Buff PvE Thieves

[alejandro.2093]

im back again with my crusade of buff thief crusade in high end pve

most of the classes got their buffs and tweaks that most of them are 38k benchmarks minimum in the new upcoming SnowCrows benchmark, with easier rotation as far as the uploaded videos from their benchmarking partners

like i proposed several months ago, that most were against when i posted the changes, i will modestly proposed them once more

1. the trait Ferocious strikes should change its modifier from health to fury instead, so we will not lose any dps

2. the revealed training should be 120 power and 120 additional power when revealedinstead of the current iteration of 80 and 120, to make it in line with other traits like staff master or equilibrium

3. make the 15% modifier from dodge available in PvE as well, like the PvP/WvW counterpart

4. make the specific raid stolen skills instant so it will be palatable to cast and will not lose any DPS in the entire encounter

as far as the power is concerned we are lagging behind with the new times,

we dont even have a proper competitive conditions builds as far as raiding goes, in this i would like to see a 10 man increase for venomshare in pve only

[Bovan.9481]

I'll start off by saying that I like both your suggestions regarding Ferocious Strikes and Revealed Training. But beyond that I don't think Thief should be buffed to match the other classes, but other classes should be brought down. I'm not usually throwing the power creep statement around but I think it's really gotten out of control this time. When we are working on optimising phases which take 16-19 seconds in a raid I feel we've hit the point of it gone too far.

[pninak.1069]

I think you see this the wrong way. I actually think thief is overperforming in pve esspecially raids. not even a warrior can dish out as much dmg as a thief while just using skill 1. I believe too that most classes in gw2 use power builds. you got a small number of dominating condi builds only. like scourge and fb. but they actually got nerfed quite hard. What needs to be done is give more condi to classes that are mostly power based like thief and warrior. So classes should be given more possibilities to use different builds effectily compared to one build just dominating most of the class. The core necro/scourge/reaper is actually a good example of this.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@pninak.1069 said:I think you see this the wrong way. I actually think thief is overperforming in pve esspecially raids. not even a warrior can dish out as much dmg as a thief while just using skill 1. I believe too that most classes in gw2 use power builds. you got a small number of dominating condi builds only. like scourge and fb. but they actually got nerfed quite hard. What needs to be done is give more condi to classes that are mostly power based like thief and warrior. So classes should be given more possibilities to use different builds effectily compared to one build just dominating most of the class. The core necro/scourge/reaper is actually a good example of this.

Overperforming? Ummm warrior as an example can provide a group with far more than a thief, like far more. Thief can only provide dps so considering it does nothing else seems kinda appropriate I'd be on or near the tops for dps.

[alejandro.2093]

i agree with psycoprophet,

thief only does one thing DPS, we should not be lagging behind in that aspect

PS i dont discount that we have a niche support spec of boon farters

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

@pninak.1069 said:I think you see this the wrong way. I actually think thief is overperforming in pve esspecially raids. not even a warrior can dish out as much dmg as a thief while just using skill 1. I believe too that most classes in gw2 use power builds. you got a small number of dominating condi builds only. like scourge and fb. but they actually got nerfed quite hard. What needs to be done is give more condi to classes that are mostly power based like thief and warrior. So classes should be given more possibilities to use different builds effectily compared to one build just dominating most of the class. The core necro/scourge/reaper is actually a good example of this.

Warrior supplies more to the group than what the thief currently can. Thief only brings in damage in a pretty nasty bar break skill, and that's pretty much it. There's only one mechanic in all of the raids where having a thief is good. And that's simply a shortcut by unlocking a door.

Thieves are able to deal so much damage with a simple rotation, because their weapon skills essnetially behave as utilities, as their utilities are designed to be very situational, where very few are good in general use. That, and because of their initiative system - they can't actually blow an entire hotbar of abilities, and then swap weapons. The total cost of all weapon skills on thief far exceedes both their base and their extended init pools. And most weapon skills aren't designed for damage, but for something else.

That being said... I don't think thief should be buffed. I agree that the rest of the classes should be knocked down in PvE.

[alejandro.2093]

there is an unusual trend on Anets development, when they tone down a certain class that is overly performing in PvE, they tone down everyone to give a sense of justice/equality

that being said, even if they tone down other class' DPS, by in part they will also do some trimming on Thieves' end as well,

by in large it also defeats the purpose as a whole, we are still on the mediocre barrel of options, an "unwanted/undesirable" class as a DPS

therefore thieves must be in line or competitive against other DPS classes

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

The problem with PvE is, if you buff the Thief to have a better benchmark in raids, you effectively made them overpowered in other PvE encounters which makes the experience very boring. Raid encounters should be more than just DPS and beating the time. There should be strategies and Thief specific tasks involved that without a Thief, the encounter is still doable, but more difficult. This way, you have to bring a Thief since no one else can do that task and the consequence of not bringing a Thief is greater difficulty and high chance of failure.

