Conditions need a Damage Nerf as well!!!

AliamRationem.5172 · May 12, 2020

@PLS.4095 said:
@AliamRationem.5172 said:
@PLS.4095 said:The problem is here :You can play condi burst with big sustain, u can't play power burst with big sustain.The only exeption is actually ranger, we all know the reason = pet.
The big example is Thief :20 k hp with one shot condi burst.11K hp with 5k power burst.
The condi weakness is also a big a problem, completely destroying power damage but not condi.
You can't do actually 5K/second power damage, condi can ez.
Power damage is balance, condi is not.

5k/s is "ez"? Against who? AFK players? Just stop.

So why you can"t 5k/s on afk players with power damage ?And 5k/s is ez to have ( hello guard burn / condi rev / condi thief etc … ).Ho, and on afk payer you can have ez 10K/s condi damage.

Stop be blind, condi need a hugggge nerf.

You stop being blind. Condi is fine. If condi thief is overperforming, then address that.

AliamRationem.5172 · May 12, 2020

@UNOwen.7132 said:Whether its easier or not doesnt matter, its much harder to stop without cleanses to the point where you need cleanses to be able to play vs condi. You dont need protection vs power.

Cleansing is not similar to the protection boon and you should absolutely need to run condi cleanse if you don't want to handicap yourself against condi builds. There are more defenses against power, so of course you can run something other than protection to deal with that. Not all builds have good/easy access to protection anyway. But everyone can cleanse. You just have to give up something for it like everybody else.

Leonidrex.5649 · May 12, 2020

@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"saerni.2584" the problem with cthief is that they apply 10k+ damage instantly from stealth, with no tell. the moment you can defend yourself they will barrage you with more power/bleed/poison or just cover the big poison.

I do have to admit I find your ability to swap between 2 contradicting positions ("condi is fine even though it does ridiculous damage instantly with no tell, but not if thief is using it because its thief") without even so much as stumbling rather impressive, but please do stick to one of them. Either condi is a problem, or it, including condi thief, is not. All condi builds operate the same way, after all.

quote me

AliamRationem.5172 · May 12, 2020

@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"saerni.2584" the problem with cthief is that they apply 10k+ damage instantly from stealth, with no tell. the moment you can defend yourself they will barrage you with more power/bleed/poison or just cover the big poison.

I do have to admit I find your ability to swap between 2 contradicting positions ("condi is fine even though it does ridiculous damage instantly with no tell, but not if thief is using it because its thief") without even so much as stumbling rather impressive, but please do stick to one of them. Either condi is a problem, or it, including condi thief, is not. All condi builds operate the same way, after all.

Since when does one build overperforming indicate that it's time to start from scratch on an entire damage type? It's complete nonsense. You're so triggered by condi. Just take a break already...

UNOwen.7132 · May 12, 2020

@AliamRationem.5172 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:Whether its easier or not doesnt matter, its much harder to stop without cleanses to the point where you
need
cleanses to be able to play vs condi. You dont need protection vs power.

Cleansing is not similar to the protection boon and you should absolutely need to run condi cleanse if you don't want to handicap yourself against condi builds. There are more defenses against power, so of course you can run something other than protection to deal with that. Not all builds have good/easy access to protection anyway. But everyone can cleanse. You just have to give up something for it like everybody else.

Theyre both things aimed specifically at one damage type. Thats their similarity. The thing is that the defenses against power should, in theory, work just as well vs conditions. Block stop an attack and any effect that attack applies. As do Evades, as do invuln (which even stops condi damage incidentally), etc. But in actuality they dont help you vs condi, and you need to have cleanses. Meaning condi builds suffocate build choices. Thats the issue.

AliamRationem.5172 · May 12, 2020

@UNOwen.7132 said:
@AliamRationem.5172 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:Whether its easier or not doesnt matter, its much harder to stop without cleanses to the point where you
need
cleanses to be able to play vs condi. You dont need protection vs power.

Cleansing is not similar to the protection boon and you should absolutely need to run condi cleanse if you don't want to handicap yourself against condi builds. There are more defenses against power, so of course you can run something other than protection to deal with that. Not all builds have good/easy access to protection anyway. But everyone can cleanse. You just have to give up something for it like everybody else.

Theyre both things aimed specifically at one damage type. Thats their similarity. The thing is that the defenses against power should, in theory, work just as well vs conditions. Block stop an attack and any effect that attack applies. As do Evades, as do invuln (which even stops condi damage incidentally), etc. But in actuality they dont help you vs condi, and you

need

to have cleanses. Meaning condi builds suffocate build choices. Thats the issue.

