Give Herald 5 man quickness

[Infusion.7149]

1 hour ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

And there we have the crux if our issue. Seems we're talking two different things thinking we're on the same subject. We're not.
I don't care about "ability to play", which judging from your replies seems to be a personal level mindset thing.

I care about desirability in end game group content, which dictates if your favourite healer spec will wait for group 1h+ or get insta accepted and be done with whole  thing by that time.

Right now balance is clearly off, and Druids, Heralds, Tempests, are definitely on the bottom of the list when it comes to being desired in end game content 5 man groups.

But i will give you one thing Obtena. You're right. Herald does not need 5 man quickness. I've now much better idea.
Draconic Echoes change -  Facets now pulse their effects only to 5 party members, but in return their consume skills grant 2s aoe  alacrity each.

Interesting how you came to that conclusion after this whole thread. First post I wrote: a better idea is more might stacking (100% boon duration = 14 might right now with Facet of Strength) and/or better alacrity output if you trait salvation for Natural Harmony.
Basically you would trade the prot uptime and CC on Darkrazor for more might.

Consume skills:

• Gaze of Darkness = 15s cooldown ---> 2/15 =  13%
• Burst of Strength = 12s cooldown ---> 2/12 = 16.6%
• Elemental Blast = 10s cooldown ---> 2/10 = 20%
• Chaotic Release = 20s cooldown ---> 2/20 = 10%
• Infuse Light = 30s cooldown ---> 2/30 = 6.6%

Total coverage off cooldown ~66%

With alacrity:

• Gaze of Darkness = 12s cooldown ---> 2/12 = 16.6%
• Burst of Strength = 9.5s cooldown ---> 2/9.5 = 21%
• Elemental Blast = 8s cooldown ---> 2/8 = 25%
• Chaotic Release = 16s cooldown ---> 2/16 = 12.5%
• Infuse Light = 24s cooldown ---> 2/24 = 8.3%

Total coverage off cooldown ~83% , keeping in mind you blow Infuse Light just for the alacrity
 

With 2s base alacrity output you'd need about 50% boon duration before alacrity is counted which is basically the same situation as May 11 scrapper. Boon herald in full DPS gear is 28K-30K DPS (depending on Forceful Persistence which is up to +13% or 4% per facet) right now so that doesn't seem that viable as the main profession specific boon Assassin's presence means you'd be closer to 28K versus running Notoriety. It would be roughly 24K DPS.

What about 2.5s base duration similar to scrapper now? You'd need about 20% boon duration before alacrity is counted and it would be a more reasonable proposal since in fractals you would get that from potions.

Check theory:

• No spotter/empower allies/frost spirit with 50% boon duration on Snowcrows gear optimizer and 150AR + fractal potions is 20,220 versus 21,337 , aka loss of ~5% damage (accuracy sigil disabled because fractals)
• No spotter/empower allies with 50% boon duration on Snowcrows gear optimizer is 16,817 versus 18,926 , aka loss of ~12% damage plus it uses sigil of accuracy (with accuracy sigil disabled you get 16,657 which is also a loss of 12%)
• No spotter/empower allies with 20% boon duration on Snowcrows gear optimizer is 18,448 versus 18,926 , aka loss of ~3% damage plus it uses sigil of accuracy (with accuracy sigil disabled you get 18,263 which is also a loss of ~4%)

Other thoughts
Druid used to be meta with chrono, do you forget so quickly? The meta changes , right now mantra of solace is busted and that is why firebrand is dominant (CQB/CFB/HB). Without mantra of solace it is more in line with other supports because it won't have <12s cooldown blocks without using any utilities.

Competitive split would be required as having alacrity on herald is extremely dangerous for WvW and PvP.

How would this help the current situation?
Might: CQB doesn't put out that much might since it doesn't use staff and is near negligible on heal scrapper or StM chrono
Fury: fury isn't covered on quickness scrapper or StM chrono unless you use Pack Rune (not 100% coverage) or a turret in the case of scrapper
Healing: Renegade healing has been made much worse due to soulcleave nerf, whereas elevated compassion doesn't that heal much. HB is used because it is less janky to heal with it than StM chrono and heal scrapper doesn't have the aegis output.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[SeTect.5918]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That doesn't make sense ... what people compare and think doesn't seem relevant to how the game is designed and changed. Balance isn't 'kept' by players making these comparisons. Balance is kept by Anet making changes to the game to get the desired results in how they want to see people interact with it. 

