DPS meter policy needs to be revised

[FOX.3582]

@Fallesafe.5932 said:The only reason somebody would have an issue with this is if they wanted to hide their poor performance.

What you do when you join a group is the business of the whole group (since everyone's time and effort are involved). It's not a matter of "privacy" to go AFK and let everyone else do the work. It's not a matter of "privacy" to be ignorant of the fight mechanics. And it isn't a matter of privacy to do 1/4 of the damage you should be doing to pull your weight.

DPS-meters only have value, as diagnostic tools, in context of the group. For example... I joined a T4, Thaumanova-Reactor group that was wiping over and over to Subject 6. The DPS-meter showed that everybody was doing less than 2500 dps (horrendous). So instead of wasting any more time, I wished everyone "good luck" and left. What good would it have done me to only know that my numbers were ok?

We have every right to know when we're involved in hopeless groups. There's no "privacy" issue whatsoever. It's a red-herring. Your name, address, phone-number, etc... those are actual privacy issues.

I don’t need a dps-meter in cases like this to know that my group sucks lol. I know when I play good and my rotations are always on point. If a group fails, it’s not me...

[Rhanoa.3960]

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Rhanoa.3960 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Javelin.7960 said:

@Deihnyx.6318 said:

@Javelin.7960 said:

@TexZero.7910 said:

@Javelin.7960 said:I don't think anyone in this thread is a senior developer or producer for this game. None of us are making resource allocation decisions, so feel free to 'dream big'. As a concept, absent any resource constraints, would you have a problem with a programmatic solution that addressed the concern and allowed individual accounts to disable DPS metering for their toons, provided their status in that regard was publicly provided prior to joining a group/squad/whatever?

I just don't see why anyone would have a problem with that, rationales used to justify it notwithstanding.

Why ?

If you absolutely do not want DPS meters, don't install one and don't join groups that use them. It's the much simpler approach and requires significantly less overhead.Sorry if you don't like my liberal nature when it comes to programming but there's never been a need to add more checks when a human system already exist.

I asked a simple question, one I've asked repeatedly and apparently has people so terrified they'll say about anything to avoid answering it. It's a conceptual question, not a resource question, not a question of practicality. The current status of things isn't relevant to it, it's about of how things could be, not how things are today.

I get it though, if I were some of you I'd not want to admit I'm opposed to my fellow players having a choice that wouldn't impact me negatively, it's not the sort of opinion people want to broadcast about themselves.

I'm not opposed to anything including enabled/disabled dps meters, but your answer sounds a lot more like someone who's ignoring/refusing the fact that you already have a choice, as said and repeated many times.You're free to believe what you want, though.(btw: you're doing strawman yourself at the end, how great is it...)

Things get pretty bogged down in a discussion when people won't give you a straight answer. This entire thread has basically gone like this:

"I want a choice.""You don't need a choice.""I still want one.""You must suck if you want a choice. Get gud.""Maybe I do, but I still want a choice.""The thing you want a choice over, isn't a problem, because I said so.""Great opinion. I still want a choice.""Why don't you just quit, if you're so determined to have a choice?""I could do that, but I'd rather just have a choice.""People are always going to be mean, so having a choice is pointless.""Why are you so opposed to me having a choice?""Didn't you hear me the first time, stop wanting a choice!""Not gonna happen.""Choices are impossible, it's never been done before. It would be expensive. Trust me.""Why are you so opposed to me having a choice again? I don't think you answered me the first time I asked.""This is kitten, just use the existing systems, even though obviously you don't think they're adequate or you wouldn't be asking for a choice.....""...."

People have the right to express their opinions. It's obvious from this thread that quite a few players feel the existing systems aren't adequate to address this problem. So yes, I'm ignoring that suggestion because frankly it's the equivalent of saying 'If you don't like the rules, don't play.' I've got just as much right to enjoy this game as anyone else, and if I see something I think could be improved, I may decide to comment on it. Don't like it? Tough.

There is a choice, it’s called the LFG postings and managing self created groups, blocking/reporting , pretty simple concept, go search the forums for the Stance Anet stated the choice is part of starting and joining groups.

Well, you are obviously not as OLD SCHOOL as some us. You neglected to mention in game Chat. Those days were awesome!

That literally has no relevance to what I have stated, since I am talking about the tools available in game at this exact moment in Time, and fun fact been playing the game since launch. Try harder next time lulz. Nice attempt though, still avoiding my One extremely simple question I asked earlier though lulz.

You listed the very tools that are available to us, however, you continue to overlook the obvious.

[FOX.3582]

@AegisRunestone.8672 said:Yes, because kicking someone from a party and tearing them down is a GREAT way to help them improve.

Actually, it's not.

Have any of you ever considered that the person who's "not pulling their weight" (when they very well could be trying their best to) is a human being and not a tool? Have you ever considered that this person may be sensitive? Have you ever considered if all you care about is winning that you should just play single player games? Have you considered before calling out someone saying "git gud," "grow a backbone," "get thick skin," and/or "grow a pair" is rude and inconsiderate to another human being? Especially if you don't help them out with a "you can do it!" attitude and instead a "you suck" attitude?

Have you considered that just because you have thick skin that the other player may not? Have you considered that growing thick skin doesn't happen in seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, or even months? Years are more realistic. The others? Not so much. Months may be, but it depends on the person and how many months it could take. Why? Because we're all different, and we all progress and change at different rates.

Oh, yes, it does suck when you lose progress because someone made a mistake in a raid and cost you about an hour of playtime. You get upset, you get angry. But you have no right to take it out on the player or your squad or anyone. That is toxic behavior. Instead, take your angry energy and channel it into energy you can use for positive results/progress.

Yes, you basically wasted time. But isn't that video games are? A waste of time? Arguing and fighting each other over virtual things which you'll eventually abandon for a future game?

The DPS meters may be safe to use by Anet's standards at the moment, but they give toxic players a reason to be even more toxic and get away with it. They see other players as tools. They never consider that the other person is a human being behind the character; a human with flaws just like them, a human with feelings just like them. Someone snaps at you. Before you react, STOP and think: maybe they're having a bad day? Maybe there's a lot of stress on their back in real life right now and they're playing GW2 to relax. But because, according to the DPS meter and not their actual intentions or attempts, they're "not pulling their weight" you decide to kick them and make their life worse. And yes, in some ways, I'm exaggerating here in order to get my point across.

Until people learn that other players and posters on the internet are actual human beings behind the character/screen with feelings, flaws, talents, etc. and everyone respects each other for that, the internet, online games, etc. will remain toxic and unfriendly. And programs like DPS Meters just allow people to justify the disrespect that plagues the internet.

No, you cannot change the other person(s). You can only change yourself. I recommend googling "The Serenity Prayer," reading it and thinking about it before you log in again.

Have you ever thought about the 90% of this game’s playerbase that want everything in game by stationary pressing “111111”?

[FOX.3582]

@Oglaf.1074 said:Honestly, I can see both sides of the argument. When I first started raiding and the squad leader mentioned my DPS I was quite shocked that he could somehow "spy" on me like that. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't bothered by it. Quite a lot actually.

But on the other hand, Anet made the first mistake in making raids basically a DPS race with enrage timers and other silliness (such as being able to skip updraft at Gorseval if you have enough DPS, something with greatly speeds up the fight) so DPS meters are merely a reactionary necessity to something Anet designed to begin with.

This is the best comment on this topic!Anet created this shtfest in the first place. They create a game were you can get everything by only pressing 11111. They create dozens of useless stat-combos like Nomad-gear. And after al that krap, they come up with raids and make it exactly the same as how dungeons were in the old days only this time it’s for 10 people. Haha.

Ps: I personally like raids tho :p but they should've made them differently.

