Pet swapping whilst downed - Soulbeast

[Zyreva.1078]

28 minutes ago, Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

Without this ranger (all 3 specialization) will be in a big disadvantage vs other classes.

Have you ever considered that someone lying on the ground - close to death - might actually be supposed to be at a disadvantage compared to someone who is still up on his feet?

 

 

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

1 minute ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Have you ever considered that someone lying on the ground - close to death - might actually be supposed to be at a disadvantage compared to someone who is still up on his feet?

 

 

Do you compare apples to pears?

[Kodama.6453]

2 minutes ago, Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

You and the other guy can't see the big picture. And I'll try to do an exercise of imagination for you and for the other guy.

Let's say they don't allot pet swap in down state for Soulbeast. (Even seems you didn't understand either that in down state Soulbeast became a Core Ranger). Soulbeast pet is killed just 1 sec or 2 sec before Soulbeast is downed. Then Soulbeast will be without pet for 20-60 sec. Enough time to be stomped or killed by other classes, even the other classes are in down state too, because all other classes have more damage/CC in down state than a Soulbeas (Core Ranger/Druid) without a pet. 

Because pet is dying so fast, is the weakest spot for ranger (but seems no many players know this and use this against ranger), Anet allowed Ranger/Druid to swap pet in combat and in down state. For Soulbeast they change this in combat because Soulbeast can ress his Pet with merge and unmerge Beastmode. It take a little bit more than Ranger/Druid swap pet, but it works. 

Well, in down state, Soulbeast became a Core Ranger (I am really sorry for Kodama if for him doesn't matter what Soulbeast can do or can't in down state, but the fact the icon remain the same, than Soulbeast hase the same advantage as a Soulbeast vs a Core Ranger) and has the same abilities, benefit from pet as Core Ranger. 

It is so simple! Do you realize that I am 100% sure that Anet will not change this, because they can't make a class totally useless in down state vs other classes, and the only thing I am trying to do here is to make you or let's not say make you ( because is up to you if you want or not to accept this) to understand the mechanic Anet is using for Ranger.

Ofc they can change this, by kee on UI the Beastmode key, and when Soulbeast is in down state and his pet is already dead, he can use it so he can instant revive his pet (2 sec) as the Core Ranger and Druid do. 

Once again, in down state, Soulbeast has the same advantage and disadvantage from pets as Core Ranger and Druid. Doesn't have more health, more damage etc.

You are ignoring the fact that Lick Wounds is reviving your pet.

 

Why do you think they included this revive here? With the ability to swap pets, which functions as a revive of the pet for the ranger already, there is no need for an additional revive.

Why should a ranger have more ways to revive their pet while they are in downstate (a state in which a class is supposed to be vulnerable) than outside of it?

The revive is there to guarantee you a way to revive your dying pet without using F-skills.

 

Also the point about the icon wasn't really serious, but as someone already explained to you, going into downstate does not make you return into the base class. Traits of elite specs are still working in downstate and there is a trait in Soulbeast specifically stating that pet swap in downstate is disabled. It makes no sense that the other soulbeast traits are still working in downstate, but this one doesn't, it is inconsistent.

[Zyreva.1078]

1 minute ago, Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

Do you compare apples to pears?

If it makes sense in a certain context - why not?

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

5 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

You are ignoring the fact that Lick Wounds is reviving your pet.

20 sec!!! 

 

6 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

If it makes sense in a certain context - why not?

 

I think you are a smart guy. In general ppl are talking and debate skills/utilities/traits/mechanics in the way to the balance the game.

I am talking about apples only, and compare classes in the same situation.

But ofc you can do whatever you wan.

[felix.2386]

yes, its bugged and should be removed.

 

even ranger fighting another ranger hates that.

Edited June 2, 2021 by felix.2386

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

11 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Why do you think they included this revive here? With the ability to swap pets, which functions as a revive of the pet for the ranger already, there is no need for an additional revive.

Why should a ranger have more ways to revive their pet while they are in downstate (a state in which a class is supposed to be vulnerable) than outside of it?

