Dec 3 update notes

[JonnyForgotten.4276]

Thief

We released a hotfix for Deadly Ambition for PvP in November, but in this update we're addressing the issue with a more comprehensive and functional change to refocus the trait on control over its usage rather than being a very passive damage increase.

Uncatchable: Fall damage functionality has been removed from this trait.Deadly Ambition: This trait now applies 1 stack of poison for 3 seconds when striking with a dual-wield attack. This effect has no cooldown but can only occur once per dual-wield attack use. This trait is no longer split between game modes.

So we can't get the effect of Deadly Ambition on shortbow, staff, or rifle? Fine for staff or rifle, but really sucks on shortbow. :(

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

Yeah. This looks like an overall nerf. Didn’t Deadly Ambition already weather a nerf last round?

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:Yeah. This looks like an overall nerf. Didn’t Deadly Ambition already weather a nerf last round?

Its was still effective therefore gw community whined about it therefore it got nerfed :)It's a thief life.

[Dreamreaver.4908]

It should at least retain two stacks of poison in PvE. Otherwise the class will be able to literally do nothing but power there, which is meh for those who enjoy varied playstyles.

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

Rip condi builds I guess. ☹️

[babazhook.6805]

With the caveat that I do not yet know whether this trait will still carry the +120 conditional damage add to it and or if it will work with potent poison so as to add 2 stacks if potent taken, this is a boost to both D/D condition and p/d condition both of which use dual wield extensively in their rotations. The lack of an ICD just means more poison stacks overall when in those sets.

[Dreamreaver.4908]

@babazhook.6805 said:With the caveat that I do not yet know whether this trait will still carry the +120 conditional damage add to it and or if it will work with potent poison so as to add 2 stacks if potent taken, this is a boost to both D/D condition and p/d condition both of which use dual wield extensively in their rotations. The lack of an ICD just means more poison stacks overall when in those sets.

It's currently two stacks on any hit with a two second cooldown. It's changing to one stack though only on skills that use initiative. So the stacks are halved, and the zero cooldown is whatever since to try to get any meaningful stacks, you'll blow all your initiative. It's a nerf.

[babazhook.6805]

@KidRoleplay.3615 said:

@"babazhook.6805" said:With the caveat that I do not yet know whether this trait will still carry the +120 conditional damage add to it and or if it will work with potent poison so as to add 2 stacks if potent taken, this is a boost to both D/D condition and p/d condition both of which use dual wield extensively in their rotations. The lack of an ICD just means more poison stacks overall when in those sets.

It's currently two stacks on

any

hit with a two second cooldown. It's changing to one stack though only on skills that use initiative. So the stacks are halved, and the zero cooldown is whatever since to try to get any meaningful stacks, you'll blow all your initiative. It's a nerf.

I am not talking about PvE.

In PvP the ICD is 10 seconds with 1 stack added. This change is a significant boost to PvP P/d and D/d .In WvW the current icd is 5 seconds for 2 stacks. This is still a a boost to both d/d and to P/d. D/d will garner more stacks with the change but P/d should also come out ahead as you can easily get two of the attack iterations off in that 5 second period each of these being 3 separate dual wields.

in PVE it a slight nerf to p/d (depending on how much you in fact use #3 ) and A wash in d/d given D/d tends to use a lot of Dblossoms (you can get three off in those two seconds for 6 stacks without much problem). You are not "blowing your initiative" when the new version will do more damage per initiative used then it does now.

As in currently if using DBlossom on a single target with d/d build I get three bleeds. With the new version I will get 3 bleeds and 1 poison. I am in fact getting more out of the 4 ini then the exisiting system. Given there no ICD all followup Dblossoms will add that poison as well. There will not be a 2 second cooldown.

[Dreamreaver.4908]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@KidRoleplay.3615 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:With the caveat that I do not yet know whether this trait will still carry the +120 conditional damage add to it and or if it will work with potent poison so as to add 2 stacks if potent taken, this is a boost to both D/D condition and p/d condition both of which use dual wield extensively in their rotations. The lack of an ICD just means more poison stacks overall when in those sets.