You are right, it isnt keps by players but players can make suggestions to do it. And Anet also cant really keep balance that good in my opinion. Why would Firebrand be that op.

However i did not read all the comments up before so i have still 1 or some questions: Do you just disagree the quickness for Herald or do u fully disagree a Herald buff (whatever it would be: dps, sustain, heal or support)?
Because Renegade is better in nearly everything of these aspects. Renegade even shares the heal and elite skill with teammates.
Tbh i would support Quickness or alac for Herald because it has poor healing and Renegade is not the spec that was meant as alac, Herald is the boon support and not Renegade.
Also they nerf Core Revenant in each patch and buff Renegade then. Thats a general nerf for Herald.

I also think it was really useless from anet to give mirage alac while chrono is the supporter for alac and quickness....It is almost similar to Herald and Renegade.

Herald was meant to be a tank and boon supporter with a bit access to condi dps, power dps and healing.
And then we have Renegade that was meant to be Condi and Power dps but that is now better in boon support because of the top tier boon alac, has access to perma might and shares the heal and elite skill that gives a massive healing boost, but i am not sure if the healing is better overall tho.
But still Renegade is of course better in sustain, power dps and also condi dps.
So Renegade is better in everything except MAYBE healing. Herald cant even good keep 25 might, and if it can, it needs too long to stack up to 25. Fury is granted by nearly every class anyway. Protection can also be granted by Renegade perm. The might needs too long to stack up. The Regeneration the only good boon as Herald to be honest in that case and it is even more part of healing than boon support.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

31 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Interesting how you came to that conclusion after this whole thread. First post I wrote: a better idea is more might stacking (100% boon duration = 14 might right now with Facet of Strength) and/or better alacrity output if you trait salvation for Natural Harmony.
Basically you would trade the prot uptime and CC on Darkrazor for more might.

Consume skills:

• Gaze of Darkness = 15s cooldown ---> 2/15 =  13%
• Burst of Strength = 12s cooldown ---> 2/12 = 16.6%
• Elemental Blast = 10s cooldown ---> 2/10 = 20%
• Chaotic Release = 20s cooldown ---> 2/20 = 10%
• Infuse Light = 30s cooldown ---> 2/30 = 6.6%

Total coverage off cooldown ~66%

With 2s base alacrity output you'd need about 50% boon duration which is basically the same situation as May 11 scrapper. Boon herald in full DPS gear is 28K-30K DPS right now so that doesn't seem that viable as the main profession specific boon Assassin's presence means you'd be closer to 28K versus running Notoriety. It would be roughly 24K DPS.

What about 2.5s base duration similar to scrapper now? You'd need about 20% boon duration and it would be a more reasonable proposal since in fractals you would get that from potions.

Check theory:

• No spotter/empower allies/frost spirit with 50% boon duration on Snowcrows gear optimizer and 150AR + fractal potions is 20,220 versus 21,337 , aka loss of ~5% damage (accuracy sigil disabled because fractals)
• No spotter/empower allies with 50% boon duration on Snowcrows gear optimizer is 16,817 versus 18,926 , aka loss of ~12% damage plus it uses sigil of accuracy (with accuracy sigil disabled you get 16,657 which is also a loss of 12%)
  No spotter/empower allies with 20% boon duration on Snowcrows gear optimizer is 18,448 versus 18,926 , aka loss of ~3% damage plus it uses sigil of accuracy (with accuracy sigil disabled you get 18,263 which is also a loss of ~4%)

Other thoughts
Druid used to be meta with chrono, do you forget so quickly? The meta changes , right now mantra of solace is busted and that is why firebrand is dominant (CQB/CFB/HB). Without mantra of solace it is more in line with other supports because it won't have <12s cooldown blocks without using any utilities.

How would this help the current situation?
Might: CQB doesn't put out that much might since it doesn't use staff and is near negligible on heal scrapper or StM chrono
Fury: fury isn't covered on quickness scrapper or StM chrono unless you use Pack Rune (not 100% coverage) or a turret in the case of scrapper
Healing: Renegade healing has been made much worse due to soulcleave nerf, whereas elevated compassion doesn't that heal much. HB is used because it is less janky to heal with it than StM chrono and heal scrapper doesn't have the aegis output.

