Holosmith: It only does EVERYTHING

[Shiyo.3578]

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:Forgemode, sword, and holo trait line are more than enough. No buffs needed, sorry.

I am just glad that this suggestion will never get taken seriously.Engineer, including the holosmith elite spec, is way too dependant on the toolbelt for this to ever be an option.

Sorry, but this is definitely never going to happen.

Chrono was way too dependant on distortion to, too. Mirage is also way too dependant on mirage cloak. Sorry that you think your class gets special treatment, but it shouldn't.

Holosmith is currently the best class and destroying PvP. It needed to be hard nerfed months ago.

[Kodama.6453]

@Shiyo.3578 said:Chrono was way too dependant on distortion to, too. Mirage is also way too dependant on mirage cloak. Sorry that you think your class gets special treatment, but it shouldn't.

Holosmith is currently the best class and destroying PvP. It needed to be hard nerfed months ago.

All I can say is that you should probably go play some engineer to really get a feeling for how badly you are dependant on it.Taking toolbelt away from holosmith absolutely kills the elite spec in every game mode, including PvE. Something that is not true for chrono or mirage, since they are still able to perform well in PvE and even still had top performance there.

After such a change, holo would be worth as much as a veteran mob.Your hate for the engineer class just makes you blind in this case here.

[mortrialus.3062]

Like I said, Holo should have a -20-33% healing penalty to force it into a high risk high reward playstyle.

Not a fan of just removing all of the toolbelt skills, it just doesn't create the sort of deliberate asymmetry good balance works to implement.

[Shiyo.3578]

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:Chrono was way too dependant on distortion to, too. Mirage is also way too dependant on mirage cloak. Sorry that you think your class gets special treatment, but it shouldn't.

Holosmith is currently the best class and destroying PvP. It needed to be hard nerfed months ago.

All I can say is that you should probably go play some engineer to really get a feeling for

how

badly you are dependant on it.Taking toolbelt away from holosmith absolutely kills the elite spec in every game mode, including PvE. Something that is not true for chrono or mirage, since they are still able to perform well in PvE and even still had top performance there.

After such a change, holo would be worth as much as a veteran mob.Your hate for the engineer class just makes you blind in this case here.

Mirage doesn't lose a dodge in PvE and distortion isn't needed in PvE either...that's a very engineer player comparison.

@mortrialus.3062 said:Like I said, Holo should have a -20-33% healing penalty to force it into a high risk high reward playstyle.

Not a fan of just removing all of the toolbelt skills, it just doesn't create the sort of deliberate asymmetry good balance works to implement.

How do you explain a healing penalty on an elite spec that gets free healing? lol

[mortrialus.3062]

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:Chrono was way too dependant on distortion to, too. Mirage is also way too dependant on mirage cloak. Sorry that you think your class gets special treatment, but it shouldn't.

Holosmith is currently the best class and destroying PvP. It needed to be hard nerfed months ago.

All I can say is that you should probably go play some engineer to really get a feeling for

how

badly you are dependant on it.Taking toolbelt away from holosmith absolutely kills the elite spec in every game mode, including PvE. Something that is not true for chrono or mirage, since they are still able to perform well in PvE and even still had top performance there.

After such a change, holo would be worth as much as a veteran mob.Your hate for the engineer class just makes you blind in this case here.

Mirage doesn't lose a dodge in PvE and distortion isn't needed in PvE either...that's a very engineer player comparison.

@mortrialus.3062 said:Like I said, Holo should have a -20-33% healing penalty to force it into a high risk high reward playstyle.

Not a fan of just removing all of the toolbelt skills, it just doesn't create the sort of deliberate asymmetry good balance works to implement.

How do you explain a healing penalty on an elite spec that gets free healing? lol

Literally slap it on a minor trait like Fatal Frenzy and Impact Savant.

[Kodama.6453]

@Shiyo.3578 said:Mirage doesn't lose a dodge in PvE and distortion isn't needed in PvE either...that's a very engineer player comparison.

This is exactly my point.

A fundamental mechanical change like removing all toolbelt skills won't become PvP only, they try to keep the mechanics of specs the same across the game modes and just change numbers (cooldowns, damage, healing, etc).And yes, even endurance is just a number.

Having access to toolbelt skills or not is not just a number. It is a mechanical change and if they would do that, they would do it for all game modes.

And like you said: distortion is not needed in PvE. Toolbelt on the other hand is needed in PvE, heavily!Toolbelt has a good punch of our dps. Toolbelt holds stunbreaks for the engineer. The toolbelt is even a healing skill replacement in the case of the med kit.

That's exactly what I am talking about. The changes done to chrono and mirage were not as impactful as taking away toolbelt skills from holosmith. You might not be aware of it, but that's how it is and I am sure Anet is also very well aware of this fact, hence why this change is ruled out.

[UNOwen.7132]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:Its odd that you talk about Holosmiths utilities as if theyre incredibly amazing when the current meta holosmith doesnt run a

single

holosmith utility. Theyre worse than core utilities. So already we can cut more than half of your "what Holosmith provides" bullet points. The truth is that people

severely

overestimate Holosmith. Yes, it provides more damage than base Engineer thanks to enhanced heat capacity unit, and yes, you get a free mediocre kit in the form of photon forge. But that is, simply put, not that much.

As for your suggestion, lets reword it. "Lets make Holosmith unplayable in PvP". Its only slightly ahead of core engineer, so a nerf this massive, well lets just say it chronos the spec. It also is just poorly thought out. The problem with Holo right now isnt Holo itself. Its that as a result of the catastrophic february 25 patch, damage is far too low. Holosmith is not actually very tanky in a vacuum. But damage is so low even a glass cannon like Holosmith is unkillable, despite actually providing close to no sustain or defense at all (seriously, its got Heat Therapy, which is an average 50-100 healing per second. Thats just ... not much).

I think the truth lies somewhere between your view and the OP's.

You're 100% correct in saying Holosmith utilities are not used at all atm, pure sidegrade/downgrade to core utilites, no idea what OP is talking about there with his 3 bullet points on how good Holo utilities are - OP then goes on to say that Holosmith gains CC through traits, no idea how he justifies talking straight 25% nonsense in his post, I understand how you think he's overestimating Holosmith with some overt hyperbole, cause he is.

However, Holosmith is pretty far ahead of Core Engineer. It's got way more mobility, sustain, and might stacks. When it comes to Heat Therapy, this trait is a beast. When staying out of Forge it's healing 195 per second between 3-8 seconds, then 390 per second when venting maximum heat. It's very noticeable sustain compared to core.

The mobility Holo gets from master trait & photon Forge is an amazing escape tool. Between super speed escape and Heat Therapy, you basically slap on noticeable sustain and disengage to Core Engi and call it a day.

Only thing about Holo that should be potentially changed is mobility and sustain, ideally take a portion of that sustain and pump it into kits. Multi-kit builds should be the focus of next Engi re-work for sure.

Most of the Exceeds have seen plenty of use historically, even if it's currently meta to run Grenade Kit, Elixir U and Elixir S. Photon Wall has seen plenty of historic use, Spectrum Shield and Hard Light Arena have seen plenty of use. It's not like we're talking about Distracting Daggers, Impairing Daggers or Crystal Sands that are just 100% unused in PvP. My point is that not only does Holosmith enhance the engineer's capacity for damage and mobility beyond what core is capable of, but also sustain and defense in ways the spec simply shouldn't be doing, regardless of whether the Exceeds, which do see use, are currently meta at this exact moment.

Just because something saw use

before

, doesnt mean its still good. Druid saw a lot of use before. Spellbreaker saw a lot of use before. Scrapper saw a lot of use before. Theyre all not good anymore. As are the Exceed skills. They got nerfed, and now theyre just downgrades to core skills.

The point isn't that exceeds should be bad. The point is that exceeds shouldn't be defensively orientated, especially with how they can and have stacked with Core Engineer's existing defenses to make something even more defensive than core engineer on top of more damage, mobility, and healing. And just because something else is currently better doesn't mean the meta won't shift in a way where they see more play. The exceeds are still usable, we aren't talking about Druid Glyphs or Crystal Sands level bad here.

Actually, in some cases we are talking thatb ad here. But anyway, I disagree with your main point entirely. Holo is a melee bruiser. Of course it gets defense-focused utility skills, thats the whole point. You cant expect a melee glass cannon to function well without active defenses.

I never had a problem with, for example, Prime Light Beam. The only change I wanted to see on it before the megabalance was to add self reveal to the holosmith so that they can't blowout people with zero warning from stealth and I'm 100% in favor of adding the damage back to that skill. That's the frame work the exceeds should be operating under; high impact offensive skills with more potent effects at high heat. Not defensive skills that can be layered on top of core engineer's defensive utilities on top of all the damage, mobility, and sustain holosmith provides.