[Javelin.7960]

@Evolute.6239 said:I'm not sure how someone can view a DPS meter in its current form as a negative thing. GW2 has such a simplistic party join and LFG system that you can both create your own groups and block/ignore anyone who is rude or you feel imposes on how you want to play the game.

To claim "I want a choice" is flawed, because you have a choice. Your choice is to make your own group and not care, or join groups that don't care.

Hiding damage numbers serves virtually no purpose, especially in content such as high end fractals and raids, in which DPS (shockingly) matters. If you're AFK auto attacking, it's immediately obvious. If you're hard carrying a group, it's immediately obvious. And these things may be good or bad (maybe it's a casual initate fractal that dies regardless and you want to look around the scenery or something) but it can matter.

This is not a single player RPG, it requires co-op grouping and generally requires people to carry their own weight in order to be successful. It's inconsiderate and disrespectful to expect others to carry someones weight. Not everyone has hours to spend playing this game, especially so wiping to things because people are flat out not playing their classes properly. It's not like the tools are not readily available, things like qT or Snowcrows exist and there are plenty of YouTube and other content creators who post everything you would ever need to know about classes.

Hiding tools because you're afraid or feel it will "intrude on privacy" is such bologna. Trying to link it to suicide because it can "cause bullying which is cyber bullying which people have killed themselves over" is downright offensive. It's like trying to claim people not liking Charr's should be bannable because it's racist and people have died because of racism. What kind of mental gymnastic leap is this?

For the record I'm relatively new (3-4 months now) and I've only dipped my toes in raiding (escort/MO/sam) and gone up to T2 fractals and I've literally NEVER seen or been exclu0ded for any DPS reasons. Then again, I also don't try to force myself into "300 LI" or "experienced" groups which EXPECT that which is their choice and I completely respect that and hope to one day become comfortable enough to lot myself into that group.

I first started playing GuildWars in June of 2005. I've been through a lot of MMOs, the thing that has always set GW/GW2 apart is the core casual nature of the game. It's built right in to the game; the original was even more casual at it's core, your basic junk tier level 20 sword had effectively the same stats as a weapon someone would grind for months to acquire. GW2 is a bit more tiered that that, but still, the exotic gear you can cobble together from story quests and drops is only marginally worse than Ascended stuff which people spend 150G to craft a full set of, which is identical stat wise to Legendary which people grind for months to obtain.

The game is nicknamed Fashion Wars for a reason.

What I'm getting at is, GuildWars2 isn't other MMOs. The idea of a DPS meter doesn't sit well with some of the people who play this game, in a way that doesn't translate to other MMOs. I play GuildWars because of it's casual nature, not in spite of it. I didn't flee a failing WoW to come here, I've been here all along. I just hope ANet understands better than any of us where there playerbase is on this issue.

[Evolute.6239]

@Javelin.7960 said:

@Evolute.6239 said:I'm not sure how someone can view a DPS meter in its current form as a negative thing. GW2 has such a simplistic party join and LFG system that you can both create your own groups and block/ignore anyone who is rude or you feel imposes on how you want to play the game.

To claim "I want a choice" is flawed, because you have a choice. Your choice is to make your own group and not care, or join groups that don't care.

Hiding damage numbers serves virtually no purpose, especially in content such as high end fractals and raids, in which DPS (

shockingly

) matters. If you're AFK auto attacking, it's immediately obvious. If you're hard carrying a group, it's immediately obvious. And these things may be good or bad (maybe it's a casual initate fractal that dies regardless and you want to look around the scenery or something) but it can matter.

This is not a single player RPG, it requires co-op grouping and generally requires people to carry their own weight in order to be successful. It's inconsiderate and disrespectful to expect others to carry someones weight. Not everyone has hours to spend playing this game, especially so wiping to things because people are flat out not playing their classes properly. It's not like the tools are not readily available, things like qT or Snowcrows exist and there are plenty of YouTube and other content creators who post everything you would ever need to know about classes.

Hiding tools because you're afraid or feel it will "intrude on privacy" is such bologna. Trying to link it to suicide because it can "cause bullying which is cyber bullying which people have killed themselves over" is downright offensive. It's like trying to claim people not liking Charr's should be bannable because it's racist and people have died because of racism. What kind of mental gymnastic leap is this?

For the record I'm relatively new (3-4 months now) and I've only dipped my toes in raiding (escort/MO/sam) and gone up to T2 fractals and I've literally NEVER seen or been exclu0ded for any DPS reasons. Then again, I also don't try to force myself into "300 LI" or "experienced" groups which

EXPECT

that which is their choice and I completely respect that and hope to one day become comfortable enough to lot myself into that group.

I first started playing GuildWars in June of 2005. I've been through a lot of MMOs, the thing that has always set GW/GW2 apart is the core casual nature of the game. It's built right in to the game; the original was even more casual at it's core, your basic junk tier level 20 sword had effectively the same stats as a weapon someone would grind for months to acquire. GW2 is a bit more tiered that that, but still, the exotic gear you can cobble together from story quests and drops is only marginally worse than Ascended stuff which people spend 150G to craft a full set of, which is identical stat wise to Legendary which people grind for months to obtain.

The game is nicknamed Fashion Wars for a reason.

What I'm getting at is, GuildWars2 isn't other MMOs. The idea of a DPS meter doesn't sit well with some of the people who play this game, in a way that doesn't translate to other MMOs. I play GuildWars

because

of it's casual nature, not in spite of it. I didn't flee a failing WoW to come here, I've been here all along. I just hope ANet understands better than any of us where there playerbase is on this issue.

Yes, but it's not like DPS meters infringe on anything related to casualness. For the record, let's not relate "casual" to "bad", a lot of people do this. Spamming 1 on a mob compared to doing a proper DPS roation doesn't make one hardcore or casual, and neither does having or caring about DPS numbers. That's besides the argument and should have no relevance to DPS meters. A lot of "hardcore" people can be absolutely horrid at playing their characters and just play a lot of hours, and someone can be the best player ever and play 30 minutes.

Any and all content can be done doing pretty darn awful damage numbers in this game. Most content can virtually be done by random button mashing. In which case is no where near WoW or whatever.

One can make arguments that the addition of DPS meters add eliteism to games. Okay, that is a discussion point I guess, not that I agree with that because people will always find something best. Even without DPS meters people still kicked bearbow rangers on release in dungeons, yes? What would you do to rectify that? Because it's virtually the same argument that's being made. People want to kill things efficiently and succesfully and to know nobody is wasting their time by playing things ineffectively because of pure laziness (lets face it, that's what it is, unless you have a literal physical disability that impairs your gaming).

Making it a privacy argument is just silly. Your numbers mean effectively nothing in anything but T4 or Raid content and if anyone happens TO bring up numbers in a dumb way you can and should block them. If you remove DPS meters you're just hurting the community at large, and if you remove your own DPS you're basically just admitting you don't care about trying your best which will make the elitism worse. I know I wouldn't group with these people in most circumstances unless I wanted to be helpful to new players.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@Javelin.7960 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Rhanoa.3960 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Javelin.7960 said:

@Deihnyx.6318 said:

@Javelin.7960 said:

@TexZero.7910 said:

@Javelin.7960 said:I don't think anyone in this thread is a senior developer or producer for this game. None of us are making resource allocation decisions, so feel free to 'dream big'. As a concept, absent any resource constraints, would you have a problem with a programmatic solution that addressed the concern and allowed individual accounts to disable DPS metering for their toons, provided their status in that regard was publicly provided prior to joining a group/squad/whatever?

I just don't see why anyone would have a problem with that, rationales used to justify it notwithstanding.

Why ?

