Holosmith: It only does EVERYTHING

[mortrialus.3062]

@"UNOwen.7132" said:Its odd that you talk about Holosmiths utilities as if theyre incredibly amazing when the current meta holosmith doesnt run a single holosmith utility. Theyre worse than core utilities. So already we can cut more than half of your "what Holosmith provides" bullet points. The truth is that people severely overestimate Holosmith. Yes, it provides more damage than base Engineer thanks to enhanced heat capacity unit, and yes, you get a free mediocre kit in the form of photon forge. But that is, simply put, not that much.

As for your suggestion, lets reword it. "Lets make Holosmith unplayable in PvP". Its only slightly ahead of core engineer, so a nerf this massive, well lets just say it chronos the spec. It also is just poorly thought out. The problem with Holo right now isnt Holo itself. Its that as a result of the catastrophic february 25 patch, damage is far too low. Holosmith is not actually very tanky in a vacuum. But damage is so low even a glass cannon like Holosmith is unkillable, despite actually providing close to no sustain or defense at all (seriously, its got Heat Therapy, which is an average 50-100 healing per second. Thats just ... not much).

Elixir H would go from healing for 6020 to 4560. Good Holos could still make that work, it'll just be harder.

Plus there's the inherent sustain of the Alchemy tree in general. And 100 HPS is effectively 30-50% the HPS of a healing skill. And the Holo utilities are good and have seen plenty of use historically, if grenade kit and Elixir U weren't meta it would probably be Spectrum Shield and Hard Light Arena.

Holosmith should be the type of build that really benefits from the presence of a dedicated support like PoF Scourge and Power Herald did. It shouldn't be this super self sufficient jack of all trades master of all trades monster that can do everything and is as easy to play as they come on top of being extremely safe because of it's very high sustain and reliable access stealth. It should have weaknesses in the fundamental capability of the spec unique from core engineer's and scrapper. And if it gets more damage snd mobility, which it does, the obvious hole in it's capabilities should be is it's sustain.

This was a problem with Holosmith all throughout PoF, it isn't new to the megabalance. Remember pre-megabalance Holosmith had even higher damage then it does now on top of absurd levels of sustain, being able to easily get 8-11k healing every 20 seconds from healing turret before the cooldown adjustment.

[Noah Salazar.5430]

damage it has consistently muscled scrapper out of the meta

what? Scrapper is much stronger than holo in pvp/wvw right now

both in roaming, same as in zergs and same in pvp

Holo is more of pve spec, but you can use it as pvp too

Holosmith should suffer a -25-33% healing penalty for taking that elite spec.

take weapon rune that provid you poison if you don't have acces to it

In Holosmith's case in specific, it should be pulling defense and healing to add to damage and mobility, rather than just overlaying everything Holo has to offer on top of core engineer and calling it even because of the elite toolbelt skills.

What? Boon coruption? root? condi dmg? not killing him while 8s aed? CC cuz 0 stab boon, only on Elixir U?

Elixir H would go from healing for 6020 to 4560. Good Holos could still make that work, it'll just be harder.

Not better than use Aed who heal you for 4300 or 12k if ppl rush your hp down? and on top of that removing evry condi?

Scrapper being the super defensive variant.

What? you kidding me? you played even Scrapper once correct? Whats your rank diamond?

Also why most of you thinking only from 1vs1 perspective wher pvp/wvw is team oriented...

[mortrialus.3062]

@"Noah Salazar.5430" said:

damage it has consistently muscled scrapper out of the meta

what? Scrapper is much stronger than holo in pvp/wvw right nowHolo is more of pve spec, but you can use it as pvp too

What universe are you living in where Holos aren't consistently 20-40% of ranked representation and weren't on close to every single MotA team?

Last MAT every team TeaPot spectated including both finalists had Holos. Not scrappers.

[Koen.1327]

pls change toss s to smoke pulsing blind big nerf

[UNOwen.7132]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"UNOwen.7132" said:Its odd that you talk about Holosmiths utilities as if theyre incredibly amazing when the current meta holosmith doesnt run a

single

holosmith utility. Theyre worse than core utilities. So already we can cut more than half of your "what Holosmith provides" bullet points. The truth is that people

severely

overestimate Holosmith. Yes, it provides more damage than base Engineer thanks to enhanced heat capacity unit, and yes, you get a free mediocre kit in the form of photon forge. But that is, simply put, not that much.

As for your suggestion, lets reword it. "Lets make Holosmith unplayable in PvP". Its only slightly ahead of core engineer, so a nerf this massive, well lets just say it chronos the spec. It also is just poorly thought out. The problem with Holo right now isnt Holo itself. Its that as a result of the catastrophic february 25 patch, damage is far too low. Holosmith is not actually very tanky in a vacuum. But damage is so low even a glass cannon like Holosmith is unkillable, despite actually providing close to no sustain or defense at all (seriously, its got Heat Therapy, which is an average 50-100 healing per second. Thats just ... not much).

Elixir H would go from healing for 6020 to 4560. Good Holos could still make that work, it'll just be harder.

Your math is off. It would go to 4515 at 25%, and below that at 33%. Thats a lot. You could make it work, but at that point, why would I ever bother playing Holo over Scrapper or Core?

Plus there's the inherent sustain of the Alchemy tree in general. And 100 HPS is effectively 30-50% the HPS of a healing skill. And the Holo utilities are good and have seen plenty of use historically, if grenade kit and Elixir U weren't meta it would probably be Spectrum Shield and Hard Light Arena.

