills.Personnaly I will increase the might duration and give it a 24 sec CD so it does what it should do : a on demand spike but not anymore spammable.Or make it a boon removal aoe mantra.But the only thing mantra core mes bring on the table is the high burst, I don't think reducing the spike or the stealth burst window will make core mes more playable.

Boon removal aoe Mantra sounds pretty good to me, if Anet can't balance out the stupid amount of boonaccess on Meta builds than give Mesmers something unique back only they can do that good and with high amount. That is not broken even more would be a nice counter to a broken boonspam state and would give Mesmer some identity back after nerfing most of its useful and skillful utilities like Portal. Very good idea in my view!

coughs

Edit: Obviously don't take the numbers as being gospel, it's nearly a year old but the idea of it manipulating boons on foes is what I'd like to see. You know, almost as if this is some kind of mesmer like thing.

Sry i barely read class subforums. The idea of boon removal Mantra is great, no matter who was the first had it. Kudos to you then. And yes it fits perfect into Mesmer theme. Why wasn't it created like that in the first place? The idea of high instant max range dmg spammable (no real cds inbetween uses, no need to interrupt or whatever you have to care for at least, nothing...) was bad right from the start. Anet pls do your first good rework without just killing something with nerf to death mentality. These are the kind of senseful changes/ reworks i like to see for stuff i complain about. Any good idea for PU if we are on it? Removing the stealth duration increase was the only thing we could agree until now but it needs some form of compensation. Or we have a better idea how to change the trait into something completely different but still useful.

PU specifically? Not really because the problem isn't necessarily PU. Changing PU isn't easy, it's hard to keep the defensive theme of the line and couple it with stealth. If you decouple the trait from stealth then you have to find something else to activate the trait that fits with the line and purpose where nothing really comes to mind without bloating already overloaded aspects of the class.

To me your problem is mostly stealth stacking and a little bit the long duration of Mass Invis with PU. The problems you have with oneshot mesmer can easily happen on any other class if/when it gets access to smoke fields or any decent stealth duration. We all remember druid being completely busted in the opposite way where it could reset in stealth over and over and never really die because it could easily get 6-9s of stealth, same with original stealth gyro and scrapper.

An idea is to finally address stealth and prevent it stacking so people cannot get 6-20s of stealth, maybe adding forced reveal which would certainly prevent problems in the future for other classes however it in many ways screws over mesmer and thief which are balanced around stealth at their core. Many people would praise ANet and call it a great change, enjoying these classes being much reduced in effectiveness unless you played those 2 classes where you're going to hate it for a long time especially in WvW. You would also have to go through quite a lot of skills in the game and rebalance the duration to be longer while making smoke fields and their associated kits worse in the meta where they may not be strong at all.

Why do I mention it? They would likely have to buff stealth duration for these two classes specifically or reduce cool downs which may not actually help. For mesmer it's fairly easy as much of it's stealth is through skills so you can simply change to 4s or 5s stealth and remove duration from PU making PU simply give protection, swiftness and resistance in stealth. Thief though, they use combo fields and forcing them into SA to be functional is really horrible, you also can't buff combo fields baseline because other classes would get stronger. You could technically make all first minor traits for thief give +1s stealth which would solve the problem but it's a very inelegant solution to say the least.

So you see it's not really an easy solution for what YOU don't like, it may not actually "fix" anything while being detrimental to the whole +1 burst playstyle of thief and mesmer as it's hard to realise the wide spread implications of such a fundamental change to core mechanics.

How about the idea to make dmg multiplier get disabled (or simply a straight overall dmg reduction down to 30% or something, or just both to be sure rofl) starting after 3 secs of stealth? Means you still can stack stealth for defensive purpose and repositioning but not to oneshot someone without any tell with stacked stealth out of ear shot and visible range and can't bait out more than one dodge or one defensive cd each stealth use. The debuff or however it will be designed will stop after 1 secs the player left stealth, so that all follow up casts will not be affected (like a berserker cast after the oneshot try) but only the skills part of the oneshot combo?

This would kill the surprise aspect of any +1 making thief and mesmer having no real advantage to something like rev which has a good alpha but better follow up damage and the same would apply to any other class with a +1 build. They wouldn't ever engage in stealth any more which while you and many others might like it, it's dumbing the game down yet again as you no longer require any map awareness at all which if I remember correctly you're very much against.

There's nothing wrong with an engage in stealth as long as the duration isn't stupid like 10s+ and that there's a cost associated with it. For mesmer it's cool down, cast and not having an escape if you use it too much. For thief it's a lack of initiative and so limited follow up skill use after the +1 or again cool down use which is usually their defences, just like how mesmers build for +1.

