DPS meter policy needs to be revised

[PzTnT.7198]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

Everyone's game client needs combat data to be shared. Player doesn't need to see it to play the game. DPS numbers are not sth required for you to complete the content. Just like you don't need to see car's engine to drive it.

Anyway, I am not for deletion of dps meters but for me to choose whether I want to share this data or not. You can make every requirement for me to join your group, like sharing DPS numbers using arcDPS, but it should be my decision to make.

The arcdps meter reads the memory of the client for the combat data even if said data isnt shown. The whole thing is really a "hack" as it were. Anything your client knows can technically be read through similar tools. There are ways to make it more difficult to read stuff from the memory but that tends to be at the cost of performance and ultimately temporary. Which is why cheats (like wallhack etc) for many other games are so hard to outright stop.

[Paladine.6082]

@PzTnT.7198 said:So, lets see here. What would be needed to make a consent thing work?Everyone in a team needs the combat data of the others for the game to function at all.You are making a very odd assumption here - why is this data needed for the client to function? There is zero need for the client to know who did what damage to the mob - the only thing the client needs to know is the current level of HP the mob has and arguably that could even be simplified to whether or not the mob is still alive.

Even if for some bizarre reason ANet have developed the client to explicitly need data on each hit by each player, there is no reason whatsoever why that data can not be anonymised.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@PzTnT.7198 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

Everyone's game client needs combat data to be shared. Player doesn't need to see it to play the game. DPS numbers are not sth required for you to complete the content. Just like you don't need to see car's engine to drive it.

Anyway, I am not for deletion of dps meters but for me to choose whether I want to share this data or not. You can make every requirement for me to join your group, like sharing DPS numbers using arcDPS, but it should be my decision to make.

The arcdps meter reads the memory of the client for the combat data even if said data isnt shown. The whole thing is really a "hack" as it were. Anything your client knows can technically be read through similar tools. There are ways to make it more difficult to read stuff from the memory but that tends to be at the cost of performance and ultimately temporary. Which is why cheats (like wallhack etc) for many other games are so hard to outright stop.

I have no problem with it reading my personal damage if I use it. But this tool reads and shares data of other players, make it visible without their consent or knowledge. Also, ArenaNet takes no responsibility for faulty use of this tool so I should be protected from it if I am not using it myself.

[TheRandomGuy.7246]

@Paladine.6082 said:

@TheRandomGuy.7246 said:

@Paladine.6082 said:This information is not required for the game to function, there is no justifiable reason to broadcast this data without consent.

It is required for the game to function.

No it isn't - the server needs to know how much damage you have done to a mob, the client does not - the client needs to know whether or not the mob still has any HP left if yes, keep hitting it, if no, hits no longer do anything. The client has zero need to know what damage each individual person has done each hit to that mob. There is not even any specific reason why the usernames need to be attached to conditions in the client - it might be "nice to have" but it is certainly not required.

What about boons, conditions, animations, hp bars and so on? They don't matter too?

[Coconut.7082]

@Paladine.6082 said:

@TheRandomGuy.7246 said:

@Paladine.6082 said:This information is not required for the game to function, there is no justifiable reason to broadcast this data without consent.

It is required for the game to function.

No it isn't - the server needs to know how much damage you have done to a mob, the client does not - the client needs to know whether or not the mob still has any HP left if yes, keep hitting it, if no, hits no longer do anything. The client has zero need to know what damage each individual person has done each hit to that mob. There is not even any specific reason why the usernames need to be attached to conditions in the client - it might be "nice to have" but it is certainly not required.

Your client needs to show you various conditions, effects and animations on both the foes and your team mates, therefore needs the information.Also when you join a party or squad you give the participants gain access to both your character name and account name. Arc can only function (on others) when in a group, therefore problem solved. ^^

Your issue is with how the game is built, not ArcDPS.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@TheRandomGuy.7246 said:

@Paladine.6082 said:

@TheRandomGuy.7246 said:

@Paladine.6082 said:This information is not required for the game to function, there is no justifiable reason to broadcast this data without consent.

It is required for the game to function.

No it isn't - the server needs to know how much damage you have done to a mob, the client does not - the client needs to know whether or not the mob still has any HP left if yes, keep hitting it, if no, hits no longer do anything. The client has zero need to know what damage each individual person has done each hit to that mob. There is not even any specific reason why the usernames need to be attached to conditions in the client - it might be "nice to have" but it is certainly not required.

What about boons, conditions, animations, hp bars and so on? They don't matter too?

