Writ of Persistence nerf took the rest of our damage and everyone will run now bunker builds

[Buran.3796]

@Obtena.7952 said:

Seems like a very reasonable way to fix what you recognized was the truth about symbols.

...But what really did was deleting the Firebrand from PvP. Both core and DH are way stronger than FB now.

[Obtena.7952]

@Buran.3796 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

Seems like a very reasonable way to fix what you recognized was the truth about symbols.

...But what really did was deleting the Firebrand from PvP. Both core and DH are way stronger than FB now.

Yeah ... that happens all the time. What else were you expecting? That's how the meta changes in a game like this.

[Buran.3796]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Buran.3796 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

Seems like a very reasonable way to fix what you recognized was the truth about symbols.

...But what really did was deleting the Firebrand from PvP. Both core and DH are way stronger than FB now.

Yeah ... that happens all the time. What else were you expecting? That's how the meta changes in a game like this.

I was expecting that ANet made honor to their word of releasing balance patches more oftenly (instead one each 3-4 moths as usual) so if a class is removed from PvP due inferiority the ban doesn't last 6-12 months as happens currently. I don't expect from a class to be good at all roles (dps, +1/roaming, support, tank... ) but if between core and 2 specs it fails to be decent at any role... That's not fair for the players.

Also, the meta didn't change since February: it remains the same, is just that progressive shaves in sustain, support and damage to Guardian (and specifically Firebrand) pushed out the class replaced for others "not as bad". Firebrand moved from being able to chose amulet to be forced to use at least 500 healing power to work, to need 1000 to "don't bother, doesn't work anymore, please swap class or leave the match". This is not a MOBA with 100+ characters which need seasonal rotations... I mean: I don't main Guardian as before HoT, but when I play the class I use mostly either power DH or burn DH, and with Firebrand (which is arguably weaker in competitive game modes), I never use mantras due how poorly they perform. Firebrand has an amazing imaginery (visuals, sounds, skills) design which is now entirely wasted because how weak it feels...

[Obtena.7952]

Some things are not good in PVP ... fair or not, that what should be expected because no amount of balancing ever changes that. It's been this way for 8 years ... why would anyone expect anything BUT that?

[Buran.3796]

@Obtena.7952 said:Some things are not good in PVP ... fair or not, that what should be expected because no amount of balancing ever changes that. It's been this way for 8 years ... why would anyone expect anything BUT that?

Well, Arenanet told us that the reason of the large February patch which entirely revamped how the damage, cc and sustain worked in PvP was to put the things in line to a larger support to the balance and the game mode in the form of more often and consistent pace of patches. So players of course expected that. And then ANet turned the previous glacial pace into something even slower...

And by the way, is not only PvP or WvW (WvW didn't have propper support since the HoT release): if you take a look at PvE, becomes evident that the developement of content for GW2 freezed: not only new playable content but also minor patches and fixes.

[Obtena.7952]

@Buran.3796 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Some things are not good in PVP ... fair or not, that what should be expected because no amount of balancing ever changes that. It's been this way for 8 years ... why would anyone expect anything BUT that?

Well, Arenanet told us that the reason of the large February patch which entirely revamped how the damage, cc and sustain worked in PvP was to put the things in line to a larger support to the balance and the game mode in the form of more often and consistent pace of patches. So players of course expected that. And then ANet turned the previous glacial pace into something even slower...

I mean, I don't know if you have looked around since February, but there IS a global pandemic raging ... yes, how unreasonable that Anet has slowed down since then.

[Buran.3796]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Buran.3796 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Some things are not good in PVP ... fair or not, that what should be expected because no amount of balancing ever changes that. It's been this way for 8 years ... why would anyone expect anything BUT that?

Well, Arenanet told us that the reason of the large February patch which entirely revamped how the damage, cc and sustain worked in PvP was to put the things in line to a larger support to the balance and the game mode in the form of more often and consistent pace of patches. So players of course expected that. And then ANet turned the previous glacial pace into something even slower...

