Is there chance for fix or it's going to stay that way ? warrior vs conditions!

[Aaron.1294]

Just buff healing from adrenal health while using healing signet. By adding more cleanses just to cleanse more healing just to heal...  Warr needs to be more aggressive, but there still needs to be counterplay.

 

@crewthief.8649not really. It prevented warr from getting condies on him. I'm suggesting it should work like old resistance, so condies don't affect u but they can still be applied for their full duration

Edited May 18, 2021 by Aaron.1294

[crewthief.8649]

On 5/18/2021 at 7:39 AM, Aaron.1294 said:

Just buff healing from adrenal health while using healing signet. By adding more cleanses just to cleanse more healing just to heal...  Warr needs to be more aggressive, but there still needs to be counterplay.

 

@crewthief.8649not really. It prevented warr from getting condies on him. I'm suggesting it should work like old resistance, so condies don't affect u but they can still be applied for their full duration

Edited May 19, 2021 by crewthief.8649

[TugboatSteve.3607]

On 5/17/2021 at 12:28 PM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

You CAN build a tanky character that deals respectable damage in WvW. But with the Resistance/Resolution Changes it can be rough still versus condi.

 

Spend some time in the Build Editor and tweak things on your build, but remember that there is more leeway for a functional WvW build than there is for a PvP build at the moment. You can blame the lazy mentality that the balance team has with removing gear from PvP rather than actually nerfing overperforming specs for that fiasco.

My question is - how?

 

Can you share your build?

 

The only thing I've come up with is spamming shout cleansing to deal with condi reapplication, but even in 2's the condition spamming from Mirage and necros is rather alarming. My survivability comes almost exclusively from shout healing.

 

I've combed through all of the trees to find something that actually provides a significant defensive (e.g. damage mitigation) benefit, and I can count them on a few fingers. Guard Counter, RR (both no effect on Condis and both requiring setup), Spiked armor (procs on crit or block, overlaps with Shield Block), and Vigorous Shouts are really the only things I'm finding of any value, and that requires two suboptimal trees that no one seems to recommend, defense and tactics.

 

With Disc, you at least get a significant reduction to FC, but I don't see much else in that tree that helps with either power or condition mitigation, and there's an opportunity cost in losing out on access to the meager offerings in defense and tactics.

 

I'm not sold on stances due to their innate cooldowns and evident lack of synergy and as has been noted countless times recently, the "proc" stunbreaks are on 300s CDs in both WvW and in arenas. There are lots of dead talents (and weapon skills) in all trees as a result of splits.

 

I will admit though, what's killing me in arenas is being unable to choose my stats. There is a grave amount of restrictions on vitality and toughness. The one amulet that gives both is underbudgeted by 200 stats (Paladin amulet)... and there is no healing power/toughness combo item.

Edited May 19, 2021 by TugboatSteve.3607

[DKRathalos.9625]

On 5/18/2021 at 1:41 AM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

You know what warrior needs?

 

Gain might when struck, 0 ICD. Slap it into Defense somewhere, probably Defy Pain's Slot.

 

You know what warrior also needs?

 

Gain Resolution when activating a burst. Not on hit. On activation. Slap that into Defense as well, I vote Hardened Armor in addition to its current effects.

What about like “Gain Adrenaline when Struck”? If too OP for base then it can be trait on defense.

[Loading.4503]

Maybe im losing my mind, but dont we already have a trait in the defense line that gives you adrenaline when hit?

[Grand Marshal.4098]

1 hour ago, Loading.4503 said:

Maybe im losing my mind, but dont we already have a trait in the defense line that gives you adrenaline when hit?

Yeah Cleansing Ire. Kinda unreliable of a GM tbh, although Longbow Bursts do make the most out of it. 

 

In any case, we got that and Furious in Arms, extra adrenaline for our crits, but Furious also gives the stacking condi dmg effect, which imo post changes should also mitigate incoming condition dmg. Would greatly benefit us to run Arms consistently for that feature while also upping our offensive capabilities. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

9 hours ago, DKRathalos.9625 said:

What about like “Gain Adrenaline when Struck”? If too OP for base then it can be trait on defense.