 

Because Anet studied and this was the mechanic since the beginning. Core Ranger did this since beta, he could revive pet using Lick Wounds and swap pet. The question for your "Why" I already explained in my post, to balance the skills from down state of other classes.

 

13 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Also the point about the icon wasn't really serious, but as someone already explained to you, going into downstate does not make you return into the base class. Traits of elite specs are still working in downstate and there is a trait in Soulbeast specifically stating that pet swap in downstate is disabled. It makes no sense that the other soulbeast traits are still working in downstate, but this one doesn't, it is inconsistent.

 

Can you explain me what are the traits who are still working for Soulbeast when he is in down state? Can you tell me please what are the advantage of a Sooulbeast in down state vs a Core Ranger or Druid? Druid is the only one who can benefit from Ancient Seed.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

21 minutes ago, Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

You and the other guy can't see the big picture. And I'll try to do an exercise of imagination for you and for the other guy.

Let's say they don't allow pet swap in down state for Soulbeast. (Even seems you didn't understand either that in down state Soulbeast became a Core Ranger). Soulbeast pet is killed just 1 sec or 2 sec before Soulbeast is downed. Then Soulbeast will be without pet for 20-60 sec. Enough time to be stomped or killed by other classes, even the other classes are in down state too, because all other classes have more damage/CC in down state than a Soulbeast (Core Ranger/Druid) without a pet. 

Because pet is dying so fast, is the weakest spot for ranger (but seems no many players know this and use this against ranger), Anet allowed Ranger/Druid to swap pet in combat and in down state. For Soulbeast they change this in combat because Soulbeast can ress his Pet with merge and unmerge Beastmode. It take a little bit more than Ranger/Druid swap pet, but it works. 

Well, in down state, Soulbeast became a Core Ranger (I am really sorry for Kodama if for him doesn't matter what Soulbeast can do or can't in down state, but the fact the icon remain the same, than Soulbeast hase the same advantage as a Soulbeast vs a Core Ranger) and has the same abilities, benefit from pet as Core Ranger. 

That isn't how the game functions. You don't lose traitlines when going down. Downstate Soulbeast is still a Soulbeast, pet swap is denied to Soulbeast.

21 minutes ago, Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

It is so simple! Do you realize that I am 100% sure that Anet will not change this, because they can't make a class totally useless in down state vs other classes, and the only thing I am trying to do here is to make you or let's not say make you ( because is up to you if you want or not to accept this) to understand the mechanic Anet is using for Ranger.

Ofc they can change this, by a key on UI , the Beastmode key, and when Soulbeast is in down state and his pet is already dead, he can use it so he can instant revive his pet (2 sec) as the Core Ranger and Druid do. 

Once again, in down state, Soulbeast has the same advantage and disadvantage from pets as Core Ranger and Druid. Doesn't have more health, more damage etc.

You are right, it is so simple! You aren't supposed to have access to profession mechanic skills while in downstate!

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

4 minutes ago, felix.2386 said:

yes, its bugged and should be removed.

 

even ranger fighting another ranger hates that.

lol, how? Why should a Core Ranger vs a Soulbeast (both in down state) hates this? When both have the same advantage and disadvantage? 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

2 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Ah yes, it makes it sound like I want the pet to do absolutely nothing if my first sentence you quoted was literally "I never said pets should stop attacking".

 

And your argument that no other class suffers if their pets get killed is also wrong.

Mesmer is using their killable phantasms and clones as fuel for their class mechanic, shatters, and phantasms in general are their strongest dps skills.

Killing the phantasms and clones hurts them hard in utility, dps, defense, everything. It is the reason why mesmers are struggling in WvW blob fights, since their clones and phantasms are getting instantly deleted by all the AoE thrown around there.

 

So with this argument, should we at least let mesmers use their shatters while they are in downstate? I bet they would love to have access to the damage, CC and distortion from their class mechanic while downed.

 

How fast can Mesmer's regenerate clones again? Is it 60 seconds untraited? The shatter is also literally part of the class, voluntarily killing our ranger pets is most definitely not.  

 

55 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Nah bro, we are talking about the Function key skills here. Sure the pet can attack who you target and use it's inherent skills. But, pet swap is supposed to be disabled now for Soulbeast.