Again, you cant expect a melee spec to be a full glass cannon sidenoder. Imagine if Spellbreaker had no defenses. Engineers base defenses are good for the ranged playstyle engineer usually has, but for melee, not so much.

[Shiyo.3578]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:Its odd that you talk about Holosmiths utilities as if theyre incredibly amazing when the current meta holosmith doesnt run a

single

holosmith utility. Theyre worse than core utilities. So already we can cut more than half of your "what Holosmith provides" bullet points. The truth is that people

severely

overestimate Holosmith. Yes, it provides more damage than base Engineer thanks to enhanced heat capacity unit, and yes, you get a free mediocre kit in the form of photon forge. But that is, simply put, not that much.

As for your suggestion, lets reword it. "Lets make Holosmith unplayable in PvP". Its only slightly ahead of core engineer, so a nerf this massive, well lets just say it chronos the spec. It also is just poorly thought out. The problem with Holo right now isnt Holo itself. Its that as a result of the catastrophic february 25 patch, damage is far too low. Holosmith is not actually very tanky in a vacuum. But damage is so low even a glass cannon like Holosmith is unkillable, despite actually providing close to no sustain or defense at all (seriously, its got Heat Therapy, which is an average 50-100 healing per second. Thats just ... not much).

I think the truth lies somewhere between your view and the OP's.

You're 100% correct in saying Holosmith utilities are not used at all atm, pure sidegrade/downgrade to core utilites, no idea what OP is talking about there with his 3 bullet points on how good Holo utilities are - OP then goes on to say that Holosmith gains CC through traits, no idea how he justifies talking straight 25% nonsense in his post, I understand how you think he's overestimating Holosmith with some overt hyperbole, cause he is.

However, Holosmith is pretty far ahead of Core Engineer. It's got way more mobility, sustain, and might stacks. When it comes to Heat Therapy, this trait is a beast. When staying out of Forge it's healing 195 per second between 3-8 seconds, then 390 per second when venting maximum heat. It's very noticeable sustain compared to core.

The mobility Holo gets from master trait & photon Forge is an amazing escape tool. Between super speed escape and Heat Therapy, you basically slap on noticeable sustain and disengage to Core Engi and call it a day.

Only thing about Holo that should be potentially changed is mobility and sustain, ideally take a portion of that sustain and pump it into kits. Multi-kit builds should be the focus of next Engi re-work for sure.

Most of the Exceeds have seen plenty of use historically, even if it's currently meta to run Grenade Kit, Elixir U and Elixir S. Photon Wall has seen plenty of historic use, Spectrum Shield and Hard Light Arena have seen plenty of use. It's not like we're talking about Distracting Daggers, Impairing Daggers or Crystal Sands that are just 100% unused in PvP. My point is that not only does Holosmith enhance the engineer's capacity for damage and mobility beyond what core is capable of, but also sustain and defense in ways the spec simply shouldn't be doing, regardless of whether the Exceeds, which do see use, are currently meta at this exact moment.

Just because something saw use

before

, doesnt mean its still good. Druid saw a lot of use before. Spellbreaker saw a lot of use before. Scrapper saw a lot of use before. Theyre all not good anymore. As are the Exceed skills. They got nerfed, and now theyre just downgrades to core skills.

The point isn't that exceeds should be bad. The point is that exceeds shouldn't be defensively orientated, especially with how they can and have stacked with Core Engineer's existing defenses to make something even more defensive than core engineer on top of more damage, mobility, and healing. And just because something else is currently better doesn't mean the meta won't shift in a way where they see more play. The exceeds are still usable, we aren't talking about Druid Glyphs or Crystal Sands level bad here.

Actually, in some cases we

are

talking thatb ad here. But anyway, I disagree with your main point entirely. Holo is a melee bruiser. Of course it gets defense-focused utility skills, thats the whole point. You cant expect a melee glass cannon to function well without active defenses.

I never had a problem with, for example, Prime Light Beam. The only change I wanted to see on it before the megabalance was to add self reveal to the holosmith so that they can't blowout people with zero warning from stealth and I'm 100% in favor of adding the damage back to that skill. That's the frame work the exceeds should be operating under; high impact offensive skills with more potent effects at high heat. Not defensive skills that can be layered on top of core engineer's defensive utilities on top of all the damage, mobility, and sustain holosmith provides.

Again, you cant expect a melee spec to be a full glass cannon sidenoder. Imagine if Spellbreaker had no defenses. Engineers base defenses are good for the ranged playstyle engineer usually has, but for melee, not so much.

Holosmith isn't a sidenoder, scrapper is. Holosmith is VERY clearly a glass cannon roamer. Why would a class have two specs that accomplish the exact same role?

[Shiyo.3578]

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:Mirage doesn't lose a dodge in PvE and distortion isn't needed in PvE either...that's a very engineer player comparison.

This is exactly my point.

A fundamental mechanical change like removing all toolbelt skills won't become PvP only, they try to keep the mechanics of specs the same across the game modes and just change numbers (cooldowns, damage, healing, etc).And yes, even endurance is just a number.

Having access to toolbelt skills or not is not just a number. It is a mechanical change and if they would do that, they would do it for

all

game modes.

And like you said: distortion is not needed in PvE. Toolbelt on the other hand

is

needed in PvE, heavily!Toolbelt has a good punch of our dps. Toolbelt holds stunbreaks for the engineer. The toolbelt is even a

healing skill replacement

in the case of the med kit.

That's exactly what I am talking about. The changes done to chrono and mirage were not as impactful as taking away toolbelt skills from holosmith. You might not be aware of it, but that's how it is and I am sure Anet is also very well aware of this fact, hence why this change is ruled out.

Yeah, I'm sure every other class was not happy about their trade offs either. It sucks, but you just have to live with it. Sorry if you want to be jack of all trades master of all but that isn't healthy game design.

[Kodama.6453]

@Shiyo.3578 said:Yeah, I'm sure every other class was not happy about their trade offs either. It sucks, but you just have to live with it. Sorry if you want to be jack of all trades master of all but that isn't healthy game design.

You just keep ignoring the points I provided to you why a change like this isn't in the cards.

Ok. You can enjoy your fantasy. And I am living very well with this, since this change didn't find in the game and most likely never will. ^^

[mortrialus.3062]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:Its odd that you talk about Holosmiths utilities as if theyre incredibly amazing when the current meta holosmith doesnt run a

single

holosmith utility. Theyre worse than core utilities. So already we can cut more than half of your "what Holosmith provides" bullet points. The truth is that people

severely

overestimate Holosmith. Yes, it provides more damage than base Engineer thanks to enhanced heat capacity unit, and yes, you get a free mediocre kit in the form of photon forge. But that is, simply put, not that much.

As for your suggestion, lets reword it. "Lets make Holosmith unplayable in PvP". Its only slightly ahead of core engineer, so a nerf this massive, well lets just say it chronos the spec. It also is just poorly thought out. The problem with Holo right now isnt Holo itself. Its that as a result of the catastrophic february 25 patch, damage is far too low. Holosmith is not actually very tanky in a vacuum. But damage is so low even a glass cannon like Holosmith is unkillable, despite actually providing close to no sustain or defense at all (seriously, its got Heat Therapy, which is an average 50-100 healing per second. Thats just ... not much).

I think the truth lies somewhere between your view and the OP's.

You're 100% correct in saying Holosmith utilities are not used at all atm, pure sidegrade/downgrade to core utilites, no idea what OP is talking about there with his 3 bullet points on how good Holo utilities are - OP then goes on to say that Holosmith gains CC through traits, no idea how he justifies talking straight 25% nonsense in his post, I understand how you think he's overestimating Holosmith with some overt hyperbole, cause he is.

However, Holosmith is pretty far ahead of Core Engineer. It's got way more mobility, sustain, and might stacks. When it comes to Heat Therapy, this trait is a beast. When staying out of Forge it's healing 195 per second between 3-8 seconds, then 390 per second when venting maximum heat. It's very noticeable sustain compared to core.

The mobility Holo gets from master trait & photon Forge is an amazing escape tool. Between super speed escape and Heat Therapy, you basically slap on noticeable sustain and disengage to Core Engi and call it a day.

Only thing about Holo that should be potentially changed is mobility and sustain, ideally take a portion of that sustain and pump it into kits. Multi-kit builds should be the focus of next Engi re-work for sure.

