THIEF IS FINE

[Leonidrex.5649]

@PLS.4095 said:RIP Swagg, victim of Thief since 2012.

by looking at the old footage everyone was the victim of thief in 2k12

[UNOwen.7132]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@PLS.4095 said:RIP Swagg, victim of Thief since 2012.

by looking at the old footage everyone was the victim of thief in 2k12

Back in 2012 people also hadnt figured out the game at all. I mean, the best thief build was D/D. Which went from the best to the worst despite only getting buffs.

[UNOwen.7132]

@"Swagg.9236" said:Thief has never been fine. It was in meta-tier from 2012 due to the fact that it either started with or quickly gained access to the most broken abilities in GW2: stealth, teleporting and attacking while mitigating incoming damage (either by evading or by simultaneously inflicting blindness). Moreover, due to the class' sole respective access to Initiative, Thief can repeatedly use many of these skills in oppressive strings which allot them an impunity to combat which no other class could replicate. If a Thief had to peel from a fight, it would peel; and it would consistently flee and teleport around until it found a fight that it simply would win. It's not just an anti-fun, passive playstyle; it's one which cannot be countered by conventional play exhibited by the rest of the class base.

Except for most of HoT, where it wasnt even viable. And parts of PoF. Ok so, thief was meta about half of the time, which is less than some other professions. Also, other classes have every one of those things you mention except stealth, and thieves didnt use stealth for the majority of their time in the spotlight.

What this did for GW2 at large is that, with constant, incremental buffs alongside the introduction of Elite Specializations, every other class in the game slowly became more and more Thief-like in order to compete. Classes inflicted damage more quickly; they started moving around the field faster; and their damage grew higher and higher within the spans of invulnerability which they could now chain together during combat. Thief has never been adequately addressed as an oppressive outlier hiding within a band of 7 (now 8) other classes. Instead of addressing what made Thief fundamentally broken and just re-designing things around it, Anet threw SO MANY BANDAIDS over the severed femoral artery that is "bAlaNCe bY cOOldOWn" that, without any sort of resource mechanic to balance skill use, other classes started competing with Thief due to the sheer value that they received from pressing any given button.

Oh please. If other classes became more thief-like we wouldve had reverse powercreep as everyone slowly loses all their damage and survivability and is stuck running away from any fight that they dont outnumber. Other classes didnt "start to compete with thief", they had been far stronger for a long time. I mean just look at ele. Teams ran 3+ eles on the same team all the way back in 2015.

This whole conversation has nothing to do with people who play like to play Thief or really Thief in general. Thief is mostly fine but ONLY IF every other class in the game can affect the field in a flow-based way which Initiative allows: multiple instances of the same attack and repeat replication of certain combos. Since nobody can do that except Thief, fighting against any class as a Thief is mostly just a "on-the-rails" schema which mainly involves playing footsies with an opponent's cooldowns rather than really challenging anyone on a mental level. If the rest of the class line-up had the opportunity to mix-up attacks rather than being bound by cooldowns, then we would see a much higher skill level in GW2.

Uh, no? I mean I dont even get why you think initiative is such a big strength, if anything for combat purposes its a big weakness. Sure, you can use the same attack several times in a row. But each individual attack is weaker than what others could use. And you can only use the one. No weaponswapping to get the other cooldowns. In the time a thief can chuck out 5 shadowshots, I will have gone through at least 15 or so cooldowns as an Engineer. Let alone an Ele.

tl;dr: Thief is broken, and Anet's solution was just to make every other class just as broken (except also without respective resource mechanics). If you really want Thief to be """OK""" then you just need to balance every class around Initiative and no/low cooldowns (and even if you do that, you basically turn Thief into the hollow shell that it always was from the outset: little more than flavor bait for certain personality markets and an advertisement for "HEY GUYS, WE HAVE INVISIBILITY NOW LOL!").

Thief isnt broken. The other classes didnt become "just as broken as thief" (they wouldve become weaker if that were the case). Anets solution was just to make thief incapable of 1v1ing.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Zoser.7245 said:Developers already said that the sustain is going to be nerfed where they consider it a outliner and some outliners in terms of damage too. Both will imply that thief will be indirectly profit it in both ways, being less weak against those outliners that hit too hard now and also, with less sustain, kill faster. If you do those things and also buff others, then we could end with other outliners. Do too many things at once will have undesirable colateral damage and bad results. Let them nerf first the sustain and outliners. Then, after the next settle, it could be the time to talk if something is underperforming to buff it or even rework it. Because some of the nerfs done before also had colateral damage making some things unfun to play now. And have fun is also important in a game, if you make it unfun nerfing the base mechanics and not capable of balance them in a better way, the only thing you are going to accomplish is make people reroll or even quit to play other game with the theme they want.

So for now, a bit of patience seems more reasonable and watch what happen in the next balance patch. With luck, maybe next week or if not, next month... It's not going to be a small patch, not if the sustain is involved, it'll be bigger than expected.

Buff and nerfs alternate themselves but the message in the OP video remains , majority of thief players simply cannot play at the skill level required to pull off d/p the way they want,

they should play less skill intensive builds

..and stop acting like sheep , after all there will never be enough sustain nerfs to guarantee easy kills for thieves at all levels, no patch will magically let bad players on thief become some sort of ninja gaiden lol...unless they nerf sustain of everybody else but thief to zero which ofc will never happen xd.

I recall you saying that thief and mesmer players had a god complex. Yet here you are, with the worst god complex I had ever seen. Yeesh. And no, the message is disproven by the video. You saw his success with D/P in the video, right? Or rather, lack thereof? He was pretty irrelevant that game, usually getting feared or running away, and doing only pathetic damage when he finally hit someone. The only time he was useful was when the Necro screwed up several times in a row.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:I've been saying that thief damage is good as long as you spec offensive stuff instead of defensive, giving the example of mesmer with defensive traitlines doing 9k power burst. Your core build is the perfect example of this.But apparently for some thieves is easier to beg ANerf for damage buffs instead of figuring this stuff out.

Mesmer does much more burst than 9k with defensive traitlines. Thief does less with 3 offensive traitlines. No, thief damage is pathetic. I mean, bloody hell, my Core Grenade Engineer build, which A, is not meta, and B, uses 2 defensive traitlines (Tools and Alchemy), does far more burst damage than his thief that runs full offense. Thats a bad sign.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:I've been saying that thief damage is good as long as you spec offensive stuff instead of defensive, giving the example of mesmer with defensive traitlines doing 9k power burst. Your core build is the perfect example of this.But apparently for some thieves is easier to beg ANerf for damage buffs instead of figuring this stuff out.

Mesmer does

much

more burst than 9k with defensive traitlines. Thief does less with 3 offensive traitlines. No, thief damage is pathetic. I mean, bloody hell, my Core Grenade Engineer build, which A, is not meta, and B, uses

2

defensive traitlines (Tools and Alchemy), does far more burst damage than his thief that runs full offense. Thats a

bad

sign.

https://imgur.com/a/TkSxzEZ

Don't know why I waste my time, already know the answer "liar, fabricated, photoshop yadda yadda nonsense nonsense nonsense"As for thief damage Vallun's video above prove it does fine damage as long as you spec offensive traitlines.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:I've been saying that thief damage is good as long as you spec offensive stuff instead of defensive, giving the example of mesmer with defensive traitlines doing 9k power burst. Your core build is the perfect example of this.But apparently for some thieves is easier to beg ANerf for damage buffs instead of figuring this stuff out.

Mesmer does

much

more burst than 9k with defensive traitlines. Thief does less with 3 offensive traitlines. No, thief damage is pathetic. I mean, bloody hell, my Core Grenade Engineer build, which A, is not meta, and B, uses

2

defensive traitlines (Tools and Alchemy), does far more burst damage than his thief that runs full offense. Thats a

bad

sign.

https://imgur.com/a/TkSxzEZ

Don't know why I waste my time, already know the answer "liar, fabricated, photoshop yadda yadda nonsense nonsense nonsense"As for thief damage Vallun's video above prove it does fine damage as long as you spec offensive traitlines.