If you absolutely do not want DPS meters, don't install one and don't join groups that use them. It's the much simpler approach and requires significantly less overhead.Sorry if you don't like my liberal nature when it comes to programming but there's never been a need to add more checks when a human system already exist.

I asked a simple question, one I've asked repeatedly and apparently has people so terrified they'll say about anything to avoid answering it. It's a conceptual question, not a resource question, not a question of practicality. The current status of things isn't relevant to it, it's about of how things could be, not how things are today.

I get it though, if I were some of you I'd not want to admit I'm opposed to my fellow players having a choice that wouldn't impact me negatively, it's not the sort of opinion people want to broadcast about themselves.

I'm not opposed to anything including enabled/disabled dps meters, but your answer sounds a lot more like someone who's ignoring/refusing the fact that you already have a choice, as said and repeated many times.You're free to believe what you want, though.(btw: you're doing strawman yourself at the end, how great is it...)

Things get pretty bogged down in a discussion when people won't give you a straight answer. This entire thread has basically gone like this:

"I want a choice.""You don't need a choice.""I still want one.""You must suck if you want a choice. Get gud.""Maybe I do, but I still want a choice.""The thing you want a choice over, isn't a problem, because I said so.""Great opinion. I still want a choice.""Why don't you just quit, if you're so determined to have a choice?""I could do that, but I'd rather just have a choice.""People are always going to be mean, so having a choice is pointless.""Why are you so opposed to me having a choice?""Didn't you hear me the first time, stop wanting a choice!""Not gonna happen.""Choices are impossible, it's never been done before. It would be expensive. Trust me.""Why are you so opposed to me having a choice again? I don't think you answered me the first time I asked.""This is kitten, just use the existing systems, even though obviously you don't think they're adequate or you wouldn't be asking for a choice.....""...."

People have the right to express their opinions. It's obvious from this thread that quite a few players feel the existing systems aren't adequate to address this problem. So yes, I'm ignoring that suggestion because frankly it's the equivalent of saying 'If you don't like the rules, don't play.' I've got just as much right to enjoy this game as anyone else, and if I see something I think could be improved, I may decide to comment on it. Don't like it? Tough.

There is a choice, it’s called the LFG postings and managing self created groups, blocking/reporting , pretty simple concept, go search the forums for the Stance Anet stated the choice is part of starting and joining groups.

Well, you are obviously not as OLD SCHOOL as some us. You neglected to mention in game Chat. Those days were awesome!

That literally has no relevance to what I have stated, since I am talking about the tools available in game at this exact moment in Time, and fun fact been playing the game since launch. Try harder next time lulz. Nice attempt though.

Speaking of nice attempts, responding that people need to use the existing tools to a post that contained this:

It's obvious from this thread that quite a few players feel the existing systems aren't adequate to address this problem.

It's OK at this point to assume that people might just not agree with you, instead of being condescending and acting like they don't know how to use the basic systems in the game. And no one, except you, is talking about the current rules; the entire point of this thread is to discuss how they might better be changed to serve the community. So citing the existing rules, doesn't really mean anything.

Oh so you admit that all the tools the Op wants added in game already exist and this thread is pointless, good to hear, since everything the Op wants is accomplished with the existing tools that already give the Op full choice on show he groups with and limits exposure to those he doesn’t aka the Combat Meter users. So no developer time/resources need to be wasted on something already existing in game that does what Op wants, pretty simple concept, and again Anet stated they won’t support Combat Meters in anyway(that means adding opt out features, I feel like I have to put that)

[Javelin.7960]

@Evolute.6239 said:

@Javelin.7960 said:

@Evolute.6239 said:I'm not sure how someone can view a DPS meter in its current form as a negative thing. GW2 has such a simplistic party join and LFG system that you can both create your own groups and block/ignore anyone who is rude or you feel imposes on how you want to play the game.

To claim "I want a choice" is flawed, because you have a choice. Your choice is to make your own group and not care, or join groups that don't care.

Hiding damage numbers serves virtually no purpose, especially in content such as high end fractals and raids, in which DPS (

shockingly

) matters. If you're AFK auto attacking, it's immediately obvious. If you're hard carrying a group, it's immediately obvious. And these things may be good or bad (maybe it's a casual initate fractal that dies regardless and you want to look around the scenery or something) but it can matter.

This is not a single player RPG, it requires co-op grouping and generally requires people to carry their own weight in order to be successful. It's inconsiderate and disrespectful to expect others to carry someones weight. Not everyone has hours to spend playing this game, especially so wiping to things because people are flat out not playing their classes properly. It's not like the tools are not readily available, things like qT or Snowcrows exist and there are plenty of YouTube and other content creators who post everything you would ever need to know about classes.

Hiding tools because you're afraid or feel it will "intrude on privacy" is such bologna. Trying to link it to suicide because it can "cause bullying which is cyber bullying which people have killed themselves over" is downright offensive. It's like trying to claim people not liking Charr's should be bannable because it's racist and people have died because of racism. What kind of mental gymnastic leap is this?

For the record I'm relatively new (3-4 months now) and I've only dipped my toes in raiding (escort/MO/sam) and gone up to T2 fractals and I've literally NEVER seen or been exclu0ded for any DPS reasons. Then again, I also don't try to force myself into "300 LI" or "experienced" groups which

EXPECT

that which is their choice and I completely respect that and hope to one day become comfortable enough to lot myself into that group.

I first started playing GuildWars in June of 2005. I've been through a lot of MMOs, the thing that has always set GW/GW2 apart is the core casual nature of the game. It's built right in to the game; the original was even more casual at it's core, your basic junk tier level 20 sword had effectively the same stats as a weapon someone would grind for months to acquire. GW2 is a bit more tiered that that, but still, the exotic gear you can cobble together from story quests and drops is only marginally worse than Ascended stuff which people spend 150G to craft a full set of, which is identical stat wise to Legendary which people grind for months to obtain.

The game is nicknamed Fashion Wars for a reason.

What I'm getting at is, GuildWars2 isn't other MMOs. The idea of a DPS meter doesn't sit well with some of the people who play this game, in a way that doesn't translate to other MMOs. I play GuildWars

because

of it's casual nature, not in spite of it. I didn't flee a failing WoW to come here, I've been here all along. I just hope ANet understands better than any of us where there playerbase is on this issue.

Yes, but it's not like DPS meters infringe on anything related to casualness. For the record, let's not relate "casual" to "bad", a lot of people do this. Spamming 1 on a mob compared to doing a proper DPS roation doesn't make one hardcore or casual, and neither does having or caring about DPS numbers. That's besides the argument and should have no relevance to DPS meters. A lot of "hardcore" people can be absolutely horrid at playing their characters and just play a lot of hours, and someone can be the best player ever and play 30 minutes.

Any and all content can be done doing pretty darn awful damage numbers in this game. Most content

can

virtually be done by random button mashing. In which case is no where near WoW or whatever.

One can make arguments that the addition of DPS meters add eliteism to games. Okay, that is a discussion point I guess, not that I agree with that because people will always find something best. Even without DPS meters people still kicked bearbow rangers on release in dungeons, yes? What would you do to rectify that? Because it's virtually the same argument that's being made. People want to kill things efficiently and succesfully and to know nobody is wasting their time by playing things ineffectively because of pure laziness (lets face it, that's what it is, unless you have a literal physical disability that impairs your gaming).

Making it a privacy argument is just silly. Your numbers mean effectively nothing in anything but T4 or Raid content and if anyone happens TO bring up numbers in a kitten way you can and should block them. If you remove DPS meters you're just hurting the community at large, and if you remove your own DPS you're basically just admitting you don't care about trying your best which will make the elitism worse. I know I wouldn't group with these people in most circumstances unless I wanted to be helpful to new players.