Most of the Exceeds have seen plenty of use historically, even if it's currently meta to run Grenade Kit, Elixir U and Elixir S. Photon Wall has seen plenty of historic use, Spectrum Shield and Hard Light Arena have seen plenty of use. It's not like we're talking about Distracting Daggers, Impairing Daggers or Crystal Sands that are just 100% unused in PvP. My point is that not only does Holosmith enhance the engineer's capacity for damage and mobility beyond what core is capable of, but also sustain and defense in ways the spec simply shouldn't be doing, regardless of whether the Exceeds, which do see use, are currently meta at this exact moment.

Just because something saw use

before

, doesnt mean its still good. Druid saw a lot of use before. Spellbreaker saw a lot of use before. Scrapper saw a lot of use before. Theyre all not good anymore. As are the Exceed skills. They got nerfed, and now theyre just downgrades to core skills.

The point isn't that exceeds should be bad. The point is that exceeds shouldn't be defensively orientated, especially with how they can and have stacked with Core Engineer's existing defenses to make something even more defensive than core engineer on top of more damage, mobility, and healing. And just because something else is currently better doesn't mean the meta won't shift in a way where they see more play. The exceeds are still usable, we aren't talking about Druid Glyphs or Crystal Sands level bad here.

Actually, in some cases we

are

talking thatb ad here. But anyway, I disagree with your main point entirely. Holo is a melee bruiser. Of course it gets defense-focused utility skills, thats the whole point. You cant expect a melee glass cannon to function well without active defenses.

Holosmith is a melee bruiser. Scrapper is a melee bruiser. If everything is a melee bruiser then there's no point having different specs, hence why Holosmith has almost always completely muscled out Scrapper aside from immediately after the Gyro rework. Specs should have unique strengths and weaknesses, intended roles, and asymmetry. The idea that everything should be designed in a way where all the specs are all perfectly symmetrical and balanced with the cores with all of them having perfectly equal capabilities in every regard is nonsense. Holosmith should have unique strengths and weaknesses that differentiates it from Core and Scrapper. If the strengths are damage and mobility, then defense and sustain are the logical costs just like Scrapper's logical weaknesses should be damage and mobility in exchange for defense and support.

Also it's a little odd to call Holosmith a melee spec when all of the forge skills, including the auto attack are double melee range or more.

I never had a problem with, for example, Prime Light Beam. The only change I wanted to see on it before the megabalance was to add self reveal to the holosmith so that they can't blowout people with zero warning from stealth and I'm 100% in favor of adding the damage back to that skill. That's the frame work the exceeds should be operating under; high impact offensive skills with more potent effects at high heat. Not defensive skills that can be layered on top of core engineer's defensive utilities on top of all the damage, mobility, and sustain holosmith provides.

Again, you cant expect a melee spec to be a full glass cannon sidenoder. Imagine if Spellbreaker had no defenses. Engineers base defenses are good for the ranged playstyle engineer usually has, but for melee, not so much.

You say that like Elixir S alone isn't already more than enough to put Holosmith in the position of best build in the game right now. Also throughout a majority of spellbreaker's life the only defensive utility it was running was Shake It Off.

[Shiyo.3578]

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:Yeah, I'm sure every other class was not happy about their trade offs either. It sucks, but you just have to live with it. Sorry if you want to be jack of all trades master of all but that isn't healthy game design.

You just keep ignoring the points I provided to you why a change like this isn't in the cards.

Ok. You can enjoy your fantasy. And I am living very well with this, since this change didn't find in the game and most likely never will. ^^

I know for a fact holo will never lose toolbelt skills. Honestly, I'm pretty sure holo won't even receive a single nerf to anything relevant for the next 3 years. Engineer has been a gigantic issue in PvP since alpha and it's obvious intentional bias.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:Its odd that you talk about Holosmiths utilities as if theyre incredibly amazing when the current meta holosmith doesnt run a

single

holosmith utility. Theyre worse than core utilities. So already we can cut more than half of your "what Holosmith provides" bullet points. The truth is that people

severely

overestimate Holosmith. Yes, it provides more damage than base Engineer thanks to enhanced heat capacity unit, and yes, you get a free mediocre kit in the form of photon forge. But that is, simply put, not that much.

As for your suggestion, lets reword it. "Lets make Holosmith unplayable in PvP". Its only slightly ahead of core engineer, so a nerf this massive, well lets just say it chronos the spec. It also is just poorly thought out. The problem with Holo right now isnt Holo itself. Its that as a result of the catastrophic february 25 patch, damage is far too low. Holosmith is not actually very tanky in a vacuum. But damage is so low even a glass cannon like Holosmith is unkillable, despite actually providing close to no sustain or defense at all (seriously, its got Heat Therapy, which is an average 50-100 healing per second. Thats just ... not much).

I think the truth lies somewhere between your view and the OP's.

You're 100% correct in saying Holosmith utilities are not used at all atm, pure sidegrade/downgrade to core utilites, no idea what OP is talking about there with his 3 bullet points on how good Holo utilities are - OP then goes on to say that Holosmith gains CC through traits, no idea how he justifies talking straight 25% nonsense in his post, I understand how you think he's overestimating Holosmith with some overt hyperbole, cause he is.

However, Holosmith is pretty far ahead of Core Engineer. It's got way more mobility, sustain, and might stacks. When it comes to Heat Therapy, this trait is a beast. When staying out of Forge it's healing 195 per second between 3-8 seconds, then 390 per second when venting maximum heat. It's very noticeable sustain compared to core.

The mobility Holo gets from master trait & photon Forge is an amazing escape tool. Between super speed escape and Heat Therapy, you basically slap on noticeable sustain and disengage to Core Engi and call it a day.

Only thing about Holo that should be potentially changed is mobility and sustain, ideally take a portion of that sustain and pump it into kits. Multi-kit builds should be the focus of next Engi re-work for sure.

Most of the Exceeds have seen plenty of use historically, even if it's currently meta to run Grenade Kit, Elixir U and Elixir S. Photon Wall has seen plenty of historic use, Spectrum Shield and Hard Light Arena have seen plenty of use. It's not like we're talking about Distracting Daggers, Impairing Daggers or Crystal Sands that are just 100% unused in PvP. My point is that not only does Holosmith enhance the engineer's capacity for damage and mobility beyond what core is capable of, but also sustain and defense in ways the spec simply shouldn't be doing, regardless of whether the Exceeds, which do see use, are currently meta at this exact moment.

Just because something saw use

before

, doesnt mean its still good. Druid saw a lot of use before. Spellbreaker saw a lot of use before. Scrapper saw a lot of use before. Theyre all not good anymore. As are the Exceed skills. They got nerfed, and now theyre just downgrades to core skills.

The point isn't that exceeds should be bad. The point is that exceeds shouldn't be defensively orientated, especially with how they can and have stacked with Core Engineer's existing defenses to make something even more defensive than core engineer on top of more damage, mobility, and healing. And just because something else is currently better doesn't mean the meta won't shift in a way where they see more play. The exceeds are still usable, we aren't talking about Druid Glyphs or Crystal Sands level bad here.

Actually, in some cases we

are

talking thatb ad here. But anyway, I disagree with your main point entirely. Holo is a melee bruiser. Of course it gets defense-focused utility skills, thats the whole point. You cant expect a melee glass cannon to function well without active defenses.

I never had a problem with, for example, Prime Light Beam. The only change I wanted to see on it before the megabalance was to add self reveal to the holosmith so that they can't blowout people with zero warning from stealth and I'm 100% in favor of adding the damage back to that skill. That's the frame work the exceeds should be operating under; high impact offensive skills with more potent effects at high heat. Not defensive skills that can be layered on top of core engineer's defensive utilities on top of all the damage, mobility, and sustain holosmith provides.

Again, you cant expect a melee spec to be a full glass cannon sidenoder. Imagine if Spellbreaker had no defenses. Engineers base defenses are good for the ranged playstyle engineer usually has, but for melee, not so much.

Holosmith isn't a sidenoder, scrapper is. Holosmith is VERY clearly a glass cannon roamer. Why would a class have two specs that accomplish the exact same role?

You mean like how thief has 2 (3 if we include core) specs that are decap and +1 bots? Or how Necro has 2 teamfighting specs, as does Revenant? Sometimes elite specs do the same thing.

Eh, how is that clear at all. If you want a melee roamer, they need some way to get ontop of the target quickly. A teleport, or fast long-range dash, to be precise. If they wanted it to be a roamer, they wouldve given it something like that. Hell, the whole Elite Spec is themed around light, couldve given them a lightspeed kick or something.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:Mirage doesn't lose a dodge in PvE and distortion isn't needed in PvE either...that's a very engineer player comparison.

