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The Death of Thief

darren.1064

By darren.1064
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Captain Kuro.8937

Captain Kuro.8937

Posted
Posted

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the
, for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)

It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.

The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleanceI beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources

They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.

If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .Even on Vallun video a while back

Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.

It behaves like Cloack And Dagger

If you cloak and Dagger when youre already stealthed you also get revealed.

Mug its on Deadly spec .And we are talking about meta builds

There is just redundant. Why would you want stealth on steal? You steal backstab when engaging. Youre not gonna steal for stealth mid-combat, and out of combat you have stealth anyway.

You cannot remove a clutch Burn , because they are overbearing conditions. So 1x condtion removal is worthless .

Hardly. Shadows Embrace is nice in that it only removes
damaging
conditions. So if they have burn cripple and so on, you remove the burn. Even 1 condi cleanse is quite valuable, especially on a class that generally lacks them.

I believe that Thief actually use stealth to benefit from it much more

Not really. If you try to stealth mid-combat, you just get hit for a ton more damage than you would remove from the 1 condi cleanse. Youre also not gonna be able to just stay in stealth and wait for another tick, you die before that. Its legitimately just for the healing skill.

Rather than wasting 9 resources on Heartseeker + Powder and then steal , you can instead simply Steal without a cost and gain stealth , also reduce the Shadowsteap from 50>40 sec and Blinding Powder 40>32 sec

Youre going to "waste" those 9 resources anyway, because you want to stack up Leeching Venoms, and you want to engage on them without them ever knowing you were there. Oh and since you use steal on the opening burst, that also means you wont be able to use it later. Reducing the CD of Shadowstep is nice, but not significant enough. You dont use Blinding Powder right now anyway.

Burns can be re-applied , so remove one is kinda worthless . If Thieves stealth more (which i believe they do) they benefit from it much more . The stealth from the healing spell lasts 2 sec (1s from PvP + Melds) , you will only benefit from 1 condtion removal from the start and not a second

They can be, but its still great. They stack the burst on you, and you negate it. And then you run away, so they cant just keep reapplying it. Thats why its great. Thieves do
NOT
stealth more. Because its actively suicidal and just about the only way a thief can get himself killed. It also doesnt benefit more at all. Youre not gonna survive waiting 3 seconds for the second condi removal. And yes, you only get the 1 condi removal at the start. Thats how the trait works.

Yeah you are going to waste 9 resources and stealth for 3 sec , or waste those 9 resources and use Hidden Thief for 6 sec stealth . Reggardles of what stealth method you choose the Leeching Venoms poison will still come up .

And in that case, you burn the steal before you can use it to engage. A complete waste. Both of a trait, and of steal. A terrible idea.

If you use the 20 sec heal that the trait does offer stealth in combat , is a defensive option that most thieves do . Its not suicidal , its called ''tactical get the hell away'' . And still Shadow Embrace is kinda worthless for a 2 sec stealth only . Maybe the majority of the stealth + streamers have a different tactics and use itmore than us ?

Stealth in combat is not a defensive option. Its suicidal. Here is what happens. You plop down a smoke field, try to heartseeker and whoops, your opponent decided to abuse the fact that youre stuck in 1.25 seconds worth of animation, threw some damage youre way, and youre suddenly downed. Why, that doesnt seem useful at all. Thats why you dont do it. Its why top tier streamers dont use it. And no, shadows embrace is still good for Concealing Restoration. Youre right, its not terribly much, but the alternatives are both
worse
. Merciful Ambush doesnt come into play often enough, and Hidden Thief is just not useful.

Rather than having 1 condition removal every 20 sec (on heal>stealth) . Its better to have :

I dont know why you think repeating the same wrong thing maakes it true. No, Hidden Thief is
much
worse. End of story.

But in the other hand if poeple use stealth a lot more , like Vallun it makes sense that they benefit from it more

He doesnt. Look at Vallun. Look at Sindrener. See how often they use in-combat stealth. Unless its to finish off a target (usually when theyre 3 or 4v1) the answer is
never
. And in that situation, shadows embrace isnt doing anything.

Concealing Restoration is more suicidal , because you must wait before the channel ends and then you stealth .

Completely, utterly 100% wrong. When you use channeled vigor, you regain health. You still might take damage, but youre not even locked in an animation, you can move. Its 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times less suicidal.

While doing Black Powder offer some Blind and the Heartseeker some mobility (just like Dash)

You dont get the blind unless you target an enemy then drop targetting, which is clunky. And the mobility doesnt help you because your opponent knows exactly where you will move. Neither of those will save you from the grenade barrage Im aiming at you that will down you instantly. Which is why
EVERY
good thief avoids in-combat stealth. Please, for future reference, dont talk about thief if you dont know thief.

No i am sorry , but you are kinda wrong here .

I am absolutely correct. You are the one who is wrong.

If the majority of the streamers + metabattle have that traits ,it mean that they stealth more and benefit from that trait . Otherwise they would take that Hidden Thief .

Wrong. Hidden Thief is worse. Even if you just use concealing restoration (Which yes, is what they do), it is so much worse. But if you dont believe me, just go ahead and watch Sindrener. He is using Shadows Embrace. See how often he goes for in-combat stealth (Or let me spoil you: Almost never).

They know more than you and me .You could look at the Vallun Video , where he stealth and use Dash to get away from danger . If you some problems with stealthing up , we can meet inside and give you some tips

They do. Thats why they
DONT
stealth mid-combat. They know its suicidal and the worst thing a thief can do by far. Watch
most recent games on sinds youtube channel. Pop Quiz: During the entire 15 minute match, how many times does he stealth mid combat? The answer is
once
. Against a prot holo that cant punish him. Didnt clear any condis doing it though. And still he runs shadows embrace. Why? Because its much better than hidden thief, even if you just use concealing restoration like the good thieves do. Why? Well I already explained.

I saw multiply thieves from the tournament and Vallun use stealth .

Out of combat stealth. Yes. In-combat stealth? No. Well, other than maybe the condi thieves using Shadow Refuge to immediately leave stealth and just proc shadow bolts on the stealth attack. That appears to be how it was used.

And Sind uses the Embrace trait vs heavy condition opponents , while the enemy waste aoes , he hides and uses the trait to cleanse conditions

No, he uses them against
all
opponents. He does not do what you describe
EVER
. Because that doesnt work. You do not stealth mid-combat (unless its to finish off an outnumbered enemy, maybe, and
maybe
if youre facing a low-damage bunker and wanna prepare to switch targets to someone a bit further way. But even in that case, it makes more sense to get out first, then stealth). If you stealth mid-combat, you die unless your opponent is playing a low-damage bunker. And even then you sometimes die. Thats why you dont use it.

I am hopping to see a Grenade Barrage Enginner on the Tournaments on July . Maybe we can see that spec to be used vs stealth Mesmer also

Why? Grenade Engineer isnt particularly good. Its just an example because I play it. Any class can punish thief for trying to stealth mid-combat. Thats why every single good thief doesnt use mid-combat stealth. And yet they use Shadows Embrace, because its still much better. It is that simple. Accept the fact, or be quiet.

Ehm ...other specs too exept the 2x French . The majority of the enemies are Bunkers and while you having the damage reduction from the Daredevil traits , they cannot huke you high enoughtSo people actually use stealth , in higher lvl , while in lower tier its easily punnisable

I thought for a sec that Grenade Engineer , was death incarnate with all these '''if you stealth , you will get nuked by it'' .In lower levels everything works and everything punish each other

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UNOwen.7132

UNOwen.7132

Posted
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@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the
, for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)

It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.

The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleanceI beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources

They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.

If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .Even on Vallun video a while back

Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.

It behaves like Cloack And Dagger

If you cloak and Dagger when youre already stealthed you also get revealed.

Mug its on Deadly spec .And we are talking about meta builds

There is just redundant. Why would you want stealth on steal? You steal backstab when engaging. Youre not gonna steal for stealth mid-combat, and out of combat you have stealth anyway.

You cannot remove a clutch Burn , because they are overbearing conditions. So 1x condtion removal is worthless .

Hardly. Shadows Embrace is nice in that it only removes
damaging
conditions. So if they have burn cripple and so on, you remove the burn. Even 1 condi cleanse is quite valuable, especially on a class that generally lacks them.

I believe that Thief actually use stealth to benefit from it much more

Not really. If you try to stealth mid-combat, you just get hit for a ton more damage than you would remove from the 1 condi cleanse. Youre also not gonna be able to just stay in stealth and wait for another tick, you die before that. Its legitimately just for the healing skill.

Rather than wasting 9 resources on Heartseeker + Powder and then steal , you can instead simply Steal without a cost and gain stealth , also reduce the Shadowsteap from 50>40 sec and Blinding Powder 40>32 sec

Youre going to "waste" those 9 resources anyway, because you want to stack up Leeching Venoms, and you want to engage on them without them ever knowing you were there. Oh and since you use steal on the opening burst, that also means you wont be able to use it later. Reducing the CD of Shadowstep is nice, but not significant enough. You dont use Blinding Powder right now anyway.

Burns can be re-applied , so remove one is kinda worthless . If Thieves stealth more (which i believe they do) they benefit from it much more . The stealth from the healing spell lasts 2 sec (1s from PvP + Melds) , you will only benefit from 1 condtion removal from the start and not a second

They can be, but its still great. They stack the burst on you, and you negate it. And then you run away, so they cant just keep reapplying it. Thats why its great. Thieves do
NOT
stealth more. Because its actively suicidal and just about the only way a thief can get himself killed. It also doesnt benefit more at all. Youre not gonna survive waiting 3 seconds for the second condi removal. And yes, you only get the 1 condi removal at the start. Thats how the trait works.

Yeah you are going to waste 9 resources and stealth for 3 sec , or waste those 9 resources and use Hidden Thief for 6 sec stealth . Reggardles of what stealth method you choose the Leeching Venoms poison will still come up .

And in that case, you burn the steal before you can use it to engage. A complete waste. Both of a trait, and of steal. A terrible idea.

If you use the 20 sec heal that the trait does offer stealth in combat , is a defensive option that most thieves do . Its not suicidal , its called ''tactical get the hell away'' . And still Shadow Embrace is kinda worthless for a 2 sec stealth only . Maybe the majority of the stealth + streamers have a different tactics and use itmore than us ?

Stealth in combat is not a defensive option. Its suicidal. Here is what happens. You plop down a smoke field, try to heartseeker and whoops, your opponent decided to abuse the fact that youre stuck in 1.25 seconds worth of animation, threw some damage youre way, and youre suddenly downed. Why, that doesnt seem useful at all. Thats why you dont do it. Its why top tier streamers dont use it. And no, shadows embrace is still good for Concealing Restoration. Youre right, its not terribly much, but the alternatives are both
worse
. Merciful Ambush doesnt come into play often enough, and Hidden Thief is just not useful.

Rather than having 1 condition removal every 20 sec (on heal>stealth) . Its better to have :

I dont know why you think repeating the same wrong thing maakes it true. No, Hidden Thief is
much
worse. End of story.

But in the other hand if poeple use stealth a lot more , like Vallun it makes sense that they benefit from it more

He doesnt. Look at Vallun. Look at Sindrener. See how often they use in-combat stealth. Unless its to finish off a target (usually when theyre 3 or 4v1) the answer is
never
. And in that situation, shadows embrace isnt doing anything.

Concealing Restoration is more suicidal , because you must wait before the channel ends and then you stealth .

Completely, utterly 100% wrong. When you use channeled vigor, you regain health. You still might take damage, but youre not even locked in an animation, you can move. Its 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times less suicidal.

While doing Black Powder offer some Blind and the Heartseeker some mobility (just like Dash)

You dont get the blind unless you target an enemy then drop targetting, which is clunky. And the mobility doesnt help you because your opponent knows exactly where you will move. Neither of those will save you from the grenade barrage Im aiming at you that will down you instantly. Which is why
EVERY
good thief avoids in-combat stealth. Please, for future reference, dont talk about thief if you dont know thief.

No i am sorry , but you are kinda wrong here .

I am absolutely correct. You are the one who is wrong.

If the majority of the streamers + metabattle have that traits ,it mean that they stealth more and benefit from that trait . Otherwise they would take that Hidden Thief .

Wrong. Hidden Thief is worse. Even if you just use concealing restoration (Which yes, is what they do), it is so much worse. But if you dont believe me, just go ahead and watch Sindrener. He is using Shadows Embrace. See how often he goes for in-combat stealth (Or let me spoil you: Almost never).

They know more than you and me .You could look at the Vallun Video , where he stealth and use Dash to get away from danger . If you some problems with stealthing up , we can meet inside and give you some tips

They do. Thats why they
DONT
stealth mid-combat. They know its suicidal and the worst thing a thief can do by far. Watch
most recent games on sinds youtube channel. Pop Quiz: During the entire 15 minute match, how many times does he stealth mid combat? The answer is
once
. Against a prot holo that cant punish him. Didnt clear any condis doing it though. And still he runs shadows embrace. Why? Because its much better than hidden thief, even if you just use concealing restoration like the good thieves do. Why? Well I already explained.

I saw multiply thieves from the tournament and Vallun use stealth .

Out of combat stealth. Yes. In-combat stealth? No. Well, other than maybe the condi thieves using Shadow Refuge to immediately leave stealth and just proc shadow bolts on the stealth attack. That appears to be how it was used.

And Sind uses the Embrace trait vs heavy condition opponents , while the enemy waste aoes , he hides and uses the trait to cleanse conditions

No, he uses them against
all
opponents. He does not do what you describe
EVER
. Because that doesnt work. You do not stealth mid-combat (unless its to finish off an outnumbered enemy, maybe, and
maybe
if youre facing a low-damage bunker and wanna prepare to switch targets to someone a bit further way. But even in that case, it makes more sense to get out first, then stealth). If you stealth mid-combat, you die unless your opponent is playing a low-damage bunker. And even then you sometimes die. Thats why you dont use it.

I am hopping to see a Grenade Barrage Enginner on the Tournaments on July . Maybe we can see that spec to be used vs stealth Mesmer also

Why? Grenade Engineer isnt particularly good. Its just an example because I play it. Any class can punish thief for trying to stealth mid-combat. Thats why every single good thief doesnt use mid-combat stealth. And yet they use Shadows Embrace, because its still much better. It is that simple. Accept the fact, or be quiet.

Ehm ...other specs too exept the 2x French . The majority of the enemies are Bunkers and while you having the damage reduction from the Daredevil traits , they cannot huke you high enought

And they too didnt use it, other than exactly with shadow Refuge and dropping it exactly instantly just to get the stealth attack with the shadow projectile finishers. The damage reduction traits wont be active when you try to stealth up (you move out of range and the enemy wont be weak). Right now even bunkers can do a lot of damage, and far from everyone is playing bunkers. You will get nuked.

I thought for a sec that Grenade Engineer , was death incarnate with all these '''if you stealth , you will get nuked by it'' .In lower levels everything works and everything punish each other

The point is that even Grenade Engineer can nuke you when you try to stealth. Any build can. Its funny that you bring up lower levels, because its ONLY in lower levels that thieves use stealth mid-combat. Because they arent good, and their opponents arent good. In high level, you will almost never see a thief use stealth mid-combat. If they want to run, they shortbow 5. If they want to fight, they use shadow shot, heartseekr or swap to shortbow. But never, ever, under any circumstances, do they go for stealth. And still Shadows Embrace is run. Because its better.

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Captain Kuro.8937

Captain Kuro.8937

Posted
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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the
, for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)

It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.

The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleanceI beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources

They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.

If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .Even on Vallun video a while back

Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.

It behaves like Cloack And Dagger

If you cloak and Dagger when youre already stealthed you also get revealed.

Mug its on Deadly spec .And we are talking about meta builds

There is just redundant. Why would you want stealth on steal? You steal backstab when engaging. Youre not gonna steal for stealth mid-combat, and out of combat you have stealth anyway.

You cannot remove a clutch Burn , because they are overbearing conditions. So 1x condtion removal is worthless .

Hardly. Shadows Embrace is nice in that it only removes
damaging
conditions. So if they have burn cripple and so on, you remove the burn. Even 1 condi cleanse is quite valuable, especially on a class that generally lacks them.

I believe that Thief actually use stealth to benefit from it much more

Not really. If you try to stealth mid-combat, you just get hit for a ton more damage than you would remove from the 1 condi cleanse. Youre also not gonna be able to just stay in stealth and wait for another tick, you die before that. Its legitimately just for the healing skill.

Rather than wasting 9 resources on Heartseeker + Powder and then steal , you can instead simply Steal without a cost and gain stealth , also reduce the Shadowsteap from 50>40 sec and Blinding Powder 40>32 sec

Youre going to "waste" those 9 resources anyway, because you want to stack up Leeching Venoms, and you want to engage on them without them ever knowing you were there. Oh and since you use steal on the opening burst, that also means you wont be able to use it later. Reducing the CD of Shadowstep is nice, but not significant enough. You dont use Blinding Powder right now anyway.

Burns can be re-applied , so remove one is kinda worthless . If Thieves stealth more (which i believe they do) they benefit from it much more . The stealth from the healing spell lasts 2 sec (1s from PvP + Melds) , you will only benefit from 1 condtion removal from the start and not a second

They can be, but its still great. They stack the burst on you, and you negate it. And then you run away, so they cant just keep reapplying it. Thats why its great. Thieves do
NOT
stealth more. Because its actively suicidal and just about the only way a thief can get himself killed. It also doesnt benefit more at all. Youre not gonna survive waiting 3 seconds for the second condi removal. And yes, you only get the 1 condi removal at the start. Thats how the trait works.

Yeah you are going to waste 9 resources and stealth for 3 sec , or waste those 9 resources and use Hidden Thief for 6 sec stealth . Reggardles of what stealth method you choose the Leeching Venoms poison will still come up .

And in that case, you burn the steal before you can use it to engage. A complete waste. Both of a trait, and of steal. A terrible idea.

If you use the 20 sec heal that the trait does offer stealth in combat , is a defensive option that most thieves do . Its not suicidal , its called ''tactical get the hell away'' . And still Shadow Embrace is kinda worthless for a 2 sec stealth only . Maybe the majority of the stealth + streamers have a different tactics and use itmore than us ?

Stealth in combat is not a defensive option. Its suicidal. Here is what happens. You plop down a smoke field, try to heartseeker and whoops, your opponent decided to abuse the fact that youre stuck in 1.25 seconds worth of animation, threw some damage youre way, and youre suddenly downed. Why, that doesnt seem useful at all. Thats why you dont do it. Its why top tier streamers dont use it. And no, shadows embrace is still good for Concealing Restoration. Youre right, its not terribly much, but the alternatives are both
worse
. Merciful Ambush doesnt come into play often enough, and Hidden Thief is just not useful.

Rather than having 1 condition removal every 20 sec (on heal>stealth) . Its better to have :

I dont know why you think repeating the same wrong thing maakes it true. No, Hidden Thief is
much
worse. End of story.

But in the other hand if poeple use stealth a lot more , like Vallun it makes sense that they benefit from it more

He doesnt. Look at Vallun. Look at Sindrener. See how often they use in-combat stealth. Unless its to finish off a target (usually when theyre 3 or 4v1) the answer is
never
. And in that situation, shadows embrace isnt doing anything.

Concealing Restoration is more suicidal , because you must wait before the channel ends and then you stealth .

Completely, utterly 100% wrong. When you use channeled vigor, you regain health. You still might take damage, but youre not even locked in an animation, you can move. Its 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times less suicidal.

While doing Black Powder offer some Blind and the Heartseeker some mobility (just like Dash)

You dont get the blind unless you target an enemy then drop targetting, which is clunky. And the mobility doesnt help you because your opponent knows exactly where you will move. Neither of those will save you from the grenade barrage Im aiming at you that will down you instantly. Which is why
EVERY
good thief avoids in-combat stealth. Please, for future reference, dont talk about thief if you dont know thief.

No i am sorry , but you are kinda wrong here .

I am absolutely correct. You are the one who is wrong.

If the majority of the streamers + metabattle have that traits ,it mean that they stealth more and benefit from that trait . Otherwise they would take that Hidden Thief .

Wrong. Hidden Thief is worse. Even if you just use concealing restoration (Which yes, is what they do), it is so much worse. But if you dont believe me, just go ahead and watch Sindrener. He is using Shadows Embrace. See how often he goes for in-combat stealth (Or let me spoil you: Almost never).

They know more than you and me .You could look at the Vallun Video , where he stealth and use Dash to get away from danger . If you some problems with stealthing up , we can meet inside and give you some tips

They do. Thats why they
DONT
stealth mid-combat. They know its suicidal and the worst thing a thief can do by far. Watch
most recent games on sinds youtube channel. Pop Quiz: During the entire 15 minute match, how many times does he stealth mid combat? The answer is
once
. Against a prot holo that cant punish him. Didnt clear any condis doing it though. And still he runs shadows embrace. Why? Because its much better than hidden thief, even if you just use concealing restoration like the good thieves do. Why? Well I already explained.

I saw multiply thieves from the tournament and Vallun use stealth .

Out of combat stealth. Yes. In-combat stealth? No. Well, other than maybe the condi thieves using Shadow Refuge to immediately leave stealth and just proc shadow bolts on the stealth attack. That appears to be how it was used.

And Sind uses the Embrace trait vs heavy condition opponents , while the enemy waste aoes , he hides and uses the trait to cleanse conditions

No, he uses them against
all
opponents. He does not do what you describe
EVER
. Because that doesnt work. You do not stealth mid-combat (unless its to finish off an outnumbered enemy, maybe, and
maybe
if youre facing a low-damage bunker and wanna prepare to switch targets to someone a bit further way. But even in that case, it makes more sense to get out first, then stealth). If you stealth mid-combat, you die unless your opponent is playing a low-damage bunker. And even then you sometimes die. Thats why you dont use it.

I am hopping to see a Grenade Barrage Enginner on the Tournaments on July . Maybe we can see that spec to be used vs stealth Mesmer also

Why? Grenade Engineer isnt particularly good. Its just an example because I play it. Any class can punish thief for trying to stealth mid-combat. Thats why every single good thief doesnt use mid-combat stealth. And yet they use Shadows Embrace, because its still much better. It is that simple. Accept the fact, or be quiet.

Ehm ...other specs too exept the 2x French . The majority of the enemies are Bunkers and while you having the damage reduction from the Daredevil traits , they cannot huke you high enought

And they too didnt use it, other than
exactly
with shadow Refuge and dropping it
exactly
instantly just to get the stealth attack with the shadow projectile finishers. The damage reduction traits wont be active when you try to stealth up (you move out of range and the enemy wont be weak). Right now even bunkers can do a lot of damage, and far from everyone is playing bunkers. You will get nuked.

I thought for a sec that Grenade Engineer , was death incarnate with all these '''if you stealth , you will get nuked by it'' .In lower levels everything works and everything punish each other

The point is that
even
Grenade Engineer can nuke you when you try to stealth. Any build can. Its funny that you bring up lower levels, because its
ONLY
in lower levels that thieves use stealth mid-combat. Because they arent good, and their opponents arent good. In high level, you will almost never see a thief use stealth mid-combat. If they want to run, they shortbow 5. If they want to fight, they use shadow shot, heartseekr or swap to shortbow. But never, ever, under any circumstances, do they go for stealth. And still Shadows Embrace is run. Because its better.

There where other teams that they used D/P and use it to stealth . For example there was a team with 2 Thieves that made it to the top 8 and lost from the 1 French , that their job was to go far and take turns attacking/stealthing up to win matches vs Mesmers + other other Bunkers and then rotate to mid .At the final 6 , Cheese vs 55rank i believe you could see some stealth ingame action too . If you are near the target >> hit >> try to stealth up near him >> the damage reduction traits will be working fine

I hope we can see the Grenade Enginner in the tournament , its sound preety fun for 1-shot aoes burst vs any , non Bunker

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UNOwen.7132

UNOwen.7132

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@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the
, for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)

It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.

The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleanceI beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources

They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.

If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .Even on Vallun video a while back

Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.

It behaves like Cloack And Dagger

If you cloak and Dagger when youre already stealthed you also get revealed.

Mug its on Deadly spec .And we are talking about meta builds

There is just redundant. Why would you want stealth on steal? You steal backstab when engaging. Youre not gonna steal for stealth mid-combat, and out of combat you have stealth anyway.

You cannot remove a clutch Burn , because they are overbearing conditions. So 1x condtion removal is worthless .

Hardly. Shadows Embrace is nice in that it only removes
damaging
conditions. So if they have burn cripple and so on, you remove the burn. Even 1 condi cleanse is quite valuable, especially on a class that generally lacks them.

I believe that Thief actually use stealth to benefit from it much more

Not really. If you try to stealth mid-combat, you just get hit for a ton more damage than you would remove from the 1 condi cleanse. Youre also not gonna be able to just stay in stealth and wait for another tick, you die before that. Its legitimately just for the healing skill.

Rather than wasting 9 resources on Heartseeker + Powder and then steal , you can instead simply Steal without a cost and gain stealth , also reduce the Shadowsteap from 50>40 sec and Blinding Powder 40>32 sec

Youre going to "waste" those 9 resources anyway, because you want to stack up Leeching Venoms, and you want to engage on them without them ever knowing you were there. Oh and since you use steal on the opening burst, that also means you wont be able to use it later. Reducing the CD of Shadowstep is nice, but not significant enough. You dont use Blinding Powder right now anyway.

Burns can be re-applied , so remove one is kinda worthless . If Thieves stealth more (which i believe they do) they benefit from it much more . The stealth from the healing spell lasts 2 sec (1s from PvP + Melds) , you will only benefit from 1 condtion removal from the start and not a second

They can be, but its still great. They stack the burst on you, and you negate it. And then you run away, so they cant just keep reapplying it. Thats why its great. Thieves do
NOT
stealth more. Because its actively suicidal and just about the only way a thief can get himself killed. It also doesnt benefit more at all. Youre not gonna survive waiting 3 seconds for the second condi removal. And yes, you only get the 1 condi removal at the start. Thats how the trait works.

Yeah you are going to waste 9 resources and stealth for 3 sec , or waste those 9 resources and use Hidden Thief for 6 sec stealth . Reggardles of what stealth method you choose the Leeching Venoms poison will still come up .

And in that case, you burn the steal before you can use it to engage. A complete waste. Both of a trait, and of steal. A terrible idea.

If you use the 20 sec heal that the trait does offer stealth in combat , is a defensive option that most thieves do . Its not suicidal , its called ''tactical get the hell away'' . And still Shadow Embrace is kinda worthless for a 2 sec stealth only . Maybe the majority of the stealth + streamers have a different tactics and use itmore than us ?

Stealth in combat is not a defensive option. Its suicidal. Here is what happens. You plop down a smoke field, try to heartseeker and whoops, your opponent decided to abuse the fact that youre stuck in 1.25 seconds worth of animation, threw some damage youre way, and youre suddenly downed. Why, that doesnt seem useful at all. Thats why you dont do it. Its why top tier streamers dont use it. And no, shadows embrace is still good for Concealing Restoration. Youre right, its not terribly much, but the alternatives are both
worse
. Merciful Ambush doesnt come into play often enough, and Hidden Thief is just not useful.

Rather than having 1 condition removal every 20 sec (on heal>stealth) . Its better to have :

I dont know why you think repeating the same wrong thing maakes it true. No, Hidden Thief is
much
worse. End of story.

But in the other hand if poeple use stealth a lot more , like Vallun it makes sense that they benefit from it more

He doesnt. Look at Vallun. Look at Sindrener. See how often they use in-combat stealth. Unless its to finish off a target (usually when theyre 3 or 4v1) the answer is
never
. And in that situation, shadows embrace isnt doing anything.

Concealing Restoration is more suicidal , because you must wait before the channel ends and then you stealth .

Completely, utterly 100% wrong. When you use channeled vigor, you regain health. You still might take damage, but youre not even locked in an animation, you can move. Its 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times less suicidal.

While doing Black Powder offer some Blind and the Heartseeker some mobility (just like Dash)

You dont get the blind unless you target an enemy then drop targetting, which is clunky. And the mobility doesnt help you because your opponent knows exactly where you will move. Neither of those will save you from the grenade barrage Im aiming at you that will down you instantly. Which is why
EVERY
good thief avoids in-combat stealth. Please, for future reference, dont talk about thief if you dont know thief.

No i am sorry , but you are kinda wrong here .

I am absolutely correct. You are the one who is wrong.

If the majority of the streamers + metabattle have that traits ,it mean that they stealth more and benefit from that trait . Otherwise they would take that Hidden Thief .

Wrong. Hidden Thief is worse. Even if you just use concealing restoration (Which yes, is what they do), it is so much worse. But if you dont believe me, just go ahead and watch Sindrener. He is using Shadows Embrace. See how often he goes for in-combat stealth (Or let me spoil you: Almost never).

They know more than you and me .You could look at the Vallun Video , where he stealth and use Dash to get away from danger . If you some problems with stealthing up , we can meet inside and give you some tips

They do. Thats why they
DONT
stealth mid-combat. They know its suicidal and the worst thing a thief can do by far. Watch
most recent games on sinds youtube channel. Pop Quiz: During the entire 15 minute match, how many times does he stealth mid combat? The answer is
once
. Against a prot holo that cant punish him. Didnt clear any condis doing it though. And still he runs shadows embrace. Why? Because its much better than hidden thief, even if you just use concealing restoration like the good thieves do. Why? Well I already explained.

I saw multiply thieves from the tournament and Vallun use stealth .

Out of combat stealth. Yes. In-combat stealth? No. Well, other than maybe the condi thieves using Shadow Refuge to immediately leave stealth and just proc shadow bolts on the stealth attack. That appears to be how it was used.

And Sind uses the Embrace trait vs heavy condition opponents , while the enemy waste aoes , he hides and uses the trait to cleanse conditions

No, he uses them against
all
opponents. He does not do what you describe
EVER
. Because that doesnt work. You do not stealth mid-combat (unless its to finish off an outnumbered enemy, maybe, and
maybe
if youre facing a low-damage bunker and wanna prepare to switch targets to someone a bit further way. But even in that case, it makes more sense to get out first, then stealth). If you stealth mid-combat, you die unless your opponent is playing a low-damage bunker. And even then you sometimes die. Thats why you dont use it.

I am hopping to see a Grenade Barrage Enginner on the Tournaments on July . Maybe we can see that spec to be used vs stealth Mesmer also

Why? Grenade Engineer isnt particularly good. Its just an example because I play it. Any class can punish thief for trying to stealth mid-combat. Thats why every single good thief doesnt use mid-combat stealth. And yet they use Shadows Embrace, because its still much better. It is that simple. Accept the fact, or be quiet.

Ehm ...other specs too exept the 2x French . The majority of the enemies are Bunkers and while you having the damage reduction from the Daredevil traits , they cannot huke you high enought

And they too didnt use it, other than
exactly
with shadow Refuge and dropping it
exactly
instantly just to get the stealth attack with the shadow projectile finishers. The damage reduction traits wont be active when you try to stealth up (you move out of range and the enemy wont be weak). Right now even bunkers can do a lot of damage, and far from everyone is playing bunkers. You will get nuked.

I thought for a sec that Grenade Engineer , was death incarnate with all these '''if you stealth , you will get nuked by it'' .In lower levels everything works and everything punish each other

The point is that
even
Grenade Engineer can nuke you when you try to stealth. Any build can. Its funny that you bring up lower levels, because its
ONLY
in lower levels that thieves use stealth mid-combat. Because they arent good, and their opponents arent good. In high level, you will almost never see a thief use stealth mid-combat. If they want to run, they shortbow 5. If they want to fight, they use shadow shot, heartseekr or swap to shortbow. But never, ever, under any circumstances, do they go for stealth. And still Shadows Embrace is run. Because its better.

There where other teams that they used D/P and use it to stealth . For example there was a team with 2 Thieves that made it to the top 8 and lost from the 1 French , that their job was to go far and take turns attacking/stealthing up to win matches vs Mesmers + other other Bunkers .

They use out of combat stealth. Yes, that is true. However, there Shadows Embrace doesnt matter. Youre out of combat. You didnt have any conditions. They did not use in-combat stealth at all.

At the final 6 , Cheese vs 55rank i believe you could see some stealth ingame action too . If you are near the target >hit> try to stealth up the damage reduction traits will be working fine

Out of combat stealth, yes. In combat stealth, no. And no, they wont, your heartseeker will move you too far away. Sorry.

I hope we can see the Grenade Enginner in the tournament , its sound preety fun for 1-shot aoes burst

It doesnt oneshot anything but the squishy thieves that already took damage from sticking in a fight. Again, you fixate on the wrong things. But let me just reiterate once more. Good thieves do not use in-combat stealth. If they are activaly fighting an enemy, under (almost) no circumstances will they ever stealth, because its suicidal. They will ONLY stealth out of combat. As a result, Shadows Embrace is ONLY used for concealing restoration, a single condi clear on your healing skill. And its still used over hidden thief, because its much better than hidden thief, even then.

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Captain Kuro.8937

Captain Kuro.8937

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the
, for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)

It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.

The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleanceI beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources

They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.

If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .Even on Vallun video a while back

Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.

It behaves like Cloack And Dagger

If you cloak and Dagger when youre already stealthed you also get revealed.

Mug its on Deadly spec .And we are talking about meta builds

There is just redundant. Why would you want stealth on steal? You steal backstab when engaging. Youre not gonna steal for stealth mid-combat, and out of combat you have stealth anyway.

You cannot remove a clutch Burn , because they are overbearing conditions. So 1x condtion removal is worthless .

Hardly. Shadows Embrace is nice in that it only removes
damaging
conditions. So if they have burn cripple and so on, you remove the burn. Even 1 condi cleanse is quite valuable, especially on a class that generally lacks them.

I believe that Thief actually use stealth to benefit from it much more

Not really. If you try to stealth mid-combat, you just get hit for a ton more damage than you would remove from the 1 condi cleanse. Youre also not gonna be able to just stay in stealth and wait for another tick, you die before that. Its legitimately just for the healing skill.

Rather than wasting 9 resources on Heartseeker + Powder and then steal , you can instead simply Steal without a cost and gain stealth , also reduce the Shadowsteap from 50>40 sec and Blinding Powder 40>32 sec

Youre going to "waste" those 9 resources anyway, because you want to stack up Leeching Venoms, and you want to engage on them without them ever knowing you were there. Oh and since you use steal on the opening burst, that also means you wont be able to use it later. Reducing the CD of Shadowstep is nice, but not significant enough. You dont use Blinding Powder right now anyway.

Burns can be re-applied , so remove one is kinda worthless . If Thieves stealth more (which i believe they do) they benefit from it much more . The stealth from the healing spell lasts 2 sec (1s from PvP + Melds) , you will only benefit from 1 condtion removal from the start and not a second

They can be, but its still great. They stack the burst on you, and you negate it. And then you run away, so they cant just keep reapplying it. Thats why its great. Thieves do
NOT
stealth more. Because its actively suicidal and just about the only way a thief can get himself killed. It also doesnt benefit more at all. Youre not gonna survive waiting 3 seconds for the second condi removal. And yes, you only get the 1 condi removal at the start. Thats how the trait works.

Yeah you are going to waste 9 resources and stealth for 3 sec , or waste those 9 resources and use Hidden Thief for 6 sec stealth . Reggardles of what stealth method you choose the Leeching Venoms poison will still come up .

And in that case, you burn the steal before you can use it to engage. A complete waste. Both of a trait, and of steal. A terrible idea.

If you use the 20 sec heal that the trait does offer stealth in combat , is a defensive option that most thieves do . Its not suicidal , its called ''tactical get the hell away'' . And still Shadow Embrace is kinda worthless for a 2 sec stealth only . Maybe the majority of the stealth + streamers have a different tactics and use itmore than us ?

Stealth in combat is not a defensive option. Its suicidal. Here is what happens. You plop down a smoke field, try to heartseeker and whoops, your opponent decided to abuse the fact that youre stuck in 1.25 seconds worth of animation, threw some damage youre way, and youre suddenly downed. Why, that doesnt seem useful at all. Thats why you dont do it. Its why top tier streamers dont use it. And no, shadows embrace is still good for Concealing Restoration. Youre right, its not terribly much, but the alternatives are both
worse
. Merciful Ambush doesnt come into play often enough, and Hidden Thief is just not useful.

Rather than having 1 condition removal every 20 sec (on heal>stealth) . Its better to have :

I dont know why you think repeating the same wrong thing maakes it true. No, Hidden Thief is
much
worse. End of story.

But in the other hand if poeple use stealth a lot more , like Vallun it makes sense that they benefit from it more

He doesnt. Look at Vallun. Look at Sindrener. See how often they use in-combat stealth. Unless its to finish off a target (usually when theyre 3 or 4v1) the answer is
never
. And in that situation, shadows embrace isnt doing anything.

Concealing Restoration is more suicidal , because you must wait before the channel ends and then you stealth .

Completely, utterly 100% wrong. When you use channeled vigor, you regain health. You still might take damage, but youre not even locked in an animation, you can move. Its 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times less suicidal.

While doing Black Powder offer some Blind and the Heartseeker some mobility (just like Dash)

You dont get the blind unless you target an enemy then drop targetting, which is clunky. And the mobility doesnt help you because your opponent knows exactly where you will move. Neither of those will save you from the grenade barrage Im aiming at you that will down you instantly. Which is why
EVERY
good thief avoids in-combat stealth. Please, for future reference, dont talk about thief if you dont know thief.

No i am sorry , but you are kinda wrong here .

I am absolutely correct. You are the one who is wrong.

If the majority of the streamers + metabattle have that traits ,it mean that they stealth more and benefit from that trait . Otherwise they would take that Hidden Thief .

Wrong. Hidden Thief is worse. Even if you just use concealing restoration (Which yes, is what they do), it is so much worse. But if you dont believe me, just go ahead and watch Sindrener. He is using Shadows Embrace. See how often he goes for in-combat stealth (Or let me spoil you: Almost never).

They know more than you and me .You could look at the Vallun Video , where he stealth and use Dash to get away from danger . If you some problems with stealthing up , we can meet inside and give you some tips

They do. Thats why they
DONT
stealth mid-combat. They know its suicidal and the worst thing a thief can do by far. Watch
most recent games on sinds youtube channel. Pop Quiz: During the entire 15 minute match, how many times does he stealth mid combat? The answer is
once
. Against a prot holo that cant punish him. Didnt clear any condis doing it though. And still he runs shadows embrace. Why? Because its much better than hidden thief, even if you just use concealing restoration like the good thieves do. Why? Well I already explained.

I saw multiply thieves from the tournament and Vallun use stealth .

Out of combat stealth. Yes. In-combat stealth? No. Well, other than maybe the condi thieves using Shadow Refuge to immediately leave stealth and just proc shadow bolts on the stealth attack. That appears to be how it was used.

And Sind uses the Embrace trait vs heavy condition opponents , while the enemy waste aoes , he hides and uses the trait to cleanse conditions

No, he uses them against
all
opponents. He does not do what you describe
EVER
. Because that doesnt work. You do not stealth mid-combat (unless its to finish off an outnumbered enemy, maybe, and
maybe
if youre facing a low-damage bunker and wanna prepare to switch targets to someone a bit further way. But even in that case, it makes more sense to get out first, then stealth). If you stealth mid-combat, you die unless your opponent is playing a low-damage bunker. And even then you sometimes die. Thats why you dont use it.

I am hopping to see a Grenade Barrage Enginner on the Tournaments on July . Maybe we can see that spec to be used vs stealth Mesmer also

Why? Grenade Engineer isnt particularly good. Its just an example because I play it. Any class can punish thief for trying to stealth mid-combat. Thats why every single good thief doesnt use mid-combat stealth. And yet they use Shadows Embrace, because its still much better. It is that simple. Accept the fact, or be quiet.

Ehm ...other specs too exept the 2x French . The majority of the enemies are Bunkers and while you having the damage reduction from the Daredevil traits , they cannot huke you high enought

And they too didnt use it, other than
exactly
with shadow Refuge and dropping it
exactly
instantly just to get the stealth attack with the shadow projectile finishers. The damage reduction traits wont be active when you try to stealth up (you move out of range and the enemy wont be weak). Right now even bunkers can do a lot of damage, and far from everyone is playing bunkers. You will get nuked.

I thought for a sec that Grenade Engineer , was death incarnate with all these '''if you stealth , you will get nuked by it'' .In lower levels everything works and everything punish each other

The point is that
even
Grenade Engineer can nuke you when you try to stealth. Any build can. Its funny that you bring up lower levels, because its
ONLY
in lower levels that thieves use stealth mid-combat. Because they arent good, and their opponents arent good. In high level, you will almost never see a thief use stealth mid-combat. If they want to run, they shortbow 5. If they want to fight, they use shadow shot, heartseekr or swap to shortbow. But never, ever, under any circumstances, do they go for stealth. And still Shadows Embrace is run. Because its better.

There where other teams that they used D/P and use it to stealth . For example there was a team with 2 Thieves that made it to the top 8 and lost from the 1 French , that their job was to go far and take turns attacking/stealthing up to win matches vs Mesmers + other other Bunkers .

They use
out of combat
stealth. Yes, that is true. However, there Shadows Embrace doesnt matter. Youre out of combat. You didnt have any conditions. They did not use in-combat stealth at all.

At the final 6 , Cheese vs 55rank i believe you could see some stealth ingame action too . If you are near the target >hit> try to stealth up the damage reduction traits will be working fine

Out of combat stealth, yes. In combat stealth, no. And no, they wont, your heartseeker will move you too far away. Sorry.