It's currently two stacks on

any

hit with a two second cooldown. It's changing to one stack though only on skills that use initiative. So the stacks are halved, and the zero cooldown is whatever since to try to get any meaningful stacks, you'll blow all your initiative. It's a nerf.

I am not talking about PvE.

In PvP the ICD is 10 seconds with 1 stack added. This change is a significant boost to PvP P/d and D/d .In WvW the current icd is 5 seconds for 2 stacks. This is still a a boost to both d/d and to P/d. D/d will garner more stacks with the change but P/d should also come out ahead as you can easily get two of the attack iterations off in that 5 second period each of these being 3 separate dual wields.

in PVE it a slight nerf to p/d (depending on how much you in fact use #3 ) and A wash in d/d given D/d tends to use a lot of Dblossoms (you can get three off in those two seconds for 6 stacks without much problem). You are not "blowing your initiative" when the new version will do more damage per initiative used then it does now.

As in currently if using DBlossom on a single target with d/d build I get three bleeds. With the new version I will get 3 bleeds and 1 poison. I am in fact getting more out of the 4 ini then the exisiting system. Given there no ICD all followup Dblossoms will add that poison as well. There will not be a 2 second cooldown.

Yep. Skill splits. A necessary annoyance. But yeah, I was only speaking of PvE. Remember, it's losing a stack, so getting 3 Death Blossoms off in 3 seconds is still only 3 stacks. No cooldown, sure, but I feel having it proc on anything that hits instead of specifically initiative is better, such that you'd get continual application as long as you keep hitting.

Edit: Re-read Potent Poison. So, I see your example. Though that would have been three stacks if Deadly Ambition wasn't losing one! Sad face...

[JonnyForgotten.4276]

I just don't get why it's tied to DUAL WIELD skills. Tie it to skill 3 on all weapons, fine, as I kind of like the active play nature of this change. It just really sucks that, as worded, shortbow will not be able to benefit from the poison application. :(

[Kallist.5917]

So they took away a Condition trait from one of the few hard condition hitting weapons thief had? What the hell ANet, I'd really like to hear an explanation on this. Though fat chance of that happening. the cucks have been silent for 7 damn years. Meanwhile all the other studios putting out anything worth playing have switched to a more open development, giving us roadmaps and talking to their communities..

[babazhook.6805]

Again as far as p/d and d/d goes in condition builds and especially in PvP , this a significant boost. Outside of SB this does affect builds that I feel they never forsaw as being condition weapons (s/d rifle).

P/D prior to changes in PvP could see one posion stack add every 10 seconds and 2 with Potent Poison traited via deadly ambition.They can now get 2 stacks per number three use. In a 10 second period it relatively easy to get three full uses of the #3 cycle off which translates to 9 dual wield attacks. Yes they lose some poison on serpents touch but this a huge boost. D/D this even more pronounced.

In WvW which I play almost exclusively I see this a significant boost to p/d and d/d. It will hurt rifle condition and s/d condition.

SB sort of becomes the odd man out. Had they tied this just to the #3 skill , rifle condition and s/d condition would be even deadlier and way burstier.

Once patch day comes around I will seriously consider shifting my p/d condition build to core. my Grieving hybrid build might also go core albeit that will take a good amount of adjustments.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@KidRoleplay.3615 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:With the caveat that I do not yet know whether this trait will still carry the +120 conditional damage add to it and or if it will work with potent poison so as to add 2 stacks if potent taken, this is a boost to both D/D condition and p/d condition both of which use dual wield extensively in their rotations. The lack of an ICD just means more poison stacks overall when in those sets.

It's currently two stacks on

any

hit with a two second cooldown. It's changing to one stack though only on skills that use initiative. So the stacks are halved, and the zero cooldown is whatever since to try to get any meaningful stacks, you'll blow all your initiative. It's a nerf.

I am not talking about PvE.

In PvP the ICD is 10 seconds with 1 stack added. This change is a significant boost to PvP P/d and D/d .In WvW the current icd is 5 seconds for 2 stacks. This is still a a boost to both d/d and to P/d. D/d will garner more stacks with the change but P/d should also come out ahead as you can easily get two of the attack iterations off in that 5 second period each of these being 3 separate dual wields.

in PVE it a slight nerf to p/d (depending on how much you in fact use #3 ) and A wash in d/d given D/d tends to use a lot of Dblossoms (you can get three off in those two seconds for 6 stacks without much problem). You are not "blowing your initiative" when the new version will do more damage per initiative used then it does now.

