Chronomancers state in Pvp/WvW

[viquing.8254]

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:I never saw a big balance issue with the Condi Chrono Hot meta or with glass Powershatterchrono during HoT.

There was a big balance issue but you didn't see it because the gap was between core and chrono (basically chrono was fine whereas core was trash.). Aka like @apharma.3741 and most mesmer talking about balance said : as long as there is CS and CP, base traits/skills have to take in account that they can be doubled which can never be balanced. Which is particulary visible for ulti like Time warp and Moa. And more visible for moa taken during HoT.Another example is how the phantasm rework get overused and nerfed to hell thanks to CP.

That's why I don't think mesmer can globally get good balance as long as CP double phantasms and CS double skills. And I'm not alone thinking this.

But now CP doesn't provide double phantasm anymore, it is a simple dmg mulitplier with even more counterplay. It has no balance issue anymore i would say. And when you give a decent amount of stat penalty to Chrono to trade off CS, then it is possible to get Chrono to a state where it is only around 20-30 % better than Core and only when played at max potential, to reward higher skill ceiling. The only question is, how much stat penalty you need to give to Chrono. Deleting CS or nerfing core stuff for the sake of Chrono is not needed at all then.

I know I didn't play chrono phantasm since a long time but as far as I know CP always pop 2 fantasms, so 2 attacks (= 2 boons clears from desenchanter.) and triger third on illusions summon trait (even if there is no more one clone between the phantasms.).About CS, if tomorrow they make time wrap the same CD as wind of disenchantment, I don't think that stat reduction will do the work, particulary since mesmer survival is all active.Nerfing core stuff for the sake of chrono is the situation since chrono pop and that's how many traits and skills are currently balanced.Deleting CS or reworking it is imo way more easier to do for next balancing than to have thinking about it each skill rework.

Trait description: The first time a phantasm would become a clone, it instead resummons itself and attacks again. Resummoned phantasms inflict a percentage of the original's damage. (Resummoned phantasms are briefly dazed.)-> No additional phantams from that trait. No additional clones from that trait. You cast one phantams with a skill and it just attacks 2 times before turning into a clone while even being dazed a short time inbetween. During that long time Chrono gets no clone from the phantasm and the phantasm can easy be killed or interrupted while it is up way longer before finishing its dmg rotation (actually would be more fair to just give summond phantams a 30-50% dmg buff on the first attack instead what CP does atm). With other words CP is a simple dmg buff now, just less strong than something like SC in Duelling what doesn't delay clone generation, works for all skills not only phantasms and for that cannot be countered by simple cleave or interrupt of the ai for the insane long duration the phantasm needs to finish his 2 attacks+ shortly being dazed.

Seems like the double phantams came from the unnecessary staff and gs gm trait for 2 phantams buff they did together with the phantasm rework. That was another point, the phantasm rework itself and then they also buffed certain traits/skills to give more phantams or clone generation (staff 3, gs gm trait in Domiation, scepter 2) while forgetting how that would turn Chrono into an illusion production machine. Chrono was way less of an issue before all those changes. Not to mention how unnecessary those double phantasm and double clone buffs were in the first place (also for core) because it contradicted opportunity costs in traits you had. A Mesmer at that point didn't need to decide between direct dmg buffs or more clone generation. All weapons now provided that many Illusions, there was no need to go for DE anymore to get the same amount of clones you had pre HoT with DE alone. -> op dmg buff for all Mesmer specs

Ok so that's what I mean how did you balance pDefender and pDisenchenter whith CP ? Because currently they attack twice with CP.So they currently haven't any impact in core and if you make then have impact, it has high chance to be boosted by CP.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@bravan.3876 you are missing the point of CP.disenchanter with CP attacks twice so it strips twice as many boons, defender attacks twice so it hard CC twice as many times.Disenchanter and defender are poo for a reason, and CP is the reason, when you look at long CD, long cast time, big telegraph 5 boon strip ability its just garbage.but when you look at it as 5 strips TWICE it starts to look enticing.CP is the reason why phantasms cant really be interesting, and its a BIG shame that mesmer has 0 playable phantasms on utility bar, and CP is to blame for it.

[bravan.3876]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"bravan.3876" you are missing the point of CP.disenchanter with CP attacks twice so it strips twice as many boons, defender attacks twice so it hard CC twice as many times.Disenchanter and defender are poo for a reason, and CP is the reason, when you look at long CD, long cast time, big telegraph 5 boon strip ability its just garbage.but when you look at it as 5 strips TWICE it starts to look enticing.CP is the reason why phantasms cant really be interesting, and its a BIG shame that mesmer has 0 playable phantasms on utility bar, and CP is to blame for it.

Why you assume that those phantams have to do what they do? They also got reworked and did compeltely other stuff than before the phantasm rework. Ofc they needed to be reworked because the old phantasm design was useless when phantasms cannot be up permanently anymore. But there are for certain other ways to rework them into something else fitting with the new "phantasms turn to clones after one attack mechanic". Those phantasm were even totally overbuffed in the first time hitting like 10k+ on a defensive orienteded phantasm. Also as said, even utility effects can be converted into quantifiable variables for offensive and defensive power and for that can be trade offed by stat penalty too, is that so hard to get? The only question is, how many stat penalty you give to make Chrono overall not more than around 10-30% stronger than core when played on maximum potential.

Gosh Anet did so much nonsense to Mesmer in the last 2 years, i wonder who had to leave the office few months after PoF release (maybe working for Amazon now since then?), that one was the one with brain and class knowledge and it is time to get him back into the office. Because the ppl working on Mesmer balance since around 2 years have obviously no clue at all what they are doing.

[viquing.8254]

@bravan.3876 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@bravan.3876 you are missing the point of CP.disenchanter with CP attacks twice so it strips twice as many boons, defender attacks twice so it hard CC twice as many times.Disenchanter and defender are poo for a reason, and CP is the reason, when you look at long CD, long cast time, big telegraph 5 boon strip ability its just garbage.but when you look at it as 5 strips TWICE it starts to look enticing.CP is the reason why phantasms cant really be interesting, and its a BIG shame that mesmer has 0 playable phantasms on utility bar, and CP is to blame for it.

Why you assume that those phantams have to do what they do? They also got reworked and did compeltely other stuff than before the phantasm rework. Ofc they needed to be reworked because the old phantasm design was useless when phantasms cannot be up permanently anymore. But there are for certain other ways to rework them into something else fitting with the new "phantasms turn to clones after one attack mechanic". Those phantasm were even totally overbuffed in the first time hitting like 10k+ on a defensive orienteded phantasm. Also as said, even utility effects can be converted into quantifiable variables for offensive and defensive power and for that can be trade offed by stat penalty too, is that so hard to get? The only question is, how many stat penalty you give to make Chrono overall not more than around 10-30% stronger than core when played on maximum potential.

Gosh Anet did so much nonsense to Mesmer in the last 2 years, i wonder who had to leave the office few months after PoF release (maybe working for Amazon now since then?), that one was the one with brain and class knowledge and it is time to get him back into the office. Because the ppl working on Mesmer balance since around 2 years have obviously no clue at all what they are doing.

Ok but If I was a dev I would prefer get rid of CP than having to mind if the stat ajustment is fine each time I do a core change.And CS problem on ulti isn't solved as explained.

[bravan.3876]

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@bravan.3876 you are missing the point of CP.disenchanter with CP attacks twice so it strips twice as many boons, defender attacks twice so it hard CC twice as many times.Disenchanter and defender are poo for a reason, and CP is the reason, when you look at long CD, long cast time, big telegraph 5 boon strip ability its just garbage.but when you look at it as 5 strips TWICE it starts to look enticing.CP is the reason why phantasms cant really be interesting, and its a BIG shame that mesmer has 0 playable phantasms on utility bar, and CP is to blame for it.

Why you assume that those phantams have to do what they do? They also got reworked and did compeltely other stuff than before the phantasm rework. Ofc they needed to be reworked because the old phantasm design was useless when phantasms cannot be up permanently anymore. But there are for certain other ways to rework them into something else fitting with the new "phantasms turn to clones after one attack mechanic". Those phantasm were even totally overbuffed in the first time hitting like 10k+ on a defensive orienteded phantasm. Also as said, even utility effects can be converted into quantifiable variables for offensive and defensive power and for that can be trade offed by stat penalty too, is that so hard to get? The only question is, how many stat penalty you give to make Chrono overall not more than around 10-30% stronger than core when played on maximum potential.

Gosh Anet did so much nonsense to Mesmer in the last 2 years, i wonder who had to leave the office few months after PoF release (maybe working for Amazon now since then?), that one was the one with brain and class knowledge and it is time to get him back into the office. Because the ppl working on Mesmer balance since around 2 years have obviously no clue at all what they are doing.

Ok but If I was a dev I would prefer get rid of CP than having to mind if the stat ajustment is fine each time I do a core change.

You are literally saying that deleting elite mechanics will make balancing the game easier. That is true. Just lets delete all elite traitlines so they do not need to be considered into balance questions anymore. If we also delete core traitlines balancing will be even easier! Lets also think about that maybe xD

CS problem on ulti is solved when Chrono has to give up dmg and sustain from stat penalty as trade off only to get a lower cd on elite and some utility effects. Also as mentioned: even utility effects can be converted into quantifiable variables for offensive and defensive power and for that can be trade offed by stat penalty too. But if you bother that much about double elite than make CS not work on elites. Should be possible to do for Anet, because they also could make Signet of Illusion not resetting CS.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@bravan.3876 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@bravan.3876 you are missing the point of CP.disenchanter with CP attacks twice so it strips twice as many boons, defender attacks twice so it hard CC twice as many times.Disenchanter and defender are poo for a reason, and CP is the reason, when you look at long CD, long cast time, big telegraph 5 boon strip ability its just garbage.but when you look at it as 5 strips TWICE it starts to look enticing.CP is the reason why phantasms cant really be interesting, and its a BIG shame that mesmer has 0 playable phantasms on utility bar, and CP is to blame for it.

Why you assume that those phantams have to do what they do? They also got reworked and did compeltely other stuff than before the phantasm rework. Ofc they needed to be reworked because the old phantasm design was useless when phantasms cannot be up permanently anymore. But there are for certain other ways to rework them into something else fitting with the new "phantasms turn to clones after one attack mechanic". Those phantasm were even totally overbuffed in the first time hitting like 10k+ on a defensive orienteded phantasm. Also as said, even utility effects can be converted into quantifiable variables for offensive and defensive power and for that can be trade offed by stat penalty too, is that so hard to get? The only question is, how many stat penalty you give to make Chrono overall not more than around 10-30% stronger than core when played on maximum potential.

Gosh Anet did so much nonsense to Mesmer in the last 2 years, i wonder who had to leave the office few months after PoF release (maybe working for Amazon now since then?), that one was the one with brain and class knowledge and it is time to get him back into the office. Because the ppl working on Mesmer balance since around 2 years have obviously no clue at all what they are doing.

your logic is flawed as usual, its much easier to rebalance CP and CS then it is to rebalance every single phantasm to fit CP AND fit other specs and be usefull.And since they are doing less then bare minimum none of it will happen.

[bravan.3876]

Let me just quote myself here:

@bravan.3876 said:You are literally saying that deleting elite mechanics will make balancing the game easier. That is true. Just lets delete all elite traitlines so they do not need to be considered into balance questions anymore. If we also delete core traitlines balancing will be even easier! Lets also think about that maybe xD

When you only adjust on the Chronoside of the drama, then there is no need to nerf phantasm on core, when Chrono has the trade off to give up dmg and sustain just to get some more utiltiy effects then there is no problem. Defines Chrono as utiltiy spec as it was meant to be anyway even more. Where is the problem?