Condi builds suffocate build choice because you have to take cleansing? Really? That's your premise?

UNOwen.7132 · May 12, 2020

@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"saerni.2584" the problem with cthief is that they apply 10k+ damage instantly from stealth, with no tell. the moment you can defend yourself they will barrage you with more power/bleed/poison or just cover the big poison.

I do have to admit I find your ability to swap between 2 contradicting positions ("condi is fine even though it does ridiculous damage instantly with no tell, but not if thief is using it because its thief") without even so much as stumbling rather impressive, but please do stick to one of them. Either condi is a problem, or it, including condi thief, is not. All condi builds operate the same way, after all.

quote me

You were defending condi the entire first half of this thread, and now youre suddenly against it so long as thief is using it. Are you denying either half? I mean not that it helps you much, its at this point become clear that you think anything thief does is a problem, but only if thief does it, and its fine if any other class does it. Just irrational thief hatred taken to an extreme degree.

UNOwen.7132 · May 12, 2020

@AliamRationem.5172 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"saerni.2584" the problem with cthief is that they apply 10k+ damage instantly from stealth, with no tell. the moment you can defend yourself they will barrage you with more power/bleed/poison or just cover the big poison.

I do have to admit I find your ability to swap between 2 contradicting positions ("condi is fine even though it does ridiculous damage instantly with no tell, but not if thief is using it because its thief") without even so much as stumbling rather impressive, but please do stick to one of them. Either condi is a problem, or it, including condi thief, is not. All condi builds operate the same way, after all.

Since when does one build overperforming indicate that it's time to start from scratch on an entire damage type? It's complete nonsense. You're so triggered by condi. Just take a break already...

Ignoring that its not one but 3, the problem is again not balance. Its design. Condi in its current state is poorly designed, and all the issues that condi thief has, apply to every single condi build. It needs to be started from scratch because the current version is unworkable. As long as it exists it will be binary, and it will suffocate build choice.

Leonidrex.5649 · May 12, 2020

@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"saerni.2584" the problem with cthief is that they apply 10k+ damage instantly from stealth, with no tell. the moment you can defend yourself they will barrage you with more power/bleed/poison or just cover the big poison.

I do have to admit I find your ability to swap between 2 contradicting positions ("condi is fine even though it does ridiculous damage instantly with no tell, but not if thief is using it because its thief") without even so much as stumbling rather impressive, but please do stick to one of them. Either condi is a problem, or it, including condi thief, is not. All condi builds operate the same way, after all.

quote me

You were defending condi the entire first half of this thread, and now youre suddenly against it so long as thief is using it. Are you denying either half? I mean not that it helps you much, its at this point become clear that you think anything thief does is a problem, but only if

thief

does it, and its fine if any other class does it. Just irrational thief hatred taken to an extreme degree.

quote me

UNOwen.7132 · May 12, 2020

@AliamRationem.5172 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@AliamRationem.5172 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:Whether its easier or not doesnt matter, its much harder to stop without cleanses to the point where you
need
cleanses to be able to play vs condi. You dont need protection vs power.

Cleansing is not similar to the protection boon and you should absolutely need to run condi cleanse if you don't want to handicap yourself against condi builds. There are more defenses against power, so of course you can run something other than protection to deal with that. Not all builds have good/easy access to protection anyway. But everyone can cleanse. You just have to give up something for it like everybody else.

Theyre both things aimed specifically at one damage type. Thats their similarity. The thing is that the defenses against power should, in theory, work just as well vs conditions. Block stop an attack and any effect that attack applies. As do Evades, as do invuln (which even stops condi damage incidentally), etc. But in actuality they dont help you vs condi, and you

need

to have cleanses. Meaning condi builds suffocate build choices. Thats the issue.

Condi builds suffocate build choice because you have to take cleansing? Really? That's your premise?

Well, yeah. Your build is not going to be unplayable just because it lacks protection. Or even because it lacks evades or blocks. Im playing core nade engineer, and despite only having the grenade blinds, a couple stuns and dodges amplified by the tools traitline as my active defenses, I can handle any power build just fine. But against condi? Suddenly I have to swap my Elixir B for Elixir C and weaken my entire offense just because I otherwise lose by default. And any class that doesnt have good condi answers just becomes awful. There are a couple engineer builds I outright scrapped because I lacked condi cleanses.

