Why does the game not teach people how to play Conquest?

[Sneakers.8462]

Hi everyone!So I wanted to write this post discussing a topic I feel is quite important. Guild Wars 2 does a bad job of preparing new players for PvP.

Now, we have all been victim to that kind of player who, by no fault of their own has no clue how to rotate, how to counter different classes or even simple secondary map mechanics. This is down to poor game design.There are lots of guides out there on the interwebs, but lets think about the casual everyday player. This kind of player doesn't look on the wiki, doesn't watch twitch or YouTube and only wants those precious Ascended Shards for some sweet loot.

I am going to compare this problem to Guild Wars 1....In Guild Wars 1, each campaign had an arena at each starting outpost for those under level 10. This was a basic introduction into PvP and was a bit of fun for new players to fight each other. Although not very intuative, it was a subtle nudge saying "PvP endgame, get practicing now"

Moving onto the Prophecies campaign there is a specific mission called "Thirsty River" which requires the player to kill enemy NPC's and their "Priest" which will resurrect the NPC's every 2 mins unless killed. This is the exact mechanic for Random Arenas and Team Arenas, 2 PvP gamemodes. This was a small insight into what PvP was about even if the player did not know it, it gave them something to reference in the future.

Now, this is the big one for me. When you first create a PvP character you are required to do 2 PvP Missions, the Zaishen Challenge and Zaishen Elite. These are 2 missions where the player, with help from others or NPC Henchman fought against another team of 4 NPC's in a PvP arena. This along with pop ups informing the player to go kill the enemy "Priest" to prevent their team from resurrecting did a good job of preparing the player for their next step, Random Arenas!

Obviously, the game modes in Guild Wars 1 were much simpler to teach as it was basically Team Deathmatch with some additional mechanics but we are 8 years into Guild Wars 2 and still players have no clue about roles, rotations and much more. If PvP is to ever be taken seriously, the game needs to do a better job of teaching these players how to interact properly with Conquest.

What is everyone else thoughts on this? How do you feel the game does when introducing new players into PvP?

[Curennos.9307]

It would probably be worthwhile for the game to link players to some well known pvp websites - like a pop up before queuing into unranked/ranked for the first time.

Tbh, the game DOES teach players - but how many do you imagine actually read the popups?

People who cant be bothered to spent literally 5 seconds googling arent likely to benefit from whatever anet implements to try and force them to learn.

[Shiyo.3578]

The game doesn't even have recommended builds for new players to start with and adding build templates was the best possible time to do so.

[Tayga.3192]

Rotations are one thing, but the game doesn't even teach the actual game mechanics.

Not many people know how to 1v1 on node properly, doesn't matter if you do perfect rotations if you can't follow up on them.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

The amount of times I see teammates run right by enemy owned caps without bothering to decap it. Or ur capping a node uncontested and ur teamates makes his way over to u to stand next to u while our other 3 teammates are team fighting on one of the other nodes. Most times on maps like bell u or u and one other teammate are usually trying to fend off at least 4 opponents. The new thing is one teamate goes home and another far leaving 90% of mid fights 3v4, most times ur teamate fails to cap far and dies so u lose far and mid before 2 of them head to capture the home node.Solo a is good times......good times.

[Kuma.1503]

To be fair, there isn't a whole lot of content out there for players to study up on either. I've done a good bit of searching for videos and written guides on how to improve at PvP, but out of the few there are, none go beyond the basics.

That leaves players to bash their heads against a brick wall for a few weeks or months while they try their best to process what's happening.

It's not like there's must incentive to put in the effort. Gw2 isn't an Esport. The PvP community is so barren that bots are starting to outnumber real players. Why bother investing into this game mode to begin with? Every new player must ask themselves this question.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Kuma.1503 said:To be fair, there isn't a whole lot of content out there for players to study up on either. I've done a good bit of searching for videos and written guides on how to improve at PvP, but out of the few there are, none go beyond the basics.

That leaves players to bash their heads against a brick wall for a few weeks or months while they try their best to process what's happening.

It's not like there's must incentive to put in the effort. Gw2 isn't an Esport. The PvP community is so barren that bots are starting to outnumber real players. Why bother investing into this game mode to begin with? Every new player must ask themselves this question.

I agree and chose to not invest much time in the game these days but for players that do I sincerely hope it improves.