I indeed do not know why you wasted time fabricating such an obvious joke of a screenshot. Standard build, Dueling 2 3 1, Domination 1 2 2, Chaos 3 1 2. Zerkers, scholars, compounding and exploitation, you know the drill. Mantra activated in advance so its might doesnt apply. Golem starts at above 50%, because otherwise several traits would be active. The damage is slightly higher than against a player potentially (Since the golem doesnt use any skills obviously, making shattered anguishs doubling apply). Here is the result. Notably, significantly higher than 9k. Its 15325 damage. There is also a power spike that just didnt fit in the combat log, but its only 350 damage so its irrelevant. And before you say "well thats because everything crit (ignoring that the same is true of the thief damage you liked to show)", the non-crit versions werent much lower. I think I got between 11k-12k on average.

And no, Valluns video proved the opposite. He had to spec 3 offensive traitlines (something no other class has to do), and the damage was still pathetic. 4-6k backstabs, with little else in terms of followup. Again, I play Core Engineer. I do over 2000 more burst damage while using 2 defensive traitlines. I could push it much higher if I too ran 3 offense traitlines.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:I've been saying that thief damage is good as long as you spec offensive stuff instead of defensive, giving the example of mesmer with defensive traitlines doing 9k power burst. Your core build is the perfect example of this.But apparently for some thieves is easier to beg ANerf for damage buffs instead of figuring this stuff out.

Mesmer does

much

more burst than 9k with defensive traitlines. Thief does less with 3 offensive traitlines. No, thief damage is pathetic. I mean, bloody hell, my Core Grenade Engineer build, which A, is not meta, and B, uses

2

defensive traitlines (Tools and Alchemy), does far more burst damage than his thief that runs full offense. Thats a

bad

sign.

https://imgur.com/a/TkSxzEZ

Don't know why I waste my time, already know the answer "liar, fabricated, photoshop yadda yadda nonsense nonsense nonsense"As for thief damage Vallun's video above prove it does fine damage as long as you spec offensive traitlines.

I indeed do not know why you wasted time fabricating such an obvious joke of a screenshot. Standard build, Dueling 2 3 1, Domination 1 2 2, Chaos 3 1 2. Zerkers, scholars, compounding and exploitation, you know the drill. Mantra activated in advance so its might doesnt apply. Golem starts at above 50%, because otherwise several traits would be active. The damage is slightly higher than against a player potentially (Since the golem doesnt use any skills obviously, making shattered anguishs doubling apply).

Here

is the result. Notably, significantly higher than 9k. Its 15325 damage. There is also a power spike that just didnt fit in the combat log, but its only 350 damage so its irrelevant. And before you say "well thats because everything crit (ignoring that the same is true of the thief damage you liked to show)", the non-crit versions werent much lower. I think I got between 11k-12k on average.

And no, Valluns video proved the opposite. He had to spec

3

offensive traitlines (something no other class has to do), and the damage was

still

pathetic. 4-6k backstabs, with little else in terms of followup. Again, I play Core Engineer. I do over 2000 more burst damage while using 2 defensive traitlines. I could push it much higher if I too ran 3 offense traitlines.

L2read maybe?I said defensive traits. Dom Duel are offensive.

5-6k backstabs on heavy is absolutely fine in the current game balance.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:I've been saying that thief damage is good as long as you spec offensive stuff instead of defensive, giving the example of mesmer with defensive traitlines doing 9k power burst. Your core build is the perfect example of this.But apparently for some thieves is easier to beg ANerf for damage buffs instead of figuring this stuff out.

Mesmer does

much

more burst than 9k with defensive traitlines. Thief does less with 3 offensive traitlines. No, thief damage is pathetic. I mean, bloody hell, my Core Grenade Engineer build, which A, is not meta, and B, uses

2

defensive traitlines (Tools and Alchemy), does far more burst damage than his thief that runs full offense. Thats a

bad

sign.

https://imgur.com/a/TkSxzEZ

Don't know why I waste my time, already know the answer "liar, fabricated, photoshop yadda yadda nonsense nonsense nonsense"As for thief damage Vallun's video above prove it does fine damage as long as you spec offensive traitlines.

I indeed do not know why you wasted time fabricating such an obvious joke of a screenshot. Standard build, Dueling 2 3 1, Domination 1 2 2, Chaos 3 1 2. Zerkers, scholars, compounding and exploitation, you know the drill. Mantra activated in advance so its might doesnt apply. Golem starts at above 50%, because otherwise several traits would be active. The damage is slightly higher than against a player potentially (Since the golem doesnt use any skills obviously, making shattered anguishs doubling apply).

Here

is the result. Notably, significantly higher than 9k. Its 15325 damage. There is also a power spike that just didnt fit in the combat log, but its only 350 damage so its irrelevant. And before you say "well thats because everything crit (ignoring that the same is true of the thief damage you liked to show)", the non-crit versions werent much lower. I think I got between 11k-12k on average.

And no, Valluns video proved the opposite. He had to spec

3

offensive traitlines (something no other class has to do), and the damage was

still

pathetic. 4-6k backstabs, with little else in terms of followup. Again, I play Core Engineer. I do over 2000 more burst damage while using 2 defensive traitlines. I could push it much higher if I too ran 3 offense traitlines.

L2read maybe?I said defensive traits. Dom Duel are offensive.

5-6k backstabs on heavy is absolutely fine in the current game balance.

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:I've been saying that thief damage is good as long as you spec offensive stuff instead of defensive, giving the example of mesmer with defensive traitlines doing 9k power burst. Your core build is the perfect example of this.But apparently for some thieves is easier to beg ANerf for damage buffs instead of figuring this stuff out.

Mesmer does

much

more burst than 9k with defensive traitlines. Thief does less with 3 offensive traitlines. No, thief damage is pathetic. I mean, bloody hell, my Core Grenade Engineer build, which A, is not meta, and B, uses

2

defensive traitlines (Tools and Alchemy), does far more burst damage than his thief that runs full offense. Thats a

bad

sign.

https://imgur.com/a/TkSxzEZ

Don't know why I waste my time, already know the answer "liar, fabricated, photoshop yadda yadda nonsense nonsense nonsense"As for thief damage Vallun's video above prove it does fine damage as long as you spec offensive traitlines.

I indeed do not know why you wasted time fabricating such an obvious joke of a screenshot. Standard build, Dueling 2 3 1, Domination 1 2 2, Chaos 3 1 2. Zerkers, scholars, compounding and exploitation, you know the drill. Mantra activated in advance so its might doesnt apply. Golem starts at above 50%, because otherwise several traits would be active. The damage is slightly higher than against a player potentially (Since the golem doesnt use any skills obviously, making shattered anguishs doubling apply).

Here

is the result. Notably, significantly higher than 9k. Its 15325 damage. There is also a power spike that just didnt fit in the combat log, but its only 350 damage so its irrelevant. And before you say "well thats because everything crit (ignoring that the same is true of the thief damage you liked to show)", the non-crit versions werent much lower. I think I got between 11k-12k on average.

And no, Valluns video proved the opposite. He had to spec

3

offensive traitlines (something no other class has to do), and the damage was

still

pathetic. 4-6k backstabs, with little else in terms of followup. Again, I play Core Engineer. I do over 2000 more burst damage while using 2 defensive traitlines. I could push it much higher if I too ran 3 offense traitlines.

L2read maybe?I said defensive traits. Dom Duel are offensive.

And chaos isnt. Even Dueling is half-half. Its still more defensive traitlines than the DD SA Trickery thief. What, did you show Mesmer with 3 defensive traitlines there (actually, looking at the damage that appears to be exactly what it is). Your suggestion is that thief damage is fine because DD SA Trickery thief does only slightly less burst than a full defense Mesmer? Hah.

5-6k backstabs on heavy is absolutely fine in the current game balance.

Oh no its 6k on light, maybe medium. On heavy its 4k. Thats absolutely pathetic in the current game balance. Even by thief standards.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:I've been saying that thief damage is good as long as you spec offensive stuff instead of defensive, giving the example of mesmer with defensive traitlines doing 9k power burst. Your core build is the perfect example of this.But apparently for some thieves is easier to beg ANerf for damage buffs instead of figuring this stuff out.

Mesmer does

much

more burst than 9k with defensive traitlines. Thief does less with 3 offensive traitlines. No, thief damage is pathetic. I mean, bloody hell, my Core Grenade Engineer build, which A, is not meta, and B, uses

2

defensive traitlines (Tools and Alchemy), does far more burst damage than his thief that runs full offense. Thats a

bad

sign.

https://imgur.com/a/TkSxzEZ

Don't know why I waste my time, already know the answer "liar, fabricated, photoshop yadda yadda nonsense nonsense nonsense"As for thief damage Vallun's video above prove it does fine damage as long as you spec offensive traitlines.