Which youre also hitting, and also isnt that much. And Core Engineer has as well. And remember, I said 50-100. Its closer to 50, and its not a burst heal like healing skills, and something that isnt terribly controlable. The Holo utilities were good. They all got nerfed, one way or another, and now arent good. And no, if Grenade Kit and Elixir U somehow werent meta, would just see other kits or elixirs slotted in. Or Gadgets. We would not see Exceed utilities.

Holosmith should be the type of build that really benefits from the presence of a dedicated support like PoF Scourge and Power Herald did. It shouldn't be this super self sufficient jack of all trades master of all trades monster that can do everything and is as easy to play as they come on top of being extremely safe because of it's very high sustain and reliable access stealth. It should have weaknesses in the fundamental capability of the spec unique from core engineer's and scrapper. And if it gets more damage snd mobility, which it does, the obvious hole in it's capabilities should be is it's sustain.

Holosmith is supposed to be a sidenoding bruiser. It requiring a dedicated support makes absolutely no sense. You also severely overestimate how easy it is to play (its still an Engineer, and you do need to juggle heat properly), and its sustain is nothing special. Its safe because right now everyone is safe. Damage is too low, so no one ever dies in a 1v1, not even the glass holo. Also its "reliable stealth access" is a 45 second cooldown 3 second stealth, that while less bad when used in-combat than thief stealth, still aint great. They can still hit ya.

This was a problem with Holosmith all throughout PoF, it isn't new to the megabalance. Remember pre-megabalance Holosmith had even higher damage then it does now on top of absurd levels of sustain, being able to easily get 8-11k healing every 20 seconds from healing turret before the cooldown adjustment.

Holosmith wasnt an issue for most of PoF though. And yes, it had higher damage, because pre-patch damage was higher. Duh. The problem is damage is too low right now. Fixing Holo is as simple as putting damage back in the game because its 20-30% below the lowest it has ever been, and as a result the concept of a "bunker" has been rendered meaningless because even a glass cannon is now a bunker.

[Noah Salazar.5430]

Last MAT every team TeaPot spectated including both finalists had Holos. Not scrappers.

Cuz ppl are more experienced on holos, yet scrapper became strong 1-2 months ago

Thay was 5ppl premade, with communication, in that couse Holo culd be more healpfull as just for dmg burst purpuse, while other class def/sup holo, that what was make holo strong

Not couting that, Scrapper is much stronger than Holo, more specific after Beam started doing 0 dmg cuz of cc

[rng.1024]

Imo they just need to up Photon Forge cooldown to 10 seconds (same as shroud) and treat it as a transformation (locking all but weapon skills).

Better yet increase it's damage/heat gain and damage taken by 25% so it's the opposite of necro shroud. Easy logical fix with a built in drawback.

There's no excuse for the specs spammability.

[Shiyo.3578]

@knite.1542 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:Herald is the same thing. Coincidentally, it and holosmith are the two best PvP classes.

@saerni.2584 said:

So maybe make the Holo trade off include -50% to duration of self applied stealth effects. Thematically it makes sense because they glow brightly and balance wise it cuts from their sustain without touching core.

Engineer should lose all access to stealth outside blasting smoke fields.

Thats literally

just

Toss Elixir S. What do you suggest we replace it with?

Toss smoke field.

You want to replace the stealth with a utility that would allow the holosmith to stack even more stealth?Yes, but holo shouldn't have toolbelt skills.

@UNOwen.7132 said:

Holosmith is supposed to be a sidenoding bruiser

Then it needs to lose 33% of it's dps and burst.

[mortrialus.3062]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:Its odd that you talk about Holosmiths utilities as if theyre incredibly amazing when the current meta holosmith doesnt run a

single

holosmith utility. Theyre worse than core utilities. So already we can cut more than half of your "what Holosmith provides" bullet points. The truth is that people

severely

overestimate Holosmith. Yes, it provides more damage than base Engineer thanks to enhanced heat capacity unit, and yes, you get a free mediocre kit in the form of photon forge. But that is, simply put, not that much.

As for your suggestion, lets reword it. "Lets make Holosmith unplayable in PvP". Its only slightly ahead of core engineer, so a nerf this massive, well lets just say it chronos the spec. It also is just poorly thought out. The problem with Holo right now isnt Holo itself. Its that as a result of the catastrophic february 25 patch, damage is far too low. Holosmith is not actually very tanky in a vacuum. But damage is so low even a glass cannon like Holosmith is unkillable, despite actually providing close to no sustain or defense at all (seriously, its got Heat Therapy, which is an average 50-100 healing per second. Thats just ... not much).

Elixir H would go from healing for 6020 to 4560. Good Holos could still make that work, it'll just be harder.

Your math is off. It would go to 4515 at 25%, and below that at 33%. Thats a lot. You could make it work, but at that point, why would I ever bother playing Holo over Scrapper or Core?

You're not counting the regeneration.

Also yeah you can make it work, why you'd play Holo over core and Scrapper is the higher damage Holo would provide. That's the point. There'd be clear strengths and weaknesses. Core would be an allrounder that doesn't necessarily excel but also don't have clear weaknesses. Holo would have high damage and mobility but less sustain. Scrapper would have high support and defense but poor mobility and damage. The reason you'd pick one of them is by making a conscious decision on what you value and what you want to do and what actual strengths and weaknesses you're going to have to pick and choose.