This is exactly my point.

A fundamental mechanical change like removing all toolbelt skills won't become PvP only, they try to keep the mechanics of specs the same across the game modes and just change numbers (cooldowns, damage, healing, etc).And yes, even endurance is just a number.

Having access to toolbelt skills or not is not just a number. It is a mechanical change and if they would do that, they would do it for

all

game modes.

And like you said: distortion is not needed in PvE. Toolbelt on the other hand

is

needed in PvE, heavily!Toolbelt has a good punch of our dps. Toolbelt holds stunbreaks for the engineer. The toolbelt is even a

healing skill replacement

in the case of the med kit.

That's exactly what I am talking about. The changes done to chrono and mirage were not as impactful as taking away toolbelt skills from holosmith. You might not be aware of it, but that's how it is and I am sure Anet is also very well aware of this fact, hence why this change is ruled out.

Yeah, I'm sure every other class was not happy about their trade offs either. It sucks, but you just have to live with it. Sorry if you want to be jack of all trades master of all but that isn't healthy game design.

Youre missing the point that the tradeoff you propose is worse than any all other classes ever had. Its not like Chrono losing distortion. Instead, it would be more like Chrono losing access to phantasms and clones alltogether.

[UNOwen.7132]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:Its odd that you talk about Holosmiths utilities as if theyre incredibly amazing when the current meta holosmith doesnt run a

single

holosmith utility. Theyre worse than core utilities. So already we can cut more than half of your "what Holosmith provides" bullet points. The truth is that people

severely

overestimate Holosmith. Yes, it provides more damage than base Engineer thanks to enhanced heat capacity unit, and yes, you get a free mediocre kit in the form of photon forge. But that is, simply put, not that much.

As for your suggestion, lets reword it. "Lets make Holosmith unplayable in PvP". Its only slightly ahead of core engineer, so a nerf this massive, well lets just say it chronos the spec. It also is just poorly thought out. The problem with Holo right now isnt Holo itself. Its that as a result of the catastrophic february 25 patch, damage is far too low. Holosmith is not actually very tanky in a vacuum. But damage is so low even a glass cannon like Holosmith is unkillable, despite actually providing close to no sustain or defense at all (seriously, its got Heat Therapy, which is an average 50-100 healing per second. Thats just ... not much).

I think the truth lies somewhere between your view and the OP's.

You're 100% correct in saying Holosmith utilities are not used at all atm, pure sidegrade/downgrade to core utilites, no idea what OP is talking about there with his 3 bullet points on how good Holo utilities are - OP then goes on to say that Holosmith gains CC through traits, no idea how he justifies talking straight 25% nonsense in his post, I understand how you think he's overestimating Holosmith with some overt hyperbole, cause he is.

However, Holosmith is pretty far ahead of Core Engineer. It's got way more mobility, sustain, and might stacks. When it comes to Heat Therapy, this trait is a beast. When staying out of Forge it's healing 195 per second between 3-8 seconds, then 390 per second when venting maximum heat. It's very noticeable sustain compared to core.

The mobility Holo gets from master trait & photon Forge is an amazing escape tool. Between super speed escape and Heat Therapy, you basically slap on noticeable sustain and disengage to Core Engi and call it a day.

Only thing about Holo that should be potentially changed is mobility and sustain, ideally take a portion of that sustain and pump it into kits. Multi-kit builds should be the focus of next Engi re-work for sure.

Most of the Exceeds have seen plenty of use historically, even if it's currently meta to run Grenade Kit, Elixir U and Elixir S. Photon Wall has seen plenty of historic use, Spectrum Shield and Hard Light Arena have seen plenty of use. It's not like we're talking about Distracting Daggers, Impairing Daggers or Crystal Sands that are just 100% unused in PvP. My point is that not only does Holosmith enhance the engineer's capacity for damage and mobility beyond what core is capable of, but also sustain and defense in ways the spec simply shouldn't be doing, regardless of whether the Exceeds, which do see use, are currently meta at this exact moment.

Just because something saw use

before

, doesnt mean its still good. Druid saw a lot of use before. Spellbreaker saw a lot of use before. Scrapper saw a lot of use before. Theyre all not good anymore. As are the Exceed skills. They got nerfed, and now theyre just downgrades to core skills.

The point isn't that exceeds should be bad. The point is that exceeds shouldn't be defensively orientated, especially with how they can and have stacked with Core Engineer's existing defenses to make something even more defensive than core engineer on top of more damage, mobility, and healing. And just because something else is currently better doesn't mean the meta won't shift in a way where they see more play. The exceeds are still usable, we aren't talking about Druid Glyphs or Crystal Sands level bad here.

Actually, in some cases we

are

talking thatb ad here. But anyway, I disagree with your main point entirely. Holo is a melee bruiser. Of course it gets defense-focused utility skills, thats the whole point. You cant expect a melee glass cannon to function well without active defenses.

Holosmith is a melee bruiser. Scrapper is a melee bruiser. If everything is a melee bruiser then there's no point having different specs, hence why Holosmith has almost always completely muscled out Scrapper aside from immediately after the Gyro rework. Specs should have unique strengths and weaknesses, intended roles, and asymmetry. The idea that everything should be designed in a way where all the specs are all perfectly symmetrical and balanced with the cores with all of them having perfectly equal capabilities in every regard is nonsense. Holosmith should have unique strengths and weaknesses that differentiates it from Core and Scrapper. If the strengths are damage and mobility, then defense and sustain are the logical costs just like Scrapper's logical weaknesses should be damage and mobility in exchange for defense and support.

Scrapper was "muscled out" because scrapper sucks. It sucked during the later stages of HoT already. It also sucks because they ruined function gyro, but thats beside the point. And yes, they both have similar purposes, the difference is Scrapper is (supposed to be, at any rate) a teamfighting bruiser, while holo is a sidenoding bruiser. And yes, it should. It did, before the patch. But now damage is so low that a glass cannon like Holo is as unkillable as a bunker. The solution to that is to increase damage across the board. Which needs to be done anyway.

Also it's a little odd to call Holosmith a melee spec when all of the forge skills, including the auto attack are double melee range or more.

200 range (or whatever the exact number is) is still melee. Its also not twice the regular, I digress. You wouldnt call Reaper Shroud not melee either, would you?

I never had a problem with, for example, Prime Light Beam. The only change I wanted to see on it before the megabalance was to add self reveal to the holosmith so that they can't blowout people with zero warning from stealth and I'm 100% in favor of adding the damage back to that skill. That's the frame work the exceeds should be operating under; high impact offensive skills with more potent effects at high heat. Not defensive skills that can be layered on top of core engineer's defensive utilities on top of all the damage, mobility, and sustain holosmith provides.

Again, you cant expect a melee spec to be a full glass cannon sidenoder. Imagine if Spellbreaker had no defenses. Engineers base defenses are good for the ranged playstyle engineer usually has, but for melee, not so much.

You say that like Elixir S alone isn't already more than enough to put Holosmith in the position of best build in the game right now. Also throughout a majority of spellbreaker's life the only defensive utility it was running was Shake It Off.

Thats only because damage right now is so pathetically low a healing skill means youre an unkillable bunker in a 1v1. As I said, the solution to that is to up damage across the board, and partially revert the february patch, which again, needs to happen *either way. And Spellbreakers full counter is inherent defense it gets.

[mortrialus.3062]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:Its odd that you talk about Holosmiths utilities as if theyre incredibly amazing when the current meta holosmith doesnt run a

single

holosmith utility. Theyre worse than core utilities. So already we can cut more than half of your "what Holosmith provides" bullet points. The truth is that people

severely

overestimate Holosmith. Yes, it provides more damage than base Engineer thanks to enhanced heat capacity unit, and yes, you get a free mediocre kit in the form of photon forge. But that is, simply put, not that much.

As for your suggestion, lets reword it. "Lets make Holosmith unplayable in PvP". Its only slightly ahead of core engineer, so a nerf this massive, well lets just say it chronos the spec. It also is just poorly thought out. The problem with Holo right now isnt Holo itself. Its that as a result of the catastrophic february 25 patch, damage is far too low. Holosmith is not actually very tanky in a vacuum. But damage is so low even a glass cannon like Holosmith is unkillable, despite actually providing close to no sustain or defense at all (seriously, its got Heat Therapy, which is an average 50-100 healing per second. Thats just ... not much).

I think the truth lies somewhere between your view and the OP's.

You're 100% correct in saying Holosmith utilities are not used at all atm, pure sidegrade/downgrade to core utilites, no idea what OP is talking about there with his 3 bullet points on how good Holo utilities are - OP then goes on to say that Holosmith gains CC through traits, no idea how he justifies talking straight 25% nonsense in his post, I understand how you think he's overestimating Holosmith with some overt hyperbole, cause he is.