I indeed do not know why you wasted time fabricating such an obvious joke of a screenshot. Standard build, Dueling 2 3 1, Domination 1 2 2, Chaos 3 1 2. Zerkers, scholars, compounding and exploitation, you know the drill. Mantra activated in advance so its might doesnt apply. Golem starts at above 50%, because otherwise several traits would be active. The damage is slightly higher than against a player potentially (Since the golem doesnt use any skills obviously, making shattered anguishs doubling apply).

Here

is the result. Notably, significantly higher than 9k. Its 15325 damage. There is also a power spike that just didnt fit in the combat log, but its only 350 damage so its irrelevant. And before you say "well thats because everything crit (ignoring that the same is true of the thief damage you liked to show)", the non-crit versions werent much lower. I think I got between 11k-12k on average.

And no, Valluns video proved the opposite. He had to spec

3

offensive traitlines (something no other class has to do), and the damage was

still

pathetic. 4-6k backstabs, with little else in terms of followup. Again, I play Core Engineer. I do over 2000 more burst damage while using 2 defensive traitlines. I could push it much higher if I too ran 3 offense traitlines.

Man like I said just roll and main ur engie, u obviously don't like how thief is now and there's no point in forcing ur self to play it. Leave thief behind to vallun etc, let them have thief since the like the class as is and enjoy ur time on engie. U gotta be getting tired of arguing with players who only know what they here about a class or what they see when they fight it lol. Everyone in these forums are experts of balancing when it comes to classes they know little about, dislike fighting against and especially the ones they don't even play lol.Just enjoy ur time on engie and let the class be what it is to those that still like it like vallun etc.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:I've been saying that thief damage is good as long as you spec offensive stuff instead of defensive, giving the example of mesmer with defensive traitlines doing 9k power burst. Your core build is the perfect example of this.But apparently for some thieves is easier to beg ANerf for damage buffs instead of figuring this stuff out.

Mesmer does

much

more burst than 9k with defensive traitlines. Thief does less with 3 offensive traitlines. No, thief damage is pathetic. I mean, bloody hell, my Core Grenade Engineer build, which A, is not meta, and B, uses

2

defensive traitlines (Tools and Alchemy), does far more burst damage than his thief that runs full offense. Thats a

bad

sign.

https://imgur.com/a/TkSxzEZ

Don't know why I waste my time, already know the answer "liar, fabricated, photoshop yadda yadda nonsense nonsense nonsense"As for thief damage Vallun's video above prove it does fine damage as long as you spec offensive traitlines.

I indeed do not know why you wasted time fabricating such an obvious joke of a screenshot. Standard build, Dueling 2 3 1, Domination 1 2 2, Chaos 3 1 2. Zerkers, scholars, compounding and exploitation, you know the drill. Mantra activated in advance so its might doesnt apply. Golem starts at above 50%, because otherwise several traits would be active. The damage is slightly higher than against a player potentially (Since the golem doesnt use any skills obviously, making shattered anguishs doubling apply).

Here

is the result. Notably, significantly higher than 9k. Its 15325 damage. There is also a power spike that just didnt fit in the combat log, but its only 350 damage so its irrelevant. And before you say "well thats because everything crit (ignoring that the same is true of the thief damage you liked to show)", the non-crit versions werent much lower. I think I got between 11k-12k on average.

And no, Valluns video proved the opposite. He had to spec

3

offensive traitlines (something no other class has to do), and the damage was

still

pathetic. 4-6k backstabs, with little else in terms of followup. Again, I play Core Engineer. I do over 2000 more burst damage while using 2 defensive traitlines. I could push it much higher if I too ran 3 offense traitlines.

Man like I said just roll and main ur engie, u obviously don't like how thief is now and there's no point in forcing ur self to play it. Leave thief behind to vallun etc, let them have thief since the like the class as is and enjoy ur time on engie. U gotta be getting tired of arguing with players who only know what they here about a class or what they see when they fight it lol. Everyone in these forums are experts of balancing when it comes to classes they know little about, dislike fighting against and especially the ones they don't even play lol.Just enjoy ur time on engie and let the class be what it is to those that still like it like vallun etc.

I have. That doesnt mean I wont point out wrong things. But, perhaps you are right. Ill just start playing Rev and Fat Thief instead.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:I've been saying that thief damage is good as long as you spec offensive stuff instead of defensive, giving the example of mesmer with defensive traitlines doing 9k power burst. Your core build is the perfect example of this.But apparently for some thieves is easier to beg ANerf for damage buffs instead of figuring this stuff out.

Mesmer does

much

more burst than 9k with defensive traitlines. Thief does less with 3 offensive traitlines. No, thief damage is pathetic. I mean, bloody hell, my Core Grenade Engineer build, which A, is not meta, and B, uses

2

defensive traitlines (Tools and Alchemy), does far more burst damage than his thief that runs full offense. Thats a

bad

sign.

https://imgur.com/a/TkSxzEZ

Don't know why I waste my time, already know the answer "liar, fabricated, photoshop yadda yadda nonsense nonsense nonsense"As for thief damage Vallun's video above prove it does fine damage as long as you spec offensive traitlines.

I indeed do not know why you wasted time fabricating such an obvious joke of a screenshot. Standard build, Dueling 2 3 1, Domination 1 2 2, Chaos 3 1 2. Zerkers, scholars, compounding and exploitation, you know the drill. Mantra activated in advance so its might doesnt apply. Golem starts at above 50%, because otherwise several traits would be active. The damage is slightly higher than against a player potentially (Since the golem doesnt use any skills obviously, making shattered anguishs doubling apply).

Here

is the result. Notably, significantly higher than 9k. Its 15325 damage. There is also a power spike that just didnt fit in the combat log, but its only 350 damage so its irrelevant. And before you say "well thats because everything crit (ignoring that the same is true of the thief damage you liked to show)", the non-crit versions werent much lower. I think I got between 11k-12k on average.

And no, Valluns video proved the opposite. He had to spec

3

offensive traitlines (something no other class has to do), and the damage was

still

pathetic. 4-6k backstabs, with little else in terms of followup. Again, I play Core Engineer. I do over 2000 more burst damage while using 2 defensive traitlines. I could push it much higher if I too ran 3 offense traitlines.

Man like I said just roll and main ur engie, u obviously don't like how thief is now and there's no point in forcing ur self to play it. Leave thief behind to vallun etc, let them have thief since the like the class as is and enjoy ur time on engie. U gotta be getting tired of arguing with players who only know what they here about a class or what they see when they fight it lol. Everyone in these forums are experts of balancing when it comes to classes they know little about, dislike fighting against and especially the ones they don't even play lol.Just enjoy ur time on engie and let the class be what it is to those that still like it like vallun etc.

I have. That doesnt mean I wont point out wrong things. But, perhaps you are right. Ill just start playing Rev and Fat Thief instead.

Yeah man good idea, ull enjoy ur time more, I mean I may even join the nerf thief players to keep em farmable on my rev lol.If all the thief busts hyperbole matter little to u cuz the class is in ur past u can focus on the rare decent threads in these forums.If some thief players like thief as it is let them have it man lol.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:I've been saying that thief damage is good as long as you spec offensive stuff instead of defensive, giving the example of mesmer with defensive traitlines doing 9k power burst. Your core build is the perfect example of this.But apparently for some thieves is easier to beg ANerf for damage buffs instead of figuring this stuff out.

Mesmer does

much

more burst than 9k with defensive traitlines. Thief does less with 3 offensive traitlines. No, thief damage is pathetic. I mean, bloody hell, my Core Grenade Engineer build, which A, is not meta, and B, uses

2

defensive traitlines (Tools and Alchemy), does far more burst damage than his thief that runs full offense. Thats a

bad

sign.

https://imgur.com/a/TkSxzEZ

Don't know why I waste my time, already know the answer "liar, fabricated, photoshop yadda yadda nonsense nonsense nonsense"As for thief damage Vallun's video above prove it does fine damage as long as you spec offensive traitlines.