Plus there's the inherent sustain of the Alchemy tree in general. And 100 HPS is effectively 30-50% the HPS of a healing skill. And the Holo utilities are good and have seen plenty of use historically, if grenade kit and Elixir U weren't meta it would probably be Spectrum Shield and Hard Light Arena.

Which youre also hitting, and also isnt that much. And Core Engineer has as well. And remember, I said 50-100. Its closer to 50, and its not a burst heal like healing skills, and something that isnt terribly controlable. The Holo utilities

were

good. They all got nerfed, one way or another, and now

arent

good. And no, if Grenade Kit and Elixir U somehow werent meta, would just see other kits or elixirs slotted in. Or Gadgets. We would not see Exceed utilities.

Holosmith should be the type of build that really benefits from the presence of a dedicated support like PoF Scourge and Power Herald did. It shouldn't be this super self sufficient jack of all trades master of all trades monster that can do everything and is as easy to play as they come on top of being extremely safe because of it's very high sustain and reliable access stealth. It should have weaknesses in the fundamental capability of the spec unique from core engineer's and scrapper. And if it gets more damage snd mobility, which it does, the obvious hole in it's capabilities should be is it's sustain.

This was a problem with Holosmith all throughout PoF, it isn't new to the megabalance. Remember pre-megabalance Holosmith had even higher damage then it does now on top of absurd levels of sustain, being able to easily get 8-11k healing every 20 seconds from healing turret before the cooldown adjustment.

Holosmith wasnt an issue for most of PoF though. And yes, it had higher damage, because pre-patch damage was higher. Duh. The problem is damage is too low right now. Fixing Holo is as simple as putting damage back in the game because its 20-30% below the lowest it has ever been, and as a result the concept of a "bunker" has been rendered meaningless because even a glass cannon is now a bunker.

Holosmith was a nonstop issue throughout Path of Fire as consistently one of the strongest builds in the game, and repeatedly hitting moments where it was THE strongest build in the game. The only time Holosmith wasn't the best Engineer spec was when Scrapper's Gyro rework made it functionally unkillable to anything unless the build could dump 30k power damage within a 2 second stun window. People got legendary on Holo with no weapons equipped. Holo being able to simultaneously rip people apart in seconds and being able to shrug off and then snap from 20% to full health and completely reset the fight every 20 seconds was never not a problem throughout PoF. You undo the megabalance and it'll still be doing that.

Holosmith is supposed to be a sidenoding bruiser. It requiring a dedicated support makes absolutely no sense. You also severely overestimate how easy it is to play (its still an Engineer, and you do need to juggle heat properly), and its sustain is nothing special. Its safe because right now everyone is safe. Damage is too low, so no one ever dies in a 1v1, not even the glass holo. Also its "reliable stealth access" is a 45 second cooldown 3 second stealth, that while less bad when used in-combat than thief stealth, still aint great. They can still hit ya.

Holosmith, a side noder with the AOE damage to carry team fights and the mobility to roam and +1 effectively.

[MyPuppy.8970]

It still lacks a portal and a teleport though.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@knite.1542 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:Herald is the same thing. Coincidentally, it and holosmith are the two best PvP classes.

@saerni.2584 said:

So maybe make the Holo trade off include -50% to duration of self applied stealth effects. Thematically it makes sense because they glow brightly and balance wise it cuts from their sustain without touching core.

Engineer should lose all access to stealth outside blasting smoke fields.

Thats literally

just

Toss Elixir S. What do you suggest we replace it with?

Toss smoke field.

You want to replace the stealth with a utility that would allow the holosmith to stack even more stealth?Yes, but holo shouldn't have toolbelt skills.

Again, if you want that, you need massive buffs to photon forge and Exceed utilities. At that point Holo gives up more than Reaper does. So youd better expect Photon Forge to be better than Reaper's Onslaught Reaper Shroud. Im not sure you want that.

@UNOwen.7132 said:

Holosmith is supposed to be a sidenoding bruiser

Then it needs to lose 33% of it's dps and burst.

Why? Its not like it kills anyone in 1v1s either. Everyone else just needs their damage back. We are far below where it should be.

[Shiyo.3578]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@knite.1542 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:Herald is the same thing. Coincidentally, it and holosmith are the two best PvP classes.

@saerni.2584 said:

So maybe make the Holo trade off include -50% to duration of self applied stealth effects. Thematically it makes sense because they glow brightly and balance wise it cuts from their sustain without touching core.

Engineer should lose all access to stealth outside blasting smoke fields.

Thats literally

just

Toss Elixir S. What do you suggest we replace it with?

Toss smoke field.

You want to replace the stealth with a utility that would allow the holosmith to stack even more stealth?Yes, but holo shouldn't have toolbelt skills.

Again, if you want that, you need

massive

buffs to photon forge and Exceed utilities. At that point Holo gives up more than Reaper does. So youd better expect Photon Forge to be

better

than Reaper's Onslaught Reaper Shroud. Im not sure you want that.

@UNOwen.7132 said:

Holosmith is supposed to be a sidenoding bruiser

Then it needs to lose 33% of it's dps and burst.

Why? Its not like it kills anyone in 1v1s either. Everyone else just needs their damage back. We are far below where it should be.

Have you seen fire weaver and spellbreaker damage? They are also sidenoders.