I mean, I don't know if you have looked around since February, but there IS a global pandemic raging ... yes, how

unreasonable

that Anet has slowed down since then.

We are talking about programming. Yes, the pandemic had repercussions for the developers, as temporaly delaying the audio of the living story episodes. No, I don't think that the covid-19 had any causality in how slowly the balance patches has turned out, or how they are being unable to honor they words. Programming is one of the jobs best suited to adapt to an environment of home lockdown, remote work and videoconferencing.

[Obtena.7952]

@Buran.3796 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Buran.3796 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Some things are not good in PVP ... fair or not, that what should be expected because no amount of balancing ever changes that. It's been this way for 8 years ... why would anyone expect anything BUT that?

Well, Arenanet told us that the reason of the large February patch which entirely revamped how the damage, cc and sustain worked in PvP was to put the things in line to a larger support to the balance and the game mode in the form of more often and consistent pace of patches. So players of course expected that. And then ANet turned the previous glacial pace into something even slower...

I mean, I don't know if you have looked around since February, but there IS a global pandemic raging ... yes, how

unreasonable

that Anet has slowed down since then.

We are talking about programming. Yes, the pandemic had repercussions for the developers, as temporaly delaying the audio of the living story episodes. No, I don't think that the covid-19 had any causality in how slowly the balance patches has turned out, or how they are being unable to honor they words. Programming is one of the jobs best suited to adapt to an environment of home lockdown, remote work and videoconferencing.

Let's make it clear here. No amount of balancing ever changes how much of the available skills are good in PVP or not ... at least not the point where all these 'good' builds open up that's for sure. A balance patch comes in ... some things get better, some things get worse. It's always been that way. Maybe you got a legit beef about frequency of balancing (I don't think so but to each their own I guess) but they could release a balance patch every day and it still wouldn't get you 'more good things' in PVP to affect the things you are talking about here. That's just a consequence of how the game is designed, not balancing patches.

[otto.5684]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Buran.3796 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

Seems like a very reasonable way to fix what you recognized was the truth about symbols.

...But what really did was deleting the Firebrand from PvP. Both core and DH are way stronger than FB now.

Yeah ... that happens all the time. What else were you expecting? That's how the meta changes in a game like this.

I was expecting, and I know they may sound innovative, competent devs. Too much to ask for? It is not just guardian, spvp right now is a fucking dumpster fire.

[Obtena.7952]

@otto.5684 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Buran.3796 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

Seems like a very reasonable way to fix what you recognized was the truth about symbols.

...But what really did was deleting the Firebrand from PvP. Both core and DH are way stronger than FB now.

Yeah ... that happens all the time. What else were you expecting? That's how the meta changes in a game like this.

I was expecting, and I know they may sound innovative, competent devs. Too much to ask for? It is not just guardian, spvp right now is a kitten dumpster fire.

What is too much to ask for is something that hasn't happened in the last 8 years. I think you know the answer if what you are asking is a reasonable expectation or not based on that. Why would anyone even think more balance changes would result in better balance to begin with? It's certainly not because in the last 8 years, Anet has shown they are balancing to some performance standard. I know you loathe that answer, but it's the correct one.

The reality is this: The number and frequency of balance changes is irrelevant if the player-expectation is some larger-than-typically-experienced range of viable PVP builds. PVP has always been a dumpster fire for lots of builds and the people playing them. This isn't exceptional, it's standard.

[otto.5684]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Buran.3796 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

Seems like a very reasonable way to fix what you recognized was the truth about symbols.

...But what really did was deleting the Firebrand from PvP. Both core and DH are way stronger than FB now.

Yeah ... that happens all the time. What else were you expecting? That's how the meta changes in a game like this.

I was expecting, and I know they may sound innovative, competent devs. Too much to ask for? It is not just guardian, spvp right now is a kitten dumpster fire.

What is too much to ask for is something that hasn't happened in the last 8 years. I think you know the answer if what you are asking is a reasonable expectation or not based on that. Why would anyone even think more balance changes would result in better balance to begin with? It's certainly not because in the last 8 years, Anet has shown they are balancing to some performance standard. I know you loathe that answer, but it's the correct one.