I indeed do not know why you wasted time fabricating such an obvious joke of a screenshot. Standard build, Dueling 2 3 1, Domination 1 2 2, Chaos 3 1 2. Zerkers, scholars, compounding and exploitation, you know the drill. Mantra activated in advance so its might doesnt apply. Golem starts at above 50%, because otherwise several traits would be active. The damage is slightly higher than against a player potentially (Since the golem doesnt use any skills obviously, making shattered anguishs doubling apply).

Here

is the result. Notably, significantly higher than 9k. Its 15325 damage. There is also a power spike that just didnt fit in the combat log, but its only 350 damage so its irrelevant. And before you say "well thats because everything crit (ignoring that the same is true of the thief damage you liked to show)", the non-crit versions werent much lower. I think I got between 11k-12k on average.

And no, Valluns video proved the opposite. He had to spec

3

offensive traitlines (something no other class has to do), and the damage was

still

pathetic. 4-6k backstabs, with little else in terms of followup. Again, I play Core Engineer. I do over 2000 more burst damage while using 2 defensive traitlines. I could push it much higher if I too ran 3 offense traitlines.

L2read maybe?I said defensive traits. Dom Duel are offensive.

5-6k backstabs on heavy is absolutely fine in the current game balance.

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:I've been saying that thief damage is good as long as you spec offensive stuff instead of defensive, giving the example of mesmer with defensive traitlines doing 9k power burst. Your core build is the perfect example of this.But apparently for some thieves is easier to beg ANerf for damage buffs instead of figuring this stuff out.

Mesmer does

much

more burst than 9k with defensive traitlines. Thief does less with 3 offensive traitlines. No, thief damage is pathetic. I mean, bloody hell, my Core Grenade Engineer build, which A, is not meta, and B, uses

2

defensive traitlines (Tools and Alchemy), does far more burst damage than his thief that runs full offense. Thats a

bad

sign.

https://imgur.com/a/TkSxzEZ

Don't know why I waste my time, already know the answer "liar, fabricated, photoshop yadda yadda nonsense nonsense nonsense"As for thief damage Vallun's video above prove it does fine damage as long as you spec offensive traitlines.

I indeed do not know why you wasted time fabricating such an obvious joke of a screenshot. Standard build, Dueling 2 3 1, Domination 1 2 2, Chaos 3 1 2. Zerkers, scholars, compounding and exploitation, you know the drill. Mantra activated in advance so its might doesnt apply. Golem starts at above 50%, because otherwise several traits would be active. The damage is slightly higher than against a player potentially (Since the golem doesnt use any skills obviously, making shattered anguishs doubling apply).

Here

is the result. Notably, significantly higher than 9k. Its 15325 damage. There is also a power spike that just didnt fit in the combat log, but its only 350 damage so its irrelevant. And before you say "well thats because everything crit (ignoring that the same is true of the thief damage you liked to show)", the non-crit versions werent much lower. I think I got between 11k-12k on average.

And no, Valluns video proved the opposite. He had to spec

3

offensive traitlines (something no other class has to do), and the damage was

still

pathetic. 4-6k backstabs, with little else in terms of followup. Again, I play Core Engineer. I do over 2000 more burst damage while using 2 defensive traitlines. I could push it much higher if I too ran 3 offense traitlines.

L2read maybe?I said defensive traits. Dom Duel are offensive.

And chaos isnt. Even Dueling is half-half. Its still more defensive traitlines than the DD SA Trickery thief. What, did you show Mesmer with

3

defensive traitlines there (actually, looking at the damage that appears to be exactly what it is). Your suggestion is that thief damage is fine because DD SA Trickery thief does only slightly less burst than a full defense Mesmer? Hah.

5-6k backstabs on heavy is absolutely fine in the current game balance.

Oh no its 6k on light,

maybe

medium. On heavy its 4k. Thats absolutely

pathetic

in the current game balance. Even by thief standards.

Chaos is offensive?!

No, my point is if you want damage you should spec offensive traitlines. Like the core build on Vallun's video.

Again see Vallun's videos, 5k on heavy at 10min50

[UNOwen.7132]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:I've been saying that thief damage is good as long as you spec offensive stuff instead of defensive, giving the example of mesmer with defensive traitlines doing 9k power burst. Your core build is the perfect example of this.But apparently for some thieves is easier to beg ANerf for damage buffs instead of figuring this stuff out.

Mesmer does

much

more burst than 9k with defensive traitlines. Thief does less with 3 offensive traitlines. No, thief damage is pathetic. I mean, bloody hell, my Core Grenade Engineer build, which A, is not meta, and B, uses

2

defensive traitlines (Tools and Alchemy), does far more burst damage than his thief that runs full offense. Thats a

bad

sign.

https://imgur.com/a/TkSxzEZ

Don't know why I waste my time, already know the answer "liar, fabricated, photoshop yadda yadda nonsense nonsense nonsense"As for thief damage Vallun's video above prove it does fine damage as long as you spec offensive traitlines.

I indeed do not know why you wasted time fabricating such an obvious joke of a screenshot. Standard build, Dueling 2 3 1, Domination 1 2 2, Chaos 3 1 2. Zerkers, scholars, compounding and exploitation, you know the drill. Mantra activated in advance so its might doesnt apply. Golem starts at above 50%, because otherwise several traits would be active. The damage is slightly higher than against a player potentially (Since the golem doesnt use any skills obviously, making shattered anguishs doubling apply).

Here

is the result. Notably, significantly higher than 9k. Its 15325 damage. There is also a power spike that just didnt fit in the combat log, but its only 350 damage so its irrelevant. And before you say "well thats because everything crit (ignoring that the same is true of the thief damage you liked to show)", the non-crit versions werent much lower. I think I got between 11k-12k on average.

And no, Valluns video proved the opposite. He had to spec

3

offensive traitlines (something no other class has to do), and the damage was

still

pathetic. 4-6k backstabs, with little else in terms of followup. Again, I play Core Engineer. I do over 2000 more burst damage while using 2 defensive traitlines. I could push it much higher if I too ran 3 offense traitlines.

L2read maybe?I said defensive traits. Dom Duel are offensive.

5-6k backstabs on heavy is absolutely fine in the current game balance.

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:I've been saying that thief damage is good as long as you spec offensive stuff instead of defensive, giving the example of mesmer with defensive traitlines doing 9k power burst. Your core build is the perfect example of this.But apparently for some thieves is easier to beg ANerf for damage buffs instead of figuring this stuff out.

Mesmer does

much

more burst than 9k with defensive traitlines. Thief does less with 3 offensive traitlines. No, thief damage is pathetic. I mean, bloody hell, my Core Grenade Engineer build, which A, is not meta, and B, uses

2

defensive traitlines (Tools and Alchemy), does far more burst damage than his thief that runs full offense. Thats a

bad

sign.

https://imgur.com/a/TkSxzEZ

Don't know why I waste my time, already know the answer "liar, fabricated, photoshop yadda yadda nonsense nonsense nonsense"As for thief damage Vallun's video above prove it does fine damage as long as you spec offensive traitlines.

I indeed do not know why you wasted time fabricating such an obvious joke of a screenshot. Standard build, Dueling 2 3 1, Domination 1 2 2, Chaos 3 1 2. Zerkers, scholars, compounding and exploitation, you know the drill. Mantra activated in advance so its might doesnt apply. Golem starts at above 50%, because otherwise several traits would be active. The damage is slightly higher than against a player potentially (Since the golem doesnt use any skills obviously, making shattered anguishs doubling apply).

Here

is the result. Notably, significantly higher than 9k. Its 15325 damage. There is also a power spike that just didnt fit in the combat log, but its only 350 damage so its irrelevant. And before you say "well thats because everything crit (ignoring that the same is true of the thief damage you liked to show)", the non-crit versions werent much lower. I think I got between 11k-12k on average.

And no, Valluns video proved the opposite. He had to spec

3

offensive traitlines (something no other class has to do), and the damage was

still

pathetic. 4-6k backstabs, with little else in terms of followup. Again, I play Core Engineer. I do over 2000 more burst damage while using 2 defensive traitlines. I could push it much higher if I too ran 3 offense traitlines.

L2read maybe?I said defensive traits. Dom Duel are offensive.

And chaos isnt. Even Dueling is half-half. Its still more defensive traitlines than the DD SA Trickery thief. What, did you show Mesmer with

3

defensive traitlines there (actually, looking at the damage that appears to be exactly what it is). Your suggestion is that thief damage is fine because DD SA Trickery thief does only slightly less burst than a full defense Mesmer? Hah.