Forgemode, sword, and holo trait line are more than enough. No buffs needed, sorry.

[Chaith.8256]

@"UNOwen.7132" said:Its odd that you talk about Holosmiths utilities as if theyre incredibly amazing when the current meta holosmith doesnt run a single holosmith utility. Theyre worse than core utilities. So already we can cut more than half of your "what Holosmith provides" bullet points. The truth is that people severely overestimate Holosmith. Yes, it provides more damage than base Engineer thanks to enhanced heat capacity unit, and yes, you get a free mediocre kit in the form of photon forge. But that is, simply put, not that much.

As for your suggestion, lets reword it. "Lets make Holosmith unplayable in PvP". Its only slightly ahead of core engineer, so a nerf this massive, well lets just say it chronos the spec. It also is just poorly thought out. The problem with Holo right now isnt Holo itself. Its that as a result of the catastrophic february 25 patch, damage is far too low. Holosmith is not actually very tanky in a vacuum. But damage is so low even a glass cannon like Holosmith is unkillable, despite actually providing close to no sustain or defense at all (seriously, its got Heat Therapy, which is an average 50-100 healing per second. Thats just ... not much).

I think the truth lies somewhere between your view and the OP's.

You're 100% correct in saying Holosmith utilities are not used at all atm, pure sidegrade/downgrade to core utilites, no idea what OP is talking about there with his 3 bullet points on how good Holo utilities are - OP then goes on to say that Holosmith gains CC through traits, no idea how he justifies talking straight 25% nonsense in his post, I understand how you think he's overestimating Holosmith with some overt hyperbole, cause he is.

However, Holosmith is pretty far ahead of Core Engineer. It's got way more mobility, sustain, and might stacks - core can get this, but not all together. When it comes to Heat Therapy, this trait is a beast. When staying out of Forge it's healing 195 per second between 3-8 seconds, then 390 per second when venting maximum heat. It's very noticeable sustain compared to core.

The mobility Holo gets from master trait & photon Forge is an amazing escape tool. Between super speed escape and Heat Therapy, you basically slap on noticeable sustain and disengage to Core Engi and call it a day.

Only thing about Holo that should be potentially changed is mobility and sustain, ideally take a portion of that sustain and pump it into kits. Multi-kit builds should be the focus of next Engi re-work for sure.

[UNOwen.7132]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:Its odd that you talk about Holosmiths utilities as if theyre incredibly amazing when the current meta holosmith doesnt run a

single

holosmith utility. Theyre worse than core utilities. So already we can cut more than half of your "what Holosmith provides" bullet points. The truth is that people

severely

overestimate Holosmith. Yes, it provides more damage than base Engineer thanks to enhanced heat capacity unit, and yes, you get a free mediocre kit in the form of photon forge. But that is, simply put, not that much.

As for your suggestion, lets reword it. "Lets make Holosmith unplayable in PvP". Its only slightly ahead of core engineer, so a nerf this massive, well lets just say it chronos the spec. It also is just poorly thought out. The problem with Holo right now isnt Holo itself. Its that as a result of the catastrophic february 25 patch, damage is far too low. Holosmith is not actually very tanky in a vacuum. But damage is so low even a glass cannon like Holosmith is unkillable, despite actually providing close to no sustain or defense at all (seriously, its got Heat Therapy, which is an average 50-100 healing per second. Thats just ... not much).

Elixir H would go from healing for 6020 to 4560. Good Holos could still make that work, it'll just be harder.

Your math is off. It would go to 4515 at 25%, and below that at 33%. Thats a lot. You could make it work, but at that point, why would I ever bother playing Holo over Scrapper or Core?

You're not counting the regeneration.

Neither were you? Its a bit more healing, but not like it saves it.

Also yeah you can make it work, why you'd play Holo over core and Scrapper is the higher damage Holo would provide. That's the point. There'd be clear strengths and weaknesses. Core would be an allrounder that doesn't necessarily excel but also don't have clear weaknesses. Holo would have high damage and mobility but less sustain. Scrapper would have high support and defense but poor mobility and damage. The reason you'd pick one of them is by making a conscious decision on what you value and what you want to do and what actual strengths and weaknesses you're going to have to pick and choose.

Once again, simple question. Why? Holo is a sidenoder. More damage is meaningless if you just die anyway. Like, this would make sense if you were proposing increasing Holos damage as well. But youre arent. Youre just saying "oh nerf Holos healing by 25%". And Im saying, at that point no one will play Holo. Because you get an insignificant damage boost compared to core, and a massive survivability nerf. Your suggestion would mean Holo still cant kill people in a 1v1, but would be the only sidenoder that can actually die in a 1v1. Thats bad.

Plus there's the inherent sustain of the Alchemy tree in general. And 100 HPS is effectively 30-50% the HPS of a healing skill. And the Holo utilities are good and have seen plenty of use historically, if grenade kit and Elixir U weren't meta it would probably be Spectrum Shield and Hard Light Arena.

Which youre also hitting, and also isnt that much. And Core Engineer has as well. And remember, I said 50-100. Its closer to 50, and its not a burst heal like healing skills, and something that isnt terribly controlable. The Holo utilities

were

good. They all got nerfed, one way or another, and now

arent

good. And no, if Grenade Kit and Elixir U somehow werent meta, would just see other kits or elixirs slotted in. Or Gadgets. We would not see Exceed utilities.