That and no other profession has access to their Function key skills while in downstate. That is a BIG issue right there as far as balance is concerned.

Can you imagine if Scrapper could use F5 on itself? Spellbreaker using Full Counter while Downed?

You' be hard pressed to find an engineer more knowledgeable than Kodama or a warrior more knowledgeable than myself or Grand Marshal.

 

 

I'm not sure how long you've been playing, but F2 skills on down were literally designed into the game.  It was to help prevent stomps and also help enemy pressure in PvE; we had things like wolf fear for this exact situation. 

 

It's a zero balance issue because the pet itself is involved in the downstate inherently--the #3 skill is for it to rez the ranger.  

 

It may be a news flash to you, but you can stop the rez the same way you can stop the CC--by downing the pet.  Which usually happens instantly because if the ranger goes down people tend to spam AoE skills on you anyway, and the pet is either off fighting and is way too late to come back or is downed in the AoE.  

 

If you down the pet and they swap to another pet, you've firstly taken WAY too long to stomp and any class could have avoided this--ele would have mistformed somewhere safe, necro would have feared you off a cliff or outright killed you with condi, warrior would have gotten up and started fighting again, etc.  And secondly the pet swap is now on CD so there is no chance for a third swap.  

 

Also I will keep saying this, for all saying swap is a 'bug' on Soulbeast you have to compensate (based on Anet's design philosophy) so that means giving SB merge on down.  Because merge literally IS a pet swap for Soulbeast when they are in combat.

 

Finally, if we're to the point of nitpicking downstates then people must be worse at playing the game then I thought.  I personally have never once been defeated by someone in downstate unless I was +1'd or I was very close to downed myself and we had a downstate battle.  

Edited June 2, 2021 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Faolain.2374]

22 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

Try backing up? Also, if you are getting chain CC'd and cannot apply a boon, stealth, or dodge, how do you stomp necro's then when they have extremely strong condi pressure in downstate? They can also fear you while in downstate which is a very long CC.  

 

I'm sorry, but as long as thief 'invis stomp' remains in the game, this is nothing.  Thematically it makes sense as well as the ranger is downed, not the pet.    

I was on warrior stomping this ranger. I deal with necro like I deal with everything else in downed state I.e if I don’t land my first stomp because they use their single stomp interrupt skill, I will definitely land the second. This guy interrupted my stomp THREE times, nothing else really does that. As I said it took 12+ seconds to stomp this guy, nothing else can do that, well, not chain interrupt chained stomps. By the end of it I had to fully kill the pet just to stop the ranger getting back up. 
 

So just to clarify. This guy interrupted 3 stomps in a row, and nearly self ressed because of it. That is not comparable to any other downed state 

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

1 minute ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

That isn't how the game functions. You don't lose traitlines when going down. Downstate Soulbeast is still a Soulbeast, pet swap is denied to Soulbeast.

Really? Ok, make a Ranger and a Soulbeast. Both in down state, using the same pet, please tell me what are the advantage of Soulbeast vs Ranger?

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

1 minute ago, Faolain.2374 said:

I was on warrior stomping this ranger. I deal with necro like I deal with everything else in downed state I.e if I don’t land my first stomp because they use their single stomp interrupt skill, I will definitely land the second. This guy interrupted my stomp THREE times, nothing else really does that. As I said it took 12+ seconds to stomp this guy, nothing else can do that, well, not chain interrupt chained stomps. By the end of it I had to fully kill the pet just to stop the ranger getting back up. 
 

So just to clarify. This guy interrupted 3 stomps in a row, and nearly self ressed because of it. That is not comparable to any other downed state 

I don't know if he was Soulbeast, but Core Ranger or Druid can do exact the same thing!!!

[Zyreva.1078]

14 minutes ago, Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

20 sec!!! 

It's ~ 7s initial cd

 

Quote

 

 

I think you are a smart guy. In general ppl are talking and debate skills/utilities/traits/mechanics in the way to the balance the game.

I am talking about apples only, and compare classes in the same situation.

But ofc you can do whatever you wan.