5-6k backstabs on heavy is absolutely fine in the current game balance.

Oh no its 6k on light,

maybe

medium. On heavy its 4k. Thats absolutely

pathetic

in the current game balance. Even by thief standards.

Chaos is offensive?!

The traitline that features only 1 damage amplifying trait, which is for condi and as such not used for power, is offensive? What?

No, my point is if you want damage you should spec offensive traitlines. Like the core build on Vallun's video.

Except thief already specs more offensive traitlines than anyone else. They still do jack all damage. Even when they spec 3 offensive traitlines. Again, something no other class does. Even then do they not do as much damage as other classes do with 1 offensive traitline. So your point is basically "thief shouldnt do damage even if they go max glass cannon".

Again see Vallun's videos, 5k on heavy at 10min50

On a golem, with the full black powder damage combo that amps damage by more than a realistic scenario would allow. And with max stacked lead attacks (rather than the typical 0). Not in an actual game. There its indeed around 4k.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Vallun vid clearly shows thief is still kinda broken. With all the access to teleports,stealth evades he was still doing to much damage especially if running trick/DA/CS. Thief still has some things still overperforming like smoke screen being bit to low of CD, tele's should be shorter range, stealth should be capped at 3 sec non stackable. Skills like sw2 should also get ini increases especially on the return to balance out the play making ability it has. Thief party elite was clearly shown to be op in vallun's vid, 300 sec CD would be more appropriate.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:I've been saying that thief damage is good as long as you spec offensive stuff instead of defensive, giving the example of mesmer with defensive traitlines doing 9k power burst. Your core build is the perfect example of this.But apparently for some thieves is easier to beg ANerf for damage buffs instead of figuring this stuff out.

Mesmer does

much

more burst than 9k with defensive traitlines. Thief does less with 3 offensive traitlines. No, thief damage is pathetic. I mean, bloody hell, my Core Grenade Engineer build, which A, is not meta, and B, uses

2

defensive traitlines (Tools and Alchemy), does far more burst damage than his thief that runs full offense. Thats a

bad

sign.

https://imgur.com/a/TkSxzEZ

Don't know why I waste my time, already know the answer "liar, fabricated, photoshop yadda yadda nonsense nonsense nonsense"As for thief damage Vallun's video above prove it does fine damage as long as you spec offensive traitlines.

I indeed do not know why you wasted time fabricating such an obvious joke of a screenshot. Standard build, Dueling 2 3 1, Domination 1 2 2, Chaos 3 1 2. Zerkers, scholars, compounding and exploitation, you know the drill. Mantra activated in advance so its might doesnt apply. Golem starts at above 50%, because otherwise several traits would be active. The damage is slightly higher than against a player potentially (Since the golem doesnt use any skills obviously, making shattered anguishs doubling apply).

Here

is the result. Notably, significantly higher than 9k. Its 15325 damage. There is also a power spike that just didnt fit in the combat log, but its only 350 damage so its irrelevant. And before you say "well thats because everything crit (ignoring that the same is true of the thief damage you liked to show)", the non-crit versions werent much lower. I think I got between 11k-12k on average.

And no, Valluns video proved the opposite. He had to spec

3

offensive traitlines (something no other class has to do), and the damage was

still

pathetic. 4-6k backstabs, with little else in terms of followup. Again, I play Core Engineer. I do over 2000 more burst damage while using 2 defensive traitlines. I could push it much higher if I too ran 3 offense traitlines.

L2read maybe?I said defensive traits. Dom Duel are offensive.

5-6k backstabs on heavy is absolutely fine in the current game balance.

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:I've been saying that thief damage is good as long as you spec offensive stuff instead of defensive, giving the example of mesmer with defensive traitlines doing 9k power burst. Your core build is the perfect example of this.But apparently for some thieves is easier to beg ANerf for damage buffs instead of figuring this stuff out.

Mesmer does

much

more burst than 9k with defensive traitlines. Thief does less with 3 offensive traitlines. No, thief damage is pathetic. I mean, bloody hell, my Core Grenade Engineer build, which A, is not meta, and B, uses

2

defensive traitlines (Tools and Alchemy), does far more burst damage than his thief that runs full offense. Thats a

bad

sign.

https://imgur.com/a/TkSxzEZ

Don't know why I waste my time, already know the answer "liar, fabricated, photoshop yadda yadda nonsense nonsense nonsense"As for thief damage Vallun's video above prove it does fine damage as long as you spec offensive traitlines.

I indeed do not know why you wasted time fabricating such an obvious joke of a screenshot. Standard build, Dueling 2 3 1, Domination 1 2 2, Chaos 3 1 2. Zerkers, scholars, compounding and exploitation, you know the drill. Mantra activated in advance so its might doesnt apply. Golem starts at above 50%, because otherwise several traits would be active. The damage is slightly higher than against a player potentially (Since the golem doesnt use any skills obviously, making shattered anguishs doubling apply).

Here

is the result. Notably, significantly higher than 9k. Its 15325 damage. There is also a power spike that just didnt fit in the combat log, but its only 350 damage so its irrelevant. And before you say "well thats because everything crit (ignoring that the same is true of the thief damage you liked to show)", the non-crit versions werent much lower. I think I got between 11k-12k on average.

And no, Valluns video proved the opposite. He had to spec

3

offensive traitlines (something no other class has to do), and the damage was

still

pathetic. 4-6k backstabs, with little else in terms of followup. Again, I play Core Engineer. I do over 2000 more burst damage while using 2 defensive traitlines. I could push it much higher if I too ran 3 offense traitlines.

L2read maybe?I said defensive traits. Dom Duel are offensive.

And chaos isnt. Even Dueling is half-half. Its still more defensive traitlines than the DD SA Trickery thief. What, did you show Mesmer with

3

defensive traitlines there (actually, looking at the damage that appears to be exactly what it is). Your suggestion is that thief damage is fine because DD SA Trickery thief does only slightly less burst than a full defense Mesmer? Hah.

5-6k backstabs on heavy is absolutely fine in the current game balance.

Oh no its 6k on light,

maybe

medium. On heavy its 4k. Thats absolutely

pathetic

in the current game balance. Even by thief standards.

Chaos is offensive?!

The traitline that features only 1 damage amplifying trait, which is for condi and as such not used for power, is offensive? What?

No, my point is if you want damage you should spec offensive traitlines. Like the core build on Vallun's video.

Except thief

already

specs more offensive traitlines than anyone else. They still do jack all damage. Even when they spec

3

offensive traitlines. Again, something

no

other class does. Even then do they not do as much damage as other classes do with

1

offensive traitline. So your point is basically "thief shouldnt do damage even if they go max glass cannon".

Again see Vallun's videos, 5k on heavy at 10min50

On a golem, with the full black powder damage combo that amps damage by more than a realistic scenario would allow. And with max stacked lead attacks (rather than the typical 0). Not in an actual game. There its indeed around 4k.

There's a question mark on my post. I asked if you consider chaos offensive, since you said dueling is half half.

Power mes uses 2 full offensive traitlines and a defensive one (looking at the traits choice).D/P DD uses how many offensive ones?

When even one of the best thieves around says thief damage is fine, there's not much to argue.

[Tayga.3192]

@UNOwen.7132 said:Except thief already specs more offensive traitlines than anyone else.

Comparing all 3 high level meta roamers, it seems like herald specs the most non-damage traitlines while mirage and daredevil specs mostly damage. We both know who is the best roamer (cough herald cough).

But it isn't thief who specs the most damaging traitlines, it's equal with mirage:

D/P SA DD:Shadow arts: defense, a bit damageTrickery: utility, a bit damageDaredevil: a bit defense, a bit damage, a bit utility

CMirage:Domination (utility, damage)Illusions (damage)Mirage (defense, a bit damage)

pHerald:Devastation: damageInvocation: defense, utilityHerald: defense, utility

[UNOwen.7132]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:I've been saying that thief damage is good as long as you spec offensive stuff instead of defensive, giving the example of mesmer with defensive traitlines doing 9k power burst. Your core build is the perfect example of this.But apparently for some thieves is easier to beg ANerf for damage buffs instead of figuring this stuff out.