Holosmith should be the type of build that really benefits from the presence of a dedicated support like PoF Scourge and Power Herald did. It shouldn't be this super self sufficient jack of all trades master of all trades monster that can do everything and is as easy to play as they come on top of being extremely safe because of it's very high sustain and reliable access stealth. It should have weaknesses in the fundamental capability of the spec unique from core engineer's and scrapper. And if it gets more damage snd mobility, which it does, the obvious hole in it's capabilities should be is it's sustain.

This was a problem with Holosmith all throughout PoF, it isn't new to the megabalance. Remember pre-megabalance Holosmith had even higher damage then it does now on top of absurd levels of sustain, being able to easily get 8-11k healing every 20 seconds from healing turret before the cooldown adjustment.

Holosmith wasnt an issue for most of PoF though. And yes, it had higher damage, because pre-patch damage was higher. Duh. The problem is damage is too low right now. Fixing Holo is as simple as putting damage back in the game because its 20-30% below the lowest it has ever been, and as a result the concept of a "bunker" has been rendered meaningless because even a glass cannon is now a bunker.

Holosmith was a nonstop issue throughout Path of Fire as consistently one of the strongest builds in the game, and repeatedly hitting moments where it was THE strongest build in the game. The only time Holosmith wasn't the best Engineer spec was when Scrapper's Gyro rework made it functionally unkillable to anything unless the build could dump 30k power damage within a 2 second stun window. People got legendary on Holo with no weapons equipped. Holo being able to simultaneously rip people apart in seconds and being able to shrug off and then snap from 20% to full health and completely reset the fight every 20 seconds was never not a problem throughout PoF. You undo the megabalance and it'll still be doing that.

Yeah, like it was pre-patch, where in the MAT, the average team contained checking notes 0 Holosmiths? Yes, it was always the best engineer spec, but that doesnt say much when core engineer and scrapper were just garbage. However, the truth is that Holo was a lot like spellbreaker. A spec that fell in and out of the meta a lot. Broken at times, barely played at others. An actual issue it was rarely. At the start, and the brief prot holo period, yes, but besides those 2, we still had many, many months were it was just a good spec.

Holosmith is supposed to be a sidenoding bruiser. It requiring a dedicated support makes absolutely no sense. You also severely overestimate how easy it is to play (its still an Engineer, and you do need to juggle heat properly), and its sustain is nothing special. Its safe because right now

everyone

is safe. Damage is too low, so no one ever dies in a 1v1, not even the glass holo. Also its "reliable stealth access" is a 45 second cooldown 3 second stealth, that while less bad when used in-combat than thief stealth, still aint great. They can still hit ya.

Holosmith, a side noder with the AOE damage to carry team fights and the mobility to roam and +1 effectively.

Holo got AoE damage, but idk about "carrying teamfights". Their AoEs aint that big. Unless the enemy intentionally clusters, youll not hit more than 1 or 2. Were not talking scourge here. Also, fun fact: You could say the same thing about condi rev. Or condi Ranger probably (Which isnt even good). Or funny enough, Core Grenade Engineer.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@knite.1542 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:Herald is the same thing. Coincidentally, it and holosmith are the two best PvP classes.

@saerni.2584 said:

So maybe make the Holo trade off include -50% to duration of self applied stealth effects. Thematically it makes sense because they glow brightly and balance wise it cuts from their sustain without touching core.

Engineer should lose all access to stealth outside blasting smoke fields.

Thats literally

just

Toss Elixir S. What do you suggest we replace it with?

Toss smoke field.

You want to replace the stealth with a utility that would allow the holosmith to stack even more stealth?Yes, but holo shouldn't have toolbelt skills.

Again, if you want that, you need

massive

buffs to photon forge and Exceed utilities. At that point Holo gives up more than Reaper does. So youd better expect Photon Forge to be

better

than Reaper's Onslaught Reaper Shroud. Im not sure you want that.

@UNOwen.7132 said:

Holosmith is supposed to be a sidenoding bruiser

Then it needs to lose 33% of it's dps and burst.

Why? Its not like it kills anyone in 1v1s either. Everyone else just needs their damage back. We are far below where it should be.

Have you seen fire weaver and spellbreaker damage? They are also sidenoders.

Spellbreaker is unplayable. Fire Weaver isnt good. Not a good point to bring up. And the problem is that sidenoders just lack damage right now. Its why sidenoding has devolved into knockbacks.

Forgemode, sword, and holo trait line are more than enough. No buffs needed, sorry.

Hahahahahaha. Oh wait, youre serious? Let me laugh even harder. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Buffs are absolutely needed. If you just took away toolbelt skills without any compensation, Holo would be the single worst elite spec that ever existed in the game. Worse than Berserker. Worse than Druid. Worse than Chrono. And it wouldnt even be close, compared to your suggestion Chrono seems like release spellbreaker. No, as I said, that kind of nerf needs massive buffs. Straight up turning Photon Forge more powerful than Reapers Shroud seems like a bare minimum.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@"UNOwen.7132" said:Its odd that you talk about Holosmiths utilities as if theyre incredibly amazing when the current meta holosmith doesnt run a

single

holosmith utility. Theyre worse than core utilities. So already we can cut more than half of your "what Holosmith provides" bullet points. The truth is that people

severely

overestimate Holosmith. Yes, it provides more damage than base Engineer thanks to enhanced heat capacity unit, and yes, you get a free mediocre kit in the form of photon forge. But that is, simply put, not that much.