They are shown in game client, supported by game dev and under its protection. ArcDPS is 3rd party tool which I never agreed to use or share my game client info with.

[PzTnT.7198]

Well, somewhere your client can simply get information that player X does animation Y at location Z and that enemies A through F lose 4000 hp each. This data would really be enough to have the meter guess that player X did 4000 damage to enemies A-F even if there was no name attached to the damage.

[Paladine.6082]

@TheRandomGuy.7246 said:

@Paladine.6082 said:

@TheRandomGuy.7246 said:

@Paladine.6082 said:This information is not required for the game to function, there is no justifiable reason to broadcast this data without consent.

It is required for the game to function.

No it isn't - the server needs to know how much damage you have done to a mob, the client does not - the client needs to know whether or not the mob still has any HP left if yes, keep hitting it, if no, hits no longer do anything. The client has zero need to know what damage each individual person has done each hit to that mob. There is not even any specific reason why the usernames need to be attached to conditions in the client - it might be "nice to have" but it is certainly not required.

What about boons, conditions, animations, hp bars and so on? They don't matter too?

None of these have an impact on DPS unless they are on the mob. If a character needs to be animated to show they have used a specific skill that can be done without the client needing to know how much damage that skill has done - furthermore ALL of this data is received FROM THE SERVER so there is absolutely no reason why it cannot be anonymised. The server can tell each client that Player A used Skill X without telling each client that skill X resulted in a specific amount of damage. The server can send information to each client to say the Mob received X amount of damage so redraw the HP bar - without needing to say WHO caused that damage.

So again, there is no reason why the client cannot receive this data in a privacy respectful way.

[TheRandomGuy.7246]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:They are shown in game client, supported by game dev and under its protection. ArcDPS is 3rd party tool which I never agreed to use or share my game client info with.

And the only way to fix that is to ban the use of dps meters. There is no way around that.

[Paladine.6082]

@Coconut.7082 said:

@Paladine.6082 said:

@TheRandomGuy.7246 said:

@Paladine.6082 said:This information is not required for the game to function, there is no justifiable reason to broadcast this data without consent.

It is required for the game to function.

No it isn't - the server needs to know how much damage you have done to a mob, the client does not - the client needs to know whether or not the mob still has any HP left if yes, keep hitting it, if no, hits no longer do anything. The client has zero need to know what damage each individual person has done each hit to that mob. There is not even any specific reason why the usernames need to be attached to conditions in the client - it might be "nice to have" but it is certainly not required.

Your client needs to show you various conditions, effects and animations on both the foes and your team mates, therefore needs the information.Also when you join a party or squad you give the participants gain access to both your character name and account name. Arc can only function (on others) when in a group, therefore problem solved. ^^

Your issue is with how the game is built, not ArcDPS.

I disagree seem my previous response for why.

My issue is with ANet -and- ArcDPS - ANet should not broadcast this data in the first place and ArcDPS should not be exploiting what is effectively bad design at the expense of users' fundamental right to privacy.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@TheRandomGuy.7246 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:They are shown in game client, supported by game dev and under its protection. ArcDPS is 3rd party tool which I never agreed to use or share my game client info with.

And the only way to fix that is to ban the use of dps meters. There is no way around that.

No. The answer it to limit ArcDPS to show personal data only unless team member agrees to share his ArcDPS values to you. It's on ArenaNet to make policy work this way and on deltaconnected to make their tool be compliant to the rules. Current rules leave me no choice but to agree people are using this hack without any protection from ArenaNet.

[TheRandomGuy.7246]

@Paladine.6082 said:If a character needs to be animated to show they have used a specific skill that can be done without the client needing to know how much damage that skill has done

Hp bar has to go down at some point tho.

[Coconut.7082]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

They are shown in game client, supported by game dev and under its protection. ArcDPS is 3rd party tool which I never agreed to use or share my game client info with.

Your agreement is not needed, since the data was not considered personal by Anet in the first place (Unlike your E-mail, Contact Data, Address, Payment details, Password etc')

@Paladine.6082 said:

@Coconut.7082 said:

@Paladine.6082 said:

@TheRandomGuy.7246 said:

@Paladine.6082 said:This information is not required for the game to function, there is no justifiable reason to broadcast this data without consent.

It is required for the game to function.

No it isn't - the server needs to know how much damage you have done to a mob, the client does not - the client needs to know whether or not the mob still has any HP left if yes, keep hitting it, if no, hits no longer do anything. The client has zero need to know what damage each individual person has done each hit to that mob. There is not even any specific reason why the usernames need to be attached to conditions in the client - it might be "nice to have" but it is certainly not required.