[Shiyo.3578]

@Kuma.1503 said:To be fair, there isn't a whole lot of content out there for players to study up on either. I've done a good bit of searching for videos and written guides on how to improve at PvP, but out of the few there are, none go beyond the basics.

That leaves players to bash their heads against a brick wall for a few weeks or months while they try their best to process what's happening.

It's not like there's must incentive to put in the effort. Gw2 isn't an Esport. The PvP community is so barren that bots are starting to outnumber real players. Why bother investing into this game mode to begin with? Every new player must ask themselves this question.

The top players intentionally mislead and hide information btw.

[Sindrener.1592]

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@Kuma.1503 said:To be fair, there isn't a whole lot of content out there for players to study up on either. I've done a good bit of searching for videos and written guides on how to improve at PvP, but out of the few there are, none go beyond the basics.

That leaves players to bash their heads against a brick wall for a few weeks or months while they try their best to process what's happening.

It's not like there's must incentive to put in the effort. Gw2 isn't an Esport. The PvP community is so barren that bots are starting to outnumber real players. Why bother investing into this game mode to begin with? Every new player must ask themselves this question.

The top players intentionally mislead and hide information btw.

What ?

[Shiyo.3578]

Not all, but some(most?) do.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Shiyo.3578 said:Not all, but some(most?) do.

they dont, they just dont give a crap like everyone else would, similar how YOU would do if you were in their shoes, if anything in GW2 they actually try to spread information more then in other mmos I have played.

[Shiyo.3578]

I don't really think so.

Why are scrims intentionally not streamed? To hide stuff and keep things secret(builds possibly, comps too). Why are ranked matches intentionally not streamed on some peoples mains? Good question, honestly.

The entire gods of pvp site is the perfect example of misleading and spreading misinformation(I don't think it's intentional, though) with how it's presented. it doesn't say "This is a site of builds people used in tournaments", it acts as though it's the only builds you should be playing. I mean elementalist doesn't even have a weaver build, and there isn't a DH build despite it having the highest winrate in ranked(According lead PvP dev CMC). Or how about the fact renegade isn't even on there, despite being played in the tournament(iirc) and very powerful?

This isn't even getting into how the site puts Bunker Soulbeast as one of the builds for ranger and doesn't even have a sic'em soulbeast or pure dps soulbeast build when that bunker soulbeast was specifically played to counter a certain comp/class the enemy played(iirc) which is incredibly bad information as taking that build into a solo queue ranked scenario would lead to frustration and probably easy losses as your build is not very effective for general use. Even if we say I'm completely wrong(I could be honestly) and this build IS good for winning ranked, the fact there is not a single sic'em or dps soulbeast build is incredibly misleading when it's a good spec and played a lot by many people. Did I mention that it says "This class has multiple builds" yet only lists two of the builds (bunker sb and core condi ranger) when the class has many, many more builds than that? It's a common issue with most of the classes on this site, though, especially rev.(No renegade as mentioned above).

As a brand new player coming to the game, if I was given that site I would assume this game has very little build variety and class diversity and is incredibly cookie cutter as it doesn't even list many variations/other talent and utility choices you can take depending on enemies comp, your playstyle, your skill level, etc for most builds. That's pretty off-putting and does more harm than good.

However the fractal site has these same issues, where it claims dragon hunter isn't meta because weaver is mandatory despite bringing zero utility, being harder and riskier, and yet only doing 400 more DPS.

No disrespect to the people at gods of pvp as it takes a lot of time and effort to maintain a site like that and it's a lot of hard work and is appreciated, but the way it's presented is not good and is a consistent problem with every "top guild/players showing builds" site.

There's really no good source to get builds or info besides talking to people really since meta battle is very outdated and rarely used anymore(?).

Vallun seems to be the only person creating actual builds that work for 99% of players(good in solo queue, easy to understand, easy to play and effective) that I see. Correct me if I'm wrong, though.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@"Shiyo.3578" said:I don't really think so.

Why are scrims intentionally not streamed? To hide stuff and keep things secret(builds possibly, comps too). Why are ranked matches intentionally not streamed on some peoples mains? Good question, honestly.