Mesmer does

much

more burst than 9k with defensive traitlines. Thief does less with 3 offensive traitlines. No, thief damage is pathetic. I mean, bloody hell, my Core Grenade Engineer build, which A, is not meta, and B, uses

2

defensive traitlines (Tools and Alchemy), does far more burst damage than his thief that runs full offense. Thats a

bad

sign.

https://imgur.com/a/TkSxzEZ

Don't know why I waste my time, already know the answer "liar, fabricated, photoshop yadda yadda nonsense nonsense nonsense"As for thief damage Vallun's video above prove it does fine damage as long as you spec offensive traitlines.

I indeed do not know why you wasted time fabricating such an obvious joke of a screenshot. Standard build, Dueling 2 3 1, Domination 1 2 2, Chaos 3 1 2. Zerkers, scholars, compounding and exploitation, you know the drill. Mantra activated in advance so its might doesnt apply. Golem starts at above 50%, because otherwise several traits would be active. The damage is slightly higher than against a player potentially (Since the golem doesnt use any skills obviously, making shattered anguishs doubling apply).

Here

is the result. Notably, significantly higher than 9k. Its 15325 damage. There is also a power spike that just didnt fit in the combat log, but its only 350 damage so its irrelevant. And before you say "well thats because everything crit (ignoring that the same is true of the thief damage you liked to show)", the non-crit versions werent much lower. I think I got between 11k-12k on average.

And no, Valluns video proved the opposite. He had to spec

3

offensive traitlines (something no other class has to do), and the damage was

still

pathetic. 4-6k backstabs, with little else in terms of followup. Again, I play Core Engineer. I do over 2000 more burst damage while using 2 defensive traitlines. I could push it much higher if I too ran 3 offense traitlines.

L2read maybe?I said defensive traits. Dom Duel are offensive.

5-6k backstabs on heavy is absolutely fine in the current game balance.

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:I've been saying that thief damage is good as long as you spec offensive stuff instead of defensive, giving the example of mesmer with defensive traitlines doing 9k power burst. Your core build is the perfect example of this.But apparently for some thieves is easier to beg ANerf for damage buffs instead of figuring this stuff out.

Mesmer does

much

more burst than 9k with defensive traitlines. Thief does less with 3 offensive traitlines. No, thief damage is pathetic. I mean, bloody hell, my Core Grenade Engineer build, which A, is not meta, and B, uses

2

defensive traitlines (Tools and Alchemy), does far more burst damage than his thief that runs full offense. Thats a

bad

sign.

https://imgur.com/a/TkSxzEZ

Don't know why I waste my time, already know the answer "liar, fabricated, photoshop yadda yadda nonsense nonsense nonsense"As for thief damage Vallun's video above prove it does fine damage as long as you spec offensive traitlines.

I indeed do not know why you wasted time fabricating such an obvious joke of a screenshot. Standard build, Dueling 2 3 1, Domination 1 2 2, Chaos 3 1 2. Zerkers, scholars, compounding and exploitation, you know the drill. Mantra activated in advance so its might doesnt apply. Golem starts at above 50%, because otherwise several traits would be active. The damage is slightly higher than against a player potentially (Since the golem doesnt use any skills obviously, making shattered anguishs doubling apply).

Here

is the result. Notably, significantly higher than 9k. Its 15325 damage. There is also a power spike that just didnt fit in the combat log, but its only 350 damage so its irrelevant. And before you say "well thats because everything crit (ignoring that the same is true of the thief damage you liked to show)", the non-crit versions werent much lower. I think I got between 11k-12k on average.

And no, Valluns video proved the opposite. He had to spec

3

offensive traitlines (something no other class has to do), and the damage was

still

pathetic. 4-6k backstabs, with little else in terms of followup. Again, I play Core Engineer. I do over 2000 more burst damage while using 2 defensive traitlines. I could push it much higher if I too ran 3 offense traitlines.

L2read maybe?I said defensive traits. Dom Duel are offensive.

And chaos isnt. Even Dueling is half-half. Its still more defensive traitlines than the DD SA Trickery thief. What, did you show Mesmer with

3

defensive traitlines there (actually, looking at the damage that appears to be exactly what it is). Your suggestion is that thief damage is fine because DD SA Trickery thief does only slightly less burst than a full defense Mesmer? Hah.

5-6k backstabs on heavy is absolutely fine in the current game balance.

Oh no its 6k on light,

maybe

medium. On heavy its 4k. Thats absolutely

pathetic

in the current game balance. Even by thief standards.

Chaos is offensive?!

The traitline that features only 1 damage amplifying trait, which is for condi and as such not used for power, is offensive? What?

No, my point is if you want damage you should spec offensive traitlines. Like the core build on Vallun's video.

Except thief

already

specs more offensive traitlines than anyone else. They still do jack all damage. Even when they spec

3

offensive traitlines. Again, something

no

other class does. Even then do they not do as much damage as other classes do with

1

offensive traitline. So your point is basically "thief shouldnt do damage even if they go max glass cannon".

Again see Vallun's videos, 5k on heavy at 10min50

On a golem, with the full black powder damage combo that amps damage by more than a realistic scenario would allow. And with max stacked lead attacks (rather than the typical 0). Not in an actual game. There its indeed around 4k.

There's a question mark on my post. I asked if you consider chaos offensive, since you said dueling is half half.

Oh. No, it is utility, Dueling is half-half.

Power mes uses 2 full offensive traitlines and a defensive one (looking at the traits choice).D/P DD uses how many offensive ones?

It uses 1 full offensive one. Dueling is half half. Chaos is full defensive. D/P DD uses 1 full offensive one, and 2 half/half ones. Of course, if you want to count Dueling as a fully offensive one, then the answer is D/P DD uses 3. Since Daredevil and Shadow Arts are as offensive as Dueling is.

When even one of the best thieves around says thief damage is fine, there's not much to argue.

And when even the best thief says thief damage is far too low, then there's not much to argue. This is the problem with argumentum ab auctoritate, there is usually an even higher authority to invoke. Of course, both of those are fallacies. The truth is, we have to make our own arguments based on what we see. What we see is thief doing less damage with 3 full offense traitlines than even Core Engineer does with only 1 offense traitline. Thats too low.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Tayga.3192 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:Except thief

already

specs more offensive traitlines than anyone else.

Comparing all 3 high level meta roamers, it seems like herald specs the most non-damage traitlines while mirage and daredevil specs mostly damage. We both know who is the best roamer (

cough

herald

cough

).

But it isn't thief who specs the most damaging traitlines, it's equal with mirage:

D/P SA DD:Shadow arts: defense, a bit damageTrickery: utility, a bit damageDaredevil: a bit defense, a bit damage, a bit utility

CMirage:Domination (utility, damage)Illusions (damage)Mirage (defense, a bit damage)

pHerald:Devastation: damageInvocation: defense, utilityHerald: defense, utility

Mirage is in a similar spot. That I dont disagree with. Though I would say, Shadow Arts has basically no defense whatsoever (the healing is usually burned up before you even take damage), its a damage/utility traitline. Same with Trickery. Daredevil is the only one somewhat defensive, and thats pretty much just because of Marauders Resilience.

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Tayga.3192 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:Except thief

already

specs more offensive traitlines than anyone else.

Comparing all 3 high level meta roamers, it seems like herald specs the most non-damage traitlines while mirage and daredevil specs mostly damage. We both know who is the best roamer (

cough

herald

cough

).

But it isn't thief who specs the most damaging traitlines, it's equal with mirage:

D/P SA DD:Shadow arts: defense, a bit damageTrickery: utility, a bit damageDaredevil: a bit defense, a bit damage, a bit utility

CMirage:Domination (utility, damage)Illusions (damage)Mirage (defense, a bit damage)

pHerald:Devastation: damageInvocation: defense, utilityHerald: defense, utility

Mirage is in a similar spot. That I dont disagree with. Though I would say, Shadow Arts has basically no defense whatsoever (the healing is usually burned up before you even take damage), its a damage/utility traitline. Same with Trickery. Daredevil is the only one somewhat defensive, and thats pretty much just because of Marauders Resilience.

Daredevil:

Weakening Strikes + Weakness to lower even more the enemy damageMarauder's ResilienceUnhindered Combatant30% damage redction + weakness

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:I've been saying that thief damage is good as long as you spec offensive stuff instead of defensive, giving the example of mesmer with defensive traitlines doing 9k power burst. Your core build is the perfect example of this.But apparently for some thieves is easier to beg ANerf for damage buffs instead of figuring this stuff out.