Hey man, I think you forgot the sarcasm tag there because Cleansing Ire does that already.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

9 hours ago, TugboatSteve.3607 said:

My question is - how?

 

Can you share your build?

Seeing as I haven't seen you before. No. But I'll give you pointers.

9 hours ago, TugboatSteve.3607 said:

The only thing I've come up with is spamming shout cleansing to deal with condi reapplication, but even in 2's the condition spamming from Mirage and necros is rather alarming. My survivability comes almost exclusively from shout healing.

That is part of it.

9 hours ago, TugboatSteve.3607 said:

 

I've combed through all of the trees to find something that actually provides a significant defensive (e.g. damage mitigation) benefit, and I can count them on a few fingers. Guard Counter, RR (both no effect on Condis and both requiring setup), Spiked armor (procs on crit or block, overlaps with Shield Block), and Vigorous Shouts are really the only things I'm finding of any value, and that requires two suboptimal trees that no one seems to recommend, defense and tactics.

Tactics is something that a lot of warriors are running with lately, especially if they are core. Leg Specialist is useful to stop kiters along with a dps boost. The master tree offers two decent traits, one of which is almost mandatory in WvW, and the Grandmaster Tier offers two of the best survival traits out there (VS if you are solo, PS if you have a group). Phalanx Strength + MMR +MM +Signet of Rage + Runes of the Mad King is a full self heal in the middle of a fight along with massive might gain for your group. But that isn't the build I was referencing earlier.

The problem of most warrior builds is they can't seem to drop Discipline. You can do that, it just requires you to change your pace, which is jarring for most people. If you want decent condition defense/mitigation though Defense still offers some solid traits, Its just that the Master tier is a wasteland of uselessness other than a boring stat converter (but hey thats more power so...).

9 hours ago, TugboatSteve.3607 said:

With Disc, you at least get a significant reduction to FC, but I don't see much else in that tree that helps with either power or condition mitigation, and there's an opportunity cost in losing out on access to the meager offerings in defense and tactics.

Yeah, if you are running Spellbreaker FC is very important and the reduction on it is also important. But Tactics isn't meager. Defense is kind of meager, but there are two very useful condition mitigation traits there.

9 hours ago, TugboatSteve.3607 said:

I'm not sold on stances due to their innate cooldowns and evident lack of synergy and as has been noted countless times recently, the "proc" stunbreaks are on 300s CDs in both WvW and in arenas. There are lots of dead talents (and weapon skills) in all trees as a result of splits.

Welcome to the main problem with warrior during this meta...

9 hours ago, TugboatSteve.3607 said:

I will admit though, what's killing me in arenas is being unable to choose my stats. There is a grave amount of restrictions on vitality and toughness. The one amulet that gives both is underbudgeted by 200 stats (Paladin amulet)... and there is no healing power/toughness combo item.

And welcome to the main problem of PvP balance. A lazy balance team that would rather remove variety than touch over performing specs...

 

The only fix to that sadly is to go into WvW...

[TugboatSteve.3607]

Worth noting Phalanx Strength is at diametric poles from Vigorous Shouts and is a completely different build.

 

One thing that really bugs me about shrug it off is that although it is the only potentially useful stunbreak trait with a 60 second cooldown on auto proc and some synergy with vigorous shouts, it's scarcely useful as a stunbreak given it procs on a single condition and only removes a single condition on a one minute cooldown. Compare this (as I often do with Warrior junk) with Strength of the Fallen in Valor under Guardian. Smite 1 condition on 10 second interval automatically. Then Sigil of Resolve automatically smites one condition on a 10 second interval, e.g. auto cleanse of 2 conditions every 2 seconds with 2 abilities and one pip on a core tree.

 

A single stack of bleed from sword one would proc shrug it off, wasting the stun break. There are so many objectively bad traits.

 

What even is Loss Aversion? Is this supposed to be objectively useless in PvP and WvW? Conditional proc and it only does 50 damage?