The entire gods of pvp site is the perfect example of misleading and spreading misinformation(I don't think it's intentional, though) with how it's presented. it doesn't say "This is a site of builds people used in tournaments", it acts as though it's the only builds you should be playing. I mean elementalist doesn't even have a weaver build, and there isn't a DH build despite it having the highest winrate in ranked(According lead PvP dev CMC). Or how about the fact renegade isn't even on there, despite being played in the tournament(iirc) and very powerful?

This isn't even getting into how the site puts Bunker Soulbeast as one of the builds for ranger and doesn't even have a sic'em soulbeast or pure dps soulbeast build when that bunker soulbeast was specifically played to counter a certain comp/class the enemy played(iirc) which is incredibly bad information as taking that build into a solo queue ranked scenario would lead to frustration and probably easy losses as your build is not very effective for general use. Even if we say I'm completely wrong(I could be honestly) and this build IS good for winning ranked, the fact there is not a single sic'em or dps soulbeast build is incredibly misleading when it's a good spec and played a lot by many people. Did I mention that it says "This class has multiple builds" yet only lists two of the builds (bunker sb and core condi ranger) when the class has many, many more builds than that? It's a common issue with most of the classes on this site, though, especially rev.(No renegade as mentioned above).

As a brand new player coming to the game, if I was given that site I would assume this game has very little build variety and class diversity and is incredibly cookie cutter as it doesn't even list many variations/other talent and utility choices you can take depending on enemies comp, your playstyle, your skill level, etc for most builds. That's pretty off-putting and does more harm than good.

However the fractal site has these same issues, where it claims dragon hunter isn't meta because weaver is mandatory despite bringing zero utility, being harder and riskier, and yet only doing 400 more DPS.

No disrespect to the people at gods of pvp as it takes a lot of time and effort to maintain a site like that and it's a lot of hard work and is appreciated, but the way it's presented is not good and is a consistent problem with every "top guild/players showing builds" site.

There's really no good source to get builds or info besides talking to people really since meta battle is very outdated and rarely used anymore(?).

Vallun seems to be the only person creating actual builds that work for 99% of players(good in solo queue, easy to understand, easy to play and effective) that I see. Correct me if I'm wrong, though.

how about you join a stream from any of the gw2 players and ask them for good builds? Fairly sure shorts gonna give you several thief builds and explain why etc, sind propably gonna link his yt channel with several builds too, and others will do the same. Scrims are not streamed for several reasons.1 to focus on the game2 not everyone wants to be on stream, if im on discord with a friend thats shy im not gonna stream our conversation, and if you join their streams they rarely communicate3 they want to hide builds from others. which is normal.gods of pvp is not a site I would take seriously at all, any "build" that is not EXPLAINED on the site doesnt deserve attention.metabattle is better in every way, not only it has more builds but it also EXPLAINS WHY and HOW things work in the build, and if you reach a point where you dont need explanation then you dont need those sites anyways and can make your own mind whats the best build.gods of pvp is a meme in my mind.in other mmos I have played nobody would share any builds ever unless you were friends or guild, sometimes not even then.I sure as hell shared my builds and it sure as hell backfired on me big time.

[Sneakers.8462]

Thanks for people replying but it seems to be pretty decisive. The game does a bad job of helping new players get into PvP. No real guidance on roles, no examples of good builds and more.

I have just thought of one other thing Guild Wars 1 did which was superior too! Top GvG and Heroes Accent games were available to EVERYONE who wanted to spectate them, not just for "Anet Partners". These were available to spectate AFTER the games were over (I believe for technical reasons to stop servers or games having problems with multiple people joining the lobby to spectate). I wish the Automated Tournaments in Guild Wars 2 were available to spectate by everyone, at least then that would be one way for players to watch top players, see how they play and learn from it. I really don't get why this feature is allowed only for "Anet Partners".

I hope a developer sees this thread as constructive feedback and will try and make an improvement to the current system.