CS problem on ulti is solved when Chrono has to give up dmg and sustain from stat penalty as trade off only to get a lower cd on elite and some utility effects. Also as mentioned: even utility effects can be converted into quantifiable variables for offensive and defensive power and for that can be trade offed by stat penalty too. But if you bother that much about double elite than make CS not work on elites. Should be possible to do for Anet, because they also could make Signet of Illusion not resetting CS.

[apharma.3741]

@Quadox.7834 said:The fact that core is currently stronger than chrono and hes been for a long time is unequivocal proof that CS can be balanced with a sufficient tradeoff, prove me wrong.

This is like saying that in a knife fight you can use guns without ammo and it's weaker than a sword. While it is true under that condition as soon as you get ammo gun wins. As soon as chrono doesn't feel like a terrible piece of garbage to use it wins because power multipliers are a plenty.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@bravan.3876 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

So wait, you say that CI was broken but PB is not?There the same! Rupt do x, rupt do y!Who even uses autos? Autos are used either when you've nothing else to do or you're not under pressure.I'm not confusing lockdown with rupts. Again, rupts in a spam game have too much profit for little effort, you don't have to time jackkitten.

You just proved that you do not get the difference between an interrupt and a lock down otherwise you would understand the difference between PB and old CI.

Old CI was a lock down (immob+daze acts like a hard cc, like a stun for example, it prefends skill use and dodging and moving, all together, that is called a lock down means something that is not used for interrupts, the main purpose is to trap the target, make it unable to do anything and and hit follow up dmg skills/ combos). A very strong finisher move. Those skills giving a lock down ability have for good reasons good animations and decent casttime (like Warrior Hammer cc skills for example). Old CI trait + MoD was comparable to making Warrior Hammer cc skills range and instant. Even more, old CI was worse/stronger than a simple stun, because it needs a condi clear AND a stunbreak to be countered and for that was the strongest form of control and killer mechanic in the game. Problematic balancewise even without instant range MoD.

No stun, knockdown etc should be instant in this game. It is a killer mechanic, should have counterplay in terms of avoidance by reactiontime based on animations and casttime, because getting traped in a lock down or lock down chain without a stunbreak rdy means death in most cases. The only exceptions are fear and taunt (because both can be removed by condi cleanse without any stunbreak and are for that a lower hard cc category. I still think both should have better animations and more casttime and should not be instant, at least when max range but that is another story. I just explain the balance logic, the reasons why you find instant fear and taunt skills in the game, what got reduced with the big patch already too btw).Instant stun from old CS trait just as old CI got reworked for good reasons, they contradicted healthy balance and balance logic insanely hard. While PB is not a killer. The reward from PB is so low, that even with the current amount of cc a sword Mirage has, you will never win any fight with random interupts on autoattack or with accidently lucky interrupt on a keyskill here and there. that is probably the reason a lot of Mesmer mains think it is currently to weak, while it is just balanced. That is the difference why PB is balance in a game where interrupts work on autoattack (what could be discussed to be changed but in the end there is no reason, that autoattack spam should not be punishable by interrupt builds, AS LONG AS the interrupt reward is not too strong). PB complied those balance logic requirements amoung GW2 mechanics. Old CI and old CS did not. Both were lock downs should never be range and instant. CI was even more than a simple stun and for that problematic even without MoD. Also interrupts with torch 5 and sword ambush from Mesmer and clones have even more counterplay because they have casttime/animation and are for that no balance issue at all. They are, as you mentioned yourself, pretty weak interrupt tools because they are not instant while only providing low impact daze and that very short in duration. Gs5 is not an interrupt tool, it is a hard cc lock down skill.

The point is there is no difference between PB and CI, both rely on rupts, rupts you'll hit every single time because foe is always casting something, it's the nature of the game.So, in game in it's current state they're both broken. In a game with a resource mechanic in which you need half a brain to manage your skills, both traits would be fair.

Instant stun from the old CS trait was reworked because of qq, not because of good reasons. Otherwise other instant stuns that are on game would be deleted as well.PB is an easy damage bonus+weakness+15sec cd. Again, in the current state of the game (spam spam spam), this trait should be deleted or get an ICD (which it current has, although small), it helps win some fights for sure and no, you don't need to interrupt crucial skills, you've plenty of rupt potential to waste some.Yes, torch 5 and sw ambush have counterplay hence why I said interrupt potential, not interrupts because they're not interrupts, same with GS5, it has interrupt potential, I never said it was an interrupt, although it is more of an interrupt than torch 5 and sw ambush that's for sure (1/2 sec cast).

[bravan.3876]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

So wait, you say that CI was broken but PB is not?There the same! Rupt do x, rupt do y!Who even uses autos? Autos are used either when you've nothing else to do or you're not under pressure.I'm not confusing lockdown with rupts. Again, rupts in a spam game have too much profit for little effort, you don't have to time jackkitten.

You just proved that you do not get the difference between an interrupt and a lock down otherwise you would understand the difference between PB and old CI.

Old CI was a lock down (immob+daze acts like a hard cc, like a stun for example, it prefends skill use and dodging and moving, all together, that is called a lock down means something that is not used for interrupts, the main purpose is to trap the target, make it unable to do anything and and hit follow up dmg skills/ combos). A very strong finisher move. Those skills giving a lock down ability have for good reasons good animations and decent casttime (like Warrior Hammer cc skills for example). Old CI trait + MoD was comparable to making Warrior Hammer cc skills range and instant. Even more, old CI was worse/stronger than a simple stun, because it needs a condi clear AND a stunbreak to be countered and for that was the strongest form of control and killer mechanic in the game. Problematic balancewise even without instant range MoD.

No stun, knockdown etc should be instant in this game. It is a killer mechanic, should have counterplay in terms of avoidance by reactiontime based on animations and casttime, because getting traped in a lock down or lock down chain without a stunbreak rdy means death in most cases. The only exceptions are fear and taunt (because both can be removed by condi cleanse without any stunbreak and are for that a lower hard cc category. I still think both should have better animations and more casttime and should not be instant, at least when max range but that is another story. I just explain the balance logic, the reasons why you find instant fear and taunt skills in the game, what got reduced with the big patch already too btw).Instant stun from old CS trait just as old CI got reworked for good reasons, they contradicted healthy balance and balance logic insanely hard. While PB is not a killer. The reward from PB is so low, that even with the current amount of cc a sword Mirage has, you will never win any fight with random interupts on autoattack or with accidently lucky interrupt on a keyskill here and there. that is probably the reason a lot of Mesmer mains think it is currently to weak, while it is just balanced. That is the difference why PB is balance in a game where interrupts work on autoattack (what could be discussed to be changed but in the end there is no reason, that autoattack spam should not be punishable by interrupt builds, AS LONG AS the interrupt reward is not too strong). PB complied those balance logic requirements amoung GW2 mechanics. Old CI and old CS did not. Both were lock downs should never be range and instant. CI was even more than a simple stun and for that problematic even without MoD. Also interrupts with torch 5 and sword ambush from Mesmer and clones have even more counterplay because they have casttime/animation and are for that no balance issue at all. They are, as you mentioned yourself, pretty weak interrupt tools because they are not instant while only providing low impact daze and that very short in duration. Gs5 is not an interrupt tool, it is a hard cc lock down skill.

The point is there is no difference between PB and CI, both rely on rupts, rupts you'll hit every single time because foe is always casting something, it's the nature of the game.So, in game in it's current state they're both broken. In a game with a resource mechanic in which you need half a brain to manage your skills, both traits would be fair.

Instant stun from the old CS trait was reworked because of qq, not because of good reasons. Otherwise other instant stuns that are on game would be deleted as well.PB is an easy damage bonus+weakness+15sec cd. Again, in the current state of the game (spam spam spam), this trait should be deleted or get an ICD (which it current has, although small), it helps win some fights for sure and no, you don't need to interrupt crucial skills, you've plenty of rupt potential to waste some.Yes, torch 5 and sw ambush have counterplay hence why I said interrupt potential, not interrupts because they're not interrupts, same with GS5, it has interrupt potential, I never said it was an interrupt, although it is more of an interrupt than torch 5 and sw ambush that's for sure (1/2 sec cast).

Ok so for you a bite is also always a bite. No difference if a mosquito bites you for 0,0001% litre of your blood and a little itching or a snake bites you what will kill you in less than one hour. Makes sense! The most important interrupt reward on PB doesn't even work on autoattacks rofl but ok it is all the same. The ICD is only a bug and not intended as far as i heard, no argument at all. ICD on interrupt traits do not make sense (also on stackable condi effects ICDs are less of a problem than on a direct effect like higher interupt cd what changes rotations and for that have way more active influence on a fight, if such an interrupt reward gets an ICD and becomes more or less random it would kill all skill cieling and mind gaming and tactical purpose of the interrupt).

Can you show me how you win vs decent player with an PB interrupt Mirage with only random spamming your cc and only hitting autoattacks, maybe here and there a random skill or nothing most of the time? Because logic is not on your side here, i at least need some footage prove. Also have fun using PB for the little dmg and weakness on autoattacks when you could use MA instead for more bonus dmg on all shatters you then also only need to spam (hit), not to think about it at all, no need to interrupt anything. PB clearly has a trade off and a higher skill ceiling and when you play it bad you will not win any fight with it, simply because even 10 mosquito bites (PB on autoattacks) will not kill you, while one snake bite (old CI on autoattack) is enough.

GS5 is a hard cc lock down and for that has a totally different purpose than an interrupt tool like MoD. Just like Warrior hammer skills. Ofc they CAN interrupt, longer cast skills and shorter cast skills on prediction, but that is still not their main purpose. The lock down to hit follow ups is their main purpose and a lock down should never be instant (in particular when also range).

[Quadox.7834]

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:I never saw a big balance issue with the Condi Chrono Hot meta or with glass Powershatterchrono during HoT.

There was a big balance issue but you didn't see it because the gap was between core and chrono (basically chrono was fine whereas core was trash.). Aka like @apharma.3741 and most mesmer talking about balance said : as long as there is CS and CP, base traits/skills have to take in account that they can be doubled which can never be balanced. Which is particulary visible for ulti like Time warp and Moa. And more visible for moa taken during HoT.Another example is how the phantasm rework get overused and nerfed to hell thanks to CP.

That's why I don't think mesmer can globally get good balance as long as CP double phantasms and CS double skills. And I'm not alone thinking this.

Btw the Teapot VoD was cringe as hell when it comes to Mesmer balance. CmC was not even able to say a single word to the nonsense mess they did to both Mesmer elites. He didn't answer a single question about Mesmer balance and didn't react at all to Teapot saying that Mesmer got kind of butchered (even in WvW only a 2 skill bot). The only Mesmer relevant information was a statement not even directed to Mesmer, that they mainly try to make the one playstyle work they had in mind while creating the spec. That explains why neither Powershatterchrono nor Powermirage get any attention and no one cares when those (more healthy and better designed playstyles) get totally up due to balancing out the main playstyle they see in their (limited) visions. Means they only care for Mirage as a condispam spec, what is ironical because as i descripted the power ambushes are way better designed. Anet doesn't make sense at all when it comes to Mesmer. Because just reworking condi ambushes would have solved all issues from Condimirage way better than the one dodge change and that even without overkilling powerplaystyle as a spin of and without contradicting basic and elite mechanics and deleting skill cieling/tactical deepness/ mechanical complexity and without making the whole spec even more passive and dodgespammy on cd. Just as the IP deletion and the f4 deletion are completely nonsense on Chrono.Interesting, did you have direct link to this ?

@Quadox.7834 said:The fact that core is currently stronger than chrono and hes been for a long time is unequivocal proof that CS

can

be balanced with a sufficient tradeoff, prove me wrong.