We've been over all of this in the thread already, so I'm going to take the opportunity to step away at this point. I'll just say this: Your perception of what infringes on casualness isn't a fact, it's an opinion. Not everyone agrees with your opinion.

[Deihnyx.6318]

@Javelin.7960 said:

@Deihnyx.6318 said:

@Javelin.7960 said:

@Deihnyx.6318 said:

@Javelin.7960 said:

@TexZero.7910 said:

@Javelin.7960 said:I don't think anyone in this thread is a senior developer or producer for this game. None of us are making resource allocation decisions, so feel free to 'dream big'. As a concept, absent any resource constraints, would you have a problem with a programmatic solution that addressed the concern and allowed individual accounts to disable DPS metering for their toons, provided their status in that regard was publicly provided prior to joining a group/squad/whatever?

I just don't see why anyone would have a problem with that, rationales used to justify it notwithstanding.

Why ?

If you absolutely do not want DPS meters, don't install one and don't join groups that use them. It's the much simpler approach and requires significantly less overhead.Sorry if you don't like my liberal nature when it comes to programming but there's never been a need to add more checks when a human system already exist.

I asked a simple question, one I've asked repeatedly and apparently has people so terrified they'll say about anything to avoid answering it. It's a conceptual question, not a resource question, not a question of practicality. The current status of things isn't relevant to it, it's about of how things could be, not how things are today.

I get it though, if I were some of you I'd not want to admit I'm opposed to my fellow players having a choice that wouldn't impact me negatively, it's not the sort of opinion people want to broadcast about themselves.

I'm not opposed to anything including enabled/disabled dps meters, but your answer sounds a lot more like someone who's ignoring/refusing the fact that you already have a choice, as said and repeated many times.You're free to believe what you want, though.(btw: you're doing strawman yourself at the end, how great is it...)

Things get pretty bogged down in a discussion when people won't give you a straight answer. This entire thread has basically gone like this:

"I want a choice.""You don't need a choice.""I still want one.""You must suck if you want a choice. Get gud.""Maybe I do, but I still want a choice.""The thing you want a choice over, isn't a problem, because I said so.""Great opinion. I still want a choice.""Why don't you just quit, if you're so determined to have a choice?""I could do that, but I'd rather just have a choice.""People are always going to be mean, so having a choice is pointless.""Why are you so opposed to me having a choice?""Didn't you hear me the first time, stop wanting a choice!""Not gonna happen.""Choices are impossible, it's never been done before. It would be expensive. Trust me.""Why are you so opposed to me having a choice again? I don't think you answered me the first time I asked.""This is kitten, just use the existing systems, even though obviously you don't think they're adequate or you wouldn't be asking for a choice.....""...."

People have the right to express their opinions. It's obvious from this thread that quite a few players feel the existing systems aren't adequate to address this problem. So yes, I'm ignoring that suggestion because frankly it's the equivalent of saying 'If you don't like the rules, don't play.' I've got just as much right to enjoy this game as anyone else, and if I see something I think could be improved, I may decide to comment on it. Don't like it? Tough.

My problem is that you're not considering the other side. Players wanting to play with it, wanting to make groups with pugs who also want it, and somehow they couldn't because some of you, for some reason (not judging what) dont want to join their dps train in the group that they made.Whereas the alternative is simple: making a group with your own rules.

From my perspective, if you do that, you are the one forcing your fellow party members to play your way, effectively impacting their right to enjoy the game, in their own group.

It sounds like you believe there are enough players who would choose not be divulge DPS info, if they had that choice, that it might reduce grouping opportunities for those who want to do so. Do I have that right?

I don't believe that. I believe that players who want to play with dps in mind should be able to ask for players with dps meters only, and those who dont should be able to make their own group.Which is exactly how it works right now.

Answering to one of your more recent posts also: Whether you want it or not, GW2 does have some content for more "hardcore" players now. And whether you want it or not, the "dps meter culture" is part of their world as a whole. If you don't want to abide to their "informal" rules, no problem, but then you create your own group and play the way you like.When you raid a lot it's a problem that you will see consistently (unlike trolls joining casual groups to troll them). You will see people who do not abide to the rules of the group (be exp, kill proof etc) try to join and sneak into experienced groups. These "experienced players" have done through long hours of training for most of them, training for mechanics but also perfecting their gameplay, effectively leading to get kills on a regular basis.And when that happens, one of the "tool" to verify why the group is failing so much is dps meter.Well, is it the dps meter to blame, or is it people lying about their experience?

So. A possibility to not show your dps? Sure, ok. But what do you think will happen?These same groups that are all about dps meters will kick you on sight if you don't have dps meter, and since there's nothing on the ToS that prevents them from doing so, you'll come back here complaining about it.

No matter how people should "in theory" work together for the best in life, it's not going to happen with every group.And quite frankly, I'm infinitely more annoyed by people lying about their skill than people being elitist about their group (simply because I don't join their group or leave them as soon as toxicity happens)

@Rhanoa.3960 said:

@Rennie.6750 said:I don't believe they're a good idea for LFG parties, because mixing varying levels of experience and practice helps everyone to improve. Rookies get some practice and veterans can't settle with "good enough". That being said, encouraging this is kind of tricky without either easy content or the inability to kick and disabling text chat. One thing though, ANet certainly didn't evaluate properly the social aspect of implementing raids that way. It really splits the community, creates hatred and resentment on both sides of the spectrum when they happen to meet by accident and learn who's on which side, and this isn't good at all. It creates bad feelings related the game, and that's the worst thing that can happen to entertainment. If you don't believe in these bad feelings, read these threads again. I certainly don't have magical and universal solution to this, but the devs do need to consider this as a major problem for the long-term health of the community.

I purposely join story dungeons knowing there are new players who may have not experienced the game like I have. Who may even get ignored all because someone believes they cannot carry their weight.

As a community in GW2 are we not suppose to help each other out?You are DOWNED do I just ignore you? It's not exactly how ANET designed the game.Throw more tools (Player made) to measure people by, you get more of the same folks alienating players. That's far from being a helpful or being a community in this game.

I do join dungeons, and i dont mind "bad" players, but "helping each other" doesn't mean having people sneak in into groups that want things to be done fast. It is as much your right to want to get into raids and learn as it is for experienced players to expect fellow experienced players.I prefer by far having someone be honest about what they know/don't know than finding out an hour later why we were not making any progress.

[Evolute.6239]

@Javelin.7960 said:

@Evolute.6239 said:

@Javelin.7960 said:

@Evolute.6239 said:I'm not sure how someone can view a DPS meter in its current form as a negative thing. GW2 has such a simplistic party join and LFG system that you can both create your own groups and block/ignore anyone who is rude or you feel imposes on how you want to play the game.

To claim "I want a choice" is flawed, because you have a choice. Your choice is to make your own group and not care, or join groups that don't care.

Hiding damage numbers serves virtually no purpose, especially in content such as high end fractals and raids, in which DPS (

shockingly

) matters. If you're AFK auto attacking, it's immediately obvious. If you're hard carrying a group, it's immediately obvious. And these things may be good or bad (maybe it's a casual initate fractal that dies regardless and you want to look around the scenery or something) but it can matter.

This is not a single player RPG, it requires co-op grouping and generally requires people to carry their own weight in order to be successful. It's inconsiderate and disrespectful to expect others to carry someones weight. Not everyone has hours to spend playing this game, especially so wiping to things because people are flat out not playing their classes properly. It's not like the tools are not readily available, things like qT or Snowcrows exist and there are plenty of YouTube and other content creators who post everything you would ever need to know about classes.