UNOwen.7132 · May 12, 2020

@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"saerni.2584" the problem with cthief is that they apply 10k+ damage instantly from stealth, with no tell. the moment you can defend yourself they will barrage you with more power/bleed/poison or just cover the big poison.

I do have to admit I find your ability to swap between 2 contradicting positions ("condi is fine even though it does ridiculous damage instantly with no tell, but not if thief is using it because its thief") without even so much as stumbling rather impressive, but please do stick to one of them. Either condi is a problem, or it, including condi thief, is not. All condi builds operate the same way, after all.

quote me

You were defending condi the entire first half of this thread, and now youre suddenly against it so long as thief is using it. Are you denying either half? I mean not that it helps you much, its at this point become clear that you think anything thief does is a problem, but only if

thief

does it, and its fine if any other class does it. Just irrational thief hatred taken to an extreme degree.

quote me

"the problem with cthief is that they apply 10k+ damage instantly from stealth, with no tell."

"ofc power will seem "weaker" because you cant make the booboo go away after you it it, if holo cornoa+holo 4 you for 8k total its 8k you are not getting back, its not like burning that you can cleanse like it never happened".

Or if we take things from other threads, how about "I have 1 condi cleanse every 30s and im doing guchi".

Oh or my personal favourite, "condi builds cant do that other then some niche or specific cases like burn buard or mass confusion from condi mesmer into you hurting yourself with confusion.". Yeah apparently when Mesmer kills you with confusion its you hurting yourself. When thief does it, its thieves fault. Cognitive dissonance as a result of irrational anti-thief bias. Nothing more.

AliamRationem.5172 · May 12, 2020

@UNOwen.7132 said:
@AliamRationem.5172 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@AliamRationem.5172 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:Whether its easier or not doesnt matter, its much harder to stop without cleanses to the point where you
need
cleanses to be able to play vs condi. You dont need protection vs power.

Cleansing is not similar to the protection boon and you should absolutely need to run condi cleanse if you don't want to handicap yourself against condi builds. There are more defenses against power, so of course you can run something other than protection to deal with that. Not all builds have good/easy access to protection anyway. But everyone can cleanse. You just have to give up something for it like everybody else.

Theyre both things aimed specifically at one damage type. Thats their similarity. The thing is that the defenses against power should, in theory, work just as well vs conditions. Block stop an attack and any effect that attack applies. As do Evades, as do invuln (which even stops condi damage incidentally), etc. But in actuality they dont help you vs condi, and you

need

to have cleanses. Meaning condi builds suffocate build choices. Thats the issue.

Condi builds suffocate build choice because you have to take cleansing? Really? That's your premise?

Well, yeah. Your build is not going to be unplayable just because it lacks protection. Or even because it lacks evades or blocks. Im playing core nade engineer, and despite only having the grenade blinds, a couple stuns and dodges amplified by the tools traitline as my active defenses, I can handle any power build just fine. But against condi? Suddenly I have to swap my Elixir B for Elixir C and weaken my entire offense just because I otherwise lose by default. And any class that doesnt have good condi answers just becomes awful. There are a couple engineer builds I outright scrapped because I lacked condi cleanses.

This sounds like how it should work.

I've played builds where I skimp on condi cleanse. The idea being that I overwhelm with stealth openers and CC, then use mobility and evasion if I can't end the fight quickly. I could give up some of that burst to run more cleanse and probably win longer engagements in 1v1, but that's not what I was going for with my build.

Right now I'm playing a build that has pretty excellent cleansing. Why? Because I'm not playing a hit-and-run burst build with high mobility and stealth. Instead, I'm playing more of a brawler type. I need to get into melee range to deal damage, so avoiding condi and countering it with burst pressure alone is not an option. I'm going to get covered in conditions and I need to be able to cleanse them. So I give up some really nice damage in exchange for really nice cleanse. Fair is fair.

I really don't see a problem here.

AliamRationem.5172 · May 12, 2020

@UNOwen.7132 said:
@AliamRationem.5172 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"saerni.2584" the problem with cthief is that they apply 10k+ damage instantly from stealth, with no tell. the moment you can defend yourself they will barrage you with more power/bleed/poison or just cover the big poison.

I do have to admit I find your ability to swap between 2 contradicting positions ("condi is fine even though it does ridiculous damage instantly with no tell, but not if thief is using it because its thief") without even so much as stumbling rather impressive, but please do stick to one of them. Either condi is a problem, or it, including condi thief, is not. All condi builds operate the same way, after all.

Since when does one build overperforming indicate that it's time to start from scratch on an entire damage type? It's complete nonsense. You're so triggered by condi. Just take a break already...