However, Holosmith is pretty far ahead of Core Engineer. It's got way more mobility, sustain, and might stacks. When it comes to Heat Therapy, this trait is a beast. When staying out of Forge it's healing 195 per second between 3-8 seconds, then 390 per second when venting maximum heat. It's very noticeable sustain compared to core.

The mobility Holo gets from master trait & photon Forge is an amazing escape tool. Between super speed escape and Heat Therapy, you basically slap on noticeable sustain and disengage to Core Engi and call it a day.

Only thing about Holo that should be potentially changed is mobility and sustain, ideally take a portion of that sustain and pump it into kits. Multi-kit builds should be the focus of next Engi re-work for sure.

Most of the Exceeds have seen plenty of use historically, even if it's currently meta to run Grenade Kit, Elixir U and Elixir S. Photon Wall has seen plenty of historic use, Spectrum Shield and Hard Light Arena have seen plenty of use. It's not like we're talking about Distracting Daggers, Impairing Daggers or Crystal Sands that are just 100% unused in PvP. My point is that not only does Holosmith enhance the engineer's capacity for damage and mobility beyond what core is capable of, but also sustain and defense in ways the spec simply shouldn't be doing, regardless of whether the Exceeds, which do see use, are currently meta at this exact moment.

Just because something saw use

before

, doesnt mean its still good. Druid saw a lot of use before. Spellbreaker saw a lot of use before. Scrapper saw a lot of use before. Theyre all not good anymore. As are the Exceed skills. They got nerfed, and now theyre just downgrades to core skills.

The point isn't that exceeds should be bad. The point is that exceeds shouldn't be defensively orientated, especially with how they can and have stacked with Core Engineer's existing defenses to make something even more defensive than core engineer on top of more damage, mobility, and healing. And just because something else is currently better doesn't mean the meta won't shift in a way where they see more play. The exceeds are still usable, we aren't talking about Druid Glyphs or Crystal Sands level bad here.

Actually, in some cases we

are

talking thatb ad here. But anyway, I disagree with your main point entirely. Holo is a melee bruiser. Of course it gets defense-focused utility skills, thats the whole point. You cant expect a melee glass cannon to function well without active defenses.

I never had a problem with, for example, Prime Light Beam. The only change I wanted to see on it before the megabalance was to add self reveal to the holosmith so that they can't blowout people with zero warning from stealth and I'm 100% in favor of adding the damage back to that skill. That's the frame work the exceeds should be operating under; high impact offensive skills with more potent effects at high heat. Not defensive skills that can be layered on top of core engineer's defensive utilities on top of all the damage, mobility, and sustain holosmith provides.

Again, you cant expect a melee spec to be a full glass cannon sidenoder. Imagine if Spellbreaker had no defenses. Engineers base defenses are good for the ranged playstyle engineer usually has, but for melee, not so much.

Holosmith isn't a sidenoder, scrapper is. Holosmith is VERY clearly a glass cannon roamer. Why would a class have two specs that accomplish the exact same role?

You mean like how thief has 2 (3 if we include core) specs that are decap and +1 bots? Or how Necro has 2 teamfighting specs, as does Revenant? Sometimes elite specs do the same thing.

Eh, how is that clear at all. If you want a melee roamer, they need some way to get ontop of the target quickly. A teleport, or fast long-range dash, to be precise. If they wanted it to be a roamer, they wouldve given it something like that. Hell, the whole Elite Spec is themed around light, couldve given them a lightspeed kick or something.

At least with necro there's a clear set of strengths and weaknesses for all three which is a good model of how the core and elite specs should play off each other.

1. Core Necro: Maximum defensive capability with the profession mechanic, profession mechanic is ranged allowing for simultaneous kiting to further maximize the defensive capability.
2. Reaper: Heavy melee damage. Shroud both degenerates faster and is entirely melee, making it riskier to utilize compared to core shroud and further reducing capacity as a defensive tool compared to Core Necro.
3. Scourge: Gains significantly higher AoE condition pressure. Loses dedicated shroud for weaker barrier, making it far less effective defensively than the other two specs. Team barrier gives it some support capacity.

Regardless of which is meta at any given time, there's always a serious difference in the strengths and weaknesses of any particular version of necromancer and reasons to pick any of them over any of the others. You and Chaith always seem to want;

1. Core Engineer: Jack of All Trades Master of All Trades. Best build in the game do not touch.
2. Holosmith: Jack of All Trades Master of All Trades. Best build in the game do not touch.
3. Scrapper: Jack of All Trades Master of All Trades. Best build in the game do not touch.

Also pre-megabalance Holo was still unkillable as a bunker. It's not just current damage numbers, Holosmith has always been like this. See Prot Holo.

[UNOwen.7132]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:Its odd that you talk about Holosmiths utilities as if theyre incredibly amazing when the current meta holosmith doesnt run a

single

holosmith utility. Theyre worse than core utilities. So already we can cut more than half of your "what Holosmith provides" bullet points. The truth is that people

severely

overestimate Holosmith. Yes, it provides more damage than base Engineer thanks to enhanced heat capacity unit, and yes, you get a free mediocre kit in the form of photon forge. But that is, simply put, not that much.

As for your suggestion, lets reword it. "Lets make Holosmith unplayable in PvP". Its only slightly ahead of core engineer, so a nerf this massive, well lets just say it chronos the spec. It also is just poorly thought out. The problem with Holo right now isnt Holo itself. Its that as a result of the catastrophic february 25 patch, damage is far too low. Holosmith is not actually very tanky in a vacuum. But damage is so low even a glass cannon like Holosmith is unkillable, despite actually providing close to no sustain or defense at all (seriously, its got Heat Therapy, which is an average 50-100 healing per second. Thats just ... not much).

I think the truth lies somewhere between your view and the OP's.

You're 100% correct in saying Holosmith utilities are not used at all atm, pure sidegrade/downgrade to core utilites, no idea what OP is talking about there with his 3 bullet points on how good Holo utilities are - OP then goes on to say that Holosmith gains CC through traits, no idea how he justifies talking straight 25% nonsense in his post, I understand how you think he's overestimating Holosmith with some overt hyperbole, cause he is.

However, Holosmith is pretty far ahead of Core Engineer. It's got way more mobility, sustain, and might stacks. When it comes to Heat Therapy, this trait is a beast. When staying out of Forge it's healing 195 per second between 3-8 seconds, then 390 per second when venting maximum heat. It's very noticeable sustain compared to core.

The mobility Holo gets from master trait & photon Forge is an amazing escape tool. Between super speed escape and Heat Therapy, you basically slap on noticeable sustain and disengage to Core Engi and call it a day.

Only thing about Holo that should be potentially changed is mobility and sustain, ideally take a portion of that sustain and pump it into kits. Multi-kit builds should be the focus of next Engi re-work for sure.

Most of the Exceeds have seen plenty of use historically, even if it's currently meta to run Grenade Kit, Elixir U and Elixir S. Photon Wall has seen plenty of historic use, Spectrum Shield and Hard Light Arena have seen plenty of use. It's not like we're talking about Distracting Daggers, Impairing Daggers or Crystal Sands that are just 100% unused in PvP. My point is that not only does Holosmith enhance the engineer's capacity for damage and mobility beyond what core is capable of, but also sustain and defense in ways the spec simply shouldn't be doing, regardless of whether the Exceeds, which do see use, are currently meta at this exact moment.

Just because something saw use

before

, doesnt mean its still good. Druid saw a lot of use before. Spellbreaker saw a lot of use before. Scrapper saw a lot of use before. Theyre all not good anymore. As are the Exceed skills. They got nerfed, and now theyre just downgrades to core skills.

The point isn't that exceeds should be bad. The point is that exceeds shouldn't be defensively orientated, especially with how they can and have stacked with Core Engineer's existing defenses to make something even more defensive than core engineer on top of more damage, mobility, and healing. And just because something else is currently better doesn't mean the meta won't shift in a way where they see more play. The exceeds are still usable, we aren't talking about Druid Glyphs or Crystal Sands level bad here.

Actually, in some cases we

are

talking thatb ad here. But anyway, I disagree with your main point entirely. Holo is a melee bruiser. Of course it gets defense-focused utility skills, thats the whole point. You cant expect a melee glass cannon to function well without active defenses.