Hiding tools because you're afraid or feel it will "intrude on privacy" is such bologna. Trying to link it to suicide because it can "cause bullying which is cyber bullying which people have killed themselves over" is downright offensive. It's like trying to claim people not liking Charr's should be bannable because it's racist and people have died because of racism. What kind of mental gymnastic leap is this?

For the record I'm relatively new (3-4 months now) and I've only dipped my toes in raiding (escort/MO/sam) and gone up to T2 fractals and I've literally NEVER seen or been exclu0ded for any DPS reasons. Then again, I also don't try to force myself into "300 LI" or "experienced" groups which

EXPECT

that which is their choice and I completely respect that and hope to one day become comfortable enough to lot myself into that group.

I first started playing GuildWars in June of 2005. I've been through a lot of MMOs, the thing that has always set GW/GW2 apart is the core casual nature of the game. It's built right in to the game; the original was even more casual at it's core, your basic junk tier level 20 sword had effectively the same stats as a weapon someone would grind for months to acquire. GW2 is a bit more tiered that that, but still, the exotic gear you can cobble together from story quests and drops is only marginally worse than Ascended stuff which people spend 150G to craft a full set of, which is identical stat wise to Legendary which people grind for months to obtain.

The game is nicknamed Fashion Wars for a reason.

What I'm getting at is, GuildWars2 isn't other MMOs. The idea of a DPS meter doesn't sit well with some of the people who play this game, in a way that doesn't translate to other MMOs. I play GuildWars

because

of it's casual nature, not in spite of it. I didn't flee a failing WoW to come here, I've been here all along. I just hope ANet understands better than any of us where there playerbase is on this issue.

Yes, but it's not like DPS meters infringe on anything related to casualness. For the record, let's not relate "casual" to "bad", a lot of people do this. Spamming 1 on a mob compared to doing a proper DPS roation doesn't make one hardcore or casual, and neither does having or caring about DPS numbers. That's besides the argument and should have no relevance to DPS meters. A lot of "hardcore" people can be absolutely horrid at playing their characters and just play a lot of hours, and someone can be the best player ever and play 30 minutes.

Any and all content can be done doing pretty darn awful damage numbers in this game. Most content

can

virtually be done by random button mashing. In which case is no where near WoW or whatever.

One can make arguments that the addition of DPS meters add eliteism to games. Okay, that is a discussion point I guess, not that I agree with that because people will always find something best. Even without DPS meters people still kicked bearbow rangers on release in dungeons, yes? What would you do to rectify that? Because it's virtually the same argument that's being made. People want to kill things efficiently and succesfully and to know nobody is wasting their time by playing things ineffectively because of pure laziness (lets face it, that's what it is, unless you have a literal physical disability that impairs your gaming).

Making it a privacy argument is just silly. Your numbers mean effectively nothing in anything but T4 or Raid content and if anyone happens TO bring up numbers in a kitten way you can and should block them. If you remove DPS meters you're just hurting the community at large, and if you remove your own DPS you're basically just admitting you don't care about trying your best which will make the elitism worse. I know I wouldn't group with these people in most circumstances unless I wanted to be helpful to new players.

We've been over all of this in the thread already, so I'm going to take the opportunity to step away at this point. I'll just say this: Your perception of what infringes on casualness isn't a

fact

, it's an

opinion

. Not everyone agrees with your opinion.

Very dismissive of the argument as a whole. It's not an opinion to say casual =/= bad. A casual plays things casually. There is no deeper meaning to the word.

To say that's an opinion is like saying the sky is blue is an opinion.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

The title (and thus hopefully the subject) of the thread is the ANet policy toward DPS meters. Specifically, the OP wants what amounts to a block function for players who do not want their damage to be estimated by the meter software. The OP would, I assume, want ANet to remove their approval from any meter that fails to provide such an option. Assume for discussion that ANet were to go for this idea, and communicates to the makers of the approved meter that such an option must be included for the meter to continue to be allowed. Let's further assume that the maker agrees.

How does the third party software developer get the block option to people who want it? Must these players download the meter software to get the block option? Alternately, would the third party developer choose to make a second piece of software whose only function is to block the first? Assuming that either option would be feasible, people who want to opt out would have to have software on their computer made by a developer that the OP does not, by his own admission, trust to not be reading other information on his account.

The only other option I can see would be for ANet to develop their own meter, using existing combat information. I assume that they would only do so in response to this thread if they could also provide the block feature the OP wants. The problem with this option is that ANet may not want to use developer resources to make a meter when a third party option acceptable to them already exists. In the 12+ years I've played ANet games, the studio has always had a penchant for relying on third parties to provide features that players might want. Given ANet's penchant for liking player-developed solutions, I believe they also expect players wanting to restrict others' ability to estimate their damage to avoid playing with people who use meters. Anyone who, like the OP, is suspicious that randoms join their group and "spy" on them has the option of joining or forming a guild or developing a friend's list of the like-minded. While forming groups or guilds is not convenient, which is more important, convenience or as much privatization of one's damage as the game allows?

So, should ANet, in this case, give the OP (and however many others want the same thing) freedom from damage estimation based on what's shown on screen? I do not care about meters one way or the other. The existence of the meter has not changed my in-game experience one iota. My belief, though, is that ANet is going to act (or not act in this case) based on the fact that a particular player's damage is not proprietary information. It belongs to ANet, not the player.

[Evolute.6239]

It's like making the argument that you should be able to hide your name and arenanet ID from everyone because it's your personal information. This is a bloody MMORPG, not a single player game. You play with others! Shockingly when your performance influences others, others care about it!

[Panda.1967]

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Panda.1967 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:I want to stress out my issue with DPS meters. I am not in peace with the fact that after 4 years ArenaNet decide to walk away from their principles and allowed players to use this tool. I understand that it's easier to allow certain tool and cooperate with the dev to make it compliant to game rules instead of chasing players using it in the background.

However,

allowing this tool has come with certain oversight

that I hope ArenaNet is going to consider and fix soon.

Since the only allowed DPS meter at this point is ArcDPS I'm going to refer to it and its creator - deltaconnected - in this thread.

I accept that players have different goals

and big succesful game like Guild Wars 2 should provide content and tools for different groups of players.

Therefore I agree that DPS meter has its uses and there are people who benefit from using it

and I am not going to advocate for 100% deletion of this tool.

Yet there is one thing I have issue with. I do not understand how is it possible that every player using this tool is 100% allowed to monitor my performance in game without my consent. I am not using this tool. So why is it possible for random people watch my DPS numbers?

I find this a big issue in terms of player privacy in game.

ArenaNet does not allow gear inspections or naming and shaming exactly because of respect for players' privacy. After changing forums engine they even deleted tools like "thumbs down" under our posts to not spread unnecessary negativity amongst the community.

This is why I don't understand why they allowed people to spy on other players' performance (numbers, dps, whatever you call it) without our consent.

If the tool has to exist in the game,

make it clear that it is by default only to monitor numbers of a player using it unless other players in group agree to share their numbers.

I think the DPS meters policy needs to be revied. This tool can cause unnecessary toxicity in groups, especially because me, as a player, have no power to control who's spying on me in game. I have no option to block other players watching me, I have no option to see who's using this tool and who isn't. And this is why I believe the only fair solution is to make deltaconnected change how ArcDPS works.

It should be limited to personal DPS only unless other players agree to share their numbers from the tool

.

Every party/squad leader has every right to require this tool in group content (since it's allowed) and every other player should be allowed to not agree to other players spying on their numbers.

I think this is very reasonable request that gives players back power over their accounts and their privacy that is currently violated by usage of ArcDPS.

---

EDIT: I am well aware I'm going to be accused of poor performance myself, taking revenge for being kicked etc. Well, that's not my story, sorry to disappoint. This tool is used outside of raids and even in raids, there is no requirement of doing top dps for anyone.