Ignoring that its not one but 3, the problem is again not balance. Its design. Condi in its current state is poorly designed, and all the issues that condi thief has, apply to

every single condi build

. It needs to be started from scratch because the current version is unworkable. As long as it exists it will be binary, and it will suffocate build choice.

I feel you make a poor argument and I disagree. Condi is fine. Let's keep it!

UNOwen.7132 · May 12, 2020

@AliamRationem.5172 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@AliamRationem.5172 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@AliamRationem.5172 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:Whether its easier or not doesnt matter, its much harder to stop without cleanses to the point where you
need
cleanses to be able to play vs condi. You dont need protection vs power.

Cleansing is not similar to the protection boon and you should absolutely need to run condi cleanse if you don't want to handicap yourself against condi builds. There are more defenses against power, so of course you can run something other than protection to deal with that. Not all builds have good/easy access to protection anyway. But everyone can cleanse. You just have to give up something for it like everybody else.

Theyre both things aimed specifically at one damage type. Thats their similarity. The thing is that the defenses against power should, in theory, work just as well vs conditions. Block stop an attack and any effect that attack applies. As do Evades, as do invuln (which even stops condi damage incidentally), etc. But in actuality they dont help you vs condi, and you

need

to have cleanses. Meaning condi builds suffocate build choices. Thats the issue.

Condi builds suffocate build choice because you have to take cleansing? Really? That's your premise?

Well, yeah. Your build is not going to be unplayable just because it lacks protection. Or even because it lacks evades or blocks. Im playing core nade engineer, and despite only having the grenade blinds, a couple stuns and dodges amplified by the tools traitline as my active defenses, I can handle any power build just fine. But against condi? Suddenly I have to swap my Elixir B for Elixir C and weaken my entire offense just because I otherwise lose by default. And any class that doesnt have good condi answers just becomes awful. There are a couple engineer builds I outright scrapped because I lacked condi cleanses.

This sounds like how it should work.

Then every build should have to use Protection or some other damage reduction to deal with power. You shouldnt be able ot get away with just dodges and blocks, because those arent enough vs condi either. If youre going to suffocate build choices for the sake of this, then at least equalise it.

I've played builds where I skimp on condi cleanse. The idea being that I overwhelm with stealth openers and CC, then use mobility and evasion if I can't end the fight quickly. I could give up some of that burst to run more cleanse and probably win longer engagements in 1v1, but that's not what I was going for with my build.

This trade-off should be between active defenses and sustain, or raw damage. Not between a specific answer to just one damage type. For that matter, it also doesnt work. Even on a high burst build, you cant skip condition cleanse like you can skip blocks or evades vs power builds. You will be tagged with lethal conditions much to quickly, and you will bleed out before they will.

Right now I'm playing a build that has pretty excellent cleansing. Why? Because I'm not playing a hit-and-run burst build with high mobility and stealth. Instead, I'm playing more of a brawler type. I need to get into melee range to deal damage, so avoiding condi and countering it with burst pressure alone is not an option. I'm going to get covered in conditions and I need to be able to cleanse them. So I give up some really nice damage in exchange for really nice cleanse. Fair is fair.

Youre going to get covered by condition no matter how long the fight lasts. Thats why you always need a bunch of cleanses. Even thief has to use them. And again, the difference should be between active defenses/sustain vs not. Not specifically something that only deals with 1 damage type.

I really don't see a problem here.

You dont see a problem with every build, including burst builds, having to dedicate space to an answer to one specific damage type while every other damage type is manageable with just general purpose active defenses?

Leonidrex.5649 · May 12, 2020

@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"saerni.2584" the problem with cthief is that they apply 10k+ damage instantly from stealth, with no tell. the moment you can defend yourself they will barrage you with more power/bleed/poison or just cover the big poison.

I do have to admit I find your ability to swap between 2 contradicting positions ("condi is fine even though it does ridiculous damage instantly with no tell, but not if thief is using it because its thief") without even so much as stumbling rather impressive, but please do stick to one of them. Either condi is a problem, or it, including condi thief, is not. All condi builds operate the same way, after all.

quote me

You were defending condi the entire first half of this thread, and now youre suddenly against it so long as thief is using it. Are you denying either half? I mean not that it helps you much, its at this point become clear that you think anything thief does is a problem, but only if

thief

does it, and its fine if any other class does it. Just irrational thief hatred taken to an extreme degree.

quote me

"the problem with cthief is that they apply 10k+ damage instantly from stealth, with no tell."