Your client needs to show you various conditions, effects and animations on both the foes and your team mates, therefore needs the information.Also when you join a party or squad you give the participants gain access to both your character name and account name. Arc can only function (on others) when in a group, therefore problem solved. ^^

Your issue is with how the game is built, not ArcDPS.

I disagree seem my previous response for why.

My issue is with ANet -and- ArcDPS - ANet should not broadcast this data in the first place and ArcDPS should not be exploiting what is effectively bad design at the expense of users' fundamental right to privacy.

So basically, to fix the real issue from the core, you want Anet to redesign their game? Good Luck with that.

Both of you are missing one thing: Anet gets to choose which data is private and which is not (and right now, combat data is not considered private), you signed their Terms & Conditions when buying the games, therefore agreed to their rules.Anet can choose to do whatever they want with the "non-private" data, they can post it on the national news if they like.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

Your agreement is not needed, since the data was not considered personal by Anet in the first place (Unlike your E-mail, Contact Data, Address, Payment details, Password etc')

The reason why this statement is wrong is already explained in previous posts by @Paladine.6082 so I'm not going to repeat them. Feel free to read the thread.

[Coconut.7082]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

Your agreement is not needed, since the data was not considered personal by Anet in the first place (Unlike your E-mail, Contact Data, Address, Payment details, Password etc')

The reason why this statement is wrong is already explained in previous posts by @"Paladine.6082" so I'm not going to repeat them. Feel free to read the thread.

Apologies, I don't care about the topic enough to read Mr. Paladine.6082's book, though I already explained why his problem is with the core design of the game's engine and not ArcDPS.

As for your request, as I said earlier, I don't agree nor disagree with it, but you have to look at it realistically. In order for something similar to your request to happen, one to the following needs to happen first:

1. Anet develops & implements an official DPS meter in the game, which has those "limitations".
2. Anet officially acknowledges ArcDPS as well as supports it & takes responsibility for it's outcomes.

Without one of those, nothing can change.

[TheRandomGuy.7246]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

Your agreement is not needed, since the data was not considered personal by Anet in the first place (Unlike your E-mail, Contact Data, Address, Payment details, Password etc')

The reason why this statement is wrong is already explained in previous posts by @Paladine.6082 so I'm not going to repeat them. Feel free to read the thread.

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

Your agreement is not needed, since the data was not considered personal by Anet in the first place (Unlike your E-mail, Contact Data, Address, Payment details, Password etc')

The reason why this statement is wrong is already explained in previous posts by @Paladine.6082 so I'm not going to repeat them. Feel free to read the thread.

He said that it is illegal to look at the screen in online games. This is not an explanation.

[Paladine.6082]

@Coconut.7082 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

They are shown in game client, supported by game dev and under its protection. ArcDPS is 3rd party tool which I never agreed to use or share my game client info with.

Your agreement is not needed, since the data was not considered personal by Anet in the first place (Unlike your E-mail, Contact Data, Address, Payment details, Password etc')

@Paladine.6082 said:

@Coconut.7082 said:

@Paladine.6082 said:

@TheRandomGuy.7246 said:

@Paladine.6082 said:This information is not required for the game to function, there is no justifiable reason to broadcast this data without consent.

It is required for the game to function.

No it isn't - the server needs to know how much damage you have done to a mob, the client does not - the client needs to know whether or not the mob still has any HP left if yes, keep hitting it, if no, hits no longer do anything. The client has zero need to know what damage each individual person has done each hit to that mob. There is not even any specific reason why the usernames need to be attached to conditions in the client - it might be "nice to have" but it is certainly not required.

Your client needs to show you various conditions, effects and animations on both the foes and your team mates, therefore needs the information.Also when you join a party or squad you give the participants gain access to both your character name and account name. Arc can only function (on others) when in a group, therefore problem solved. ^^

Your issue is with how the game is built, not ArcDPS.

I disagree seem my previous response for why.

My issue is with ANet -and- ArcDPS - ANet should not broadcast this data in the first place and ArcDPS should not be exploiting what is effectively bad design at the expense of users' fundamental right to privacy.

So basically, to fix the real issue from the core, you want Anet to redesign their game? Good Luck with that.

Both of you are missing one thing: Anet gets to choose which data is private and which is not (and right now, combat data is not considered private), you signed their Terms & Conditions when buying the games, therefore agreed to their rules.Anet can choose to do whatever they want with the "non-private" data, they can post it on the national news if they like.