I hope we can see the Grenade Enginner in the tournament , its sound preety fun for 1-shot aoes burst

It doesnt oneshot anything but the squishy thieves that already took damage from sticking in a fight. Again, you fixate on the wrong things. But let me just reiterate once more. Good thieves do not use in-combat stealth. If they are activaly fighting an enemy, under (almost) no circumstances will they ever stealth, because its suicidal. They will ONLY stealth out of combat. As a result, Shadows Embrace is ONLY used for concealing restoration, a single condi clear on your healing skill. And its still used over hidden thief, because its much better than hidden thief, even then.

Those 2 D/P thiefs took turns . If someone was low on hp he would stealth up in combta , heal and then come back . The same tactic they used in mid in teamfights .Heartseeker is not effected by out of combat stealth or in combat stealth .It travels the same distance , just like Dash . Its ok if you have some questions about how things works

Could you post some pic with the burst of Barrage ? So i wont underestimate it on my que ?

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UNOwen.7132

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@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the
, for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)

It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.

The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleanceI beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources

They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.

If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .Even on Vallun video a while back

Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.

It behaves like Cloack And Dagger

If you cloak and Dagger when youre already stealthed you also get revealed.

Mug its on Deadly spec .And we are talking about meta builds

There is just redundant. Why would you want stealth on steal? You steal backstab when engaging. Youre not gonna steal for stealth mid-combat, and out of combat you have stealth anyway.

You cannot remove a clutch Burn , because they are overbearing conditions. So 1x condtion removal is worthless .

Hardly. Shadows Embrace is nice in that it only removes
damaging
conditions. So if they have burn cripple and so on, you remove the burn. Even 1 condi cleanse is quite valuable, especially on a class that generally lacks them.

I believe that Thief actually use stealth to benefit from it much more

Not really. If you try to stealth mid-combat, you just get hit for a ton more damage than you would remove from the 1 condi cleanse. Youre also not gonna be able to just stay in stealth and wait for another tick, you die before that. Its legitimately just for the healing skill.

Rather than wasting 9 resources on Heartseeker + Powder and then steal , you can instead simply Steal without a cost and gain stealth , also reduce the Shadowsteap from 50>40 sec and Blinding Powder 40>32 sec

Youre going to "waste" those 9 resources anyway, because you want to stack up Leeching Venoms, and you want to engage on them without them ever knowing you were there. Oh and since you use steal on the opening burst, that also means you wont be able to use it later. Reducing the CD of Shadowstep is nice, but not significant enough. You dont use Blinding Powder right now anyway.

Burns can be re-applied , so remove one is kinda worthless . If Thieves stealth more (which i believe they do) they benefit from it much more . The stealth from the healing spell lasts 2 sec (1s from PvP + Melds) , you will only benefit from 1 condtion removal from the start and not a second

They can be, but its still great. They stack the burst on you, and you negate it. And then you run away, so they cant just keep reapplying it. Thats why its great. Thieves do
NOT
stealth more. Because its actively suicidal and just about the only way a thief can get himself killed. It also doesnt benefit more at all. Youre not gonna survive waiting 3 seconds for the second condi removal. And yes, you only get the 1 condi removal at the start. Thats how the trait works.

Yeah you are going to waste 9 resources and stealth for 3 sec , or waste those 9 resources and use Hidden Thief for 6 sec stealth . Reggardles of what stealth method you choose the Leeching Venoms poison will still come up .

And in that case, you burn the steal before you can use it to engage. A complete waste. Both of a trait, and of steal. A terrible idea.

If you use the 20 sec heal that the trait does offer stealth in combat , is a defensive option that most thieves do . Its not suicidal , its called ''tactical get the hell away'' . And still Shadow Embrace is kinda worthless for a 2 sec stealth only . Maybe the majority of the stealth + streamers have a different tactics and use itmore than us ?

Stealth in combat is not a defensive option. Its suicidal. Here is what happens. You plop down a smoke field, try to heartseeker and whoops, your opponent decided to abuse the fact that youre stuck in 1.25 seconds worth of animation, threw some damage youre way, and youre suddenly downed. Why, that doesnt seem useful at all. Thats why you dont do it. Its why top tier streamers dont use it. And no, shadows embrace is still good for Concealing Restoration. Youre right, its not terribly much, but the alternatives are both
worse
. Merciful Ambush doesnt come into play often enough, and Hidden Thief is just not useful.

Rather than having 1 condition removal every 20 sec (on heal>stealth) . Its better to have :

I dont know why you think repeating the same wrong thing maakes it true. No, Hidden Thief is
much
worse. End of story.

But in the other hand if poeple use stealth a lot more , like Vallun it makes sense that they benefit from it more

He doesnt. Look at Vallun. Look at Sindrener. See how often they use in-combat stealth. Unless its to finish off a target (usually when theyre 3 or 4v1) the answer is
never
. And in that situation, shadows embrace isnt doing anything.

Concealing Restoration is more suicidal , because you must wait before the channel ends and then you stealth .

Completely, utterly 100% wrong. When you use channeled vigor, you regain health. You still might take damage, but youre not even locked in an animation, you can move. Its 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times less suicidal.

While doing Black Powder offer some Blind and the Heartseeker some mobility (just like Dash)

You dont get the blind unless you target an enemy then drop targetting, which is clunky. And the mobility doesnt help you because your opponent knows exactly where you will move. Neither of those will save you from the grenade barrage Im aiming at you that will down you instantly. Which is why
EVERY
good thief avoids in-combat stealth. Please, for future reference, dont talk about thief if you dont know thief.

No i am sorry , but you are kinda wrong here .

I am absolutely correct. You are the one who is wrong.

If the majority of the streamers + metabattle have that traits ,it mean that they stealth more and benefit from that trait . Otherwise they would take that Hidden Thief .

Wrong. Hidden Thief is worse. Even if you just use concealing restoration (Which yes, is what they do), it is so much worse. But if you dont believe me, just go ahead and watch Sindrener. He is using Shadows Embrace. See how often he goes for in-combat stealth (Or let me spoil you: Almost never).

They know more than you and me .You could look at the Vallun Video , where he stealth and use Dash to get away from danger . If you some problems with stealthing up , we can meet inside and give you some tips

They do. Thats why they
DONT
stealth mid-combat. They know its suicidal and the worst thing a thief can do by far. Watch
most recent games on sinds youtube channel. Pop Quiz: During the entire 15 minute match, how many times does he stealth mid combat? The answer is
once
. Against a prot holo that cant punish him. Didnt clear any condis doing it though. And still he runs shadows embrace. Why? Because its much better than hidden thief, even if you just use concealing restoration like the good thieves do. Why? Well I already explained.

I saw multiply thieves from the tournament and Vallun use stealth .

Out of combat stealth. Yes. In-combat stealth? No. Well, other than maybe the condi thieves using Shadow Refuge to immediately leave stealth and just proc shadow bolts on the stealth attack. That appears to be how it was used.

And Sind uses the Embrace trait vs heavy condition opponents , while the enemy waste aoes , he hides and uses the trait to cleanse conditions

No, he uses them against
all
opponents. He does not do what you describe
EVER
. Because that doesnt work. You do not stealth mid-combat (unless its to finish off an outnumbered enemy, maybe, and
maybe
if youre facing a low-damage bunker and wanna prepare to switch targets to someone a bit further way. But even in that case, it makes more sense to get out first, then stealth). If you stealth mid-combat, you die unless your opponent is playing a low-damage bunker. And even then you sometimes die. Thats why you dont use it.

I am hopping to see a Grenade Barrage Enginner on the Tournaments on July . Maybe we can see that spec to be used vs stealth Mesmer also

Why? Grenade Engineer isnt particularly good. Its just an example because I play it. Any class can punish thief for trying to stealth mid-combat. Thats why every single good thief doesnt use mid-combat stealth. And yet they use Shadows Embrace, because its still much better. It is that simple. Accept the fact, or be quiet.

Ehm ...other specs too exept the 2x French . The majority of the enemies are Bunkers and while you having the damage reduction from the Daredevil traits , they cannot huke you high enought

And they too didnt use it, other than
exactly
with shadow Refuge and dropping it
exactly
instantly just to get the stealth attack with the shadow projectile finishers. The damage reduction traits wont be active when you try to stealth up (you move out of range and the enemy wont be weak). Right now even bunkers can do a lot of damage, and far from everyone is playing bunkers. You will get nuked.

I thought for a sec that Grenade Engineer , was death incarnate with all these '''if you stealth , you will get nuked by it'' .In lower levels everything works and everything punish each other

The point is that
even
Grenade Engineer can nuke you when you try to stealth. Any build can. Its funny that you bring up lower levels, because its
ONLY
in lower levels that thieves use stealth mid-combat. Because they arent good, and their opponents arent good. In high level, you will almost never see a thief use stealth mid-combat. If they want to run, they shortbow 5. If they want to fight, they use shadow shot, heartseekr or swap to shortbow. But never, ever, under any circumstances, do they go for stealth. And still Shadows Embrace is run. Because its better.

There where other teams that they used D/P and use it to stealth . For example there was a team with 2 Thieves that made it to the top 8 and lost from the 1 French , that their job was to go far and take turns attacking/stealthing up to win matches vs Mesmers + other other Bunkers .

They use
out of combat
stealth. Yes, that is true. However, there Shadows Embrace doesnt matter. Youre out of combat. You didnt have any conditions. They did not use in-combat stealth at all.

At the final 6 , Cheese vs 55rank i believe you could see some stealth ingame action too . If you are near the target >hit> try to stealth up the damage reduction traits will be working fine

Out of combat stealth, yes. In combat stealth, no. And no, they wont, your heartseeker will move you too far away. Sorry.

I hope we can see the Grenade Enginner in the tournament , its sound preety fun for 1-shot aoes burst

It doesnt oneshot anything but the squishy thieves that already took damage from sticking in a fight. Again, you fixate on the wrong things. But let me just reiterate once more. Good thieves do not use in-combat stealth. If they are activaly fighting an enemy, under (almost) no circumstances will they ever stealth, because its suicidal. They will ONLY stealth out of combat. As a result, Shadows Embrace is ONLY used for concealing restoration, a single condi clear on your healing skill. And its still used over hidden thief, because its much better than hidden thief, even then.

Those 2 D/P thiefs took turns . If some1 was low on hp he would stealth up in combta , heal and then come back . The same tactic they used in mid in teamfights .

Im gonna assume that he did not stealth up in combat, but out of combat. A quick look over the game I assume youre describing confirms that assumption. They used out of combat stealth, not in-combat stealth.

Heartseeker is not effected by out of combat stealth or in combat stealth .It travels the same distance , just like Dash . Its ok if you have some questions about how things works

I know, youre missing the point. The point is that when you use in-combat stealth, youre locked into your animation. Your heartseeker will take you a set distance away in a set direction. The enemy will punish and down you. Hence why good thieves do not ever use in-combat stealth. Did you finally understand that? Yes? Good. Lets leave the fact that thief doesnt use in-combat stealth as that, as well as the fact that shadows embrace is used only for concealing restoration and is still better than hidden thief.

Could you post some pic with the burst of Barrage ? So i wont underestimate it on my que ?

Too much effort, cant be bothered.

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Captain Kuro.8937

Captain Kuro.8937

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the
, for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)

It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.

The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleanceI beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources

They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.

If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .Even on Vallun video a while back

Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.

It behaves like Cloack And Dagger

If you cloak and Dagger when youre already stealthed you also get revealed.

Mug its on Deadly spec .And we are talking about meta builds

There is just redundant. Why would you want stealth on steal? You steal backstab when engaging. Youre not gonna steal for stealth mid-combat, and out of combat you have stealth anyway.

You cannot remove a clutch Burn , because they are overbearing conditions. So 1x condtion removal is worthless .

Hardly. Shadows Embrace is nice in that it only removes
damaging
conditions. So if they have burn cripple and so on, you remove the burn. Even 1 condi cleanse is quite valuable, especially on a class that generally lacks them.

I believe that Thief actually use stealth to benefit from it much more

Not really. If you try to stealth mid-combat, you just get hit for a ton more damage than you would remove from the 1 condi cleanse. Youre also not gonna be able to just stay in stealth and wait for another tick, you die before that. Its legitimately just for the healing skill.

Rather than wasting 9 resources on Heartseeker + Powder and then steal , you can instead simply Steal without a cost and gain stealth , also reduce the Shadowsteap from 50>40 sec and Blinding Powder 40>32 sec

Youre going to "waste" those 9 resources anyway, because you want to stack up Leeching Venoms, and you want to engage on them without them ever knowing you were there. Oh and since you use steal on the opening burst, that also means you wont be able to use it later. Reducing the CD of Shadowstep is nice, but not significant enough. You dont use Blinding Powder right now anyway.

Burns can be re-applied , so remove one is kinda worthless . If Thieves stealth more (which i believe they do) they benefit from it much more . The stealth from the healing spell lasts 2 sec (1s from PvP + Melds) , you will only benefit from 1 condtion removal from the start and not a second

They can be, but its still great. They stack the burst on you, and you negate it. And then you run away, so they cant just keep reapplying it. Thats why its great. Thieves do
NOT
stealth more. Because its actively suicidal and just about the only way a thief can get himself killed. It also doesnt benefit more at all. Youre not gonna survive waiting 3 seconds for the second condi removal. And yes, you only get the 1 condi removal at the start. Thats how the trait works.

Yeah you are going to waste 9 resources and stealth for 3 sec , or waste those 9 resources and use Hidden Thief for 6 sec stealth . Reggardles of what stealth method you choose the Leeching Venoms poison will still come up .

And in that case, you burn the steal before you can use it to engage. A complete waste. Both of a trait, and of steal. A terrible idea.

If you use the 20 sec heal that the trait does offer stealth in combat , is a defensive option that most thieves do . Its not suicidal , its called ''tactical get the hell away'' . And still Shadow Embrace is kinda worthless for a 2 sec stealth only . Maybe the majority of the stealth + streamers have a different tactics and use itmore than us ?

Stealth in combat is not a defensive option. Its suicidal. Here is what happens. You plop down a smoke field, try to heartseeker and whoops, your opponent decided to abuse the fact that youre stuck in 1.25 seconds worth of animation, threw some damage youre way, and youre suddenly downed. Why, that doesnt seem useful at all. Thats why you dont do it. Its why top tier streamers dont use it. And no, shadows embrace is still good for Concealing Restoration. Youre right, its not terribly much, but the alternatives are both
worse
. Merciful Ambush doesnt come into play often enough, and Hidden Thief is just not useful.

Rather than having 1 condition removal every 20 sec (on heal>stealth) . Its better to have :

I dont know why you think repeating the same wrong thing maakes it true. No, Hidden Thief is
much
worse. End of story.

But in the other hand if poeple use stealth a lot more , like Vallun it makes sense that they benefit from it more

He doesnt. Look at Vallun. Look at Sindrener. See how often they use in-combat stealth. Unless its to finish off a target (usually when theyre 3 or 4v1) the answer is
never
. And in that situation, shadows embrace isnt doing anything.

Concealing Restoration is more suicidal , because you must wait before the channel ends and then you stealth .

Completely, utterly 100% wrong. When you use channeled vigor, you regain health. You still might take damage, but youre not even locked in an animation, you can move. Its 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times less suicidal.

While doing Black Powder offer some Blind and the Heartseeker some mobility (just like Dash)

You dont get the blind unless you target an enemy then drop targetting, which is clunky. And the mobility doesnt help you because your opponent knows exactly where you will move. Neither of those will save you from the grenade barrage Im aiming at you that will down you instantly. Which is why
EVERY
good thief avoids in-combat stealth. Please, for future reference, dont talk about thief if you dont know thief.

No i am sorry , but you are kinda wrong here .

I am absolutely correct. You are the one who is wrong.

If the majority of the streamers + metabattle have that traits ,it mean that they stealth more and benefit from that trait . Otherwise they would take that Hidden Thief .

Wrong. Hidden Thief is worse. Even if you just use concealing restoration (Which yes, is what they do), it is so much worse. But if you dont believe me, just go ahead and watch Sindrener. He is using Shadows Embrace. See how often he goes for in-combat stealth (Or let me spoil you: Almost never).

They know more than you and me .You could look at the Vallun Video , where he stealth and use Dash to get away from danger . If you some problems with stealthing up , we can meet inside and give you some tips

They do. Thats why they
DONT
stealth mid-combat. They know its suicidal and the worst thing a thief can do by far. Watch
most recent games on sinds youtube channel. Pop Quiz: During the entire 15 minute match, how many times does he stealth mid combat? The answer is
once
. Against a prot holo that cant punish him. Didnt clear any condis doing it though. And still he runs shadows embrace. Why? Because its much better than hidden thief, even if you just use concealing restoration like the good thieves do. Why? Well I already explained.

I saw multiply thieves from the tournament and Vallun use stealth .

Out of combat stealth. Yes. In-combat stealth? No. Well, other than maybe the condi thieves using Shadow Refuge to immediately leave stealth and just proc shadow bolts on the stealth attack. That appears to be how it was used.

And Sind uses the Embrace trait vs heavy condition opponents , while the enemy waste aoes , he hides and uses the trait to cleanse conditions

No, he uses them against
all
opponents. He does not do what you describe
EVER
. Because that doesnt work. You do not stealth mid-combat (unless its to finish off an outnumbered enemy, maybe, and
maybe
if youre facing a low-damage bunker and wanna prepare to switch targets to someone a bit further way. But even in that case, it makes more sense to get out first, then stealth). If you stealth mid-combat, you die unless your opponent is playing a low-damage bunker. And even then you sometimes die. Thats why you dont use it.

I am hopping to see a Grenade Barrage Enginner on the Tournaments on July . Maybe we can see that spec to be used vs stealth Mesmer also

Why? Grenade Engineer isnt particularly good. Its just an example because I play it. Any class can punish thief for trying to stealth mid-combat. Thats why every single good thief doesnt use mid-combat stealth. And yet they use Shadows Embrace, because its still much better. It is that simple. Accept the fact, or be quiet.

Ehm ...other specs too exept the 2x French . The majority of the enemies are Bunkers and while you having the damage reduction from the Daredevil traits , they cannot huke you high enought

And they too didnt use it, other than
exactly
with shadow Refuge and dropping it
exactly
instantly just to get the stealth attack with the shadow projectile finishers. The damage reduction traits wont be active when you try to stealth up (you move out of range and the enemy wont be weak). Right now even bunkers can do a lot of damage, and far from everyone is playing bunkers. You will get nuked.

I thought for a sec that Grenade Engineer , was death incarnate with all these '''if you stealth , you will get nuked by it'' .In lower levels everything works and everything punish each other

The point is that
even
Grenade Engineer can nuke you when you try to stealth. Any build can. Its funny that you bring up lower levels, because its
ONLY
in lower levels that thieves use stealth mid-combat. Because they arent good, and their opponents arent good. In high level, you will almost never see a thief use stealth mid-combat. If they want to run, they shortbow 5. If they want to fight, they use shadow shot, heartseekr or swap to shortbow. But never, ever, under any circumstances, do they go for stealth. And still Shadows Embrace is run. Because its better.

There where other teams that they used D/P and use it to stealth . For example there was a team with 2 Thieves that made it to the top 8 and lost from the 1 French , that their job was to go far and take turns attacking/stealthing up to win matches vs Mesmers + other other Bunkers .

They use
out of combat
stealth. Yes, that is true. However, there Shadows Embrace doesnt matter. Youre out of combat. You didnt have any conditions. They did not use in-combat stealth at all.

At the final 6 , Cheese vs 55rank i believe you could see some stealth ingame action too . If you are near the target >hit> try to stealth up the damage reduction traits will be working fine

Out of combat stealth, yes. In combat stealth, no. And no, they wont, your heartseeker will move you too far away. Sorry.

I hope we can see the Grenade Enginner in the tournament , its sound preety fun for 1-shot aoes burst

It doesnt oneshot anything but the squishy thieves that already took damage from sticking in a fight. Again, you fixate on the wrong things. But let me just reiterate once more. Good thieves do not use in-combat stealth. If they are activaly fighting an enemy, under (almost) no circumstances will they ever stealth, because its suicidal. They will ONLY stealth out of combat. As a result, Shadows Embrace is ONLY used for concealing restoration, a single condi clear on your healing skill. And its still used over hidden thief, because its much better than hidden thief, even then.

Those 2 D/P thiefs took turns . If some1 was low on hp he would stealth up in combta , heal and then come back . The same tactic they used in mid in teamfights .

Im gonna assume that he did not stealth up in combat, but out of combat. A quick look over the game I assume youre describing confirms that assumption. They used out of combat stealth, not in-combat stealth.

Heartseeker is not effected by out of combat stealth or in combat stealth .It travels the same distance , just like Dash . Its ok if you have some questions about how things works

I know, youre missing the point. The point is that when you use in-combat stealth, youre locked into your animation. Your heartseeker will take you a set distance away in a set direction. The enemy will punish and down you. Hence why good thieves do not ever use in-combat stealth. Did you finally understand that? Yes? Good. Lets leave the fact that thief doesnt use in-combat stealth as that, as well as the fact that shadows embrace is used only for concealing restoration and is still better than hidden thief.

Could you post some pic with the burst of Barrage ? So i wont underestimate it on my que ?

Too much effort, cant be bothered.

I am sure 100% that that team with the those 2x Thieves that made it to the final 8 , they used Heartseeker+ Powder for stealth , when they where 50% hp . While the other maintain the pressure . Or like other thieves from other teams .Not all classes punish you while you do the stealth combo , and the 90% of the majority are Bunkers . In lower tiers where everyone is wearing Berseker amulets , they might punish the thief for trying to stealth up . But the current meta is Bunker-ConditionHence they stealth up and use the Shadow Embrace trait and cannot punish you entirely while stealth

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UNOwen.7132

UNOwen.7132

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@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the
, for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)

It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.

The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleanceI beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources

They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.

If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .Even on Vallun video a while back

Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.

It behaves like Cloack And Dagger

If you cloak and Dagger when youre already stealthed you also get revealed.

Mug its on Deadly spec .And we are talking about meta builds

There is just redundant. Why would you want stealth on steal? You steal backstab when engaging. Youre not gonna steal for stealth mid-combat, and out of combat you have stealth anyway.

You cannot remove a clutch Burn , because they are overbearing conditions. So 1x condtion removal is worthless .

Hardly. Shadows Embrace is nice in that it only removes
damaging
conditions. So if they have burn cripple and so on, you remove the burn. Even 1 condi cleanse is quite valuable, especially on a class that generally lacks them.

I believe that Thief actually use stealth to benefit from it much more

Not really. If you try to stealth mid-combat, you just get hit for a ton more damage than you would remove from the 1 condi cleanse. Youre also not gonna be able to just stay in stealth and wait for another tick, you die before that. Its legitimately just for the healing skill.

Rather than wasting 9 resources on Heartseeker + Powder and then steal , you can instead simply Steal without a cost and gain stealth , also reduce the Shadowsteap from 50>40 sec and Blinding Powder 40>32 sec

Youre going to "waste" those 9 resources anyway, because you want to stack up Leeching Venoms, and you want to engage on them without them ever knowing you were there. Oh and since you use steal on the opening burst, that also means you wont be able to use it later. Reducing the CD of Shadowstep is nice, but not significant enough. You dont use Blinding Powder right now anyway.

Burns can be re-applied , so remove one is kinda worthless . If Thieves stealth more (which i believe they do) they benefit from it much more . The stealth from the healing spell lasts 2 sec (1s from PvP + Melds) , you will only benefit from 1 condtion removal from the start and not a second

They can be, but its still great. They stack the burst on you, and you negate it. And then you run away, so they cant just keep reapplying it. Thats why its great. Thieves do
NOT
stealth more. Because its actively suicidal and just about the only way a thief can get himself killed. It also doesnt benefit more at all. Youre not gonna survive waiting 3 seconds for the second condi removal. And yes, you only get the 1 condi removal at the start. Thats how the trait works.

Yeah you are going to waste 9 resources and stealth for 3 sec , or waste those 9 resources and use Hidden Thief for 6 sec stealth . Reggardles of what stealth method you choose the Leeching Venoms poison will still come up .

And in that case, you burn the steal before you can use it to engage. A complete waste. Both of a trait, and of steal. A terrible idea.

If you use the 20 sec heal that the trait does offer stealth in combat , is a defensive option that most thieves do . Its not suicidal , its called ''tactical get the hell away'' . And still Shadow Embrace is kinda worthless for a 2 sec stealth only . Maybe the majority of the stealth + streamers have a different tactics and use itmore than us ?

Stealth in combat is not a defensive option. Its suicidal. Here is what happens. You plop down a smoke field, try to heartseeker and whoops, your opponent decided to abuse the fact that youre stuck in 1.25 seconds worth of animation, threw some damage youre way, and youre suddenly downed. Why, that doesnt seem useful at all. Thats why you dont do it. Its why top tier streamers dont use it. And no, shadows embrace is still good for Concealing Restoration. Youre right, its not terribly much, but the alternatives are both
worse
. Merciful Ambush doesnt come into play often enough, and Hidden Thief is just not useful.

Rather than having 1 condition removal every 20 sec (on heal>stealth) . Its better to have :

I dont know why you think repeating the same wrong thing maakes it true. No, Hidden Thief is
much
worse. End of story.

But in the other hand if poeple use stealth a lot more , like Vallun it makes sense that they benefit from it more

He doesnt. Look at Vallun. Look at Sindrener. See how often they use in-combat stealth. Unless its to finish off a target (usually when theyre 3 or 4v1) the answer is
never
. And in that situation, shadows embrace isnt doing anything.

Concealing Restoration is more suicidal , because you must wait before the channel ends and then you stealth .

Completely, utterly 100% wrong. When you use channeled vigor, you regain health. You still might take damage, but youre not even locked in an animation, you can move. Its 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times less suicidal.

While doing Black Powder offer some Blind and the Heartseeker some mobility (just like Dash)

You dont get the blind unless you target an enemy then drop targetting, which is clunky. And the mobility doesnt help you because your opponent knows exactly where you will move. Neither of those will save you from the grenade barrage Im aiming at you that will down you instantly. Which is why
EVERY
good thief avoids in-combat stealth. Please, for future reference, dont talk about thief if you dont know thief.

No i am sorry , but you are kinda wrong here .

I am absolutely correct. You are the one who is wrong.

If the majority of the streamers + metabattle have that traits ,it mean that they stealth more and benefit from that trait . Otherwise they would take that Hidden Thief .

Wrong. Hidden Thief is worse. Even if you just use concealing restoration (Which yes, is what they do), it is so much worse. But if you dont believe me, just go ahead and watch Sindrener. He is using Shadows Embrace. See how often he goes for in-combat stealth (Or let me spoil you: Almost never).

They know more than you and me .You could look at the Vallun Video , where he stealth and use Dash to get away from danger . If you some problems with stealthing up , we can meet inside and give you some tips

They do. Thats why they
DONT
stealth mid-combat. They know its suicidal and the worst thing a thief can do by far. Watch
most recent games on sinds youtube channel. Pop Quiz: During the entire 15 minute match, how many times does he stealth mid combat? The answer is
once
. Against a prot holo that cant punish him. Didnt clear any condis doing it though. And still he runs shadows embrace. Why? Because its much better than hidden thief, even if you just use concealing restoration like the good thieves do. Why? Well I already explained.

I saw multiply thieves from the tournament and Vallun use stealth .

Out of combat stealth. Yes. In-combat stealth? No. Well, other than maybe the condi thieves using Shadow Refuge to immediately leave stealth and just proc shadow bolts on the stealth attack. That appears to be how it was used.

And Sind uses the Embrace trait vs heavy condition opponents , while the enemy waste aoes , he hides and uses the trait to cleanse conditions

No, he uses them against
all
opponents. He does not do what you describe
EVER
. Because that doesnt work. You do not stealth mid-combat (unless its to finish off an outnumbered enemy, maybe, and
maybe
if youre facing a low-damage bunker and wanna prepare to switch targets to someone a bit further way. But even in that case, it makes more sense to get out first, then stealth). If you stealth mid-combat, you die unless your opponent is playing a low-damage bunker. And even then you sometimes die. Thats why you dont use it.

I am hopping to see a Grenade Barrage Enginner on the Tournaments on July . Maybe we can see that spec to be used vs stealth Mesmer also

Why? Grenade Engineer isnt particularly good. Its just an example because I play it. Any class can punish thief for trying to stealth mid-combat. Thats why every single good thief doesnt use mid-combat stealth. And yet they use Shadows Embrace, because its still much better. It is that simple. Accept the fact, or be quiet.

Ehm ...other specs too exept the 2x French . The majority of the enemies are Bunkers and while you having the damage reduction from the Daredevil traits , they cannot huke you high enought

And they too didnt use it, other than
exactly
with shadow Refuge and dropping it
exactly
instantly just to get the stealth attack with the shadow projectile finishers. The damage reduction traits wont be active when you try to stealth up (you move out of range and the enemy wont be weak). Right now even bunkers can do a lot of damage, and far from everyone is playing bunkers. You will get nuked.

I thought for a sec that Grenade Engineer , was death incarnate with all these '''if you stealth , you will get nuked by it'' .In lower levels everything works and everything punish each other

The point is that
even
Grenade Engineer can nuke you when you try to stealth. Any build can. Its funny that you bring up lower levels, because its
ONLY
in lower levels that thieves use stealth mid-combat. Because they arent good, and their opponents arent good. In high level, you will almost never see a thief use stealth mid-combat. If they want to run, they shortbow 5. If they want to fight, they use shadow shot, heartseekr or swap to shortbow. But never, ever, under any circumstances, do they go for stealth. And still Shadows Embrace is run. Because its better.

There where other teams that they used D/P and use it to stealth . For example there was a team with 2 Thieves that made it to the top 8 and lost from the 1 French , that their job was to go far and take turns attacking/stealthing up to win matches vs Mesmers + other other Bunkers .

They use
out of combat
stealth. Yes, that is true. However, there Shadows Embrace doesnt matter. Youre out of combat. You didnt have any conditions. They did not use in-combat stealth at all.

At the final 6 , Cheese vs 55rank i believe you could see some stealth ingame action too . If you are near the target >hit> try to stealth up the damage reduction traits will be working fine

Out of combat stealth, yes. In combat stealth, no. And no, they wont, your heartseeker will move you too far away. Sorry.

I hope we can see the Grenade Enginner in the tournament , its sound preety fun for 1-shot aoes burst

It doesnt oneshot anything but the squishy thieves that already took damage from sticking in a fight. Again, you fixate on the wrong things. But let me just reiterate once more. Good thieves do not use in-combat stealth. If they are activaly fighting an enemy, under (almost) no circumstances will they ever stealth, because its suicidal. They will ONLY stealth out of combat. As a result, Shadows Embrace is ONLY used for concealing restoration, a single condi clear on your healing skill. And its still used over hidden thief, because its much better than hidden thief, even then.

Those 2 D/P thiefs took turns . If some1 was low on hp he would stealth up in combta , heal and then come back . The same tactic they used in mid in teamfights .

Im gonna assume that he did not stealth up in combat, but out of combat. A quick look over the game I assume youre describing confirms that assumption. They used out of combat stealth, not in-combat stealth.

Heartseeker is not effected by out of combat stealth or in combat stealth .It travels the same distance , just like Dash . Its ok if you have some questions about how things works

I know, youre missing the point. The point is that when you use in-combat stealth, youre locked into your animation. Your heartseeker will take you a set distance away in a set direction. The enemy will punish and down you. Hence why good thieves do not ever use in-combat stealth. Did you finally understand that? Yes? Good. Lets leave the fact that thief doesnt use in-combat stealth as that, as well as the fact that shadows embrace is used only for concealing restoration and is still better than hidden thief.

Could you post some pic with the burst of Barrage ? So i wont underestimate it on my que ?

Too much effort, cant be bothered.

I am sure 100% that that team with the those 2x Thieves that made it to the final 8 , they used Heartseeker+ Powder for stealth , when they where 50% hp . While the other maintain the pressure . Or like other thieves from other teams .

The only one I saw did not use it in-combat. When they wanted to get out, they did like any good thief does, and shortbow 5 out. If they tried to BP + Heartseeker for stealth when they were at 50%, they wouldve just died.

Not all classes punish you while you do the stealth combo , and the 90% of the majority are Bunkers . In lower tiers where everyone is wearing Berseker amulets , they might punish the thief for trying to stealth up . But the current meta is Bunker-Condition

Incorrect. All classes punish you when doing the stealth combo. Most arent bunkers. Condi isnt meta (hence why condi thief was such an upset). In lower tiers, people use stealth, because the thieves are bad and dont know its bad, and the enemies are bad and dont punish it. In high level, they do not ever use stealth mid-combat.

Hence they stealth up and use the Shadow Embrace trait

Incorrect. They do not stealth up, and shadows embrace is used exclusively for concealing restoration. As I have explained, both of these are undeniable facts. You can look at all of Sindreners games, you will see he does not ever stealth up mid-combat. For this exact same reason. And he still uses Shadows Embrace. Because its still better than hidden thief. Is the fact that these are undeniable facts finally clear to you? Because I would like to not have to repeat myself just because you want to believe that thieves use in-combat stealth, despite it being undeniable fact that they do not.

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Captain Kuro.8937

Captain Kuro.8937

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the
, for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)

It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.

The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleanceI beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources

They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.

If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .Even on Vallun video a while back

Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.

It behaves like Cloack And Dagger

If you cloak and Dagger when youre already stealthed you also get revealed.

Mug its on Deadly spec .And we are talking about meta builds

There is just redundant. Why would you want stealth on steal? You steal backstab when engaging. Youre not gonna steal for stealth mid-combat, and out of combat you have stealth anyway.

You cannot remove a clutch Burn , because they are overbearing conditions. So 1x condtion removal is worthless .

Hardly. Shadows Embrace is nice in that it only removes
damaging
conditions. So if they have burn cripple and so on, you remove the burn. Even 1 condi cleanse is quite valuable, especially on a class that generally lacks them.

I believe that Thief actually use stealth to benefit from it much more

Not really. If you try to stealth mid-combat, you just get hit for a ton more damage than you would remove from the 1 condi cleanse. Youre also not gonna be able to just stay in stealth and wait for another tick, you die before that. Its legitimately just for the healing skill.

Rather than wasting 9 resources on Heartseeker + Powder and then steal , you can instead simply Steal without a cost and gain stealth , also reduce the Shadowsteap from 50>40 sec and Blinding Powder 40>32 sec

Youre going to "waste" those 9 resources anyway, because you want to stack up Leeching Venoms, and you want to engage on them without them ever knowing you were there. Oh and since you use steal on the opening burst, that also means you wont be able to use it later. Reducing the CD of Shadowstep is nice, but not significant enough. You dont use Blinding Powder right now anyway.

Burns can be re-applied , so remove one is kinda worthless . If Thieves stealth more (which i believe they do) they benefit from it much more . The stealth from the healing spell lasts 2 sec (1s from PvP + Melds) , you will only benefit from 1 condtion removal from the start and not a second

They can be, but its still great. They stack the burst on you, and you negate it. And then you run away, so they cant just keep reapplying it. Thats why its great. Thieves do
NOT
stealth more. Because its actively suicidal and just about the only way a thief can get himself killed. It also doesnt benefit more at all. Youre not gonna survive waiting 3 seconds for the second condi removal. And yes, you only get the 1 condi removal at the start. Thats how the trait works.

Yeah you are going to waste 9 resources and stealth for 3 sec , or waste those 9 resources and use Hidden Thief for 6 sec stealth . Reggardles of what stealth method you choose the Leeching Venoms poison will still come up .

And in that case, you burn the steal before you can use it to engage. A complete waste. Both of a trait, and of steal. A terrible idea.

If you use the 20 sec heal that the trait does offer stealth in combat , is a defensive option that most thieves do . Its not suicidal , its called ''tactical get the hell away'' . And still Shadow Embrace is kinda worthless for a 2 sec stealth only . Maybe the majority of the stealth + streamers have a different tactics and use itmore than us ?

Stealth in combat is not a defensive option. Its suicidal. Here is what happens. You plop down a smoke field, try to heartseeker and whoops, your opponent decided to abuse the fact that youre stuck in 1.25 seconds worth of animation, threw some damage youre way, and youre suddenly downed. Why, that doesnt seem useful at all. Thats why you dont do it. Its why top tier streamers dont use it. And no, shadows embrace is still good for Concealing Restoration. Youre right, its not terribly much, but the alternatives are both
worse
. Merciful Ambush doesnt come into play often enough, and Hidden Thief is just not useful.

Rather than having 1 condition removal every 20 sec (on heal>stealth) . Its better to have :

I dont know why you think repeating the same wrong thing maakes it true. No, Hidden Thief is
much
worse. End of story.

But in the other hand if poeple use stealth a lot more , like Vallun it makes sense that they benefit from it more

He doesnt. Look at Vallun. Look at Sindrener. See how often they use in-combat stealth. Unless its to finish off a target (usually when theyre 3 or 4v1) the answer is
never
. And in that situation, shadows embrace isnt doing anything.

Concealing Restoration is more suicidal , because you must wait before the channel ends and then you stealth .

Completely, utterly 100% wrong. When you use channeled vigor, you regain health. You still might take damage, but youre not even locked in an animation, you can move. Its 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times less suicidal.

While doing Black Powder offer some Blind and the Heartseeker some mobility (just like Dash)

You dont get the blind unless you target an enemy then drop targetting, which is clunky. And the mobility doesnt help you because your opponent knows exactly where you will move. Neither of those will save you from the grenade barrage Im aiming at you that will down you instantly. Which is why
EVERY
good thief avoids in-combat stealth. Please, for future reference, dont talk about thief if you dont know thief.

No i am sorry , but you are kinda wrong here .

I am absolutely correct. You are the one who is wrong.

If the majority of the streamers + metabattle have that traits ,it mean that they stealth more and benefit from that trait . Otherwise they would take that Hidden Thief .

Wrong. Hidden Thief is worse. Even if you just use concealing restoration (Which yes, is what they do), it is so much worse. But if you dont believe me, just go ahead and watch Sindrener. He is using Shadows Embrace. See how often he goes for in-combat stealth (Or let me spoil you: Almost never).

They know more than you and me .You could look at the Vallun Video , where he stealth and use Dash to get away from danger . If you some problems with stealthing up , we can meet inside and give you some tips

They do. Thats why they
DONT
stealth mid-combat. They know its suicidal and the worst thing a thief can do by far. Watch
most recent games on sinds youtube channel. Pop Quiz: During the entire 15 minute match, how many times does he stealth mid combat? The answer is
once
. Against a prot holo that cant punish him. Didnt clear any condis doing it though. And still he runs shadows embrace. Why? Because its much better than hidden thief, even if you just use concealing restoration like the good thieves do. Why? Well I already explained.

I saw multiply thieves from the tournament and Vallun use stealth .

Out of combat stealth. Yes. In-combat stealth? No. Well, other than maybe the condi thieves using Shadow Refuge to immediately leave stealth and just proc shadow bolts on the stealth attack. That appears to be how it was used.

And Sind uses the Embrace trait vs heavy condition opponents , while the enemy waste aoes , he hides and uses the trait to cleanse conditions

No, he uses them against
all
opponents. He does not do what you describe
EVER
. Because that doesnt work. You do not stealth mid-combat (unless its to finish off an outnumbered enemy, maybe, and
maybe
if youre facing a low-damage bunker and wanna prepare to switch targets to someone a bit further way. But even in that case, it makes more sense to get out first, then stealth). If you stealth mid-combat, you die unless your opponent is playing a low-damage bunker. And even then you sometimes die. Thats why you dont use it.

I am hopping to see a Grenade Barrage Enginner on the Tournaments on July . Maybe we can see that spec to be used vs stealth Mesmer also

Why? Grenade Engineer isnt particularly good. Its just an example because I play it. Any class can punish thief for trying to stealth mid-combat. Thats why every single good thief doesnt use mid-combat stealth. And yet they use Shadows Embrace, because its still much better. It is that simple. Accept the fact, or be quiet.

Ehm ...other specs too exept the 2x French . The majority of the enemies are Bunkers and while you having the damage reduction from the Daredevil traits , they cannot huke you high enought

And they too didnt use it, other than
exactly
with shadow Refuge and dropping it
exactly
instantly just to get the stealth attack with the shadow projectile finishers. The damage reduction traits wont be active when you try to stealth up (you move out of range and the enemy wont be weak). Right now even bunkers can do a lot of damage, and far from everyone is playing bunkers. You will get nuked.

I thought for a sec that Grenade Engineer , was death incarnate with all these '''if you stealth , you will get nuked by it'' .In lower levels everything works and everything punish each other

The point is that
even
Grenade Engineer can nuke you when you try to stealth. Any build can. Its funny that you bring up lower levels, because its
ONLY
in lower levels that thieves use stealth mid-combat. Because they arent good, and their opponents arent good. In high level, you will almost never see a thief use stealth mid-combat. If they want to run, they shortbow 5. If they want to fight, they use shadow shot, heartseekr or swap to shortbow. But never, ever, under any circumstances, do they go for stealth. And still Shadows Embrace is run. Because its better.

There where other teams that they used D/P and use it to stealth . For example there was a team with 2 Thieves that made it to the top 8 and lost from the 1 French , that their job was to go far and take turns attacking/stealthing up to win matches vs Mesmers + other other Bunkers .

They use
out of combat
stealth. Yes, that is true. However, there Shadows Embrace doesnt matter. Youre out of combat. You didnt have any conditions. They did not use in-combat stealth at all.