As for your suggestion, lets reword it. "Lets make Holosmith unplayable in PvP". Its only slightly ahead of core engineer, so a nerf this massive, well lets just say it chronos the spec. It also is just poorly thought out. The problem with Holo right now isnt Holo itself. Its that as a result of the catastrophic february 25 patch, damage is far too low. Holosmith is not actually very tanky in a vacuum. But damage is so low even a glass cannon like Holosmith is unkillable, despite actually providing close to no sustain or defense at all (seriously, its got Heat Therapy, which is an average 50-100 healing per second. Thats just ... not much).

I think the truth lies somewhere between your view and the OP's.

You're 100% correct in saying Holosmith utilities are not used at all atm, pure sidegrade/downgrade to core utilites, no idea what OP is talking about there with his 3 bullet points on how good Holo utilities are - OP then goes on to say that Holosmith gains CC through traits, no idea how he justifies talking straight 25% nonsense in his post, I understand how you think he's overestimating Holosmith with some overt hyperbole, cause he is.

However, Holosmith is pretty far ahead of Core Engineer. It's got way more mobility, sustain, and might stacks. When it comes to Heat Therapy, this trait is a beast. When staying out of Forge it's healing 195 per second between 3-8 seconds, then 390 per second when venting maximum heat. It's very noticeable sustain compared to core.

Eh, surprisingly mobility isnt that big of a different. Holo got the leap from, well, holo leap. But perma-swiftness is something Core Engineer got as well. As for Heat Therapy, the problem is that while its potential healing is high, if you consider the fact that you are a minimum of 5 seconds in Forge (or was it 6) and you rarely want to let it heat down to the second stage since that means losing might and damage, it ends up being a lot less than that. Its decent sustain, but the majority is still the healing skill.

The mobility Holo gets from master trait & photon Forge is an amazing escape tool. Between super speed escape and Heat Therapy, you basically slap on noticeable sustain and disengage to Core Engi and call it a day.

Honestly, escaping is another thing I didnt feel like core engineer lacked. Jump Shot is actually good for that if youre in the right position, and if you really need it, you got superspeed options in core as well. The main difference I felt was just the fact that Holo had way better might generation.

Only thing about Holo that should be potentially changed is mobility and sustain, ideally take a portion of that sustain and pump it into kits. Multi-kit builds should be the focus of next Engi re-work for sure.

Id just like if Core Engineer had a power mainhand weapon. Shield is really good, but you cant use it as a core engineer because pistol sucks. Though I also wouldnt mind if some of the kits were made better/more active, like elixir gun or flamethrower.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@"UNOwen.7132" said:Its odd that you talk about Holosmiths utilities as if theyre incredibly amazing when the current meta holosmith doesnt run a

single

holosmith utility. Theyre worse than core utilities. So already we can cut more than half of your "what Holosmith provides" bullet points. The truth is that people

severely

overestimate Holosmith. Yes, it provides more damage than base Engineer thanks to enhanced heat capacity unit, and yes, you get a free mediocre kit in the form of photon forge. But that is, simply put, not that much.

As for your suggestion, lets reword it. "Lets make Holosmith unplayable in PvP". Its only slightly ahead of core engineer, so a nerf this massive, well lets just say it chronos the spec. It also is just poorly thought out. The problem with Holo right now isnt Holo itself. Its that as a result of the catastrophic february 25 patch, damage is far too low. Holosmith is not actually very tanky in a vacuum. But damage is so low even a glass cannon like Holosmith is unkillable, despite actually providing close to no sustain or defense at all (seriously, its got Heat Therapy, which is an average 50-100 healing per second. Thats just ... not much).

I think the truth lies somewhere between your view and the OP's.

You're 100% correct in saying Holosmith utilities are not used at all atm, pure sidegrade/downgrade to core utilites, no idea what OP is talking about there with his 3 bullet points on how good Holo utilities are - OP then goes on to say that Holosmith gains CC through traits, no idea how he justifies talking straight 25% nonsense in his post, I understand how you think he's overestimating Holosmith with some overt hyperbole, cause he is.

However, Holosmith is pretty far ahead of Core Engineer. It's got way more mobility, sustain, and might stacks. When it comes to Heat Therapy, this trait is a beast. When staying out of Forge it's healing 195 per second between 3-8 seconds, then 390 per second when venting maximum heat. It's very noticeable sustain compared to core.

The mobility Holo gets from master trait & photon Forge is an amazing escape tool. Between super speed escape and Heat Therapy, you basically slap on noticeable sustain and disengage to Core Engi and call it a day.

Only thing about Holo that should be potentially changed is mobility and sustain, ideally take a portion of that sustain and pump it into kits. Multi-kit builds should be the focus of next Engi re-work for sure.

Most of the Exceeds have seen plenty of use historically, even if it's currently meta to run Grenade Kit, Elixir U and Elixir S. Photon Wall has seen plenty of historic use, Spectrum Shield and Hard Light Arena have seen plenty of use. It's not like we're talking about Distracting Daggers, Impairing Daggers or Crystal Sands that are just 100% unused in PvP. My point is that not only does Holosmith enhance the engineer's capacity for damage and mobility beyond what core is capable of, but also sustain and defense in ways the spec simply shouldn't be doing, regardless of whether the Exceeds, which do see use, are currently meta at this exact moment.