The reality is this: The number and frequency of balance changes is irrelevant if the player-expectation is some larger-than-typically-experienced range of viable PVP builds. PVP has always been a dumpster fire for lots of builds and the people playing them. This isn't exceptional, it's standard.

Not it is not. There has been a clear decline in all aspects of the game over the last 2 years. It is not only in one area. All across the board both quality and quantity has been hit. There has been change in the guard at Anet (at least those who call the shots), and the new people clearly lack the necessary competence.

And no, spvp was not always a dumpster fire. It always had issues, but only past Feb 2020 patch where things clearly went off the rails.

Bottom line is, no you do not understand Anet logic. And yes, there is a decline. Anet devs have been fucking it up and should be told they do. More importantly, Anet makes money out of selling gems. Guess who did spend a dime since PoF release? Yours truly. And I won’t (except next expansion) cuz the quality of content does not deserve any additional money beside entry price.

[Obtena.7952]

Nothing I see happening is different than what has happened over the last 8 years. It's always had it's ebb and flow, better or worse.

Even if you are right and there is a clear decline over the last 2 years ... so be it. That's the reality of LOTS of MMO's in this stage of their lifecycles. I mean, you say you don't even spend a dime since PoF release ... so you aren't exactly part of the solution here are you.

The bottom line is that anyone 'expecting' something not based on the reality of the game is just setting themselves up for disappointment ... EVERY time. EVERY balance patch has resulted in the "WTH were they thinking" moments. This one is no different.

[otto.5684]

@"Obtena.7952" said:Nothing I see happening is different than what has happened over the last 8 years. It's always had it's ebb and flow, better or worse.

Even if you are right and there is a clear decline over the last 2 years ... so be it. That's the reality of LOTS of MMO's in this stage of their lifecycles. I mean, you say you don't even spend a dime since PoF release ... so you aren't exactly part of the solution here are you.

The bottom line is that anyone 'expecting' something not based on the reality of the game is just setting themselves up for disappointment ... EVERY time. EVERY balance patch has resulted in the "WTH were they thinking" moments. This one is no different.

See, me not spending money is the issue for Anet, since I do have the expandable money and I did pre PoF do so. The issue is Anet is failing to deliver good quality content, so I see putting money in the game is rewarding mediocrity.

As for expectations, you are not correct here either. There many patches in the past the improved the game, game play or balance. Sure, no patch is going to satisfy everyone. But I have issue with doing overhauls that Anet clearly lack resources, vision, or both, to complete. Again, the Feb 2020 patch was exactly that. The Ice Brood saga is another example. It started fairly strong, but very quickly fizzled. It was supposed to be an expansion level content, which it clearly was not. Then Anet announced an expansion and started spending siphoning resources from the saga to the expansion, even though they are supposed to be developed in parallel, as they did in the past.

[Obtena.7952]

@otto.5684 said:There many patches in the past the improved the game, game play or balance. Sure, no patch is going to satisfy everyone. But I have issue with doing overhauls that Anet clearly lack resources, vision, or both, to complete.

Yup, that's exactly what I'm talking about ... patches can make things good and bad ... that's how it's been for 8 years. Therefore, your expectation should be inline with that if you don't want to be continually disappointed. How they decide to direct the game with content ... different issue. We are talking about balance here.

[Buran.3796]

@Obtena.7952 said:Nothing I see happening is different than what has happened over the last 8 years. It's always had it's ebb and flow, better or worse.

Even if you are right and there is a clear decline over the last 2 years ... so be it. That's the reality of LOTS of MMO's in this stage of their lifecycles. I mean, you say you don't even spend a dime since PoF release ... so you aren't exactly part of the solution here are you.

Actually, some MMOs improved over time: FF XI/XIV or ESO, albeit I'll conceed that is not the norm. But is not only PvP or WvW, as was said, PvE is also taking a hit in terms of support and direction. ANet ditched dungeons to focus on fractals and then raids and then strikes, but aside from Fractals (which are also affected by this slow pace), the others seems also fading in terms of actualizations.