 

So you are comparing a downed vs downed battle, with both sides going down at roughly the same time - a situation which ranger is almost always going to win, regardless of whether the ranger is able to actively command the pet or not - and you want to argue with "balance"?

Edited June 2, 2021 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Faolain.2374]

9 minutes ago, Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

I don't know if he was Soulbeast, but Core Ranger or Druid can do exact the same thing!!!

I wrote the original thread post. It was a soulbeast and was part of a 3vs1 on warrior overall. I downed and killed the other 2 which only left a 1v1 scenario basically. If this soulbeast had not been the last to go down, I certainly would not have got the stomp and he 100% would have self ressed because of this triple interrupt nonsense 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

14 minutes ago, Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

Really? Ok, make a Ranger and a Soulbeast. Both in down state, using the same pet, please tell me what are the advantage of Soulbeast vs Ranger?

That is a red herring. A Soulbeast is a Soulbeast. They relinquish petswap to become Soulbeasts.

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

9 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

It's ~ 7s initial cd

I don't know if I am allowed, but read this:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lick_Wounds#:~:text=Using this skill will immediately,your maximum health every second. 

 

10 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

So you are comparing a downed vs downed battle, with both sides going down at roughly the same time - a situation which ranger is almost always going to win, regardless of whether the ranger is able to actively command the pet or not - and you want to argue with "balance"?

Edited 6 minutes ago by UmbraNoctis.1907

The main subject was why Soulbeast in down state should have the same things as Core Ranger and Druid.

And yes, we argue about balance. Some classes are doing way more damage in down state than a ranger, can stealth etc. Somehow these should be balanced, right? Well Anet choose to give Ranger the possibility to swap pet.

[Kodama.6453]

31 minutes ago, Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

 

Because Anet studied and this was the mechanic since the beginning. Core Ranger did this since beta, he could revive pet using Lick Wounds and swap pet. The question for your "Why" I already explained in my post, to balance the skills from down state of other classes.

 

 

Can you explain me what are the traits who are still working for Soulbeast when he is in down state? Can you tell me please what are the advantage of a Sooulbeast in down state vs a Core Ranger or Druid? Druid is the only one who can benefit from Ancient Seed.

That something was in the game since the beginning does not mean that it is intended design.

 

There are just 2 possible explanations for what is going on:

Either this thing is a bug, hence why it is not supported by the UI.

Or Anet are literally the worst game designers in history by not even having basic knowledge about UI design and usability.

 

If you design a class which can, unlike all 7 other core game classes you have designed, use their class mechanic skills in downstate, then you have to communicate this with the player by showing them an UI. So players understand that this mechanic is different from other classes and the game in total.

 

And you act like ranger downed skills are so much worse than these of other classes. They are not. There are some outliers, like necromancer dealing huge damage, but ranger in general has not so bad downed skills. In fact, the ability to use F-skills in downstate makes rangers overperform alot compared to other classes. Someone already explained to you that ranger can chain interrupt the enemy 3 times to stop a stomp. Literally no other class can do this stuff, classes usually can interrupt you 1 time and then get stomped if there is no further intervention.

 

If a ranger and any other class are fighing with both landing in downstate at the same time, ranger is basically guaranteed to win.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

8 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Literally no other class can do this stuff, classes usually can interrupt you 1 times and then get stomped if there is no further intervention.

Just Engineer can revive himself .... lol

Again, Engineer has 2 interrupt skills in down state. 

I am not debating anymore, pointless.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Dragonzhunter.8506

[Zyreva.1078]

1 minute ago, Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

I don't know if I am allowed, but read this:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lick_Wounds#:~:text=Using this skill will immediately,your maximum health every second. 

I did. Nothing there disagrees with my statement. (And if it did, it would just mean the wiki is wrong). Lick Wounds has a 20s cd, this is correct, but this cd only applies once the skill has been used. The time it takes for the skill to become aviable initially is much shorter.

 

1 minute ago, Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

The main subject was why Soulbeast in down state should have the same things as Core Ranger and Druid.

And yes, we argue about balance. Some classes are doing way more damage in down state than a ranger, can stealth etc. Somehow these should be balanced, right? Well Anet choose to give Ranger the possibility to swap pet.