At the final 6 , Cheese vs 55rank i believe you could see some stealth ingame action too . If you are near the target >hit> try to stealth up the damage reduction traits will be working fine

Out of combat stealth, yes. In combat stealth, no. And no, they wont, your heartseeker will move you too far away. Sorry.

I hope we can see the Grenade Enginner in the tournament , its sound preety fun for 1-shot aoes burst

It doesnt oneshot anything but the squishy thieves that already took damage from sticking in a fight. Again, you fixate on the wrong things. But let me just reiterate once more. Good thieves do not use in-combat stealth. If they are activaly fighting an enemy, under (almost) no circumstances will they ever stealth, because its suicidal. They will ONLY stealth out of combat. As a result, Shadows Embrace is ONLY used for concealing restoration, a single condi clear on your healing skill. And its still used over hidden thief, because its much better than hidden thief, even then.

Those 2 D/P thiefs took turns . If some1 was low on hp he would stealth up in combta , heal and then come back . The same tactic they used in mid in teamfights .

Im gonna assume that he did not stealth up in combat, but out of combat. A quick look over the game I assume youre describing confirms that assumption. They used out of combat stealth, not in-combat stealth.

Heartseeker is not effected by out of combat stealth or in combat stealth .It travels the same distance , just like Dash . Its ok if you have some questions about how things works

I know, youre missing the point. The point is that when you use in-combat stealth, youre locked into your animation. Your heartseeker will take you a set distance away in a set direction. The enemy will punish and down you. Hence why good thieves do not ever use in-combat stealth. Did you finally understand that? Yes? Good. Lets leave the fact that thief doesnt use in-combat stealth as that, as well as the fact that shadows embrace is used only for concealing restoration and is still better than hidden thief.

Could you post some pic with the burst of Barrage ? So i wont underestimate it on my que ?

Too much effort, cant be bothered.

I am sure 100% that that team with the those 2x Thieves that made it to the final 8 , they used Heartseeker+ Powder for stealth , when they where 50% hp . While the other maintain the pressure . Or like other thieves from other teams .

The only one I saw did not use it in-combat. When they wanted to get out, they did like any good thief does, and shortbow 5 out. If they tried to BP + Heartseeker for stealth when they were at 50%, they wouldve just died.

Not all classes punish you while you do the stealth combo , and the 90% of the majority are Bunkers . In lower tiers where everyone is wearing Berseker amulets , they might punish the thief for trying to stealth up . But the current meta is Bunker-Condition

Incorrect. All classes punish you when doing the stealth combo. Most arent bunkers. Condi isnt meta (hence why condi thief was such an upset). In lower tiers, people use stealth, because the thieves are bad and dont know its bad, and the enemies are bad and dont punish it. In high level, they do not ever use stealth mid-combat.

Hence they stealth up and use the Shadow Embrace trait

Incorrect. They do not stealth up, and shadows embrace is used exclusively for concealing restoration. As I have explained, both of these are undeniable facts. You can look at all of Sindreners games, you will see he does not ever stealth up mid-combat. For this exact same reason. And he still uses Shadows Embrace. Because its still better than hidden thief. Is the fact that these are undeniable facts finally clear to you? Because I would like to not have to repeat myself just because you want to believe that thieves use in-combat stealth, despite it being undeniable fact that they do not.

First of all thieves have Dash also , which is free if they are going to escape .And secondary you should watch the Tournament stream , you might take some ideas about the tricks on stealthing in-combat .Or meet me ingame

If in lower levels , the people dont know how to punish a person stealthing , while in higher tiers people using D/P combo to stealth in combat . So the premise that people avoiding stealth , holds no true :)

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UNOwen.7132

UNOwen.7132

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@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the
, for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)

It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.

The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleanceI beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources

They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.

If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .Even on Vallun video a while back

Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.

It behaves like Cloack And Dagger

If you cloak and Dagger when youre already stealthed you also get revealed.

Mug its on Deadly spec .And we are talking about meta builds

There is just redundant. Why would you want stealth on steal? You steal backstab when engaging. Youre not gonna steal for stealth mid-combat, and out of combat you have stealth anyway.

You cannot remove a clutch Burn , because they are overbearing conditions. So 1x condtion removal is worthless .

Hardly. Shadows Embrace is nice in that it only removes
damaging
conditions. So if they have burn cripple and so on, you remove the burn. Even 1 condi cleanse is quite valuable, especially on a class that generally lacks them.

I believe that Thief actually use stealth to benefit from it much more

Not really. If you try to stealth mid-combat, you just get hit for a ton more damage than you would remove from the 1 condi cleanse. Youre also not gonna be able to just stay in stealth and wait for another tick, you die before that. Its legitimately just for the healing skill.

Rather than wasting 9 resources on Heartseeker + Powder and then steal , you can instead simply Steal without a cost and gain stealth , also reduce the Shadowsteap from 50>40 sec and Blinding Powder 40>32 sec

Youre going to "waste" those 9 resources anyway, because you want to stack up Leeching Venoms, and you want to engage on them without them ever knowing you were there. Oh and since you use steal on the opening burst, that also means you wont be able to use it later. Reducing the CD of Shadowstep is nice, but not significant enough. You dont use Blinding Powder right now anyway.

Burns can be re-applied , so remove one is kinda worthless . If Thieves stealth more (which i believe they do) they benefit from it much more . The stealth from the healing spell lasts 2 sec (1s from PvP + Melds) , you will only benefit from 1 condtion removal from the start and not a second

They can be, but its still great. They stack the burst on you, and you negate it. And then you run away, so they cant just keep reapplying it. Thats why its great. Thieves do
NOT
stealth more. Because its actively suicidal and just about the only way a thief can get himself killed. It also doesnt benefit more at all. Youre not gonna survive waiting 3 seconds for the second condi removal. And yes, you only get the 1 condi removal at the start. Thats how the trait works.

Yeah you are going to waste 9 resources and stealth for 3 sec , or waste those 9 resources and use Hidden Thief for 6 sec stealth . Reggardles of what stealth method you choose the Leeching Venoms poison will still come up .

And in that case, you burn the steal before you can use it to engage. A complete waste. Both of a trait, and of steal. A terrible idea.

If you use the 20 sec heal that the trait does offer stealth in combat , is a defensive option that most thieves do . Its not suicidal , its called ''tactical get the hell away'' . And still Shadow Embrace is kinda worthless for a 2 sec stealth only . Maybe the majority of the stealth + streamers have a different tactics and use itmore than us ?

Stealth in combat is not a defensive option. Its suicidal. Here is what happens. You plop down a smoke field, try to heartseeker and whoops, your opponent decided to abuse the fact that youre stuck in 1.25 seconds worth of animation, threw some damage youre way, and youre suddenly downed. Why, that doesnt seem useful at all. Thats why you dont do it. Its why top tier streamers dont use it. And no, shadows embrace is still good for Concealing Restoration. Youre right, its not terribly much, but the alternatives are both
worse
. Merciful Ambush doesnt come into play often enough, and Hidden Thief is just not useful.

Rather than having 1 condition removal every 20 sec (on heal>stealth) . Its better to have :

I dont know why you think repeating the same wrong thing maakes it true. No, Hidden Thief is
much
worse. End of story.

But in the other hand if poeple use stealth a lot more , like Vallun it makes sense that they benefit from it more

He doesnt. Look at Vallun. Look at Sindrener. See how often they use in-combat stealth. Unless its to finish off a target (usually when theyre 3 or 4v1) the answer is
never
. And in that situation, shadows embrace isnt doing anything.

Concealing Restoration is more suicidal , because you must wait before the channel ends and then you stealth .

Completely, utterly 100% wrong. When you use channeled vigor, you regain health. You still might take damage, but youre not even locked in an animation, you can move. Its 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times less suicidal.

While doing Black Powder offer some Blind and the Heartseeker some mobility (just like Dash)

You dont get the blind unless you target an enemy then drop targetting, which is clunky. And the mobility doesnt help you because your opponent knows exactly where you will move. Neither of those will save you from the grenade barrage Im aiming at you that will down you instantly. Which is why
EVERY
good thief avoids in-combat stealth. Please, for future reference, dont talk about thief if you dont know thief.

No i am sorry , but you are kinda wrong here .

I am absolutely correct. You are the one who is wrong.

If the majority of the streamers + metabattle have that traits ,it mean that they stealth more and benefit from that trait . Otherwise they would take that Hidden Thief .

Wrong. Hidden Thief is worse. Even if you just use concealing restoration (Which yes, is what they do), it is so much worse. But if you dont believe me, just go ahead and watch Sindrener. He is using Shadows Embrace. See how often he goes for in-combat stealth (Or let me spoil you: Almost never).

They know more than you and me .You could look at the Vallun Video , where he stealth and use Dash to get away from danger . If you some problems with stealthing up , we can meet inside and give you some tips

They do. Thats why they
DONT
stealth mid-combat. They know its suicidal and the worst thing a thief can do by far. Watch
most recent games on sinds youtube channel. Pop Quiz: During the entire 15 minute match, how many times does he stealth mid combat? The answer is
once
. Against a prot holo that cant punish him. Didnt clear any condis doing it though. And still he runs shadows embrace. Why? Because its much better than hidden thief, even if you just use concealing restoration like the good thieves do. Why? Well I already explained.

I saw multiply thieves from the tournament and Vallun use stealth .

Out of combat stealth. Yes. In-combat stealth? No. Well, other than maybe the condi thieves using Shadow Refuge to immediately leave stealth and just proc shadow bolts on the stealth attack. That appears to be how it was used.

And Sind uses the Embrace trait vs heavy condition opponents , while the enemy waste aoes , he hides and uses the trait to cleanse conditions

No, he uses them against
all
opponents. He does not do what you describe
EVER
. Because that doesnt work. You do not stealth mid-combat (unless its to finish off an outnumbered enemy, maybe, and
maybe
if youre facing a low-damage bunker and wanna prepare to switch targets to someone a bit further way. But even in that case, it makes more sense to get out first, then stealth). If you stealth mid-combat, you die unless your opponent is playing a low-damage bunker. And even then you sometimes die. Thats why you dont use it.

I am hopping to see a Grenade Barrage Enginner on the Tournaments on July . Maybe we can see that spec to be used vs stealth Mesmer also

Why? Grenade Engineer isnt particularly good. Its just an example because I play it. Any class can punish thief for trying to stealth mid-combat. Thats why every single good thief doesnt use mid-combat stealth. And yet they use Shadows Embrace, because its still much better. It is that simple. Accept the fact, or be quiet.

Ehm ...other specs too exept the 2x French . The majority of the enemies are Bunkers and while you having the damage reduction from the Daredevil traits , they cannot huke you high enought

And they too didnt use it, other than
exactly
with shadow Refuge and dropping it
exactly
instantly just to get the stealth attack with the shadow projectile finishers. The damage reduction traits wont be active when you try to stealth up (you move out of range and the enemy wont be weak). Right now even bunkers can do a lot of damage, and far from everyone is playing bunkers. You will get nuked.

I thought for a sec that Grenade Engineer , was death incarnate with all these '''if you stealth , you will get nuked by it'' .In lower levels everything works and everything punish each other

The point is that
even
Grenade Engineer can nuke you when you try to stealth. Any build can. Its funny that you bring up lower levels, because its
ONLY
in lower levels that thieves use stealth mid-combat. Because they arent good, and their opponents arent good. In high level, you will almost never see a thief use stealth mid-combat. If they want to run, they shortbow 5. If they want to fight, they use shadow shot, heartseekr or swap to shortbow. But never, ever, under any circumstances, do they go for stealth. And still Shadows Embrace is run. Because its better.

There where other teams that they used D/P and use it to stealth . For example there was a team with 2 Thieves that made it to the top 8 and lost from the 1 French , that their job was to go far and take turns attacking/stealthing up to win matches vs Mesmers + other other Bunkers .

They use
out of combat
stealth. Yes, that is true. However, there Shadows Embrace doesnt matter. Youre out of combat. You didnt have any conditions. They did not use in-combat stealth at all.

At the final 6 , Cheese vs 55rank i believe you could see some stealth ingame action too . If you are near the target >hit> try to stealth up the damage reduction traits will be working fine

Out of combat stealth, yes. In combat stealth, no. And no, they wont, your heartseeker will move you too far away. Sorry.

I hope we can see the Grenade Enginner in the tournament , its sound preety fun for 1-shot aoes burst

It doesnt oneshot anything but the squishy thieves that already took damage from sticking in a fight. Again, you fixate on the wrong things. But let me just reiterate once more. Good thieves do not use in-combat stealth. If they are activaly fighting an enemy, under (almost) no circumstances will they ever stealth, because its suicidal. They will ONLY stealth out of combat. As a result, Shadows Embrace is ONLY used for concealing restoration, a single condi clear on your healing skill. And its still used over hidden thief, because its much better than hidden thief, even then.

Those 2 D/P thiefs took turns . If some1 was low on hp he would stealth up in combta , heal and then come back . The same tactic they used in mid in teamfights .

Im gonna assume that he did not stealth up in combat, but out of combat. A quick look over the game I assume youre describing confirms that assumption. They used out of combat stealth, not in-combat stealth.

Heartseeker is not effected by out of combat stealth or in combat stealth .It travels the same distance , just like Dash . Its ok if you have some questions about how things works

I know, youre missing the point. The point is that when you use in-combat stealth, youre locked into your animation. Your heartseeker will take you a set distance away in a set direction. The enemy will punish and down you. Hence why good thieves do not ever use in-combat stealth. Did you finally understand that? Yes? Good. Lets leave the fact that thief doesnt use in-combat stealth as that, as well as the fact that shadows embrace is used only for concealing restoration and is still better than hidden thief.

Could you post some pic with the burst of Barrage ? So i wont underestimate it on my que ?

Too much effort, cant be bothered.

I am sure 100% that that team with the those 2x Thieves that made it to the final 8 , they used Heartseeker+ Powder for stealth , when they where 50% hp . While the other maintain the pressure . Or like other thieves from other teams .

The only one I saw did not use it in-combat. When they wanted to get out, they did like any good thief does, and shortbow 5 out. If they tried to BP + Heartseeker for stealth when they were at 50%, they wouldve just died.

Not all classes punish you while you do the stealth combo , and the 90% of the majority are Bunkers . In lower tiers where everyone is wearing Berseker amulets , they might punish the thief for trying to stealth up . But the current meta is Bunker-Condition

Incorrect. All classes punish you when doing the stealth combo. Most arent bunkers. Condi isnt meta (hence why condi thief was such an upset). In lower tiers, people use stealth, because the thieves are bad and dont know its bad, and the enemies are bad and dont punish it. In high level, they do not ever use stealth mid-combat.

Hence they stealth up and use the Shadow Embrace trait

Incorrect. They do not stealth up, and shadows embrace is used exclusively for concealing restoration. As I have explained, both of these are undeniable facts. You can look at all of Sindreners games, you will see he does not ever stealth up mid-combat. For this exact same reason. And he still uses Shadows Embrace. Because its still better than hidden thief. Is the fact that these are undeniable facts finally clear to you? Because I would like to not have to repeat myself just because you want to believe that thieves use in-combat stealth, despite it being undeniable fact that they do not.

First of all thieves have Dash also , which is free if they are going to escape .

Dash alone wont get you far. You need shortbow.

And secondary you should watch the Tournament stream , you might take some ideas about the tricks on stealthing in-game .Or meet me ingame

So youre gonna make me repeat myself. In the combat, they didnt use stealth mid-combat. Full stop. They did not use it. Well, other than the exact one exception I have already listed and wont repeat. I dont need "ideas to stealth mid-combat", because unlike you, I know that its bad, and that good thieves dont use it. Well, not that I need it, I dont play thief.

If in lower levels , the people dont know how to punish a person stealthing , while in higher tiers people using D/P combo to stealth in combat . So the premish that people avoiding stealth , its no true :)

That is a lie. In higher tiers people NEVER stealth mid-combat. Let me repeat myself so that it gets through to you finally. They. Never. Stealth. Mid. Combat. Again, just take a look at Sindrener. If you watch his videos and keep track, you will find that in the vast majority of games he plays, he stealths mid-combat exactly 0 times. Thats right, not at all. In rare games he stealths once. Maybe twice. In NO game whatsoever does he stealth mid-combat regularly. So, the premise that people avoid stealth is absolutely true, despite your insistence to disgregard the truth.

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darren.1064

darren.1064

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I can single handedly tell all of you that I just played my first game as a rev and it's as button mashing as it gets. Put up 8 kills with no problem on a losing team and had unlimited damage. It's skill floor and ceiling are definitely way lower than thieves so idk why people on this thread have been trying to compare the two. Thief is actually difficult to learn. Rev is definitely forgiving.

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Captain Kuro.8937

Captain Kuro.8937

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the
, for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)

It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.

The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleanceI beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources

They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.

If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .Even on Vallun video a while back

Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.

It behaves like Cloack And Dagger

If you cloak and Dagger when youre already stealthed you also get revealed.

Mug its on Deadly spec .And we are talking about meta builds

There is just redundant. Why would you want stealth on steal? You steal backstab when engaging. Youre not gonna steal for stealth mid-combat, and out of combat you have stealth anyway.

You cannot remove a clutch Burn , because they are overbearing conditions. So 1x condtion removal is worthless .

Hardly. Shadows Embrace is nice in that it only removes
damaging
conditions. So if they have burn cripple and so on, you remove the burn. Even 1 condi cleanse is quite valuable, especially on a class that generally lacks them.

I believe that Thief actually use stealth to benefit from it much more

Not really. If you try to stealth mid-combat, you just get hit for a ton more damage than you would remove from the 1 condi cleanse. Youre also not gonna be able to just stay in stealth and wait for another tick, you die before that. Its legitimately just for the healing skill.

Rather than wasting 9 resources on Heartseeker + Powder and then steal , you can instead simply Steal without a cost and gain stealth , also reduce the Shadowsteap from 50>40 sec and Blinding Powder 40>32 sec

Youre going to "waste" those 9 resources anyway, because you want to stack up Leeching Venoms, and you want to engage on them without them ever knowing you were there. Oh and since you use steal on the opening burst, that also means you wont be able to use it later. Reducing the CD of Shadowstep is nice, but not significant enough. You dont use Blinding Powder right now anyway.

Burns can be re-applied , so remove one is kinda worthless . If Thieves stealth more (which i believe they do) they benefit from it much more . The stealth from the healing spell lasts 2 sec (1s from PvP + Melds) , you will only benefit from 1 condtion removal from the start and not a second

They can be, but its still great. They stack the burst on you, and you negate it. And then you run away, so they cant just keep reapplying it. Thats why its great. Thieves do
NOT
stealth more. Because its actively suicidal and just about the only way a thief can get himself killed. It also doesnt benefit more at all. Youre not gonna survive waiting 3 seconds for the second condi removal. And yes, you only get the 1 condi removal at the start. Thats how the trait works.

Yeah you are going to waste 9 resources and stealth for 3 sec , or waste those 9 resources and use Hidden Thief for 6 sec stealth . Reggardles of what stealth method you choose the Leeching Venoms poison will still come up .

And in that case, you burn the steal before you can use it to engage. A complete waste. Both of a trait, and of steal. A terrible idea.

If you use the 20 sec heal that the trait does offer stealth in combat , is a defensive option that most thieves do . Its not suicidal , its called ''tactical get the hell away'' . And still Shadow Embrace is kinda worthless for a 2 sec stealth only . Maybe the majority of the stealth + streamers have a different tactics and use itmore than us ?

Stealth in combat is not a defensive option. Its suicidal. Here is what happens. You plop down a smoke field, try to heartseeker and whoops, your opponent decided to abuse the fact that youre stuck in 1.25 seconds worth of animation, threw some damage youre way, and youre suddenly downed. Why, that doesnt seem useful at all. Thats why you dont do it. Its why top tier streamers dont use it. And no, shadows embrace is still good for Concealing Restoration. Youre right, its not terribly much, but the alternatives are both
worse
. Merciful Ambush doesnt come into play often enough, and Hidden Thief is just not useful.

Rather than having 1 condition removal every 20 sec (on heal>stealth) . Its better to have :

I dont know why you think repeating the same wrong thing maakes it true. No, Hidden Thief is
much
worse. End of story.

But in the other hand if poeple use stealth a lot more , like Vallun it makes sense that they benefit from it more

He doesnt. Look at Vallun. Look at Sindrener. See how often they use in-combat stealth. Unless its to finish off a target (usually when theyre 3 or 4v1) the answer is
never
. And in that situation, shadows embrace isnt doing anything.

Concealing Restoration is more suicidal , because you must wait before the channel ends and then you stealth .

Completely, utterly 100% wrong. When you use channeled vigor, you regain health. You still might take damage, but youre not even locked in an animation, you can move. Its 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times less suicidal.

While doing Black Powder offer some Blind and the Heartseeker some mobility (just like Dash)

You dont get the blind unless you target an enemy then drop targetting, which is clunky. And the mobility doesnt help you because your opponent knows exactly where you will move. Neither of those will save you from the grenade barrage Im aiming at you that will down you instantly. Which is why
EVERY
good thief avoids in-combat stealth. Please, for future reference, dont talk about thief if you dont know thief.

No i am sorry , but you are kinda wrong here .

I am absolutely correct. You are the one who is wrong.

If the majority of the streamers + metabattle have that traits ,it mean that they stealth more and benefit from that trait . Otherwise they would take that Hidden Thief .

Wrong. Hidden Thief is worse. Even if you just use concealing restoration (Which yes, is what they do), it is so much worse. But if you dont believe me, just go ahead and watch Sindrener. He is using Shadows Embrace. See how often he goes for in-combat stealth (Or let me spoil you: Almost never).

They know more than you and me .You could look at the Vallun Video , where he stealth and use Dash to get away from danger . If you some problems with stealthing up , we can meet inside and give you some tips

They do. Thats why they
DONT
stealth mid-combat. They know its suicidal and the worst thing a thief can do by far. Watch
most recent games on sinds youtube channel. Pop Quiz: During the entire 15 minute match, how many times does he stealth mid combat? The answer is
once
. Against a prot holo that cant punish him. Didnt clear any condis doing it though. And still he runs shadows embrace. Why? Because its much better than hidden thief, even if you just use concealing restoration like the good thieves do. Why? Well I already explained.

I saw multiply thieves from the tournament and Vallun use stealth .

Out of combat stealth. Yes. In-combat stealth? No. Well, other than maybe the condi thieves using Shadow Refuge to immediately leave stealth and just proc shadow bolts on the stealth attack. That appears to be how it was used.

And Sind uses the Embrace trait vs heavy condition opponents , while the enemy waste aoes , he hides and uses the trait to cleanse conditions

No, he uses them against
all
opponents. He does not do what you describe
EVER
. Because that doesnt work. You do not stealth mid-combat (unless its to finish off an outnumbered enemy, maybe, and
maybe
if youre facing a low-damage bunker and wanna prepare to switch targets to someone a bit further way. But even in that case, it makes more sense to get out first, then stealth). If you stealth mid-combat, you die unless your opponent is playing a low-damage bunker. And even then you sometimes die. Thats why you dont use it.

I am hopping to see a Grenade Barrage Enginner on the Tournaments on July . Maybe we can see that spec to be used vs stealth Mesmer also

Why? Grenade Engineer isnt particularly good. Its just an example because I play it. Any class can punish thief for trying to stealth mid-combat. Thats why every single good thief doesnt use mid-combat stealth. And yet they use Shadows Embrace, because its still much better. It is that simple. Accept the fact, or be quiet.

Ehm ...other specs too exept the 2x French . The majority of the enemies are Bunkers and while you having the damage reduction from the Daredevil traits , they cannot huke you high enought

And they too didnt use it, other than
exactly
with shadow Refuge and dropping it
exactly
instantly just to get the stealth attack with the shadow projectile finishers. The damage reduction traits wont be active when you try to stealth up (you move out of range and the enemy wont be weak). Right now even bunkers can do a lot of damage, and far from everyone is playing bunkers. You will get nuked.

I thought for a sec that Grenade Engineer , was death incarnate with all these '''if you stealth , you will get nuked by it'' .In lower levels everything works and everything punish each other

The point is that
even
Grenade Engineer can nuke you when you try to stealth. Any build can. Its funny that you bring up lower levels, because its
ONLY
in lower levels that thieves use stealth mid-combat. Because they arent good, and their opponents arent good. In high level, you will almost never see a thief use stealth mid-combat. If they want to run, they shortbow 5. If they want to fight, they use shadow shot, heartseekr or swap to shortbow. But never, ever, under any circumstances, do they go for stealth. And still Shadows Embrace is run. Because its better.

There where other teams that they used D/P and use it to stealth . For example there was a team with 2 Thieves that made it to the top 8 and lost from the 1 French , that their job was to go far and take turns attacking/stealthing up to win matches vs Mesmers + other other Bunkers .

They use
out of combat
stealth. Yes, that is true. However, there Shadows Embrace doesnt matter. Youre out of combat. You didnt have any conditions. They did not use in-combat stealth at all.

At the final 6 , Cheese vs 55rank i believe you could see some stealth ingame action too . If you are near the target >hit> try to stealth up the damage reduction traits will be working fine

Out of combat stealth, yes. In combat stealth, no. And no, they wont, your heartseeker will move you too far away. Sorry.

I hope we can see the Grenade Enginner in the tournament , its sound preety fun for 1-shot aoes burst

It doesnt oneshot anything but the squishy thieves that already took damage from sticking in a fight. Again, you fixate on the wrong things. But let me just reiterate once more. Good thieves do not use in-combat stealth. If they are activaly fighting an enemy, under (almost) no circumstances will they ever stealth, because its suicidal. They will ONLY stealth out of combat. As a result, Shadows Embrace is ONLY used for concealing restoration, a single condi clear on your healing skill. And its still used over hidden thief, because its much better than hidden thief, even then.

Those 2 D/P thiefs took turns . If some1 was low on hp he would stealth up in combta , heal and then come back . The same tactic they used in mid in teamfights .

Im gonna assume that he did not stealth up in combat, but out of combat. A quick look over the game I assume youre describing confirms that assumption. They used out of combat stealth, not in-combat stealth.

Heartseeker is not effected by out of combat stealth or in combat stealth .It travels the same distance , just like Dash . Its ok if you have some questions about how things works

I know, youre missing the point. The point is that when you use in-combat stealth, youre locked into your animation. Your heartseeker will take you a set distance away in a set direction. The enemy will punish and down you. Hence why good thieves do not ever use in-combat stealth. Did you finally understand that? Yes? Good. Lets leave the fact that thief doesnt use in-combat stealth as that, as well as the fact that shadows embrace is used only for concealing restoration and is still better than hidden thief.

Could you post some pic with the burst of Barrage ? So i wont underestimate it on my que ?

Too much effort, cant be bothered.

I am sure 100% that that team with the those 2x Thieves that made it to the final 8 , they used Heartseeker+ Powder for stealth , when they where 50% hp . While the other maintain the pressure . Or like other thieves from other teams .

The only one I saw did not use it in-combat. When they wanted to get out, they did like any good thief does, and shortbow 5 out. If they tried to BP + Heartseeker for stealth when they were at 50%, they wouldve just died.

Not all classes punish you while you do the stealth combo , and the 90% of the majority are Bunkers . In lower tiers where everyone is wearing Berseker amulets , they might punish the thief for trying to stealth up . But the current meta is Bunker-Condition

Incorrect. All classes punish you when doing the stealth combo. Most arent bunkers. Condi isnt meta (hence why condi thief was such an upset). In lower tiers, people use stealth, because the thieves are bad and dont know its bad, and the enemies are bad and dont punish it. In high level, they do not ever use stealth mid-combat.

Hence they stealth up and use the Shadow Embrace trait

Incorrect. They do not stealth up, and shadows embrace is used exclusively for concealing restoration. As I have explained, both of these are undeniable facts. You can look at all of Sindreners games, you will see he does not ever stealth up mid-combat. For this exact same reason. And he still uses Shadows Embrace. Because its still better than hidden thief. Is the fact that these are undeniable facts finally clear to you? Because I would like to not have to repeat myself just because you want to believe that thieves use in-combat stealth, despite it being undeniable fact that they do not.

First of all thieves have Dash also , which is free if they are going to escape .

Dash alone wont get you far. You need shortbow.

And secondary you should watch the Tournament stream , you might take some ideas about the tricks on stealthing in-game .Or meet me ingame

So youre gonna make me repeat myself. In the combat, they didnt use stealth mid-combat. Full stop. They did not use it. Well, other than the exact one exception I have already listed and wont repeat. I dont need "ideas to stealth mid-combat", because unlike you, I know that its bad, and that good thieves dont use it. Well, not that I need it, I dont play thief.

If in lower levels , the people dont know how to punish a person stealthing , while in higher tiers people using D/P combo to stealth in combat . So the premish that people avoiding stealth , its no true :)

That is a lie. In higher tiers people
NEVER
stealth mid-combat. Let me repeat myself so that it gets through to you finally. They.
Never
. Stealth. Mid. Combat. Again, just take a look at Sindrener. If you watch his videos and keep track, you will find that in the vast majority of games he plays, he stealths mid-combat exactly
0
times. Thats right, not at all. In
rare
games he stealths once. Maybe twice. In
NO
game whatsoever does he stealth mid-combat regularly. So, the premise that people avoid stealth is absolutely true, despite your insistence to disgregard the truth.

450 yards , 0 cost , vs 600 yards half resources , well there is no contest on which to chooseIf you add them up , well you have more mobility that Vanilia i believe .

The thieves used ingame combat to survive , you should watch the Tournaments , rather than go in circles .Its ok , if you don't know some things , you don't to insist something that is not true . People are using stealth in high and low tiers . Its not underpowered beyond redemption as you are saying . You haven't simply don't know some high level tricks

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UNOwen.7132

UNOwen.7132

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Posted

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the
, for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)

It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.

The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleanceI beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources

They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.

If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .Even on Vallun video a while back

Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.

It behaves like Cloack And Dagger

If you cloak and Dagger when youre already stealthed you also get revealed.

Mug its on Deadly spec .And we are talking about meta builds

There is just redundant. Why would you want stealth on steal? You steal backstab when engaging. Youre not gonna steal for stealth mid-combat, and out of combat you have stealth anyway.

You cannot remove a clutch Burn , because they are overbearing conditions. So 1x condtion removal is worthless .

Hardly. Shadows Embrace is nice in that it only removes
damaging
conditions. So if they have burn cripple and so on, you remove the burn. Even 1 condi cleanse is quite valuable, especially on a class that generally lacks them.

I believe that Thief actually use stealth to benefit from it much more

Not really. If you try to stealth mid-combat, you just get hit for a ton more damage than you would remove from the 1 condi cleanse. Youre also not gonna be able to just stay in stealth and wait for another tick, you die before that. Its legitimately just for the healing skill.

Rather than wasting 9 resources on Heartseeker + Powder and then steal , you can instead simply Steal without a cost and gain stealth , also reduce the Shadowsteap from 50>40 sec and Blinding Powder 40>32 sec

Youre going to "waste" those 9 resources anyway, because you want to stack up Leeching Venoms, and you want to engage on them without them ever knowing you were there. Oh and since you use steal on the opening burst, that also means you wont be able to use it later. Reducing the CD of Shadowstep is nice, but not significant enough. You dont use Blinding Powder right now anyway.

Burns can be re-applied , so remove one is kinda worthless . If Thieves stealth more (which i believe they do) they benefit from it much more . The stealth from the healing spell lasts 2 sec (1s from PvP + Melds) , you will only benefit from 1 condtion removal from the start and not a second

They can be, but its still great. They stack the burst on you, and you negate it. And then you run away, so they cant just keep reapplying it. Thats why its great. Thieves do
NOT
stealth more. Because its actively suicidal and just about the only way a thief can get himself killed. It also doesnt benefit more at all. Youre not gonna survive waiting 3 seconds for the second condi removal. And yes, you only get the 1 condi removal at the start. Thats how the trait works.

Yeah you are going to waste 9 resources and stealth for 3 sec , or waste those 9 resources and use Hidden Thief for 6 sec stealth . Reggardles of what stealth method you choose the Leeching Venoms poison will still come up .

And in that case, you burn the steal before you can use it to engage. A complete waste. Both of a trait, and of steal. A terrible idea.

If you use the 20 sec heal that the trait does offer stealth in combat , is a defensive option that most thieves do . Its not suicidal , its called ''tactical get the hell away'' . And still Shadow Embrace is kinda worthless for a 2 sec stealth only . Maybe the majority of the stealth + streamers have a different tactics and use itmore than us ?

Stealth in combat is not a defensive option. Its suicidal. Here is what happens. You plop down a smoke field, try to heartseeker and whoops, your opponent decided to abuse the fact that youre stuck in 1.25 seconds worth of animation, threw some damage youre way, and youre suddenly downed. Why, that doesnt seem useful at all. Thats why you dont do it. Its why top tier streamers dont use it. And no, shadows embrace is still good for Concealing Restoration. Youre right, its not terribly much, but the alternatives are both
worse
. Merciful Ambush doesnt come into play often enough, and Hidden Thief is just not useful.

Rather than having 1 condition removal every 20 sec (on heal>stealth) . Its better to have :

I dont know why you think repeating the same wrong thing maakes it true. No, Hidden Thief is
much
worse. End of story.

But in the other hand if poeple use stealth a lot more , like Vallun it makes sense that they benefit from it more

He doesnt. Look at Vallun. Look at Sindrener. See how often they use in-combat stealth. Unless its to finish off a target (usually when theyre 3 or 4v1) the answer is
never
. And in that situation, shadows embrace isnt doing anything.

Concealing Restoration is more suicidal , because you must wait before the channel ends and then you stealth .

Completely, utterly 100% wrong. When you use channeled vigor, you regain health. You still might take damage, but youre not even locked in an animation, you can move. Its 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times less suicidal.

While doing Black Powder offer some Blind and the Heartseeker some mobility (just like Dash)

You dont get the blind unless you target an enemy then drop targetting, which is clunky. And the mobility doesnt help you because your opponent knows exactly where you will move. Neither of those will save you from the grenade barrage Im aiming at you that will down you instantly. Which is why
EVERY
good thief avoids in-combat stealth. Please, for future reference, dont talk about thief if you dont know thief.

No i am sorry , but you are kinda wrong here .

I am absolutely correct. You are the one who is wrong.

If the majority of the streamers + metabattle have that traits ,it mean that they stealth more and benefit from that trait . Otherwise they would take that Hidden Thief .

Wrong. Hidden Thief is worse. Even if you just use concealing restoration (Which yes, is what they do), it is so much worse. But if you dont believe me, just go ahead and watch Sindrener. He is using Shadows Embrace. See how often he goes for in-combat stealth (Or let me spoil you: Almost never).

They know more than you and me .You could look at the Vallun Video , where he stealth and use Dash to get away from danger . If you some problems with stealthing up , we can meet inside and give you some tips

They do. Thats why they
DONT
stealth mid-combat. They know its suicidal and the worst thing a thief can do by far. Watch
most recent games on sinds youtube channel. Pop Quiz: During the entire 15 minute match, how many times does he stealth mid combat? The answer is
once
. Against a prot holo that cant punish him. Didnt clear any condis doing it though. And still he runs shadows embrace. Why? Because its much better than hidden thief, even if you just use concealing restoration like the good thieves do. Why? Well I already explained.

I saw multiply thieves from the tournament and Vallun use stealth .

Out of combat stealth. Yes. In-combat stealth? No. Well, other than maybe the condi thieves using Shadow Refuge to immediately leave stealth and just proc shadow bolts on the stealth attack. That appears to be how it was used.

And Sind uses the Embrace trait vs heavy condition opponents , while the enemy waste aoes , he hides and uses the trait to cleanse conditions

No, he uses them against
all
opponents. He does not do what you describe
EVER
. Because that doesnt work. You do not stealth mid-combat (unless its to finish off an outnumbered enemy, maybe, and
maybe
if youre facing a low-damage bunker and wanna prepare to switch targets to someone a bit further way. But even in that case, it makes more sense to get out first, then stealth). If you stealth mid-combat, you die unless your opponent is playing a low-damage bunker. And even then you sometimes die. Thats why you dont use it.

I am hopping to see a Grenade Barrage Enginner on the Tournaments on July . Maybe we can see that spec to be used vs stealth Mesmer also

Why? Grenade Engineer isnt particularly good. Its just an example because I play it. Any class can punish thief for trying to stealth mid-combat. Thats why every single good thief doesnt use mid-combat stealth. And yet they use Shadows Embrace, because its still much better. It is that simple. Accept the fact, or be quiet.

Ehm ...other specs too exept the 2x French . The majority of the enemies are Bunkers and while you having the damage reduction from the Daredevil traits , they cannot huke you high enought

And they too didnt use it, other than
exactly
with shadow Refuge and dropping it
exactly
instantly just to get the stealth attack with the shadow projectile finishers. The damage reduction traits wont be active when you try to stealth up (you move out of range and the enemy wont be weak). Right now even bunkers can do a lot of damage, and far from everyone is playing bunkers. You will get nuked.

I thought for a sec that Grenade Engineer , was death incarnate with all these '''if you stealth , you will get nuked by it'' .In lower levels everything works and everything punish each other

The point is that
even
Grenade Engineer can nuke you when you try to stealth. Any build can. Its funny that you bring up lower levels, because its
ONLY
in lower levels that thieves use stealth mid-combat. Because they arent good, and their opponents arent good. In high level, you will almost never see a thief use stealth mid-combat. If they want to run, they shortbow 5. If they want to fight, they use shadow shot, heartseekr or swap to shortbow. But never, ever, under any circumstances, do they go for stealth. And still Shadows Embrace is run. Because its better.

There where other teams that they used D/P and use it to stealth . For example there was a team with 2 Thieves that made it to the top 8 and lost from the 1 French , that their job was to go far and take turns attacking/stealthing up to win matches vs Mesmers + other other Bunkers .

They use
out of combat
stealth. Yes, that is true. However, there Shadows Embrace doesnt matter. Youre out of combat. You didnt have any conditions. They did not use in-combat stealth at all.

At the final 6 , Cheese vs 55rank i believe you could see some stealth ingame action too . If you are near the target >hit> try to stealth up the damage reduction traits will be working fine

Out of combat stealth, yes. In combat stealth, no. And no, they wont, your heartseeker will move you too far away. Sorry.

I hope we can see the Grenade Enginner in the tournament , its sound preety fun for 1-shot aoes burst

It doesnt oneshot anything but the squishy thieves that already took damage from sticking in a fight. Again, you fixate on the wrong things. But let me just reiterate once more. Good thieves do not use in-combat stealth. If they are activaly fighting an enemy, under (almost) no circumstances will they ever stealth, because its suicidal. They will ONLY stealth out of combat. As a result, Shadows Embrace is ONLY used for concealing restoration, a single condi clear on your healing skill. And its still used over hidden thief, because its much better than hidden thief, even then.

Those 2 D/P thiefs took turns . If some1 was low on hp he would stealth up in combta , heal and then come back . The same tactic they used in mid in teamfights .

Im gonna assume that he did not stealth up in combat, but out of combat. A quick look over the game I assume youre describing confirms that assumption. They used out of combat stealth, not in-combat stealth.

Heartseeker is not effected by out of combat stealth or in combat stealth .It travels the same distance , just like Dash . Its ok if you have some questions about how things works

I know, youre missing the point. The point is that when you use in-combat stealth, youre locked into your animation. Your heartseeker will take you a set distance away in a set direction. The enemy will punish and down you. Hence why good thieves do not ever use in-combat stealth. Did you finally understand that? Yes? Good. Lets leave the fact that thief doesnt use in-combat stealth as that, as well as the fact that shadows embrace is used only for concealing restoration and is still better than hidden thief.

Could you post some pic with the burst of Barrage ? So i wont underestimate it on my que ?

Too much effort, cant be bothered.

I am sure 100% that that team with the those 2x Thieves that made it to the final 8 , they used Heartseeker+ Powder for stealth , when they where 50% hp . While the other maintain the pressure . Or like other thieves from other teams .

The only one I saw did not use it in-combat. When they wanted to get out, they did like any good thief does, and shortbow 5 out. If they tried to BP + Heartseeker for stealth when they were at 50%, they wouldve just died.

Not all classes punish you while you do the stealth combo , and the 90% of the majority are Bunkers . In lower tiers where everyone is wearing Berseker amulets , they might punish the thief for trying to stealth up . But the current meta is Bunker-Condition

Incorrect. All classes punish you when doing the stealth combo. Most arent bunkers. Condi isnt meta (hence why condi thief was such an upset). In lower tiers, people use stealth, because the thieves are bad and dont know its bad, and the enemies are bad and dont punish it. In high level, they do not ever use stealth mid-combat.

Hence they stealth up and use the Shadow Embrace trait

Incorrect. They do not stealth up, and shadows embrace is used exclusively for concealing restoration. As I have explained, both of these are undeniable facts. You can look at all of Sindreners games, you will see he does not ever stealth up mid-combat. For this exact same reason. And he still uses Shadows Embrace. Because its still better than hidden thief. Is the fact that these are undeniable facts finally clear to you? Because I would like to not have to repeat myself just because you want to believe that thieves use in-combat stealth, despite it being undeniable fact that they do not.

First of all thieves have Dash also , which is free if they are going to escape .

Dash alone wont get you far. You need shortbow.