As in currently if using DBlossom on a single target with d/d build I get three bleeds. With the new version I will get 3 bleeds and 1 poison. I am in fact getting more out of the 4 ini then the exisiting system. Given there no ICD all followup Dblossoms will add that poison as well. There will not be a 2 second cooldown.

How is this a boost to d/p?Other than black powder/heart seeker combo to get behind for a back stab auto's are ur main attacks which don't use ini.the other skills in the kit are useful only when needed in fight.

[Kageseigi.2150]

Speaking of the upcoming patch, has anybody noticed the Elementalist and Engineer getting a second weapon that can be swapped when out of combat?

Can we Thieves get something along that line... some kind of Out of Combat boost? Perhaps a natural ability to completely refill the initiative pool every time combat begins? OoC initiative wouldn't be touched, so we cannot infinitely Shortbow around the map instantly. But OoC would trigger the reset... if we are Shortbowing around the map as normal Out of Combat, we can immediately engage in a fight when we get there even if we used all our initiative on Infiltrator's Arrow. As soon as the first hit is scored, our initiative goes to full, then everything else proceeds as normal.

Even if the initiative refill would only happen if it is the Thief that successfully initiates combat (i.e. if the Thief gets hit first, no refill takes place), that would still be a big boost to Thief effectiveness. People already complain about the Thief's mobility being so superior, this would at least make such mobility more deserving of those complaints.

[Sobx.1758]

@"Kageseigi.2150" said:Speaking of the upcoming patch, has anybody noticed the Elementalist and Engineer getting a second weapon that can be swapped when out of combat?

Can we Thieves get something along that line... some kind of Out of Combat boost? Perhaps a natural ability to completely refill the initiative pool every time combat begins?

They got a weapon swap that every player already had, but their single-weapon combat class design remains the same. They didn't get buffed, all they got was the ability to swap weapon OoC with a press of a key instead of doing it manually from inventory inbetween the fights. I'm not sure how you can think that change validates any kind of buff for other classes... It's not even "Out of Combat boost", it's a simple QoL change.

[babazhook.6805]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@KidRoleplay.3615 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:With the caveat that I do not yet know whether this trait will still carry the +120 conditional damage add to it and or if it will work with potent poison so as to add 2 stacks if potent taken, this is a boost to both D/D condition and p/d condition both of which use dual wield extensively in their rotations. The lack of an ICD just means more poison stacks overall when in those sets.

It's currently two stacks on

any

hit with a two second cooldown. It's changing to one stack though only on skills that use initiative. So the stacks are halved, and the zero cooldown is whatever since to try to get any meaningful stacks, you'll blow all your initiative. It's a nerf.

I am not talking about PvE.

In PvP the ICD is 10 seconds with 1 stack added. This change is a significant boost to PvP P/d and D/d .In WvW the current icd is 5 seconds for 2 stacks. This is still a a boost to both d/d and to P/d. D/d will garner more stacks with the change but P/d should also come out ahead as you can easily get two of the attack iterations off in that 5 second period each of these being 3 separate dual wields.

in PVE it a slight nerf to p/d (depending on how much you in fact use #3 ) and A wash in d/d given D/d tends to use a lot of Dblossoms (you can get three off in those two seconds for 6 stacks without much problem). You are not "blowing your initiative" when the new version will do more damage per initiative used then it does now.

As in currently if using DBlossom on a single target with d/d build I get three bleeds. With the new version I will get 3 bleeds and 1 poison. I am in fact getting more out of the 4 ini then the exisiting system. Given there no ICD all followup Dblossoms will add that poison as well. There will not be a 2 second cooldown.

How is this a boost to d/p?Other than black powder/heart seeker combo to get behind for a back stab auto's are ur main attacks which don't use ini.the other skills in the kit are useful only when needed in fight.

I stated it a boost to p/d and d/d condition. D/P is not traditionally a Condition build. That said as far as d/p goes you are playing that as power and all you need is one stack of poison in a power build on an ongoing basis to inhibit heals. D/P power is not reliant on deadly ambition currently as the serpents touch + dagger mh #1 attack chain both allow poison adds.