Mesmer does

much

more burst than 9k with defensive traitlines. Thief does less with 3 offensive traitlines. No, thief damage is pathetic. I mean, bloody hell, my Core Grenade Engineer build, which A, is not meta, and B, uses

2

defensive traitlines (Tools and Alchemy), does far more burst damage than his thief that runs full offense. Thats a

bad

sign.

https://imgur.com/a/TkSxzEZ

Don't know why I waste my time, already know the answer "liar, fabricated, photoshop yadda yadda nonsense nonsense nonsense"As for thief damage Vallun's video above prove it does fine damage as long as you spec offensive traitlines.

I indeed do not know why you wasted time fabricating such an obvious joke of a screenshot. Standard build, Dueling 2 3 1, Domination 1 2 2, Chaos 3 1 2. Zerkers, scholars, compounding and exploitation, you know the drill. Mantra activated in advance so its might doesnt apply. Golem starts at above 50%, because otherwise several traits would be active. The damage is slightly higher than against a player potentially (Since the golem doesnt use any skills obviously, making shattered anguishs doubling apply).

Here

is the result. Notably, significantly higher than 9k. Its 15325 damage. There is also a power spike that just didnt fit in the combat log, but its only 350 damage so its irrelevant. And before you say "well thats because everything crit (ignoring that the same is true of the thief damage you liked to show)", the non-crit versions werent much lower. I think I got between 11k-12k on average.

And no, Valluns video proved the opposite. He had to spec

3

offensive traitlines (something no other class has to do), and the damage was

still

pathetic. 4-6k backstabs, with little else in terms of followup. Again, I play Core Engineer. I do over 2000 more burst damage while using 2 defensive traitlines. I could push it much higher if I too ran 3 offense traitlines.

L2read maybe?I said defensive traits. Dom Duel are offensive.

5-6k backstabs on heavy is absolutely fine in the current game balance.

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:I've been saying that thief damage is good as long as you spec offensive stuff instead of defensive, giving the example of mesmer with defensive traitlines doing 9k power burst. Your core build is the perfect example of this.But apparently for some thieves is easier to beg ANerf for damage buffs instead of figuring this stuff out.

Mesmer does

much

more burst than 9k with defensive traitlines. Thief does less with 3 offensive traitlines. No, thief damage is pathetic. I mean, bloody hell, my Core Grenade Engineer build, which A, is not meta, and B, uses

2

defensive traitlines (Tools and Alchemy), does far more burst damage than his thief that runs full offense. Thats a

bad

sign.

https://imgur.com/a/TkSxzEZ

Don't know why I waste my time, already know the answer "liar, fabricated, photoshop yadda yadda nonsense nonsense nonsense"As for thief damage Vallun's video above prove it does fine damage as long as you spec offensive traitlines.

I indeed do not know why you wasted time fabricating such an obvious joke of a screenshot. Standard build, Dueling 2 3 1, Domination 1 2 2, Chaos 3 1 2. Zerkers, scholars, compounding and exploitation, you know the drill. Mantra activated in advance so its might doesnt apply. Golem starts at above 50%, because otherwise several traits would be active. The damage is slightly higher than against a player potentially (Since the golem doesnt use any skills obviously, making shattered anguishs doubling apply).

Here

is the result. Notably, significantly higher than 9k. Its 15325 damage. There is also a power spike that just didnt fit in the combat log, but its only 350 damage so its irrelevant. And before you say "well thats because everything crit (ignoring that the same is true of the thief damage you liked to show)", the non-crit versions werent much lower. I think I got between 11k-12k on average.

And no, Valluns video proved the opposite. He had to spec

3

offensive traitlines (something no other class has to do), and the damage was

still

pathetic. 4-6k backstabs, with little else in terms of followup. Again, I play Core Engineer. I do over 2000 more burst damage while using 2 defensive traitlines. I could push it much higher if I too ran 3 offense traitlines.

L2read maybe?I said defensive traits. Dom Duel are offensive.

And chaos isnt. Even Dueling is half-half. Its still more defensive traitlines than the DD SA Trickery thief. What, did you show Mesmer with

3

defensive traitlines there (actually, looking at the damage that appears to be exactly what it is). Your suggestion is that thief damage is fine because DD SA Trickery thief does only slightly less burst than a full defense Mesmer? Hah.

5-6k backstabs on heavy is absolutely fine in the current game balance.

Oh no its 6k on light,

maybe

medium. On heavy its 4k. Thats absolutely

pathetic

in the current game balance. Even by thief standards.

Chaos is offensive?!

The traitline that features only 1 damage amplifying trait, which is for condi and as such not used for power, is offensive? What?

No, my point is if you want damage you should spec offensive traitlines. Like the core build on Vallun's video.

Except thief

already

specs more offensive traitlines than anyone else. They still do jack all damage. Even when they spec

3

offensive traitlines. Again, something

no

other class does. Even then do they not do as much damage as other classes do with

1

offensive traitline. So your point is basically "thief shouldnt do damage even if they go max glass cannon".

Again see Vallun's videos, 5k on heavy at 10min50

On a golem, with the full black powder damage combo that amps damage by more than a realistic scenario would allow. And with max stacked lead attacks (rather than the typical 0). Not in an actual game. There its indeed around 4k.

There's a question mark on my post. I asked if you consider chaos offensive, since you said dueling is half half.

Oh. No, it is utility, Dueling is half-half.

Power mes uses 2 full offensive traitlines and a defensive one (looking at the traits choice).D/P DD uses how many offensive ones?

It uses

1

full offensive one. Dueling is half half. Chaos is full defensive. D/P DD uses 1 full offensive one, and 2 half/half ones. Of course, if you want to count Dueling as a fully offensive one, then the answer is D/P DD uses

3

. Since Daredevil and Shadow Arts are as offensive as Dueling is.

When even one of the best thieves around says thief damage is fine, there's not much to argue.

And when even

the

best thief says thief damage is far too low, then there's not much to argue. This is the problem with argumentum ab auctoritate, there is usually an even higher authority to invoke. Of course, both of those are fallacies. The truth is, we have to make our own arguments based on what we see. What we see is thief doing less damage with 3 full offense traitlines than even Core Engineer does with only

1

offense traitline. Thats too low.

If u talking about sindrener that was a while back when he stated that, he hasn't had to many negative things to say recently about thief state so maybe he's adjusted to things and is now on page with vallun that thief is completely fine. These players know there stuff so if they say thiefs fine maybe it's just not ur thing anymore. Their still doing fine on the class so thief players who feel otherwise must be wrong in thinking thief is in a weak state.

Nerf teef! :)

[Poledra Val.1490]

The only broken thing about thief is that pistol condie build, baring the fact it still has far to many jail out of free cards (stealth) etc.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:I've been saying that thief damage is good as long as you spec offensive stuff instead of defensive, giving the example of mesmer with defensive traitlines doing 9k power burst. Your core build is the perfect example of this.But apparently for some thieves is easier to beg ANerf for damage buffs instead of figuring this stuff out.

Mesmer does

much

more burst than 9k with defensive traitlines. Thief does less with 3 offensive traitlines. No, thief damage is pathetic. I mean, bloody hell, my Core Grenade Engineer build, which A, is not meta, and B, uses

2

defensive traitlines (Tools and Alchemy), does far more burst damage than his thief that runs full offense. Thats a

bad

sign.

https://imgur.com/a/TkSxzEZ

Don't know why I waste my time, already know the answer "liar, fabricated, photoshop yadda yadda nonsense nonsense nonsense"As for thief damage Vallun's video above prove it does fine damage as long as you spec offensive traitlines.

I indeed do not know why you wasted time fabricating such an obvious joke of a screenshot. Standard build, Dueling 2 3 1, Domination 1 2 2, Chaos 3 1 2. Zerkers, scholars, compounding and exploitation, you know the drill. Mantra activated in advance so its might doesnt apply. Golem starts at above 50%, because otherwise several traits would be active. The damage is slightly higher than against a player potentially (Since the golem doesnt use any skills obviously, making shattered anguishs doubling apply).

Here

is the result. Notably, significantly higher than 9k. Its 15325 damage. There is also a power spike that just didnt fit in the combat log, but its only 350 damage so its irrelevant. And before you say "well thats because everything crit (ignoring that the same is true of the thief damage you liked to show)", the non-crit versions werent much lower. I think I got between 11k-12k on average.