Which is hell to balance and for the moment we never get chrono at the same level as core : either core is trash and chrono is fine, either chrono is trash while chrono is fine.

• the facts that some base mesmers mechanic (phantasm/uti.) can't logicaly be core balanced as long as they can be doubled.

You just stated the same thing again, as I told you the fact that core is better than chrono despite the fact that the latter can double the former's skills, proves that it can be balanced and that you are wrong.

[Quadox.7834]

@apharma.3741 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Tayga.3192 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:lower CD and lower its impact.Idea I had was to make it baseline LOW cd like 10-15s.Make it NOT remove clones ( no longer a shatter )Last set duration dunno how long could be split for pvp/pve. 2-5s depending on mode would be good.Increase its duration depending on abilities used during Csplit. For example it gets 50% cd of skills used during its duration.Example, I use csplit and gs2+gs3+f1 shatter.Csplit resets those cooldowns and goes on cd equal to 50% off gs2 + 50% off gs3 + 50% off f1 + flat 10-15s.That way you can decide to use it as a pseudo invuln on low cd 10-15 but you cant attack or it goes on longer cooldown, it also doesnt remove condis so it would be bad version of disort on lower cd, or you can use it offensively but it goes on much longer cooldown, and you no longer can abuse things like long cd heroic + shield 5 + blink + other long cds becouse it will go on 200s cd and you wont use it for years.

I think 30s-35s cd baseline with 33% of used skills is a good idea. This way, Moa + CS = 94.4s cooldown which is understandable. This way, your small skills like gs2 etc won't affect CS that much.

They could juggle with numbers, numbers can always be fine tuned. Most important thing is to make the idea actually have a reason to exist.They could make every skill add flat CD + % of their cooldown for example, so mesmer doesnt bombard people with 5+ low cd skills for example. Would prevent from double GS bursting or at least put a real cooldown on it. Just brainstorming, in reality noting will change and chrono will remain the worst spec in the game, as it was decided to be couple of months ago.

So basically your idea is to give chrono free mimic but for multiple skills not just 1. You still run foul of the double up problem where if any skill is worth doubling up on it's going to always be doubled up on which is the biggest problem with CS in every game mode. It's the reason it had to be nerfed in PvE, PvP and WvW into the current state of not being able to use it without clones because no matter the skill if it's strong it's worth doubling up on and the entire class has to suffer for it.

Better off making CS grant alacrity, has counterplay and you can actually buff it with concentration/improved alacrity without worrying about it utterly shattering all balance by cool down. Or we can be SUPER lazy and do the whole steal a mechanic from another class and make CS work like Improvisation except it only works on utilities that are on cool down.

Why you guys make it that complicated? When something gets more cds in his skill kit you just have to lower the power lvl of the skill ensemble with more cds by lowering the power lvl of each single skill compared to a power lvl of a single skill in a skill ensemble with less cds available. Simple stat penalty as they did with Scrapper are more than enough to trade off a more in cds a mechanic like CS adds. Means when Chrono can do a double gs burst the 2 bursts should have around 130% of the impact from a single Core Mesmer burst (and not like 200% as it was pre trade off), more than 100% from core simply to reward the higher skill requirement a little bit. It is the same with Fb tomes. Deleting or contradicting the mechanic itself or contradicting underlying basic mechanics to trade off or nerf elites is bad and not needed for a good balance.

A Chrono trade off could be for example: -100 power, -50 vita, -50 toughness in addition to the shatter f1,f2 rework (maybe add a rework to f4 to link the invuln duration to alacrity or quickness uptime on the Chrono or somehting like that and not to the number of clones up anymore). For that you put CS back on f5 , give IP back and f4 in a rework form back.

This is the least insightful post I've seen you make. You literally miss the problem which is that continuum split doubles up on abilities (read: effects) which means that you can't simply give -300 power and call it a day because now the double burst hits for 130%. You miss that conditions aren't affected by this, so let's do -300 condition damage, you miss that boons aren't affected by this, so let's add -300 concentration etc etc. So you end up with an elite spec several hundred stat points down just equipping the elite spec and you don't have to be a genius to figure out it would feel terrible to play even with IP and distortion back.

This is also ignoring the other implications which is how do you balance something as outrageously big as time warp or moa? If their cool downs are lower than continuum split then you can always effectively gain double the skill just by having chronomancer, so their cool down has to be higher than continuum split to punish use outside of continuum split which then causes the problem of them being useless on everything else. How do you deal with double (quadruple) summoning phantasms without nerfing them into irrelevance everywhere else and that's without mentioning the additional effects like disenchanter and defender that even doubled up can be over bearing.

Which leads me back to what I said at the start of the entire thread and a couple of years ago now, continuum split as it is now shouldn't exist. Either make it give alacrity so it's a small chunk off every cool down when you use F4 or give it the improv treatment that randomises it to some degree but leaves out elites and heal.

why was mirage used over chrono, even before IP removal, if cont spit is so powerful?

Chrono was used when they made phantasmal disenchanter and defender actually good utility skills during PoF and because of chrono's nature of doubling up on everything and signet of either (meant you could octuple cast many of them) everything about that build was nerfed into the floor, with good reason but to this day many of those skills remain quite bad on core. However the unfortunate side effect for chrono was that it's rhythm was gone with the phantasm update and with the phantasm build nerfed down chrono became more clunky to play after these nerfs, roll on IP removal later.

Then there's the simple stunbreak on dodge then after nerfs dodge while stunned and have your clones do big damage while the enemy is mid animation so gets hit with loads of conditions for why mirage was used. Put simply for the majority of the time mirage just did more damage and did it via conditions which were more effective in a power meta when people take anti power utilities over cleanses. Add on that many traits outside of mirage were nerfed for mirage's sake and ultimately chrono kept getting hit on the only areas it was historically any good at.

@bravan.3876 The problem is, was and always will be that doubling or tripling up on not just 1 skill but multiple skills means it inherently has to be balanced at it's base with that in mind. It's not a healthy mechanic to have in the game and neither is chrono phantasm.

Interesting that your example of "when chrono was used" involved phantasms and specifically chronophantasma. Could it be that chronophantasma is the problem that should be removed and not CS as I have said all along? Just maybe?

[apharma.3741]

@Quadox.7834 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:I never saw a big balance issue with the Condi Chrono Hot meta or with glass Powershatterchrono during HoT.

There was a big balance issue but you didn't see it because the gap was between core and chrono (basically chrono was fine whereas core was trash.). Aka like @apharma.3741 and most mesmer talking about balance said : as long as there is CS and CP, base traits/skills have to take in account that they can be doubled which can never be balanced. Which is particulary visible for ulti like Time warp and Moa. And more visible for moa taken during HoT.Another example is how the phantasm rework get overused and nerfed to hell thanks to CP.

That's why I don't think mesmer can globally get good balance as long as CP double phantasms and CS double skills. And I'm not alone thinking this.

Btw the Teapot VoD was cringe as hell when it comes to Mesmer balance. CmC was not even able to say a single word to the nonsense mess they did to both Mesmer elites. He didn't answer a single question about Mesmer balance and didn't react at all to Teapot saying that Mesmer got kind of butchered (even in WvW only a 2 skill bot). The only Mesmer relevant information was a statement not even directed to Mesmer, that they mainly try to make the one playstyle work they had in mind while creating the spec. That explains why neither Powershatterchrono nor Powermirage get any attention and no one cares when those (more healthy and better designed playstyles) get totally up due to balancing out the main playstyle they see in their (limited) visions. Means they only care for Mirage as a condispam spec, what is ironical because as i descripted the power ambushes are way better designed. Anet doesn't make sense at all when it comes to Mesmer. Because just reworking condi ambushes would have solved all issues from Condimirage way better than the one dodge change and that even without overkilling powerplaystyle as a spin of and without contradicting basic and elite mechanics and deleting skill cieling/tactical deepness/ mechanical complexity and without making the whole spec even more passive and dodgespammy on cd. Just as the IP deletion and the f4 deletion are completely nonsense on Chrono.Interesting, did you have direct link to this ?

@Quadox.7834 said:The fact that core is currently stronger than chrono and hes been for a long time is unequivocal proof that CS

can

be balanced with a sufficient tradeoff, prove me wrong.

Which is hell to balance and for the moment we never get chrono at the same level as core : either core is trash and chrono is fine, either chrono is trash while chrono is fine.

• the facts that some base mesmers mechanic (phantasm/uti.) can't logicaly be core balanced as long as they can be doubled.

You just stated the same thing again, as I told you the fact that core is better than chrono despite the fact that the latter can double the former's skills,

proves

that it can be balanced and that you are wrong.

It's not "balanced" when it is in a state that is almost unplayable, chrono is not equal to anything at the moment, it's barely usable. Saying it's balanced is like chopping a leg off Usain Bolt to "balance" out that he's twice as fast as normal people and then getting him to compete in a 100m race vs an average Joe. It's not balance, it's mutilation.

Balance: "A situation in which different elements are equal or in the correct proportions."

https://www.lexico.com/definition/balance

[viquing.8254]

@Quadox.7834 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:I never saw a big balance issue with the Condi Chrono Hot meta or with glass Powershatterchrono during HoT.

There was a big balance issue but you didn't see it because the gap was between core and chrono (basically chrono was fine whereas core was trash.). Aka like @apharma.3741 and most mesmer talking about balance said : as long as there is CS and CP, base traits/skills have to take in account that they can be doubled which can never be balanced. Which is particulary visible for ulti like Time warp and Moa. And more visible for moa taken during HoT.Another example is how the phantasm rework get overused and nerfed to hell thanks to CP.

That's why I don't think mesmer can globally get good balance as long as CP double phantasms and CS double skills. And I'm not alone thinking this.

Btw the Teapot VoD was cringe as hell when it comes to Mesmer balance. CmC was not even able to say a single word to the nonsense mess they did to both Mesmer elites. He didn't answer a single question about Mesmer balance and didn't react at all to Teapot saying that Mesmer got kind of butchered (even in WvW only a 2 skill bot). The only Mesmer relevant information was a statement not even directed to Mesmer, that they mainly try to make the one playstyle work they had in mind while creating the spec. That explains why neither Powershatterchrono nor Powermirage get any attention and no one cares when those (more healthy and better designed playstyles) get totally up due to balancing out the main playstyle they see in their (limited) visions. Means they only care for Mirage as a condispam spec, what is ironical because as i descripted the power ambushes are way better designed. Anet doesn't make sense at all when it comes to Mesmer. Because just reworking condi ambushes would have solved all issues from Condimirage way better than the one dodge change and that even without overkilling powerplaystyle as a spin of and without contradicting basic and elite mechanics and deleting skill cieling/tactical deepness/ mechanical complexity and without making the whole spec even more passive and dodgespammy on cd. Just as the IP deletion and the f4 deletion are completely nonsense on Chrono.Interesting, did you have direct link to this ?

@Quadox.7834 said:The fact that core is currently stronger than chrono and hes been for a long time is unequivocal proof that CS

can

be balanced with a sufficient tradeoff, prove me wrong.

Which is hell to balance and for the moment we never get chrono at the same level as core : either core is trash and chrono is fine, either chrono is trash while chrono is fine.

• the facts that some base mesmers mechanic (phantasm/uti.) can't logicaly be core balanced as long as they can be doubled.

You just stated the same thing again, as I told you the fact that core is better than chrono despite the fact that the latter can double the former's skills,

proves

that it can be balanced and that you are wrong.