"ofc power will seem "weaker" because you cant make the booboo go away after you it it, if holo cornoa+holo 4 you for 8k total its 8k you are not getting back, its not like burning that you can cleanse like it never happened".

Or if we take things from other threads, how about "I have 1 condi cleanse every 30s and im doing guchi".

Oh or my personal favourite, "condi builds cant do that other then some niche or specific cases like burn buard or mass confusion from condi mesmer into you hurting yourself with confusion.". Yeah apparently when Mesmer kills you with confusion its you hurting yourself. When thief does it, its thieves fault. Cognitive dissonance as a result of irrational anti-thief bias. Nothing more.

as usual you fail to read and comprehend what is written, case closed.

UNOwen.7132 · May 12, 2020

@AliamRationem.5172 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@AliamRationem.5172 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"saerni.2584" the problem with cthief is that they apply 10k+ damage instantly from stealth, with no tell. the moment you can defend yourself they will barrage you with more power/bleed/poison or just cover the big poison.

I do have to admit I find your ability to swap between 2 contradicting positions ("condi is fine even though it does ridiculous damage instantly with no tell, but not if thief is using it because its thief") without even so much as stumbling rather impressive, but please do stick to one of them. Either condi is a problem, or it, including condi thief, is not. All condi builds operate the same way, after all.

Since when does one build overperforming indicate that it's time to start from scratch on an entire damage type? It's complete nonsense. You're so triggered by condi. Just take a break already...

Ignoring that its not one but 3, the problem is again not balance. Its design. Condi in its current state is poorly designed, and all the issues that condi thief has, apply to

every single condi build

. It needs to be started from scratch because the current version is unworkable. As long as it exists it will be binary, and it will suffocate build choice.

I feel you make a poor argument and I disagree. Condi is fine. Let's keep it!

Im not saying remove conditions. We need something that deals with high armour targets in theory. Im saying make conditions less binary. Remove the ability to cleanse them and then retune and retool them around that. Lower burst damage, make conditions as avoidable as power (so no more on-X traits, instant cast abilities apply almost no damaging conditions, make abilities that apply a lot of conditions have actual telegraphs, and significantly weaken pulsing fields).

UNOwen.7132 · May 12, 2020

@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"saerni.2584" the problem with cthief is that they apply 10k+ damage instantly from stealth, with no tell. the moment you can defend yourself they will barrage you with more power/bleed/poison or just cover the big poison.

I do have to admit I find your ability to swap between 2 contradicting positions ("condi is fine even though it does ridiculous damage instantly with no tell, but not if thief is using it because its thief") without even so much as stumbling rather impressive, but please do stick to one of them. Either condi is a problem, or it, including condi thief, is not. All condi builds operate the same way, after all.

quote me

You were defending condi the entire first half of this thread, and now youre suddenly against it so long as thief is using it. Are you denying either half? I mean not that it helps you much, its at this point become clear that you think anything thief does is a problem, but only if

thief

does it, and its fine if any other class does it. Just irrational thief hatred taken to an extreme degree.

quote me

"the problem with cthief is that they apply 10k+ damage instantly from stealth, with no tell."

"ofc power will seem "weaker" because you cant make the booboo go away after you it it, if holo cornoa+holo 4 you for 8k total its 8k you are not getting back, its not like burning that you can cleanse like it never happened".

Or if we take things from other threads, how about "I have 1 condi cleanse every 30s and im doing guchi".

Oh or my personal favourite, "condi builds cant do that other then some niche or specific cases like burn buard or mass confusion from condi mesmer into you hurting yourself with confusion.". Yeah apparently when Mesmer kills you with confusion its you hurting yourself. When thief does it, its thieves fault. Cognitive dissonance as a result of irrational anti-thief bias. Nothing more.

as usual you fail to read and comprehend what is written, case closed.

Translation: "I have no answer and would rather keep my cognitive dissonance, so I will try and deflect". So let me ask this. Why is Mesmers confusion burst fine, but Thieves isnt? Mesmers isnt any avoidable after all. In your eyes its fine because it only does damage if the opponent spams like an idiot, but the same is true for thief, yet you have a problem with thief (remember that video where the guy died to theif steal burst, but only because he lost 9k hp from using abilities through confusion?). The simple truth is that the same thing you just ardently defended becomes a problem, just because thief used it. All because you have an irrational bias against thief.

Leonidrex.5649 · May 12, 2020

@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"saerni.2584" the problem with cthief is that they apply 10k+ damage instantly from stealth, with no tell. the moment you can defend yourself they will barrage you with more power/bleed/poison or just cover the big poison.