Every group has every right to request me to use the meter and share dps with them. But it should be my decision to join, not expect by default that every player in the game may or may not use this tool and judge me.

---

EDIT2: BGDM worked like this. People couldn't see your numbers unless you joined their server and share your numbers. It was okay then and this whole sub was fixated about this tool. Why is it bad now?

---

EDIT3: This repost has been made to respect forums rules.

Joining someone else’s group is you consenting to Combat Meters, Anet has stated this, they have also stated that Combat information is not private information, so no players privacy is infringed upon, and consent is given at time of joining someone else’s group, all things covered by Anets statements on Combat meters.

If you don’t like Combat Meters only start your own groups, and kick anyone that uses them for toxic reasons, pretty simple concept.

But if I create my own group I have no power to know who uses this tool. People can ignore my LFG, join MY group and kick me. My request is to avoid such situation, so I can actually do what you suggest - make my group and control the fact that others can't spy on me without my consent. Currently random person using this tool has an advantage over me using vanilla game client without hacks. This is ridiculous situation.

Again Post your group say no Combat Meters in the LFG and then when someone tries to be a toxic kitten using Combat Meter vote to kick them and report them, because I doubt there will be many people using Combat Meters to join your LFG post stating no Combat Meters, since those groups tend to attract others they wouldn’t want to group with, and they probably won’t just vote to kick you without raging in /p as the basis of your complaint stands upon so most times the 3 other people in your group will more than likely be of your mindset of no Combat Meters and won’t vote to kick you, since it takes 4 others to kick someone.

But this is only working after "damage" is done (pun intended), it's not preventing such situations. Meanwhile, if my request is to be applied it works for both sides. You can request to play with dps meter and share with everyone beforehand so if anyone joins and refuses to share you can kick him before the fight saving your time watching their poor dps.

Also because there seems to be a lack of understanding here, Combat Data is in no way private or personal data/information especially in any group setting.

And this is what I'm asking for to be changed in the policy.

I gave you the perfect answer to handle the situation if it would ever arise, legitimately no damage would be done or very little Anet provided you every tool to combat those toxic players from LFG descriptions to Block/report /kick from Party.

Again in Group settings that Combat data is already not Private or personal since it is a combination of the group as a whole, you have no ownership of it and by aren’t spyin in you, again you are in no way entitled to other players time if you join their group and are underperforming, and if you start your own group with a clear cut LFG description and someone tries to be a toxic kitten then kick block and report them, and remember you can’t be kicked from group without majority of players voting to kick you, so if your LFG post for your group was clear enough you will mostly be grouped with like minded people to you.

One last time since it seems to have to be repeated multiple times, consent is given upon Group join, all combat data is not owned or private in any group setting since it is gatherers from every player in group through buffs/debuffs and everything in between.No policy needs to be changed since every tool you require to correct the situation is available already.

You don't seem to be grasping the problem here.

The issue is that people who want to be DPS meter jockies join casual groups and disrupt their runs with their DPS meter spam and harassment. And yes, there are people who don't use DPS meters who join hardcore runs and disrupt their enjoyment as well. This is an issue on both ends. The proposed solution is actually a win-win for both sides.

If DPS meters only show data for others who have the meter,

PERIOD

, then yes there will be instances of people getting kicked for not having a DPS meter. But those instances will be fewer and farther between than the current problems with them. When they only show data for those who use them, then groups that don't want them can have anyone join without fear of being harassed over DPS by some "tryhard" who thought it would be amusing to join their group, since the guy with the DPS meter will only see his own date. The groups that want to use DPS meters can ask the person who doesn't have one to get one or leave, and they won't have to worry about having some "filthy casual" joined their group and isn't pulling their weight. They will know at the start that "this player doesn't have a DPS meter" and they can take action before their run even starts.

The ultimate end result, BOTH groups spend less time repeating content, BOTH groups spend less time looking for a replacement party member. BOTH groups are happy.

Again post clear LFG since most DPS jockeys as you put it won’t join groups that advertise no Dps Meters, and if they do and try to be a kitten then the party members kick those players being a kitten with Combat Meters it’s a extremely simple concept, all the tools are available.

Again the Policy on Meters is known, toxic behavior can be reported etc.

One more time Toxic players will join groups to be toxic no matter what, Meters or not, history has proven this and so have the threads on players merging squads to disrupt others groups with no Meters involved, funny how that works.

And you still don’t don’t grasp the concept hat solutions are already in game, and purport this to be a much bigger issue than it is.

Again, you are completely missing the issue.

The people who are causing a problem for BOTH sides of the issue, DO NOT CARE WHAT LFG SAYS. Underperforming players who crash expert runs, don't read the LFG, they see a group they join. People who harass casual runs with DPS data, don't care what LFG says, in fact they INTENTIONALLY join the casual runs to harass them.

Restricting DPS meters to personal data and shared data from others with meters, reduces the issue for both groups. Most casuals who join an expert run without reading the LFG will be spotted and kicked due to lack of meter, and trolls crashing casual runs with DPS meter harassment won't have data on the group most of the time.

Why is it that the only ones who are willing to make a compromise on this whole issue of DPS meters are those of us who are against them?

[Coulter.2315]

You're engaging in a social activity when you group with people, so asking that your privacy is respected when you're in a group activity and your performance may be crucial is not a valid argument to me.

[Deihnyx.6318]

Restricting DPS meters to personal data and shared data from others with meters, reduces the issue for both groups. Most casuals who join an expert run without reading the LFG will be spotted and kicked due to lack of meter, and trolls crashing casual runs with DPS meter harassment won't have data on the group most of the time.Players already get kicked for not showing killing proof, or lying about it.Trolls joining noob groups to troll them (although I'm still waiting to see actual proof that it happens consistently) will still join, and you won't know if they have their dps meter activated. That won't prevent them from trolling the group at all.

The problem is not that giving an option to deactivate meter is inherently bad, it's that it won't stop toxic behaviors (from both sides) and it won't stop elitism. These concepts didn't appear with dps meters, they were a thing before.

Let's also not forget that... just like PVP, elitist/toxic people are not exactly always... honest. Just like PvP, more often than not they are actually responsible for the failure of their group. Back to when only the first wing was out, there was quite a few of these people who would always blame others. DPS meters can also fight that.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@Panda.1967 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Panda.1967 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:I want to stress out my issue with DPS meters. I am not in peace with the fact that after 4 years ArenaNet decide to walk away from their principles and allowed players to use this tool. I understand that it's easier to allow certain tool and cooperate with the dev to make it compliant to game rules instead of chasing players using it in the background.

However,

allowing this tool has come with certain oversight

that I hope ArenaNet is going to consider and fix soon.

Since the only allowed DPS meter at this point is ArcDPS I'm going to refer to it and its creator - deltaconnected - in this thread.

I accept that players have different goals

and big succesful game like Guild Wars 2 should provide content and tools for different groups of players.

Therefore I agree that DPS meter has its uses and there are people who benefit from using it

and I am not going to advocate for 100% deletion of this tool.

Yet there is one thing I have issue with. I do not understand how is it possible that every player using this tool is 100% allowed to monitor my performance in game without my consent. I am not using this tool. So why is it possible for random people watch my DPS numbers?

I find this a big issue in terms of player privacy in game.

ArenaNet does not allow gear inspections or naming and shaming exactly because of respect for players' privacy. After changing forums engine they even deleted tools like "thumbs down" under our posts to not spread unnecessary negativity amongst the community.

This is why I don't understand why they allowed people to spy on other players' performance (numbers, dps, whatever you call it) without our consent.

If the tool has to exist in the game,

make it clear that it is by default only to monitor numbers of a player using it unless other players in group agree to share their numbers.