I think that ANet could give better support to PvP/WvW releasing patches more frequently, and providing new achievements and rewards (as cosmetics) to give them new life until the expansion arrives. I also think that they could revamp dungeons adding the new mechanics from the expansions (unstable magic, new skills for bossses, etc...) adding a harder mode with new rewards and achievements to appeal new players in a time in which more or less ascended gear is the norm. Dungeons weren't killed because they were unfun but because they destroyed the rewards. Firebrand decrease in popularity and usage isn't due has bad mechanics or poor design, but just because they shaved the numbers too much. How can be changing a few numbers each 2-4 weeks so hard to do? Even if they make mistakes, if the pace of changes is high, is easier to nerf overperforming things than having 3-4 months of gap between balance patches.

[Obtena.7952]

@Buran.3796 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Nothing I see happening is different than what has happened over the last 8 years. It's always had it's ebb and flow, better or worse.

Even if you are right and there is a clear decline over the last 2 years ... so be it. That's the reality of LOTS of MMO's in this stage of their lifecycles. I mean, you say you don't even spend a dime since PoF release ... so you aren't exactly part of the solution here are you.

Actually, some MMOs improved over time:

Sure ... but we aren't talking about those ones, we are talking about GW2 ...

I think that ANet could give better support to PvP/WvW releasing patches more frequently, and providing new achievements and rewards (as cosmetics) to give them new life until the expansion arrives. I also think that they could revamp dungeons adding the new mechanics from the expansions (unstable magic, new skills for bossses, etc...) adding a harder mode with new rewards and achievements to appeal new players in a time in which more or less ascended gear is the norm. Dungeons weren't killed because they were unfun but because they destroyed the rewards. Firebrand decrease in popularity and usage isn't due has bad mechanics or poor design, but just because they shaved the numbers too much. How can be changing a few numbers each 2-4 weeks so hard to do? Even if they make mistakes, if the pace of changes is high, is easier to nerf overperforming things than having 3-4 months of gap between balance patches.

Yup, we can think of all kinds of awesome things and imagine how wonderful the results would be. Then we can come off our clouds back to the ground and look at what is real for the last 8 years.

[Buran.3796]

@Obtena.7952 said:

Yup, we can think of all kinds of awesome things and imagine how wonderful the results would be. Then we can come off our clouds back to the ground and look at what is real for the last 8 years.

What happened in the last 8 years is that GW2 had some awesome moments, and some bad ones. The developers which started the game aren't the same that remain, and some choices are clearly been worse than others. Also, what is the reason to have a forum if not to give feedback? Or do you think that ANet goal is to be the next Wildstar? Is not like they have half dozen of other franchises to be able to afford losing the game, as happened to Blizzard with Starcraft II, Diablo III or HotS...

[Obtena.7952]

@Buran.3796 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

Yup, we can think of all kinds of awesome things and imagine how wonderful the results would be. Then we can come off our clouds back to the ground and look at what is real for the last 8 years.

What happened in the last 8 years is that GW2 had some awesome moments, and some bad ones.

I'm glad you said that ... because that's exactly what I have been telling people, including you. Patches can make things good and bad ... that's how it's been for 8 years. Expectations of players need to be inline with that. New devs, old devs ... they come, they go ... that doesn't change anything I'm saying. Anet's goal is to be the next Wildstar? Probably not ... but you think just listening to all the angry forum people that they can't appease is the answer to that? That's funny. Again, you realize this game CAN'T be balanced over a huge range of builds right? That's not the devs, that's the way the game is designed.

[Buran.3796]

@Obtena.7952 said:

Again, you realize this game CAN'T be balanced over a huge range of builds right? That's not the devs, that's the way the game is designed.

No, balance is not the key, because always will be better and worse specs and abuilds, but if they plan to release a patch every 3-4 months as always they shouldn't try to PR that they will increase the pace, then keep it as always and remain silent.