That said #3 in d/p power is used and will now add a poison in addition to the blind and port. That skill does become better. D/P is a wash. If you are in PvP as example, you are certainly going to use #3 on d/p once in 10 seconds. AsI mentioned before, if I was in PvP under the current system , I would take mug over DA and especially in d/p. I also do not see much merit in potent poison in a d/p power build.

[babazhook.6805]

@KidRoleplay.3615 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@KidRoleplay.3615 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:With the caveat that I do not yet know whether this trait will still carry the +120 conditional damage add to it and or if it will work with potent poison so as to add 2 stacks if potent taken, this is a boost to both D/D condition and p/d condition both of which use dual wield extensively in their rotations. The lack of an ICD just means more poison stacks overall when in those sets.

It's currently two stacks on

any

hit with a two second cooldown. It's changing to one stack though only on skills that use initiative. So the stacks are halved, and the zero cooldown is whatever since to try to get any meaningful stacks, you'll blow all your initiative. It's a nerf.

I am not talking about PvE.

In PvP the ICD is 10 seconds with 1 stack added. This change is a significant boost to PvP P/d and D/d .In WvW the current icd is 5 seconds for 2 stacks. This is still a a boost to both d/d and to P/d. D/d will garner more stacks with the change but P/d should also come out ahead as you can easily get two of the attack iterations off in that 5 second period each of these being 3 separate dual wields.

in PVE it a slight nerf to p/d (depending on how much you in fact use #3 ) and A wash in d/d given D/d tends to use a lot of Dblossoms (you can get three off in those two seconds for 6 stacks without much problem). You are not "blowing your initiative" when the new version will do more damage per initiative used then it does now.

As in currently if using DBlossom on a single target with d/d build I get three bleeds. With the new version I will get 3 bleeds and 1 poison. I am in fact getting more out of the 4 ini then the exisiting system. Given there no ICD all followup Dblossoms will add that poison as well. There will not be a 2 second cooldown.

Yep. Skill splits. A necessary annoyance. But yeah, I was only speaking of PvE. Remember, it's losing a stack, so getting 3 Death Blossoms off in 3 seconds is still only 3 stacks. No cooldown, sure, but I feel having it proc on anything that hits instead of specifically initiative is better, such that you'd get continual application as long as you keep hitting.

Edit: Re-read Potent Poison. So, I see your example. Though that would have been three stacks if Deadly Ambition wasn't losing one! Sad face...

Three stacks of poison would be too much IMO. Assuming in either d/d or p/d condition and that is three poison and 3 bleeds per deathblossom or a potential 9 add to poisons in a p/d shadowstrike/repeater/repeater rotation. Even in Pve that a lot. (this assumes of course that the Potent poison add works on this skill which it should under the description of said skill)

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@babazhook.6805 said:Again as far as p/d and d/d goes in condition builds and especially in PvP , this a significant boost. Outside of SB this does affect builds that I feel they never forsaw as being condition weapons (s/d rifle).

P/D prior to changes in PvP could see one posion stack add every 10 seconds and 2 with Potent Poison traited via deadly ambition.They can now get 2 stacks per number three use. In a 10 second period it relatively easy to get three full uses of the #3 cycle off which translates to 9 dual wield attacks. Yes they lose some poison on serpents touch but this a huge boost. D/D this even more pronounced.

In WvW which I play almost exclusively I see this a significant boost to p/d and d/d. It will hurt rifle condition and s/d condition.

SB sort of becomes the odd man out. Had they tied this just to the #3 skill , rifle condition and s/d condition would be even deadlier and way burstier.

Once patch day comes around I will seriously consider shifting my p/d condition build to core. my Grieving hybrid build might also go core albeit that will take a good amount of adjustments.

What will core offer that DE can't with these changes? The way I see it P/D will be just as dangerous on full condi since a full malice sneak attack with leeching venoms stacks and doom/torment sigils is pretty brutal even without deadly ambition. What this does is make all thief condi builds have a little more ramp up time, which isn't a bad thing at all really.