I never had a problem with, for example, Prime Light Beam. The only change I wanted to see on it before the megabalance was to add self reveal to the holosmith so that they can't blowout people with zero warning from stealth and I'm 100% in favor of adding the damage back to that skill. That's the frame work the exceeds should be operating under; high impact offensive skills with more potent effects at high heat. Not defensive skills that can be layered on top of core engineer's defensive utilities on top of all the damage, mobility, and sustain holosmith provides.

Again, you cant expect a melee spec to be a full glass cannon sidenoder. Imagine if Spellbreaker had no defenses. Engineers base defenses are good for the ranged playstyle engineer usually has, but for melee, not so much.

Holosmith isn't a sidenoder, scrapper is. Holosmith is VERY clearly a glass cannon roamer. Why would a class have two specs that accomplish the exact same role?

You mean like how thief has 2 (3 if we include core) specs that are decap and +1 bots? Or how Necro has 2 teamfighting specs, as does Revenant? Sometimes elite specs do the same thing.

Eh, how is that clear at all. If you want a melee roamer, they need some way to get ontop of the target quickly. A teleport, or fast long-range dash, to be precise. If they wanted it to be a roamer, they wouldve given it something like that. Hell, the whole Elite Spec is themed around light, couldve given them a lightspeed kick or something.

At least with necro there's a clear set of strengths and weaknesses for all three which is a good model of how the core and elite specs should play off each other.

1. Core Necro: Maximum defensive capability with the profession mechanic, profession mechanic is ranged allowing for simultaneous kiting to further maximize the defensive capability.
2. Reaper: Heavy melee damage. Shroud both degenerates faster and is entirely melee, making it riskier to utilize compared to core shroud and further reducing capacity as a defensive tool compared to Core Necro.
3. Scourge: Gains significantly higher AoE condition pressure. Loses dedicated shroud for weaker barrier, making it far less effective defensively than the other two specs. Team barrier gives it some support capacity.

Yes, they all have strengths and weaknesses. As do Scrapper, Core and Holo. But here is the problem. Those weaknesses assumed that there is a difference between glass and bunker, and right now, there isnt. This ironically also means there isnt much of a set of strengths or weaknesses between core necro or reaper. Theyre both equally defensive, Reaper just does way more damage.

Regardless of which is meta at any given time, there's always a serious difference in the strengths and weaknesses of any particular version of necromancer and reasons to pick any of them over any of the others. You and Chaith always seem to want;

1. Core Engineer: Jack of All Trades Master of All Trades.
2. Holosmith: Jack of All Trades Master of All Trades.
3. Scrapper: Jack of All Trades Master of All Trades.

Nice strawman. No, what we want is all 3 to be playable. What you want is

1. Core Engineer: The good one
2. Holosmith: unplayable
3. Scrapper: unplayable.

But lets elaborate. Holos strength is higher damage compared to Scrapper (and a power mainhand weapon though that one technically doesnt count), as well as improved mobility. Its weakness is a lot lower survivability, and significantly worse disruption. Here is the problem though. Lower survivability simply doesnt matter right now. If the baseline is "unkillable", why add any more? Holosmith doesnt have a lot of sustain or survivability compared to dedicated defensive classes. But with damage being far below where it should be, that just doesnt matter. And Disruption is also not as useful in such a low damage meta.

Now, lets say we fixed that. Lets say we improved damage across the board by 30%, at least. All of a sudden, Holosmith can actually die. And quite easily, too. All of a sudden being a glass cannon comes with risk. Then Scrappers advantage becomes relevant. Sidenoding is no longer forced into a game of "knockback chicken until a +1 arrives". The game improves.

What Ive been saying the whole time is that Holos issue isnt an issue with Holo, its an issue with damage being too low in general.

Edit: as for Prot Holo which you bring up, thats the point though. Prot Holo had to give up a lot of damage for that survivability. Prot Holo didnt really kill anyone in a 1v1. It was just ludicrously hard to kill. It was a dedicated bunker build. Thats fine, strengths and weaknesses apply here still, theyre just flipped.

[mortrialus.3062]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:Its odd that you talk about Holosmiths utilities as if theyre incredibly amazing when the current meta holosmith doesnt run a

single

holosmith utility. Theyre worse than core utilities. So already we can cut more than half of your "what Holosmith provides" bullet points. The truth is that people

severely

overestimate Holosmith. Yes, it provides more damage than base Engineer thanks to enhanced heat capacity unit, and yes, you get a free mediocre kit in the form of photon forge. But that is, simply put, not that much.

As for your suggestion, lets reword it. "Lets make Holosmith unplayable in PvP". Its only slightly ahead of core engineer, so a nerf this massive, well lets just say it chronos the spec. It also is just poorly thought out. The problem with Holo right now isnt Holo itself. Its that as a result of the catastrophic february 25 patch, damage is far too low. Holosmith is not actually very tanky in a vacuum. But damage is so low even a glass cannon like Holosmith is unkillable, despite actually providing close to no sustain or defense at all (seriously, its got Heat Therapy, which is an average 50-100 healing per second. Thats just ... not much).

I think the truth lies somewhere between your view and the OP's.

You're 100% correct in saying Holosmith utilities are not used at all atm, pure sidegrade/downgrade to core utilites, no idea what OP is talking about there with his 3 bullet points on how good Holo utilities are - OP then goes on to say that Holosmith gains CC through traits, no idea how he justifies talking straight 25% nonsense in his post, I understand how you think he's overestimating Holosmith with some overt hyperbole, cause he is.

However, Holosmith is pretty far ahead of Core Engineer. It's got way more mobility, sustain, and might stacks. When it comes to Heat Therapy, this trait is a beast. When staying out of Forge it's healing 195 per second between 3-8 seconds, then 390 per second when venting maximum heat. It's very noticeable sustain compared to core.

The mobility Holo gets from master trait & photon Forge is an amazing escape tool. Between super speed escape and Heat Therapy, you basically slap on noticeable sustain and disengage to Core Engi and call it a day.

Only thing about Holo that should be potentially changed is mobility and sustain, ideally take a portion of that sustain and pump it into kits. Multi-kit builds should be the focus of next Engi re-work for sure.

Most of the Exceeds have seen plenty of use historically, even if it's currently meta to run Grenade Kit, Elixir U and Elixir S. Photon Wall has seen plenty of historic use, Spectrum Shield and Hard Light Arena have seen plenty of use. It's not like we're talking about Distracting Daggers, Impairing Daggers or Crystal Sands that are just 100% unused in PvP. My point is that not only does Holosmith enhance the engineer's capacity for damage and mobility beyond what core is capable of, but also sustain and defense in ways the spec simply shouldn't be doing, regardless of whether the Exceeds, which do see use, are currently meta at this exact moment.

Just because something saw use

before

, doesnt mean its still good. Druid saw a lot of use before. Spellbreaker saw a lot of use before. Scrapper saw a lot of use before. Theyre all not good anymore. As are the Exceed skills. They got nerfed, and now theyre just downgrades to core skills.

The point isn't that exceeds should be bad. The point is that exceeds shouldn't be defensively orientated, especially with how they can and have stacked with Core Engineer's existing defenses to make something even more defensive than core engineer on top of more damage, mobility, and healing. And just because something else is currently better doesn't mean the meta won't shift in a way where they see more play. The exceeds are still usable, we aren't talking about Druid Glyphs or Crystal Sands level bad here.

Actually, in some cases we

are

talking thatb ad here. But anyway, I disagree with your main point entirely. Holo is a melee bruiser. Of course it gets defense-focused utility skills, thats the whole point. You cant expect a melee glass cannon to function well without active defenses.

I never had a problem with, for example, Prime Light Beam. The only change I wanted to see on it before the megabalance was to add self reveal to the holosmith so that they can't blowout people with zero warning from stealth and I'm 100% in favor of adding the damage back to that skill. That's the frame work the exceeds should be operating under; high impact offensive skills with more potent effects at high heat. Not defensive skills that can be layered on top of core engineer's defensive utilities on top of all the damage, mobility, and sustain holosmith provides.

Again, you cant expect a melee spec to be a full glass cannon sidenoder. Imagine if Spellbreaker had no defenses. Engineers base defenses are good for the ranged playstyle engineer usually has, but for melee, not so much.

Holosmith isn't a sidenoder, scrapper is. Holosmith is VERY clearly a glass cannon roamer. Why would a class have two specs that accomplish the exact same role?

You mean like how thief has 2 (3 if we include core) specs that are decap and +1 bots? Or how Necro has 2 teamfighting specs, as does Revenant? Sometimes elite specs do the same thing.

Eh, how is that clear at all. If you want a melee roamer, they need some way to get ontop of the target quickly. A teleport, or fast long-range dash, to be precise. If they wanted it to be a roamer, they wouldve given it something like that. Hell, the whole Elite Spec is themed around light, couldve given them a lightspeed kick or something.