I think the DPS meters policy needs to be revied. This tool can cause unnecessary toxicity in groups, especially because me, as a player, have no power to control who's spying on me in game. I have no option to block other players watching me, I have no option to see who's using this tool and who isn't. And this is why I believe the only fair solution is to make deltaconnected change how ArcDPS works.

It should be limited to personal DPS only unless other players agree to share their numbers from the tool

.

Every party/squad leader has every right to require this tool in group content (since it's allowed) and every other player should be allowed to not agree to other players spying on their numbers.

I think this is very reasonable request that gives players back power over their accounts and their privacy that is currently violated by usage of ArcDPS.

---

EDIT: I am well aware I'm going to be accused of poor performance myself, taking revenge for being kicked etc. Well, that's not my story, sorry to disappoint. This tool is used outside of raids and even in raids, there is no requirement of doing top dps for anyone.

Every group has every right to request me to use the meter and share dps with them. But it should be my decision to join, not expect by default that every player in the game may or may not use this tool and judge me.

---

EDIT2: BGDM worked like this. People couldn't see your numbers unless you joined their server and share your numbers. It was okay then and this whole sub was fixated about this tool. Why is it bad now?

---

EDIT3: This repost has been made to respect forums rules.

Joining someone else’s group is you consenting to Combat Meters, Anet has stated this, they have also stated that Combat information is not private information, so no players privacy is infringed upon, and consent is given at time of joining someone else’s group, all things covered by Anets statements on Combat meters.

If you don’t like Combat Meters only start your own groups, and kick anyone that uses them for toxic reasons, pretty simple concept.

But if I create my own group I have no power to know who uses this tool. People can ignore my LFG, join MY group and kick me. My request is to avoid such situation, so I can actually do what you suggest - make my group and control the fact that others can't spy on me without my consent. Currently random person using this tool has an advantage over me using vanilla game client without hacks. This is ridiculous situation.

Again Post your group say no Combat Meters in the LFG and then when someone tries to be a toxic kitten using Combat Meter vote to kick them and report them, because I doubt there will be many people using Combat Meters to join your LFG post stating no Combat Meters, since those groups tend to attract others they wouldn’t want to group with, and they probably won’t just vote to kick you without raging in /p as the basis of your complaint stands upon so most times the 3 other people in your group will more than likely be of your mindset of no Combat Meters and won’t vote to kick you, since it takes 4 others to kick someone.

But this is only working after "damage" is done (pun intended), it's not preventing such situations. Meanwhile, if my request is to be applied it works for both sides. You can request to play with dps meter and share with everyone beforehand so if anyone joins and refuses to share you can kick him before the fight saving your time watching their poor dps.

Also because there seems to be a lack of understanding here, Combat Data is in no way private or personal data/information especially in any group setting.

And this is what I'm asking for to be changed in the policy.

I gave you the perfect answer to handle the situation if it would ever arise, legitimately no damage would be done or very little Anet provided you every tool to combat those toxic players from LFG descriptions to Block/report /kick from Party.

Again in Group settings that Combat data is already not Private or personal since it is a combination of the group as a whole, you have no ownership of it and by aren’t spyin in you, again you are in no way entitled to other players time if you join their group and are underperforming, and if you start your own group with a clear cut LFG description and someone tries to be a toxic kitten then kick block and report them, and remember you can’t be kicked from group without majority of players voting to kick you, so if your LFG post for your group was clear enough you will mostly be grouped with like minded people to you.

One last time since it seems to have to be repeated multiple times, consent is given upon Group join, all combat data is not owned or private in any group setting since it is gatherers from every player in group through buffs/debuffs and everything in between.No policy needs to be changed since every tool you require to correct the situation is available already.

You don't seem to be grasping the problem here.

The issue is that people who want to be DPS meter jockies join casual groups and disrupt their runs with their DPS meter spam and harassment. And yes, there are people who don't use DPS meters who join hardcore runs and disrupt their enjoyment as well. This is an issue on both ends. The proposed solution is actually a win-win for both sides.

If DPS meters only show data for others who have the meter,

PERIOD

, then yes there will be instances of people getting kicked for not having a DPS meter. But those instances will be fewer and farther between than the current problems with them. When they only show data for those who use them, then groups that don't want them can have anyone join without fear of being harassed over DPS by some "tryhard" who thought it would be amusing to join their group, since the guy with the DPS meter will only see his own date. The groups that want to use DPS meters can ask the person who doesn't have one to get one or leave, and they won't have to worry about having some "filthy casual" joined their group and isn't pulling their weight. They will know at the start that "this player doesn't have a DPS meter" and they can take action before their run even starts.

The ultimate end result, BOTH groups spend less time repeating content, BOTH groups spend less time looking for a replacement party member. BOTH groups are happy.

Again post clear LFG since most DPS jockeys as you put it won’t join groups that advertise no Dps Meters, and if they do and try to be a kitten then the party members kick those players being a kitten with Combat Meters it’s a extremely simple concept, all the tools are available.

Again the Policy on Meters is known, toxic behavior can be reported etc.

One more time Toxic players will join groups to be toxic no matter what, Meters or not, history has proven this and so have the threads on players merging squads to disrupt others groups with no Meters involved, funny how that works.

And you still don’t don’t grasp the concept hat solutions are already in game, and purport this to be a much bigger issue than it is.

Again, you are completely missing the issue.

The people who are causing a problem for BOTH sides of the issue,

DO NOT CARE WHAT LFG SAYS

. Underperforming players who crash expert runs, don't read the LFG, they see a group they join. People who harass casual runs with DPS data, don't care what LFG says, in fact they INTENTIONALLY join the casual runs to harass them.

Restricting DPS meters to personal data and shared data from others with meters, reduces the issue for both groups. Most casuals who join an expert run without reading the LFG will be spotted and kicked due to lack of meter, and trolls crashing casual runs with DPS meter harassment won't have data on the group most of the time.

Why is it that the only ones who are willing to make a compromise on this whole issue of DPS meters are those of us who are against them?

There is no Personal Data being read, Combat Data is group owned. And I highly doubt the number of players that would in your extremely hypothetical situation join the no Meter groups to grief players. Which makes this a non issue in the grand scheme of things.

Again every single tool exists to stop the Op and others from having to deal with griefers.

So again come up with actual reasons or proof on how many people grief No Meter LFGs I would love to see that since you also claim that Toxicity increased so much and so far have yet to prove that either.

Again it’s a non issue since all the tools exist already.

And Anet stated they won’t support Meters in any form. Soo...

[AliamRationem.5172]

I think it would be best if ANet developed their own DPS meter. Allow players to hide the UI element and hide their own performance from other players.

You aren't going to stop players from using whatever tools and metrics they care to invent in order to increase their probability of success. So just give players the tools to do so and let them decide how they want to participate.

[TexZero.7910]

@Javelin.7960 said:

@TexZero.7910 said:

@Javelin.7960 said:I don't think anyone in this thread is a senior developer or producer for this game. None of us are making resource allocation decisions, so feel free to 'dream big'. As a concept, absent any resource constraints, would you have a problem with a programmatic solution that addressed the concern and allowed individual accounts to disable DPS metering for their toons, provided their status in that regard was publicly provided prior to joining a group/squad/whatever?

I just don't see why anyone would have a problem with that, rationales used to justify it notwithstanding.

Why ?

If you absolutely do not want DPS meters, don't install one and don't join groups that use them. It's the much simpler approach and requires significantly less overhead.Sorry if you don't like my liberal nature when it comes to programming but there's never been a need to add more checks when a human system already exist.

I asked a simple question, one I've asked repeatedly and apparently has people so terrified they'll say about anything to avoid answering it. It's a conceptual question, not a resource question, not a question of practicality. The current status of things isn't relevant to it, it's about of how things could be, not how things are today.