Hat's off to your rev math. I'm more of "brainstorm it now, than adjust it to usability after" type of guy.
Guys like you would be great for the latter part. Now onto things you speak of:

1. alacrity too long - fair enough. After looking closer at the total number of facets (6) and their cooldowns, 1s seems the fair base value, very close to  renegade's traited Orders from Above.  Herald gets much more control over his alacrity (600 radius and each stack applies separately), Renegade gets much lower opportunity costs (still has 4 stack base version without his grandmaster trait, does not need to burn his utility skils just to get it).

2. might stacking - well sure it would be nice, but with banner slaves (who also have banners) and scourges (who also have barriers), it won't exactly "sell" herald for 5 man end game groups as support.

3. ventari alacrity upgrade - nah. That legend needs some love on it's own. One spec literally "fixing" another by altering it's traits has not happened before and let's keep it that way. Each traitline/spec should compete in terms of synergy with elite one on it's own merit and value, not because the elite introduces direct "hotfix" for a particular base spec's traits.
On a side note i hate these "but herald has Ventari's alacrity" arguments. Not herald, but core rev. Which means renegade can get it too, not making it any form of equalizer between the two in terms of alacrity access.

4. I remember druid and chronotank meta well - a hard, teeth smashing proof unique support features equal desirability. Druid's grace of the land and frost spirit provided % damage output boost to party, thus making him meta over other healers who on every other front could compete but not this. The moment it was curbed down to regular might application Druid fell off the throne, hard. Similar story for banner slaves - the banners are unique form of support that cannot be easily replicated or countered by other supports, ergo banner slave is almost always welcomed.

If you're not providing any form of hard to access but highly impactful utility for 5 man groups you get the boot as support.
Scourges have mass ress, barriers and easy boon destruction. Bannerslaves easy might stacking and banners. Firebrands are just plain overloaded and grant great quickness. Alacrigades grand easy 10 man alacrity and has solid offensive support features that don't trip him over in terms of personal dps.

Meanwhile herald while getting a pass for good personal dps when going support (diviner boonherald), still falls flat compared to other supports who pass these two tests as well, but put highly desired, and unique support features on top, something Herald does not. His sales pitch is "I'll boon up full 10 man squad with basic boons so you don't have to!". Well in 5 man content that song is dead..

[felix.2386]

i literally dont know whats the theme for renegade is

they literally decided to give everything to renegade or what..

 

herald needs to be support buffer.

but renegade has the alac..

 

feels so weird. but renegade isnt even dps.

 

maybe they need to make herald tank

and make renegade boon support

and EoD with dps spec

[SeTect.5918]

53 minutes ago, felix.2386 said:

i literally dont know whats the theme for renegade is

they literally decided to give everything to renegade or what..

 

herald needs to be support buffer.

but renegade has the alac..

 

feels so weird. but renegade isnt even dps.

 

maybe they need to make herald tank

and make renegade boon support

and EoD with dps spec

Ayo what. Renegade isnt dps? 

 

Yea i am in with u, they decided to give everything to renegade. 

 

Anet workers: what of these should we give to renegade?

Sustain - oh yes! 

Condi dps - of course!

Power dps - sure!

Group healing - obviously!

Top tier boon - oh yes please! 

 

Aaaand what should we give to Herald?

Sustain - yes but please not that much as renegade, even if it has a shield!

Condi dps - yes but not that much as renegade, even if the theme is dragon!

Power dps - yes but not as much as renegade, because uuuh we dont want it.

Group healing - sure but just so much to maybe hold on with renegade, but just maybe!

Top tier boons - naaaah, Renegade has it Already, so herald doesnt need it.

 

Ayo anet u r drunk? 

[Infusion.7149]

6 hours ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

Hat's off to your rev math. I'm more of "brainstorm it now, than adjust it to usability after" type of guy.
Guys like you would be great for the latter part. Now onto things you speak of:

1. alacrity too long - fair enough. After looking closer at the total number of facets (6) and their cooldowns, 1s seems the fair base value, very close to  renegade's traited Orders from Above.  Herald gets much more control over his alacrity (600 radius and each stack applies separately), Renegade gets much lower opportunity costs (still has 4 stack base version without his grandmaster trait, does not need to burn his utility skils just to get it).

2. might stacking - well sure it would be nice, but with banner slaves (who also have banners) and scourges (who also have barriers), it won't exactly "sell" herald for 5 man end game groups as support.