Because now chrono is balanced ? :D :D :D

@Quadox.7834 said :Interesting that your example of "when chrono was used" involved phantasms and specifically chronophantasma. Could it be that chronophantasma is the problem that should be removed and not CS as I have said all along? Just maybe?Yeah what about Moa who was never core used and was one of the main reason of chrono during HoT. Just because it reduced the CD (which is also why they up the CD of CS.).What about double blink/combo bursts (which can't be used now.).What about core ulti never buffed since April 30, 2013 for moa (moa get many nerf since this time.), June 23, 2015 for time wrap.CS and CP are the problem.Even if they balance the counterpart so that chrono is on par with core, they will have to do it each time they do a core rework which is why they should just git rid of theses two and put something else.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@bravan.3876 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

So wait, you say that CI was broken but PB is not?There the same! Rupt do x, rupt do y!Who even uses autos? Autos are used either when you've nothing else to do or you're not under pressure.I'm not confusing lockdown with rupts. Again, rupts in a spam game have too much profit for little effort, you don't have to time jackkitten.

You just proved that you do not get the difference between an interrupt and a lock down otherwise you would understand the difference between PB and old CI.

Old CI was a lock down (immob+daze acts like a hard cc, like a stun for example, it prefends skill use and dodging and moving, all together, that is called a lock down means something that is not used for interrupts, the main purpose is to trap the target, make it unable to do anything and and hit follow up dmg skills/ combos). A very strong finisher move. Those skills giving a lock down ability have for good reasons good animations and decent casttime (like Warrior Hammer cc skills for example). Old CI trait + MoD was comparable to making Warrior Hammer cc skills range and instant. Even more, old CI was worse/stronger than a simple stun, because it needs a condi clear AND a stunbreak to be countered and for that was the strongest form of control and killer mechanic in the game. Problematic balancewise even without instant range MoD.

No stun, knockdown etc should be instant in this game. It is a killer mechanic, should have counterplay in terms of avoidance by reactiontime based on animations and casttime, because getting traped in a lock down or lock down chain without a stunbreak rdy means death in most cases. The only exceptions are fear and taunt (because both can be removed by condi cleanse without any stunbreak and are for that a lower hard cc category. I still think both should have better animations and more casttime and should not be instant, at least when max range but that is another story. I just explain the balance logic, the reasons why you find instant fear and taunt skills in the game, what got reduced with the big patch already too btw).Instant stun from old CS trait just as old CI got reworked for good reasons, they contradicted healthy balance and balance logic insanely hard. While PB is not a killer. The reward from PB is so low, that even with the current amount of cc a sword Mirage has, you will never win any fight with random interupts on autoattack or with accidently lucky interrupt on a keyskill here and there. that is probably the reason a lot of Mesmer mains think it is currently to weak, while it is just balanced. That is the difference why PB is balance in a game where interrupts work on autoattack (what could be discussed to be changed but in the end there is no reason, that autoattack spam should not be punishable by interrupt builds, AS LONG AS the interrupt reward is not too strong). PB complied those balance logic requirements amoung GW2 mechanics. Old CI and old CS did not. Both were lock downs should never be range and instant. CI was even more than a simple stun and for that problematic even without MoD. Also interrupts with torch 5 and sword ambush from Mesmer and clones have even more counterplay because they have casttime/animation and are for that no balance issue at all. They are, as you mentioned yourself, pretty weak interrupt tools because they are not instant while only providing low impact daze and that very short in duration. Gs5 is not an interrupt tool, it is a hard cc lock down skill.

The point is there is no difference between PB and CI, both rely on rupts, rupts you'll hit every single time because foe is always casting something, it's the nature of the game.So, in game in it's current state they're both broken. In a game with a resource mechanic in which you need half a brain to manage your skills, both traits would be fair.

Instant stun from the old CS trait was reworked because of qq, not because of good reasons. Otherwise other instant stuns that are on game would be deleted as well.PB is an easy damage bonus+weakness+15sec cd. Again, in the current state of the game (spam spam spam), this trait should be deleted or get an ICD (which it current has, although small), it helps win some fights for sure and no, you don't need to interrupt crucial skills, you've plenty of rupt potential to waste some.Yes, torch 5 and sw ambush have counterplay hence why I said interrupt potential, not interrupts because they're not interrupts, same with GS5, it has interrupt potential, I never said it was an interrupt, although it is more of an interrupt than torch 5 and sw ambush that's for sure (1/2 sec cast).

Ok so for you a bite is also always a bite. No difference if a mosquito bites you for 0,0001% litre of your blood and a little itching or a snake bites you what will kill you in less than one hour. Makes sense! The most important interrupt reward on PB doesn't even work on autoattacks rofl but ok it is all the same. The ICD is only a bug and not intended as far as i heard, no argument at all. ICD on interrupt traits do not make sense (also on stackable condi effects ICDs are less of a problem than on a direct effect like higher interupt cd what changes rotations and for that have way more active influence on a fight, if such an interrupt reward gets an ICD and becomes more or less random it would kill all skill cieling and mind gaming and tactical purpose of the interrupt).

Can you show me how you win vs decent player with an PB interrupt Mirage with only random spamming your cc and only hitting autoattacks, maybe here and there a random skill or nothing most of the time? Because logic is not on your side here, i at least need some footage prove. Also have fun using PB for the little dmg and weakness on autoattacks when you could use MA instead for more bonus dmg on all shatters you then also only need to spam (hit), not to think about it at all, no need to interrupt anything. PB clearly has a trade off and a higher skill ceiling and when you play it bad you will not win any fight with it, simply because even 10 mosquito bites (PB on autoattacks) will not kill you, while one snake bite (old CI on autoattack) is enough.

GS5 is a hard cc lock down and for that has a totally different purpose than an interrupt tool like MoD. Just like Warrior hammer skills. Ofc they CAN interrupt, longer cast skills and shorter cast skills on prediction, but that is still not their main purpose. The lock down to hit follow ups is their main purpose and a lock down should never be instant (in particular when also range).

I feel like I'm repeating myself but here it goes, you never use autoattack unless 1- you've nothing else to do 2-you're not under pressure, so you're always interrupting skills which the PB bonus you're referring to works with.ICD on rupt traits make all the sense because you've to choose what to interrupt, aren't you always talking about making the game for skillfull, why the objection to a something that actually would make you think, instead of spamming rupts whenever you get a chance?The problem nowadays is that the rupt is all reward and no skill or do you think you need immense thought and asian reflexes to interrupt something in a game where you're always using skills.

And again the autoattack story fgs...The answer is above and in all posts I made in this thread.

I must be writing on chinese. I said and I quote " same with GS5, it has interrupt potential, I never said it was an interrupt, although it is more of an interrupt than torch 5 and sw ambush that's for sure (1/2 sec cast)". Which means GS5 is not an interrupt but has interrupt feature imbued into it, and by having a shorter activation time than sw ambush and torch 5 fills that role better than those.

[bravan.3876]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

So wait, you say that CI was broken but PB is not?There the same! Rupt do x, rupt do y!Who even uses autos? Autos are used either when you've nothing else to do or you're not under pressure.I'm not confusing lockdown with rupts. Again, rupts in a spam game have too much profit for little effort, you don't have to time jackkitten.

You just proved that you do not get the difference between an interrupt and a lock down otherwise you would understand the difference between PB and old CI.

Old CI was a lock down (immob+daze acts like a hard cc, like a stun for example, it prefends skill use and dodging and moving, all together, that is called a lock down means something that is not used for interrupts, the main purpose is to trap the target, make it unable to do anything and and hit follow up dmg skills/ combos). A very strong finisher move. Those skills giving a lock down ability have for good reasons good animations and decent casttime (like Warrior Hammer cc skills for example). Old CI trait + MoD was comparable to making Warrior Hammer cc skills range and instant. Even more, old CI was worse/stronger than a simple stun, because it needs a condi clear AND a stunbreak to be countered and for that was the strongest form of control and killer mechanic in the game. Problematic balancewise even without instant range MoD.

No stun, knockdown etc should be instant in this game. It is a killer mechanic, should have counterplay in terms of avoidance by reactiontime based on animations and casttime, because getting traped in a lock down or lock down chain without a stunbreak rdy means death in most cases. The only exceptions are fear and taunt (because both can be removed by condi cleanse without any stunbreak and are for that a lower hard cc category. I still think both should have better animations and more casttime and should not be instant, at least when max range but that is another story. I just explain the balance logic, the reasons why you find instant fear and taunt skills in the game, what got reduced with the big patch already too btw).Instant stun from old CS trait just as old CI got reworked for good reasons, they contradicted healthy balance and balance logic insanely hard. While PB is not a killer. The reward from PB is so low, that even with the current amount of cc a sword Mirage has, you will never win any fight with random interupts on autoattack or with accidently lucky interrupt on a keyskill here and there. that is probably the reason a lot of Mesmer mains think it is currently to weak, while it is just balanced. That is the difference why PB is balance in a game where interrupts work on autoattack (what could be discussed to be changed but in the end there is no reason, that autoattack spam should not be punishable by interrupt builds, AS LONG AS the interrupt reward is not too strong). PB complied those balance logic requirements amoung GW2 mechanics. Old CI and old CS did not. Both were lock downs should never be range and instant. CI was even more than a simple stun and for that problematic even without MoD. Also interrupts with torch 5 and sword ambush from Mesmer and clones have even more counterplay because they have casttime/animation and are for that no balance issue at all. They are, as you mentioned yourself, pretty weak interrupt tools because they are not instant while only providing low impact daze and that very short in duration. Gs5 is not an interrupt tool, it is a hard cc lock down skill.

The point is there is no difference between PB and CI, both rely on rupts, rupts you'll hit every single time because foe is always casting something, it's the nature of the game.So, in game in it's current state they're both broken. In a game with a resource mechanic in which you need half a brain to manage your skills, both traits would be fair.

Instant stun from the old CS trait was reworked because of qq, not because of good reasons. Otherwise other instant stuns that are on game would be deleted as well.PB is an easy damage bonus+weakness+15sec cd. Again, in the current state of the game (spam spam spam), this trait should be deleted or get an ICD (which it current has, although small), it helps win some fights for sure and no, you don't need to interrupt crucial skills, you've plenty of rupt potential to waste some.Yes, torch 5 and sw ambush have counterplay hence why I said interrupt potential, not interrupts because they're not interrupts, same with GS5, it has interrupt potential, I never said it was an interrupt, although it is more of an interrupt than torch 5 and sw ambush that's for sure (1/2 sec cast).

Ok so for you a bite is also always a bite. No difference if a mosquito bites you for 0,0001% litre of your blood and a little itching or a snake bites you what will kill you in less than one hour. Makes sense! The most important interrupt reward on PB doesn't even work on autoattacks rofl but ok it is all the same. The ICD is only a bug and not intended as far as i heard, no argument at all. ICD on interrupt traits do not make sense (also on stackable condi effects ICDs are less of a problem than on a direct effect like higher interupt cd what changes rotations and for that have way more active influence on a fight, if such an interrupt reward gets an ICD and becomes more or less random it would kill all skill cieling and mind gaming and tactical purpose of the interrupt).

Can you show me how you win vs decent player with an PB interrupt Mirage with only random spamming your cc and only hitting autoattacks, maybe here and there a random skill or nothing most of the time? Because logic is not on your side here, i at least need some footage prove. Also have fun using PB for the little dmg and weakness on autoattacks when you could use MA instead for more bonus dmg on all shatters you then also only need to spam (hit), not to think about it at all, no need to interrupt anything. PB clearly has a trade off and a higher skill ceiling and when you play it bad you will not win any fight with it, simply because even 10 mosquito bites (PB on autoattacks) will not kill you, while one snake bite (old CI on autoattack) is enough.

GS5 is a hard cc lock down and for that has a totally different purpose than an interrupt tool like MoD. Just like Warrior hammer skills. Ofc they CAN interrupt, longer cast skills and shorter cast skills on prediction, but that is still not their main purpose. The lock down to hit follow ups is their main purpose and a lock down should never be instant (in particular when also range).