Edited May 19, 2021 by TugboatSteve.3607

[crewthief.8649]

25 minutes ago, TugboatSteve.3607 said:

Worth noting Phalanx Strength is at diametric poles from Vigorous Shouts and is a completely different build.

 

One thing that really bugs me about shrug it off is that although it is the only potentially useful stunbreak trait with a 60 second cooldown on auto proc and some synergy with vigorous shouts, it's scarcely useful as a stunbreak given it procs on a single condition and only removes a single condition on a one minute cooldown. Compare this (as I often do with Warrior junk) with Strength of the Fallen in Valor under Guardian. Smite 1 condition on 10 second interval automatically. Then Sigil of Resolve automatically smites one condition on a 10 second interval, e.g. auto cleanse of 2 conditions every 2 seconds with 2 abilities and one pip on a core tree.

 

A single stack of bleed from sword one would proc shrug it off, wasting the stun break. There are so many objectively bad traits.

 

What even is Loss Aversion? Is this supposed to be objectively useless in PvP and WvW? Conditional proc and it only does 50 damage?

The list goes on. Head Butt for example, grants 50% bonus damage for landing it on a target that has stability (clearly implying that it was, at least partially, meant to punish stability), so instead of like, 8 damage, it will do 12 or something. It truly is mind-boggling. And it gets better... just look at the traits and skills that were rendered useless by the May 11th patch. The worst part is, they will not fix these things for months. 

Edited May 19, 2021 by crewthief.8649

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Loss Aversion is your adrenaline building tool in zergs, although Cleansing Ire is more potent when at range. 

 

I'd say Loss Aversion is a must have for DPS SpB less so than Minstrels. But since it augments adrenaline, you hardly go wrong picking it. 

[nthmetal.9652]

1 hour ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Loss Aversion is your adrenaline building tool in zergs, although Cleansing Ire is more potent when at range. 

 

I'd say Loss Aversion is a must have for DPS SpB less so than Minstrels. But since it augments adrenaline, you hardly go wrong picking it. 

You really think Loss Aversion is that necessary? In zerg context I hardly struggle for adrenaline and greatly prefer to run slow counter instead. Together with Leg Specialist, full counter becomes a pretty powerful tool, much better than loss aversion IMO, and more essential if you try helping win a fight.
If you DO struggle for adrenaline, try running tactics and strength instead of ...  Discpline, so you regain adrenaline with hammer trait, or try Burst Mastery in Discipline traitline so burst skills themselves restore adrenaline. Strength has the advantage of giving you access to Body Blows, which gives enemies a nice treatment of weakness, Discipline reduces burst Cooldown.

Edited May 19, 2021 by nthmetal.9652

[Grand Marshal.4098]

33 minutes ago, nthmetal.9652 said:

You really think Loss Aversion is that necessary? In zerg context I hardly struggle for adrenaline and greatly prefer to run slow counter instead. Together with Leg Specialist, full counter becomes a pretty powerful tool, much better than loss aversion IMO, and more essential if you try helping win a fight.
If you DO struggle for adrenaline, try running tactics and strength instead of ...  Discpline, so you regain adrenaline with hammer trait, or try Burst Mastery in Discipline traitline so burst skills themselves restore adrenaline. Strength has the advantage of giving you access to Body Blows, which gives enemies a nice treatment of weakness, Discipline reduces burst Cooldown.

It was a bit of exaggeration on my part. Loss Aversion isn't that important no. It simply adds to your dmg from boonstripping. 

 

Ofc there are better adrenaline traits. It's just that against good zergs your condis will be converted instantly so no, you lose something there. 

 

Better augment your boonrip/flat dmg rather than any type of condis. Unless if against your normal pug zerg open tag where the clouding is real and immobing slowing people actually has effect. 

 

EDIT: Make the trait crit and it's practically useful. They were afraid that pre-nerfs SPB would strip too quickly and too much, so they ofc wouldn't allow such a trait to crit. But now after the nerfs to boonstrip, it's safe to say that suggesting for a crit chance to be added to the trait is OK. 