3. ventari alacrity upgrade - nah. That legend needs some love on it's own. One spec literally "fixing" another by altering it's traits has not happened before and let's keep it that way. Each traitline/spec should compete in terms of synergy with elite one on it's own merit and value, not because the elite introduces direct "hotfix" for a particular base spec's traits.
On a side note i hate these "but herald has Ventari's alacrity" arguments. Not herald, but core rev. Which means renegade can get it too, not making it any form of equalizer between the two in terms of alacrity access.

4. I remember druid and chronotank meta well - a hard, teeth smashing proof unique support features equal desirability. Druid's grace of the land and frost spirit provided % damage output boost to party, thus making him meta over other healers who on every other front could compete but not this. The moment it was curbed down to regular might application Druid fell off the throne, hard. Similar story for banner slaves - the banners are unique form of support that cannot be easily replicated or countered by other supports, ergo banner slave is almost always welcomed.

If you're not providing any form of hard to access but highly impactful utility for 5 man groups you get the boot as support.
Scourges have mass ress, barriers and easy boon destruction. Bannerslaves easy might stacking and banners. Firebrands are just plain overloaded and grant great quickness. Alacrigades grand easy 10 man alacrity and has solid offensive support features that don't trip him over in terms of personal dps.

Meanwhile herald while getting a pass for good personal dps when going support (diviner boonherald), still falls flat compared to other supports who pass these two tests as well, but put highly desired, and unique support features on top, something Herald does not. His sales pitch is "I'll boon up full 10 man squad with basic boons so you don't have to!". Well in 5 man content that song is dead..

Eh you completely missed the point of my post. Herald running draconic echo right now is 0% boon duration from gear.
https://lucky-noobs.com/builds/boon-herald

If it's 2s base duration it needs too much boon duration as running Draconic Echo over Forceful Persistence already leaves it at 28K in full DPS gear.

Banner berserker warrior doesn't put out might unless they run tactics, which isn't meta. Running tactics drops your DPS by about 4K.

Alacrity renegade doesn't need ventari for alacrity and the prevalence of Condi RR shows that it (ventari) wold not be taken anyway because salvation isn't that great. Soulcleave nerf on top of that means it is not a strong heal outside ventari.

Assassin's Presence is also a profession specific boon, so is True Nature in Shiro.

Edited June 5, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Obtena.7952]

20 hours ago, SeTect.5918 said:

However i did not read all the comments up before so i have still 1 or some questions: Do you just disagree the quickness for Herald or do u fully disagree a Herald buff (whatever it would be: dps, sustain, heal or support)?
 

Based on the reasons SO FAR, Yes and Yes. 

Edited June 5, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

13 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Eh you completely missed the point of my post. Herald running draconic echo right now is 0% boon duration from gear.
https://lucky-noobs.com/builds/boon-herald

If it's 2s base duration it needs too much boon duration as running Draconic Echo over Forceful Persistence already leaves it at 28K in full DPS gear.

Banner berserker warrior doesn't put out might unless they run tactics, which isn't meta. Running tactics drops your DPS by about 4K.

Alacrity renegade doesn't need ventari for alacrity and the prevalence of Condi RR shows that it (ventari) wold not be taken anyway because salvation isn't that great. Soulcleave nerf on top of that means it is not a strong heal outside ventari.

Assassin's Presence is also a profession specific boon, so is True Nature in Shiro.

Yeah I kinda did. Figures since my goal is different. I want Herald to get superior utility.
The damage train is strong. Look at any raid/fractal/dragon response group comp.
"Take as much dps as you can, while as much healing and support as you must"

Renegade is an offensive support. This dps should be high (for a support, he currently overperforms) and his offensive boons easy to use and relatively non-obtrusive to his own dps rotation. Where the issue lies is that he also gets some defensive support that is questionable (party protection, solid lifesteal) to his role, and a 10 man top tier boon (alacrity), which is not given to Herald, the boon centric defense support spec.

Defensive supports lack in damage and offensive buffs compared to their offense counterparts. Therefore they not only need to match, but surpass them in utility they provide. And not just through quantity but most of all, quality. Herald has tons of small buffs, but none of them match 10 man alacrity combined with easy might stacking and high personal dps.

Your suggestion is simple - make his baseline duration for alac sufficient to cover his group without having to invest in concentration. But that feels ...too renegade for me. I feel Herald should differ here. Renegade getting his utility outta the box, while Herald getting far superior scaling from defensive/support stats like healing power and concentration, as well as access to new forms of defensive support in return for giving up a damage oriented grandmaster trait.