I do have to admit I find your ability to swap between 2 contradicting positions ("condi is fine even though it does ridiculous damage instantly with no tell, but not if thief is using it because its thief") without even so much as stumbling rather impressive, but please do stick to one of them. Either condi is a problem, or it, including condi thief, is not. All condi builds operate the same way, after all.

quote me

You were defending condi the entire first half of this thread, and now youre suddenly against it so long as thief is using it. Are you denying either half? I mean not that it helps you much, its at this point become clear that you think anything thief does is a problem, but only if

thief

does it, and its fine if any other class does it. Just irrational thief hatred taken to an extreme degree.

quote me

"the problem with cthief is that they apply 10k+ damage instantly from stealth, with no tell."

"ofc power will seem "weaker" because you cant make the booboo go away after you it it, if holo cornoa+holo 4 you for 8k total its 8k you are not getting back, its not like burning that you can cleanse like it never happened".

Or if we take things from other threads, how about "I have 1 condi cleanse every 30s and im doing guchi".

Oh or my personal favourite, "condi builds cant do that other then some niche or specific cases like burn buard or mass confusion from condi mesmer into you hurting yourself with confusion.". Yeah apparently when Mesmer kills you with confusion its you hurting yourself. When thief does it, its thieves fault. Cognitive dissonance as a result of irrational anti-thief bias. Nothing more.

as usual you fail to read and comprehend what is written, case closed.

Translation: "I have no answer and would rather keep my cognitive dissonance, so I will try and deflect". So let me ask this. Why is Mesmers confusion burst fine, but Thieves isnt? Mesmers isnt any avoidable after all. In your eyes its fine because it only does damage if the opponent spams like an idiot, but the same is true for thief, yet you have a problem with thief (remember that video where the guy died to theif steal burst, but only because he lost 9k hp from using abilities through confusion?). The simple truth is that the same thing you just ardently defended becomes a problem, just because thief used it. All because you have an irrational bias against thief.

thief deals over 10k dmg WITHOUT confusion, the moment F2 shatter lands 10k+ dmg AND confusion we can have this talk

AliamRationem.5172 · May 12, 2020

@UNOwen.7132 said:
@AliamRationem.5172 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@AliamRationem.5172 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"saerni.2584" the problem with cthief is that they apply 10k+ damage instantly from stealth, with no tell. the moment you can defend yourself they will barrage you with more power/bleed/poison or just cover the big poison.

I do have to admit I find your ability to swap between 2 contradicting positions ("condi is fine even though it does ridiculous damage instantly with no tell, but not if thief is using it because its thief") without even so much as stumbling rather impressive, but please do stick to one of them. Either condi is a problem, or it, including condi thief, is not. All condi builds operate the same way, after all.

Since when does one build overperforming indicate that it's time to start from scratch on an entire damage type? It's complete nonsense. You're so triggered by condi. Just take a break already...

Ignoring that its not one but 3, the problem is again not balance. Its design. Condi in its current state is poorly designed, and all the issues that condi thief has, apply to

every single condi build

. It needs to be started from scratch because the current version is unworkable. As long as it exists it will be binary, and it will suffocate build choice.

I feel you make a poor argument and I disagree. Condi is fine. Let's keep it!

Im not saying remove conditions. We need something that deals with high armour targets in theory. Im saying make conditions less binary. Remove the ability to cleanse them and then retune and retool them around that. Lower burst damage, make conditions as avoidable as power (so no more on-X traits, instant cast abilities apply almost no damaging conditions, make abilities that apply a lot of conditions have actual telegraphs, and significantly weaken pulsing fields).

Yes, I've heard your position before and I still disagree with it. It feels to me like reinventing the wheel for questionable gain. I think I would prefer they not take a shot in the dark at this one.

UNOwen.7132 · May 12, 2020

@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"saerni.2584" the problem with cthief is that they apply 10k+ damage instantly from stealth, with no tell. the moment you can defend yourself they will barrage you with more power/bleed/poison or just cover the big poison.

I do have to admit I find your ability to swap between 2 contradicting positions ("condi is fine even though it does ridiculous damage instantly with no tell, but not if thief is using it because its thief") without even so much as stumbling rather impressive, but please do stick to one of them. Either condi is a problem, or it, including condi thief, is not. All condi builds operate the same way, after all.

quote me

You were defending condi the entire first half of this thread, and now youre suddenly against it so long as thief is using it. Are you denying either half? I mean not that it helps you much, its at this point become clear that you think anything thief does is a problem, but only if

thief

does it, and its fine if any other class does it. Just irrational thief hatred taken to an extreme degree.

quote me

"the problem with cthief is that they apply 10k+ damage instantly from stealth, with no tell."