A poor raid design is lumping the Thief with other DPS and not utilizing their full potential. Stealth and shadowstep is rarely needed other than to proc a trait. And if those aren't needed, why even bother taking a Thief when you can take a Guardian? Which is what we're seeing in a lot of raid compositions -- mass Guardians. This is proof that the raid designs are monotonous and as long as you locked in the holy trinity (tank, healer, dps - aka all Guardians), you're good.

So if the only deciding factor is the DPS benchmark, even if the Thief scores higher, it's just a DPS task that a Guardian/Warrior or Ranger can do. The raid has to be designed where a the expertise of the Thief is needed. Otherwise, why even bring a Thief?

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:The problem with PvE is, if you buff the Thief to have a better benchmark in raids, you effectively made them overpowered in other PvE encounters which makes the experience very boring. Raid encounters should be more than just DPS and beating the time. There should be strategies and Thief specific tasks involved that without a Thief, the encounter is still doable, but more difficult. This way, you have to bring a Thief since no one else can do that task and the consequence of not bringing a Thief is greater difficulty and high chance of failure.

A poor raid design is lumping the Thief with other DPS and not utilizing their full potential. Stealth and shadowstep is rarely needed other than to proc a trait. And if those aren't needed, why even bother taking a Thief when you can take a Guardian? Which is what we're seeing in a lot of raid compositions -- mass Guardians. This is proof that the raid designs are monotonous and as long as you locked in the holy trinity (tank, healer, dps - aka all Guardians), you're good.

So if the only deciding factor is the DPS benchmark, even if the Thief scores higher, it's just a DPS task that a Guardian/Warrior or Ranger can do. The raid has to be designed where a the expertise of the Thief is needed. Otherwise, why even bring a Thief?

Not to mention the special action key is often used to give a customized dash/blink to everyone. So even the shadowstep aspect is kinda here and there.

[pninak.1069]

I think it is the wrong way to put it all in dps. thief got still highest single target dmg in all game modes. and you keep whining that it isn't enough.

[UNOwen.7132]

@pninak.1069 said:I think it is the wrong way to put it all in dps. thief got still highest single target dmg in all game modes. and you keep whining that it isn't enough.

Thief doesnt have the highest single target dmg in any game mode. In PvE its outclassed by Elementalist (as always) and other condi builds. In PvP its outclassed by pretty much every single class, and it does not fare any better in WvW either. There is a reason why thief is only picked on 3 encounters, 2 of which are used exclusively for the stolen skill because it provides ridiculous amounts of boons. The only class that is picked less than Thief is Engineer. And that was pre-patch, post-patch I imagine Engineer might actually beat thief too.

[pninak.1069]

so you giving the same argument I did. rework some of the thief's abilities and trait lines to make it more group support. but I think you ignore the redone traps too. I personally think bringing dps meters into gw2 was a big mistake. I also believe that you should worry about other classes that could get the raid deal soon.

Since a lot of people seem to think raids are speedrun content I can give you a comparison to gw1. the scoosc (shards of orr dungeon) there you had a composition of dervish/assa(dmg dealers with self sustain) or reverse with a necro barbs gater. (dmg support) the idea was to use perma shadowform to not be able to get hit by the boss. But somehow later down the line the composition changed to ranger/derv (dmg dealer) and ritu. (dmg and cc support) The assa got obsolute although he never got a nerf and the other didn't really get buffs. It was a skill composition a lot of people missed.

And since a lot of people of gw2 seem very ignorant of all possibilies I wouldn't wonder if it really developed the same way sometime in the future.

[alejandro.2093]

https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

now that another benchmarking is up, even longbow rangers beat us up

we dont offer any group support we cant even offer good DPS lol

[Jobber.6348]

@UNOwen.7132 said:And that was pre-patch, post-patch I imagine Engineer might actually beat thief too.

I think they are close though.

@"Oldgrimm.8521" said:https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

now that another benchmarking is up, even longbow rangers beat us up

we dont offer any group support we cant even offer good DPS lol

Are we not counting Rifle DE as a Thief?

[UNOwen.7132]

@Yasai.3549 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:And that was pre-patch, post-patch I imagine Engineer might actually beat thief too.

I think they are close though.

3k off, so not quite, no.

@"Oldgrimm.8521" said:

https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

now that another benchmarking is up, even longbow rangers beat us up

we dont offer any group support we cant even offer good DPS lol

Are we not counting Rifle DE as a Thief?

The problem is that Rifle DEs benchmark is not the same as the benchmark of others. Rifle DEs rotation is very precise and most importantly, is bad when you need to move. As a result, it just tends to not be raid-viable on most bosses, and outclassed by lower benchmark builds on the bosses it is viable on.