And secondary you should watch the Tournament stream , you might take some ideas about the tricks on stealthing in-game .Or meet me ingame

So youre gonna make me repeat myself. In the combat, they didnt use stealth mid-combat. Full stop. They did not use it. Well, other than the exact one exception I have already listed and wont repeat. I dont need "ideas to stealth mid-combat", because unlike you, I know that its bad, and that good thieves dont use it. Well, not that I need it, I dont play thief.

If in lower levels , the people dont know how to punish a person stealthing , while in higher tiers people using D/P combo to stealth in combat . So the premish that people avoiding stealth , its no true :)

That is a lie. In higher tiers people
NEVER
stealth mid-combat. Let me repeat myself so that it gets through to you finally. They.
Never
. Stealth. Mid. Combat. Again, just take a look at Sindrener. If you watch his videos and keep track, you will find that in the vast majority of games he plays, he stealths mid-combat exactly
0
times. Thats right, not at all. In
rare
games he stealths once. Maybe twice. In
NO
game whatsoever does he stealth mid-combat regularly. So, the premise that people avoid stealth is absolutely true, despite your insistence to disgregard the truth.

450 yards , 0 cost , vs 600 yards half resources , well there is no contest on which to chooseIf you add them up , well you have more mobility that Vanilia i believe .

Shortbow is 900 units, not 600. It also is much faster than Dash. There is indeed no contest on which to choose, the answer is Shortbow 5, always.

The thieves used ingame combat to survive , you should watch the Tournaments , rather than go in circles .

I did watch it. They didnt. They never used in-combat stealth to survive, because if would achieve the exact opposite. It would ensure their death.

Its ok , if you don't know some things , you don't to insist something that is not true . People are using stealth in high and low tiers . Its not underpowered beyond redemption as you are saying . You haven't simply don't know some high level tricks

It is ok if I dont know somethings. This is not one of them. I know it. You clearly do not, yet try to talk as if you have the faintest clue. People do not use in-combat stealth in high tiers (they do use out of combat stealth). Full stop. This is undeniable fact. You can deny this if you want, but know that it doesnt make the truth less true. It just makes you no different from a flat earther. So if you deny it once more despite the fact that its true, I will assume you indeed are one, and disregard you. It is underpowered, hence why its not used.

But in the vain hope that this will finally get through to you, answer me this. If in-combat stealth is so great. If its supposedly used in higher tiers. How comes Sindrener, the best thief in the game (not that there is much competition nowadays) NEVER uses it. Unless you can answer that question you need to accept that the premise, and your belief that stealth is good, is wrong. Oh and to save you the trouble, you cant answer it. The premise and your belief are just wrong.

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Captain Kuro.8937

Captain Kuro.8937

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Posted

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the
, for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)

It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.

The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleanceI beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources

They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.

If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .Even on Vallun video a while back

Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.

It behaves like Cloack And Dagger

If you cloak and Dagger when youre already stealthed you also get revealed.

Mug its on Deadly spec .And we are talking about meta builds

There is just redundant. Why would you want stealth on steal? You steal backstab when engaging. Youre not gonna steal for stealth mid-combat, and out of combat you have stealth anyway.

You cannot remove a clutch Burn , because they are overbearing conditions. So 1x condtion removal is worthless .

Hardly. Shadows Embrace is nice in that it only removes
damaging
conditions. So if they have burn cripple and so on, you remove the burn. Even 1 condi cleanse is quite valuable, especially on a class that generally lacks them.

I believe that Thief actually use stealth to benefit from it much more

Not really. If you try to stealth mid-combat, you just get hit for a ton more damage than you would remove from the 1 condi cleanse. Youre also not gonna be able to just stay in stealth and wait for another tick, you die before that. Its legitimately just for the healing skill.

Rather than wasting 9 resources on Heartseeker + Powder and then steal , you can instead simply Steal without a cost and gain stealth , also reduce the Shadowsteap from 50>40 sec and Blinding Powder 40>32 sec

Youre going to "waste" those 9 resources anyway, because you want to stack up Leeching Venoms, and you want to engage on them without them ever knowing you were there. Oh and since you use steal on the opening burst, that also means you wont be able to use it later. Reducing the CD of Shadowstep is nice, but not significant enough. You dont use Blinding Powder right now anyway.

Burns can be re-applied , so remove one is kinda worthless . If Thieves stealth more (which i believe they do) they benefit from it much more . The stealth from the healing spell lasts 2 sec (1s from PvP + Melds) , you will only benefit from 1 condtion removal from the start and not a second

They can be, but its still great. They stack the burst on you, and you negate it. And then you run away, so they cant just keep reapplying it. Thats why its great. Thieves do
NOT
stealth more. Because its actively suicidal and just about the only way a thief can get himself killed. It also doesnt benefit more at all. Youre not gonna survive waiting 3 seconds for the second condi removal. And yes, you only get the 1 condi removal at the start. Thats how the trait works.

Yeah you are going to waste 9 resources and stealth for 3 sec , or waste those 9 resources and use Hidden Thief for 6 sec stealth . Reggardles of what stealth method you choose the Leeching Venoms poison will still come up .

And in that case, you burn the steal before you can use it to engage. A complete waste. Both of a trait, and of steal. A terrible idea.

If you use the 20 sec heal that the trait does offer stealth in combat , is a defensive option that most thieves do . Its not suicidal , its called ''tactical get the hell away'' . And still Shadow Embrace is kinda worthless for a 2 sec stealth only . Maybe the majority of the stealth + streamers have a different tactics and use itmore than us ?

Stealth in combat is not a defensive option. Its suicidal. Here is what happens. You plop down a smoke field, try to heartseeker and whoops, your opponent decided to abuse the fact that youre stuck in 1.25 seconds worth of animation, threw some damage youre way, and youre suddenly downed. Why, that doesnt seem useful at all. Thats why you dont do it. Its why top tier streamers dont use it. And no, shadows embrace is still good for Concealing Restoration. Youre right, its not terribly much, but the alternatives are both
worse
. Merciful Ambush doesnt come into play often enough, and Hidden Thief is just not useful.

Rather than having 1 condition removal every 20 sec (on heal>stealth) . Its better to have :

I dont know why you think repeating the same wrong thing maakes it true. No, Hidden Thief is
much
worse. End of story.

But in the other hand if poeple use stealth a lot more , like Vallun it makes sense that they benefit from it more

He doesnt. Look at Vallun. Look at Sindrener. See how often they use in-combat stealth. Unless its to finish off a target (usually when theyre 3 or 4v1) the answer is
never
. And in that situation, shadows embrace isnt doing anything.

Concealing Restoration is more suicidal , because you must wait before the channel ends and then you stealth .

Completely, utterly 100% wrong. When you use channeled vigor, you regain health. You still might take damage, but youre not even locked in an animation, you can move. Its 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times less suicidal.

While doing Black Powder offer some Blind and the Heartseeker some mobility (just like Dash)

You dont get the blind unless you target an enemy then drop targetting, which is clunky. And the mobility doesnt help you because your opponent knows exactly where you will move. Neither of those will save you from the grenade barrage Im aiming at you that will down you instantly. Which is why
EVERY
good thief avoids in-combat stealth. Please, for future reference, dont talk about thief if you dont know thief.

No i am sorry , but you are kinda wrong here .

I am absolutely correct. You are the one who is wrong.

If the majority of the streamers + metabattle have that traits ,it mean that they stealth more and benefit from that trait . Otherwise they would take that Hidden Thief .

Wrong. Hidden Thief is worse. Even if you just use concealing restoration (Which yes, is what they do), it is so much worse. But if you dont believe me, just go ahead and watch Sindrener. He is using Shadows Embrace. See how often he goes for in-combat stealth (Or let me spoil you: Almost never).

They know more than you and me .You could look at the Vallun Video , where he stealth and use Dash to get away from danger . If you some problems with stealthing up , we can meet inside and give you some tips

They do. Thats why they
DONT
stealth mid-combat. They know its suicidal and the worst thing a thief can do by far. Watch
most recent games on sinds youtube channel. Pop Quiz: During the entire 15 minute match, how many times does he stealth mid combat? The answer is
once
. Against a prot holo that cant punish him. Didnt clear any condis doing it though. And still he runs shadows embrace. Why? Because its much better than hidden thief, even if you just use concealing restoration like the good thieves do. Why? Well I already explained.

I saw multiply thieves from the tournament and Vallun use stealth .

Out of combat stealth. Yes. In-combat stealth? No. Well, other than maybe the condi thieves using Shadow Refuge to immediately leave stealth and just proc shadow bolts on the stealth attack. That appears to be how it was used.

And Sind uses the Embrace trait vs heavy condition opponents , while the enemy waste aoes , he hides and uses the trait to cleanse conditions

No, he uses them against
all
opponents. He does not do what you describe
EVER
. Because that doesnt work. You do not stealth mid-combat (unless its to finish off an outnumbered enemy, maybe, and
maybe
if youre facing a low-damage bunker and wanna prepare to switch targets to someone a bit further way. But even in that case, it makes more sense to get out first, then stealth). If you stealth mid-combat, you die unless your opponent is playing a low-damage bunker. And even then you sometimes die. Thats why you dont use it.

I am hopping to see a Grenade Barrage Enginner on the Tournaments on July . Maybe we can see that spec to be used vs stealth Mesmer also

Why? Grenade Engineer isnt particularly good. Its just an example because I play it. Any class can punish thief for trying to stealth mid-combat. Thats why every single good thief doesnt use mid-combat stealth. And yet they use Shadows Embrace, because its still much better. It is that simple. Accept the fact, or be quiet.

Ehm ...other specs too exept the 2x French . The majority of the enemies are Bunkers and while you having the damage reduction from the Daredevil traits , they cannot huke you high enought

And they too didnt use it, other than
exactly
with shadow Refuge and dropping it
exactly
instantly just to get the stealth attack with the shadow projectile finishers. The damage reduction traits wont be active when you try to stealth up (you move out of range and the enemy wont be weak). Right now even bunkers can do a lot of damage, and far from everyone is playing bunkers. You will get nuked.

I thought for a sec that Grenade Engineer , was death incarnate with all these '''if you stealth , you will get nuked by it'' .In lower levels everything works and everything punish each other

The point is that
even
Grenade Engineer can nuke you when you try to stealth. Any build can. Its funny that you bring up lower levels, because its
ONLY
in lower levels that thieves use stealth mid-combat. Because they arent good, and their opponents arent good. In high level, you will almost never see a thief use stealth mid-combat. If they want to run, they shortbow 5. If they want to fight, they use shadow shot, heartseekr or swap to shortbow. But never, ever, under any circumstances, do they go for stealth. And still Shadows Embrace is run. Because its better.

There where other teams that they used D/P and use it to stealth . For example there was a team with 2 Thieves that made it to the top 8 and lost from the 1 French , that their job was to go far and take turns attacking/stealthing up to win matches vs Mesmers + other other Bunkers .

They use
out of combat
stealth. Yes, that is true. However, there Shadows Embrace doesnt matter. Youre out of combat. You didnt have any conditions. They did not use in-combat stealth at all.

At the final 6 , Cheese vs 55rank i believe you could see some stealth ingame action too . If you are near the target >hit> try to stealth up the damage reduction traits will be working fine

Out of combat stealth, yes. In combat stealth, no. And no, they wont, your heartseeker will move you too far away. Sorry.

I hope we can see the Grenade Enginner in the tournament , its sound preety fun for 1-shot aoes burst

It doesnt oneshot anything but the squishy thieves that already took damage from sticking in a fight. Again, you fixate on the wrong things. But let me just reiterate once more. Good thieves do not use in-combat stealth. If they are activaly fighting an enemy, under (almost) no circumstances will they ever stealth, because its suicidal. They will ONLY stealth out of combat. As a result, Shadows Embrace is ONLY used for concealing restoration, a single condi clear on your healing skill. And its still used over hidden thief, because its much better than hidden thief, even then.

Those 2 D/P thiefs took turns . If some1 was low on hp he would stealth up in combta , heal and then come back . The same tactic they used in mid in teamfights .

Im gonna assume that he did not stealth up in combat, but out of combat. A quick look over the game I assume youre describing confirms that assumption. They used out of combat stealth, not in-combat stealth.

Heartseeker is not effected by out of combat stealth or in combat stealth .It travels the same distance , just like Dash . Its ok if you have some questions about how things works

I know, youre missing the point. The point is that when you use in-combat stealth, youre locked into your animation. Your heartseeker will take you a set distance away in a set direction. The enemy will punish and down you. Hence why good thieves do not ever use in-combat stealth. Did you finally understand that? Yes? Good. Lets leave the fact that thief doesnt use in-combat stealth as that, as well as the fact that shadows embrace is used only for concealing restoration and is still better than hidden thief.

Could you post some pic with the burst of Barrage ? So i wont underestimate it on my que ?

Too much effort, cant be bothered.

I am sure 100% that that team with the those 2x Thieves that made it to the final 8 , they used Heartseeker+ Powder for stealth , when they where 50% hp . While the other maintain the pressure . Or like other thieves from other teams .

The only one I saw did not use it in-combat. When they wanted to get out, they did like any good thief does, and shortbow 5 out. If they tried to BP + Heartseeker for stealth when they were at 50%, they wouldve just died.

Not all classes punish you while you do the stealth combo , and the 90% of the majority are Bunkers . In lower tiers where everyone is wearing Berseker amulets , they might punish the thief for trying to stealth up . But the current meta is Bunker-Condition

Incorrect. All classes punish you when doing the stealth combo. Most arent bunkers. Condi isnt meta (hence why condi thief was such an upset). In lower tiers, people use stealth, because the thieves are bad and dont know its bad, and the enemies are bad and dont punish it. In high level, they do not ever use stealth mid-combat.

Hence they stealth up and use the Shadow Embrace trait

Incorrect. They do not stealth up, and shadows embrace is used exclusively for concealing restoration. As I have explained, both of these are undeniable facts. You can look at all of Sindreners games, you will see he does not ever stealth up mid-combat. For this exact same reason. And he still uses Shadows Embrace. Because its still better than hidden thief. Is the fact that these are undeniable facts finally clear to you? Because I would like to not have to repeat myself just because you want to believe that thieves use in-combat stealth, despite it being undeniable fact that they do not.

First of all thieves have Dash also , which is free if they are going to escape .

Dash alone wont get you far. You need shortbow.

And secondary you should watch the Tournament stream , you might take some ideas about the tricks on stealthing in-game .Or meet me ingame

So youre gonna make me repeat myself. In the combat, they didnt use stealth mid-combat. Full stop. They did not use it. Well, other than the exact one exception I have already listed and wont repeat. I dont need "ideas to stealth mid-combat", because unlike you, I know that its bad, and that good thieves dont use it. Well, not that I need it, I dont play thief.

If in lower levels , the people dont know how to punish a person stealthing , while in higher tiers people using D/P combo to stealth in combat . So the premish that people avoiding stealth , its no true :)

That is a lie. In higher tiers people
NEVER
stealth mid-combat. Let me repeat myself so that it gets through to you finally. They.
Never
. Stealth. Mid. Combat. Again, just take a look at Sindrener. If you watch his videos and keep track, you will find that in the vast majority of games he plays, he stealths mid-combat exactly
0
times. Thats right, not at all. In
rare
games he stealths once. Maybe twice. In
NO
game whatsoever does he stealth mid-combat regularly. So, the premise that people avoid stealth is absolutely true, despite your insistence to disgregard the truth.

450 yards , 0 cost , vs 600 yards half resources , well there is no contest on which to chooseIf you add them up , well you have more mobility that Vanilia i believe .

Shortbow is 900 units, not 600. It also is much faster than Dash. There is indeed no contest on which to choose, the answer is Shortbow 5,
always
.

The thieves used ingame combat to survive , you should watch the Tournaments , rather than go in circles .

I did watch it. They didnt. They never used in-combat stealth to survive, because if would achieve the exact opposite. It would ensure their death.

Its ok , if you don't know some things , you don't to insist something that is not true . People are using stealth in high and low tiers . Its not underpowered beyond redemption as you are saying . You haven't simply don't know some high level tricks

It is ok if I dont know somethings. This is not one of them. I know it. You clearly do not, yet try to talk as if you have the faintest clue. People do not use in-combat stealth in high tiers (they do use out of combat stealth). Full stop. This is undeniable fact. You can deny this if you want, but know that it doesnt make the truth less true. It just makes you no different from a flat earther. So if you deny it once more despite the fact that its true, I will assume you indeed are one, and disregard you. It is underpowered, hence why its not used.

But in the vain hope that this will finally get through to you, answer me this. If in-combat stealth is so great. If its supposedly used in higher tiers. How comes Sindrener, the best thief in the game (not that there is much competition nowadays)
NEVER
uses it. Unless you can answer that question you need to accept that the premise, and your belief that stealth is good, is wrong. Oh and to save you the trouble, you cant answer it. The premise and your belief are just wrong.

I am sorry again , but you are wrong . You should give it a chance and see the Tournament .People are actually using in combat stealth with the D/P combo to survive .The majority of the classes and in the Meta are Bunkers , they don't have the firepower to 1-shot you in stealth .Heh .. even you had said that in lower tier people don't know how to counter it . Give it a try , just watch the tournament or some youtube video about tricks of stealth

Everyone started as a noob . We improved over time

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UNOwen.7132

UNOwen.7132

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@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the
, for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)

It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.

The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleanceI beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources

They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.

If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .Even on Vallun video a while back

Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.

It behaves like Cloack And Dagger

If you cloak and Dagger when youre already stealthed you also get revealed.

Mug its on Deadly spec .And we are talking about meta builds

There is just redundant. Why would you want stealth on steal? You steal backstab when engaging. Youre not gonna steal for stealth mid-combat, and out of combat you have stealth anyway.

You cannot remove a clutch Burn , because they are overbearing conditions. So 1x condtion removal is worthless .

Hardly. Shadows Embrace is nice in that it only removes
damaging
conditions. So if they have burn cripple and so on, you remove the burn. Even 1 condi cleanse is quite valuable, especially on a class that generally lacks them.

I believe that Thief actually use stealth to benefit from it much more

Not really. If you try to stealth mid-combat, you just get hit for a ton more damage than you would remove from the 1 condi cleanse. Youre also not gonna be able to just stay in stealth and wait for another tick, you die before that. Its legitimately just for the healing skill.

Rather than wasting 9 resources on Heartseeker + Powder and then steal , you can instead simply Steal without a cost and gain stealth , also reduce the Shadowsteap from 50>40 sec and Blinding Powder 40>32 sec

Youre going to "waste" those 9 resources anyway, because you want to stack up Leeching Venoms, and you want to engage on them without them ever knowing you were there. Oh and since you use steal on the opening burst, that also means you wont be able to use it later. Reducing the CD of Shadowstep is nice, but not significant enough. You dont use Blinding Powder right now anyway.

Burns can be re-applied , so remove one is kinda worthless . If Thieves stealth more (which i believe they do) they benefit from it much more . The stealth from the healing spell lasts 2 sec (1s from PvP + Melds) , you will only benefit from 1 condtion removal from the start and not a second

They can be, but its still great. They stack the burst on you, and you negate it. And then you run away, so they cant just keep reapplying it. Thats why its great. Thieves do
NOT
stealth more. Because its actively suicidal and just about the only way a thief can get himself killed. It also doesnt benefit more at all. Youre not gonna survive waiting 3 seconds for the second condi removal. And yes, you only get the 1 condi removal at the start. Thats how the trait works.

Yeah you are going to waste 9 resources and stealth for 3 sec , or waste those 9 resources and use Hidden Thief for 6 sec stealth . Reggardles of what stealth method you choose the Leeching Venoms poison will still come up .

And in that case, you burn the steal before you can use it to engage. A complete waste. Both of a trait, and of steal. A terrible idea.

If you use the 20 sec heal that the trait does offer stealth in combat , is a defensive option that most thieves do . Its not suicidal , its called ''tactical get the hell away'' . And still Shadow Embrace is kinda worthless for a 2 sec stealth only . Maybe the majority of the stealth + streamers have a different tactics and use itmore than us ?

Stealth in combat is not a defensive option. Its suicidal. Here is what happens. You plop down a smoke field, try to heartseeker and whoops, your opponent decided to abuse the fact that youre stuck in 1.25 seconds worth of animation, threw some damage youre way, and youre suddenly downed. Why, that doesnt seem useful at all. Thats why you dont do it. Its why top tier streamers dont use it. And no, shadows embrace is still good for Concealing Restoration. Youre right, its not terribly much, but the alternatives are both
worse
. Merciful Ambush doesnt come into play often enough, and Hidden Thief is just not useful.

Rather than having 1 condition removal every 20 sec (on heal>stealth) . Its better to have :

I dont know why you think repeating the same wrong thing maakes it true. No, Hidden Thief is
much
worse. End of story.

But in the other hand if poeple use stealth a lot more , like Vallun it makes sense that they benefit from it more

He doesnt. Look at Vallun. Look at Sindrener. See how often they use in-combat stealth. Unless its to finish off a target (usually when theyre 3 or 4v1) the answer is
never
. And in that situation, shadows embrace isnt doing anything.

Concealing Restoration is more suicidal , because you must wait before the channel ends and then you stealth .

Completely, utterly 100% wrong. When you use channeled vigor, you regain health. You still might take damage, but youre not even locked in an animation, you can move. Its 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times less suicidal.

While doing Black Powder offer some Blind and the Heartseeker some mobility (just like Dash)

You dont get the blind unless you target an enemy then drop targetting, which is clunky. And the mobility doesnt help you because your opponent knows exactly where you will move. Neither of those will save you from the grenade barrage Im aiming at you that will down you instantly. Which is why
EVERY
good thief avoids in-combat stealth. Please, for future reference, dont talk about thief if you dont know thief.

No i am sorry , but you are kinda wrong here .

I am absolutely correct. You are the one who is wrong.

If the majority of the streamers + metabattle have that traits ,it mean that they stealth more and benefit from that trait . Otherwise they would take that Hidden Thief .

Wrong. Hidden Thief is worse. Even if you just use concealing restoration (Which yes, is what they do), it is so much worse. But if you dont believe me, just go ahead and watch Sindrener. He is using Shadows Embrace. See how often he goes for in-combat stealth (Or let me spoil you: Almost never).

They know more than you and me .You could look at the Vallun Video , where he stealth and use Dash to get away from danger . If you some problems with stealthing up , we can meet inside and give you some tips

They do. Thats why they
DONT
stealth mid-combat. They know its suicidal and the worst thing a thief can do by far. Watch
most recent games on sinds youtube channel. Pop Quiz: During the entire 15 minute match, how many times does he stealth mid combat? The answer is
once
. Against a prot holo that cant punish him. Didnt clear any condis doing it though. And still he runs shadows embrace. Why? Because its much better than hidden thief, even if you just use concealing restoration like the good thieves do. Why? Well I already explained.

I saw multiply thieves from the tournament and Vallun use stealth .

Out of combat stealth. Yes. In-combat stealth? No. Well, other than maybe the condi thieves using Shadow Refuge to immediately leave stealth and just proc shadow bolts on the stealth attack. That appears to be how it was used.

And Sind uses the Embrace trait vs heavy condition opponents , while the enemy waste aoes , he hides and uses the trait to cleanse conditions

No, he uses them against
all
opponents. He does not do what you describe
EVER
. Because that doesnt work. You do not stealth mid-combat (unless its to finish off an outnumbered enemy, maybe, and
maybe
if youre facing a low-damage bunker and wanna prepare to switch targets to someone a bit further way. But even in that case, it makes more sense to get out first, then stealth). If you stealth mid-combat, you die unless your opponent is playing a low-damage bunker. And even then you sometimes die. Thats why you dont use it.

I am hopping to see a Grenade Barrage Enginner on the Tournaments on July . Maybe we can see that spec to be used vs stealth Mesmer also

Why? Grenade Engineer isnt particularly good. Its just an example because I play it. Any class can punish thief for trying to stealth mid-combat. Thats why every single good thief doesnt use mid-combat stealth. And yet they use Shadows Embrace, because its still much better. It is that simple. Accept the fact, or be quiet.

Ehm ...other specs too exept the 2x French . The majority of the enemies are Bunkers and while you having the damage reduction from the Daredevil traits , they cannot huke you high enought

And they too didnt use it, other than
exactly
with shadow Refuge and dropping it
exactly
instantly just to get the stealth attack with the shadow projectile finishers. The damage reduction traits wont be active when you try to stealth up (you move out of range and the enemy wont be weak). Right now even bunkers can do a lot of damage, and far from everyone is playing bunkers. You will get nuked.

I thought for a sec that Grenade Engineer , was death incarnate with all these '''if you stealth , you will get nuked by it'' .In lower levels everything works and everything punish each other

The point is that
even
Grenade Engineer can nuke you when you try to stealth. Any build can. Its funny that you bring up lower levels, because its
ONLY
in lower levels that thieves use stealth mid-combat. Because they arent good, and their opponents arent good. In high level, you will almost never see a thief use stealth mid-combat. If they want to run, they shortbow 5. If they want to fight, they use shadow shot, heartseekr or swap to shortbow. But never, ever, under any circumstances, do they go for stealth. And still Shadows Embrace is run. Because its better.

There where other teams that they used D/P and use it to stealth . For example there was a team with 2 Thieves that made it to the top 8 and lost from the 1 French , that their job was to go far and take turns attacking/stealthing up to win matches vs Mesmers + other other Bunkers .

They use
out of combat
stealth. Yes, that is true. However, there Shadows Embrace doesnt matter. Youre out of combat. You didnt have any conditions. They did not use in-combat stealth at all.

At the final 6 , Cheese vs 55rank i believe you could see some stealth ingame action too . If you are near the target >hit> try to stealth up the damage reduction traits will be working fine

Out of combat stealth, yes. In combat stealth, no. And no, they wont, your heartseeker will move you too far away. Sorry.

I hope we can see the Grenade Enginner in the tournament , its sound preety fun for 1-shot aoes burst

It doesnt oneshot anything but the squishy thieves that already took damage from sticking in a fight. Again, you fixate on the wrong things. But let me just reiterate once more. Good thieves do not use in-combat stealth. If they are activaly fighting an enemy, under (almost) no circumstances will they ever stealth, because its suicidal. They will ONLY stealth out of combat. As a result, Shadows Embrace is ONLY used for concealing restoration, a single condi clear on your healing skill. And its still used over hidden thief, because its much better than hidden thief, even then.

Those 2 D/P thiefs took turns . If some1 was low on hp he would stealth up in combta , heal and then come back . The same tactic they used in mid in teamfights .

Im gonna assume that he did not stealth up in combat, but out of combat. A quick look over the game I assume youre describing confirms that assumption. They used out of combat stealth, not in-combat stealth.

Heartseeker is not effected by out of combat stealth or in combat stealth .It travels the same distance , just like Dash . Its ok if you have some questions about how things works

I know, youre missing the point. The point is that when you use in-combat stealth, youre locked into your animation. Your heartseeker will take you a set distance away in a set direction. The enemy will punish and down you. Hence why good thieves do not ever use in-combat stealth. Did you finally understand that? Yes? Good. Lets leave the fact that thief doesnt use in-combat stealth as that, as well as the fact that shadows embrace is used only for concealing restoration and is still better than hidden thief.

Could you post some pic with the burst of Barrage ? So i wont underestimate it on my que ?

Too much effort, cant be bothered.

I am sure 100% that that team with the those 2x Thieves that made it to the final 8 , they used Heartseeker+ Powder for stealth , when they where 50% hp . While the other maintain the pressure . Or like other thieves from other teams .

The only one I saw did not use it in-combat. When they wanted to get out, they did like any good thief does, and shortbow 5 out. If they tried to BP + Heartseeker for stealth when they were at 50%, they wouldve just died.

Not all classes punish you while you do the stealth combo , and the 90% of the majority are Bunkers . In lower tiers where everyone is wearing Berseker amulets , they might punish the thief for trying to stealth up . But the current meta is Bunker-Condition

Incorrect. All classes punish you when doing the stealth combo. Most arent bunkers. Condi isnt meta (hence why condi thief was such an upset). In lower tiers, people use stealth, because the thieves are bad and dont know its bad, and the enemies are bad and dont punish it. In high level, they do not ever use stealth mid-combat.

Hence they stealth up and use the Shadow Embrace trait

Incorrect. They do not stealth up, and shadows embrace is used exclusively for concealing restoration. As I have explained, both of these are undeniable facts. You can look at all of Sindreners games, you will see he does not ever stealth up mid-combat. For this exact same reason. And he still uses Shadows Embrace. Because its still better than hidden thief. Is the fact that these are undeniable facts finally clear to you? Because I would like to not have to repeat myself just because you want to believe that thieves use in-combat stealth, despite it being undeniable fact that they do not.

First of all thieves have Dash also , which is free if they are going to escape .

Dash alone wont get you far. You need shortbow.

And secondary you should watch the Tournament stream , you might take some ideas about the tricks on stealthing in-game .Or meet me ingame

So youre gonna make me repeat myself. In the combat, they didnt use stealth mid-combat. Full stop. They did not use it. Well, other than the exact one exception I have already listed and wont repeat. I dont need "ideas to stealth mid-combat", because unlike you, I know that its bad, and that good thieves dont use it. Well, not that I need it, I dont play thief.

If in lower levels , the people dont know how to punish a person stealthing , while in higher tiers people using D/P combo to stealth in combat . So the premish that people avoiding stealth , its no true :)

That is a lie. In higher tiers people
NEVER
stealth mid-combat. Let me repeat myself so that it gets through to you finally. They.
Never
. Stealth. Mid. Combat. Again, just take a look at Sindrener. If you watch his videos and keep track, you will find that in the vast majority of games he plays, he stealths mid-combat exactly
0
times. Thats right, not at all. In
rare
games he stealths once. Maybe twice. In
NO
game whatsoever does he stealth mid-combat regularly. So, the premise that people avoid stealth is absolutely true, despite your insistence to disgregard the truth.

450 yards , 0 cost , vs 600 yards half resources , well there is no contest on which to chooseIf you add them up , well you have more mobility that Vanilia i believe .

Shortbow is 900 units, not 600. It also is much faster than Dash. There is indeed no contest on which to choose, the answer is Shortbow 5,
always
.

The thieves used ingame combat to survive , you should watch the Tournaments , rather than go in circles .

I did watch it. They didnt. They never used in-combat stealth to survive, because if would achieve the exact opposite. It would ensure their death.

Its ok , if you don't know some things , you don't to insist something that is not true . People are using stealth in high and low tiers . Its not underpowered beyond redemption as you are saying . You haven't simply don't know some high level tricks

It is ok if I dont know somethings. This is not one of them. I know it. You clearly do not, yet try to talk as if you have the faintest clue. People do not use in-combat stealth in high tiers (they do use out of combat stealth). Full stop. This is undeniable fact. You can deny this if you want, but know that it doesnt make the truth less true. It just makes you no different from a flat earther. So if you deny it once more despite the fact that its true, I will assume you indeed are one, and disregard you. It is underpowered, hence why its not used.

But in the vain hope that this will finally get through to you, answer me this. If in-combat stealth is so great. If its supposedly used in higher tiers. How comes Sindrener, the best thief in the game (not that there is much competition nowadays)
NEVER
uses it. Unless you can answer that question you need to accept that the premise, and your belief that stealth is good, is wrong. Oh and to save you the trouble, you cant answer it. The premise and your belief are just wrong.

I am sorry again , but you are wrong . You should give it a chance and see the Tournament .

I am not. I did watch it. I saw that you simply lied.

The majority of the classes and in the Meta are Bunkers , they don't have the firepower to 1-shot you in stealth .

They are not. This too is a lie.

Heh .. even you had said that in lower tier people don't know how to counter it . Give it a try , just watch the tournament or some youtube video about tricks of stealth

I did. The number 1 trick about stealth every thief learns is "never use stealth mid-combat". You should learn that too. And I see you avoided the Sindrener Question. Realising you have no answer? Of course you dont. Youre wrong, but clearly unwilling to accept it. But the fact that in-combat stealth is bad and never used by the highest tier players is undeniable and irrefutable. So lets leave it at that. That is fact, you deny that fact, making you no different from someone denying that the earth is round (or rather an ellipsoid).

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Captain Kuro.8937

Captain Kuro.8937

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the
, for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)

It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.

The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleanceI beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources

They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.

If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .Even on Vallun video a while back

Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.

It behaves like Cloack And Dagger

If you cloak and Dagger when youre already stealthed you also get revealed.

Mug its on Deadly spec .And we are talking about meta builds

There is just redundant. Why would you want stealth on steal? You steal backstab when engaging. Youre not gonna steal for stealth mid-combat, and out of combat you have stealth anyway.

You cannot remove a clutch Burn , because they are overbearing conditions. So 1x condtion removal is worthless .

Hardly. Shadows Embrace is nice in that it only removes
damaging
conditions. So if they have burn cripple and so on, you remove the burn. Even 1 condi cleanse is quite valuable, especially on a class that generally lacks them.

I believe that Thief actually use stealth to benefit from it much more

Not really. If you try to stealth mid-combat, you just get hit for a ton more damage than you would remove from the 1 condi cleanse. Youre also not gonna be able to just stay in stealth and wait for another tick, you die before that. Its legitimately just for the healing skill.

Rather than wasting 9 resources on Heartseeker + Powder and then steal , you can instead simply Steal without a cost and gain stealth , also reduce the Shadowsteap from 50>40 sec and Blinding Powder 40>32 sec

Youre going to "waste" those 9 resources anyway, because you want to stack up Leeching Venoms, and you want to engage on them without them ever knowing you were there. Oh and since you use steal on the opening burst, that also means you wont be able to use it later. Reducing the CD of Shadowstep is nice, but not significant enough. You dont use Blinding Powder right now anyway.

Burns can be re-applied , so remove one is kinda worthless . If Thieves stealth more (which i believe they do) they benefit from it much more . The stealth from the healing spell lasts 2 sec (1s from PvP + Melds) , you will only benefit from 1 condtion removal from the start and not a second

They can be, but its still great. They stack the burst on you, and you negate it. And then you run away, so they cant just keep reapplying it. Thats why its great. Thieves do
NOT
stealth more. Because its actively suicidal and just about the only way a thief can get himself killed. It also doesnt benefit more at all. Youre not gonna survive waiting 3 seconds for the second condi removal. And yes, you only get the 1 condi removal at the start. Thats how the trait works.

Yeah you are going to waste 9 resources and stealth for 3 sec , or waste those 9 resources and use Hidden Thief for 6 sec stealth . Reggardles of what stealth method you choose the Leeching Venoms poison will still come up .

And in that case, you burn the steal before you can use it to engage. A complete waste. Both of a trait, and of steal. A terrible idea.

If you use the 20 sec heal that the trait does offer stealth in combat , is a defensive option that most thieves do . Its not suicidal , its called ''tactical get the hell away'' . And still Shadow Embrace is kinda worthless for a 2 sec stealth only . Maybe the majority of the stealth + streamers have a different tactics and use itmore than us ?

Stealth in combat is not a defensive option. Its suicidal. Here is what happens. You plop down a smoke field, try to heartseeker and whoops, your opponent decided to abuse the fact that youre stuck in 1.25 seconds worth of animation, threw some damage youre way, and youre suddenly downed. Why, that doesnt seem useful at all. Thats why you dont do it. Its why top tier streamers dont use it. And no, shadows embrace is still good for Concealing Restoration. Youre right, its not terribly much, but the alternatives are both
worse
. Merciful Ambush doesnt come into play often enough, and Hidden Thief is just not useful.

Rather than having 1 condition removal every 20 sec (on heal>stealth) . Its better to have :

I dont know why you think repeating the same wrong thing maakes it true. No, Hidden Thief is
much
worse. End of story.

But in the other hand if poeple use stealth a lot more , like Vallun it makes sense that they benefit from it more

He doesnt. Look at Vallun. Look at Sindrener. See how often they use in-combat stealth. Unless its to finish off a target (usually when theyre 3 or 4v1) the answer is
never
. And in that situation, shadows embrace isnt doing anything.

Concealing Restoration is more suicidal , because you must wait before the channel ends and then you stealth .

Completely, utterly 100% wrong. When you use channeled vigor, you regain health. You still might take damage, but youre not even locked in an animation, you can move. Its 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times less suicidal.

While doing Black Powder offer some Blind and the Heartseeker some mobility (just like Dash)

You dont get the blind unless you target an enemy then drop targetting, which is clunky. And the mobility doesnt help you because your opponent knows exactly where you will move. Neither of those will save you from the grenade barrage Im aiming at you that will down you instantly. Which is why
EVERY
good thief avoids in-combat stealth. Please, for future reference, dont talk about thief if you dont know thief.

No i am sorry , but you are kinda wrong here .

I am absolutely correct. You are the one who is wrong.

If the majority of the streamers + metabattle have that traits ,it mean that they stealth more and benefit from that trait . Otherwise they would take that Hidden Thief .

Wrong. Hidden Thief is worse. Even if you just use concealing restoration (Which yes, is what they do), it is so much worse. But if you dont believe me, just go ahead and watch Sindrener. He is using Shadows Embrace. See how often he goes for in-combat stealth (Or let me spoil you: Almost never).

They know more than you and me .You could look at the Vallun Video , where he stealth and use Dash to get away from danger . If you some problems with stealthing up , we can meet inside and give you some tips

They do. Thats why they
DONT
stealth mid-combat. They know its suicidal and the worst thing a thief can do by far. Watch
most recent games on sinds youtube channel. Pop Quiz: During the entire 15 minute match, how many times does he stealth mid combat? The answer is
once
. Against a prot holo that cant punish him. Didnt clear any condis doing it though. And still he runs shadows embrace. Why? Because its much better than hidden thief, even if you just use concealing restoration like the good thieves do. Why? Well I already explained.

I saw multiply thieves from the tournament and Vallun use stealth .

Out of combat stealth. Yes. In-combat stealth? No. Well, other than maybe the condi thieves using Shadow Refuge to immediately leave stealth and just proc shadow bolts on the stealth attack. That appears to be how it was used.

And Sind uses the Embrace trait vs heavy condition opponents , while the enemy waste aoes , he hides and uses the trait to cleanse conditions

No, he uses them against
all
opponents. He does not do what you describe
EVER
. Because that doesnt work. You do not stealth mid-combat (unless its to finish off an outnumbered enemy, maybe, and
maybe
if youre facing a low-damage bunker and wanna prepare to switch targets to someone a bit further way. But even in that case, it makes more sense to get out first, then stealth). If you stealth mid-combat, you die unless your opponent is playing a low-damage bunker. And even then you sometimes die. Thats why you dont use it.

I am hopping to see a Grenade Barrage Enginner on the Tournaments on July . Maybe we can see that spec to be used vs stealth Mesmer also

Why? Grenade Engineer isnt particularly good. Its just an example because I play it. Any class can punish thief for trying to stealth mid-combat. Thats why every single good thief doesnt use mid-combat stealth. And yet they use Shadows Embrace, because its still much better. It is that simple. Accept the fact, or be quiet.

Ehm ...other specs too exept the 2x French . The majority of the enemies are Bunkers and while you having the damage reduction from the Daredevil traits , they cannot huke you high enought

And they too didnt use it, other than
exactly
with shadow Refuge and dropping it
exactly
instantly just to get the stealth attack with the shadow projectile finishers. The damage reduction traits wont be active when you try to stealth up (you move out of range and the enemy wont be weak). Right now even bunkers can do a lot of damage, and far from everyone is playing bunkers. You will get nuked.

I thought for a sec that Grenade Engineer , was death incarnate with all these '''if you stealth , you will get nuked by it'' .In lower levels everything works and everything punish each other

The point is that
even
Grenade Engineer can nuke you when you try to stealth. Any build can. Its funny that you bring up lower levels, because its
ONLY
in lower levels that thieves use stealth mid-combat. Because they arent good, and their opponents arent good. In high level, you will almost never see a thief use stealth mid-combat. If they want to run, they shortbow 5. If they want to fight, they use shadow shot, heartseekr or swap to shortbow. But never, ever, under any circumstances, do they go for stealth. And still Shadows Embrace is run. Because its better.

There where other teams that they used D/P and use it to stealth . For example there was a team with 2 Thieves that made it to the top 8 and lost from the 1 French , that their job was to go far and take turns attacking/stealthing up to win matches vs Mesmers + other other Bunkers .

They use
out of combat
stealth. Yes, that is true. However, there Shadows Embrace doesnt matter. Youre out of combat. You didnt have any conditions. They did not use in-combat stealth at all.

At the final 6 , Cheese vs 55rank i believe you could see some stealth ingame action too . If you are near the target >hit> try to stealth up the damage reduction traits will be working fine

Out of combat stealth, yes. In combat stealth, no. And no, they wont, your heartseeker will move you too far away. Sorry.

I hope we can see the Grenade Enginner in the tournament , its sound preety fun for 1-shot aoes burst

It doesnt oneshot anything but the squishy thieves that already took damage from sticking in a fight. Again, you fixate on the wrong things. But let me just reiterate once more. Good thieves do not use in-combat stealth. If they are activaly fighting an enemy, under (almost) no circumstances will they ever stealth, because its suicidal. They will ONLY stealth out of combat. As a result, Shadows Embrace is ONLY used for concealing restoration, a single condi clear on your healing skill. And its still used over hidden thief, because its much better than hidden thief, even then.

Those 2 D/P thiefs took turns . If some1 was low on hp he would stealth up in combta , heal and then come back . The same tactic they used in mid in teamfights .

Im gonna assume that he did not stealth up in combat, but out of combat. A quick look over the game I assume youre describing confirms that assumption. They used out of combat stealth, not in-combat stealth.