I feel like I'm repeating myself but here it goes, you never use autoattack unless 1- you've nothing else to do 2-you're not under pressure, so you're always interrupting skills which the PB bonus you're referring to works with.ICD on rupt traits make all the sense because you've to choose what to interrupt, aren't you always talking about making the game for skillfull, why the objection to a something that actually would make you think, instead of spamming rupts whenever you get a chance?The problem nowadays is that the rupt is all reward and no skill or do you think you need immense thought and asian reflexes to interrupt something in a game where you're always using skills.

And again the autoattack story fgs...The answer is above and in all posts I made in this thread.

I must be writing on chinese. I said and I quote " same with GS5, it has interrupt potential, I never said it was an interrupt, although it is more of an interrupt than torch 5 and sw ambush that's for sure (1/2 sec cast)". Which means GS5 is not an interrupt but has interrupt feature imbued into it, and by having a shorter activation time than sw ambush and torch 5 fills that role better than those.

You don't get that it is not the point that gs5 CAN interrupt. It is a lock down cc and that will always be its main purpose. While troch 5 and sword leap cannot lock down at all. That is a big difference in skill design.

First: Ppl do use autoattacks what the hell are you talking? Second: What i said still counts for random interrupts at random moments for other skills too. Snake (old CI) hits you one time lucky with a braindead random spammed interrupt on whatever and you are dead, PB hits you 10 times without any tactical manner and you are maybe annoyed but you kill the Mesmer in the end and laugh. PB is balanced in the environment of GW2 (where interrupts also work on autoattack and where the gameplay is fast paced, or more negative from your PoV said: spammy) because PB reward is weak enough to make it not impactful enough when you only random spam your interrupt tools, while old CI never was balanced no matter how many cds on the interrupt tools or how many ICD you would give to it. PB is weaker than the trait alternatives a Mesmer can chose at this place the moment you do not use it near its skill cap and tactical and on right skills at right moment most of the time and it needs more skill than other dmg boni traits because it at least requires an interrupt additionally to the simple hit (spam). While old CI was a one hit killer without the need to care what it even interrupts (even autoattack is enough), it had no counterplay at all because no one can cover every single skill use for the whole fight duration. Means running away and not fighting was your only option to not die or you had nearly infinite cover tools, what no one had, not even the lamest and biggest hardcounterbuild. Ofc the interrupt reward design itself just also as how high or low the impact of the reward is, is relvant for the question if it is balaced and skillful or not. I cannot believe that even such obvious basics need a wall of text discussion. Unbelievable. I also will not restart why ICD on interrupt traits makes no sense at all. You are so obviously logically wrong, it doesn't worth the effort to explain it again.But go ahead believe what you want, interrupt is interrupt, no matter how the interrupt reward is desingned. Bite is bite, no matter of how big his consequences are. Fighting a good or a bad interrupt Mesmer makes no difference at all (you are at least right with old CI, there it was rly no difference). As said logic is not on your side here. Some footage would be nice. Further discussion seems absolutely pointless.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@bravan.3876 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

So wait, you say that CI was broken but PB is not?There the same! Rupt do x, rupt do y!Who even uses autos? Autos are used either when you've nothing else to do or you're not under pressure.I'm not confusing lockdown with rupts. Again, rupts in a spam game have too much profit for little effort, you don't have to time jackkitten.

You just proved that you do not get the difference between an interrupt and a lock down otherwise you would understand the difference between PB and old CI.

Old CI was a lock down (immob+daze acts like a hard cc, like a stun for example, it prefends skill use and dodging and moving, all together, that is called a lock down means something that is not used for interrupts, the main purpose is to trap the target, make it unable to do anything and and hit follow up dmg skills/ combos). A very strong finisher move. Those skills giving a lock down ability have for good reasons good animations and decent casttime (like Warrior Hammer cc skills for example). Old CI trait + MoD was comparable to making Warrior Hammer cc skills range and instant. Even more, old CI was worse/stronger than a simple stun, because it needs a condi clear AND a stunbreak to be countered and for that was the strongest form of control and killer mechanic in the game. Problematic balancewise even without instant range MoD.

No stun, knockdown etc should be instant in this game. It is a killer mechanic, should have counterplay in terms of avoidance by reactiontime based on animations and casttime, because getting traped in a lock down or lock down chain without a stunbreak rdy means death in most cases. The only exceptions are fear and taunt (because both can be removed by condi cleanse without any stunbreak and are for that a lower hard cc category. I still think both should have better animations and more casttime and should not be instant, at least when max range but that is another story. I just explain the balance logic, the reasons why you find instant fear and taunt skills in the game, what got reduced with the big patch already too btw).Instant stun from old CS trait just as old CI got reworked for good reasons, they contradicted healthy balance and balance logic insanely hard. While PB is not a killer. The reward from PB is so low, that even with the current amount of cc a sword Mirage has, you will never win any fight with random interupts on autoattack or with accidently lucky interrupt on a keyskill here and there. that is probably the reason a lot of Mesmer mains think it is currently to weak, while it is just balanced. That is the difference why PB is balance in a game where interrupts work on autoattack (what could be discussed to be changed but in the end there is no reason, that autoattack spam should not be punishable by interrupt builds, AS LONG AS the interrupt reward is not too strong). PB complied those balance logic requirements amoung GW2 mechanics. Old CI and old CS did not. Both were lock downs should never be range and instant. CI was even more than a simple stun and for that problematic even without MoD. Also interrupts with torch 5 and sword ambush from Mesmer and clones have even more counterplay because they have casttime/animation and are for that no balance issue at all. They are, as you mentioned yourself, pretty weak interrupt tools because they are not instant while only providing low impact daze and that very short in duration. Gs5 is not an interrupt tool, it is a hard cc lock down skill.

The point is there is no difference between PB and CI, both rely on rupts, rupts you'll hit every single time because foe is always casting something, it's the nature of the game.So, in game in it's current state they're both broken. In a game with a resource mechanic in which you need half a brain to manage your skills, both traits would be fair.

Instant stun from the old CS trait was reworked because of qq, not because of good reasons. Otherwise other instant stuns that are on game would be deleted as well.PB is an easy damage bonus+weakness+15sec cd. Again, in the current state of the game (spam spam spam), this trait should be deleted or get an ICD (which it current has, although small), it helps win some fights for sure and no, you don't need to interrupt crucial skills, you've plenty of rupt potential to waste some.Yes, torch 5 and sw ambush have counterplay hence why I said interrupt potential, not interrupts because they're not interrupts, same with GS5, it has interrupt potential, I never said it was an interrupt, although it is more of an interrupt than torch 5 and sw ambush that's for sure (1/2 sec cast).

Ok so for you a bite is also always a bite. No difference if a mosquito bites you for 0,0001% litre of your blood and a little itching or a snake bites you what will kill you in less than one hour. Makes sense! The most important interrupt reward on PB doesn't even work on autoattacks rofl but ok it is all the same. The ICD is only a bug and not intended as far as i heard, no argument at all. ICD on interrupt traits do not make sense (also on stackable condi effects ICDs are less of a problem than on a direct effect like higher interupt cd what changes rotations and for that have way more active influence on a fight, if such an interrupt reward gets an ICD and becomes more or less random it would kill all skill cieling and mind gaming and tactical purpose of the interrupt).

Can you show me how you win vs decent player with an PB interrupt Mirage with only random spamming your cc and only hitting autoattacks, maybe here and there a random skill or nothing most of the time? Because logic is not on your side here, i at least need some footage prove. Also have fun using PB for the little dmg and weakness on autoattacks when you could use MA instead for more bonus dmg on all shatters you then also only need to spam (hit), not to think about it at all, no need to interrupt anything. PB clearly has a trade off and a higher skill ceiling and when you play it bad you will not win any fight with it, simply because even 10 mosquito bites (PB on autoattacks) will not kill you, while one snake bite (old CI on autoattack) is enough.

GS5 is a hard cc lock down and for that has a totally different purpose than an interrupt tool like MoD. Just like Warrior hammer skills. Ofc they CAN interrupt, longer cast skills and shorter cast skills on prediction, but that is still not their main purpose. The lock down to hit follow ups is their main purpose and a lock down should never be instant (in particular when also range).

I feel like I'm repeating myself but here it goes, you never use autoattack unless 1- you've nothing else to do 2-you're not under pressure, so you're always interrupting skills which the PB bonus you're referring to works with.ICD on rupt traits make all the sense because you've to choose what to interrupt, aren't you always talking about making the game for skillfull, why the objection to a something that actually would make you think, instead of spamming rupts whenever you get a chance?The problem nowadays is that the rupt is all reward and no skill or do you think you need immense thought and asian reflexes to interrupt something in a game where you're always using skills.

And again the autoattack story fgs...The answer is above and in all posts I made in this thread.

I must be writing on chinese. I said and I quote " same with GS5, it has interrupt potential, I never said it was an interrupt, although it is more of an interrupt than torch 5 and sw ambush that's for sure (1/2 sec cast)". Which means GS5 is not an interrupt but has interrupt feature imbued into it, and by having a shorter activation time than sw ambush and torch 5 fills that role better than those.

You don't get that it is not the point that gs5 CAN interrupt. It is a lock down cc and that will always be its main purpose. While troch 5 and sword leap cannot lock down at all. That is a big difference in skill design.

First: Ppl do use autoattacks what the hell are you talking? Second: What i said still counts for random interrupts at random moments for other skills too. Snake (old CI) hits you one time lucky with a braindead random spammed interrupt on whatever and you are dead, PB hits you 10 times without any tactical manner and you are maybe annoyed but you kill the Mesmer in the end and laugh. PB is balanced in the environment of GW2 (where interrupts also work on autoattack and where the gameplay is fast paced, or more negative from your PoV said: spammy) because PB reward is weak enough to make it not impactful enough when you only random spam your interrupt tools, while old CI never was balanced no matter how many cds on the interrupt tools or how many ICD you would give to it. PB is weaker than the trait alternatives a Mesmer can chose at this place the moment you do not use it near its skill cap and tactical and on right skills at right moment most of the time and it needs more skill than other dmg boni traits because it at least requires an interrupt additionally to the simple hit (spam). While old CI was a one hit killer without the need to care what it even interrupts (even autoattack is enough), it had no counterplay at all because no one can cover every single skill use for the whole fight duration. Means running away and not fighting was your only option to not die or you had nearly infinite cover tools, what no one had, not even the lamest and biggest hardcounterbuild. Ofc the interrupt reward design itself just also as how high or low the impact of the reward is, is relvant for the question if it is balaced and skillful or not. I cannot believe that even such obvious basics need a wall of text discussion. Unbelievable. I also will not restart why ICD on interrupt traits makes no sense at all. You are so obviously logically wrong, it doesn't worth the effort to explain it again.But go ahead believe what you want, interrupt is interrupt, no matter how the interrupt reward is desingned. Bite is bite, no matter of how big his consequences are. Fighting a good or a bad interrupt Mesmer makes no difference at all (you are at least right with old CI, there it was rly no difference). As said logic is not on your side here. Some footage would be nice. Further discussion seems absolutely pointless.

The main purpose of GS5 depends on the circunstances. If you never used GS5 to interrupt something maybe you're the one who needs mesmer lessons?As for torch5 and sw ambush all they're good for is setting up a burst or in case of sw ambush preemptive rupt.

Now I'm absolute sure I'm writing on chinese. Did I said people don't use autos? I said people use autos on two conditions and those two alone, again if you ever used autos, specially on mesmer, whose autos are absolute trash, where they didn't fall out on those two conditions maybe you're the one who needs mesmer lessons.