[choovanski.5462]

there is only duo queue in ranked

why on earth would anyone be motivated to teach someone to play if they can't play w them because they already have duo partners?

you can say AT, but usually my schedule (and that of others) doesn't allow for them. so with no actual team outlet, there is no motivation to create PvP guilds and teach people how to play, because you won't be able to play w them.

ever since team queue was removed the PvP community has been dead. all the PvP guilds died, because there was no longer any point in knowing more than one other player.

so it's just selfish solo queue now, where everyone is out for themselves and blames everything on their team. so ofc they won't reach out to teach you, they are hoping you will just not be on their team again. they don't care, you aren't their responsibility, and they don't believe in charity.

look, you can hit me up in DMs here for discord and I can show you some ropes sometime, that's all I can offer. community has been crap ever since solo queue

[Sneakers.8462]

@choovanski.5462 said:there is only duo queue in ranked

why on earth would anyone be motivated to teach someone to play if they can't play w them because they already have duo partners?

you can say AT, but usually my schedule (and that of others) doesn't allow for them. so with no actual team outlet, there is no motivation to create PvP guilds and teach people how to play, because you won't be able to play w them.

ever since team queue was removed the PvP community has been dead. all the PvP guilds died, because there was no longer any point in knowing more than one other player.

so it's just selfish solo queue now, where everyone is out for themselves and blames everything on their team. so ofc they won't reach out to teach you, they are hoping you will just not be on their team again. they don't care, you aren't their responsibility, and they don't believe in charity.

look, you can hit me up in DMs here for discord and I can show you some ropes sometime, that's all I can offer. community has been kitten ever since solo queue

I don't need help with PvP as I'm already with a team and know what I'm doing, but thankyou for offering help. Not enough people do it :)

[Rukia.4802]

@"Broady.2358" said:Thanks for people replying but it seems to be pretty decisive. The game does a bad job of helping new players get into PvP. No real guidance on roles, no examples of good builds and more.

I have just thought of one other thing Guild Wars 1 did which was superior too! Top GvG and Heroes Accent games were available to EVERYONE who wanted to spectate them, not just for "Anet Partners". These were available to spectate AFTER the games were over (I believe for technical reasons to stop servers or games having problems with multiple people joining the lobby to spectate). I wish the Automated Tournaments in Guild Wars 2 were available to spectate by everyone, at least then that would be one way for players to watch top players, see how they play and learn from it. I really don't get why this feature is allowed only for "Anet Partners".

I hope a developer sees this thread as constructive feedback and will try and make an improvement to the current system.

Sometimes I would just log in to use the observe mode and watch all the games played recently. GW2 really sucks at promoting pvp.

[TeqkOneStylez.8047]

No one is gonna care enough to search outside of game to learn. They should give general conquest tips in text to speech audio on the respawn count screen when someone dies.

Things like don't 2 v 1 a point that is yours if the other can hold or win the 1 vs 1.

[PLS.4095]

Simply Because Anet Don't Care About PVP.

[Jhule.7230]

@bluri.2653 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@Kuma.1503 said:To be fair, there isn't a whole lot of content out there for players to study up on either. I've done a good bit of searching for videos and written guides on how to improve at PvP, but out of the few there are, none go beyond the basics.

That leaves players to bash their heads against a brick wall for a few weeks or months while they try their best to process what's happening.

It's not like there's must incentive to put in the effort. Gw2 isn't an Esport. The PvP community is so barren that bots are starting to outnumber real players. Why bother investing into this game mode to begin with? Every new player must ask themselves this question.

The top players intentionally mislead and hide information btw.

What ?^No @Shiyo.3578 it 's players like this that pigeon hole classes because they never solo queue and always get carried by the little niche of players in the higher ranks, when they do have to solo queue you can guarantee that they will s**t talk all the players live on stream to hundreds of people and never get banned because anet always listens to the good little streamers that have ruined pvp countless times.

[Daishi.6027]

Feels like when it started out A-net just wanted it to be open-ended and player driven, where they just make the mechanics and we figure out what to do with them. I'm convinced A-net doesn't teach much mostly because they can't, and have little understanding of their meta, outside the balance devs; Whom I doubt have any clout to be like "make training mode a thing; add: X, Y, Z.".Even if I'm wrong, pretty sure their attitude is: "Anyone of the tiny population who cares enough will do their research anyways. Why waste dev time on it?".

But I think conquest in this situation (as well as many others) continues to do a significant disservice to the game, when the strongest aspect of this MMO- it's combat; is bereft of balance to support healthy matchups across the board. Causing us to focus more and more on the 5v5 point sumo/map control type thing... Which isn't exactly easy to understand compared to a MoBA/Dota/AoS, or a strait up fighting game.