Not sure about that, neither current Thief roaming build uses a lot fo stealth, nor Powermirage or as you said Rev. Also Holo as the better roaming build than any Powermes build has only 5 sec of stealth. Daredevil d/p was pretty much the only +1 build used (before Core PU became a thing recently) with a higher amount of stealth to come out of nowhere and it didn't have the dmg to oneshot a full hp medium armour class without any tell. I think something like after 5/6 secs stealth starting dmg debuff would not hurt too much, roaming builds can still stack stealth for sneaky rotations and decaps and in 5/6 secs you still can income into a duel with surprise (at least when using mobility skills) aka ppl would still need to keep track of stealthed rotations.

The current builds don't use stealth very much because in the case of mirage it has more mobility so doesn't need longer stealth or they're not straight up +1 builds that actually lose all 1v1 fights instead they're built to fight much longer than those pure +1 builds of the past (Pre HoT mesmer, HoT DP thief). Additionally it's very difficult to judge effectiveness of +1 builds at the moment when map awareness by the overwhelming majority of the playerbase (even legend rank) is bottom of the barrel so stealth isn't actually needed at all because you'll surprise most people anyway.

A damage debuff after being in stealth seems like a bit of a bandaid fix for only one aspect of a problem rather than addressing the real issue which is that stealth shouldn't be going on for longer than 5-6s as it is too good of an escape, engage, rez or whatever tool when it goes on too long. An organised team wanting to disengage a fight with PU mass invis stops attacking, goes invis and they're gone for 9s, that's a hard reset from a bad fight which is good in some ways but every bit as broken as an engage after 9s of stealth. The commonality is the duration of stealth, not necessarily the action while in stealth and so the duration of stealth is what should be targeted first.

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bravan.3876

bravan.3876

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@apharma.3741 said:

A damage debuff after being in stealth seems like a bit of a bandaid fix for only one aspect of a problem rather than addressing the real issue which is that stealth shouldn't be going on for longer than 5-6s as it is too good of an escape, engage, rez or whatever tool when it goes on too long. An organised team wanting to disengage a fight with PU mass invis stops attacking, goes invis and they're gone for 9s, that's a hard reset from a bad fight which is good in some ways but every bit as broken as an engage after 9s of stealth. The commonality is the duration of stealth, not necessarily the action while in stealth and so the duration of stealth is what should be targeted first.

But that is where i started, that PU is a problem because of the stealth duration. Remove the increase in stealth duration and increase the boonduration instead but you disagreed to that too if i remember right.

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:On every other map not requiring an on point teamfight like on bell as secondary mechanic with such high impact this teamcomp would have won most likely, it was a comp heavily based on (out-) rotating with barely any on point sustain.Versus every other team with a same level thief as the core mes this teamcomp would have done a 4v5. (Like if they faced the wining team with fly and flandre they would litteraly get farmed because of 2 mesmers vs 2 thieves.). But yeah it's the game.

Vs a team with 2 Thieves yes but i am not sure vs a team with one Thief. I would imagine the PU Mes has more than enough disengage and mobility to not get farmed by the Thief (just need to avoid duels with the Thief), can pop out somewhere else and at least get the burst out before the Thief is on his butt again. Means the Thief would be very busy to stay close to the Mesmer, would probably even be more useless than the Mesmer because the Mesmer will have the time to burst after stealth repositioning often. Also they have a Thief in team themself can peel for the Mesmer without problems during Pain training. But yes a team with 2 good Thieves would have a big advantage vs them.

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apharma.3741

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@bravan.3876 said:

A damage debuff after being in stealth seems like a bit of a bandaid fix for only one aspect of a problem rather than addressing the real issue which is that stealth shouldn't be going on for longer than 5-6s as it is too good of an escape, engage, rez or whatever tool when it goes on too long. An organised team wanting to disengage a fight with PU mass invis stops attacking, goes invis and they're gone for 9s, that's a hard reset from a bad fight which is good in some ways but every bit as broken as an engage after 9s of stealth. The commonality is the duration of stealth, not necessarily the action while in stealth and so the duration of stealth is what should be targeted first.

But that is where i started, that PU is a problem because of the stealth duration. Remove the increase in stealth duration and increase the boonduration instead but you disagreed to that too if i remember right.

@bravan.3876 said:On every other map not requiring an on point teamfight like on bell as secondary mechanic with such high impact this teamcomp would have won most likely, it was a comp heavily based on (out-) rotating with barely any on point sustain.Versus every other team with a same level thief as the core mes this teamcomp would have done a 4v5. (Like if they faced the wining team with fly and flandre they would litteraly get farmed because of 2 mesmers vs 2 thieves.). But yeah it's the game.