Both CI and PB hits you on braindead random spammed interrupts since this game is all about spam, PB has no fucking tactical manner, not without an ICD or the amount of rupt potential lowered. If you had only 2 oe 3 rupt potential in one build yeah, you had to think carefully and time your rupts. With 5 or 6, some with low cd, free damage +15sec cd (assuming the bug is fixed) , not a chance you've to be a tactical master and asian reflexes god.The old CI was there almost since release and it only saw use and qq once mirage started using it with condis and sw ambush, this shows how broken the trait was in itself...Reduce the amount of rupts on a mesmer build to 2 or 3 and you can bring back CI without any problem at all.Again point is: rupting in this game is braindead easy since the nature of the game is spam how to solve it? plenty of ways, lower the interrupt potential, ICD the traits, introduce energy management.

[bravan.3876]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

So wait, you say that CI was broken but PB is not?There the same! Rupt do x, rupt do y!Who even uses autos? Autos are used either when you've nothing else to do or you're not under pressure.I'm not confusing lockdown with rupts. Again, rupts in a spam game have too much profit for little effort, you don't have to time jackkitten.

You just proved that you do not get the difference between an interrupt and a lock down otherwise you would understand the difference between PB and old CI.

Old CI was a lock down (immob+daze acts like a hard cc, like a stun for example, it prefends skill use and dodging and moving, all together, that is called a lock down means something that is not used for interrupts, the main purpose is to trap the target, make it unable to do anything and and hit follow up dmg skills/ combos). A very strong finisher move. Those skills giving a lock down ability have for good reasons good animations and decent casttime (like Warrior Hammer cc skills for example). Old CI trait + MoD was comparable to making Warrior Hammer cc skills range and instant. Even more, old CI was worse/stronger than a simple stun, because it needs a condi clear AND a stunbreak to be countered and for that was the strongest form of control and killer mechanic in the game. Problematic balancewise even without instant range MoD.

No stun, knockdown etc should be instant in this game. It is a killer mechanic, should have counterplay in terms of avoidance by reactiontime based on animations and casttime, because getting traped in a lock down or lock down chain without a stunbreak rdy means death in most cases. The only exceptions are fear and taunt (because both can be removed by condi cleanse without any stunbreak and are for that a lower hard cc category. I still think both should have better animations and more casttime and should not be instant, at least when max range but that is another story. I just explain the balance logic, the reasons why you find instant fear and taunt skills in the game, what got reduced with the big patch already too btw).Instant stun from old CS trait just as old CI got reworked for good reasons, they contradicted healthy balance and balance logic insanely hard. While PB is not a killer. The reward from PB is so low, that even with the current amount of cc a sword Mirage has, you will never win any fight with random interupts on autoattack or with accidently lucky interrupt on a keyskill here and there. that is probably the reason a lot of Mesmer mains think it is currently to weak, while it is just balanced. That is the difference why PB is balance in a game where interrupts work on autoattack (what could be discussed to be changed but in the end there is no reason, that autoattack spam should not be punishable by interrupt builds, AS LONG AS the interrupt reward is not too strong). PB complied those balance logic requirements amoung GW2 mechanics. Old CI and old CS did not. Both were lock downs should never be range and instant. CI was even more than a simple stun and for that problematic even without MoD. Also interrupts with torch 5 and sword ambush from Mesmer and clones have even more counterplay because they have casttime/animation and are for that no balance issue at all. They are, as you mentioned yourself, pretty weak interrupt tools because they are not instant while only providing low impact daze and that very short in duration. Gs5 is not an interrupt tool, it is a hard cc lock down skill.

The point is there is no difference between PB and CI, both rely on rupts, rupts you'll hit every single time because foe is always casting something, it's the nature of the game.So, in game in it's current state they're both broken. In a game with a resource mechanic in which you need half a brain to manage your skills, both traits would be fair.

Instant stun from the old CS trait was reworked because of qq, not because of good reasons. Otherwise other instant stuns that are on game would be deleted as well.PB is an easy damage bonus+weakness+15sec cd. Again, in the current state of the game (spam spam spam), this trait should be deleted or get an ICD (which it current has, although small), it helps win some fights for sure and no, you don't need to interrupt crucial skills, you've plenty of rupt potential to waste some.Yes, torch 5 and sw ambush have counterplay hence why I said interrupt potential, not interrupts because they're not interrupts, same with GS5, it has interrupt potential, I never said it was an interrupt, although it is more of an interrupt than torch 5 and sw ambush that's for sure (1/2 sec cast).

Ok so for you a bite is also always a bite. No difference if a mosquito bites you for 0,0001% litre of your blood and a little itching or a snake bites you what will kill you in less than one hour. Makes sense! The most important interrupt reward on PB doesn't even work on autoattacks rofl but ok it is all the same. The ICD is only a bug and not intended as far as i heard, no argument at all. ICD on interrupt traits do not make sense (also on stackable condi effects ICDs are less of a problem than on a direct effect like higher interupt cd what changes rotations and for that have way more active influence on a fight, if such an interrupt reward gets an ICD and becomes more or less random it would kill all skill cieling and mind gaming and tactical purpose of the interrupt).

Can you show me how you win vs decent player with an PB interrupt Mirage with only random spamming your cc and only hitting autoattacks, maybe here and there a random skill or nothing most of the time? Because logic is not on your side here, i at least need some footage prove. Also have fun using PB for the little dmg and weakness on autoattacks when you could use MA instead for more bonus dmg on all shatters you then also only need to spam (hit), not to think about it at all, no need to interrupt anything. PB clearly has a trade off and a higher skill ceiling and when you play it bad you will not win any fight with it, simply because even 10 mosquito bites (PB on autoattacks) will not kill you, while one snake bite (old CI on autoattack) is enough.

GS5 is a hard cc lock down and for that has a totally different purpose than an interrupt tool like MoD. Just like Warrior hammer skills. Ofc they CAN interrupt, longer cast skills and shorter cast skills on prediction, but that is still not their main purpose. The lock down to hit follow ups is their main purpose and a lock down should never be instant (in particular when also range).

I feel like I'm repeating myself but here it goes, you never use autoattack unless 1- you've nothing else to do 2-you're not under pressure, so you're always interrupting skills which the PB bonus you're referring to works with.ICD on rupt traits make all the sense because you've to choose what to interrupt, aren't you always talking about making the game for skillfull, why the objection to a something that actually would make you think, instead of spamming rupts whenever you get a chance?The problem nowadays is that the rupt is all reward and no skill or do you think you need immense thought and asian reflexes to interrupt something in a game where you're always using skills.

And again the autoattack story fgs...The answer is above and in all posts I made in this thread.

I must be writing on chinese. I said and I quote " same with GS5, it has interrupt potential, I never said it was an interrupt, although it is more of an interrupt than torch 5 and sw ambush that's for sure (1/2 sec cast)". Which means GS5 is not an interrupt but has interrupt feature imbued into it, and by having a shorter activation time than sw ambush and torch 5 fills that role better than those.

You don't get that it is not the point that gs5 CAN interrupt. It is a lock down cc and that will always be its main purpose. While troch 5 and sword leap cannot lock down at all. That is a big difference in skill design.

First: Ppl do use autoattacks what the hell are you talking? Second: What i said still counts for random interrupts at random moments for other skills too. Snake (old CI) hits you one time lucky with a braindead random spammed interrupt on whatever and you are dead, PB hits you 10 times without any tactical manner and you are maybe annoyed but you kill the Mesmer in the end and laugh. PB is balanced in the environment of GW2 (where interrupts also work on autoattack and where the gameplay is fast paced, or more negative from your PoV said: spammy) because PB reward is weak enough to make it not impactful enough when you only random spam your interrupt tools, while old CI never was balanced no matter how many cds on the interrupt tools or how many ICD you would give to it. PB is weaker than the trait alternatives a Mesmer can chose at this place the moment you do not use it near its skill cap and tactical and on right skills at right moment most of the time and it needs more skill than other dmg boni traits because it at least requires an interrupt additionally to the simple hit (spam). While old CI was a one hit killer without the need to care what it even interrupts (even autoattack is enough), it had no counterplay at all because no one can cover every single skill use for the whole fight duration. Means running away and not fighting was your only option to not die or you had nearly infinite cover tools, what no one had, not even the lamest and biggest hardcounterbuild. Ofc the interrupt reward design itself just also as how high or low the impact of the reward is, is relvant for the question if it is balaced and skillful or not. I cannot believe that even such obvious basics need a wall of text discussion. Unbelievable. I also will not restart why ICD on interrupt traits makes no sense at all. You are so obviously logically wrong, it doesn't worth the effort to explain it again.But go ahead believe what you want, interrupt is interrupt, no matter how the interrupt reward is desingned. Bite is bite, no matter of how big his consequences are. Fighting a good or a bad interrupt Mesmer makes no difference at all (you are at least right with old CI, there it was rly no difference). As said logic is not on your side here. Some footage would be nice. Further discussion seems absolutely pointless.

The main purpose of GS5 depends on the circunstances. If you never used GS5 to interrupt something maybe you're the one who needs mesmer lessons?As for torch5 and sw ambush all they're good for is setting up a burst or in case of sw ambush preemptive rupt.

Now I'm absolute sure I'm writing on chinese. Did I said people don't use autos? I said people use autos on two conditions and those two alone, again if you ever used autos, specially on mesmer, whose autos are absolute trash, where they didn't fall out on those two conditions maybe you're the one who needs mesmer lessons.

Both CI and PB hits you on braindead random spammed interrupts since this game is all about spam, PB has no kitten tactical manner, not without an ICD or the amount of rupt potential lowered. If you had only 2 oe 3 rupt potential in one build yeah, you had to think carefully and time your rupts. With 5 or 6, some with low cd, free damage +15sec cd (assuming the bug is fixed) , not a chance you've to be a tactical master and asian reflexes god.The old CI was there almost since release and it only saw use and qq once mirage started using it with condis and sw ambush, this shows how broken the trait was in itself...Reduce the amount of rupts on a mesmer build to 2 or 3 and you can bring back CI without any problem at all.Again point is: rupting in this game is braindead easy since the nature of the game is spam how to solve it? plenty of ways, lower the interrupt potential, ICD the traits, introduce energy management.

On nearly all classes i use autoattacks and i see others do that too. No clue what you peeps do in WvW... The 2 main purposes you called are already enough to have plenty of opportunities to interrupt autoattacks, what you even on about, i don't get what you even want to say. Makes no sense.Maybe i write in chinese because i clearly said you can interrupt but you also can interrupt with a 2 sec shield bash stun too, still not its main purpose. Gs 5 main purpose is either lock down or pure defensive messure to get distance again (Anet had gs autoattack in mind, doing more dmg in range and tried to create a synergy here). The short casttime ofc also gives it an interrupt purpose but that is secondary. Why we talk about that? It is not even relevant.

To all other stuff you said: No i think you are wrong with like everything but i give up. Footage or it never happend. And old CI will never be balanced or skilled because it is a killer mechanic, one lucky random interrupt on an autoattack can be enough to get a kill, it has zero counterplay when looking at the whole fight duration, because you cannot time your counters like stabi to anything. You would need to cover yourself the whole f...reaking fight. Also as a control that needs a stunbreak and a condiremove to get removed it is even problematic without instant range interrupts like MoD. In particular on a class with (nearly) oneshot potential (condi as power) and range interrupts. Means for Mesmer? Never, not even when only using one interrupt skill with 1hour CD or ICD on the trait (exaggerated).

To the topic: Buff chrono!

And Thief!

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@bravan.3876 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

So wait, you say that CI was broken but PB is not?There the same! Rupt do x, rupt do y!Who even uses autos? Autos are used either when you've nothing else to do or you're not under pressure.I'm not confusing lockdown with rupts. Again, rupts in a spam game have too much profit for little effort, you don't have to time jackkitten.