Are you really that ignorant? No ANet do not get to choose which data is personal data or not - that is defined by law, laws which ANet are required to follow or face penalties. Furthermore (and again this illustrates your ignorance) you cannot contract away your legal rights - so no matter what the T&Cs state (and they do not state anything whatsoever to support the use of ArcDPS by the way) those terms can never override your legal rights - any terms which attempt to do so are invalid in the eyes of the law and in many cases can render the entire contract invalid.

[Panda.1967]

@Coulter.2315 said:

@Panda.1967 said:

In other MMOs classes have defined roles, Tanks and Healers are accepted to not need to deal high damage. People don't question your DPS when you're not on a DPS class in those games. Here however, the game was designed to not have roles and not need roles, but at the same time was designed to allow for builds that fit into defined roles. Any class can play as a healer, tank, CC, or DPS. If I build for anything other than DPS, then my DPS is obviously going to be low. DPS meters have fueled the mentality of "DPS or bust", very few classes are given a break by the DPS meter community when it comes to this. If I'm on my elementalist I'm expected to be playing as a glass cannon with massive DPS, an expectation that I will not live up to on my elementalist, I run a support build. A DPS meter won't tell anyone that though. They will see that I'm an elementalist with Tempest elite spec and assume "Fresh Air DPS who's not even coming close to the 30k DPS benchmark, time to kick". The single focus "DPS or bust" outlook of a lot of the community is a problem that is fueled and exacerbated by DPS meters.

You could just tell the group you're support. This is just a communication problem, DPS eles are the norm and it is reasonable to assume you're DPS when you join as ele. Once people know you're in the tank/support role they just ignore your DPS like any other game.

I've tried. Do you know what the result was? "Tempests are only DPS, GFTO - Kick" or "Only Druid's are support, go DPS or GTFO - Kick" This happened EVERY SINGLE TIME. Even one time I got the response of "You're a DPS because I say you're a DPS - Kick"

@Deihnyx.6318 said:

@Panda.1967 said:In other MMOs classes have defined roles, Tanks and Healers are accepted to not need to deal high damage. People don't question your DPS when you're not on a DPS class in those games. Here however, the game was designed to not have roles and not need roles, but at the same time was designed to allow for builds that fit into defined roles. Any class can play as a healer, tank, CC, or DPS. If I build for anything other than DPS, then my DPS is obviously going to be low. DPS meters have fueled the mentality of "DPS or bust", very few classes are given a break by the DPS meter community when it comes to this. If I'm on my elementalist I'm expected to be playing as a glass cannon with massive DPS, an expectation that I will not live up to on my elementalist, I run a support build. A DPS meter won't tell anyone that though. They will see that I'm an elementalist with Tempest elite spec and assume "Fresh Air DPS who's not even coming close to the 30k DPS benchmark, time to kick". The single focus "DPS or bust" outlook of a lot of the community is a problem that is fueled and exacerbated by DPS meters.

That is not true. If you're mesmer or druid in raids, people won't expect high dps (even if you can...)However they will expect you to know mechanics and know when to do support/tricks (mesmer) or heal (druid) etc.There's a few scenario where auramancer works well too.There are elite classes dedicated to support or healing now.

Thats part of the problem that's been created from DPS meters, there are more class the that can be support than just Ranger(Druid) and Mesmer(Chrono). But because X class can output 30k DPS with a glass cannon DPS build, it must always be DPS, even though it can be played as a very efficient support. This mentality only surfaced when DPS meters were approved. Yes, people were kicked because of assumptions regarding classes prior, but such incidents were far less common than the issues we see today.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@Coconut.7082 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

Your agreement is not needed, since the data was not considered personal by Anet in the first place (Unlike your E-mail, Contact Data, Address, Payment details, Password etc')

The reason why this statement is wrong is already explained in previous posts by @"Paladine.6082" so I'm not going to repeat them. Feel free to read the thread.

Apologies, I don't care about the topic enough to read Mr. Paladine.6082's book, though I already explained why his problem is with the core design of the game's engine and not ArcDPS.

As for your request, as I said earlier, I don't agree nor disagree with it, but you have to look at it realistically. In order for something similar to your request to happen, one to the following needs to happen first:

1. Anet develops & implements an official DPS meter in the game, which has those "limitations".
2. Anet officially acknowledges ArcDPS as well as supports it & takes responsibility for it's outcomes.

Without one of those, nothing can change.

BGDM didn't allow you to see my dps number until I made a decision to connect to you and share my numbers. People never had issues with this and that's all I'm asking for to be implemented in ArenaNet policy and ArcDPS. It should be my choice to share my numbers with you.