Vs a team with 2 Thieves yes but i am not sure vs a team with one Thief. I would imagine the PU Mes has more than enough disengage and mobility to not get farmed by the Thief (just need to avoid duels with the Thief), can pop out somewhere else and at least get the burst out before the Thief is on his butt again. Means the Thief would be very busy to stay close to the Mesmer, would probably even be more useless than the Mesmer because the Mesmer will have the time to burst after stealth repositioning often. Also they have a Thief in team themself can peel for the Mesmer without problems during Pain training. But yes a team with 2 good Thieves would have a big advantage vs them.

I believe I explained why it was not a simple solution to nerf PU and that the problem was stealth stacking not the duration of stealth granted by PU itself which for all except Mass Invisibility gives 3-4.5s of stealth which is hardly game breaking. If Stealth no longer stacked you would have a tighter control over stealth duration however I don't know if you mentioned not stacking, if you did and I glossed over it sorry but I only saw you saying about a stacking debuff which I don't think is a good idea.

The problem is that stealth stacks, not the duration of stealth given by PU, except with mass invis.

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bravan.3876

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@apharma.3741 said:

A damage debuff after being in stealth seems like a bit of a bandaid fix for only one aspect of a problem rather than addressing the real issue which is that stealth shouldn't be going on for longer than 5-6s as it is too good of an escape, engage, rez or whatever tool when it goes on too long. An organised team wanting to disengage a fight with PU mass invis stops attacking, goes invis and they're gone for 9s, that's a hard reset from a bad fight which is good in some ways but every bit as broken as an engage after 9s of stealth. The commonality is the duration of stealth, not necessarily the action while in stealth and so the duration of stealth is what should be targeted first.

But that is where i started, that PU is a problem because of the stealth duration. Remove the increase in stealth duration and increase the boonduration instead but you disagreed to that too if i remember right.

@bravan.3876 said:On every other map not requiring an on point teamfight like on bell as secondary mechanic with such high impact this teamcomp would have won most likely, it was a comp heavily based on (out-) rotating with barely any on point sustain.Versus every other team with a same level thief as the core mes this teamcomp would have done a 4v5. (Like if they faced the wining team with fly and flandre they would litteraly get farmed because of 2 mesmers vs 2 thieves.). But yeah it's the game.

Vs a team with 2 Thieves yes but i am not sure vs a team with one Thief. I would imagine the PU Mes has more than enough disengage and mobility to not get farmed by the Thief (just need to avoid duels with the Thief), can pop out somewhere else and at least get the burst out before the Thief is on his butt again. Means the Thief would be very busy to stay close to the Mesmer, would probably even be more useless than the Mesmer because the Mesmer will have the time to burst after stealth repositioning often. Also they have a Thief in team themself can peel for the Mesmer without problems during Pain training. But yes a team with 2 good Thieves would have a big advantage vs them.

I believe I explained why it was not a simple solution to nerf PU and that the problem was stealth stacking not the duration of stealth granted by PU itself which for all except Mass Invisibility gives 3-4.5s of stealth which is hardly game breaking. If Stealth no longer stacked you would have a tighter control over stealth duration however I don't know if you mentioned not stacking, if you did and I glossed over it sorry but I only saw you saying about a stacking debuff which I don't think is a good idea.

The problem is that stealth stacks, not the duration of stealth given by PU, except with mass invis.

I am not sure what your solution then is, you want to nerf Mass Invis for the sake of PU ( i would not recommend, it is the only not totally useless Elite Coremesmers have left)? Or what do you want to do to prevent 9 secs Mass Invis? I don't think it is that much of a problem when a Thief stacks stealth with combo fields, the costs in initiative and the need to stack on spot (aka less mobility) are balanced costs for that, also Thief doesn't rly have oneshot dmg (on no tell combos). These reasons make Thief stealth stacking not rly an issue (not talking about DE here). For me PU still stays the main isssue also because i have no problems with a oneshot Mesmer (no matter if Core or Mirage or old Chrono) when he doesn't use PU. That a Mesmer with one defensive traitline used still has oneshot dmg is another issue, but that would be solved by removing passive dmg multiplier and turn them into dmg traits linked to player actions, for example like Deceptive Evasion as active mechanic over Superiority Complex.

I would prefer the dmg debuff starting after 5/6 secs of stealth over making stealth not stacking in duration tbh. It is more flexible in the timing we can make the debuff start, players can work with that on both sides, it will not nerf the pure defensive use and repositioning use as not stacking in duration would do. It will just prevent oneshotting out of stupidly long stealth making the oneshot unpredictable and for that uncounterable. No matter if the duration comes from stacking stealth or a trait like PU. And 5-6 secs are more than enough to surprisingly +1 a fight, at least when other movementskill cds are used what is kind of fair i think. If you want to come out of nowhere you at least should not have any bigger disengage left when failing.

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