Heartseeker is not effected by out of combat stealth or in combat stealth .It travels the same distance , just like Dash . Its ok if you have some questions about how things works

I know, youre missing the point. The point is that when you use in-combat stealth, youre locked into your animation. Your heartseeker will take you a set distance away in a set direction. The enemy will punish and down you. Hence why good thieves do not ever use in-combat stealth. Did you finally understand that? Yes? Good. Lets leave the fact that thief doesnt use in-combat stealth as that, as well as the fact that shadows embrace is used only for concealing restoration and is still better than hidden thief.

Could you post some pic with the burst of Barrage ? So i wont underestimate it on my que ?

Too much effort, cant be bothered.

I am sure 100% that that team with the those 2x Thieves that made it to the final 8 , they used Heartseeker+ Powder for stealth , when they where 50% hp . While the other maintain the pressure . Or like other thieves from other teams .

The only one I saw did not use it in-combat. When they wanted to get out, they did like any good thief does, and shortbow 5 out. If they tried to BP + Heartseeker for stealth when they were at 50%, they wouldve just died.

Not all classes punish you while you do the stealth combo , and the 90% of the majority are Bunkers . In lower tiers where everyone is wearing Berseker amulets , they might punish the thief for trying to stealth up . But the current meta is Bunker-Condition

Incorrect. All classes punish you when doing the stealth combo. Most arent bunkers. Condi isnt meta (hence why condi thief was such an upset). In lower tiers, people use stealth, because the thieves are bad and dont know its bad, and the enemies are bad and dont punish it. In high level, they do not ever use stealth mid-combat.

Hence they stealth up and use the Shadow Embrace trait

Incorrect. They do not stealth up, and shadows embrace is used exclusively for concealing restoration. As I have explained, both of these are undeniable facts. You can look at all of Sindreners games, you will see he does not ever stealth up mid-combat. For this exact same reason. And he still uses Shadows Embrace. Because its still better than hidden thief. Is the fact that these are undeniable facts finally clear to you? Because I would like to not have to repeat myself just because you want to believe that thieves use in-combat stealth, despite it being undeniable fact that they do not.

First of all thieves have Dash also , which is free if they are going to escape .

Dash alone wont get you far. You need shortbow.

And secondary you should watch the Tournament stream , you might take some ideas about the tricks on stealthing in-game .Or meet me ingame

So youre gonna make me repeat myself. In the combat, they didnt use stealth mid-combat. Full stop. They did not use it. Well, other than the exact one exception I have already listed and wont repeat. I dont need "ideas to stealth mid-combat", because unlike you, I know that its bad, and that good thieves dont use it. Well, not that I need it, I dont play thief.

If in lower levels , the people dont know how to punish a person stealthing , while in higher tiers people using D/P combo to stealth in combat . So the premish that people avoiding stealth , its no true :)

That is a lie. In higher tiers people
NEVER
stealth mid-combat. Let me repeat myself so that it gets through to you finally. They.
Never
. Stealth. Mid. Combat. Again, just take a look at Sindrener. If you watch his videos and keep track, you will find that in the vast majority of games he plays, he stealths mid-combat exactly
0
times. Thats right, not at all. In
rare
games he stealths once. Maybe twice. In
NO
game whatsoever does he stealth mid-combat regularly. So, the premise that people avoid stealth is absolutely true, despite your insistence to disgregard the truth.

450 yards , 0 cost , vs 600 yards half resources , well there is no contest on which to chooseIf you add them up , well you have more mobility that Vanilia i believe .

Shortbow is 900 units, not 600. It also is much faster than Dash. There is indeed no contest on which to choose, the answer is Shortbow 5,
always
.

The thieves used ingame combat to survive , you should watch the Tournaments , rather than go in circles .

I did watch it. They didnt. They never used in-combat stealth to survive, because if would achieve the exact opposite. It would ensure their death.

Its ok , if you don't know some things , you don't to insist something that is not true . People are using stealth in high and low tiers . Its not underpowered beyond redemption as you are saying . You haven't simply don't know some high level tricks

It is ok if I dont know somethings. This is not one of them. I know it. You clearly do not, yet try to talk as if you have the faintest clue. People do not use in-combat stealth in high tiers (they do use out of combat stealth). Full stop. This is undeniable fact. You can deny this if you want, but know that it doesnt make the truth less true. It just makes you no different from a flat earther. So if you deny it once more despite the fact that its true, I will assume you indeed are one, and disregard you. It is underpowered, hence why its not used.

But in the vain hope that this will finally get through to you, answer me this. If in-combat stealth is so great. If its supposedly used in higher tiers. How comes Sindrener, the best thief in the game (not that there is much competition nowadays)
NEVER
uses it. Unless you can answer that question you need to accept that the premise, and your belief that stealth is good, is wrong. Oh and to save you the trouble, you cant answer it. The premise and your belief are just wrong.

I am sorry again , but you are wrong . You should give it a chance and see the Tournament .

I am not. I did watch it. I saw that you simply lied.

The majority of the classes and in the Meta are Bunkers , they don't have the firepower to 1-shot you in stealth .

They are not. This too is a lie.

Heh .. even you had said that in lower tier people don't know how to counter it . Give it a try , just watch the tournament or some youtube video about tricks of stealth

I did. The number 1 trick about stealth every thief learns is "never use stealth mid-combat". You should learn that too. And I see you avoided the Sindrener Question. Realising you have no answer? Of course you dont. Youre wrong, but clearly unwilling to accept it. But the fact that in-combat stealth is bad and never used by the highest tier players is undeniable and irrefutable. So lets leave it at that. That is fact, you deny that fact, making you no different from someone denying that the earth is round (or rather an ellipsoid).

I am sorry , but you really have to see that Thiefs use the in-combat stealth in those Tournaments .We are started as noobs , but we got better with watching othersGive it a try .Other people found a way to use stealth as a tactic , dont be afraid to improve yourself

Btw : which streamer said ''never use stealth mid-combat'' ?Sindrener ?Is he the one currupting the youth , with his sexy body ?

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@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the
, for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)

It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.

The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleanceI beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources

They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.

If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .Even on Vallun video a while back

Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.

It behaves like Cloack And Dagger

If you cloak and Dagger when youre already stealthed you also get revealed.

Mug its on Deadly spec .And we are talking about meta builds

There is just redundant. Why would you want stealth on steal? You steal backstab when engaging. Youre not gonna steal for stealth mid-combat, and out of combat you have stealth anyway.

You cannot remove a clutch Burn , because they are overbearing conditions. So 1x condtion removal is worthless .

Hardly. Shadows Embrace is nice in that it only removes
damaging
conditions. So if they have burn cripple and so on, you remove the burn. Even 1 condi cleanse is quite valuable, especially on a class that generally lacks them.

I believe that Thief actually use stealth to benefit from it much more

Not really. If you try to stealth mid-combat, you just get hit for a ton more damage than you would remove from the 1 condi cleanse. Youre also not gonna be able to just stay in stealth and wait for another tick, you die before that. Its legitimately just for the healing skill.

Rather than wasting 9 resources on Heartseeker + Powder and then steal , you can instead simply Steal without a cost and gain stealth , also reduce the Shadowsteap from 50>40 sec and Blinding Powder 40>32 sec

Youre going to "waste" those 9 resources anyway, because you want to stack up Leeching Venoms, and you want to engage on them without them ever knowing you were there. Oh and since you use steal on the opening burst, that also means you wont be able to use it later. Reducing the CD of Shadowstep is nice, but not significant enough. You dont use Blinding Powder right now anyway.

Burns can be re-applied , so remove one is kinda worthless . If Thieves stealth more (which i believe they do) they benefit from it much more . The stealth from the healing spell lasts 2 sec (1s from PvP + Melds) , you will only benefit from 1 condtion removal from the start and not a second

They can be, but its still great. They stack the burst on you, and you negate it. And then you run away, so they cant just keep reapplying it. Thats why its great. Thieves do
NOT
stealth more. Because its actively suicidal and just about the only way a thief can get himself killed. It also doesnt benefit more at all. Youre not gonna survive waiting 3 seconds for the second condi removal. And yes, you only get the 1 condi removal at the start. Thats how the trait works.

Yeah you are going to waste 9 resources and stealth for 3 sec , or waste those 9 resources and use Hidden Thief for 6 sec stealth . Reggardles of what stealth method you choose the Leeching Venoms poison will still come up .

And in that case, you burn the steal before you can use it to engage. A complete waste. Both of a trait, and of steal. A terrible idea.

If you use the 20 sec heal that the trait does offer stealth in combat , is a defensive option that most thieves do . Its not suicidal , its called ''tactical get the hell away'' . And still Shadow Embrace is kinda worthless for a 2 sec stealth only . Maybe the majority of the stealth + streamers have a different tactics and use itmore than us ?

Stealth in combat is not a defensive option. Its suicidal. Here is what happens. You plop down a smoke field, try to heartseeker and whoops, your opponent decided to abuse the fact that youre stuck in 1.25 seconds worth of animation, threw some damage youre way, and youre suddenly downed. Why, that doesnt seem useful at all. Thats why you dont do it. Its why top tier streamers dont use it. And no, shadows embrace is still good for Concealing Restoration. Youre right, its not terribly much, but the alternatives are both
worse
. Merciful Ambush doesnt come into play often enough, and Hidden Thief is just not useful.

Rather than having 1 condition removal every 20 sec (on heal>stealth) . Its better to have :

I dont know why you think repeating the same wrong thing maakes it true. No, Hidden Thief is
much
worse. End of story.

But in the other hand if poeple use stealth a lot more , like Vallun it makes sense that they benefit from it more

He doesnt. Look at Vallun. Look at Sindrener. See how often they use in-combat stealth. Unless its to finish off a target (usually when theyre 3 or 4v1) the answer is
never
. And in that situation, shadows embrace isnt doing anything.

Concealing Restoration is more suicidal , because you must wait before the channel ends and then you stealth .

Completely, utterly 100% wrong. When you use channeled vigor, you regain health. You still might take damage, but youre not even locked in an animation, you can move. Its 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times less suicidal.

While doing Black Powder offer some Blind and the Heartseeker some mobility (just like Dash)

You dont get the blind unless you target an enemy then drop targetting, which is clunky. And the mobility doesnt help you because your opponent knows exactly where you will move. Neither of those will save you from the grenade barrage Im aiming at you that will down you instantly. Which is why
EVERY
good thief avoids in-combat stealth. Please, for future reference, dont talk about thief if you dont know thief.

No i am sorry , but you are kinda wrong here .

I am absolutely correct. You are the one who is wrong.

If the majority of the streamers + metabattle have that traits ,it mean that they stealth more and benefit from that trait . Otherwise they would take that Hidden Thief .

Wrong. Hidden Thief is worse. Even if you just use concealing restoration (Which yes, is what they do), it is so much worse. But if you dont believe me, just go ahead and watch Sindrener. He is using Shadows Embrace. See how often he goes for in-combat stealth (Or let me spoil you: Almost never).

They know more than you and me .You could look at the Vallun Video , where he stealth and use Dash to get away from danger . If you some problems with stealthing up , we can meet inside and give you some tips

They do. Thats why they
DONT
stealth mid-combat. They know its suicidal and the worst thing a thief can do by far. Watch
most recent games on sinds youtube channel. Pop Quiz: During the entire 15 minute match, how many times does he stealth mid combat? The answer is
once
. Against a prot holo that cant punish him. Didnt clear any condis doing it though. And still he runs shadows embrace. Why? Because its much better than hidden thief, even if you just use concealing restoration like the good thieves do. Why? Well I already explained.

I saw multiply thieves from the tournament and Vallun use stealth .

Out of combat stealth. Yes. In-combat stealth? No. Well, other than maybe the condi thieves using Shadow Refuge to immediately leave stealth and just proc shadow bolts on the stealth attack. That appears to be how it was used.

And Sind uses the Embrace trait vs heavy condition opponents , while the enemy waste aoes , he hides and uses the trait to cleanse conditions

No, he uses them against
all
opponents. He does not do what you describe
EVER
. Because that doesnt work. You do not stealth mid-combat (unless its to finish off an outnumbered enemy, maybe, and
maybe
if youre facing a low-damage bunker and wanna prepare to switch targets to someone a bit further way. But even in that case, it makes more sense to get out first, then stealth). If you stealth mid-combat, you die unless your opponent is playing a low-damage bunker. And even then you sometimes die. Thats why you dont use it.

I am hopping to see a Grenade Barrage Enginner on the Tournaments on July . Maybe we can see that spec to be used vs stealth Mesmer also

Why? Grenade Engineer isnt particularly good. Its just an example because I play it. Any class can punish thief for trying to stealth mid-combat. Thats why every single good thief doesnt use mid-combat stealth. And yet they use Shadows Embrace, because its still much better. It is that simple. Accept the fact, or be quiet.

Ehm ...other specs too exept the 2x French . The majority of the enemies are Bunkers and while you having the damage reduction from the Daredevil traits , they cannot huke you high enought

And they too didnt use it, other than
exactly
with shadow Refuge and dropping it
exactly
instantly just to get the stealth attack with the shadow projectile finishers. The damage reduction traits wont be active when you try to stealth up (you move out of range and the enemy wont be weak). Right now even bunkers can do a lot of damage, and far from everyone is playing bunkers. You will get nuked.

I thought for a sec that Grenade Engineer , was death incarnate with all these '''if you stealth , you will get nuked by it'' .In lower levels everything works and everything punish each other

The point is that
even
Grenade Engineer can nuke you when you try to stealth. Any build can. Its funny that you bring up lower levels, because its
ONLY
in lower levels that thieves use stealth mid-combat. Because they arent good, and their opponents arent good. In high level, you will almost never see a thief use stealth mid-combat. If they want to run, they shortbow 5. If they want to fight, they use shadow shot, heartseekr or swap to shortbow. But never, ever, under any circumstances, do they go for stealth. And still Shadows Embrace is run. Because its better.

There where other teams that they used D/P and use it to stealth . For example there was a team with 2 Thieves that made it to the top 8 and lost from the 1 French , that their job was to go far and take turns attacking/stealthing up to win matches vs Mesmers + other other Bunkers .

They use
out of combat
stealth. Yes, that is true. However, there Shadows Embrace doesnt matter. Youre out of combat. You didnt have any conditions. They did not use in-combat stealth at all.

At the final 6 , Cheese vs 55rank i believe you could see some stealth ingame action too . If you are near the target >hit> try to stealth up the damage reduction traits will be working fine

Out of combat stealth, yes. In combat stealth, no. And no, they wont, your heartseeker will move you too far away. Sorry.

I hope we can see the Grenade Enginner in the tournament , its sound preety fun for 1-shot aoes burst

It doesnt oneshot anything but the squishy thieves that already took damage from sticking in a fight. Again, you fixate on the wrong things. But let me just reiterate once more. Good thieves do not use in-combat stealth. If they are activaly fighting an enemy, under (almost) no circumstances will they ever stealth, because its suicidal. They will ONLY stealth out of combat. As a result, Shadows Embrace is ONLY used for concealing restoration, a single condi clear on your healing skill. And its still used over hidden thief, because its much better than hidden thief, even then.

Those 2 D/P thiefs took turns . If some1 was low on hp he would stealth up in combta , heal and then come back . The same tactic they used in mid in teamfights .

Im gonna assume that he did not stealth up in combat, but out of combat. A quick look over the game I assume youre describing confirms that assumption. They used out of combat stealth, not in-combat stealth.

Heartseeker is not effected by out of combat stealth or in combat stealth .It travels the same distance , just like Dash . Its ok if you have some questions about how things works

I know, youre missing the point. The point is that when you use in-combat stealth, youre locked into your animation. Your heartseeker will take you a set distance away in a set direction. The enemy will punish and down you. Hence why good thieves do not ever use in-combat stealth. Did you finally understand that? Yes? Good. Lets leave the fact that thief doesnt use in-combat stealth as that, as well as the fact that shadows embrace is used only for concealing restoration and is still better than hidden thief.

Could you post some pic with the burst of Barrage ? So i wont underestimate it on my que ?

Too much effort, cant be bothered.

I am sure 100% that that team with the those 2x Thieves that made it to the final 8 , they used Heartseeker+ Powder for stealth , when they where 50% hp . While the other maintain the pressure . Or like other thieves from other teams .

The only one I saw did not use it in-combat. When they wanted to get out, they did like any good thief does, and shortbow 5 out. If they tried to BP + Heartseeker for stealth when they were at 50%, they wouldve just died.

Not all classes punish you while you do the stealth combo , and the 90% of the majority are Bunkers . In lower tiers where everyone is wearing Berseker amulets , they might punish the thief for trying to stealth up . But the current meta is Bunker-Condition

Incorrect. All classes punish you when doing the stealth combo. Most arent bunkers. Condi isnt meta (hence why condi thief was such an upset). In lower tiers, people use stealth, because the thieves are bad and dont know its bad, and the enemies are bad and dont punish it. In high level, they do not ever use stealth mid-combat.

Hence they stealth up and use the Shadow Embrace trait

Incorrect. They do not stealth up, and shadows embrace is used exclusively for concealing restoration. As I have explained, both of these are undeniable facts. You can look at all of Sindreners games, you will see he does not ever stealth up mid-combat. For this exact same reason. And he still uses Shadows Embrace. Because its still better than hidden thief. Is the fact that these are undeniable facts finally clear to you? Because I would like to not have to repeat myself just because you want to believe that thieves use in-combat stealth, despite it being undeniable fact that they do not.

First of all thieves have Dash also , which is free if they are going to escape .

Dash alone wont get you far. You need shortbow.

And secondary you should watch the Tournament stream , you might take some ideas about the tricks on stealthing in-game .Or meet me ingame

So youre gonna make me repeat myself. In the combat, they didnt use stealth mid-combat. Full stop. They did not use it. Well, other than the exact one exception I have already listed and wont repeat. I dont need "ideas to stealth mid-combat", because unlike you, I know that its bad, and that good thieves dont use it. Well, not that I need it, I dont play thief.

If in lower levels , the people dont know how to punish a person stealthing , while in higher tiers people using D/P combo to stealth in combat . So the premish that people avoiding stealth , its no true :)

That is a lie. In higher tiers people
NEVER
stealth mid-combat. Let me repeat myself so that it gets through to you finally. They.
Never
. Stealth. Mid. Combat. Again, just take a look at Sindrener. If you watch his videos and keep track, you will find that in the vast majority of games he plays, he stealths mid-combat exactly
0
times. Thats right, not at all. In
rare
games he stealths once. Maybe twice. In
NO
game whatsoever does he stealth mid-combat regularly. So, the premise that people avoid stealth is absolutely true, despite your insistence to disgregard the truth.

450 yards , 0 cost , vs 600 yards half resources , well there is no contest on which to chooseIf you add them up , well you have more mobility that Vanilia i believe .

Shortbow is 900 units, not 600. It also is much faster than Dash. There is indeed no contest on which to choose, the answer is Shortbow 5,
always
.

The thieves used ingame combat to survive , you should watch the Tournaments , rather than go in circles .

I did watch it. They didnt. They never used in-combat stealth to survive, because if would achieve the exact opposite. It would ensure their death.

Its ok , if you don't know some things , you don't to insist something that is not true . People are using stealth in high and low tiers . Its not underpowered beyond redemption as you are saying . You haven't simply don't know some high level tricks

It is ok if I dont know somethings. This is not one of them. I know it. You clearly do not, yet try to talk as if you have the faintest clue. People do not use in-combat stealth in high tiers (they do use out of combat stealth). Full stop. This is undeniable fact. You can deny this if you want, but know that it doesnt make the truth less true. It just makes you no different from a flat earther. So if you deny it once more despite the fact that its true, I will assume you indeed are one, and disregard you. It is underpowered, hence why its not used.

But in the vain hope that this will finally get through to you, answer me this. If in-combat stealth is so great. If its supposedly used in higher tiers. How comes Sindrener, the best thief in the game (not that there is much competition nowadays)
NEVER
uses it. Unless you can answer that question you need to accept that the premise, and your belief that stealth is good, is wrong. Oh and to save you the trouble, you cant answer it. The premise and your belief are just wrong.

I am sorry again , but you are wrong . You should give it a chance and see the Tournament .

I am not. I did watch it. I saw that you simply lied.

The majority of the classes and in the Meta are Bunkers , they don't have the firepower to 1-shot you in stealth .

They are not. This too is a lie.

Heh .. even you had said that in lower tier people don't know how to counter it . Give it a try , just watch the tournament or some youtube video about tricks of stealth

I did. The number 1 trick about stealth every thief learns is "never use stealth mid-combat". You should learn that too. And I see you avoided the Sindrener Question. Realising you have no answer? Of course you dont. Youre wrong, but clearly unwilling to accept it. But the fact that in-combat stealth is bad and never used by the highest tier players is undeniable and irrefutable. So lets leave it at that. That is fact, you deny that fact, making you no different from someone denying that the earth is round (or rather an ellipsoid).

I am sorry , but you really have to see that Thiefs use the in-combat stealth in those Tournaments .

I cant see what isnt there. Unless you call "exiting the fight, getting outside of the enemy range, and then stealthing up" in-combat stealth. Which it is not.

We are started as noobs , but we got better with watching others

Something you should take to heart. You should watch good thieves. See how they dont use in-combat stealth. You could learn a lot from that.

Give it a try .Other people found a way to use stealth as a tactic , dont be afraid to improve yourself

They didnt. What people found is that out of combat stealth is great. But for in-combat, they found that the best tactic is to NEVER use it. The ultimate improvement any thief can obtain is to stop using stealth mid-combat like a complete idiot. Hence why, as I said, Sindrener doesnt ever use it. And once again you ignore the Sindrener question. At this point I have to assume that youre either trolling, or so invested in the lie you want to believe that the truth will never get through to you. Doesnt matter. The fact that in-combat stealth is bad and never used by high tier thieves is undeniable. People can check it themselves by watching Sindrener. Your refusal to accept the truth has no relevance.

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Captain Kuro.8937

Captain Kuro.8937

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the
, for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)

It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.

The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleanceI beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources

They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.

If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .Even on Vallun video a while back

Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.

It behaves like Cloack And Dagger

If you cloak and Dagger when youre already stealthed you also get revealed.

Mug its on Deadly spec .And we are talking about meta builds

There is just redundant. Why would you want stealth on steal? You steal backstab when engaging. Youre not gonna steal for stealth mid-combat, and out of combat you have stealth anyway.

You cannot remove a clutch Burn , because they are overbearing conditions. So 1x condtion removal is worthless .

Hardly. Shadows Embrace is nice in that it only removes
damaging
conditions. So if they have burn cripple and so on, you remove the burn. Even 1 condi cleanse is quite valuable, especially on a class that generally lacks them.

I believe that Thief actually use stealth to benefit from it much more

Not really. If you try to stealth mid-combat, you just get hit for a ton more damage than you would remove from the 1 condi cleanse. Youre also not gonna be able to just stay in stealth and wait for another tick, you die before that. Its legitimately just for the healing skill.

Rather than wasting 9 resources on Heartseeker + Powder and then steal , you can instead simply Steal without a cost and gain stealth , also reduce the Shadowsteap from 50>40 sec and Blinding Powder 40>32 sec

Youre going to "waste" those 9 resources anyway, because you want to stack up Leeching Venoms, and you want to engage on them without them ever knowing you were there. Oh and since you use steal on the opening burst, that also means you wont be able to use it later. Reducing the CD of Shadowstep is nice, but not significant enough. You dont use Blinding Powder right now anyway.

Burns can be re-applied , so remove one is kinda worthless . If Thieves stealth more (which i believe they do) they benefit from it much more . The stealth from the healing spell lasts 2 sec (1s from PvP + Melds) , you will only benefit from 1 condtion removal from the start and not a second

They can be, but its still great. They stack the burst on you, and you negate it. And then you run away, so they cant just keep reapplying it. Thats why its great. Thieves do
NOT
stealth more. Because its actively suicidal and just about the only way a thief can get himself killed. It also doesnt benefit more at all. Youre not gonna survive waiting 3 seconds for the second condi removal. And yes, you only get the 1 condi removal at the start. Thats how the trait works.

Yeah you are going to waste 9 resources and stealth for 3 sec , or waste those 9 resources and use Hidden Thief for 6 sec stealth . Reggardles of what stealth method you choose the Leeching Venoms poison will still come up .

And in that case, you burn the steal before you can use it to engage. A complete waste. Both of a trait, and of steal. A terrible idea.

If you use the 20 sec heal that the trait does offer stealth in combat , is a defensive option that most thieves do . Its not suicidal , its called ''tactical get the hell away'' . And still Shadow Embrace is kinda worthless for a 2 sec stealth only . Maybe the majority of the stealth + streamers have a different tactics and use itmore than us ?

Stealth in combat is not a defensive option. Its suicidal. Here is what happens. You plop down a smoke field, try to heartseeker and whoops, your opponent decided to abuse the fact that youre stuck in 1.25 seconds worth of animation, threw some damage youre way, and youre suddenly downed. Why, that doesnt seem useful at all. Thats why you dont do it. Its why top tier streamers dont use it. And no, shadows embrace is still good for Concealing Restoration. Youre right, its not terribly much, but the alternatives are both
worse
. Merciful Ambush doesnt come into play often enough, and Hidden Thief is just not useful.

Rather than having 1 condition removal every 20 sec (on heal>stealth) . Its better to have :

I dont know why you think repeating the same wrong thing maakes it true. No, Hidden Thief is
much
worse. End of story.

But in the other hand if poeple use stealth a lot more , like Vallun it makes sense that they benefit from it more

He doesnt. Look at Vallun. Look at Sindrener. See how often they use in-combat stealth. Unless its to finish off a target (usually when theyre 3 or 4v1) the answer is
never
. And in that situation, shadows embrace isnt doing anything.

Concealing Restoration is more suicidal , because you must wait before the channel ends and then you stealth .

Completely, utterly 100% wrong. When you use channeled vigor, you regain health. You still might take damage, but youre not even locked in an animation, you can move. Its 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times less suicidal.

While doing Black Powder offer some Blind and the Heartseeker some mobility (just like Dash)

You dont get the blind unless you target an enemy then drop targetting, which is clunky. And the mobility doesnt help you because your opponent knows exactly where you will move. Neither of those will save you from the grenade barrage Im aiming at you that will down you instantly. Which is why
EVERY
good thief avoids in-combat stealth. Please, for future reference, dont talk about thief if you dont know thief.

No i am sorry , but you are kinda wrong here .

I am absolutely correct. You are the one who is wrong.

If the majority of the streamers + metabattle have that traits ,it mean that they stealth more and benefit from that trait . Otherwise they would take that Hidden Thief .

Wrong. Hidden Thief is worse. Even if you just use concealing restoration (Which yes, is what they do), it is so much worse. But if you dont believe me, just go ahead and watch Sindrener. He is using Shadows Embrace. See how often he goes for in-combat stealth (Or let me spoil you: Almost never).

They know more than you and me .You could look at the Vallun Video , where he stealth and use Dash to get away from danger . If you some problems with stealthing up , we can meet inside and give you some tips

They do. Thats why they
DONT
stealth mid-combat. They know its suicidal and the worst thing a thief can do by far. Watch
most recent games on sinds youtube channel. Pop Quiz: During the entire 15 minute match, how many times does he stealth mid combat? The answer is
once
. Against a prot holo that cant punish him. Didnt clear any condis doing it though. And still he runs shadows embrace. Why? Because its much better than hidden thief, even if you just use concealing restoration like the good thieves do. Why? Well I already explained.

I saw multiply thieves from the tournament and Vallun use stealth .

Out of combat stealth. Yes. In-combat stealth? No. Well, other than maybe the condi thieves using Shadow Refuge to immediately leave stealth and just proc shadow bolts on the stealth attack. That appears to be how it was used.

And Sind uses the Embrace trait vs heavy condition opponents , while the enemy waste aoes , he hides and uses the trait to cleanse conditions

No, he uses them against
all
opponents. He does not do what you describe
EVER
. Because that doesnt work. You do not stealth mid-combat (unless its to finish off an outnumbered enemy, maybe, and
maybe
if youre facing a low-damage bunker and wanna prepare to switch targets to someone a bit further way. But even in that case, it makes more sense to get out first, then stealth). If you stealth mid-combat, you die unless your opponent is playing a low-damage bunker. And even then you sometimes die. Thats why you dont use it.

I am hopping to see a Grenade Barrage Enginner on the Tournaments on July . Maybe we can see that spec to be used vs stealth Mesmer also

Why? Grenade Engineer isnt particularly good. Its just an example because I play it. Any class can punish thief for trying to stealth mid-combat. Thats why every single good thief doesnt use mid-combat stealth. And yet they use Shadows Embrace, because its still much better. It is that simple. Accept the fact, or be quiet.

Ehm ...other specs too exept the 2x French . The majority of the enemies are Bunkers and while you having the damage reduction from the Daredevil traits , they cannot huke you high enought

And they too didnt use it, other than
exactly
with shadow Refuge and dropping it
exactly
instantly just to get the stealth attack with the shadow projectile finishers. The damage reduction traits wont be active when you try to stealth up (you move out of range and the enemy wont be weak). Right now even bunkers can do a lot of damage, and far from everyone is playing bunkers. You will get nuked.

I thought for a sec that Grenade Engineer , was death incarnate with all these '''if you stealth , you will get nuked by it'' .In lower levels everything works and everything punish each other

The point is that
even
Grenade Engineer can nuke you when you try to stealth. Any build can. Its funny that you bring up lower levels, because its
ONLY
in lower levels that thieves use stealth mid-combat. Because they arent good, and their opponents arent good. In high level, you will almost never see a thief use stealth mid-combat. If they want to run, they shortbow 5. If they want to fight, they use shadow shot, heartseekr or swap to shortbow. But never, ever, under any circumstances, do they go for stealth. And still Shadows Embrace is run. Because its better.

There where other teams that they used D/P and use it to stealth . For example there was a team with 2 Thieves that made it to the top 8 and lost from the 1 French , that their job was to go far and take turns attacking/stealthing up to win matches vs Mesmers + other other Bunkers .

They use
out of combat
stealth. Yes, that is true. However, there Shadows Embrace doesnt matter. Youre out of combat. You didnt have any conditions. They did not use in-combat stealth at all.

At the final 6 , Cheese vs 55rank i believe you could see some stealth ingame action too . If you are near the target >hit> try to stealth up the damage reduction traits will be working fine

Out of combat stealth, yes. In combat stealth, no. And no, they wont, your heartseeker will move you too far away. Sorry.

I hope we can see the Grenade Enginner in the tournament , its sound preety fun for 1-shot aoes burst

It doesnt oneshot anything but the squishy thieves that already took damage from sticking in a fight. Again, you fixate on the wrong things. But let me just reiterate once more. Good thieves do not use in-combat stealth. If they are activaly fighting an enemy, under (almost) no circumstances will they ever stealth, because its suicidal. They will ONLY stealth out of combat. As a result, Shadows Embrace is ONLY used for concealing restoration, a single condi clear on your healing skill. And its still used over hidden thief, because its much better than hidden thief, even then.

Those 2 D/P thiefs took turns . If some1 was low on hp he would stealth up in combta , heal and then come back . The same tactic they used in mid in teamfights .

Im gonna assume that he did not stealth up in combat, but out of combat. A quick look over the game I assume youre describing confirms that assumption. They used out of combat stealth, not in-combat stealth.

Heartseeker is not effected by out of combat stealth or in combat stealth .It travels the same distance , just like Dash . Its ok if you have some questions about how things works

I know, youre missing the point. The point is that when you use in-combat stealth, youre locked into your animation. Your heartseeker will take you a set distance away in a set direction. The enemy will punish and down you. Hence why good thieves do not ever use in-combat stealth. Did you finally understand that? Yes? Good. Lets leave the fact that thief doesnt use in-combat stealth as that, as well as the fact that shadows embrace is used only for concealing restoration and is still better than hidden thief.

Could you post some pic with the burst of Barrage ? So i wont underestimate it on my que ?

Too much effort, cant be bothered.

I am sure 100% that that team with the those 2x Thieves that made it to the final 8 , they used Heartseeker+ Powder for stealth , when they where 50% hp . While the other maintain the pressure . Or like other thieves from other teams .

The only one I saw did not use it in-combat. When they wanted to get out, they did like any good thief does, and shortbow 5 out. If they tried to BP + Heartseeker for stealth when they were at 50%, they wouldve just died.

Not all classes punish you while you do the stealth combo , and the 90% of the majority are Bunkers . In lower tiers where everyone is wearing Berseker amulets , they might punish the thief for trying to stealth up . But the current meta is Bunker-Condition

Incorrect. All classes punish you when doing the stealth combo. Most arent bunkers. Condi isnt meta (hence why condi thief was such an upset). In lower tiers, people use stealth, because the thieves are bad and dont know its bad, and the enemies are bad and dont punish it. In high level, they do not ever use stealth mid-combat.

Hence they stealth up and use the Shadow Embrace trait

Incorrect. They do not stealth up, and shadows embrace is used exclusively for concealing restoration. As I have explained, both of these are undeniable facts. You can look at all of Sindreners games, you will see he does not ever stealth up mid-combat. For this exact same reason. And he still uses Shadows Embrace. Because its still better than hidden thief. Is the fact that these are undeniable facts finally clear to you? Because I would like to not have to repeat myself just because you want to believe that thieves use in-combat stealth, despite it being undeniable fact that they do not.

First of all thieves have Dash also , which is free if they are going to escape .

Dash alone wont get you far. You need shortbow.

And secondary you should watch the Tournament stream , you might take some ideas about the tricks on stealthing in-game .Or meet me ingame

So youre gonna make me repeat myself. In the combat, they didnt use stealth mid-combat. Full stop. They did not use it. Well, other than the exact one exception I have already listed and wont repeat. I dont need "ideas to stealth mid-combat", because unlike you, I know that its bad, and that good thieves dont use it. Well, not that I need it, I dont play thief.

If in lower levels , the people dont know how to punish a person stealthing , while in higher tiers people using D/P combo to stealth in combat . So the premish that people avoiding stealth , its no true :)

That is a lie. In higher tiers people
NEVER
stealth mid-combat. Let me repeat myself so that it gets through to you finally. They.
Never
. Stealth. Mid. Combat. Again, just take a look at Sindrener. If you watch his videos and keep track, you will find that in the vast majority of games he plays, he stealths mid-combat exactly
0
times. Thats right, not at all. In
rare
games he stealths once. Maybe twice. In
NO
game whatsoever does he stealth mid-combat regularly. So, the premise that people avoid stealth is absolutely true, despite your insistence to disgregard the truth.

450 yards , 0 cost , vs 600 yards half resources , well there is no contest on which to chooseIf you add them up , well you have more mobility that Vanilia i believe .

Shortbow is 900 units, not 600. It also is much faster than Dash. There is indeed no contest on which to choose, the answer is Shortbow 5,
always
.

The thieves used ingame combat to survive , you should watch the Tournaments , rather than go in circles .

I did watch it. They didnt. They never used in-combat stealth to survive, because if would achieve the exact opposite. It would ensure their death.

Its ok , if you don't know some things , you don't to insist something that is not true . People are using stealth in high and low tiers . Its not underpowered beyond redemption as you are saying . You haven't simply don't know some high level tricks

It is ok if I dont know somethings. This is not one of them. I know it. You clearly do not, yet try to talk as if you have the faintest clue. People do not use in-combat stealth in high tiers (they do use out of combat stealth). Full stop. This is undeniable fact. You can deny this if you want, but know that it doesnt make the truth less true. It just makes you no different from a flat earther. So if you deny it once more despite the fact that its true, I will assume you indeed are one, and disregard you. It is underpowered, hence why its not used.

But in the vain hope that this will finally get through to you, answer me this. If in-combat stealth is so great. If its supposedly used in higher tiers. How comes Sindrener, the best thief in the game (not that there is much competition nowadays)
NEVER
uses it. Unless you can answer that question you need to accept that the premise, and your belief that stealth is good, is wrong. Oh and to save you the trouble, you cant answer it. The premise and your belief are just wrong.

I am sorry again , but you are wrong . You should give it a chance and see the Tournament .

I am not. I did watch it. I saw that you simply lied.

The majority of the classes and in the Meta are Bunkers , they don't have the firepower to 1-shot you in stealth .

They are not. This too is a lie.

Heh .. even you had said that in lower tier people don't know how to counter it . Give it a try , just watch the tournament or some youtube video about tricks of stealth

I did. The number 1 trick about stealth every thief learns is "never use stealth mid-combat". You should learn that too. And I see you avoided the Sindrener Question. Realising you have no answer? Of course you dont. Youre wrong, but clearly unwilling to accept it. But the fact that in-combat stealth is bad and never used by the highest tier players is undeniable and irrefutable. So lets leave it at that. That is fact, you deny that fact, making you no different from someone denying that the earth is round (or rather an ellipsoid).

I am sorry , but you really have to see that Thiefs use the in-combat stealth in those Tournaments .

I cant see what isnt there. Unless you call "exiting the fight, getting outside of the enemy range, and then stealthing up" in-combat stealth. Which it is not.

We are started as noobs , but we got better with watching others

Something you should take to heart. You should watch good thieves. See how they dont use in-combat stealth. You could learn a lot from that.

Give it a try .Other people found a way to use stealth as a tactic , dont be afraid to improve yourself

They didnt. What people found is that out of combat stealth is great. But for in-combat, they found that the best tactic is to
NEVER
use it. The ultimate improvement any thief can obtain is to stop using stealth mid-combat like a complete idiot. Hence why, as I said, Sindrener doesnt ever use it. And once again you ignore the Sindrener question. At this point I have to assume that youre either trolling, or so invested in the lie you want to believe that the truth will never get through to you. Doesnt matter. The fact that in-combat stealth is bad and never used by high tier thieves is undeniable. People can check it themselves by watching Sindrener. Your refusal to accept the truth has no relevance.

I mean , using Black Powder +Heartseeker after they hit the enemy and they are near him and try to escape , it doesnt sound as out of combat .You should watch the tournament , it will resolve and improve somewhat your skills .

Btw : which streamer said ''never use stealth mid-combat'' ?Sindrener ?

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UNOwen.7132

UNOwen.7132

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@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the
, for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)

It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.

The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleanceI beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources

They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.

If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .Even on Vallun video a while back

Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.

It behaves like Cloack And Dagger

If you cloak and Dagger when youre already stealthed you also get revealed.

Mug its on Deadly spec .And we are talking about meta builds

There is just redundant. Why would you want stealth on steal? You steal backstab when engaging. Youre not gonna steal for stealth mid-combat, and out of combat you have stealth anyway.

You cannot remove a clutch Burn , because they are overbearing conditions. So 1x condtion removal is worthless .

Hardly. Shadows Embrace is nice in that it only removes
damaging
conditions. So if they have burn cripple and so on, you remove the burn. Even 1 condi cleanse is quite valuable, especially on a class that generally lacks them.

I believe that Thief actually use stealth to benefit from it much more

Not really. If you try to stealth mid-combat, you just get hit for a ton more damage than you would remove from the 1 condi cleanse. Youre also not gonna be able to just stay in stealth and wait for another tick, you die before that. Its legitimately just for the healing skill.

Rather than wasting 9 resources on Heartseeker + Powder and then steal , you can instead simply Steal without a cost and gain stealth , also reduce the Shadowsteap from 50>40 sec and Blinding Powder 40>32 sec

Youre going to "waste" those 9 resources anyway, because you want to stack up Leeching Venoms, and you want to engage on them without them ever knowing you were there. Oh and since you use steal on the opening burst, that also means you wont be able to use it later. Reducing the CD of Shadowstep is nice, but not significant enough. You dont use Blinding Powder right now anyway.

Burns can be re-applied , so remove one is kinda worthless . If Thieves stealth more (which i believe they do) they benefit from it much more . The stealth from the healing spell lasts 2 sec (1s from PvP + Melds) , you will only benefit from 1 condtion removal from the start and not a second

They can be, but its still great. They stack the burst on you, and you negate it. And then you run away, so they cant just keep reapplying it. Thats why its great. Thieves do
NOT
stealth more. Because its actively suicidal and just about the only way a thief can get himself killed. It also doesnt benefit more at all. Youre not gonna survive waiting 3 seconds for the second condi removal. And yes, you only get the 1 condi removal at the start. Thats how the trait works.

Yeah you are going to waste 9 resources and stealth for 3 sec , or waste those 9 resources and use Hidden Thief for 6 sec stealth . Reggardles of what stealth method you choose the Leeching Venoms poison will still come up .

And in that case, you burn the steal before you can use it to engage. A complete waste. Both of a trait, and of steal. A terrible idea.

If you use the 20 sec heal that the trait does offer stealth in combat , is a defensive option that most thieves do . Its not suicidal , its called ''tactical get the hell away'' . And still Shadow Embrace is kinda worthless for a 2 sec stealth only . Maybe the majority of the stealth + streamers have a different tactics and use itmore than us ?

Stealth in combat is not a defensive option. Its suicidal. Here is what happens. You plop down a smoke field, try to heartseeker and whoops, your opponent decided to abuse the fact that youre stuck in 1.25 seconds worth of animation, threw some damage youre way, and youre suddenly downed. Why, that doesnt seem useful at all. Thats why you dont do it. Its why top tier streamers dont use it. And no, shadows embrace is still good for Concealing Restoration. Youre right, its not terribly much, but the alternatives are both
worse
. Merciful Ambush doesnt come into play often enough, and Hidden Thief is just not useful.

Rather than having 1 condition removal every 20 sec (on heal>stealth) . Its better to have :

I dont know why you think repeating the same wrong thing maakes it true. No, Hidden Thief is
much
worse. End of story.