[Paladine.6082]

@TheRandomGuy.7246 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

Your agreement is not needed, since the data was not considered personal by Anet in the first place (Unlike your E-mail, Contact Data, Address, Payment details, Password etc')

The reason why this statement is wrong is already explained in previous posts by @Paladine.6082 so I'm not going to repeat them. Feel free to read the thread.

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

Your agreement is not needed, since the data was not considered personal by Anet in the first place (Unlike your E-mail, Contact Data, Address, Payment details, Password etc')

The reason why this statement is wrong is already explained in previous posts by @Paladine.6082 so I'm not going to repeat them. Feel free to read the thread.

He said that it is illegal to look at the screen in online games. This is not an explanation.

I never said any such thing.

[MarkoNS.3261]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@MarkoNS.3261 said:a dps meter is quite the useful tool to see who is performing bad, it is not fair to the other 4 or 9 people in a group if 1 person is bad and drags the group down. i would go even further have inspect by default and filters for bad players so we dont have to deal with them.

in your head because you see performance as more imortant than other elements of gameplay. 'drag down' 'carry', 'underperforming' , 'they are noobs' 'bad players' its all the same, negative evaluation of other real players based on your mental picture of what is good.

if you were playing with a group of players in your home on a cooperative board game, would you need to evaluate and 'deal' with poor players?

yeah and what is so wrong with wanting to optimize runs and kick bad players, i see nothing wrong with it. also i am playing an mmorpg not a board game, not in a net cafe or something and i dont really understand whats your point with this line. and obviously people judge others performance in their head with their own criteria what other way is there.

[TheRandomGuy.7246]

@Paladine.6082 said:

@TheRandomGuy.7246 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

Your agreement is not needed, since the data was not considered personal by Anet in the first place (Unlike your E-mail, Contact Data, Address, Payment details, Password etc')

The reason why this statement is wrong is already explained in previous posts by @Paladine.6082 so I'm not going to repeat them. Feel free to read the thread.

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

Your agreement is not needed, since the data was not considered personal by Anet in the first place (Unlike your E-mail, Contact Data, Address, Payment details, Password etc')

The reason why this statement is wrong is already explained in previous posts by @Paladine.6082 so I'm not going to repeat them. Feel free to read the thread.

He said that it is illegal to look at the screen in online games. This is not an explanation.

I never said any such thing.

You said multiple times that sharing combat data is illegal because it is private information. To play online games and keep your combat data private you must disconnect players around you and/or turn off their monitors so they can't see you.

[Coconut.7082]

@Paladine.6082 said:Are you really that ignorant? No ANet do not get to choose which data is personal data or not - that is defined by law, laws which ANet are required to follow or face penalties. Furthermore (and again this illustrates your ignorance) you cannot contract away your legal rights - so no matter what the T&Cs state (and they do not state anything whatsoever to support the use of ArcDPS by the way) those terms can never override your legal rights - any terms which attempt to do so are invalid in the eyes of the law and in many cases can render the entire contract invalid.

Nice meme bro.Go ahead and sue Anet for showing the precious personal damage you did to an imaginary enemy in an online game, but please, record the trial and upload it here!While you are at it, also sue the members of your party for looking at their buff bar and knowing which boons you've provided them with!

@Kheldorn.5123 said:BGDM didn't allow you to see my dps number until I made a decision to connect to you and share my numbers. People never had issues with this and that's all I'm asking for to be implemented in ArenaNet policy and ArcDPS. It should be my choice to share my numbers with you.

BDGM worked differently than Arc, also BDGM did show the Buffs/Boons of your whole group without the others having it installed, why is that different than your DPS numbers?

Again, it makes no difference for me, I simply stated what needs to happen before they can make such change.

[Panda.1967]

@maddoctor.2738 said:I see this thread is still going.A couple of things, first in instanced content the dps meters are indeed opt-in. When you join an experienced group there is a higher possibility that a meter will be used, especially if something goes horribly wrong.

They are not opt-in. In order for them to be opt-in the choice must ALWAYS be present to everyone. Where is the choice when someone who's using a DPS meter joins a party that is not? The only one who had a choice there was the one using the DPS meter, that's not an opt-in system, that is a forced-in system.

[ugrakarma.9416]

Character "privacy" is not same as the "player privacy". Unless they are providing information from your real life, the argument is meaningless.

I have no idea of the type of "contract" of the anet with the user and neither is something that matters to me, but if it is like the other MMos there, 99% the user is not the real "owner" of the character. the company is the owner of Character data, not the player. Otherwise, people would sue producers who have banned accounts, characters in these games since years ago.