You just proved that you do not get the difference between an interrupt and a lock down otherwise you would understand the difference between PB and old CI.

Old CI was a lock down (immob+daze acts like a hard cc, like a stun for example, it prefends skill use and dodging and moving, all together, that is called a lock down means something that is not used for interrupts, the main purpose is to trap the target, make it unable to do anything and and hit follow up dmg skills/ combos). A very strong finisher move. Those skills giving a lock down ability have for good reasons good animations and decent casttime (like Warrior Hammer cc skills for example). Old CI trait + MoD was comparable to making Warrior Hammer cc skills range and instant. Even more, old CI was worse/stronger than a simple stun, because it needs a condi clear AND a stunbreak to be countered and for that was the strongest form of control and killer mechanic in the game. Problematic balancewise even without instant range MoD.

No stun, knockdown etc should be instant in this game. It is a killer mechanic, should have counterplay in terms of avoidance by reactiontime based on animations and casttime, because getting traped in a lock down or lock down chain without a stunbreak rdy means death in most cases. The only exceptions are fear and taunt (because both can be removed by condi cleanse without any stunbreak and are for that a lower hard cc category. I still think both should have better animations and more casttime and should not be instant, at least when max range but that is another story. I just explain the balance logic, the reasons why you find instant fear and taunt skills in the game, what got reduced with the big patch already too btw).Instant stun from old CS trait just as old CI got reworked for good reasons, they contradicted healthy balance and balance logic insanely hard. While PB is not a killer. The reward from PB is so low, that even with the current amount of cc a sword Mirage has, you will never win any fight with random interupts on autoattack or with accidently lucky interrupt on a keyskill here and there. that is probably the reason a lot of Mesmer mains think it is currently to weak, while it is just balanced. That is the difference why PB is balance in a game where interrupts work on autoattack (what could be discussed to be changed but in the end there is no reason, that autoattack spam should not be punishable by interrupt builds, AS LONG AS the interrupt reward is not too strong). PB complied those balance logic requirements amoung GW2 mechanics. Old CI and old CS did not. Both were lock downs should never be range and instant. CI was even more than a simple stun and for that problematic even without MoD. Also interrupts with torch 5 and sword ambush from Mesmer and clones have even more counterplay because they have casttime/animation and are for that no balance issue at all. They are, as you mentioned yourself, pretty weak interrupt tools because they are not instant while only providing low impact daze and that very short in duration. Gs5 is not an interrupt tool, it is a hard cc lock down skill.

The point is there is no difference between PB and CI, both rely on rupts, rupts you'll hit every single time because foe is always casting something, it's the nature of the game.So, in game in it's current state they're both broken. In a game with a resource mechanic in which you need half a brain to manage your skills, both traits would be fair.

Instant stun from the old CS trait was reworked because of qq, not because of good reasons. Otherwise other instant stuns that are on game would be deleted as well.PB is an easy damage bonus+weakness+15sec cd. Again, in the current state of the game (spam spam spam), this trait should be deleted or get an ICD (which it current has, although small), it helps win some fights for sure and no, you don't need to interrupt crucial skills, you've plenty of rupt potential to waste some.Yes, torch 5 and sw ambush have counterplay hence why I said interrupt potential, not interrupts because they're not interrupts, same with GS5, it has interrupt potential, I never said it was an interrupt, although it is more of an interrupt than torch 5 and sw ambush that's for sure (1/2 sec cast).

Ok so for you a bite is also always a bite. No difference if a mosquito bites you for 0,0001% litre of your blood and a little itching or a snake bites you what will kill you in less than one hour. Makes sense! The most important interrupt reward on PB doesn't even work on autoattacks rofl but ok it is all the same. The ICD is only a bug and not intended as far as i heard, no argument at all. ICD on interrupt traits do not make sense (also on stackable condi effects ICDs are less of a problem than on a direct effect like higher interupt cd what changes rotations and for that have way more active influence on a fight, if such an interrupt reward gets an ICD and becomes more or less random it would kill all skill cieling and mind gaming and tactical purpose of the interrupt).

Can you show me how you win vs decent player with an PB interrupt Mirage with only random spamming your cc and only hitting autoattacks, maybe here and there a random skill or nothing most of the time? Because logic is not on your side here, i at least need some footage prove. Also have fun using PB for the little dmg and weakness on autoattacks when you could use MA instead for more bonus dmg on all shatters you then also only need to spam (hit), not to think about it at all, no need to interrupt anything. PB clearly has a trade off and a higher skill ceiling and when you play it bad you will not win any fight with it, simply because even 10 mosquito bites (PB on autoattacks) will not kill you, while one snake bite (old CI on autoattack) is enough.

GS5 is a hard cc lock down and for that has a totally different purpose than an interrupt tool like MoD. Just like Warrior hammer skills. Ofc they CAN interrupt, longer cast skills and shorter cast skills on prediction, but that is still not their main purpose. The lock down to hit follow ups is their main purpose and a lock down should never be instant (in particular when also range).

I feel like I'm repeating myself but here it goes, you never use autoattack unless 1- you've nothing else to do 2-you're not under pressure, so you're always interrupting skills which the PB bonus you're referring to works with.ICD on rupt traits make all the sense because you've to choose what to interrupt, aren't you always talking about making the game for skillfull, why the objection to a something that actually would make you think, instead of spamming rupts whenever you get a chance?The problem nowadays is that the rupt is all reward and no skill or do you think you need immense thought and asian reflexes to interrupt something in a game where you're always using skills.

And again the autoattack story fgs...The answer is above and in all posts I made in this thread.

I must be writing on chinese. I said and I quote " same with GS5, it has interrupt potential, I never said it was an interrupt, although it is more of an interrupt than torch 5 and sw ambush that's for sure (1/2 sec cast)". Which means GS5 is not an interrupt but has interrupt feature imbued into it, and by having a shorter activation time than sw ambush and torch 5 fills that role better than those.

You don't get that it is not the point that gs5 CAN interrupt. It is a lock down cc and that will always be its main purpose. While troch 5 and sword leap cannot lock down at all. That is a big difference in skill design.

First: Ppl do use autoattacks what the hell are you talking? Second: What i said still counts for random interrupts at random moments for other skills too. Snake (old CI) hits you one time lucky with a braindead random spammed interrupt on whatever and you are dead, PB hits you 10 times without any tactical manner and you are maybe annoyed but you kill the Mesmer in the end and laugh. PB is balanced in the environment of GW2 (where interrupts also work on autoattack and where the gameplay is fast paced, or more negative from your PoV said: spammy) because PB reward is weak enough to make it not impactful enough when you only random spam your interrupt tools, while old CI never was balanced no matter how many cds on the interrupt tools or how many ICD you would give to it. PB is weaker than the trait alternatives a Mesmer can chose at this place the moment you do not use it near its skill cap and tactical and on right skills at right moment most of the time and it needs more skill than other dmg boni traits because it at least requires an interrupt additionally to the simple hit (spam). While old CI was a one hit killer without the need to care what it even interrupts (even autoattack is enough), it had no counterplay at all because no one can cover every single skill use for the whole fight duration. Means running away and not fighting was your only option to not die or you had nearly infinite cover tools, what no one had, not even the lamest and biggest hardcounterbuild. Ofc the interrupt reward design itself just also as how high or low the impact of the reward is, is relvant for the question if it is balaced and skillful or not. I cannot believe that even such obvious basics need a wall of text discussion. Unbelievable. I also will not restart why ICD on interrupt traits makes no sense at all. You are so obviously logically wrong, it doesn't worth the effort to explain it again.But go ahead believe what you want, interrupt is interrupt, no matter how the interrupt reward is desingned. Bite is bite, no matter of how big his consequences are. Fighting a good or a bad interrupt Mesmer makes no difference at all (you are at least right with old CI, there it was rly no difference). As said logic is not on your side here. Some footage would be nice. Further discussion seems absolutely pointless.

The main purpose of GS5 depends on the circunstances. If you never used GS5 to interrupt something maybe you're the one who needs mesmer lessons?As for torch5 and sw ambush all they're good for is setting up a burst or in case of sw ambush preemptive rupt.

Now I'm absolute sure I'm writing on chinese. Did I said people don't use autos? I said people use autos on two conditions and those two alone, again if you ever used autos, specially on mesmer, whose autos are absolute trash, where they didn't fall out on those two conditions maybe you're the one who needs mesmer lessons.

Both CI and PB hits you on braindead random spammed interrupts since this game is all about spam, PB has no kitten tactical manner, not without an ICD or the amount of rupt potential lowered. If you had only 2 oe 3 rupt potential in one build yeah, you had to think carefully and time your rupts. With 5 or 6, some with low cd, free damage +15sec cd (assuming the bug is fixed) , not a chance you've to be a tactical master and asian reflexes god.The old CI was there almost since release and it only saw use and qq once mirage started using it with condis and sw ambush, this shows how broken the trait was in itself...Reduce the amount of rupts on a mesmer build to 2 or 3 and you can bring back CI without any problem at all.Again point is: rupting in this game is braindead easy since the nature of the game is spam how to solve it? plenty of ways, lower the interrupt potential, ICD the traits, introduce energy management.

On nearly all classes i use autoattacks and i see others do that too. No clue what you peeps do in WvW... The 2 main purposes you called are already enough to have plenty of opportunities to interrupt autoattacks, what you even on about, i don't get what you even want to say. Makes no sense.Maybe i write in chinese because i clearly said you can interrupt but you also can interrupt with a 2 sec shield bash stun too, still not its main purpose. Gs 5 main purpose is either lock down or pure defensive messure to get distance again (Anet had gs autoattack in mind, doing more dmg in range and tried to create a synergy here). The short casttime ofc also gives it an interrupt purpose but that is secondary. Why we talk about that? It is not even relevant.

To all other stuff you said: No i think you are wrong with like everything but i give up. Footage or it never happend. And old CI will never be balanced or skilled because it is a killer mechanic, one lucky random interrupt on an autoattack can be enough to get a kill, it has zero counterplay when looking at the whole fight duration, because you cannot time your counters like stabi to anything. You would need to cover yourself the whole f...reaking fight. Also as a control that needs a stunbreak and a condiremove to get removed it is even problematic without instant range interrupts like MoD. In particular on a class with (nearly) oneshot potential (condi as power) and range interrupts. Means for Mesmer? Never, not even when only using one interrupt skill with 1hour CD or ICD on the trait (exaggerated).

To the topic: Buff chrono!

And Thief!

At this point I don't know if you're trolling. Again did I say you don't use autos, anywhere? The 2 purposes are predictable.Again I didn't say anywhere GS5 is an interrupt, I did say it can be used as so since the activation time is half a second which is low enough to interrupt some skills, not like sw ambush 0.75 activation time on clone, on player that value is higher, which can only interrupt either preemptively (which goes back to the spam nature of the game, you will interrupt something everytime).

Can't be wrong with facts:

• a game without resource management + low cds = spam.
• in a spam game you don't need skill to interrupt anything.
• autoattacks are used in a predictable way since they fall on two conditions.

Old CI was as balanced as PB, proof is what I said above, it only became an issue with sw ambush and condis which again points back to the spam nature of game. In a game with either low amount of rupts, some energy management, or both, CI would be no issue hence CI was not the disease but a symptom.

ICD on trait or shorter amount of rupts means higher ceiling which you always defend, you actually would need to think I need that skill to get rupted and +15sec CD. Not like now, I can make that that that that oh and that go +15sec cd.One involves a choice and timely rupt, the other doesn't.

[bravan.3876]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

So wait, you say that CI was broken but PB is not?There the same! Rupt do x, rupt do y!Who even uses autos? Autos are used either when you've nothing else to do or you're not under pressure.I'm not confusing lockdown with rupts. Again, rupts in a spam game have too much profit for little effort, you don't have to time jackkitten.