I can see your point about grieving stats on DE though, if you were running that gear with thorns runes you may now be better off with viper stats and tormenting runes. I think this is a better combo for DE anyways as it capitalises on the sneak attack plus leeching venoms for some very nice sustain and damage, you'll get less power damage but it'll still pack a punch.

Edit: the 120 condi damage is going to be the make or break point with the new version of the trait for me I think. Without that, I'd seriously consider taking mug instead.

[babazhook.6805]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:Again as far as p/d and d/d goes in condition builds and especially in PvP , this a significant boost. Outside of SB this does affect builds that I feel they never forsaw as being condition weapons (s/d rifle).

P/D prior to changes in PvP could see one posion stack add every 10 seconds and 2 with Potent Poison traited via deadly ambition.They can now get 2 stacks per number three use. In a 10 second period it relatively easy to get three full uses of the #3 cycle off which translates to 9 dual wield attacks. Yes they lose some poison on serpents touch but this a huge boost. D/D this even more pronounced.

In WvW which I play almost exclusively I see this a significant boost to p/d and d/d. It will hurt rifle condition and s/d condition.

SB sort of becomes the odd man out. Had they tied this just to the #3 skill , rifle condition and s/d condition would be even deadlier and way burstier.

Once patch day comes around I will seriously consider shifting my p/d condition build to core. my Grieving hybrid build might also go core albeit that will take a good amount of adjustments.

What will core offer that DE can't with these changes? The way I see it P/D will be just as dangerous on full condi since a full malice sneak attack with leeching venoms stacks and doom/torment sigils is pretty brutal even without deadly ambition. What this does is make all thief condi builds have a little more ramp up time, which isn't a bad thing at all really.

I can see your point about grieving stats on DE though, if you were running that gear with thorns runes you may now be better off with viper stats and tormenting runes. I think this is a better combo for DE anyways as it capitalises on the sneak attack plus leeching venoms for some very nice sustain and damage, you'll get less power damage but it'll still pack a punch.

Edit: the 120 condi damage is going to be the make or break point with the new version of the trait for me I think. Without that, I'd seriously consider taking mug instead.

With the incoming changes DA will be a must. P/d also better synergizes with SA than most weapons and SA is a must. What I get from TR Over DE is confusion, more boon removal and more condition removal. The 15 percent to condition damage out of lead attacks is nice too. You put that in with bleeds poisons torments and confusion there some hard ticking pulses in there. The poison stacks will tick an extra 20 percent on top of that turning 3 stacks into 4.

[JonnyForgotten.4276]

@babazhook.6805 said:Again as far as p/d and d/d goes in condition builds and especially in PvP , this a significant boost. Outside of SB this does affect builds that I feel they never forsaw as being condition weapons (s/d rifle).

P/D prior to changes in PvP could see one posion stack add every 10 seconds and 2 with Potent Poison traited via deadly ambition.They can now get 2 stacks per number three use. In a 10 second period it relatively easy to get three full uses of the #3 cycle off which translates to 9 dual wield attacks. Yes they lose some poison on serpents touch but this a huge boost. D/D this even more pronounced.

In WvW which I play almost exclusively I see this a significant boost to p/d and d/d. It will hurt rifle condition and s/d condition.

SB sort of becomes the odd man out. Had they tied this just to the #3 skill , rifle condition and s/d condition would be even deadlier and way burstier.

Once patch day comes around I will seriously consider shifting my p/d condition build to core. my Grieving hybrid build might also go core albeit that will take a good amount of adjustments.

Wouldn't s/d condi also benefit from this? Or is the loss off SB enough to hurt the build a little?

[babazhook.6805]

@JonnyForgotten.4276 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:Again as far as p/d and d/d goes in condition builds and especially in PvP , this a significant boost. Outside of SB this does affect builds that I feel they never forsaw as being condition weapons (s/d rifle).

P/D prior to changes in PvP could see one posion stack add every 10 seconds and 2 with Potent Poison traited via deadly ambition.They can now get 2 stacks per number three use. In a 10 second period it relatively easy to get three full uses of the #3 cycle off which translates to 9 dual wield attacks. Yes they lose some poison on serpents touch but this a huge boost. D/D this even more pronounced.

In WvW which I play almost exclusively I see this a significant boost to p/d and d/d. It will hurt rifle condition and s/d condition.