But in the other hand if poeple use stealth a lot more , like Vallun it makes sense that they benefit from it more

He doesnt. Look at Vallun. Look at Sindrener. See how often they use in-combat stealth. Unless its to finish off a target (usually when theyre 3 or 4v1) the answer is
never
. And in that situation, shadows embrace isnt doing anything.

Concealing Restoration is more suicidal , because you must wait before the channel ends and then you stealth .

Completely, utterly 100% wrong. When you use channeled vigor, you regain health. You still might take damage, but youre not even locked in an animation, you can move. Its 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times less suicidal.

While doing Black Powder offer some Blind and the Heartseeker some mobility (just like Dash)

You dont get the blind unless you target an enemy then drop targetting, which is clunky. And the mobility doesnt help you because your opponent knows exactly where you will move. Neither of those will save you from the grenade barrage Im aiming at you that will down you instantly. Which is why
EVERY
good thief avoids in-combat stealth. Please, for future reference, dont talk about thief if you dont know thief.

No i am sorry , but you are kinda wrong here .

I am absolutely correct. You are the one who is wrong.

If the majority of the streamers + metabattle have that traits ,it mean that they stealth more and benefit from that trait . Otherwise they would take that Hidden Thief .

Wrong. Hidden Thief is worse. Even if you just use concealing restoration (Which yes, is what they do), it is so much worse. But if you dont believe me, just go ahead and watch Sindrener. He is using Shadows Embrace. See how often he goes for in-combat stealth (Or let me spoil you: Almost never).

They know more than you and me .You could look at the Vallun Video , where he stealth and use Dash to get away from danger . If you some problems with stealthing up , we can meet inside and give you some tips

They do. Thats why they
DONT
stealth mid-combat. They know its suicidal and the worst thing a thief can do by far. Watch
most recent games on sinds youtube channel. Pop Quiz: During the entire 15 minute match, how many times does he stealth mid combat? The answer is
once
. Against a prot holo that cant punish him. Didnt clear any condis doing it though. And still he runs shadows embrace. Why? Because its much better than hidden thief, even if you just use concealing restoration like the good thieves do. Why? Well I already explained.

I saw multiply thieves from the tournament and Vallun use stealth .

Out of combat stealth. Yes. In-combat stealth? No. Well, other than maybe the condi thieves using Shadow Refuge to immediately leave stealth and just proc shadow bolts on the stealth attack. That appears to be how it was used.

And Sind uses the Embrace trait vs heavy condition opponents , while the enemy waste aoes , he hides and uses the trait to cleanse conditions

No, he uses them against
all
opponents. He does not do what you describe
EVER
. Because that doesnt work. You do not stealth mid-combat (unless its to finish off an outnumbered enemy, maybe, and
maybe
if youre facing a low-damage bunker and wanna prepare to switch targets to someone a bit further way. But even in that case, it makes more sense to get out first, then stealth). If you stealth mid-combat, you die unless your opponent is playing a low-damage bunker. And even then you sometimes die. Thats why you dont use it.

I am hopping to see a Grenade Barrage Enginner on the Tournaments on July . Maybe we can see that spec to be used vs stealth Mesmer also

Why? Grenade Engineer isnt particularly good. Its just an example because I play it. Any class can punish thief for trying to stealth mid-combat. Thats why every single good thief doesnt use mid-combat stealth. And yet they use Shadows Embrace, because its still much better. It is that simple. Accept the fact, or be quiet.

Ehm ...other specs too exept the 2x French . The majority of the enemies are Bunkers and while you having the damage reduction from the Daredevil traits , they cannot huke you high enought

And they too didnt use it, other than
exactly
with shadow Refuge and dropping it
exactly
instantly just to get the stealth attack with the shadow projectile finishers. The damage reduction traits wont be active when you try to stealth up (you move out of range and the enemy wont be weak). Right now even bunkers can do a lot of damage, and far from everyone is playing bunkers. You will get nuked.

I thought for a sec that Grenade Engineer , was death incarnate with all these '''if you stealth , you will get nuked by it'' .In lower levels everything works and everything punish each other

The point is that
even
Grenade Engineer can nuke you when you try to stealth. Any build can. Its funny that you bring up lower levels, because its
ONLY
in lower levels that thieves use stealth mid-combat. Because they arent good, and their opponents arent good. In high level, you will almost never see a thief use stealth mid-combat. If they want to run, they shortbow 5. If they want to fight, they use shadow shot, heartseekr or swap to shortbow. But never, ever, under any circumstances, do they go for stealth. And still Shadows Embrace is run. Because its better.

There where other teams that they used D/P and use it to stealth . For example there was a team with 2 Thieves that made it to the top 8 and lost from the 1 French , that their job was to go far and take turns attacking/stealthing up to win matches vs Mesmers + other other Bunkers .

They use
out of combat
stealth. Yes, that is true. However, there Shadows Embrace doesnt matter. Youre out of combat. You didnt have any conditions. They did not use in-combat stealth at all.

At the final 6 , Cheese vs 55rank i believe you could see some stealth ingame action too . If you are near the target >hit> try to stealth up the damage reduction traits will be working fine

Out of combat stealth, yes. In combat stealth, no. And no, they wont, your heartseeker will move you too far away. Sorry.

I hope we can see the Grenade Enginner in the tournament , its sound preety fun for 1-shot aoes burst

It doesnt oneshot anything but the squishy thieves that already took damage from sticking in a fight. Again, you fixate on the wrong things. But let me just reiterate once more. Good thieves do not use in-combat stealth. If they are activaly fighting an enemy, under (almost) no circumstances will they ever stealth, because its suicidal. They will ONLY stealth out of combat. As a result, Shadows Embrace is ONLY used for concealing restoration, a single condi clear on your healing skill. And its still used over hidden thief, because its much better than hidden thief, even then.

Those 2 D/P thiefs took turns . If some1 was low on hp he would stealth up in combta , heal and then come back . The same tactic they used in mid in teamfights .

Im gonna assume that he did not stealth up in combat, but out of combat. A quick look over the game I assume youre describing confirms that assumption. They used out of combat stealth, not in-combat stealth.

Heartseeker is not effected by out of combat stealth or in combat stealth .It travels the same distance , just like Dash . Its ok if you have some questions about how things works

I know, youre missing the point. The point is that when you use in-combat stealth, youre locked into your animation. Your heartseeker will take you a set distance away in a set direction. The enemy will punish and down you. Hence why good thieves do not ever use in-combat stealth. Did you finally understand that? Yes? Good. Lets leave the fact that thief doesnt use in-combat stealth as that, as well as the fact that shadows embrace is used only for concealing restoration and is still better than hidden thief.

Could you post some pic with the burst of Barrage ? So i wont underestimate it on my que ?

Too much effort, cant be bothered.

I am sure 100% that that team with the those 2x Thieves that made it to the final 8 , they used Heartseeker+ Powder for stealth , when they where 50% hp . While the other maintain the pressure . Or like other thieves from other teams .

The only one I saw did not use it in-combat. When they wanted to get out, they did like any good thief does, and shortbow 5 out. If they tried to BP + Heartseeker for stealth when they were at 50%, they wouldve just died.

Not all classes punish you while you do the stealth combo , and the 90% of the majority are Bunkers . In lower tiers where everyone is wearing Berseker amulets , they might punish the thief for trying to stealth up . But the current meta is Bunker-Condition

Incorrect. All classes punish you when doing the stealth combo. Most arent bunkers. Condi isnt meta (hence why condi thief was such an upset). In lower tiers, people use stealth, because the thieves are bad and dont know its bad, and the enemies are bad and dont punish it. In high level, they do not ever use stealth mid-combat.

Hence they stealth up and use the Shadow Embrace trait

Incorrect. They do not stealth up, and shadows embrace is used exclusively for concealing restoration. As I have explained, both of these are undeniable facts. You can look at all of Sindreners games, you will see he does not ever stealth up mid-combat. For this exact same reason. And he still uses Shadows Embrace. Because its still better than hidden thief. Is the fact that these are undeniable facts finally clear to you? Because I would like to not have to repeat myself just because you want to believe that thieves use in-combat stealth, despite it being undeniable fact that they do not.

First of all thieves have Dash also , which is free if they are going to escape .

Dash alone wont get you far. You need shortbow.

And secondary you should watch the Tournament stream , you might take some ideas about the tricks on stealthing in-game .Or meet me ingame

So youre gonna make me repeat myself. In the combat, they didnt use stealth mid-combat. Full stop. They did not use it. Well, other than the exact one exception I have already listed and wont repeat. I dont need "ideas to stealth mid-combat", because unlike you, I know that its bad, and that good thieves dont use it. Well, not that I need it, I dont play thief.

If in lower levels , the people dont know how to punish a person stealthing , while in higher tiers people using D/P combo to stealth in combat . So the premish that people avoiding stealth , its no true :)

That is a lie. In higher tiers people
NEVER
stealth mid-combat. Let me repeat myself so that it gets through to you finally. They.
Never
. Stealth. Mid. Combat. Again, just take a look at Sindrener. If you watch his videos and keep track, you will find that in the vast majority of games he plays, he stealths mid-combat exactly
0
times. Thats right, not at all. In
rare
games he stealths once. Maybe twice. In
NO
game whatsoever does he stealth mid-combat regularly. So, the premise that people avoid stealth is absolutely true, despite your insistence to disgregard the truth.

450 yards , 0 cost , vs 600 yards half resources , well there is no contest on which to chooseIf you add them up , well you have more mobility that Vanilia i believe .

Shortbow is 900 units, not 600. It also is much faster than Dash. There is indeed no contest on which to choose, the answer is Shortbow 5,
always
.

The thieves used ingame combat to survive , you should watch the Tournaments , rather than go in circles .

I did watch it. They didnt. They never used in-combat stealth to survive, because if would achieve the exact opposite. It would ensure their death.

Its ok , if you don't know some things , you don't to insist something that is not true . People are using stealth in high and low tiers . Its not underpowered beyond redemption as you are saying . You haven't simply don't know some high level tricks

It is ok if I dont know somethings. This is not one of them. I know it. You clearly do not, yet try to talk as if you have the faintest clue. People do not use in-combat stealth in high tiers (they do use out of combat stealth). Full stop. This is undeniable fact. You can deny this if you want, but know that it doesnt make the truth less true. It just makes you no different from a flat earther. So if you deny it once more despite the fact that its true, I will assume you indeed are one, and disregard you. It is underpowered, hence why its not used.

But in the vain hope that this will finally get through to you, answer me this. If in-combat stealth is so great. If its supposedly used in higher tiers. How comes Sindrener, the best thief in the game (not that there is much competition nowadays)
NEVER
uses it. Unless you can answer that question you need to accept that the premise, and your belief that stealth is good, is wrong. Oh and to save you the trouble, you cant answer it. The premise and your belief are just wrong.

I am sorry again , but you are wrong . You should give it a chance and see the Tournament .

I am not. I did watch it. I saw that you simply lied.

The majority of the classes and in the Meta are Bunkers , they don't have the firepower to 1-shot you in stealth .

They are not. This too is a lie.

Heh .. even you had said that in lower tier people don't know how to counter it . Give it a try , just watch the tournament or some youtube video about tricks of stealth

I did. The number 1 trick about stealth every thief learns is "never use stealth mid-combat". You should learn that too. And I see you avoided the Sindrener Question. Realising you have no answer? Of course you dont. Youre wrong, but clearly unwilling to accept it. But the fact that in-combat stealth is bad and never used by the highest tier players is undeniable and irrefutable. So lets leave it at that. That is fact, you deny that fact, making you no different from someone denying that the earth is round (or rather an ellipsoid).

I am sorry , but you really have to see that Thiefs use the in-combat stealth in those Tournaments .

I cant see what isnt there. Unless you call "exiting the fight, getting outside of the enemy range, and then stealthing up" in-combat stealth. Which it is not.

We are started as noobs , but we got better with watching others

Something you should take to heart. You should watch good thieves. See how they dont use in-combat stealth. You could learn a lot from that.

Give it a try .Other people found a way to use stealth as a tactic , dont be afraid to improve yourself

They didnt. What people found is that out of combat stealth is great. But for in-combat, they found that the best tactic is to
NEVER
use it. The ultimate improvement any thief can obtain is to stop using stealth mid-combat like a complete idiot. Hence why, as I said, Sindrener doesnt ever use it. And once again you ignore the Sindrener question. At this point I have to assume that youre either trolling, or so invested in the lie you want to believe that the truth will never get through to you. Doesnt matter. The fact that in-combat stealth is bad and never used by high tier thieves is undeniable. People can check it themselves by watching Sindrener. Your refusal to accept the truth has no relevance.

I mean , using Black Powder +Heartseeker after they hit the enemy and they are near him and try to escape , it doesnt sound as out of combat .

Correct. They didnt do that.

You should watch the tournament , it will resolve and improve somewhat your skills .

I did. I saw that you lied. Hence why I called you out on it.

Btw : which streamer said ''never use stealth mid-combat'' ?Sindrener ?Is he the one currupting the youth , with his sexy body ?

None of them say it. Because they assume their viewers are good enough to understand themselves why in-combat stealth is bad. However, what they dont say, they show. As I said. Take any Sindrener video. See how often he stealths in-combat during the game. The answer is almost always 0, rarely 1, never regularly. If in-combat stealth is so great, why is it that he never uses it? Oh I know the answer. Its not great. Its awful. And he doesnt use it because its awful.

But Im getting tired of repeating the same thing over and over, hoping that you accept the truth at any point. So I will leave it off here. Youre free to deny the undeniable truth that in-combat stealth is bad and not used by good thief players. Please, do use in-combat stealth. Your enemies will be very happy. And maybe Ill get lucky and have you as my enemy so I can abuse the fact that youre not good enough to understand why in-combat stealth is so useless.

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Captain Kuro.8937

Captain Kuro.8937

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Posted

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the
, for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)

It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.

The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleanceI beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources

They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.

If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .Even on Vallun video a while back

Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.

It behaves like Cloack And Dagger

If you cloak and Dagger when youre already stealthed you also get revealed.

Mug its on Deadly spec .And we are talking about meta builds

There is just redundant. Why would you want stealth on steal? You steal backstab when engaging. Youre not gonna steal for stealth mid-combat, and out of combat you have stealth anyway.

You cannot remove a clutch Burn , because they are overbearing conditions. So 1x condtion removal is worthless .

Hardly. Shadows Embrace is nice in that it only removes
damaging
conditions. So if they have burn cripple and so on, you remove the burn. Even 1 condi cleanse is quite valuable, especially on a class that generally lacks them.

I believe that Thief actually use stealth to benefit from it much more

Not really. If you try to stealth mid-combat, you just get hit for a ton more damage than you would remove from the 1 condi cleanse. Youre also not gonna be able to just stay in stealth and wait for another tick, you die before that. Its legitimately just for the healing skill.

Rather than wasting 9 resources on Heartseeker + Powder and then steal , you can instead simply Steal without a cost and gain stealth , also reduce the Shadowsteap from 50>40 sec and Blinding Powder 40>32 sec

Youre going to "waste" those 9 resources anyway, because you want to stack up Leeching Venoms, and you want to engage on them without them ever knowing you were there. Oh and since you use steal on the opening burst, that also means you wont be able to use it later. Reducing the CD of Shadowstep is nice, but not significant enough. You dont use Blinding Powder right now anyway.

Burns can be re-applied , so remove one is kinda worthless . If Thieves stealth more (which i believe they do) they benefit from it much more . The stealth from the healing spell lasts 2 sec (1s from PvP + Melds) , you will only benefit from 1 condtion removal from the start and not a second

They can be, but its still great. They stack the burst on you, and you negate it. And then you run away, so they cant just keep reapplying it. Thats why its great. Thieves do
NOT
stealth more. Because its actively suicidal and just about the only way a thief can get himself killed. It also doesnt benefit more at all. Youre not gonna survive waiting 3 seconds for the second condi removal. And yes, you only get the 1 condi removal at the start. Thats how the trait works.

Yeah you are going to waste 9 resources and stealth for 3 sec , or waste those 9 resources and use Hidden Thief for 6 sec stealth . Reggardles of what stealth method you choose the Leeching Venoms poison will still come up .

And in that case, you burn the steal before you can use it to engage. A complete waste. Both of a trait, and of steal. A terrible idea.

If you use the 20 sec heal that the trait does offer stealth in combat , is a defensive option that most thieves do . Its not suicidal , its called ''tactical get the hell away'' . And still Shadow Embrace is kinda worthless for a 2 sec stealth only . Maybe the majority of the stealth + streamers have a different tactics and use itmore than us ?

Stealth in combat is not a defensive option. Its suicidal. Here is what happens. You plop down a smoke field, try to heartseeker and whoops, your opponent decided to abuse the fact that youre stuck in 1.25 seconds worth of animation, threw some damage youre way, and youre suddenly downed. Why, that doesnt seem useful at all. Thats why you dont do it. Its why top tier streamers dont use it. And no, shadows embrace is still good for Concealing Restoration. Youre right, its not terribly much, but the alternatives are both
worse
. Merciful Ambush doesnt come into play often enough, and Hidden Thief is just not useful.

Rather than having 1 condition removal every 20 sec (on heal>stealth) . Its better to have :

I dont know why you think repeating the same wrong thing maakes it true. No, Hidden Thief is
much
worse. End of story.

But in the other hand if poeple use stealth a lot more , like Vallun it makes sense that they benefit from it more

He doesnt. Look at Vallun. Look at Sindrener. See how often they use in-combat stealth. Unless its to finish off a target (usually when theyre 3 or 4v1) the answer is
never
. And in that situation, shadows embrace isnt doing anything.

Concealing Restoration is more suicidal , because you must wait before the channel ends and then you stealth .

Completely, utterly 100% wrong. When you use channeled vigor, you regain health. You still might take damage, but youre not even locked in an animation, you can move. Its 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times less suicidal.

While doing Black Powder offer some Blind and the Heartseeker some mobility (just like Dash)

You dont get the blind unless you target an enemy then drop targetting, which is clunky. And the mobility doesnt help you because your opponent knows exactly where you will move. Neither of those will save you from the grenade barrage Im aiming at you that will down you instantly. Which is why
EVERY
good thief avoids in-combat stealth. Please, for future reference, dont talk about thief if you dont know thief.

No i am sorry , but you are kinda wrong here .

I am absolutely correct. You are the one who is wrong.

If the majority of the streamers + metabattle have that traits ,it mean that they stealth more and benefit from that trait . Otherwise they would take that Hidden Thief .

Wrong. Hidden Thief is worse. Even if you just use concealing restoration (Which yes, is what they do), it is so much worse. But if you dont believe me, just go ahead and watch Sindrener. He is using Shadows Embrace. See how often he goes for in-combat stealth (Or let me spoil you: Almost never).

They know more than you and me .You could look at the Vallun Video , where he stealth and use Dash to get away from danger . If you some problems with stealthing up , we can meet inside and give you some tips

They do. Thats why they
DONT
stealth mid-combat. They know its suicidal and the worst thing a thief can do by far. Watch
most recent games on sinds youtube channel. Pop Quiz: During the entire 15 minute match, how many times does he stealth mid combat? The answer is
once
. Against a prot holo that cant punish him. Didnt clear any condis doing it though. And still he runs shadows embrace. Why? Because its much better than hidden thief, even if you just use concealing restoration like the good thieves do. Why? Well I already explained.

I saw multiply thieves from the tournament and Vallun use stealth .

Out of combat stealth. Yes. In-combat stealth? No. Well, other than maybe the condi thieves using Shadow Refuge to immediately leave stealth and just proc shadow bolts on the stealth attack. That appears to be how it was used.

And Sind uses the Embrace trait vs heavy condition opponents , while the enemy waste aoes , he hides and uses the trait to cleanse conditions

No, he uses them against
all
opponents. He does not do what you describe
EVER
. Because that doesnt work. You do not stealth mid-combat (unless its to finish off an outnumbered enemy, maybe, and
maybe
if youre facing a low-damage bunker and wanna prepare to switch targets to someone a bit further way. But even in that case, it makes more sense to get out first, then stealth). If you stealth mid-combat, you die unless your opponent is playing a low-damage bunker. And even then you sometimes die. Thats why you dont use it.

I am hopping to see a Grenade Barrage Enginner on the Tournaments on July . Maybe we can see that spec to be used vs stealth Mesmer also

Why? Grenade Engineer isnt particularly good. Its just an example because I play it. Any class can punish thief for trying to stealth mid-combat. Thats why every single good thief doesnt use mid-combat stealth. And yet they use Shadows Embrace, because its still much better. It is that simple. Accept the fact, or be quiet.

Ehm ...other specs too exept the 2x French . The majority of the enemies are Bunkers and while you having the damage reduction from the Daredevil traits , they cannot huke you high enought

And they too didnt use it, other than
exactly
with shadow Refuge and dropping it
exactly
instantly just to get the stealth attack with the shadow projectile finishers. The damage reduction traits wont be active when you try to stealth up (you move out of range and the enemy wont be weak). Right now even bunkers can do a lot of damage, and far from everyone is playing bunkers. You will get nuked.

I thought for a sec that Grenade Engineer , was death incarnate with all these '''if you stealth , you will get nuked by it'' .In lower levels everything works and everything punish each other

The point is that
even
Grenade Engineer can nuke you when you try to stealth. Any build can. Its funny that you bring up lower levels, because its
ONLY
in lower levels that thieves use stealth mid-combat. Because they arent good, and their opponents arent good. In high level, you will almost never see a thief use stealth mid-combat. If they want to run, they shortbow 5. If they want to fight, they use shadow shot, heartseekr or swap to shortbow. But never, ever, under any circumstances, do they go for stealth. And still Shadows Embrace is run. Because its better.

There where other teams that they used D/P and use it to stealth . For example there was a team with 2 Thieves that made it to the top 8 and lost from the 1 French , that their job was to go far and take turns attacking/stealthing up to win matches vs Mesmers + other other Bunkers .

They use
out of combat
stealth. Yes, that is true. However, there Shadows Embrace doesnt matter. Youre out of combat. You didnt have any conditions. They did not use in-combat stealth at all.

At the final 6 , Cheese vs 55rank i believe you could see some stealth ingame action too . If you are near the target >hit> try to stealth up the damage reduction traits will be working fine

Out of combat stealth, yes. In combat stealth, no. And no, they wont, your heartseeker will move you too far away. Sorry.

I hope we can see the Grenade Enginner in the tournament , its sound preety fun for 1-shot aoes burst

It doesnt oneshot anything but the squishy thieves that already took damage from sticking in a fight. Again, you fixate on the wrong things. But let me just reiterate once more. Good thieves do not use in-combat stealth. If they are activaly fighting an enemy, under (almost) no circumstances will they ever stealth, because its suicidal. They will ONLY stealth out of combat. As a result, Shadows Embrace is ONLY used for concealing restoration, a single condi clear on your healing skill. And its still used over hidden thief, because its much better than hidden thief, even then.

Those 2 D/P thiefs took turns . If some1 was low on hp he would stealth up in combta , heal and then come back . The same tactic they used in mid in teamfights .

Im gonna assume that he did not stealth up in combat, but out of combat. A quick look over the game I assume youre describing confirms that assumption. They used out of combat stealth, not in-combat stealth.

Heartseeker is not effected by out of combat stealth or in combat stealth .It travels the same distance , just like Dash . Its ok if you have some questions about how things works

I know, youre missing the point. The point is that when you use in-combat stealth, youre locked into your animation. Your heartseeker will take you a set distance away in a set direction. The enemy will punish and down you. Hence why good thieves do not ever use in-combat stealth. Did you finally understand that? Yes? Good. Lets leave the fact that thief doesnt use in-combat stealth as that, as well as the fact that shadows embrace is used only for concealing restoration and is still better than hidden thief.

Could you post some pic with the burst of Barrage ? So i wont underestimate it on my que ?

Too much effort, cant be bothered.

I am sure 100% that that team with the those 2x Thieves that made it to the final 8 , they used Heartseeker+ Powder for stealth , when they where 50% hp . While the other maintain the pressure . Or like other thieves from other teams .

The only one I saw did not use it in-combat. When they wanted to get out, they did like any good thief does, and shortbow 5 out. If they tried to BP + Heartseeker for stealth when they were at 50%, they wouldve just died.

Not all classes punish you while you do the stealth combo , and the 90% of the majority are Bunkers . In lower tiers where everyone is wearing Berseker amulets , they might punish the thief for trying to stealth up . But the current meta is Bunker-Condition

Incorrect. All classes punish you when doing the stealth combo. Most arent bunkers. Condi isnt meta (hence why condi thief was such an upset). In lower tiers, people use stealth, because the thieves are bad and dont know its bad, and the enemies are bad and dont punish it. In high level, they do not ever use stealth mid-combat.

Hence they stealth up and use the Shadow Embrace trait

Incorrect. They do not stealth up, and shadows embrace is used exclusively for concealing restoration. As I have explained, both of these are undeniable facts. You can look at all of Sindreners games, you will see he does not ever stealth up mid-combat. For this exact same reason. And he still uses Shadows Embrace. Because its still better than hidden thief. Is the fact that these are undeniable facts finally clear to you? Because I would like to not have to repeat myself just because you want to believe that thieves use in-combat stealth, despite it being undeniable fact that they do not.

First of all thieves have Dash also , which is free if they are going to escape .

Dash alone wont get you far. You need shortbow.

And secondary you should watch the Tournament stream , you might take some ideas about the tricks on stealthing in-game .Or meet me ingame

So youre gonna make me repeat myself. In the combat, they didnt use stealth mid-combat. Full stop. They did not use it. Well, other than the exact one exception I have already listed and wont repeat. I dont need "ideas to stealth mid-combat", because unlike you, I know that its bad, and that good thieves dont use it. Well, not that I need it, I dont play thief.

If in lower levels , the people dont know how to punish a person stealthing , while in higher tiers people using D/P combo to stealth in combat . So the premish that people avoiding stealth , its no true :)

That is a lie. In higher tiers people
NEVER
stealth mid-combat. Let me repeat myself so that it gets through to you finally. They.
Never
. Stealth. Mid. Combat. Again, just take a look at Sindrener. If you watch his videos and keep track, you will find that in the vast majority of games he plays, he stealths mid-combat exactly
0
times. Thats right, not at all. In
rare
games he stealths once. Maybe twice. In
NO
game whatsoever does he stealth mid-combat regularly. So, the premise that people avoid stealth is absolutely true, despite your insistence to disgregard the truth.

450 yards , 0 cost , vs 600 yards half resources , well there is no contest on which to chooseIf you add them up , well you have more mobility that Vanilia i believe .

Shortbow is 900 units, not 600. It also is much faster than Dash. There is indeed no contest on which to choose, the answer is Shortbow 5,
always
.

The thieves used ingame combat to survive , you should watch the Tournaments , rather than go in circles .

I did watch it. They didnt. They never used in-combat stealth to survive, because if would achieve the exact opposite. It would ensure their death.

Its ok , if you don't know some things , you don't to insist something that is not true . People are using stealth in high and low tiers . Its not underpowered beyond redemption as you are saying . You haven't simply don't know some high level tricks

It is ok if I dont know somethings. This is not one of them. I know it. You clearly do not, yet try to talk as if you have the faintest clue. People do not use in-combat stealth in high tiers (they do use out of combat stealth). Full stop. This is undeniable fact. You can deny this if you want, but know that it doesnt make the truth less true. It just makes you no different from a flat earther. So if you deny it once more despite the fact that its true, I will assume you indeed are one, and disregard you. It is underpowered, hence why its not used.

But in the vain hope that this will finally get through to you, answer me this. If in-combat stealth is so great. If its supposedly used in higher tiers. How comes Sindrener, the best thief in the game (not that there is much competition nowadays)
NEVER
uses it. Unless you can answer that question you need to accept that the premise, and your belief that stealth is good, is wrong. Oh and to save you the trouble, you cant answer it. The premise and your belief are just wrong.

I am sorry again , but you are wrong . You should give it a chance and see the Tournament .

I am not. I did watch it. I saw that you simply lied.

The majority of the classes and in the Meta are Bunkers , they don't have the firepower to 1-shot you in stealth .

They are not. This too is a lie.

Heh .. even you had said that in lower tier people don't know how to counter it . Give it a try , just watch the tournament or some youtube video about tricks of stealth

I did. The number 1 trick about stealth every thief learns is "never use stealth mid-combat". You should learn that too. And I see you avoided the Sindrener Question. Realising you have no answer? Of course you dont. Youre wrong, but clearly unwilling to accept it. But the fact that in-combat stealth is bad and never used by the highest tier players is undeniable and irrefutable. So lets leave it at that. That is fact, you deny that fact, making you no different from someone denying that the earth is round (or rather an ellipsoid).

I am sorry , but you really have to see that Thiefs use the in-combat stealth in those Tournaments .

I cant see what isnt there. Unless you call "exiting the fight, getting outside of the enemy range, and then stealthing up" in-combat stealth. Which it is not.

We are started as noobs , but we got better with watching others

Something you should take to heart. You should watch good thieves. See how they dont use in-combat stealth. You could learn a lot from that.

Give it a try .Other people found a way to use stealth as a tactic , dont be afraid to improve yourself

They didnt. What people found is that out of combat stealth is great. But for in-combat, they found that the best tactic is to
NEVER
use it. The ultimate improvement any thief can obtain is to stop using stealth mid-combat like a complete idiot. Hence why, as I said, Sindrener doesnt ever use it. And once again you ignore the Sindrener question. At this point I have to assume that youre either trolling, or so invested in the lie you want to believe that the truth will never get through to you. Doesnt matter. The fact that in-combat stealth is bad and never used by high tier thieves is undeniable. People can check it themselves by watching Sindrener. Your refusal to accept the truth has no relevance.

I mean , using Black Powder +Heartseeker after they hit the enemy and they are near him and try to escape , it doesnt sound as out of combat .

Correct. They didnt do that.

You should watch the tournament , it will resolve and improve somewhat your skills .

I did. I saw that you lied. Hence why I called you out on it.

Btw : which streamer said ''never use stealth mid-combat'' ?Sindrener ?Is he the one currupting the youth , with his sexy body ?

None of them say it. Because they assume their viewers are good enough to understand themselves why in-combat stealth is bad. However, what they dont say, they show. As I said. Take any Sindrener video. See how often he stealths in-combat during the game. The answer is almost always
0
, rarely 1,
never
regularly. If in-combat stealth is so great, why is it that he never uses it? Oh I know the answer. Its not great. Its awful. And he doesnt use it because its awful.

But Im getting tired of repeating the same thing over and over, hoping that you accept the truth at any point. So I will leave it off here. Youre free to deny the undeniable truth that in-combat stealth is bad and not used by good thief players. Please, do use in-combat stealth. Your enemies will be very happy. And maybe Ill get lucky and have you as my enemy so I can abuse the fact that youre not good enough to understand why in-combat stealth is so useless.

I am sorry , but you have to watch the stream , even the team with those 2x thieves that went far + mid .If none said that ''never use stealth mid-combat'' and many have used in the tournaments , maybe ...just maybe you are immagining things and created your own false theory that people should not stealth ?

Just PM me ingame . I might not be Sind , but i can help you as hard i can

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UNOwen.7132

UNOwen.7132

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@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the
, for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)

It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.

The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleanceI beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources

They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.

If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .Even on Vallun video a while back

Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.

It behaves like Cloack And Dagger

If you cloak and Dagger when youre already stealthed you also get revealed.

Mug its on Deadly spec .And we are talking about meta builds

There is just redundant. Why would you want stealth on steal? You steal backstab when engaging. Youre not gonna steal for stealth mid-combat, and out of combat you have stealth anyway.

You cannot remove a clutch Burn , because they are overbearing conditions. So 1x condtion removal is worthless .

Hardly. Shadows Embrace is nice in that it only removes
damaging
conditions. So if they have burn cripple and so on, you remove the burn. Even 1 condi cleanse is quite valuable, especially on a class that generally lacks them.

I believe that Thief actually use stealth to benefit from it much more

Not really. If you try to stealth mid-combat, you just get hit for a ton more damage than you would remove from the 1 condi cleanse. Youre also not gonna be able to just stay in stealth and wait for another tick, you die before that. Its legitimately just for the healing skill.

Rather than wasting 9 resources on Heartseeker + Powder and then steal , you can instead simply Steal without a cost and gain stealth , also reduce the Shadowsteap from 50>40 sec and Blinding Powder 40>32 sec

Youre going to "waste" those 9 resources anyway, because you want to stack up Leeching Venoms, and you want to engage on them without them ever knowing you were there. Oh and since you use steal on the opening burst, that also means you wont be able to use it later. Reducing the CD of Shadowstep is nice, but not significant enough. You dont use Blinding Powder right now anyway.

Burns can be re-applied , so remove one is kinda worthless . If Thieves stealth more (which i believe they do) they benefit from it much more . The stealth from the healing spell lasts 2 sec (1s from PvP + Melds) , you will only benefit from 1 condtion removal from the start and not a second

They can be, but its still great. They stack the burst on you, and you negate it. And then you run away, so they cant just keep reapplying it. Thats why its great. Thieves do
NOT
stealth more. Because its actively suicidal and just about the only way a thief can get himself killed. It also doesnt benefit more at all. Youre not gonna survive waiting 3 seconds for the second condi removal. And yes, you only get the 1 condi removal at the start. Thats how the trait works.

Yeah you are going to waste 9 resources and stealth for 3 sec , or waste those 9 resources and use Hidden Thief for 6 sec stealth . Reggardles of what stealth method you choose the Leeching Venoms poison will still come up .

And in that case, you burn the steal before you can use it to engage. A complete waste. Both of a trait, and of steal. A terrible idea.

If you use the 20 sec heal that the trait does offer stealth in combat , is a defensive option that most thieves do . Its not suicidal , its called ''tactical get the hell away'' . And still Shadow Embrace is kinda worthless for a 2 sec stealth only . Maybe the majority of the stealth + streamers have a different tactics and use itmore than us ?

Stealth in combat is not a defensive option. Its suicidal. Here is what happens. You plop down a smoke field, try to heartseeker and whoops, your opponent decided to abuse the fact that youre stuck in 1.25 seconds worth of animation, threw some damage youre way, and youre suddenly downed. Why, that doesnt seem useful at all. Thats why you dont do it. Its why top tier streamers dont use it. And no, shadows embrace is still good for Concealing Restoration. Youre right, its not terribly much, but the alternatives are both
worse
. Merciful Ambush doesnt come into play often enough, and Hidden Thief is just not useful.

Rather than having 1 condition removal every 20 sec (on heal>stealth) . Its better to have :

I dont know why you think repeating the same wrong thing maakes it true. No, Hidden Thief is
much
worse. End of story.

But in the other hand if poeple use stealth a lot more , like Vallun it makes sense that they benefit from it more

He doesnt. Look at Vallun. Look at Sindrener. See how often they use in-combat stealth. Unless its to finish off a target (usually when theyre 3 or 4v1) the answer is
never
. And in that situation, shadows embrace isnt doing anything.

Concealing Restoration is more suicidal , because you must wait before the channel ends and then you stealth .

Completely, utterly 100% wrong. When you use channeled vigor, you regain health. You still might take damage, but youre not even locked in an animation, you can move. Its 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times less suicidal.

While doing Black Powder offer some Blind and the Heartseeker some mobility (just like Dash)

You dont get the blind unless you target an enemy then drop targetting, which is clunky. And the mobility doesnt help you because your opponent knows exactly where you will move. Neither of those will save you from the grenade barrage Im aiming at you that will down you instantly. Which is why
EVERY
good thief avoids in-combat stealth. Please, for future reference, dont talk about thief if you dont know thief.

No i am sorry , but you are kinda wrong here .

I am absolutely correct. You are the one who is wrong.

If the majority of the streamers + metabattle have that traits ,it mean that they stealth more and benefit from that trait . Otherwise they would take that Hidden Thief .

Wrong. Hidden Thief is worse. Even if you just use concealing restoration (Which yes, is what they do), it is so much worse. But if you dont believe me, just go ahead and watch Sindrener. He is using Shadows Embrace. See how often he goes for in-combat stealth (Or let me spoil you: Almost never).

They know more than you and me .You could look at the Vallun Video , where he stealth and use Dash to get away from danger . If you some problems with stealthing up , we can meet inside and give you some tips

They do. Thats why they
DONT
stealth mid-combat. They know its suicidal and the worst thing a thief can do by far. Watch
most recent games on sinds youtube channel. Pop Quiz: During the entire 15 minute match, how many times does he stealth mid combat? The answer is
once
. Against a prot holo that cant punish him. Didnt clear any condis doing it though. And still he runs shadows embrace. Why? Because its much better than hidden thief, even if you just use concealing restoration like the good thieves do. Why? Well I already explained.

I saw multiply thieves from the tournament and Vallun use stealth .

Out of combat stealth. Yes. In-combat stealth? No. Well, other than maybe the condi thieves using Shadow Refuge to immediately leave stealth and just proc shadow bolts on the stealth attack. That appears to be how it was used.

And Sind uses the Embrace trait vs heavy condition opponents , while the enemy waste aoes , he hides and uses the trait to cleanse conditions

No, he uses them against
all
opponents. He does not do what you describe
EVER
. Because that doesnt work. You do not stealth mid-combat (unless its to finish off an outnumbered enemy, maybe, and
maybe
if youre facing a low-damage bunker and wanna prepare to switch targets to someone a bit further way. But even in that case, it makes more sense to get out first, then stealth). If you stealth mid-combat, you die unless your opponent is playing a low-damage bunker. And even then you sometimes die. Thats why you dont use it.

I am hopping to see a Grenade Barrage Enginner on the Tournaments on July . Maybe we can see that spec to be used vs stealth Mesmer also

Why? Grenade Engineer isnt particularly good. Its just an example because I play it. Any class can punish thief for trying to stealth mid-combat. Thats why every single good thief doesnt use mid-combat stealth. And yet they use Shadows Embrace, because its still much better. It is that simple. Accept the fact, or be quiet.

Ehm ...other specs too exept the 2x French . The majority of the enemies are Bunkers and while you having the damage reduction from the Daredevil traits , they cannot huke you high enought

And they too didnt use it, other than
exactly
with shadow Refuge and dropping it
exactly
instantly just to get the stealth attack with the shadow projectile finishers. The damage reduction traits wont be active when you try to stealth up (you move out of range and the enemy wont be weak). Right now even bunkers can do a lot of damage, and far from everyone is playing bunkers. You will get nuked.

I thought for a sec that Grenade Engineer , was death incarnate with all these '''if you stealth , you will get nuked by it'' .In lower levels everything works and everything punish each other

The point is that
even
Grenade Engineer can nuke you when you try to stealth. Any build can. Its funny that you bring up lower levels, because its
ONLY
in lower levels that thieves use stealth mid-combat. Because they arent good, and their opponents arent good. In high level, you will almost never see a thief use stealth mid-combat. If they want to run, they shortbow 5. If they want to fight, they use shadow shot, heartseekr or swap to shortbow. But never, ever, under any circumstances, do they go for stealth. And still Shadows Embrace is run. Because its better.

There where other teams that they used D/P and use it to stealth . For example there was a team with 2 Thieves that made it to the top 8 and lost from the 1 French , that their job was to go far and take turns attacking/stealthing up to win matches vs Mesmers + other other Bunkers .

They use
out of combat
stealth. Yes, that is true. However, there Shadows Embrace doesnt matter. Youre out of combat. You didnt have any conditions. They did not use in-combat stealth at all.

At the final 6 , Cheese vs 55rank i believe you could see some stealth ingame action too . If you are near the target >hit> try to stealth up the damage reduction traits will be working fine

Out of combat stealth, yes. In combat stealth, no. And no, they wont, your heartseeker will move you too far away. Sorry.

I hope we can see the Grenade Enginner in the tournament , its sound preety fun for 1-shot aoes burst

It doesnt oneshot anything but the squishy thieves that already took damage from sticking in a fight. Again, you fixate on the wrong things. But let me just reiterate once more. Good thieves do not use in-combat stealth. If they are activaly fighting an enemy, under (almost) no circumstances will they ever stealth, because its suicidal. They will ONLY stealth out of combat. As a result, Shadows Embrace is ONLY used for concealing restoration, a single condi clear on your healing skill. And its still used over hidden thief, because its much better than hidden thief, even then.

Those 2 D/P thiefs took turns . If some1 was low on hp he would stealth up in combta , heal and then come back . The same tactic they used in mid in teamfights .

Im gonna assume that he did not stealth up in combat, but out of combat. A quick look over the game I assume youre describing confirms that assumption. They used out of combat stealth, not in-combat stealth.

Heartseeker is not effected by out of combat stealth or in combat stealth .It travels the same distance , just like Dash . Its ok if you have some questions about how things works

I know, youre missing the point. The point is that when you use in-combat stealth, youre locked into your animation. Your heartseeker will take you a set distance away in a set direction. The enemy will punish and down you. Hence why good thieves do not ever use in-combat stealth. Did you finally understand that? Yes? Good. Lets leave the fact that thief doesnt use in-combat stealth as that, as well as the fact that shadows embrace is used only for concealing restoration and is still better than hidden thief.

Could you post some pic with the burst of Barrage ? So i wont underestimate it on my que ?

Too much effort, cant be bothered.

I am sure 100% that that team with the those 2x Thieves that made it to the final 8 , they used Heartseeker+ Powder for stealth , when they where 50% hp . While the other maintain the pressure . Or like other thieves from other teams .