"ofc power will seem "weaker" because you cant make the booboo go away after you it it, if holo cornoa+holo 4 you for 8k total its 8k you are not getting back, its not like burning that you can cleanse like it never happened".

Or if we take things from other threads, how about "I have 1 condi cleanse every 30s and im doing guchi".

Oh or my personal favourite, "condi builds cant do that other then some niche or specific cases like burn buard or mass confusion from condi mesmer into you hurting yourself with confusion.". Yeah apparently when Mesmer kills you with confusion its you hurting yourself. When thief does it, its thieves fault. Cognitive dissonance as a result of irrational anti-thief bias. Nothing more.

as usual you fail to read and comprehend what is written, case closed.

Translation: "I have no answer and would rather keep my cognitive dissonance, so I will try and deflect". So let me ask this. Why is Mesmers confusion burst fine, but Thieves isnt? Mesmers isnt any avoidable after all. In your eyes its fine because it only does damage if the opponent spams like an idiot, but the same is true for thief, yet you have a problem with thief (remember that video where the guy died to theif steal burst, but only because he lost 9k hp from using abilities through confusion?). The simple truth is that the same thing you just ardently defended becomes a problem, just because thief used it. All because you have an irrational bias against thief.

thief deals over 10k dmg WITHOUT confusion, the moment F2 shatter lands 10k+ dmg AND confusion we can have this talk

Ah yes, how could I forget. The 10k steal "burst" that ticks over 15 seconds. That was a joke before, and it still is a joke. But dont tell me you forgot "Maim the Disillusioned". Oh and the Prestige, of course. Probably could slap on some phantasmal axes as well.

UNOwen.7132 · May 12, 2020

@AliamRationem.5172 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@AliamRationem.5172 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@AliamRationem.5172 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"saerni.2584" the problem with cthief is that they apply 10k+ damage instantly from stealth, with no tell. the moment you can defend yourself they will barrage you with more power/bleed/poison or just cover the big poison.

I do have to admit I find your ability to swap between 2 contradicting positions ("condi is fine even though it does ridiculous damage instantly with no tell, but not if thief is using it because its thief") without even so much as stumbling rather impressive, but please do stick to one of them. Either condi is a problem, or it, including condi thief, is not. All condi builds operate the same way, after all.

Since when does one build overperforming indicate that it's time to start from scratch on an entire damage type? It's complete nonsense. You're so triggered by condi. Just take a break already...

Ignoring that its not one but 3, the problem is again not balance. Its design. Condi in its current state is poorly designed, and all the issues that condi thief has, apply to

every single condi build

. It needs to be started from scratch because the current version is unworkable. As long as it exists it will be binary, and it will suffocate build choice.

I feel you make a poor argument and I disagree. Condi is fine. Let's keep it!

Im not saying remove conditions. We need something that deals with high armour targets in theory. Im saying make conditions less binary. Remove the ability to cleanse them and then retune and retool them around that. Lower burst damage, make conditions as avoidable as power (so no more on-X traits, instant cast abilities apply almost no damaging conditions, make abilities that apply a lot of conditions have actual telegraphs, and significantly weaken pulsing fields).

Yes, I've heard your position before and I still disagree with it. It feels to me like reinventing the wheel for questionable gain. I think I would prefer they not take a shot in the dark at this one.

The gain is that build diversity is opened up a bit, and condi builds become more engaging for both sides. Right now its just "do you have enough cleanses? If no, you lose. If yes, you win". Binary, and uninteresting.

Arheundel.6451 · May 12, 2020

@UNOwen.7132 said:
@AliamRationem.5172 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@AliamRationem.5172 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@AliamRationem.5172 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"saerni.2584" the problem with cthief is that they apply 10k+ damage instantly from stealth, with no tell. the moment you can defend yourself they will barrage you with more power/bleed/poison or just cover the big poison.

I do have to admit I find your ability to swap between 2 contradicting positions ("condi is fine even though it does ridiculous damage instantly with no tell, but not if thief is using it because its thief") without even so much as stumbling rather impressive, but please do stick to one of them. Either condi is a problem, or it, including condi thief, is not. All condi builds operate the same way, after all.