SB sort of becomes the odd man out. Had they tied this just to the #3 skill , rifle condition and s/d condition would be even deadlier and way burstier.

Once patch day comes around I will seriously consider shifting my p/d condition build to core. my Grieving hybrid build might also go core albeit that will take a good amount of adjustments.

Wouldn't s/d condi also benefit from this? Or is the loss off SB enough to hurt the build a little?

S/d condi tended to use #2 port in, dodge dodge and port out..repeat. They never used #3 a lot. I doubt it will change that much given s/d chooses 1 base stack on the immob and#2 or 1 base stack on the flanking strike with this add. Both take away INI but you are not really adding any poison over and above using s/d 3 in the changed environment over using s/d 2

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:Again as far as p/d and d/d goes in condition builds and especially in PvP , this a significant boost. Outside of SB this does affect builds that I feel they never forsaw as being condition weapons (s/d rifle).

P/D prior to changes in PvP could see one posion stack add every 10 seconds and 2 with Potent Poison traited via deadly ambition.They can now get 2 stacks per number three use. In a 10 second period it relatively easy to get three full uses of the #3 cycle off which translates to 9 dual wield attacks. Yes they lose some poison on serpents touch but this a huge boost. D/D this even more pronounced.

In WvW which I play almost exclusively I see this a significant boost to p/d and d/d. It will hurt rifle condition and s/d condition.

SB sort of becomes the odd man out. Had they tied this just to the #3 skill , rifle condition and s/d condition would be even deadlier and way burstier.

Once patch day comes around I will seriously consider shifting my p/d condition build to core. my Grieving hybrid build might also go core albeit that will take a good amount of adjustments.

What will core offer that DE can't with these changes? The way I see it P/D will be just as dangerous on full condi since a full malice sneak attack with leeching venoms stacks and doom/torment sigils is pretty brutal even without deadly ambition. What this does is make all thief condi builds have a little more ramp up time, which isn't a bad thing at all really.

I can see your point about grieving stats on DE though, if you were running that gear with thorns runes you may now be better off with viper stats and tormenting runes. I think this is a better combo for DE anyways as it capitalises on the sneak attack plus leeching venoms for some very nice sustain and damage, you'll get less power damage but it'll still pack a punch.

Edit: the 120 condi damage is going to be the make or break point with the new version of the trait for me I think. Without that, I'd seriously consider taking mug instead.

With the incoming changes DA will be a must. P/d also better synergizes with SA than most weapons and SA is a must. What I get from TR Over DE is confusion, more boon removal and more condition removal. The 15 percent to condition damage out of lead attacks is nice too. You put that in with bleeds poisons torments and confusion there some hard ticking pulses in there. The poison stacks will tick an extra 20 percent on top of that turning 3 stacks into 4.

Fair enough. I was mostly wondering what about the patch specifically makes you want to change really, it seems like you were already thinking of changing regardless of the trait change. I still think DE with the torment on sneak attack is going to be better, if only because the number of opponents running high resistance uptime builds is pretty low, and those builds are better fought with a dedicated boon rip build. Now build templates are a thing having several specialist builds works better than an all rounder, especially since thief gets to choose when the fight starts. I run cleansing sigil on rifle, hide in shadows and shadow step, I find that's enough cleanses to deal with anything provided I don't try to facetank, and the ini regen from M7 outweighs anything that trickery brings imo. If it works for you then by all means go for it tho :)

[babazhook.6805]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:Again as far as p/d and d/d goes in condition builds and especially in PvP , this a significant boost. Outside of SB this does affect builds that I feel they never forsaw as being condition weapons (s/d rifle).

P/D prior to changes in PvP could see one posion stack add every 10 seconds and 2 with Potent Poison traited via deadly ambition.They can now get 2 stacks per number three use. In a 10 second period it relatively easy to get three full uses of the #3 cycle off which translates to 9 dual wield attacks. Yes they lose some poison on serpents touch but this a huge boost. D/D this even more pronounced.

In WvW which I play almost exclusively I see this a significant boost to p/d and d/d. It will hurt rifle condition and s/d condition.

SB sort of becomes the odd man out. Had they tied this just to the #3 skill , rifle condition and s/d condition would be even deadlier and way burstier.