The only one I saw did not use it in-combat. When they wanted to get out, they did like any good thief does, and shortbow 5 out. If they tried to BP + Heartseeker for stealth when they were at 50%, they wouldve just died.

Not all classes punish you while you do the stealth combo , and the 90% of the majority are Bunkers . In lower tiers where everyone is wearing Berseker amulets , they might punish the thief for trying to stealth up . But the current meta is Bunker-Condition

Incorrect. All classes punish you when doing the stealth combo. Most arent bunkers. Condi isnt meta (hence why condi thief was such an upset). In lower tiers, people use stealth, because the thieves are bad and dont know its bad, and the enemies are bad and dont punish it. In high level, they do not ever use stealth mid-combat.

Hence they stealth up and use the Shadow Embrace trait

Incorrect. They do not stealth up, and shadows embrace is used exclusively for concealing restoration. As I have explained, both of these are undeniable facts. You can look at all of Sindreners games, you will see he does not ever stealth up mid-combat. For this exact same reason. And he still uses Shadows Embrace. Because its still better than hidden thief. Is the fact that these are undeniable facts finally clear to you? Because I would like to not have to repeat myself just because you want to believe that thieves use in-combat stealth, despite it being undeniable fact that they do not.

First of all thieves have Dash also , which is free if they are going to escape .

Dash alone wont get you far. You need shortbow.

And secondary you should watch the Tournament stream , you might take some ideas about the tricks on stealthing in-game .Or meet me ingame

So youre gonna make me repeat myself. In the combat, they didnt use stealth mid-combat. Full stop. They did not use it. Well, other than the exact one exception I have already listed and wont repeat. I dont need "ideas to stealth mid-combat", because unlike you, I know that its bad, and that good thieves dont use it. Well, not that I need it, I dont play thief.

If in lower levels , the people dont know how to punish a person stealthing , while in higher tiers people using D/P combo to stealth in combat . So the premish that people avoiding stealth , its no true :)

That is a lie. In higher tiers people
NEVER
stealth mid-combat. Let me repeat myself so that it gets through to you finally. They.
Never
. Stealth. Mid. Combat. Again, just take a look at Sindrener. If you watch his videos and keep track, you will find that in the vast majority of games he plays, he stealths mid-combat exactly
0
times. Thats right, not at all. In
rare
games he stealths once. Maybe twice. In
NO
game whatsoever does he stealth mid-combat regularly. So, the premise that people avoid stealth is absolutely true, despite your insistence to disgregard the truth.

450 yards , 0 cost , vs 600 yards half resources , well there is no contest on which to chooseIf you add them up , well you have more mobility that Vanilia i believe .

Shortbow is 900 units, not 600. It also is much faster than Dash. There is indeed no contest on which to choose, the answer is Shortbow 5,
always
.

The thieves used ingame combat to survive , you should watch the Tournaments , rather than go in circles .

I did watch it. They didnt. They never used in-combat stealth to survive, because if would achieve the exact opposite. It would ensure their death.

Its ok , if you don't know some things , you don't to insist something that is not true . People are using stealth in high and low tiers . Its not underpowered beyond redemption as you are saying . You haven't simply don't know some high level tricks

It is ok if I dont know somethings. This is not one of them. I know it. You clearly do not, yet try to talk as if you have the faintest clue. People do not use in-combat stealth in high tiers (they do use out of combat stealth). Full stop. This is undeniable fact. You can deny this if you want, but know that it doesnt make the truth less true. It just makes you no different from a flat earther. So if you deny it once more despite the fact that its true, I will assume you indeed are one, and disregard you. It is underpowered, hence why its not used.

But in the vain hope that this will finally get through to you, answer me this. If in-combat stealth is so great. If its supposedly used in higher tiers. How comes Sindrener, the best thief in the game (not that there is much competition nowadays)
NEVER
uses it. Unless you can answer that question you need to accept that the premise, and your belief that stealth is good, is wrong. Oh and to save you the trouble, you cant answer it. The premise and your belief are just wrong.

I am sorry again , but you are wrong . You should give it a chance and see the Tournament .

I am not. I did watch it. I saw that you simply lied.

The majority of the classes and in the Meta are Bunkers , they don't have the firepower to 1-shot you in stealth .

They are not. This too is a lie.

Heh .. even you had said that in lower tier people don't know how to counter it . Give it a try , just watch the tournament or some youtube video about tricks of stealth

I did. The number 1 trick about stealth every thief learns is "never use stealth mid-combat". You should learn that too. And I see you avoided the Sindrener Question. Realising you have no answer? Of course you dont. Youre wrong, but clearly unwilling to accept it. But the fact that in-combat stealth is bad and never used by the highest tier players is undeniable and irrefutable. So lets leave it at that. That is fact, you deny that fact, making you no different from someone denying that the earth is round (or rather an ellipsoid).

I am sorry , but you really have to see that Thiefs use the in-combat stealth in those Tournaments .

I cant see what isnt there. Unless you call "exiting the fight, getting outside of the enemy range, and then stealthing up" in-combat stealth. Which it is not.

We are started as noobs , but we got better with watching others

Something you should take to heart. You should watch good thieves. See how they dont use in-combat stealth. You could learn a lot from that.

Give it a try .Other people found a way to use stealth as a tactic , dont be afraid to improve yourself

They didnt. What people found is that out of combat stealth is great. But for in-combat, they found that the best tactic is to
NEVER
use it. The ultimate improvement any thief can obtain is to stop using stealth mid-combat like a complete idiot. Hence why, as I said, Sindrener doesnt ever use it. And once again you ignore the Sindrener question. At this point I have to assume that youre either trolling, or so invested in the lie you want to believe that the truth will never get through to you. Doesnt matter. The fact that in-combat stealth is bad and never used by high tier thieves is undeniable. People can check it themselves by watching Sindrener. Your refusal to accept the truth has no relevance.

I mean , using Black Powder +Heartseeker after they hit the enemy and they are near him and try to escape , it doesnt sound as out of combat .

Correct. They didnt do that.

You should watch the tournament , it will resolve and improve somewhat your skills .

I did. I saw that you lied. Hence why I called you out on it.

Btw : which streamer said ''never use stealth mid-combat'' ?Sindrener ?Is he the one currupting the youth , with his sexy body ?

None of them say it. Because they assume their viewers are good enough to understand themselves why in-combat stealth is bad. However, what they dont say, they show. As I said. Take any Sindrener video. See how often he stealths in-combat during the game. The answer is almost always
0
, rarely 1,
never
regularly. If in-combat stealth is so great, why is it that he never uses it? Oh I know the answer. Its not great. Its awful. And he doesnt use it because its awful.

But Im getting tired of repeating the same thing over and over, hoping that you accept the truth at any point. So I will leave it off here. Youre free to deny the undeniable truth that in-combat stealth is bad and not used by good thief players. Please, do use in-combat stealth. Your enemies will be very happy. And maybe Ill get lucky and have you as my enemy so I can abuse the fact that youre not good enough to understand why in-combat stealth is so useless.

I am sorry , but you have to watch the stream , even the team with those 2x thieves that went far + mid .

I did. They still didnt do it.

If none said that ''never use stealth mid-combat'' and many have used in the tournaments , maybe ...just maybe you are immagining things and created your own false theory that people should not stealth ?

Oh plenty of people have said it. But its old knowledge. Not worth repeating if weve known it for 4+ years, is it? Just like you dont say "dodge the eviscerate". Or "use shadowstep for safe stomping". Almost none have used it in tournaments, and the few that did, didnt get far. And you still refuse to answer why Sindrener isnt using in-combat stealth. Maybe youre starting to doubt your lie. Keep thinking about that fact. If its so good, why does he not use it? In fact, Vallun doesnt either. None of the best thieves ever use in-combat stealth. Why?

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Captain Kuro.8937

Captain Kuro.8937

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the
, for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)

It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.

The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleanceI beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources

They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.

If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .Even on Vallun video a while back

Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.

It behaves like Cloack And Dagger

If you cloak and Dagger when youre already stealthed you also get revealed.

Mug its on Deadly spec .And we are talking about meta builds

There is just redundant. Why would you want stealth on steal? You steal backstab when engaging. Youre not gonna steal for stealth mid-combat, and out of combat you have stealth anyway.

You cannot remove a clutch Burn , because they are overbearing conditions. So 1x condtion removal is worthless .

Hardly. Shadows Embrace is nice in that it only removes
damaging
conditions. So if they have burn cripple and so on, you remove the burn. Even 1 condi cleanse is quite valuable, especially on a class that generally lacks them.

I believe that Thief actually use stealth to benefit from it much more

Not really. If you try to stealth mid-combat, you just get hit for a ton more damage than you would remove from the 1 condi cleanse. Youre also not gonna be able to just stay in stealth and wait for another tick, you die before that. Its legitimately just for the healing skill.

Rather than wasting 9 resources on Heartseeker + Powder and then steal , you can instead simply Steal without a cost and gain stealth , also reduce the Shadowsteap from 50>40 sec and Blinding Powder 40>32 sec

Youre going to "waste" those 9 resources anyway, because you want to stack up Leeching Venoms, and you want to engage on them without them ever knowing you were there. Oh and since you use steal on the opening burst, that also means you wont be able to use it later. Reducing the CD of Shadowstep is nice, but not significant enough. You dont use Blinding Powder right now anyway.

Burns can be re-applied , so remove one is kinda worthless . If Thieves stealth more (which i believe they do) they benefit from it much more . The stealth from the healing spell lasts 2 sec (1s from PvP + Melds) , you will only benefit from 1 condtion removal from the start and not a second

They can be, but its still great. They stack the burst on you, and you negate it. And then you run away, so they cant just keep reapplying it. Thats why its great. Thieves do
NOT
stealth more. Because its actively suicidal and just about the only way a thief can get himself killed. It also doesnt benefit more at all. Youre not gonna survive waiting 3 seconds for the second condi removal. And yes, you only get the 1 condi removal at the start. Thats how the trait works.

Yeah you are going to waste 9 resources and stealth for 3 sec , or waste those 9 resources and use Hidden Thief for 6 sec stealth . Reggardles of what stealth method you choose the Leeching Venoms poison will still come up .

And in that case, you burn the steal before you can use it to engage. A complete waste. Both of a trait, and of steal. A terrible idea.

If you use the 20 sec heal that the trait does offer stealth in combat , is a defensive option that most thieves do . Its not suicidal , its called ''tactical get the hell away'' . And still Shadow Embrace is kinda worthless for a 2 sec stealth only . Maybe the majority of the stealth + streamers have a different tactics and use itmore than us ?

Stealth in combat is not a defensive option. Its suicidal. Here is what happens. You plop down a smoke field, try to heartseeker and whoops, your opponent decided to abuse the fact that youre stuck in 1.25 seconds worth of animation, threw some damage youre way, and youre suddenly downed. Why, that doesnt seem useful at all. Thats why you dont do it. Its why top tier streamers dont use it. And no, shadows embrace is still good for Concealing Restoration. Youre right, its not terribly much, but the alternatives are both
worse
. Merciful Ambush doesnt come into play often enough, and Hidden Thief is just not useful.

Rather than having 1 condition removal every 20 sec (on heal>stealth) . Its better to have :

I dont know why you think repeating the same wrong thing maakes it true. No, Hidden Thief is
much
worse. End of story.

But in the other hand if poeple use stealth a lot more , like Vallun it makes sense that they benefit from it more

He doesnt. Look at Vallun. Look at Sindrener. See how often they use in-combat stealth. Unless its to finish off a target (usually when theyre 3 or 4v1) the answer is
never
. And in that situation, shadows embrace isnt doing anything.

Concealing Restoration is more suicidal , because you must wait before the channel ends and then you stealth .

Completely, utterly 100% wrong. When you use channeled vigor, you regain health. You still might take damage, but youre not even locked in an animation, you can move. Its 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times less suicidal.

While doing Black Powder offer some Blind and the Heartseeker some mobility (just like Dash)

You dont get the blind unless you target an enemy then drop targetting, which is clunky. And the mobility doesnt help you because your opponent knows exactly where you will move. Neither of those will save you from the grenade barrage Im aiming at you that will down you instantly. Which is why
EVERY
good thief avoids in-combat stealth. Please, for future reference, dont talk about thief if you dont know thief.

No i am sorry , but you are kinda wrong here .

I am absolutely correct. You are the one who is wrong.

If the majority of the streamers + metabattle have that traits ,it mean that they stealth more and benefit from that trait . Otherwise they would take that Hidden Thief .

Wrong. Hidden Thief is worse. Even if you just use concealing restoration (Which yes, is what they do), it is so much worse. But if you dont believe me, just go ahead and watch Sindrener. He is using Shadows Embrace. See how often he goes for in-combat stealth (Or let me spoil you: Almost never).

They know more than you and me .You could look at the Vallun Video , where he stealth and use Dash to get away from danger . If you some problems with stealthing up , we can meet inside and give you some tips

They do. Thats why they
DONT
stealth mid-combat. They know its suicidal and the worst thing a thief can do by far. Watch
most recent games on sinds youtube channel. Pop Quiz: During the entire 15 minute match, how many times does he stealth mid combat? The answer is
once
. Against a prot holo that cant punish him. Didnt clear any condis doing it though. And still he runs shadows embrace. Why? Because its much better than hidden thief, even if you just use concealing restoration like the good thieves do. Why? Well I already explained.

I saw multiply thieves from the tournament and Vallun use stealth .

Out of combat stealth. Yes. In-combat stealth? No. Well, other than maybe the condi thieves using Shadow Refuge to immediately leave stealth and just proc shadow bolts on the stealth attack. That appears to be how it was used.

And Sind uses the Embrace trait vs heavy condition opponents , while the enemy waste aoes , he hides and uses the trait to cleanse conditions

No, he uses them against
all
opponents. He does not do what you describe
EVER
. Because that doesnt work. You do not stealth mid-combat (unless its to finish off an outnumbered enemy, maybe, and
maybe
if youre facing a low-damage bunker and wanna prepare to switch targets to someone a bit further way. But even in that case, it makes more sense to get out first, then stealth). If you stealth mid-combat, you die unless your opponent is playing a low-damage bunker. And even then you sometimes die. Thats why you dont use it.

I am hopping to see a Grenade Barrage Enginner on the Tournaments on July . Maybe we can see that spec to be used vs stealth Mesmer also

Why? Grenade Engineer isnt particularly good. Its just an example because I play it. Any class can punish thief for trying to stealth mid-combat. Thats why every single good thief doesnt use mid-combat stealth. And yet they use Shadows Embrace, because its still much better. It is that simple. Accept the fact, or be quiet.

Ehm ...other specs too exept the 2x French . The majority of the enemies are Bunkers and while you having the damage reduction from the Daredevil traits , they cannot huke you high enought

And they too didnt use it, other than
exactly
with shadow Refuge and dropping it
exactly
instantly just to get the stealth attack with the shadow projectile finishers. The damage reduction traits wont be active when you try to stealth up (you move out of range and the enemy wont be weak). Right now even bunkers can do a lot of damage, and far from everyone is playing bunkers. You will get nuked.

I thought for a sec that Grenade Engineer , was death incarnate with all these '''if you stealth , you will get nuked by it'' .In lower levels everything works and everything punish each other

The point is that
even
Grenade Engineer can nuke you when you try to stealth. Any build can. Its funny that you bring up lower levels, because its
ONLY
in lower levels that thieves use stealth mid-combat. Because they arent good, and their opponents arent good. In high level, you will almost never see a thief use stealth mid-combat. If they want to run, they shortbow 5. If they want to fight, they use shadow shot, heartseekr or swap to shortbow. But never, ever, under any circumstances, do they go for stealth. And still Shadows Embrace is run. Because its better.

There where other teams that they used D/P and use it to stealth . For example there was a team with 2 Thieves that made it to the top 8 and lost from the 1 French , that their job was to go far and take turns attacking/stealthing up to win matches vs Mesmers + other other Bunkers .

They use
out of combat
stealth. Yes, that is true. However, there Shadows Embrace doesnt matter. Youre out of combat. You didnt have any conditions. They did not use in-combat stealth at all.

At the final 6 , Cheese vs 55rank i believe you could see some stealth ingame action too . If you are near the target >hit> try to stealth up the damage reduction traits will be working fine

Out of combat stealth, yes. In combat stealth, no. And no, they wont, your heartseeker will move you too far away. Sorry.

I hope we can see the Grenade Enginner in the tournament , its sound preety fun for 1-shot aoes burst

It doesnt oneshot anything but the squishy thieves that already took damage from sticking in a fight. Again, you fixate on the wrong things. But let me just reiterate once more. Good thieves do not use in-combat stealth. If they are activaly fighting an enemy, under (almost) no circumstances will they ever stealth, because its suicidal. They will ONLY stealth out of combat. As a result, Shadows Embrace is ONLY used for concealing restoration, a single condi clear on your healing skill. And its still used over hidden thief, because its much better than hidden thief, even then.

Those 2 D/P thiefs took turns . If some1 was low on hp he would stealth up in combta , heal and then come back . The same tactic they used in mid in teamfights .

Im gonna assume that he did not stealth up in combat, but out of combat. A quick look over the game I assume youre describing confirms that assumption. They used out of combat stealth, not in-combat stealth.

Heartseeker is not effected by out of combat stealth or in combat stealth .It travels the same distance , just like Dash . Its ok if you have some questions about how things works

I know, youre missing the point. The point is that when you use in-combat stealth, youre locked into your animation. Your heartseeker will take you a set distance away in a set direction. The enemy will punish and down you. Hence why good thieves do not ever use in-combat stealth. Did you finally understand that? Yes? Good. Lets leave the fact that thief doesnt use in-combat stealth as that, as well as the fact that shadows embrace is used only for concealing restoration and is still better than hidden thief.

Could you post some pic with the burst of Barrage ? So i wont underestimate it on my que ?

Too much effort, cant be bothered.

I am sure 100% that that team with the those 2x Thieves that made it to the final 8 , they used Heartseeker+ Powder for stealth , when they where 50% hp . While the other maintain the pressure . Or like other thieves from other teams .

The only one I saw did not use it in-combat. When they wanted to get out, they did like any good thief does, and shortbow 5 out. If they tried to BP + Heartseeker for stealth when they were at 50%, they wouldve just died.

Not all classes punish you while you do the stealth combo , and the 90% of the majority are Bunkers . In lower tiers where everyone is wearing Berseker amulets , they might punish the thief for trying to stealth up . But the current meta is Bunker-Condition

Incorrect. All classes punish you when doing the stealth combo. Most arent bunkers. Condi isnt meta (hence why condi thief was such an upset). In lower tiers, people use stealth, because the thieves are bad and dont know its bad, and the enemies are bad and dont punish it. In high level, they do not ever use stealth mid-combat.

Hence they stealth up and use the Shadow Embrace trait

Incorrect. They do not stealth up, and shadows embrace is used exclusively for concealing restoration. As I have explained, both of these are undeniable facts. You can look at all of Sindreners games, you will see he does not ever stealth up mid-combat. For this exact same reason. And he still uses Shadows Embrace. Because its still better than hidden thief. Is the fact that these are undeniable facts finally clear to you? Because I would like to not have to repeat myself just because you want to believe that thieves use in-combat stealth, despite it being undeniable fact that they do not.

First of all thieves have Dash also , which is free if they are going to escape .

Dash alone wont get you far. You need shortbow.

And secondary you should watch the Tournament stream , you might take some ideas about the tricks on stealthing in-game .Or meet me ingame

So youre gonna make me repeat myself. In the combat, they didnt use stealth mid-combat. Full stop. They did not use it. Well, other than the exact one exception I have already listed and wont repeat. I dont need "ideas to stealth mid-combat", because unlike you, I know that its bad, and that good thieves dont use it. Well, not that I need it, I dont play thief.

If in lower levels , the people dont know how to punish a person stealthing , while in higher tiers people using D/P combo to stealth in combat . So the premish that people avoiding stealth , its no true :)

That is a lie. In higher tiers people
NEVER
stealth mid-combat. Let me repeat myself so that it gets through to you finally. They.
Never
. Stealth. Mid. Combat. Again, just take a look at Sindrener. If you watch his videos and keep track, you will find that in the vast majority of games he plays, he stealths mid-combat exactly
0
times. Thats right, not at all. In
rare
games he stealths once. Maybe twice. In
NO
game whatsoever does he stealth mid-combat regularly. So, the premise that people avoid stealth is absolutely true, despite your insistence to disgregard the truth.

450 yards , 0 cost , vs 600 yards half resources , well there is no contest on which to chooseIf you add them up , well you have more mobility that Vanilia i believe .

Shortbow is 900 units, not 600. It also is much faster than Dash. There is indeed no contest on which to choose, the answer is Shortbow 5,
always
.

The thieves used ingame combat to survive , you should watch the Tournaments , rather than go in circles .

I did watch it. They didnt. They never used in-combat stealth to survive, because if would achieve the exact opposite. It would ensure their death.

Its ok , if you don't know some things , you don't to insist something that is not true . People are using stealth in high and low tiers . Its not underpowered beyond redemption as you are saying . You haven't simply don't know some high level tricks

It is ok if I dont know somethings. This is not one of them. I know it. You clearly do not, yet try to talk as if you have the faintest clue. People do not use in-combat stealth in high tiers (they do use out of combat stealth). Full stop. This is undeniable fact. You can deny this if you want, but know that it doesnt make the truth less true. It just makes you no different from a flat earther. So if you deny it once more despite the fact that its true, I will assume you indeed are one, and disregard you. It is underpowered, hence why its not used.

But in the vain hope that this will finally get through to you, answer me this. If in-combat stealth is so great. If its supposedly used in higher tiers. How comes Sindrener, the best thief in the game (not that there is much competition nowadays)
NEVER
uses it. Unless you can answer that question you need to accept that the premise, and your belief that stealth is good, is wrong. Oh and to save you the trouble, you cant answer it. The premise and your belief are just wrong.

I am sorry again , but you are wrong . You should give it a chance and see the Tournament .

I am not. I did watch it. I saw that you simply lied.

The majority of the classes and in the Meta are Bunkers , they don't have the firepower to 1-shot you in stealth .

They are not. This too is a lie.

Heh .. even you had said that in lower tier people don't know how to counter it . Give it a try , just watch the tournament or some youtube video about tricks of stealth

I did. The number 1 trick about stealth every thief learns is "never use stealth mid-combat". You should learn that too. And I see you avoided the Sindrener Question. Realising you have no answer? Of course you dont. Youre wrong, but clearly unwilling to accept it. But the fact that in-combat stealth is bad and never used by the highest tier players is undeniable and irrefutable. So lets leave it at that. That is fact, you deny that fact, making you no different from someone denying that the earth is round (or rather an ellipsoid).

I am sorry , but you really have to see that Thiefs use the in-combat stealth in those Tournaments .

I cant see what isnt there. Unless you call "exiting the fight, getting outside of the enemy range, and then stealthing up" in-combat stealth. Which it is not.

We are started as noobs , but we got better with watching others

Something you should take to heart. You should watch good thieves. See how they dont use in-combat stealth. You could learn a lot from that.

Give it a try .Other people found a way to use stealth as a tactic , dont be afraid to improve yourself

They didnt. What people found is that out of combat stealth is great. But for in-combat, they found that the best tactic is to
NEVER
use it. The ultimate improvement any thief can obtain is to stop using stealth mid-combat like a complete idiot. Hence why, as I said, Sindrener doesnt ever use it. And once again you ignore the Sindrener question. At this point I have to assume that youre either trolling, or so invested in the lie you want to believe that the truth will never get through to you. Doesnt matter. The fact that in-combat stealth is bad and never used by high tier thieves is undeniable. People can check it themselves by watching Sindrener. Your refusal to accept the truth has no relevance.

I mean , using Black Powder +Heartseeker after they hit the enemy and they are near him and try to escape , it doesnt sound as out of combat .

Correct. They didnt do that.

You should watch the tournament , it will resolve and improve somewhat your skills .

I did. I saw that you lied. Hence why I called you out on it.

Btw : which streamer said ''never use stealth mid-combat'' ?Sindrener ?Is he the one currupting the youth , with his sexy body ?

None of them say it. Because they assume their viewers are good enough to understand themselves why in-combat stealth is bad. However, what they dont say, they show. As I said. Take any Sindrener video. See how often he stealths in-combat during the game. The answer is almost always
0
, rarely 1,
never
regularly. If in-combat stealth is so great, why is it that he never uses it? Oh I know the answer. Its not great. Its awful. And he doesnt use it because its awful.

But Im getting tired of repeating the same thing over and over, hoping that you accept the truth at any point. So I will leave it off here. Youre free to deny the undeniable truth that in-combat stealth is bad and not used by good thief players. Please, do use in-combat stealth. Your enemies will be very happy. And maybe Ill get lucky and have you as my enemy so I can abuse the fact that youre not good enough to understand why in-combat stealth is so useless.

I am sorry , but you have to watch the stream , even the team with those 2x thieves that went far + mid .

I did. They still didnt do it.

If none said that ''never use stealth mid-combat'' and many have used in the tournaments , maybe ...just maybe you are immagining things and created your own false theory that people should not stealth ?

Oh plenty of people have said it. But its old knowledge. Not worth repeating if weve known it for 4+ years, is it? Just like you dont say "dodge the eviscerate". Or "use shadowstep for safe stomping". Almost none have used it in tournaments, and the few that did, didnt get far. And you
still
refuse to answer why Sindrener isnt using in-combat stealth. Maybe youre starting to doubt your lie. Keep thinking about that fact. If its so good, why does he not use it? In fact, Vallun doesnt either. None of the best thieves ever use in-combat stealth.
Why?

See the Tournament , i cannot help you to improve if you cant watch it . Theres some interested mechanics that i am trying to learn for my Mesmer .Which people (plenty as you said) told you ''dont use in-game stealth''? In which thread ?A streamer ? Low lvl players ?

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@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the
, for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)

It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.

The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleanceI beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources

They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.

If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .Even on Vallun video a while back

Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.

It behaves like Cloack And Dagger

If you cloak and Dagger when youre already stealthed you also get revealed.

Mug its on Deadly spec .And we are talking about meta builds

There is just redundant. Why would you want stealth on steal? You steal backstab when engaging. Youre not gonna steal for stealth mid-combat, and out of combat you have stealth anyway.

You cannot remove a clutch Burn , because they are overbearing conditions. So 1x condtion removal is worthless .

Hardly. Shadows Embrace is nice in that it only removes
damaging
conditions. So if they have burn cripple and so on, you remove the burn. Even 1 condi cleanse is quite valuable, especially on a class that generally lacks them.

I believe that Thief actually use stealth to benefit from it much more

Not really. If you try to stealth mid-combat, you just get hit for a ton more damage than you would remove from the 1 condi cleanse. Youre also not gonna be able to just stay in stealth and wait for another tick, you die before that. Its legitimately just for the healing skill.

Rather than wasting 9 resources on Heartseeker + Powder and then steal , you can instead simply Steal without a cost and gain stealth , also reduce the Shadowsteap from 50>40 sec and Blinding Powder 40>32 sec

Youre going to "waste" those 9 resources anyway, because you want to stack up Leeching Venoms, and you want to engage on them without them ever knowing you were there. Oh and since you use steal on the opening burst, that also means you wont be able to use it later. Reducing the CD of Shadowstep is nice, but not significant enough. You dont use Blinding Powder right now anyway.

Burns can be re-applied , so remove one is kinda worthless . If Thieves stealth more (which i believe they do) they benefit from it much more . The stealth from the healing spell lasts 2 sec (1s from PvP + Melds) , you will only benefit from 1 condtion removal from the start and not a second

They can be, but its still great. They stack the burst on you, and you negate it. And then you run away, so they cant just keep reapplying it. Thats why its great. Thieves do
NOT
stealth more. Because its actively suicidal and just about the only way a thief can get himself killed. It also doesnt benefit more at all. Youre not gonna survive waiting 3 seconds for the second condi removal. And yes, you only get the 1 condi removal at the start. Thats how the trait works.

Yeah you are going to waste 9 resources and stealth for 3 sec , or waste those 9 resources and use Hidden Thief for 6 sec stealth . Reggardles of what stealth method you choose the Leeching Venoms poison will still come up .

And in that case, you burn the steal before you can use it to engage. A complete waste. Both of a trait, and of steal. A terrible idea.

If you use the 20 sec heal that the trait does offer stealth in combat , is a defensive option that most thieves do . Its not suicidal , its called ''tactical get the hell away'' . And still Shadow Embrace is kinda worthless for a 2 sec stealth only . Maybe the majority of the stealth + streamers have a different tactics and use itmore than us ?

Stealth in combat is not a defensive option. Its suicidal. Here is what happens. You plop down a smoke field, try to heartseeker and whoops, your opponent decided to abuse the fact that youre stuck in 1.25 seconds worth of animation, threw some damage youre way, and youre suddenly downed. Why, that doesnt seem useful at all. Thats why you dont do it. Its why top tier streamers dont use it. And no, shadows embrace is still good for Concealing Restoration. Youre right, its not terribly much, but the alternatives are both
worse
. Merciful Ambush doesnt come into play often enough, and Hidden Thief is just not useful.

Rather than having 1 condition removal every 20 sec (on heal>stealth) . Its better to have :

I dont know why you think repeating the same wrong thing maakes it true. No, Hidden Thief is
much
worse. End of story.

But in the other hand if poeple use stealth a lot more , like Vallun it makes sense that they benefit from it more

He doesnt. Look at Vallun. Look at Sindrener. See how often they use in-combat stealth. Unless its to finish off a target (usually when theyre 3 or 4v1) the answer is
never
. And in that situation, shadows embrace isnt doing anything.

Concealing Restoration is more suicidal , because you must wait before the channel ends and then you stealth .

Completely, utterly 100% wrong. When you use channeled vigor, you regain health. You still might take damage, but youre not even locked in an animation, you can move. Its 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times less suicidal.

While doing Black Powder offer some Blind and the Heartseeker some mobility (just like Dash)

You dont get the blind unless you target an enemy then drop targetting, which is clunky. And the mobility doesnt help you because your opponent knows exactly where you will move. Neither of those will save you from the grenade barrage Im aiming at you that will down you instantly. Which is why
EVERY
good thief avoids in-combat stealth. Please, for future reference, dont talk about thief if you dont know thief.

No i am sorry , but you are kinda wrong here .

I am absolutely correct. You are the one who is wrong.

If the majority of the streamers + metabattle have that traits ,it mean that they stealth more and benefit from that trait . Otherwise they would take that Hidden Thief .

Wrong. Hidden Thief is worse. Even if you just use concealing restoration (Which yes, is what they do), it is so much worse. But if you dont believe me, just go ahead and watch Sindrener. He is using Shadows Embrace. See how often he goes for in-combat stealth (Or let me spoil you: Almost never).

They know more than you and me .You could look at the Vallun Video , where he stealth and use Dash to get away from danger . If you some problems with stealthing up , we can meet inside and give you some tips

They do. Thats why they
DONT
stealth mid-combat. They know its suicidal and the worst thing a thief can do by far. Watch
most recent games on sinds youtube channel. Pop Quiz: During the entire 15 minute match, how many times does he stealth mid combat? The answer is
once
. Against a prot holo that cant punish him. Didnt clear any condis doing it though. And still he runs shadows embrace. Why? Because its much better than hidden thief, even if you just use concealing restoration like the good thieves do. Why? Well I already explained.

I saw multiply thieves from the tournament and Vallun use stealth .

Out of combat stealth. Yes. In-combat stealth? No. Well, other than maybe the condi thieves using Shadow Refuge to immediately leave stealth and just proc shadow bolts on the stealth attack. That appears to be how it was used.

And Sind uses the Embrace trait vs heavy condition opponents , while the enemy waste aoes , he hides and uses the trait to cleanse conditions

No, he uses them against
all
opponents. He does not do what you describe
EVER
. Because that doesnt work. You do not stealth mid-combat (unless its to finish off an outnumbered enemy, maybe, and
maybe
if youre facing a low-damage bunker and wanna prepare to switch targets to someone a bit further way. But even in that case, it makes more sense to get out first, then stealth). If you stealth mid-combat, you die unless your opponent is playing a low-damage bunker. And even then you sometimes die. Thats why you dont use it.

I am hopping to see a Grenade Barrage Enginner on the Tournaments on July . Maybe we can see that spec to be used vs stealth Mesmer also

Why? Grenade Engineer isnt particularly good. Its just an example because I play it. Any class can punish thief for trying to stealth mid-combat. Thats why every single good thief doesnt use mid-combat stealth. And yet they use Shadows Embrace, because its still much better. It is that simple. Accept the fact, or be quiet.

Ehm ...other specs too exept the 2x French . The majority of the enemies are Bunkers and while you having the damage reduction from the Daredevil traits , they cannot huke you high enought

And they too didnt use it, other than
exactly
with shadow Refuge and dropping it
exactly
instantly just to get the stealth attack with the shadow projectile finishers. The damage reduction traits wont be active when you try to stealth up (you move out of range and the enemy wont be weak). Right now even bunkers can do a lot of damage, and far from everyone is playing bunkers. You will get nuked.

I thought for a sec that Grenade Engineer , was death incarnate with all these '''if you stealth , you will get nuked by it'' .In lower levels everything works and everything punish each other

The point is that
even
Grenade Engineer can nuke you when you try to stealth. Any build can. Its funny that you bring up lower levels, because its
ONLY
in lower levels that thieves use stealth mid-combat. Because they arent good, and their opponents arent good. In high level, you will almost never see a thief use stealth mid-combat. If they want to run, they shortbow 5. If they want to fight, they use shadow shot, heartseekr or swap to shortbow. But never, ever, under any circumstances, do they go for stealth. And still Shadows Embrace is run. Because its better.

There where other teams that they used D/P and use it to stealth . For example there was a team with 2 Thieves that made it to the top 8 and lost from the 1 French , that their job was to go far and take turns attacking/stealthing up to win matches vs Mesmers + other other Bunkers .

They use
out of combat
stealth. Yes, that is true. However, there Shadows Embrace doesnt matter. Youre out of combat. You didnt have any conditions. They did not use in-combat stealth at all.

At the final 6 , Cheese vs 55rank i believe you could see some stealth ingame action too . If you are near the target >hit> try to stealth up the damage reduction traits will be working fine

Out of combat stealth, yes. In combat stealth, no. And no, they wont, your heartseeker will move you too far away. Sorry.

I hope we can see the Grenade Enginner in the tournament , its sound preety fun for 1-shot aoes burst

It doesnt oneshot anything but the squishy thieves that already took damage from sticking in a fight. Again, you fixate on the wrong things. But let me just reiterate once more. Good thieves do not use in-combat stealth. If they are activaly fighting an enemy, under (almost) no circumstances will they ever stealth, because its suicidal. They will ONLY stealth out of combat. As a result, Shadows Embrace is ONLY used for concealing restoration, a single condi clear on your healing skill. And its still used over hidden thief, because its much better than hidden thief, even then.

Those 2 D/P thiefs took turns . If some1 was low on hp he would stealth up in combta , heal and then come back . The same tactic they used in mid in teamfights .

Im gonna assume that he did not stealth up in combat, but out of combat. A quick look over the game I assume youre describing confirms that assumption. They used out of combat stealth, not in-combat stealth.

Heartseeker is not effected by out of combat stealth or in combat stealth .It travels the same distance , just like Dash . Its ok if you have some questions about how things works

I know, youre missing the point. The point is that when you use in-combat stealth, youre locked into your animation. Your heartseeker will take you a set distance away in a set direction. The enemy will punish and down you. Hence why good thieves do not ever use in-combat stealth. Did you finally understand that? Yes? Good. Lets leave the fact that thief doesnt use in-combat stealth as that, as well as the fact that shadows embrace is used only for concealing restoration and is still better than hidden thief.

Could you post some pic with the burst of Barrage ? So i wont underestimate it on my que ?

Too much effort, cant be bothered.

I am sure 100% that that team with the those 2x Thieves that made it to the final 8 , they used Heartseeker+ Powder for stealth , when they where 50% hp . While the other maintain the pressure . Or like other thieves from other teams .

The only one I saw did not use it in-combat. When they wanted to get out, they did like any good thief does, and shortbow 5 out. If they tried to BP + Heartseeker for stealth when they were at 50%, they wouldve just died.

Not all classes punish you while you do the stealth combo , and the 90% of the majority are Bunkers . In lower tiers where everyone is wearing Berseker amulets , they might punish the thief for trying to stealth up . But the current meta is Bunker-Condition

Incorrect. All classes punish you when doing the stealth combo. Most arent bunkers. Condi isnt meta (hence why condi thief was such an upset). In lower tiers, people use stealth, because the thieves are bad and dont know its bad, and the enemies are bad and dont punish it. In high level, they do not ever use stealth mid-combat.

Hence they stealth up and use the Shadow Embrace trait

Incorrect. They do not stealth up, and shadows embrace is used exclusively for concealing restoration. As I have explained, both of these are undeniable facts. You can look at all of Sindreners games, you will see he does not ever stealth up mid-combat. For this exact same reason. And he still uses Shadows Embrace. Because its still better than hidden thief. Is the fact that these are undeniable facts finally clear to you? Because I would like to not have to repeat myself just because you want to believe that thieves use in-combat stealth, despite it being undeniable fact that they do not.

First of all thieves have Dash also , which is free if they are going to escape .

Dash alone wont get you far. You need shortbow.

And secondary you should watch the Tournament stream , you might take some ideas about the tricks on stealthing in-game .Or meet me ingame

So youre gonna make me repeat myself. In the combat, they didnt use stealth mid-combat. Full stop. They did not use it. Well, other than the exact one exception I have already listed and wont repeat. I dont need "ideas to stealth mid-combat", because unlike you, I know that its bad, and that good thieves dont use it. Well, not that I need it, I dont play thief.

If in lower levels , the people dont know how to punish a person stealthing , while in higher tiers people using D/P combo to stealth in combat . So the premish that people avoiding stealth , its no true :)

That is a lie. In higher tiers people
NEVER
stealth mid-combat. Let me repeat myself so that it gets through to you finally. They.
Never
. Stealth. Mid. Combat. Again, just take a look at Sindrener. If you watch his videos and keep track, you will find that in the vast majority of games he plays, he stealths mid-combat exactly
0
times. Thats right, not at all. In
rare
games he stealths once. Maybe twice. In
NO
game whatsoever does he stealth mid-combat regularly. So, the premise that people avoid stealth is absolutely true, despite your insistence to disgregard the truth.

450 yards , 0 cost , vs 600 yards half resources , well there is no contest on which to chooseIf you add them up , well you have more mobility that Vanilia i believe .

Shortbow is 900 units, not 600. It also is much faster than Dash. There is indeed no contest on which to choose, the answer is Shortbow 5,
always
.

The thieves used ingame combat to survive , you should watch the Tournaments , rather than go in circles .

I did watch it. They didnt. They never used in-combat stealth to survive, because if would achieve the exact opposite. It would ensure their death.

Its ok , if you don't know some things , you don't to insist something that is not true . People are using stealth in high and low tiers . Its not underpowered beyond redemption as you are saying . You haven't simply don't know some high level tricks

It is ok if I dont know somethings. This is not one of them. I know it. You clearly do not, yet try to talk as if you have the faintest clue. People do not use in-combat stealth in high tiers (they do use out of combat stealth). Full stop. This is undeniable fact. You can deny this if you want, but know that it doesnt make the truth less true. It just makes you no different from a flat earther. So if you deny it once more despite the fact that its true, I will assume you indeed are one, and disregard you. It is underpowered, hence why its not used.

But in the vain hope that this will finally get through to you, answer me this. If in-combat stealth is so great. If its supposedly used in higher tiers. How comes Sindrener, the best thief in the game (not that there is much competition nowadays)
NEVER
uses it. Unless you can answer that question you need to accept that the premise, and your belief that stealth is good, is wrong. Oh and to save you the trouble, you cant answer it. The premise and your belief are just wrong.

I am sorry again , but you are wrong . You should give it a chance and see the Tournament .

I am not. I did watch it. I saw that you simply lied.

The majority of the classes and in the Meta are Bunkers , they don't have the firepower to 1-shot you in stealth .

They are not. This too is a lie.

Heh .. even you had said that in lower tier people don't know how to counter it . Give it a try , just watch the tournament or some youtube video about tricks of stealth

I did. The number 1 trick about stealth every thief learns is "never use stealth mid-combat". You should learn that too. And I see you avoided the Sindrener Question. Realising you have no answer? Of course you dont. Youre wrong, but clearly unwilling to accept it. But the fact that in-combat stealth is bad and never used by the highest tier players is undeniable and irrefutable. So lets leave it at that. That is fact, you deny that fact, making you no different from someone denying that the earth is round (or rather an ellipsoid).

I am sorry , but you really have to see that Thiefs use the in-combat stealth in those Tournaments .

I cant see what isnt there. Unless you call "exiting the fight, getting outside of the enemy range, and then stealthing up" in-combat stealth. Which it is not.

We are started as noobs , but we got better with watching others

Something you should take to heart. You should watch good thieves. See how they dont use in-combat stealth. You could learn a lot from that.

Give it a try .Other people found a way to use stealth as a tactic , dont be afraid to improve yourself

They didnt. What people found is that out of combat stealth is great. But for in-combat, they found that the best tactic is to
NEVER
use it. The ultimate improvement any thief can obtain is to stop using stealth mid-combat like a complete idiot. Hence why, as I said, Sindrener doesnt ever use it. And once again you ignore the Sindrener question. At this point I have to assume that youre either trolling, or so invested in the lie you want to believe that the truth will never get through to you. Doesnt matter. The fact that in-combat stealth is bad and never used by high tier thieves is undeniable. People can check it themselves by watching Sindrener. Your refusal to accept the truth has no relevance.