Since when does one build overperforming indicate that it's time to start from scratch on an entire damage type? It's complete nonsense. You're so triggered by condi. Just take a break already...

Ignoring that its not one but 3, the problem is again not balance. Its design. Condi in its current state is poorly designed, and all the issues that condi thief has, apply to

every single condi build

. It needs to be started from scratch because the current version is unworkable. As long as it exists it will be binary, and it will suffocate build choice.

I feel you make a poor argument and I disagree. Condi is fine. Let's keep it!

Im not saying remove conditions. We need something that deals with high armour targets in theory. Im saying make conditions less binary. Remove the ability to cleanse them and then retune and retool them around that. Lower burst damage, make conditions as avoidable as power (so no more on-X traits, instant cast abilities apply almost no damaging conditions, make abilities that apply a lot of conditions have actual telegraphs, and significantly weaken pulsing fields).

Yes, I've heard your position before and I still disagree with it. It feels to me like reinventing the wheel for questionable gain. I think I would prefer they not take a shot in the dark at this one.

The gain is that build diversity is opened up a bit, and condi builds become more engaging for both sides. Right now its just "do you have enough cleanses? If no, you lose. If yes, you win". Binary, and uninteresting.

You make loads of assumptions based on armchair "development"

Leonidrex.5649 · May 12, 2020

@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"saerni.2584" the problem with cthief is that they apply 10k+ damage instantly from stealth, with no tell. the moment you can defend yourself they will barrage you with more power/bleed/poison or just cover the big poison.

I do have to admit I find your ability to swap between 2 contradicting positions ("condi is fine even though it does ridiculous damage instantly with no tell, but not if thief is using it because its thief") without even so much as stumbling rather impressive, but please do stick to one of them. Either condi is a problem, or it, including condi thief, is not. All condi builds operate the same way, after all.

quote me

You were defending condi the entire first half of this thread, and now youre suddenly against it so long as thief is using it. Are you denying either half? I mean not that it helps you much, its at this point become clear that you think anything thief does is a problem, but only if

thief

does it, and its fine if any other class does it. Just irrational thief hatred taken to an extreme degree.

quote me

"the problem with cthief is that they apply 10k+ damage instantly from stealth, with no tell."

"ofc power will seem "weaker" because you cant make the booboo go away after you it it, if holo cornoa+holo 4 you for 8k total its 8k you are not getting back, its not like burning that you can cleanse like it never happened".

Or if we take things from other threads, how about "I have 1 condi cleanse every 30s and im doing guchi".

Oh or my personal favourite, "condi builds cant do that other then some niche or specific cases like burn buard or mass confusion from condi mesmer into you hurting yourself with confusion.". Yeah apparently when Mesmer kills you with confusion its you hurting yourself. When thief does it, its thieves fault. Cognitive dissonance as a result of irrational anti-thief bias. Nothing more.

as usual you fail to read and comprehend what is written, case closed.

Translation: "I have no answer and would rather keep my cognitive dissonance, so I will try and deflect". So let me ask this. Why is Mesmers confusion burst fine, but Thieves isnt? Mesmers isnt any avoidable after all. In your eyes its fine because it only does damage if the opponent spams like an idiot, but the same is true for thief, yet you have a problem with thief (remember that video where the guy died to theif steal burst, but only because he lost 9k hp from using abilities through confusion?). The simple truth is that the same thing you just ardently defended becomes a problem, just because thief used it. All because you have an irrational bias against thief.

thief deals over 10k dmg WITHOUT confusion, the moment F2 shatter lands 10k+ dmg AND confusion we can have this talk

Ah yes, how could I forget. The 10k steal "burst" that ticks over

15 seconds

. That was a joke before, and it still is a joke. But dont tell me you forgot "Maim the Disillusioned". Oh and the Prestige, of course. Probably could slap on some phantasmal axes as well.

maim deals under 400dmg/clone assuming you move through entire duration, 3clone F2 in melee range would deal 1600 dmg with the torment.If we add in torch 4+torch 5+jaunt + 3clones F2 in melee, we will get ~12k dmg +8confusion.its almost the same!, exept 1 melee range, 2 you have to generate clones, 3 torch 4 has 3s delaymeanwhile thief presses 3+f1 from 1200 range and applies this much instantly, be it stealth or not. That is not counting even venoms.

UNOwen.7132 · May 12, 2020

@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"saerni.2584" the problem with cthief is that they apply 10k+ damage instantly from stealth, with no tell. the moment you can defend yourself they will barrage you with more power/bleed/poison or just cover the big poison.