You just proved that you do not get the difference between an interrupt and a lock down otherwise you would understand the difference between PB and old CI.

Old CI was a lock down (immob+daze acts like a hard cc, like a stun for example, it prefends skill use and dodging and moving, all together, that is called a lock down means something that is not used for interrupts, the main purpose is to trap the target, make it unable to do anything and and hit follow up dmg skills/ combos). A very strong finisher move. Those skills giving a lock down ability have for good reasons good animations and decent casttime (like Warrior Hammer cc skills for example). Old CI trait + MoD was comparable to making Warrior Hammer cc skills range and instant. Even more, old CI was worse/stronger than a simple stun, because it needs a condi clear AND a stunbreak to be countered and for that was the strongest form of control and killer mechanic in the game. Problematic balancewise even without instant range MoD.

No stun, knockdown etc should be instant in this game. It is a killer mechanic, should have counterplay in terms of avoidance by reactiontime based on animations and casttime, because getting traped in a lock down or lock down chain without a stunbreak rdy means death in most cases. The only exceptions are fear and taunt (because both can be removed by condi cleanse without any stunbreak and are for that a lower hard cc category. I still think both should have better animations and more casttime and should not be instant, at least when max range but that is another story. I just explain the balance logic, the reasons why you find instant fear and taunt skills in the game, what got reduced with the big patch already too btw).Instant stun from old CS trait just as old CI got reworked for good reasons, they contradicted healthy balance and balance logic insanely hard. While PB is not a killer. The reward from PB is so low, that even with the current amount of cc a sword Mirage has, you will never win any fight with random interupts on autoattack or with accidently lucky interrupt on a keyskill here and there. that is probably the reason a lot of Mesmer mains think it is currently to weak, while it is just balanced. That is the difference why PB is balance in a game where interrupts work on autoattack (what could be discussed to be changed but in the end there is no reason, that autoattack spam should not be punishable by interrupt builds, AS LONG AS the interrupt reward is not too strong). PB complied those balance logic requirements amoung GW2 mechanics. Old CI and old CS did not. Both were lock downs should never be range and instant. CI was even more than a simple stun and for that problematic even without MoD. Also interrupts with torch 5 and sword ambush from Mesmer and clones have even more counterplay because they have casttime/animation and are for that no balance issue at all. They are, as you mentioned yourself, pretty weak interrupt tools because they are not instant while only providing low impact daze and that very short in duration. Gs5 is not an interrupt tool, it is a hard cc lock down skill.

The point is there is no difference between PB and CI, both rely on rupts, rupts you'll hit every single time because foe is always casting something, it's the nature of the game.So, in game in it's current state they're both broken. In a game with a resource mechanic in which you need half a brain to manage your skills, both traits would be fair.

Instant stun from the old CS trait was reworked because of qq, not because of good reasons. Otherwise other instant stuns that are on game would be deleted as well.PB is an easy damage bonus+weakness+15sec cd. Again, in the current state of the game (spam spam spam), this trait should be deleted or get an ICD (which it current has, although small), it helps win some fights for sure and no, you don't need to interrupt crucial skills, you've plenty of rupt potential to waste some.Yes, torch 5 and sw ambush have counterplay hence why I said interrupt potential, not interrupts because they're not interrupts, same with GS5, it has interrupt potential, I never said it was an interrupt, although it is more of an interrupt than torch 5 and sw ambush that's for sure (1/2 sec cast).

Ok so for you a bite is also always a bite. No difference if a mosquito bites you for 0,0001% litre of your blood and a little itching or a snake bites you what will kill you in less than one hour. Makes sense! The most important interrupt reward on PB doesn't even work on autoattacks rofl but ok it is all the same. The ICD is only a bug and not intended as far as i heard, no argument at all. ICD on interrupt traits do not make sense (also on stackable condi effects ICDs are less of a problem than on a direct effect like higher interupt cd what changes rotations and for that have way more active influence on a fight, if such an interrupt reward gets an ICD and becomes more or less random it would kill all skill cieling and mind gaming and tactical purpose of the interrupt).

Can you show me how you win vs decent player with an PB interrupt Mirage with only random spamming your cc and only hitting autoattacks, maybe here and there a random skill or nothing most of the time? Because logic is not on your side here, i at least need some footage prove. Also have fun using PB for the little dmg and weakness on autoattacks when you could use MA instead for more bonus dmg on all shatters you then also only need to spam (hit), not to think about it at all, no need to interrupt anything. PB clearly has a trade off and a higher skill ceiling and when you play it bad you will not win any fight with it, simply because even 10 mosquito bites (PB on autoattacks) will not kill you, while one snake bite (old CI on autoattack) is enough.

GS5 is a hard cc lock down and for that has a totally different purpose than an interrupt tool like MoD. Just like Warrior hammer skills. Ofc they CAN interrupt, longer cast skills and shorter cast skills on prediction, but that is still not their main purpose. The lock down to hit follow ups is their main purpose and a lock down should never be instant (in particular when also range).

I feel like I'm repeating myself but here it goes, you never use autoattack unless 1- you've nothing else to do 2-you're not under pressure, so you're always interrupting skills which the PB bonus you're referring to works with.ICD on rupt traits make all the sense because you've to choose what to interrupt, aren't you always talking about making the game for skillfull, why the objection to a something that actually would make you think, instead of spamming rupts whenever you get a chance?The problem nowadays is that the rupt is all reward and no skill or do you think you need immense thought and asian reflexes to interrupt something in a game where you're always using skills.

And again the autoattack story fgs...The answer is above and in all posts I made in this thread.

I must be writing on chinese. I said and I quote " same with GS5, it has interrupt potential, I never said it was an interrupt, although it is more of an interrupt than torch 5 and sw ambush that's for sure (1/2 sec cast)". Which means GS5 is not an interrupt but has interrupt feature imbued into it, and by having a shorter activation time than sw ambush and torch 5 fills that role better than those.

You don't get that it is not the point that gs5 CAN interrupt. It is a lock down cc and that will always be its main purpose. While troch 5 and sword leap cannot lock down at all. That is a big difference in skill design.

First: Ppl do use autoattacks what the hell are you talking? Second: What i said still counts for random interrupts at random moments for other skills too. Snake (old CI) hits you one time lucky with a braindead random spammed interrupt on whatever and you are dead, PB hits you 10 times without any tactical manner and you are maybe annoyed but you kill the Mesmer in the end and laugh. PB is balanced in the environment of GW2 (where interrupts also work on autoattack and where the gameplay is fast paced, or more negative from your PoV said: spammy) because PB reward is weak enough to make it not impactful enough when you only random spam your interrupt tools, while old CI never was balanced no matter how many cds on the interrupt tools or how many ICD you would give to it. PB is weaker than the trait alternatives a Mesmer can chose at this place the moment you do not use it near its skill cap and tactical and on right skills at right moment most of the time and it needs more skill than other dmg boni traits because it at least requires an interrupt additionally to the simple hit (spam). While old CI was a one hit killer without the need to care what it even interrupts (even autoattack is enough), it had no counterplay at all because no one can cover every single skill use for the whole fight duration. Means running away and not fighting was your only option to not die or you had nearly infinite cover tools, what no one had, not even the lamest and biggest hardcounterbuild. Ofc the interrupt reward design itself just also as how high or low the impact of the reward is, is relvant for the question if it is balaced and skillful or not. I cannot believe that even such obvious basics need a wall of text discussion. Unbelievable. I also will not restart why ICD on interrupt traits makes no sense at all. You are so obviously logically wrong, it doesn't worth the effort to explain it again.But go ahead believe what you want, interrupt is interrupt, no matter how the interrupt reward is desingned. Bite is bite, no matter of how big his consequences are. Fighting a good or a bad interrupt Mesmer makes no difference at all (you are at least right with old CI, there it was rly no difference). As said logic is not on your side here. Some footage would be nice. Further discussion seems absolutely pointless.

The main purpose of GS5 depends on the circunstances. If you never used GS5 to interrupt something maybe you're the one who needs mesmer lessons?As for torch5 and sw ambush all they're good for is setting up a burst or in case of sw ambush preemptive rupt.

Now I'm absolute sure I'm writing on chinese. Did I said people don't use autos? I said people use autos on two conditions and those two alone, again if you ever used autos, specially on mesmer, whose autos are absolute trash, where they didn't fall out on those two conditions maybe you're the one who needs mesmer lessons.

Both CI and PB hits you on braindead random spammed interrupts since this game is all about spam, PB has no kitten tactical manner, not without an ICD or the amount of rupt potential lowered. If you had only 2 oe 3 rupt potential in one build yeah, you had to think carefully and time your rupts. With 5 or 6, some with low cd, free damage +15sec cd (assuming the bug is fixed) , not a chance you've to be a tactical master and asian reflexes god.The old CI was there almost since release and it only saw use and qq once mirage started using it with condis and sw ambush, this shows how broken the trait was in itself...Reduce the amount of rupts on a mesmer build to 2 or 3 and you can bring back CI without any problem at all.Again point is: rupting in this game is braindead easy since the nature of the game is spam how to solve it? plenty of ways, lower the interrupt potential, ICD the traits, introduce energy management.

On nearly all classes i use autoattacks and i see others do that too. No clue what you peeps do in WvW... The 2 main purposes you called are already enough to have plenty of opportunities to interrupt autoattacks, what you even on about, i don't get what you even want to say. Makes no sense.Maybe i write in chinese because i clearly said you can interrupt but you also can interrupt with a 2 sec shield bash stun too, still not its main purpose. Gs 5 main purpose is either lock down or pure defensive messure to get distance again (Anet had gs autoattack in mind, doing more dmg in range and tried to create a synergy here). The short casttime ofc also gives it an interrupt purpose but that is secondary. Why we talk about that? It is not even relevant.

To all other stuff you said: No i think you are wrong with like everything but i give up. Footage or it never happend. And old CI will never be balanced or skilled because it is a killer mechanic, one lucky random interrupt on an autoattack can be enough to get a kill, it has zero counterplay when looking at the whole fight duration, because you cannot time your counters like stabi to anything. You would need to cover yourself the whole f...reaking fight. Also as a control that needs a stunbreak and a condiremove to get removed it is even problematic without instant range interrupts like MoD. In particular on a class with (nearly) oneshot potential (condi as power) and range interrupts. Means for Mesmer? Never, not even when only using one interrupt skill with 1hour CD or ICD on the trait (exaggerated).

To the topic: Buff chrono!

And Thief!

At this point I don't know if you're trolling. Again did I say you don't use autos, anywhere? The 2 purposes are predictable.Again I didn't say anywhere GS5 is an interrupt, I did say it can be used as so since the activation time is half a second which is low enough to interrupt some skills, not like sw ambush 0.75 activation time on clone, on player that value is higher, which can only interrupt either preemptively (which goes back to the spam nature of the game, you will interrupt something everytime).

Can't be wrong with facts:

• a game without resource management + low cds = spam.
• in a spam game you don't need skill to interrupt anything.
• autoattacks are used in a predictable way since they fall on two conditions.

Old CI was as balanced as PB, proof is what I said above, it only became an issue with sw ambush and condis which again points back to the spam nature of game. In a game with either low amount of rupts, some energy management, or both, CI would be no issue hence CI was not the disease but a symptom.

ICD on trait or shorter amount of rupts means higher ceiling which you always defend, you actually would need to think I

need

that skill to get rupted and +15sec CD. Not like now, I

can make

that that that that oh and that go +15sec cd.One involves a choice and timely rupt, the other doesn't.

Lets buff Necro too. Some teams run without Necros. It is not acceptable! Btw old CI Condimirage didn't use sword if i remember right.