Edited May 19, 2021 by Grand Marshal.4098

[Dadnir.5038]

On 5/17/2021 at 8:31 PM, Aaron.1294 said:

u forgot about mending

 

People tend to forget about many things when those things go against what they want to convey. All in all, today's warrior is more accustomed to endure condition through resistance than cleanse them (despite the pretty good access to cleansing skills: mending, shake it off, signet of stamina, call of valor).

 

People also tend to forget that resistance still make you immun to the effects of movement impending conditions, blind, weakness, slow and vulnerability.

[nthmetal.9652]

2 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

People tend to forget about many things when those things go against what they want to convey.

Not really. Well, in PvP things might be different, but we have a good tool to measure how well stripping works in WvW, and that tells us that mending is "nice". And "nice" is one tier above total kitten. Nothing more than that. And you give up healing you really badly need as a melee class without reliable access to protection. You simply can't take mending, if it has to be defiant stance 😉
I personally prefer the shoutheal, to restore endurance on my allies.

[Dadnir.5038]

13 hours ago, nthmetal.9652 said:

Not really. Well, in PvP things might be different, but we have a good tool to measure how well stripping works in WvW, and that tells us that mending is "nice". And "nice" is one tier above total kitten. Nothing more than that. And you give up healing you really badly need as a melee class without reliable access to protection. You simply can't take mending, if it has to be defiant stance 😉
I personally prefer the shoutheal, to restore endurance on my allies.

 

If you talk about WvW then it's a given that you got allies (especially if "you prefer the shoutheal, to restore endurance on your allies"). Then this mean that your allies can take care of either your need for condi cleanse (Engineer are quite good at that) or give you resolution (thank the guardian). Which mean that Mending being nice is, ultimately, more than enough (unless you prefer keeping resistance for it's other effects which mean that signet is fine).

 

NB.: A 20s CD heal that cleanse 5 conditions is more than just "nice", there are healing skill considered "nice" on other professions that are way worse than that (like all 4 core elementalist's healing skills for example).

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

More like 16s CD after the trait, but that 5 condi cleanse does crap for you since as soon as the animation is over the condis come right on back.

 

Warrior needs some Condition Duration Reduction outside of Dogged March built in somewhere. I know Defense is the best place to put that sort of thing, but I'm not going to hold my breath with Anet actually fixing Defense.

 

Though I'd alter Dolyak signet to be -10% damage received and -10% condition duration received rather than the 180 toughness.

[Aaron.1294]

@Lan Deathrider.5910it's 16 sec CD is completely overpowered and shows dat anet doesn't care about other skills. They just slapped huge healing with huge condi cleanse on low CD. The only way to punish warr for using it is through long range cc which is not available for many classes. They really should reduce it's healing or increase it's CD to 25 sec and fix other aspects of warr rather than slapping a lot more than enough utility to one skill...

Edited May 20, 2021 by Aaron.1294

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 minutes ago, Aaron.1294 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910it's 16 sec CD is completely overpowered and shows dat anet doesn't care about other skills. They just slapped huge healing with huge condi cleanse on low CD. The only way to punish warr for using it is through long range cc which is not available for many classes. They really should reduce it's healing or increase it's CD to 25 sec and fix other aspects of warr rather than slapping a lot more than enough utility to one skill...

That isn't even Warrior's huge heal. You should see the numbers from To The Limit with Vigorous Shouts traited, or Signet of Rage with Mad King Runes (that one is a huge heal, wvw though since they botched the runes in PvP rather than fix a broken espec).

[Aaron.1294]

Yes,  but only in wvw, where 50% end energy sigil exists... I mean sure, U can get away with it but at this point I really don't care about wvw and stuff since it's a mess.

[felix.2386]

revenge counter is lesser then adept trait at this point

Edited May 20, 2021 by felix.2386

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Aaron.1294 said:

Yes,  but only in wvw, where 50% end energy sigil exists... I mean sure, U can get away with it but at this point I really don't care about wvw and stuff since it's a mess.

That's fair.