I mean , using Black Powder +Heartseeker after they hit the enemy and they are near him and try to escape , it doesnt sound as out of combat .

Correct. They didnt do that.

You should watch the tournament , it will resolve and improve somewhat your skills .

I did. I saw that you lied. Hence why I called you out on it.

Btw : which streamer said ''never use stealth mid-combat'' ?Sindrener ?Is he the one currupting the youth , with his sexy body ?

None of them say it. Because they assume their viewers are good enough to understand themselves why in-combat stealth is bad. However, what they dont say, they show. As I said. Take any Sindrener video. See how often he stealths in-combat during the game. The answer is almost always
0
, rarely 1,
never
regularly. If in-combat stealth is so great, why is it that he never uses it? Oh I know the answer. Its not great. Its awful. And he doesnt use it because its awful.

But Im getting tired of repeating the same thing over and over, hoping that you accept the truth at any point. So I will leave it off here. Youre free to deny the undeniable truth that in-combat stealth is bad and not used by good thief players. Please, do use in-combat stealth. Your enemies will be very happy. And maybe Ill get lucky and have you as my enemy so I can abuse the fact that youre not good enough to understand why in-combat stealth is so useless.

I am sorry , but you have to watch the stream , even the team with those 2x thieves that went far + mid .

I did. They still didnt do it.

If none said that ''never use stealth mid-combat'' and many have used in the tournaments , maybe ...just maybe you are immagining things and created your own false theory that people should not stealth ?

Oh plenty of people have said it. But its old knowledge. Not worth repeating if weve known it for 4+ years, is it? Just like you dont say "dodge the eviscerate". Or "use shadowstep for safe stomping". Almost none have used it in tournaments, and the few that did, didnt get far. And you
still
refuse to answer why Sindrener isnt using in-combat stealth. Maybe youre starting to doubt your lie. Keep thinking about that fact. If its so good, why does he not use it? In fact, Vallun doesnt either. None of the best thieves ever use in-combat stealth.
Why?

See the Tournament , i cannot help you to improve if you cant watch it . Theres some interested mechanics that i am trying to learn for my Mesmer .Which people (plenty as you said) told you ''dont use in-game stealth''? In which thread ?

How many times do I have to repeat myself. I. DID. WATCH. IT. It does not show what you want it to show. Also, which people have said "dont use in-combat stealth" (not in-game, you use out of combat stealth, just not in-combat stealth)? Well, every single good thief who has ever played the game after 2015. Prior to 2015 we hadnt figured that out yet. That includes Sindrener. That includes Toker. And even every thief that wasnt a top tier thief. Its common knowledge.

Watch the video of the Vallun , its here in the PvP section

The one where he uses in-combat stealth a grand total of once, and got lucky that the enemy Ranger was too slow to react because otherwise he wouldve died? That ... just further disproves your point. Not only does he not use in-combat stealth, the one time he did, if he didnt get lucky, it wouldve lead to his death.

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Captain Kuro.8937

Captain Kuro.8937

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Posted

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the
, for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)

It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.

The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleanceI beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources

They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.

If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .Even on Vallun video a while back

Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.

It behaves like Cloack And Dagger

If you cloak and Dagger when youre already stealthed you also get revealed.

Mug its on Deadly spec .And we are talking about meta builds

There is just redundant. Why would you want stealth on steal? You steal backstab when engaging. Youre not gonna steal for stealth mid-combat, and out of combat you have stealth anyway.

You cannot remove a clutch Burn , because they are overbearing conditions. So 1x condtion removal is worthless .

Hardly. Shadows Embrace is nice in that it only removes
damaging
conditions. So if they have burn cripple and so on, you remove the burn. Even 1 condi cleanse is quite valuable, especially on a class that generally lacks them.

I believe that Thief actually use stealth to benefit from it much more

Not really. If you try to stealth mid-combat, you just get hit for a ton more damage than you would remove from the 1 condi cleanse. Youre also not gonna be able to just stay in stealth and wait for another tick, you die before that. Its legitimately just for the healing skill.

Rather than wasting 9 resources on Heartseeker + Powder and then steal , you can instead simply Steal without a cost and gain stealth , also reduce the Shadowsteap from 50>40 sec and Blinding Powder 40>32 sec

Youre going to "waste" those 9 resources anyway, because you want to stack up Leeching Venoms, and you want to engage on them without them ever knowing you were there. Oh and since you use steal on the opening burst, that also means you wont be able to use it later. Reducing the CD of Shadowstep is nice, but not significant enough. You dont use Blinding Powder right now anyway.

Burns can be re-applied , so remove one is kinda worthless . If Thieves stealth more (which i believe they do) they benefit from it much more . The stealth from the healing spell lasts 2 sec (1s from PvP + Melds) , you will only benefit from 1 condtion removal from the start and not a second

They can be, but its still great. They stack the burst on you, and you negate it. And then you run away, so they cant just keep reapplying it. Thats why its great. Thieves do
NOT
stealth more. Because its actively suicidal and just about the only way a thief can get himself killed. It also doesnt benefit more at all. Youre not gonna survive waiting 3 seconds for the second condi removal. And yes, you only get the 1 condi removal at the start. Thats how the trait works.

Yeah you are going to waste 9 resources and stealth for 3 sec , or waste those 9 resources and use Hidden Thief for 6 sec stealth . Reggardles of what stealth method you choose the Leeching Venoms poison will still come up .

And in that case, you burn the steal before you can use it to engage. A complete waste. Both of a trait, and of steal. A terrible idea.

If you use the 20 sec heal that the trait does offer stealth in combat , is a defensive option that most thieves do . Its not suicidal , its called ''tactical get the hell away'' . And still Shadow Embrace is kinda worthless for a 2 sec stealth only . Maybe the majority of the stealth + streamers have a different tactics and use itmore than us ?

Stealth in combat is not a defensive option. Its suicidal. Here is what happens. You plop down a smoke field, try to heartseeker and whoops, your opponent decided to abuse the fact that youre stuck in 1.25 seconds worth of animation, threw some damage youre way, and youre suddenly downed. Why, that doesnt seem useful at all. Thats why you dont do it. Its why top tier streamers dont use it. And no, shadows embrace is still good for Concealing Restoration. Youre right, its not terribly much, but the alternatives are both
worse
. Merciful Ambush doesnt come into play often enough, and Hidden Thief is just not useful.

Rather than having 1 condition removal every 20 sec (on heal>stealth) . Its better to have :

I dont know why you think repeating the same wrong thing maakes it true. No, Hidden Thief is
much
worse. End of story.

But in the other hand if poeple use stealth a lot more , like Vallun it makes sense that they benefit from it more

He doesnt. Look at Vallun. Look at Sindrener. See how often they use in-combat stealth. Unless its to finish off a target (usually when theyre 3 or 4v1) the answer is
never
. And in that situation, shadows embrace isnt doing anything.

Concealing Restoration is more suicidal , because you must wait before the channel ends and then you stealth .

Completely, utterly 100% wrong. When you use channeled vigor, you regain health. You still might take damage, but youre not even locked in an animation, you can move. Its 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times less suicidal.

While doing Black Powder offer some Blind and the Heartseeker some mobility (just like Dash)

You dont get the blind unless you target an enemy then drop targetting, which is clunky. And the mobility doesnt help you because your opponent knows exactly where you will move. Neither of those will save you from the grenade barrage Im aiming at you that will down you instantly. Which is why
EVERY
good thief avoids in-combat stealth. Please, for future reference, dont talk about thief if you dont know thief.

No i am sorry , but you are kinda wrong here .

I am absolutely correct. You are the one who is wrong.

If the majority of the streamers + metabattle have that traits ,it mean that they stealth more and benefit from that trait . Otherwise they would take that Hidden Thief .

Wrong. Hidden Thief is worse. Even if you just use concealing restoration (Which yes, is what they do), it is so much worse. But if you dont believe me, just go ahead and watch Sindrener. He is using Shadows Embrace. See how often he goes for in-combat stealth (Or let me spoil you: Almost never).

They know more than you and me .You could look at the Vallun Video , where he stealth and use Dash to get away from danger . If you some problems with stealthing up , we can meet inside and give you some tips

They do. Thats why they
DONT
stealth mid-combat. They know its suicidal and the worst thing a thief can do by far. Watch
most recent games on sinds youtube channel. Pop Quiz: During the entire 15 minute match, how many times does he stealth mid combat? The answer is
once
. Against a prot holo that cant punish him. Didnt clear any condis doing it though. And still he runs shadows embrace. Why? Because its much better than hidden thief, even if you just use concealing restoration like the good thieves do. Why? Well I already explained.

I saw multiply thieves from the tournament and Vallun use stealth .

Out of combat stealth. Yes. In-combat stealth? No. Well, other than maybe the condi thieves using Shadow Refuge to immediately leave stealth and just proc shadow bolts on the stealth attack. That appears to be how it was used.

And Sind uses the Embrace trait vs heavy condition opponents , while the enemy waste aoes , he hides and uses the trait to cleanse conditions

No, he uses them against
all
opponents. He does not do what you describe
EVER
. Because that doesnt work. You do not stealth mid-combat (unless its to finish off an outnumbered enemy, maybe, and
maybe
if youre facing a low-damage bunker and wanna prepare to switch targets to someone a bit further way. But even in that case, it makes more sense to get out first, then stealth). If you stealth mid-combat, you die unless your opponent is playing a low-damage bunker. And even then you sometimes die. Thats why you dont use it.

I am hopping to see a Grenade Barrage Enginner on the Tournaments on July . Maybe we can see that spec to be used vs stealth Mesmer also

Why? Grenade Engineer isnt particularly good. Its just an example because I play it. Any class can punish thief for trying to stealth mid-combat. Thats why every single good thief doesnt use mid-combat stealth. And yet they use Shadows Embrace, because its still much better. It is that simple. Accept the fact, or be quiet.

Ehm ...other specs too exept the 2x French . The majority of the enemies are Bunkers and while you having the damage reduction from the Daredevil traits , they cannot huke you high enought

And they too didnt use it, other than
exactly
with shadow Refuge and dropping it
exactly
instantly just to get the stealth attack with the shadow projectile finishers. The damage reduction traits wont be active when you try to stealth up (you move out of range and the enemy wont be weak). Right now even bunkers can do a lot of damage, and far from everyone is playing bunkers. You will get nuked.

I thought for a sec that Grenade Engineer , was death incarnate with all these '''if you stealth , you will get nuked by it'' .In lower levels everything works and everything punish each other

The point is that
even
Grenade Engineer can nuke you when you try to stealth. Any build can. Its funny that you bring up lower levels, because its
ONLY
in lower levels that thieves use stealth mid-combat. Because they arent good, and their opponents arent good. In high level, you will almost never see a thief use stealth mid-combat. If they want to run, they shortbow 5. If they want to fight, they use shadow shot, heartseekr or swap to shortbow. But never, ever, under any circumstances, do they go for stealth. And still Shadows Embrace is run. Because its better.

There where other teams that they used D/P and use it to stealth . For example there was a team with 2 Thieves that made it to the top 8 and lost from the 1 French , that their job was to go far and take turns attacking/stealthing up to win matches vs Mesmers + other other Bunkers .

They use
out of combat
stealth. Yes, that is true. However, there Shadows Embrace doesnt matter. Youre out of combat. You didnt have any conditions. They did not use in-combat stealth at all.

At the final 6 , Cheese vs 55rank i believe you could see some stealth ingame action too . If you are near the target >hit> try to stealth up the damage reduction traits will be working fine

Out of combat stealth, yes. In combat stealth, no. And no, they wont, your heartseeker will move you too far away. Sorry.

I hope we can see the Grenade Enginner in the tournament , its sound preety fun for 1-shot aoes burst

It doesnt oneshot anything but the squishy thieves that already took damage from sticking in a fight. Again, you fixate on the wrong things. But let me just reiterate once more. Good thieves do not use in-combat stealth. If they are activaly fighting an enemy, under (almost) no circumstances will they ever stealth, because its suicidal. They will ONLY stealth out of combat. As a result, Shadows Embrace is ONLY used for concealing restoration, a single condi clear on your healing skill. And its still used over hidden thief, because its much better than hidden thief, even then.

Those 2 D/P thiefs took turns . If some1 was low on hp he would stealth up in combta , heal and then come back . The same tactic they used in mid in teamfights .

Im gonna assume that he did not stealth up in combat, but out of combat. A quick look over the game I assume youre describing confirms that assumption. They used out of combat stealth, not in-combat stealth.

Heartseeker is not effected by out of combat stealth or in combat stealth .It travels the same distance , just like Dash . Its ok if you have some questions about how things works

I know, youre missing the point. The point is that when you use in-combat stealth, youre locked into your animation. Your heartseeker will take you a set distance away in a set direction. The enemy will punish and down you. Hence why good thieves do not ever use in-combat stealth. Did you finally understand that? Yes? Good. Lets leave the fact that thief doesnt use in-combat stealth as that, as well as the fact that shadows embrace is used only for concealing restoration and is still better than hidden thief.

Could you post some pic with the burst of Barrage ? So i wont underestimate it on my que ?

Too much effort, cant be bothered.

I am sure 100% that that team with the those 2x Thieves that made it to the final 8 , they used Heartseeker+ Powder for stealth , when they where 50% hp . While the other maintain the pressure . Or like other thieves from other teams .

The only one I saw did not use it in-combat. When they wanted to get out, they did like any good thief does, and shortbow 5 out. If they tried to BP + Heartseeker for stealth when they were at 50%, they wouldve just died.

Not all classes punish you while you do the stealth combo , and the 90% of the majority are Bunkers . In lower tiers where everyone is wearing Berseker amulets , they might punish the thief for trying to stealth up . But the current meta is Bunker-Condition

Incorrect. All classes punish you when doing the stealth combo. Most arent bunkers. Condi isnt meta (hence why condi thief was such an upset). In lower tiers, people use stealth, because the thieves are bad and dont know its bad, and the enemies are bad and dont punish it. In high level, they do not ever use stealth mid-combat.

Hence they stealth up and use the Shadow Embrace trait

Incorrect. They do not stealth up, and shadows embrace is used exclusively for concealing restoration. As I have explained, both of these are undeniable facts. You can look at all of Sindreners games, you will see he does not ever stealth up mid-combat. For this exact same reason. And he still uses Shadows Embrace. Because its still better than hidden thief. Is the fact that these are undeniable facts finally clear to you? Because I would like to not have to repeat myself just because you want to believe that thieves use in-combat stealth, despite it being undeniable fact that they do not.

First of all thieves have Dash also , which is free if they are going to escape .

Dash alone wont get you far. You need shortbow.

And secondary you should watch the Tournament stream , you might take some ideas about the tricks on stealthing in-game .Or meet me ingame

So youre gonna make me repeat myself. In the combat, they didnt use stealth mid-combat. Full stop. They did not use it. Well, other than the exact one exception I have already listed and wont repeat. I dont need "ideas to stealth mid-combat", because unlike you, I know that its bad, and that good thieves dont use it. Well, not that I need it, I dont play thief.

If in lower levels , the people dont know how to punish a person stealthing , while in higher tiers people using D/P combo to stealth in combat . So the premish that people avoiding stealth , its no true :)

That is a lie. In higher tiers people
NEVER
stealth mid-combat. Let me repeat myself so that it gets through to you finally. They.
Never
. Stealth. Mid. Combat. Again, just take a look at Sindrener. If you watch his videos and keep track, you will find that in the vast majority of games he plays, he stealths mid-combat exactly
0
times. Thats right, not at all. In
rare
games he stealths once. Maybe twice. In
NO
game whatsoever does he stealth mid-combat regularly. So, the premise that people avoid stealth is absolutely true, despite your insistence to disgregard the truth.

450 yards , 0 cost , vs 600 yards half resources , well there is no contest on which to chooseIf you add them up , well you have more mobility that Vanilia i believe .

Shortbow is 900 units, not 600. It also is much faster than Dash. There is indeed no contest on which to choose, the answer is Shortbow 5,
always
.

The thieves used ingame combat to survive , you should watch the Tournaments , rather than go in circles .

I did watch it. They didnt. They never used in-combat stealth to survive, because if would achieve the exact opposite. It would ensure their death.

Its ok , if you don't know some things , you don't to insist something that is not true . People are using stealth in high and low tiers . Its not underpowered beyond redemption as you are saying . You haven't simply don't know some high level tricks

It is ok if I dont know somethings. This is not one of them. I know it. You clearly do not, yet try to talk as if you have the faintest clue. People do not use in-combat stealth in high tiers (they do use out of combat stealth). Full stop. This is undeniable fact. You can deny this if you want, but know that it doesnt make the truth less true. It just makes you no different from a flat earther. So if you deny it once more despite the fact that its true, I will assume you indeed are one, and disregard you. It is underpowered, hence why its not used.

But in the vain hope that this will finally get through to you, answer me this. If in-combat stealth is so great. If its supposedly used in higher tiers. How comes Sindrener, the best thief in the game (not that there is much competition nowadays)
NEVER
uses it. Unless you can answer that question you need to accept that the premise, and your belief that stealth is good, is wrong. Oh and to save you the trouble, you cant answer it. The premise and your belief are just wrong.

I am sorry again , but you are wrong . You should give it a chance and see the Tournament .

I am not. I did watch it. I saw that you simply lied.

The majority of the classes and in the Meta are Bunkers , they don't have the firepower to 1-shot you in stealth .

They are not. This too is a lie.

Heh .. even you had said that in lower tier people don't know how to counter it . Give it a try , just watch the tournament or some youtube video about tricks of stealth

I did. The number 1 trick about stealth every thief learns is "never use stealth mid-combat". You should learn that too. And I see you avoided the Sindrener Question. Realising you have no answer? Of course you dont. Youre wrong, but clearly unwilling to accept it. But the fact that in-combat stealth is bad and never used by the highest tier players is undeniable and irrefutable. So lets leave it at that. That is fact, you deny that fact, making you no different from someone denying that the earth is round (or rather an ellipsoid).

I am sorry , but you really have to see that Thiefs use the in-combat stealth in those Tournaments .

I cant see what isnt there. Unless you call "exiting the fight, getting outside of the enemy range, and then stealthing up" in-combat stealth. Which it is not.

We are started as noobs , but we got better with watching others

Something you should take to heart. You should watch good thieves. See how they dont use in-combat stealth. You could learn a lot from that.

Give it a try .Other people found a way to use stealth as a tactic , dont be afraid to improve yourself

They didnt. What people found is that out of combat stealth is great. But for in-combat, they found that the best tactic is to
NEVER
use it. The ultimate improvement any thief can obtain is to stop using stealth mid-combat like a complete idiot. Hence why, as I said, Sindrener doesnt ever use it. And once again you ignore the Sindrener question. At this point I have to assume that youre either trolling, or so invested in the lie you want to believe that the truth will never get through to you. Doesnt matter. The fact that in-combat stealth is bad and never used by high tier thieves is undeniable. People can check it themselves by watching Sindrener. Your refusal to accept the truth has no relevance.

I mean , using Black Powder +Heartseeker after they hit the enemy and they are near him and try to escape , it doesnt sound as out of combat .

Correct. They didnt do that.

You should watch the tournament , it will resolve and improve somewhat your skills .

I did. I saw that you lied. Hence why I called you out on it.

Btw : which streamer said ''never use stealth mid-combat'' ?Sindrener ?Is he the one currupting the youth , with his sexy body ?

None of them say it. Because they assume their viewers are good enough to understand themselves why in-combat stealth is bad. However, what they dont say, they show. As I said. Take any Sindrener video. See how often he stealths in-combat during the game. The answer is almost always
0
, rarely 1,
never
regularly. If in-combat stealth is so great, why is it that he never uses it? Oh I know the answer. Its not great. Its awful. And he doesnt use it because its awful.

But Im getting tired of repeating the same thing over and over, hoping that you accept the truth at any point. So I will leave it off here. Youre free to deny the undeniable truth that in-combat stealth is bad and not used by good thief players. Please, do use in-combat stealth. Your enemies will be very happy. And maybe Ill get lucky and have you as my enemy so I can abuse the fact that youre not good enough to understand why in-combat stealth is so useless.

I am sorry , but you have to watch the stream , even the team with those 2x thieves that went far + mid .

I did. They still didnt do it.

If none said that ''never use stealth mid-combat'' and many have used in the tournaments , maybe ...just maybe you are immagining things and created your own false theory that people should not stealth ?

Oh plenty of people have said it. But its old knowledge. Not worth repeating if weve known it for 4+ years, is it? Just like you dont say "dodge the eviscerate". Or "use shadowstep for safe stomping". Almost none have used it in tournaments, and the few that did, didnt get far. And you
still
refuse to answer why Sindrener isnt using in-combat stealth. Maybe youre starting to doubt your lie. Keep thinking about that fact. If its so good, why does he not use it? In fact, Vallun doesnt either. None of the best thieves ever use in-combat stealth.
Why?

See the Tournament , i cannot help you to improve if you cant watch it . Theres some interested mechanics that i am trying to learn for my Mesmer .Which people (plenty as you said) told you ''dont use in-game stealth''? In which thread ?

How many times do I have to repeat myself. I. DID. WATCH. IT. It does not show what you want it to show. Also, which people have said "dont use in-combat stealth" (not in-game, you use out of combat stealth, just not in-combat stealth)? Well, every single good thief who has ever played the game after 2015. Prior to 2015 we hadnt figured that out yet. That includes Sindrener. That includes Toker. And even every thief that wasnt a top tier thief. Its common knowledge.

Watch the video of the Vallun , its here in the PvP section

The one where he uses in-combat stealth a grand total of
once
, and got lucky that the enemy Ranger was too slow to react because otherwise he wouldve died? That ... just further disproves your point. Not only does he not use in-combat stealth, the one time he did, if he didnt get lucky, it wouldve lead to his death.

First of all re-watch it . You had skipped a lotWhat was the 2015 name that told you , not to use stealth mid-combat ?

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@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the
, for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)

It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.

The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleanceI beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources

They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.

If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .Even on Vallun video a while back

Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.

It behaves like Cloack And Dagger

If you cloak and Dagger when youre already stealthed you also get revealed.

Mug its on Deadly spec .And we are talking about meta builds

There is just redundant. Why would you want stealth on steal? You steal backstab when engaging. Youre not gonna steal for stealth mid-combat, and out of combat you have stealth anyway.

You cannot remove a clutch Burn , because they are overbearing conditions. So 1x condtion removal is worthless .

Hardly. Shadows Embrace is nice in that it only removes
damaging
conditions. So if they have burn cripple and so on, you remove the burn. Even 1 condi cleanse is quite valuable, especially on a class that generally lacks them.

I believe that Thief actually use stealth to benefit from it much more

Not really. If you try to stealth mid-combat, you just get hit for a ton more damage than you would remove from the 1 condi cleanse. Youre also not gonna be able to just stay in stealth and wait for another tick, you die before that. Its legitimately just for the healing skill.

Rather than wasting 9 resources on Heartseeker + Powder and then steal , you can instead simply Steal without a cost and gain stealth , also reduce the Shadowsteap from 50>40 sec and Blinding Powder 40>32 sec

Youre going to "waste" those 9 resources anyway, because you want to stack up Leeching Venoms, and you want to engage on them without them ever knowing you were there. Oh and since you use steal on the opening burst, that also means you wont be able to use it later. Reducing the CD of Shadowstep is nice, but not significant enough. You dont use Blinding Powder right now anyway.

Burns can be re-applied , so remove one is kinda worthless . If Thieves stealth more (which i believe they do) they benefit from it much more . The stealth from the healing spell lasts 2 sec (1s from PvP + Melds) , you will only benefit from 1 condtion removal from the start and not a second

They can be, but its still great. They stack the burst on you, and you negate it. And then you run away, so they cant just keep reapplying it. Thats why its great. Thieves do
NOT
stealth more. Because its actively suicidal and just about the only way a thief can get himself killed. It also doesnt benefit more at all. Youre not gonna survive waiting 3 seconds for the second condi removal. And yes, you only get the 1 condi removal at the start. Thats how the trait works.

Yeah you are going to waste 9 resources and stealth for 3 sec , or waste those 9 resources and use Hidden Thief for 6 sec stealth . Reggardles of what stealth method you choose the Leeching Venoms poison will still come up .

And in that case, you burn the steal before you can use it to engage. A complete waste. Both of a trait, and of steal. A terrible idea.

If you use the 20 sec heal that the trait does offer stealth in combat , is a defensive option that most thieves do . Its not suicidal , its called ''tactical get the hell away'' . And still Shadow Embrace is kinda worthless for a 2 sec stealth only . Maybe the majority of the stealth + streamers have a different tactics and use itmore than us ?

Stealth in combat is not a defensive option. Its suicidal. Here is what happens. You plop down a smoke field, try to heartseeker and whoops, your opponent decided to abuse the fact that youre stuck in 1.25 seconds worth of animation, threw some damage youre way, and youre suddenly downed. Why, that doesnt seem useful at all. Thats why you dont do it. Its why top tier streamers dont use it. And no, shadows embrace is still good for Concealing Restoration. Youre right, its not terribly much, but the alternatives are both
worse
. Merciful Ambush doesnt come into play often enough, and Hidden Thief is just not useful.

Rather than having 1 condition removal every 20 sec (on heal>stealth) . Its better to have :

I dont know why you think repeating the same wrong thing maakes it true. No, Hidden Thief is
much
worse. End of story.

But in the other hand if poeple use stealth a lot more , like Vallun it makes sense that they benefit from it more

He doesnt. Look at Vallun. Look at Sindrener. See how often they use in-combat stealth. Unless its to finish off a target (usually when theyre 3 or 4v1) the answer is
never
. And in that situation, shadows embrace isnt doing anything.

Concealing Restoration is more suicidal , because you must wait before the channel ends and then you stealth .

Completely, utterly 100% wrong. When you use channeled vigor, you regain health. You still might take damage, but youre not even locked in an animation, you can move. Its 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times less suicidal.

While doing Black Powder offer some Blind and the Heartseeker some mobility (just like Dash)

You dont get the blind unless you target an enemy then drop targetting, which is clunky. And the mobility doesnt help you because your opponent knows exactly where you will move. Neither of those will save you from the grenade barrage Im aiming at you that will down you instantly. Which is why
EVERY
good thief avoids in-combat stealth. Please, for future reference, dont talk about thief if you dont know thief.

No i am sorry , but you are kinda wrong here .

I am absolutely correct. You are the one who is wrong.

If the majority of the streamers + metabattle have that traits ,it mean that they stealth more and benefit from that trait . Otherwise they would take that Hidden Thief .

Wrong. Hidden Thief is worse. Even if you just use concealing restoration (Which yes, is what they do), it is so much worse. But if you dont believe me, just go ahead and watch Sindrener. He is using Shadows Embrace. See how often he goes for in-combat stealth (Or let me spoil you: Almost never).

They know more than you and me .You could look at the Vallun Video , where he stealth and use Dash to get away from danger . If you some problems with stealthing up , we can meet inside and give you some tips

They do. Thats why they
DONT
stealth mid-combat. They know its suicidal and the worst thing a thief can do by far. Watch
most recent games on sinds youtube channel. Pop Quiz: During the entire 15 minute match, how many times does he stealth mid combat? The answer is
once
. Against a prot holo that cant punish him. Didnt clear any condis doing it though. And still he runs shadows embrace. Why? Because its much better than hidden thief, even if you just use concealing restoration like the good thieves do. Why? Well I already explained.

I saw multiply thieves from the tournament and Vallun use stealth .

Out of combat stealth. Yes. In-combat stealth? No. Well, other than maybe the condi thieves using Shadow Refuge to immediately leave stealth and just proc shadow bolts on the stealth attack. That appears to be how it was used.

And Sind uses the Embrace trait vs heavy condition opponents , while the enemy waste aoes , he hides and uses the trait to cleanse conditions

No, he uses them against
all
opponents. He does not do what you describe
EVER
. Because that doesnt work. You do not stealth mid-combat (unless its to finish off an outnumbered enemy, maybe, and
maybe
if youre facing a low-damage bunker and wanna prepare to switch targets to someone a bit further way. But even in that case, it makes more sense to get out first, then stealth). If you stealth mid-combat, you die unless your opponent is playing a low-damage bunker. And even then you sometimes die. Thats why you dont use it.

I am hopping to see a Grenade Barrage Enginner on the Tournaments on July . Maybe we can see that spec to be used vs stealth Mesmer also

Why? Grenade Engineer isnt particularly good. Its just an example because I play it. Any class can punish thief for trying to stealth mid-combat. Thats why every single good thief doesnt use mid-combat stealth. And yet they use Shadows Embrace, because its still much better. It is that simple. Accept the fact, or be quiet.

Ehm ...other specs too exept the 2x French . The majority of the enemies are Bunkers and while you having the damage reduction from the Daredevil traits , they cannot huke you high enought

And they too didnt use it, other than
exactly
with shadow Refuge and dropping it
exactly
instantly just to get the stealth attack with the shadow projectile finishers. The damage reduction traits wont be active when you try to stealth up (you move out of range and the enemy wont be weak). Right now even bunkers can do a lot of damage, and far from everyone is playing bunkers. You will get nuked.

I thought for a sec that Grenade Engineer , was death incarnate with all these '''if you stealth , you will get nuked by it'' .In lower levels everything works and everything punish each other

The point is that
even
Grenade Engineer can nuke you when you try to stealth. Any build can. Its funny that you bring up lower levels, because its
ONLY
in lower levels that thieves use stealth mid-combat. Because they arent good, and their opponents arent good. In high level, you will almost never see a thief use stealth mid-combat. If they want to run, they shortbow 5. If they want to fight, they use shadow shot, heartseekr or swap to shortbow. But never, ever, under any circumstances, do they go for stealth. And still Shadows Embrace is run. Because its better.

There where other teams that they used D/P and use it to stealth . For example there was a team with 2 Thieves that made it to the top 8 and lost from the 1 French , that their job was to go far and take turns attacking/stealthing up to win matches vs Mesmers + other other Bunkers .

They use
out of combat
stealth. Yes, that is true. However, there Shadows Embrace doesnt matter. Youre out of combat. You didnt have any conditions. They did not use in-combat stealth at all.

At the final 6 , Cheese vs 55rank i believe you could see some stealth ingame action too . If you are near the target >hit> try to stealth up the damage reduction traits will be working fine

Out of combat stealth, yes. In combat stealth, no. And no, they wont, your heartseeker will move you too far away. Sorry.

I hope we can see the Grenade Enginner in the tournament , its sound preety fun for 1-shot aoes burst

It doesnt oneshot anything but the squishy thieves that already took damage from sticking in a fight. Again, you fixate on the wrong things. But let me just reiterate once more. Good thieves do not use in-combat stealth. If they are activaly fighting an enemy, under (almost) no circumstances will they ever stealth, because its suicidal. They will ONLY stealth out of combat. As a result, Shadows Embrace is ONLY used for concealing restoration, a single condi clear on your healing skill. And its still used over hidden thief, because its much better than hidden thief, even then.

Those 2 D/P thiefs took turns . If some1 was low on hp he would stealth up in combta , heal and then come back . The same tactic they used in mid in teamfights .

Im gonna assume that he did not stealth up in combat, but out of combat. A quick look over the game I assume youre describing confirms that assumption. They used out of combat stealth, not in-combat stealth.

Heartseeker is not effected by out of combat stealth or in combat stealth .It travels the same distance , just like Dash . Its ok if you have some questions about how things works

I know, youre missing the point. The point is that when you use in-combat stealth, youre locked into your animation. Your heartseeker will take you a set distance away in a set direction. The enemy will punish and down you. Hence why good thieves do not ever use in-combat stealth. Did you finally understand that? Yes? Good. Lets leave the fact that thief doesnt use in-combat stealth as that, as well as the fact that shadows embrace is used only for concealing restoration and is still better than hidden thief.

Could you post some pic with the burst of Barrage ? So i wont underestimate it on my que ?

Too much effort, cant be bothered.

I am sure 100% that that team with the those 2x Thieves that made it to the final 8 , they used Heartseeker+ Powder for stealth , when they where 50% hp . While the other maintain the pressure . Or like other thieves from other teams .

The only one I saw did not use it in-combat. When they wanted to get out, they did like any good thief does, and shortbow 5 out. If they tried to BP + Heartseeker for stealth when they were at 50%, they wouldve just died.

Not all classes punish you while you do the stealth combo , and the 90% of the majority are Bunkers . In lower tiers where everyone is wearing Berseker amulets , they might punish the thief for trying to stealth up . But the current meta is Bunker-Condition

Incorrect. All classes punish you when doing the stealth combo. Most arent bunkers. Condi isnt meta (hence why condi thief was such an upset). In lower tiers, people use stealth, because the thieves are bad and dont know its bad, and the enemies are bad and dont punish it. In high level, they do not ever use stealth mid-combat.

Hence they stealth up and use the Shadow Embrace trait

Incorrect. They do not stealth up, and shadows embrace is used exclusively for concealing restoration. As I have explained, both of these are undeniable facts. You can look at all of Sindreners games, you will see he does not ever stealth up mid-combat. For this exact same reason. And he still uses Shadows Embrace. Because its still better than hidden thief. Is the fact that these are undeniable facts finally clear to you? Because I would like to not have to repeat myself just because you want to believe that thieves use in-combat stealth, despite it being undeniable fact that they do not.

First of all thieves have Dash also , which is free if they are going to escape .

Dash alone wont get you far. You need shortbow.

And secondary you should watch the Tournament stream , you might take some ideas about the tricks on stealthing in-game .Or meet me ingame

So youre gonna make me repeat myself. In the combat, they didnt use stealth mid-combat. Full stop. They did not use it. Well, other than the exact one exception I have already listed and wont repeat. I dont need "ideas to stealth mid-combat", because unlike you, I know that its bad, and that good thieves dont use it. Well, not that I need it, I dont play thief.

If in lower levels , the people dont know how to punish a person stealthing , while in higher tiers people using D/P combo to stealth in combat . So the premish that people avoiding stealth , its no true :)

That is a lie. In higher tiers people
NEVER
stealth mid-combat. Let me repeat myself so that it gets through to you finally. They.
Never
. Stealth. Mid. Combat. Again, just take a look at Sindrener. If you watch his videos and keep track, you will find that in the vast majority of games he plays, he stealths mid-combat exactly
0
times. Thats right, not at all. In
rare
games he stealths once. Maybe twice. In
NO
game whatsoever does he stealth mid-combat regularly. So, the premise that people avoid stealth is absolutely true, despite your insistence to disgregard the truth.

450 yards , 0 cost , vs 600 yards half resources , well there is no contest on which to chooseIf you add them up , well you have more mobility that Vanilia i believe .

Shortbow is 900 units, not 600. It also is much faster than Dash. There is indeed no contest on which to choose, the answer is Shortbow 5,
always
.

The thieves used ingame combat to survive , you should watch the Tournaments , rather than go in circles .

I did watch it. They didnt. They never used in-combat stealth to survive, because if would achieve the exact opposite. It would ensure their death.

Its ok , if you don't know some things , you don't to insist something that is not true . People are using stealth in high and low tiers . Its not underpowered beyond redemption as you are saying . You haven't simply don't know some high level tricks

It is ok if I dont know somethings. This is not one of them. I know it. You clearly do not, yet try to talk as if you have the faintest clue. People do not use in-combat stealth in high tiers (they do use out of combat stealth). Full stop. This is undeniable fact. You can deny this if you want, but know that it doesnt make the truth less true. It just makes you no different from a flat earther. So if you deny it once more despite the fact that its true, I will assume you indeed are one, and disregard you. It is underpowered, hence why its not used.

But in the vain hope that this will finally get through to you, answer me this. If in-combat stealth is so great. If its supposedly used in higher tiers. How comes Sindrener, the best thief in the game (not that there is much competition nowadays)
NEVER
uses it. Unless you can answer that question you need to accept that the premise, and your belief that stealth is good, is wrong. Oh and to save you the trouble, you cant answer it. The premise and your belief are just wrong.

I am sorry again , but you are wrong . You should give it a chance and see the Tournament .

I am not. I did watch it. I saw that you simply lied.

The majority of the classes and in the Meta are Bunkers , they don't have the firepower to 1-shot you in stealth .

They are not. This too is a lie.

Heh .. even you had said that in lower tier people don't know how to counter it . Give it a try , just watch the tournament or some youtube video about tricks of stealth

I did. The number 1 trick about stealth every thief learns is "never use stealth mid-combat". You should learn that too. And I see you avoided the Sindrener Question. Realising you have no answer? Of course you dont. Youre wrong, but clearly unwilling to accept it. But the fact that in-combat stealth is bad and never used by the highest tier players is undeniable and irrefutable. So lets leave it at that. That is fact, you deny that fact, making you no different from someone denying that the earth is round (or rather an ellipsoid).

I am sorry , but you really have to see that Thiefs use the in-combat stealth in those Tournaments .

I cant see what isnt there. Unless you call "exiting the fight, getting outside of the enemy range, and then stealthing up" in-combat stealth. Which it is not.

We are started as noobs , but we got better with watching others

Something you should take to heart. You should watch good thieves. See how they dont use in-combat stealth. You could learn a lot from that.

Give it a try .Other people found a way to use stealth as a tactic , dont be afraid to improve yourself

They didnt. What people found is that out of combat stealth is great. But for in-combat, they found that the best tactic is to
NEVER
use it. The ultimate improvement any thief can obtain is to stop using stealth mid-combat like a complete idiot. Hence why, as I said, Sindrener doesnt ever use it. And once again you ignore the Sindrener question. At this point I have to assume that youre either trolling, or so invested in the lie you want to believe that the truth will never get through to you. Doesnt matter. The fact that in-combat stealth is bad and never used by high tier thieves is undeniable. People can check it themselves by watching Sindrener. Your refusal to accept the truth has no relevance.

I mean , using Black Powder +Heartseeker after they hit the enemy and they are near him and try to escape , it doesnt sound as out of combat .

Correct. They didnt do that.

You should watch the tournament , it will resolve and improve somewhat your skills .

I did. I saw that you lied. Hence why I called you out on it.

Btw : which streamer said ''never use stealth mid-combat'' ?Sindrener ?Is he the one currupting the youth , with his sexy body ?

None of them say it. Because they assume their viewers are good enough to understand themselves why in-combat stealth is bad. However, what they dont say, they show. As I said. Take any Sindrener video. See how often he stealths in-combat during the game. The answer is almost always
0
, rarely 1,
never
regularly. If in-combat stealth is so great, why is it that he never uses it? Oh I know the answer. Its not great. Its awful. And he doesnt use it because its awful.

But Im getting tired of repeating the same thing over and over, hoping that you accept the truth at any point. So I will leave it off here. Youre free to deny the undeniable truth that in-combat stealth is bad and not used by good thief players. Please, do use in-combat stealth. Your enemies will be very happy. And maybe Ill get lucky and have you as my enemy so I can abuse the fact that youre not good enough to understand why in-combat stealth is so useless.

I am sorry , but you have to watch the stream , even the team with those 2x thieves that went far + mid .

I did. They still didnt do it.

If none said that ''never use stealth mid-combat'' and many have used in the tournaments , maybe ...just maybe you are immagining things and created your own false theory that people should not stealth ?

Oh plenty of people have said it. But its old knowledge. Not worth repeating if weve known it for 4+ years, is it? Just like you dont say "dodge the eviscerate". Or "use shadowstep for safe stomping". Almost none have used it in tournaments, and the few that did, didnt get far. And you
still
refuse to answer why Sindrener isnt using in-combat stealth. Maybe youre starting to doubt your lie. Keep thinking about that fact. If its so good, why does he not use it? In fact, Vallun doesnt either. None of the best thieves ever use in-combat stealth.
Why?

See the Tournament , i cannot help you to improve if you cant watch it . Theres some interested mechanics that i am trying to learn for my Mesmer .Which people (plenty as you said) told you ''dont use in-game stealth''? In which thread ?

How many times do I have to repeat myself. I. DID. WATCH. IT. It does not show what you want it to show. Also, which people have said "dont use in-combat stealth" (not in-game, you use out of combat stealth, just not in-combat stealth)? Well, every single good thief who has ever played the game after 2015. Prior to 2015 we hadnt figured that out yet. That includes Sindrener. That includes Toker. And even every thief that wasnt a top tier thief. Its common knowledge.

Watch the video of the Vallun , its here in the PvP section

The one where he uses in-combat stealth a grand total of
once
, and got lucky that the enemy Ranger was too slow to react because otherwise he wouldve died? That ... just further disproves your point. Not only does he not use in-combat stealth, the one time he did, if he didnt get lucky, it wouldve lead to his death.

First of all re-watch it . You had skipped a lot

I skipped nothing. Stop with the lie.

What was the 2015 name that told you , not to use stealth mid-combat ?

I already listed 2 names, who just happen to be the 2 best thieves in the world. But you keep ignoring the fact that the top tier thieves never use in-combat stealth. Why? Is that fact perhaps inconvenient to your lie? For the love of god, know when youre beaten. There is an overwhelming amount of evidence clearly proving that in-combat stealth is really bad. There is nothing, not even the single, smallest, tiniest thing that backs up your lie. Just accept that youre wrong. Accept the undeniable fact that in-combat stealth is bad, and good thieves dont use it. Dont waste my time, your time, and everyone elses time. Got it?

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