And no, Valluns video proved the opposite. He had to spec

3

offensive traitlines (something no other class has to do), and the damage was

still

pathetic. 4-6k backstabs, with little else in terms of followup. Again, I play Core Engineer. I do over 2000 more burst damage while using 2 defensive traitlines. I could push it much higher if I too ran 3 offense traitlines.

L2read maybe?I said defensive traits. Dom Duel are offensive.

5-6k backstabs on heavy is absolutely fine in the current game balance.

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:I've been saying that thief damage is good as long as you spec offensive stuff instead of defensive, giving the example of mesmer with defensive traitlines doing 9k power burst. Your core build is the perfect example of this.But apparently for some thieves is easier to beg ANerf for damage buffs instead of figuring this stuff out.

Mesmer does

much

more burst than 9k with defensive traitlines. Thief does less with 3 offensive traitlines. No, thief damage is pathetic. I mean, bloody hell, my Core Grenade Engineer build, which A, is not meta, and B, uses

2

defensive traitlines (Tools and Alchemy), does far more burst damage than his thief that runs full offense. Thats a

bad

sign.

https://imgur.com/a/TkSxzEZ

Don't know why I waste my time, already know the answer "liar, fabricated, photoshop yadda yadda nonsense nonsense nonsense"As for thief damage Vallun's video above prove it does fine damage as long as you spec offensive traitlines.

I indeed do not know why you wasted time fabricating such an obvious joke of a screenshot. Standard build, Dueling 2 3 1, Domination 1 2 2, Chaos 3 1 2. Zerkers, scholars, compounding and exploitation, you know the drill. Mantra activated in advance so its might doesnt apply. Golem starts at above 50%, because otherwise several traits would be active. The damage is slightly higher than against a player potentially (Since the golem doesnt use any skills obviously, making shattered anguishs doubling apply).

Here

is the result. Notably, significantly higher than 9k. Its 15325 damage. There is also a power spike that just didnt fit in the combat log, but its only 350 damage so its irrelevant. And before you say "well thats because everything crit (ignoring that the same is true of the thief damage you liked to show)", the non-crit versions werent much lower. I think I got between 11k-12k on average.

And no, Valluns video proved the opposite. He had to spec

3

offensive traitlines (something no other class has to do), and the damage was

still

pathetic. 4-6k backstabs, with little else in terms of followup. Again, I play Core Engineer. I do over 2000 more burst damage while using 2 defensive traitlines. I could push it much higher if I too ran 3 offense traitlines.

L2read maybe?I said defensive traits. Dom Duel are offensive.

And chaos isnt. Even Dueling is half-half. Its still more defensive traitlines than the DD SA Trickery thief. What, did you show Mesmer with

3

defensive traitlines there (actually, looking at the damage that appears to be exactly what it is). Your suggestion is that thief damage is fine because DD SA Trickery thief does only slightly less burst than a full defense Mesmer? Hah.

5-6k backstabs on heavy is absolutely fine in the current game balance.

Oh no its 6k on light,

maybe

medium. On heavy its 4k. Thats absolutely

pathetic

in the current game balance. Even by thief standards.

Chaos is offensive?!

The traitline that features only 1 damage amplifying trait, which is for condi and as such not used for power, is offensive? What?

No, my point is if you want damage you should spec offensive traitlines. Like the core build on Vallun's video.

Except thief

already

specs more offensive traitlines than anyone else. They still do jack all damage. Even when they spec

3

offensive traitlines. Again, something

no

other class does. Even then do they not do as much damage as other classes do with

1

offensive traitline. So your point is basically "thief shouldnt do damage even if they go max glass cannon".

Again see Vallun's videos, 5k on heavy at 10min50

On a golem, with the full black powder damage combo that amps damage by more than a realistic scenario would allow. And with max stacked lead attacks (rather than the typical 0). Not in an actual game. There its indeed around 4k.

There's a question mark on my post. I asked if you consider chaos offensive, since you said dueling is half half.

Oh. No, it is utility, Dueling is half-half.

Power mes uses 2 full offensive traitlines and a defensive one (looking at the traits choice).D/P DD uses how many offensive ones?

It uses

1

full offensive one. Dueling is half half. Chaos is full defensive. D/P DD uses 1 full offensive one, and 2 half/half ones. Of course, if you want to count Dueling as a fully offensive one, then the answer is D/P DD uses

3

. Since Daredevil and Shadow Arts are as offensive as Dueling is.

When even one of the best thieves around says thief damage is fine, there's not much to argue.

And when even

the

best thief says thief damage is far too low, then there's not much to argue. This is the problem with argumentum ab auctoritate, there is usually an even higher authority to invoke. Of course, both of those are fallacies. The truth is, we have to make our own arguments based on what we see. What we see is thief doing less damage with 3 full offense traitlines than even Core Engineer does with only

1

offense traitline. Thats too low.

If u talking about sindrener that was a while back when he stated that, he hasn't had to many negative things to say recently about thief state so maybe he's adjusted to things and is now on page with vallun that thief is completely fine. These players know there stuff so if they say thiefs fine maybe it's just not ur thing anymore. Their still doing fine on the class so thief players who feel otherwise must be wrong in thinking thief is in a weak state.

Nerf teef! :)

He hasnt exactly said anything to the contrary either. And there is no doubt that the current meta puts thief at a heavy disadvantage. Then again, hasnt he tried swapping to Rev recently?

[UNOwen.7132]

@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Tayga.3192 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:Except thief

already

specs more offensive traitlines than anyone else.

Comparing all 3 high level meta roamers, it seems like herald specs the most non-damage traitlines while mirage and daredevil specs mostly damage. We both know who is the best roamer (

cough

herald

cough

).

But it isn't thief who specs the most damaging traitlines, it's equal with mirage:

D/P SA DD:Shadow arts: defense, a bit damageTrickery: utility, a bit damageDaredevil: a bit defense, a bit damage, a bit utility

CMirage:Domination (utility, damage)Illusions (damage)Mirage (defense, a bit damage)

pHerald:Devastation: damageInvocation: defense, utilityHerald: defense, utility

Mirage is in a similar spot. That I dont disagree with. Though I would say, Shadow Arts has basically no defense whatsoever (the healing is usually burned up before you even take damage), its a damage/utility traitline. Same with Trickery. Daredevil is the only one somewhat defensive, and thats pretty much just because of Marauders Resilience.

Daredevil:

Weakening Strikes + Weakness to lower even more the enemy damageMarauder's ResilienceUnhindered Combatant30% damage redction + weakness

Protection: 33-40% damage reduction without having to rely on an easily cleansed and not so easily applied condition.

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Tayga.3192 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:Except thief

already

specs more offensive traitlines than anyone else.

Comparing all 3 high level meta roamers, it seems like herald specs the most non-damage traitlines while mirage and daredevil specs mostly damage. We both know who is the best roamer (

cough

herald

cough

).

But it isn't thief who specs the most damaging traitlines, it's equal with mirage:

D/P SA DD:Shadow arts: defense, a bit damageTrickery: utility, a bit damageDaredevil: a bit defense, a bit damage, a bit utility

CMirage:Domination (utility, damage)Illusions (damage)Mirage (defense, a bit damage)

pHerald:Devastation: damageInvocation: defense, utilityHerald: defense, utility

Mirage is in a similar spot. That I dont disagree with. Though I would say, Shadow Arts has basically no defense whatsoever (the healing is usually burned up before you even take damage), its a damage/utility traitline. Same with Trickery. Daredevil is the only one somewhat defensive, and thats pretty much just because of Marauders Resilience.

Daredevil:

Weakening Strikes + Weakness to lower even more the enemy damageMarauder's ResilienceUnhindered Combatant30% damage redction + weakness

Protection: 33-40% damage reduction without having to rely on an easily cleansed and not so easily applied condition.

And the Thief can use the 30% damage reducttion AND benefit from Protections , for a totalof 48% damage reduction :PHow muc damage reduction Berseker Mesmers have ?Also the WEaknessis applied every time you dodge + hit . Not all specs can cleanse it . And in teamfights your friends will aply their Weakness too :P

Edit: if there no Guardian , you can replace Leeching Venoms > Flickering Shadows> Take less 33% damage while revealed.Or add it up with the guardian prtection + 30% daredevil spec > for a wooping 67% damage reduction WITHOUT A KNIGHT AMULET