Something like:
Pure zerk Herald - 32k dps, no alacrity, basic boonshare to 10 allies
Boon Diviner Herald - Diviner gear - 26k dps, huge boon uptime (easy 100% uptime for his base facet boons). Access to alacrity and new defensive features for saving parties - 600 radius aoe stunbreaks, barrier and resistance. These not being constantly applied ofc, but on demand panic buttons with reasonable cooldowns (like 20s).

Hybrid Herald - mix of damage and healing power + concentration. Think plaguedoctor with smart rune/food choices, or wanderer gear with some precision and ferocity gear mixed in.  20k dps, very solid boon duration, albeit smaller than diviner obviously, alacrity included. Around 1k group healing per second for party (with elevated compassion) , same panic buttons as above examples.


For now these are not possible as herald is missing key defensive support components and and better scaling with healing power and concentration. These are the herald support variants asides pure dedicated ventari/glint healer I'd like to see.
Especially with emphasis on having panic buttons to get party outta the thick and ability to provide solid regeneration type healing channeling Glint without having to go for 2k healing power to get anything that remotely resembles results...

- on demand panic aoe barrier. Not constant one like scourge, just a panic button like warrior's warhorn.

Few loose ideas of new supportive features herald could get (especially when channeling glint):
- aoe stunbreak

- aoe resistance and/or resolution. Both boons, both defensive. Herald lacks them because...????

- aoe single barrier application, with moderate base shield value but potent healing power scaling
- 5 man alacrity that with concentration investment has same potential as renegade's traited Orders from Above.
- passive trait that incrases gains from concenration you have. Herald is the boon profession. Make him unique in the way of getting better mileage from his favourite stat, letting him put on more non-concenration pieces for same results.
- impactful Facet of Nature upkeep skills. Who's gonna pay nasty 2 energy upkeep for shiro's pitiful lifesteal with 1/2s icd and non existent healing power scaling? That's a passive trait level value, not something that has an ongoing main resource cost!

So yeah, that's how I'd see hearald perform when he's actually brought up to level of relevance as a support.
 

 

[Infusion.7149]

12 minutes ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

Yeah I kinda did. Figures since my goal is different. I want Herald to get superior utility.
The damage train is strong. Look at any raid/fractal/dragon response group comp.
"Take as much dps as you can, while as much healing and support as you must"

Renegade is an offensive support. This dps should be high (for a support, he currently overperforms) and his offensive boons easy to use and relatively non-obtrusive to his own dps rotation. Where the issue lies is that he also gets some defensive support that is questionable (party protection, solid lifesteal) to his role, and a 10 man top tier boon (alacrity), which is not given to Herald, the boon centric defense support spec.

Defensive supports lack in damage and offensive buffs compared to their offense counterparts. Therefore they not only need to match, but surpass them in utility they provide. And not just through quantity but most of all, quality. Herald has tons of small buffs, but none of them match 10 man alacrity combined with easy might stacking and high personal dps.

Your suggestion is simple - make his baseline duration for alac sufficient to cover his group without having to invest in concentration. But that feels ...too renegade for me. I feel Herald should differ here. Renegade getting his utility outta the box, while Herald getting far superior scaling from defensive/support stats like healing power and concentration, as well as access to new forms of defensive support in return for giving up a damage oriented grandmaster trait.

Something like:
Pure zerk Herald - 32k dps, no alacrity, basic boonshare to 10 allies
Boon Diviner Herald - Diviner gear - 26k dps, huge boon uptime (easy 100% uptime for his base facet boons). Access to alacrity and new defensive features for saving parties - 600 radius aoe stunbreaks, barrier and resistance. These not being constantly applied ofc, but on demand panic buttons with reasonable cooldowns (like 20s).

Hybrid Herald - mix of damage and healing power + concentration. Think plaguedoctor with smart rune/food choices, or wanderer gear with some precision and ferocity gear mixed in.  20k dps, very solid boon duration, albeit smaller than diviner obviously, alacrity included. Around 1k group healing per second for party (with elevated compassion) , same panic buttons as above examples.


For now these are not possible as herald is missing key defensive support components and and better scaling with healing power and concentration. These are the herald support variants asides pure dedicated ventari/glint healer I'd like to see.
Especially with emphasis on having panic buttons to get party outta the thick and ability to provide solid regeneration type healing channeling Glint without having to go for 2k healing power to get anything that remotely resembles results...