I get it though, if I were some of you I'd not want to admit I'm opposed to my fellow players having a choice that wouldn't impact me negatively, it's not the sort of opinion people want to broadcast about themselves.

No, i don't think you do get it.

You have choices, but instead of using them. I.E Choosing not to interact with people who use DPS meters as a whole, you'd rather big brother design a "choice" that already exist for you.

Why ?What makes you think this "Choice" is required to be built in when the ecosystem it exist in is already opt in to begin with ?

I'd love a sincere answer from you since you, without the backhanded insults this time if possible.

[Rennie.6750]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:I think it would be best if ANet developed their own DPS meter. Allow players to hide the UI element and hide their own performance from other players.

You aren't going to stop players from using whatever tools and metrics they care to invent in order to increase their probability of success. So just give players the tools to do so and let them decide how they want to participate.

That wouldn't solve anything. Sharing stats would be required by group makers. If you want to achieve that, which I believe is mixing rookies and vets in pugs, you need to be unable to share damage output or else it's wasted dev time. They would also have to go after every single way of selecting players.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@Javelin.7960 said:

I guess I don't understand why people have an issue with the OPs position. He's not arguing for DPS meters to be illegal, just that each player have an opt-in/out choice. A publicly visible choice. Don't want players who opt-out of DPS meters in your group? Don't invite them.

What is wrong with choice? It sounds like people just want to impose their idea of how the game should function on everyone else, when there are better options possible.

Because that's the piece that's puzzling to me, why does the pro-meter crowd seem so hell-bent on making everyone else play the game their way?

I'm neither pro-DPS meter nor anti. (If anything, I lean on the side of "the game doesn't really need it; there are plenty of ways to tell if you're doing your rotation well.") I always do the same thing in these threads: ask people to offer up solid arguments rather than resorting to hyperbole or examples of something that could be explained without DPS meters.

If your goal is to rant, great; you've succeeded in expressing your discontent with the status quo. If you're preaching to the converted, also great; they'll like the analogy just fine. On the other hand, if your goal is to convince others who are like me, neither pro nor con, trying to consider the pros and cons, well, I wonder why you aren't interested in my reaction. I'm not convinced by the argument that a few people get in other people's face posting DPS numbers — I dealt with exactly the same mindset of folks who believed in "dungeon all zerk or go home" and would get upset if their run took an extra minute. Jerks are going to be jerks.

The pro-DPS argument offers specific benefits to both high-performing and less-skilled players who use it properly. If you want to convince anyone, include folks on the fence about it or those trying to see things from multiple angles, it's important to offer arguments that are specific to DPS meters, and don't depend on people who are going to be rude regardless of circumstance.

tl;dr I'm not even asking you to change your mind about your views on DPS meters. I'm offering you my opinion about your choice of rhetorical devices: it's turning off folks like myself who might be convinced to your position a stronger example or argument.

Honestly I think you don't like my rhetoric because it's inconvenient to you, not because it's turning anyone off. It's a perfectly valid comparison, and serves to illustrate a simple point: The tools people use when they behave badly matter. A heckler screaming at a baseball game is often a tolerated annoyance, if that same person sneaks an electric megaphone in, they're getting kicked out of the ballpark and possibly banned for life. They were irritating before, add technology and they are a seriously disruptive nuisance. DPS meters enable jerks to be more disruptive in the same way.

Honestly? You're wrong about how I feel; it's not inconvenient to me at all, as I don't use DPS meters typically. I'm not sure why you've assumed that (a) I am a DPS meter user, (b) that I am pro DPS meters, or © that should even matter in crafting an effective argument to change the status quo. In theory, I'm likely to be more accepting of further restrictions on meters than ANet, so if your argument isn't reaching me, it seems unlikely that it will get them to make different choices in the near future.

I'm really sorry that my own rhetoric has been so poor that I've given you the wrong impression and worse, that it seems to have caused you to dig in your heels even more.

tl;dr I'm not a DPS meter user, I try to keep an open mind about what's good for the game, and you haven't convinced me that the status quo needs to change. It's up to you to decide if I was part of your intended audience.

[Diak Atoli.2085]

Reading through this thread, I come to the impression at the core of this topic is a matter of privacy. That it is about a fundamental difference in what people consider to be private.

Why?

Why is this data considered private? Why is it considered public? Where is that line drawn?

Also, I would appreciate it if someone, preferably it's creator, would give a technical explanation as to how ARCdps measures others' DPS.

Edit: I believe more choices are never a bad thing. So I ask: What would be the detriment to having an additional LFG filter for DPS meters?

I think it would require an official DPS meter be added into the game. I believe that DPS meter to likely be more accurate and more stable than a third-party tool.

[Panda.1967]

To address the handful of arguments against giving us a choice.

"You can just post no-meters in LFG"We can, yes, but there is the problem of people who simply don't read the LFG and just click join on the first one in the list, and trolls/griefers who see such listing as an open invitation. We have to deal with such people, often resulting in searching for a replacement party member mid run or looking for an entirely new group for future runs.

"adding such an option will just result in kicks for not having a meter."Yes, this will happen, and we're ok with this. This is NOT a problem. If you create a group and want everyone to use a DPS meter, that is your prerogative and you have the right to kick anyone who doesn't want to adhere to your groups rules. If I want to create a group without DPS meters and you join and start spamming your DPS meter, I have every right to kick you.

Pick a new argument, neither of those are going to get you anywhere. We're going to be going in endless circles if you keep up with those old arguments.

Now to outline exactly why DPS meters are so much more of an issue to people here than on other MMOs.

In other MMOs classes have defined roles, Tanks and Healers are accepted to not need to deal high damage. People don't question your DPS when you're not on a DPS class in those games. Here however, the game was designed to not have roles and not need roles, but at the same time was designed to allow for builds that fit into defined roles. Any class can play as a healer, tank, CC, or DPS. If I build for anything other than DPS, then my DPS is obviously going to be low. DPS meters have fueled the mentality of "DPS or bust", very few classes are given a break by the DPS meter community when it comes to this. If I'm on my elementalist I'm expected to be playing as a glass cannon with massive DPS, an expectation that I will not live up to on my elementalist, I run a support build. A DPS meter won't tell anyone that though. They will see that I'm an elementalist with Tempest elite spec and assume "Fresh Air DPS who's not even coming close to the 30k DPS benchmark, time to kick". The single focus "DPS or bust" outlook of a lot of the community is a problem that is fueled and exacerbated by DPS meters.

[Trayvon.7362]

Even if this were to happen, it would only increase your chances of being kicked in difficult group content. Group wipes on the boss due to enrage and doesn't see you on the meters? It is common sense to assume that YOU are the problem.

[Haishao.6851]

The issue is not DPS meter but group mechanics and certain people behavior.With or without DPS meters, nerds will go crash dorks' groups and vice versa.

[Yamazuki.6073]

A couple simple points.

-You can label your group as "casual". Those who care for efficiency don't join groups labeled as casual. If you look at lfg often enough, for fractals as an example, you will notice the label "casual" being used already, it's to note the run is not try hard. If someone comes in and trolls, remove them and report if it is excessive, then move on.

-You can not use privacy as an argument when looking for group systems are public spaces, think of going to a park and playing [insert sport] with who ever is there, would you throw a fit because they judged your performance? Would you win a case in court for "privacy violations" because randoms judged your ability to play the sport? If you do not ever want to be judged randomly you have the option of playing privately, either through soloing or by playing with friends/guilds exclusively.

The solution to your problem already exists in more than one way, it's just a matter of you putting in minimal effort, rather than demanding the developers do it for you. If you can't be bothered to put effort into your own solutions, why should someone else do so?