[Chaith.8256]

@UNOwen.7132 said:Honestly, escaping is another thing I didnt feel like core engineer lacked. Jump Shot is actually good for that if youre in the right position, and if you really need it, you got superspeed options in core as well. The main difference I felt was just the fact that Holo had way better might generation.

Take the Holosmith nade build, unequip Holosmith, and add firearms with Sanguine Array. You now have Holosmith might stacks as a passive when you land your Shrapnel nades. Core has the might access, just most people don't know.

To get disengage as Core you pay for it, big time. Like having to use a Rifle as your weapon, or blow some utility slots on superspeed and still have nowhere near the superspeed and distance leaped as a Holosmith's F5 kit.

[UNOwen.7132]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@"UNOwen.7132" said:Its odd that you talk about Holosmiths utilities as if theyre incredibly amazing when the current meta holosmith doesnt run a

single

holosmith utility. Theyre worse than core utilities. So already we can cut more than half of your "what Holosmith provides" bullet points. The truth is that people

severely

overestimate Holosmith. Yes, it provides more damage than base Engineer thanks to enhanced heat capacity unit, and yes, you get a free mediocre kit in the form of photon forge. But that is, simply put, not that much.

As for your suggestion, lets reword it. "Lets make Holosmith unplayable in PvP". Its only slightly ahead of core engineer, so a nerf this massive, well lets just say it chronos the spec. It also is just poorly thought out. The problem with Holo right now isnt Holo itself. Its that as a result of the catastrophic february 25 patch, damage is far too low. Holosmith is not actually very tanky in a vacuum. But damage is so low even a glass cannon like Holosmith is unkillable, despite actually providing close to no sustain or defense at all (seriously, its got Heat Therapy, which is an average 50-100 healing per second. Thats just ... not much).

I think the truth lies somewhere between your view and the OP's.

You're 100% correct in saying Holosmith utilities are not used at all atm, pure sidegrade/downgrade to core utilites, no idea what OP is talking about there with his 3 bullet points on how good Holo utilities are - OP then goes on to say that Holosmith gains CC through traits, no idea how he justifies talking straight 25% nonsense in his post, I understand how you think he's overestimating Holosmith with some overt hyperbole, cause he is.

However, Holosmith is pretty far ahead of Core Engineer. It's got way more mobility, sustain, and might stacks. When it comes to Heat Therapy, this trait is a beast. When staying out of Forge it's healing 195 per second between 3-8 seconds, then 390 per second when venting maximum heat. It's very noticeable sustain compared to core.

The mobility Holo gets from master trait & photon Forge is an amazing escape tool. Between super speed escape and Heat Therapy, you basically slap on noticeable sustain and disengage to Core Engi and call it a day.

Only thing about Holo that should be potentially changed is mobility and sustain, ideally take a portion of that sustain and pump it into kits. Multi-kit builds should be the focus of next Engi re-work for sure.

Most of the Exceeds have seen plenty of use historically, even if it's currently meta to run Grenade Kit, Elixir U and Elixir S. Photon Wall has seen plenty of historic use, Spectrum Shield and Hard Light Arena have seen plenty of use. It's not like we're talking about Distracting Daggers, Impairing Daggers or Crystal Sands that are just 100% unused in PvP. My point is that not only does Holosmith enhance the engineer's capacity for damage and mobility beyond what core is capable of, but also sustain and defense in ways the spec simply shouldn't be doing, regardless of whether the Exceeds, which do see use, are currently meta at this exact moment.

Just because something saw use before, doesnt mean its still good. Druid saw a lot of use before. Spellbreaker saw a lot of use before. Scrapper saw a lot of use before. Theyre all not good anymore. As are the Exceed skills. They got nerfed, and now theyre just downgrades to core skills.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:Honestly, escaping is another thing I didnt feel like core engineer lacked. Jump Shot is actually good for that if youre in the right position, and if you really need it, you got superspeed options in core as well. The main difference I felt was just the fact that Holo had way better might generation.

Take the Holosmith nade build, unequip Holosmith, and add firearms with Sanguine Array. You now have Holosmith might stacks as a passive when you land your Shrapnel nades. Core has the might access, just most people don't know.

I tried that, but I found Tools to be a more useful traitline, because outside of sanguine array Firearms just sucks as a traitline. No Scope is ok, but then you have to take modified ammunition which in a 1v1 scenario just aint good, and the minor skills suck. Firearms needs a rework.

To get disengage as Core you pay for it, big time. Like having to use a Rifle as your weapon, or blow some utility slots on superspeed and still have nowhere near the superspeed and distance leaped as a Holosmith's F5 kit.

You kinda have to use rifle anyway. Itd be a different story if we had a good mainhand power weapon, but sadly we dont. As for superspeed, Elixir U is a good option anyway, and Slick Shoes arent the worst if youre trying a gadgeteer build.

[Chaith.8256]

@UNOwen.7132 said:Just because something saw use before, doesnt mean its still good. Druid saw a lot of use before. Spellbreaker saw a lot of use before. Scrapper saw a lot of use before. Theyre all not good anymore. As are the Exceed skills. They got nerfed, and now theyre just downgrades to core skills.

It's messed up somebody had to even say this... It's cool if someone is desperate for bullet points, just leave all historical versions of skills out.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Chaith.8256 said:Only thing about Holo that should be potentially changed is mobility and sustain, ideally take a portion of that sustain and pump it into kits. Multi-kit builds should be the focus of next Engi re-work for sure.

^ Completely agree with that.