Once patch day comes around I will seriously consider shifting my p/d condition build to core. my Grieving hybrid build might also go core albeit that will take a good amount of adjustments.

What will core offer that DE can't with these changes? The way I see it P/D will be just as dangerous on full condi since a full malice sneak attack with leeching venoms stacks and doom/torment sigils is pretty brutal even without deadly ambition. What this does is make all thief condi builds have a little more ramp up time, which isn't a bad thing at all really.

I can see your point about grieving stats on DE though, if you were running that gear with thorns runes you may now be better off with viper stats and tormenting runes. I think this is a better combo for DE anyways as it capitalises on the sneak attack plus leeching venoms for some very nice sustain and damage, you'll get less power damage but it'll still pack a punch.

Edit: the 120 condi damage is going to be the make or break point with the new version of the trait for me I think. Without that, I'd seriously consider taking mug instead.

With the incoming changes DA will be a must. P/d also better synergizes with SA than most weapons and SA is a must. What I get from TR Over DE is confusion, more boon removal and more condition removal. The 15 percent to condition damage out of lead attacks is nice too. You put that in with bleeds poisons torments and confusion there some hard ticking pulses in there. The poison stacks will tick an extra 20 percent on top of that turning 3 stacks into 4.

Fair enough. I was mostly wondering what about the patch specifically makes you want to change really, it seems like you were already thinking of changing regardless of the trait change. I still think DE with the torment on sneak attack is going to be better, if only because the number of opponents running high resistance uptime builds is pretty low, and those builds are better fought with a dedicated boon rip build. Now build templates are a thing having several specialist builds works better than an all rounder, especially since thief gets to choose when the fight starts. I run cleansing sigil on rifle, hide in shadows and shadow step, I find that's enough cleanses to deal with anything provided I don't try to facetank, and the ini regen from M7 outweighs anything that trickery brings imo. If it works for you then by all means go for it tho :)

I have no problems with boon rip with as I am still in SA. Now the torment on sneak attack is predicated on having malice up there. The way I look at it it will always be easier to have your dual wield ready for those poison adds then it will having malice for torment.

The specific change I look at is that poison add on #3 . Now I can certainly get that on DE but because I will have MORE poison overall , and will tend to have lead attacks to max I am wanting the 20% from potent poison plus 15 percent from lead attacks to get those poison stacks higher. The more individual stacks you get of poison the better a percent bonus is.

Given this build will also have confusion on steal , torment, and a lot of bleed stacks 15 percent lead attacks will also affect each of those. It my estimation that overall this is getting more damage then the sneak attack torment with malice. Now the DE has a percent add for damage but that does not apply to conditions. If it did i would stick DE.

The one thing that concerns me is access to stealth and how much will I get. Thus want to take hidden thief so Trickster can help with Condition cleanses. I can still CnD for a stealth and will get one on the heal. I might have to trait blinding powder as well but that remains to be seen.

The other major thing is the steal. Core steal allows me to port to an opponent. I can do this and be stealthed when I get there. This will help set up a sneak attack (albeit no torment) followed by shadowstrike/repeater/repeater and with confusion on steal this a buttload of conditions at once. The poisons all tick 35 percent higher all the rest 15.

[Axl.8924]

Can condi still be done with this new trait in core or daredevil? im no expert just curious like D/D thief poison curious how effective it is in pve.

[babazhook.6805]

@Axl.8924 said:Can condi still be done with this new trait in core or daredevil? im no expert just curious like D/D thief poison curious how effective it is in pve.

Yes. I will assume you use d/d via deathblossom. Deathblossom takes 4 ini and 1/2 second per. Under existing you will get one poison app every 2 seconds plus the add of potent poison for 2. With the upcoming change you should get three deathblossoms off in those 2 seconds translating to 6 stacks as opposed to 2.

Now the old trait would apply on any weapon skill slot used with that cooldown but the d/d thief does not use the other skills all that much plus with the Cooldown even if you did INI for a dblossom takes 4 seconds to recover. Take away 2 seconds for the existing cooldown and you are talking at most one one attack. New version still wins.

Again this all IF the remember to turn it on with the potent poison trait (They overlooked that with the last changes and had to add that with a patch)