- on demand panic aoe barrier. Not constant one like scourge, just a panic button like warrior's warhorn.

Few loose ideas of new supportive features herald could get (especially when channeling glint):
- aoe stunbreak

- aoe resistance and/or resolution. Both boons, both defensive. Herald lacks them because...????

- aoe single barrier application, with moderate base shield value but potent healing power scaling
- 5 man alacrity that with concentration investment has same potential as renegade's traited Orders from Above.
- passive trait that incrases gains from concenration you have. Herald is the boon profession. Make him unique in the way of getting better mileage from his favourite stat, letting him put on more non-concenration pieces for same results.
- impactful Facet of Nature upkeep skills. Who's gonna pay nasty 2 energy upkeep for shiro's pitiful lifesteal with 1/2s icd and non existent healing power scaling? That's a passive trait level value, not something that has an ongoing main resource cost!

So yeah, that's how I'd see hearald perform when he's actually brought up to level of relevance as a support.
 

 

Why would anyone run diviner gear in fractals on a herald when it isn't necessary?

Also condi herald isn't going to be well supported in any mode right now, since you don't have a weapon swap you're completely reliant on Mallyx. Why play something that is utterly suboptimal for PvE when condi renegade is a top tier condi class?

If you played herald since its inception you would know it lost the stunbreak on legend swap. As such I doubt that it would get AoE stunbreak. Since splits are only numerical this would also break competitive modes.

AoE resistance is applied via Mallyx.

Barrier application doesn't really seem necessary when there's facet of light as well as superspeed/prot on facet of chaos, the barrier would need to be quite large for it to be even worth taking. In WvW , warriors' cunning makes this a liability actually.

There's already a concentration and health bonus just for running herald. The base traitline is not a huge issue.

A far more glaring issue for Herald or revenants running ventari is a lack of stunbreak.

Edited June 5, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

I actually got very good results with plaguedoctor herald in Whisper of Jormag strike (so not a faceroll content).
It's dps output is ofc subpar to renegade, yes. But the full raid boon coverage is worth it. Plaguedoctor provides good condi damage which with rune of tormenting does not lag so far behind pure condi herald values.

Thanks to boon duration i could give my squad full boon coverage even when switching over to mallyx - before boons (especially protection) expired i was back to glint and re-applying.

Lastly the large healthpool from plaguedoctor ensured I did not go down easily, keeping me on my feet and by extension my squad on it's feet. Bit of healing power to make the regen healing bit more valuable was nice too, though in that regard Glint really underperforms if you ask me.

As for weaponswap the solution is simple - mace on both sets! One had shield offhand for defense, other axe offhand for some extra condi and fast teleport to boss, to minimize dps downtime.

Edited June 5, 2021 by ZeftheWicked.3076

[Infusion.7149]

Not sure why you run herald over druid , scourge, or tempest in WoJ ...
Scourge is 100% win rate if people know the mechanics due to wurm strat.
Anyway elevated compassion getting higher healing is probably a better suggestion if you want herald to be a defensive support (more might is better if you want it to be an offensive support).

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

2 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Not sure why you run herald over druid , scourge, or tempest in WoJ ...

For the very reason this thread exists - because I like Herald and I want to support with him.
And I look forward to day no support will have to explain their profession choice because all will be equally impactful when played to their strengths,

 

[Obtena.7952]

19 minutes ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

For the very reason this thread exists - because I like Herald and I want to support with him.
And I look forward to day no support will have to explain their profession choice because all will be equally impactful when played to their strengths,

 

You're going to be waiting a long time because the need for all support classes to be equally impactful when played to their strengths doesn't exist. I don't even see how anyone could even objectively measure that to claim they achieved it or not. 

[Infusion.7149]

You could have run full power DPS gear (or even marauder) instead of condition damage though , especially given that revenants running dance of death have high sustain already and herald has +10% maximum health on top of that. Plaguedoctor doesn't really make sense because you can't tank on WoJ , there's no toughness or fixate based mechanic and that stat combo has a severe lack of expertise. Condi revenants use more than one main condition even if the torment is the main condition (~45%), which is why it is not an ideal stat combination.

Condi herald and power herald are more or less the same damage in melee. With power herald at least you can swap to hammer at last 25% orb phase , whereas with condi herald you basically are relegated to not being able to hit if orbs are coming out in bulk.