[mortrialus.3062]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:Its odd that you talk about Holosmiths utilities as if theyre incredibly amazing when the current meta holosmith doesnt run a

single

holosmith utility. Theyre worse than core utilities. So already we can cut more than half of your "what Holosmith provides" bullet points. The truth is that people

severely

overestimate Holosmith. Yes, it provides more damage than base Engineer thanks to enhanced heat capacity unit, and yes, you get a free mediocre kit in the form of photon forge. But that is, simply put, not that much.

As for your suggestion, lets reword it. "Lets make Holosmith unplayable in PvP". Its only slightly ahead of core engineer, so a nerf this massive, well lets just say it chronos the spec. It also is just poorly thought out. The problem with Holo right now isnt Holo itself. Its that as a result of the catastrophic february 25 patch, damage is far too low. Holosmith is not actually very tanky in a vacuum. But damage is so low even a glass cannon like Holosmith is unkillable, despite actually providing close to no sustain or defense at all (seriously, its got Heat Therapy, which is an average 50-100 healing per second. Thats just ... not much).

I think the truth lies somewhere between your view and the OP's.

You're 100% correct in saying Holosmith utilities are not used at all atm, pure sidegrade/downgrade to core utilites, no idea what OP is talking about there with his 3 bullet points on how good Holo utilities are - OP then goes on to say that Holosmith gains CC through traits, no idea how he justifies talking straight 25% nonsense in his post, I understand how you think he's overestimating Holosmith with some overt hyperbole, cause he is.

However, Holosmith is pretty far ahead of Core Engineer. It's got way more mobility, sustain, and might stacks. When it comes to Heat Therapy, this trait is a beast. When staying out of Forge it's healing 195 per second between 3-8 seconds, then 390 per second when venting maximum heat. It's very noticeable sustain compared to core.

The mobility Holo gets from master trait & photon Forge is an amazing escape tool. Between super speed escape and Heat Therapy, you basically slap on noticeable sustain and disengage to Core Engi and call it a day.

Only thing about Holo that should be potentially changed is mobility and sustain, ideally take a portion of that sustain and pump it into kits. Multi-kit builds should be the focus of next Engi re-work for sure.

Most of the Exceeds have seen plenty of use historically, even if it's currently meta to run Grenade Kit, Elixir U and Elixir S. Photon Wall has seen plenty of historic use, Spectrum Shield and Hard Light Arena have seen plenty of use. It's not like we're talking about Distracting Daggers, Impairing Daggers or Crystal Sands that are just 100% unused in PvP. My point is that not only does Holosmith enhance the engineer's capacity for damage and mobility beyond what core is capable of, but also sustain and defense in ways the spec simply shouldn't be doing, regardless of whether the Exceeds, which do see use, are currently meta at this exact moment.

Just because something saw use

before

, doesnt mean its still good. Druid saw a lot of use before. Spellbreaker saw a lot of use before. Scrapper saw a lot of use before. Theyre all not good anymore. As are the Exceed skills. They got nerfed, and now theyre just downgrades to core skills.

The point isn't that exceeds should be bad. The point is that exceeds shouldn't be defensively orientated, especially with how they can and have stacked with Core Engineer's existing defenses to make something even more defensive than core engineer on top of more damage, mobility, and healing. And just because something else is currently better doesn't mean the meta won't shift in a way where they see more play. The exceeds are still usable, we aren't talking about Druid Glyphs or Crystal Sands level bad here.

I never had a problem with, for example, Prime Light Beam. The only change I wanted to see on it before the megabalance was to add self reveal to the holosmith so that they can't blowout people with zero warning from stealth and I'm 100% in favor of adding the damage back to that skill. That's the frame work the exceeds should be operating under; high impact offensive skills with more potent effects at high heat. Not defensive skills that can be layered on top of core engineer's defensive utilities on top of all the damage, mobility, and sustain holosmith provides.

[Noah Salazar.5430]

Culd you show your ranks while you propose any changes in pvp?

In diferent divisions, thinks are strong difrently

Here is my opinion that Scrapper is much stronger than Holo in that division

And that rank i hited with Scrapper while i played soloi was around 1355-1400 2 sezons in row with 55-60% win ratio

I don't think that holo have too much survability or dmg, and wuld more say that holo more strugling compare to other full condi class or comps, as his moves are ez predictable, same most animations have big showing what Holo will do, yet Holo got much weaknes to cc and his mortal shots can be ez reflected or blocked

What i wuld nerf more was Condi soulbeast/druids, that got 2 stealth, can pinpoint you to one location until you kill a root have hard to see throwed torth, who instantly giving you alot fire, yet after you used your condi cleanse, he just weapon swap to put tons of posion and bleeding, yet himself got alot of Touchnes with acces to long time protetion boon, whos he heal himself evry time he got that boon and pet whos doing dmg as well, or his pet can ress him, or finish you off even if his downed(not that i got problem with it druids, soulbeast got hight weaknes too cc, and you can eazly burst thay hp down, but in that division, i need help team with condi cleanse/offheal more oftean or thay just die on my eyes)

[Kodama.6453]

@Shiyo.3578 said:Forgemode, sword, and holo trait line are more than enough. No buffs needed, sorry.

I am just glad that this suggestion will never get taken seriously.Engineer, including the holosmith elite spec, is way too dependant on the toolbelt for this to ever be an option.

Sorry, but this is definitely never going to happen.