[Jobber.6348]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

The problem is that Rifle DEs benchmark is not the same as the benchmark of others. Rifle DEs rotation is very precise and most importantly, is bad when you need to move. As a result, it just tends to not be raid-viable on most bosses, and outclassed by lower benchmark builds on the bosses it is viable on.

Ah gotcha.

[alejandro.2093]

and rifle DE does not even use the traits for dps in a pylon build, you use invigorating precision to self sustain

[alejandro.2093]

addendum: possible minor changes that will bring us up to par with at least 37k dps on Daredevil

3. make the 15% modifier from dodge available in PvE as well, like the PvP/WvW counterpart
4. make the specific raid stolen skills instant so it will be palatable to cast and will not lose any DPS in the entire encounter

[Rukia.4802]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:The problem with PvE is, if you buff the Thief to have a better benchmark in raids, you effectively made them overpowered in other PvE encounters which makes the experience very boring. Raid encounters should be more than just DPS and beating the time. There should be strategies and Thief specific tasks involved that without a Thief, the encounter is still doable, but more difficult. This way, you have to bring a Thief since no one else can do that task and the consequence of not bringing a Thief is greater difficulty and high chance of failure.

A poor raid design is lumping the Thief with other DPS and not utilizing their full potential. Stealth and shadowstep is rarely needed other than to proc a trait. And if those aren't needed, why even bother taking a Thief when you can take a Guardian? Which is what we're seeing in a lot of raid compositions -- mass Guardians. This is proof that the raid designs are monotonous and as long as you locked in the holy trinity (tank, healer, dps - aka all Guardians), you're good.

So if the only deciding factor is the DPS benchmark, even if the Thief scores higher, it's just a DPS task that a Guardian/Warrior or Ranger can do. The raid has to be designed where a the expertise of the Thief is needed. Otherwise, why even bring a Thief?

In FF14 the way they made my ninja raid / dungeon viable is having an ability that increases the damage my target takes by 5% for x seconds for the ENTIRE group, which ends up being a big raid dmg boost. It doesn't increase personal dps much, but makes me valuable and wanted in a raid where otherwise I would be just like thief.. only have dps nothing else.

[Skiravor.1257]

I solo mostly. On my necro, content is very easy. On my thief, that same content can be extremely challenging to impossible.

The survivability and initiative needs a buff for pve only.

[alejandro.2093]

UPDATE: now that the bugged assassins signet (for 7 years) that grants 15% damage modifier on top of 540 raw power is gone,

our damage will be on 32k-33k dps range. we are on the official unwanted high end PvE instance

or worse if my math is off will be on 30-31k DPS since 15% damage modifier is huge. since an update to other classes that gained 10% give them a boost from 34k dps to 38k DPS as of late eg ranger and engineer

[UNOwen.7132]

@"Oldgrimm.8521" said:UPDATE: now that the bugged assassins signet (for 7 years) that grants 15% damage modifier on top of 540 raw power is gone,

our damage will be on 32k-33k dps range. we are on the official unwanted high end PvE instance

or worse if my math is off will be on 30-31k DPS since 15% damage modifier is huge. since an update to other classes that gained 10% give them a boost from 34k dps to 38k DPS as of late eg ranger and engineer

Wait, was that bug active in PvP too?

[alejandro.2093]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"Oldgrimm.8521" said:UPDATE: now that the bugged assassins signet (for 7 years) that grants 15% damage modifier on top of 540 raw power is gone,

our damage will be on 32k-33k dps range. we are on the official unwanted high end PvE instance

or worse if my math is off will be on 30-31k DPS since 15% damage modifier is huge. since an update to other classes that gained 10% give them a boost from 34k dps to 38k DPS as of late eg ranger and engineer

Wait, was that bug active in PvP too?

yes, it was active in pvp as well, hence the fix

[UNOwen.7132]

@"Oldgrimm.8521" said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"Oldgrimm.8521" said:UPDATE: now that the bugged assassins signet (for 7 years) that grants 15% damage modifier on top of 540 raw power is gone,

our damage will be on 32k-33k dps range. we are on the official unwanted high end PvE instance

or worse if my math is off will be on 30-31k DPS since 15% damage modifier is huge. since an update to other classes that gained 10% give them a boost from 34k dps to 38k DPS as of late eg ranger and engineer

Wait, was that bug active in PvP too?

yes, it was active in pvp as well, hence the fix

Huh. So, essentially Thief just took a further 15% hit to their burst in PvP. Yeesh. Wonder if were gonna get any compensation.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

@pninak.1069 said:I think it is the wrong way to put it all in dps. thief got still highest single target dmg in all game modes. and you keep whining that it isn't enough.

No, just no.