 

We don't know if it was intentional design or an oversight. And it is irrelevant when it comes to balance. Fact is, ranger's downstate tends to be one of the more powerful ones, and that would remain true even without pet control. In a downed vs downed fight (you know, comparing apples to apples) ranger is in fact the strongest by a clear margin.

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

1 minute ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

We don't know if it was intentional design or an oversight. And it is irrelevant when it comes to balance. Fact is, ranger's downstate tends to be one of the more powerful ones, and that would remain true even without pet control. In a downed vs downed fight (you know, comparing apples to apples) ranger is in fact the strongest by a clear margin.

Without a pet, Ranger in down state is the weakest one. Check Ranger skills in down state and compare with Warrior or whatever class you want.

[Zyreva.1078]

1 minute ago, Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

Without a pet, Ranger in down state is the weakest one. Check Ranger skills in down state and compare with Warrior or whatever class you want.

Except there is no downed ranger without pet, because Lick Wounds revives the pet.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

1 minute ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

We don't know if it was intentional design or an oversight. And it is irrelevant when it comes to balance. Fact is, ranger's downstate tends to be one of the more powerful ones, and that would remain true even without pet control. In a downed vs downed fight (you know, comparing apples to apples) ranger is in fact the strongest by a clear margin.

 

We literally do know, at least those of us that have been playing since the beginning.  It was very clear that ranger pets are meant to be involved in ALL aspects of gameplay; also why it isn't even on the UI as it's pretty intuitive that you can still give commands to your pet while you yourself are lying on the ground.  If this WASN'T intuitive we wouldn't have this topic with someone nearly losing to a downstate of all things.

 

Ranger also used to be strongest underwater by a clear margin (which is why we were jokingly labeled as aquaman class); to the point where there was an ACTUAL bug (may still be there) with pets rezzing when they were downed if you were underwater.  Guess what, no one plays underwater, so no one cared.  

 

Same here, rallybotting and having an entire group rez someone that is terribad is far, FAR more egregious then not being able to recognize how to avoid stuns in a downstate--two of which rely entirely on pets that use CC to begin with.  

[Kodama.6453]

3 minutes ago, Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

Just Engineer can revive himself .... lol

I am not debating anymore, pointless.

Funny that you are wrong here once again....

 

Other classes can do this, too. And the really funny part about that: Ranger can do this! xD

The active skill of the elite spirit of nature, Nature's Renewal, is able to instantly revive a ranger landing in downstate if timed right.

[Faolain.2374]

36 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

We literally do know, at least those of us that have been playing since the beginning.  It was very clear that ranger pets are meant to be involved in ALL aspects of gameplay; also why it isn't even on the UI as it's pretty intuitive that you can still give commands to your pet while you yourself are lying on the ground.  If this WASN'T intuitive we wouldn't have this topic with someone nearly losing to a downstate of all things.

 

Ranger also used to be strongest underwater by a clear margin (which is why we were jokingly labeled as aquaman class); to the point where there was an ACTUAL bug (may still be there) with pets rezzing when they were downed if you were underwater.  Guess what, no one plays underwater, so no one cared.  

 

Same here, rallybotting and having an entire group rez someone that is terribad is far, FAR more egregious then not being able to recognize how to avoid stuns in a downstate--two of which rely entirely on pets that use CC to begin with.  

Are we just going to ignore the fact the ranger is:

1).  legit the only profession that is able to triple interrupt

2.) one of 3? Professions with a downed aoe cc skill, others being guardian and engi, although engi has a long delay on its aoe skill I think 

3.) the only profession which you actually have to stomp, because as a solo player you can not cleave that pet res in an outnumbered fight. In group outnumbered fights if you do not stomp that ranger it’s never ever going to bleed out unlike every other profession. 
4.) one of 2? Professions which have a “super self ress skill” 
 

if we compared this to thief for example. Imagine if a thief was able to teleport 3 times in a row to avoid being stomped 3 times all while self ressing, would be pretty disgusting. 

Edited June 2, 2021 by Faolain.2374