At least with necro there's a clear set of strengths and weaknesses for all three which is a good model of how the core and elite specs should play off each other.

1. Core Necro: Maximum defensive capability with the profession mechanic, profession mechanic is ranged allowing for simultaneous kiting to further maximize the defensive capability.
2. Reaper: Heavy melee damage. Shroud both degenerates faster and is entirely melee, making it riskier to utilize compared to core shroud and further reducing capacity as a defensive tool compared to Core Necro.
3. Scourge: Gains significantly higher AoE condition pressure. Loses dedicated shroud for weaker barrier, making it far less effective defensively than the other two specs. Team barrier gives it some support capacity.

Yes, they all have strengths and weaknesses. As do Scrapper, Core and Holo. But here is the problem. Those weaknesses assumed that there is a difference between glass and bunker, and right now, there isnt. This ironically also means there isnt much of a set of strengths or weaknesses between core necro or reaper. Theyre both equally defensive, Reaper just does way more damage.

Reaper has significantly faster shroud degeneration, 3% per second vs 5% per second. Shroud as a result always lasts a shorter duration than Core shroud making it weaker as a defensive tool. Reaper Shroud is is higher damage at the expense of being melee only, making it both more susceptible to getting counter pressured than Core when it uses it's shroud, not to mention being kited. Reaper is inherently less durable than Core Necro both by mechanics and hard baked into the numbers.

Regardless of which is meta at any given time, there's always a serious difference in the strengths and weaknesses of any particular version of necromancer and reasons to pick any of them over any of the others. You and Chaith always seem to want;

1. Core Engineer: Jack of All Trades Master of All Trades.
2. Holosmith: Jack of All Trades Master of All Trades.
3. Scrapper: Jack of All Trades Master of All Trades.

Nice strawman. No, what we want is all 3 to be playable. What you want is

1. Core Engineer: The good one
2. Holosmith: unplayable
3. Scrapper: unplayable.

More like

1. Core Engineer: All-rounder. No obvious strengths but no obvious weaknesses.
2. Holosmith: Glass Canon. Higher damage and mobility but weaker sustain. Rushdown style gameplay, kill them quick before they kill you.
3. Scrapper: Tank. Higher defense and support, lower damage and mobility. Bunker gameplay, survive their damage with smart use of excellent defensive skills and wear them down.

Now, lets say we fixed that. Lets say we improved damage across the board by 30%, at least. All of a sudden, Holosmith can actually die. And quite easily, too. All of a sudden being a glass cannon comes with risk. Then Scrappers advantage becomes relevant. Sidenoding is no longer forced into a game of "knockback chicken until a +1 arrives". The game improves.

What Ive been saying the whole time is that Holos issue isnt an issue with Holo, its an issue with damage being too low in general.

Edit: as for Prot Holo which you bring up, thats the point though. Prot Holo had to give up a lot of damage for that survivability. Prot Holo didnt really kill anyone in a 1v1. It was just ludicrously hard to kill. It was a dedicated bunker build. Thats fine, strengths and weaknesses apply here still, theyre just flipped.

I've fought Drydude plenty of times. Prot Holo might not have been AS deadly as Tools Holo but it was still consistently a very deadly dangerous threat, would frequently force you off node with it's high pressure, and even in the event of the fight ultimately stalling out screwing up still meant get you'd get picked apart in seconds.

[UNOwen.7132]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:Its odd that you talk about Holosmiths utilities as if theyre incredibly amazing when the current meta holosmith doesnt run a

single

holosmith utility. Theyre worse than core utilities. So already we can cut more than half of your "what Holosmith provides" bullet points. The truth is that people

severely

overestimate Holosmith. Yes, it provides more damage than base Engineer thanks to enhanced heat capacity unit, and yes, you get a free mediocre kit in the form of photon forge. But that is, simply put, not that much.

As for your suggestion, lets reword it. "Lets make Holosmith unplayable in PvP". Its only slightly ahead of core engineer, so a nerf this massive, well lets just say it chronos the spec. It also is just poorly thought out. The problem with Holo right now isnt Holo itself. Its that as a result of the catastrophic february 25 patch, damage is far too low. Holosmith is not actually very tanky in a vacuum. But damage is so low even a glass cannon like Holosmith is unkillable, despite actually providing close to no sustain or defense at all (seriously, its got Heat Therapy, which is an average 50-100 healing per second. Thats just ... not much).

I think the truth lies somewhere between your view and the OP's.

You're 100% correct in saying Holosmith utilities are not used at all atm, pure sidegrade/downgrade to core utilites, no idea what OP is talking about there with his 3 bullet points on how good Holo utilities are - OP then goes on to say that Holosmith gains CC through traits, no idea how he justifies talking straight 25% nonsense in his post, I understand how you think he's overestimating Holosmith with some overt hyperbole, cause he is.

However, Holosmith is pretty far ahead of Core Engineer. It's got way more mobility, sustain, and might stacks. When it comes to Heat Therapy, this trait is a beast. When staying out of Forge it's healing 195 per second between 3-8 seconds, then 390 per second when venting maximum heat. It's very noticeable sustain compared to core.

The mobility Holo gets from master trait & photon Forge is an amazing escape tool. Between super speed escape and Heat Therapy, you basically slap on noticeable sustain and disengage to Core Engi and call it a day.

Only thing about Holo that should be potentially changed is mobility and sustain, ideally take a portion of that sustain and pump it into kits. Multi-kit builds should be the focus of next Engi re-work for sure.

Most of the Exceeds have seen plenty of use historically, even if it's currently meta to run Grenade Kit, Elixir U and Elixir S. Photon Wall has seen plenty of historic use, Spectrum Shield and Hard Light Arena have seen plenty of use. It's not like we're talking about Distracting Daggers, Impairing Daggers or Crystal Sands that are just 100% unused in PvP. My point is that not only does Holosmith enhance the engineer's capacity for damage and mobility beyond what core is capable of, but also sustain and defense in ways the spec simply shouldn't be doing, regardless of whether the Exceeds, which do see use, are currently meta at this exact moment.

Just because something saw use

before

, doesnt mean its still good. Druid saw a lot of use before. Spellbreaker saw a lot of use before. Scrapper saw a lot of use before. Theyre all not good anymore. As are the Exceed skills. They got nerfed, and now theyre just downgrades to core skills.

The point isn't that exceeds should be bad. The point is that exceeds shouldn't be defensively orientated, especially with how they can and have stacked with Core Engineer's existing defenses to make something even more defensive than core engineer on top of more damage, mobility, and healing. And just because something else is currently better doesn't mean the meta won't shift in a way where they see more play. The exceeds are still usable, we aren't talking about Druid Glyphs or Crystal Sands level bad here.

Actually, in some cases we

are

talking thatb ad here. But anyway, I disagree with your main point entirely. Holo is a melee bruiser. Of course it gets defense-focused utility skills, thats the whole point. You cant expect a melee glass cannon to function well without active defenses.

I never had a problem with, for example, Prime Light Beam. The only change I wanted to see on it before the megabalance was to add self reveal to the holosmith so that they can't blowout people with zero warning from stealth and I'm 100% in favor of adding the damage back to that skill. That's the frame work the exceeds should be operating under; high impact offensive skills with more potent effects at high heat. Not defensive skills that can be layered on top of core engineer's defensive utilities on top of all the damage, mobility, and sustain holosmith provides.

Again, you cant expect a melee spec to be a full glass cannon sidenoder. Imagine if Spellbreaker had no defenses. Engineers base defenses are good for the ranged playstyle engineer usually has, but for melee, not so much.

Holosmith isn't a sidenoder, scrapper is. Holosmith is VERY clearly a glass cannon roamer. Why would a class have two specs that accomplish the exact same role?

You mean like how thief has 2 (3 if we include core) specs that are decap and +1 bots? Or how Necro has 2 teamfighting specs, as does Revenant? Sometimes elite specs do the same thing.

Eh, how is that clear at all. If you want a melee roamer, they need some way to get ontop of the target quickly. A teleport, or fast long-range dash, to be precise. If they wanted it to be a roamer, they wouldve given it something like that. Hell, the whole Elite Spec is themed around light, couldve given them a lightspeed kick or something.

At least with necro there's a clear set of strengths and weaknesses for all three which is a good model of how the core and elite specs should play off each other.