[Obtena.7952]

@Buran.3796 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

Again, you realize this game CAN'T be balanced over a huge range of builds right? That's not the devs, that's the way the game is designed.

No, balance is not the key, because always will be better and worse specs and abuilds, but if they plan to release a patch every 3-4 months as always they shouldn't try to PR that they will increase the pace, then keep it as always and remain silent.

Sure ... it wasn't smart of them to make some statement they would do that because literally every time they do it, it burns them ... but then again, as we both know, balance isn't going to fix what's wrong with the number of viable builds anyways ... so what's the problem if they do a 3 month patch cycle or not? If you believe what you say, you realize it's irrelevant how often they patch. If they did a patch every day ... we wouldn't have more viable builds because the problem has nothing to do with balance. It's related how the game is designed.

[Buran.3796]

@Obtena.7952 said:

so what's the problem if they do a 3 month patch cycle or not? If you believe what you say, you realize it's irrelevant how often they patch. If they did a patch every day ... we wouldn't have more viable builds because the problem has nothing to do with balance. It's related how the game is designed.

More cadence of patches will mean more variety: chances of builds, weapons, skills and traits which are underused to emerge making them useful, even if happens randomly. Is very evident in PvP: before the changes in the patch of February Renegade was fairly weak, a healing Warrior build wouldn't work, etc. Changes motivates players to explore and experiment; lack of changes settles the things for months and makes the things more boring.

Is not irrelevant how much they patch. The one which started this thread deleted the Firebrand from an entire game mode, so new changes (of any kind) could only make the things better for them and for people which like to play that spec, and the same happens withj other classes.

[Obtena.7952]

@Buran.3796 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

so what's the problem if they do a 3 month patch cycle or not? If you believe what you say, you realize it's irrelevant how often they patch. If they did a patch every day ... we wouldn't have more viable builds because the problem has nothing to do with balance. It's related how the game is designed.

More cadence of patches will mean more variety: chances of builds, weapons, skills and traits which are underused to emerge making them useful, even if happens randomly. Is very evident in PvP: before the changes in the patch of February Renegade was fairly weak, a healing Warrior build wouldn't work, etc. Changes motivates players to explore and experiment; lack of changes settles the things for months and makes the things more boring.

Is not irrelevant how much they patch. The one which started this thread deleted the Firebrand from an entire game mode, so new changes (of any kind) could only make the things better for them and for people which like to play that spec, and the same happens withj other classes.

Let's be clear, we are talking about how more frequent patches lead to balance ... they don't. The lack of viable builds is a game design limitation. If we want to shift to a discussion that more frequent patches leads to variety ... no debate from me there ... I agree that's what we would get. I just don't think that's really what is of primary interest to people when they make threads like this. If anything, that 'variety' appears to be a source of complaints (this thread being an example of that).

Now ... don't get me wrong ... if we can't have balance, then a more frequent change to make 'variety' seems like a good compromise to me to keep it fresh ... but that's not really of interest in the discussion. I don't think anyone here is interested in trading balance for variety ... even if balance can't be achieved. I think the other important thing to note is that we don't necessarily get more variety if we have more frequent changes because that belief requires you to not consider all the variety that already exists because of all the choices available to players. If anything, variety could go down in a patch. It simply depends on what gets changed so I wouldn't go convincing myself that more frequent patches = more variety in the game.

In otherwords, if you want variety, you already have it without Anet making more frequent patches.

[Dirame.8521]

I agree with @"Obtena.7952" . More patches doesn't mean more variety. What brings variety is more players being willing to not stick to builds they see on twitch or builds they see on metabattle.

The amount of crazy and unique builds gathering dust in metabattle's "archive storage room" is quite hilarious. There are so many builds that I made when I was making vids for youtube that people still don't know are possible to this day. And it's quite sad really.

What Anet needs is a competitive team that's willing to mix things up to counter the enemy rather than playing what people say is the strongest thing. That way players will learn more about build variety. This is what made GW1 so glorious. There were surefire builds but there was always some guild that would do something no one expected of the ordinary. 55hp monk build being a perfect example.