1. Core Necro: Maximum defensive capability with the profession mechanic, profession mechanic is ranged allowing for simultaneous kiting to further maximize the defensive capability.
2. Reaper: Heavy melee damage. Shroud both degenerates faster and is entirely melee, making it riskier to utilize compared to core shroud and further reducing capacity as a defensive tool compared to Core Necro.
3. Scourge: Gains significantly higher AoE condition pressure. Loses dedicated shroud for weaker barrier, making it far less effective defensively than the other two specs. Team barrier gives it some support capacity.

Yes, they all have strengths and weaknesses. As do Scrapper, Core and Holo. But here is the problem. Those weaknesses assumed that there is a difference between glass and bunker, and right now, there isnt. This ironically also means there isnt much of a set of strengths or weaknesses between core necro or reaper. Theyre both equally defensive, Reaper just does way more damage.

Reaper has significantly faster shroud degeneration, 3% per second vs 5% per second. Shroud as a result always lasts a shorter duration than Core shroud making it weaker as a defensive tool. Reaper Shroud is is higher damage at the expense of being melee only, making it both more susceptible to getting counter pressured than Core when it uses it's shroud, not to mention being kited. Reaper is inherently less durable than Core Necro both by mechanics and hard baked into the numbers.

The point is that "weaker as a defensive tool" is meaningless when "unkillable" is the baseline. Holos defense is way below scrapper. But that doesnt matter, Holo is unkillable, and being more unkillable than unkillable is pointless.

Regardless of which is meta at any given time, there's always a serious difference in the strengths and weaknesses of any particular version of necromancer and reasons to pick any of them over any of the others. You and Chaith always seem to want;

1. Core Engineer: Jack of All Trades Master of All Trades.
2. Holosmith: Jack of All Trades Master of All Trades.
3. Scrapper: Jack of All Trades Master of All Trades.

Nice strawman. No, what we want is all 3 to be playable. What you want is

1. Core Engineer: The good one
2. Holosmith: unplayable
3. Scrapper: unplayable.

More like

1. Core Engineer: All-rounder. No obvious strengths but no obvious weaknesses.
2. Holosmith: Glass Canon. Higher damage and mobility but weaker sustain.
3. Scrapper: Tank. Higher defense and support, lower damage and mobility.

Problem is Holo is not designed to be a glass cannon. Its designed to be either a glass cannon or a bunker. Its just, right now "bunker" is meaningless. The only thing that is lacking is that Core Engineer lacks a certain something over Holo, Scrappers and Holos equilibrium would be fine, if damage wasnt far below the minimum threshold. As for what to give Core, just give em a mainhand mace and maybe buff up Firearms or something. Or give em better kits. Iunno.

Now, lets say we fixed that. Lets say we improved damage across the board by 30%, at least. All of a sudden, Holosmith can actually die. And quite easily, too. All of a sudden being a glass cannon comes with risk. Then Scrappers advantage becomes relevant. Sidenoding is no longer forced into a game of "knockback chicken until a +1 arrives". The game improves.

What Ive been saying the whole time is that Holos issue isnt an issue with

Holo

, its an issue with

damage being too low in general

.

Edit: as for Prot Holo which you bring up, thats the point though. Prot Holo had to give up a lot of damage for that survivability. Prot Holo didnt really kill anyone in a 1v1. It was just ludicrously hard to kill. It was a dedicated bunker build. Thats fine, strengths and weaknesses apply here still, theyre just flipped.

I've fought Drydude. Prot Holo might not have been AS deadly as Tools Holo but it was still consistently a very deadly dangerous threat, would frequently force you off node with it's high pressure, and even in the event of the fight ultimately stalling out screwing up still meant get you'd get picked apart in seconds.

It wasnt even remotely as deadly. It just wasnt deadly at all. Its similar to sidenoding right now, unkillable, cant kill the enemy, and knocks them off the point using knockbacks. It just had 2 instead of one. Otherwise, fights usually stalled out, as they do now. When that happens with bunkers, its fine. The problem is right now "bunker" just means everyone. For heavens sake, thieves are now effectively bunkers.

[Chaith.8256]

@mortrialus.3062 said:You and Chaith always seem to want;

1. Core Engineer: Jack of All Trades Master of All Trades. Best build in the game do not touch.
2. Holosmith: Jack of All Trades Master of All Trades. Best build in the game do not touch.
3. Scrapper: Jack of All Trades Master of All Trades. Best build in the game do not touch.

After getting called out for grossly exaggerating facts, it seems like you still can't stop. Any trace of objectivity in this thread has bit the dust.

[Shiyo.3578]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:You and Chaith always seem to want;

1. Core Engineer: Jack of All Trades Master of All Trades. Best build in the game do not touch.
2. Holosmith: Jack of All Trades Master of All Trades. Best build in the game do not touch.
3. Scrapper: Jack of All Trades Master of All Trades. Best build in the game do not touch.

After getting called out for grossly exaggerating facts, it seems like you still can't stop. Any trace of objectivity in this thread has bit the dust.

He isn't wrong, though. That's what nearly every engineer player thinks because of how overpowered the class has been since alpha.

[Starbreaker.6507]

Is it me, or does it seem these types of threads have become much more common since the February debacle patch?

Every few days/weeks we get a thread where the general consensus is a profession or, more than likely, its elite spec is overperforming.

Then its mains come in to correct everyone and even try to convince people that it's either in line or even underpowered(!) and then the great circle-jerk ensues.

Can't wait for the next thread to see which profession is the next hotness to bitch about.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@"mortrialus.3062" said:You and Chaith always seem to want;

1. Core Engineer: Jack of All Trades Master of All Trades. Best build in the game do not touch.
2. Holosmith: Jack of All Trades Master of All Trades. Best build in the game do not touch.
3. Scrapper: Jack of All Trades Master of All Trades. Best build in the game do not touch.

After getting called out for grossly exaggerating facts, it seems like you still can't stop. Any trace of objectivity in this thread has bit the dust.

He isn't wrong, though. That's what nearly every engineer player thinks because of how overpowered the class has been since alpha.

He absolutely is wrong, no engineer thinks that, and you think engineer has been "overpowered since alpha"? Did you pay attention in most of that at all? Engineer has been bad more often than it has been good. Were not talking thief or Ele here. Or Rev.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@"mortrialus.3062" said:You and Chaith always seem to want;

1. Core Engineer: Jack of All Trades Master of All Trades. Best build in the game do not touch.
2. Holosmith: Jack of All Trades Master of All Trades. Best build in the game do not touch.
3. Scrapper: Jack of All Trades Master of All Trades. Best build in the game do not touch.

After getting called out for grossly exaggerating facts, it seems like you still can't stop. Any trace of objectivity in this thread has bit the dust.

You aren't the arbiter of objectivity nor are you a beacon of it. I've never seen you make any contribution to a thread about Scrapper or Holosmith when the two have over performed that ultimately didn't boil down to "We can't change anything that's causing problems. We also need to buff core engineer."

[mortrialus.3062]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@"mortrialus.3062" said:You and Chaith always seem to want;

1. Core Engineer: Jack of All Trades Master of All Trades. Best build in the game do not touch.
2. Holosmith: Jack of All Trades Master of All Trades. Best build in the game do not touch.
3. Scrapper: Jack of All Trades Master of All Trades. Best build in the game do not touch.

After getting called out for grossly exaggerating facts, it seems like you still can't stop. Any trace of objectivity in this thread has bit the dust.

He isn't wrong, though. That's what nearly every engineer player thinks because of how overpowered the class has been since alpha.

He absolutely is wrong, no engineer thinks that, and you think engineer has been "overpowered since alpha"? Did you pay attention in most of that at all? Engineer has been bad more often than it has been good. Were not talking thief or Ele here. Or Rev.

Your only contribution to this thread is "Holo will be fine if we just roll back the megabalance" a change that is literally never ever going to happen and also ignores that Holo's mix of super high damage and and no limiters for it's above and beyond capacity for sustain with zero stat investment has been a problem throughout the entire history of the spec.

https://clips.twitch.tv/PluckyImportantSandstormArsonNoSexy

You've also said Holosmtih sucked at MATs. While it's true it didn't have the omnipresence of Scourge, Firebrand, and Herald during PoF it's still had plenty of MAT wins under it's belt. And unlike you I don't hesitate to point out when variants of mesmer are over performing or just toxic in general to the point of frequently butting heads with other mesmer mains about this stuff.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/81789/we-need-emergency-nerfshttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1112123#Comment_1112123https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/470034/#Comment_470034https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1151380/#Comment_1151380

Meanwhile you and Chaith have done nothing but stonewall discussion in this thread, aside from you just saying "Undo megabalance" and chaith giving a vague "It could use a sustain trim". So my description, blunt and snarky, I feel is an accurate if flippant description of how you two behave in any thread about when any engineer spec is over performing.