If someone is complaining about your build it isn't due to lack of support, there's little reason to be running such a weird stat combo for revenant. What kind of DPS are you even getting with full standardized boons? If a full viper condi herald is getting ~ 29K it really can't be good.

If the only qualifier is "I didn't die" then the herald hand kite running full harrier gear would work too , plus probably provide more group support since it runs salvation and ventari legend.

This is similar to the scenario of people playing druid in WvW and then say that they are effective because "they lived to tell the tale". If you don't have metrics it's just pure conjecture.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

You underestimate condi herald. With only 2 main conditions to output (burning and torment), expertise is not that critical to get.
Corruption line will provide 25% base condi duration for all damaging condies. Rune of tormenting will give torment 50% bonus duration. So already 75% outta 100 possible for main condi (torment) and 25% for burning.
Sigil of Malice + Smoldering and we're on 85% torment and 55% burning duration.
There is food that grants 15% bonus burn duration = 70% burn duration.

185% torment duration vs 200% maximum possible is not that huge of a gap.
Similar for 170% burning duration vs 200% max.

All that with a large healthpool and comfy 50% boon duration simply by having plaguedoctor and herald traitline minor traits.

Can you do it better? Dance around boss with more dps and 0 bonus defense stats? Yes you can. But i'm the type that's not about making perfect plays, but builds that let you make some mistakes and keep your allies alive when they do'em. I'm not looking to be perfect, i'm looking to enable myself and non perfect teams to get the job done.

Edited June 5, 2021 by ZeftheWicked.3076

[Infusion.7149]

Because you are just putting anecdotes, here's some help to gauge your build by yourself...
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/strike/woj

The median scourge is doing about 19K DPS if they don't run blood magic.
The median renegade is doing more than that.

For this log for example, the scourge is likely running blood magic as they ressed 6 times (without being on top of the person) , have 1 healing power rank, and used wurm as well https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/20210526-225449_woj_kill

Given WoJ in particular values resses more than healing due to both the chains and green circle mechanic , scourge is the best choice. I've ran HB and CQB there before and no build has given me as much consistency as full condi scourge with blood magic.

Your running plaguedoctor on herald is similar to running carrion on core guardian not in PVP. You can do it but why when you have one of the strongest specs at your disposal?

If it comes down to "I want to play herald" , then it doesn't need buffs.

Edited June 5, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

Pretty sure leading WoJ squads with said build (plaguedoctor herald) multiple times is not "anecdote".
I'm not claiming that is the best, absolute way to do it as a Herald. But it is definitely a way, a very stable one.
And I don't speak websites or dps tools, I speak of personal, hands on experience.

Fat boon uptime along with juicy healthpool mean you can calmly focus on dps rotation and boss mechanics. Proper build ensures long condi durations as described above with juicy self healing thanks to rune of tormenting. Herald is very consistent at what he does, be it boonshare, regen healing or dpsing. So even if not highest, your personal dps is not as prone to interruptions and pretty consistent. And there's the small healing from facet of light which while not gamechanging, is always a small contribution, making use of that heling power minor that's in the mix.

Last time i recall GW2's selling point was "play your way" not "play the way sheets tell you to"

[Infusion.7149]

Define fat boon uptime? What numerically does that even mean?

What does "long condition duration" even mean?

You're using descriptive phrases that have no root in numbers , which is why this thread is so shoddy. They're not going to balance based on feelings.

edit: also you can "play your way" , just don't expect them to balance around "your way"

If they implement herald quickness then what's stopping someone with your mindset from saying "I want to play core revenant" next month and make a thread asking for quickness on core revenant, it would be a never ending pointless cycle. Not to mention it would break competitive modes in the process.

Edited June 5, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

I gave you condi duration numbers already.
185% torment duration, 170% burn duration, and implied 35% poison duration. Well if you tryhard they can go higher, but i'm talking normal player scenario.

I don't have exact number on "long boon uptime", but it's long enough to go into full Mallyx swap (10s minimum) and still retain all Glint boons on the squad especially the protection. In fact you can stay in mallyx form longer, which means more dps, since he's the one doing most damage.

[Jijimuge.4675]

16 hours ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

Corruption line will provide 25% base condi duration for all damaging condies. Rune of tormenting will give torment 50% bonus duration. So already 75% outta 100 possible for main condi (torment) and 25% for burning.
Sigil of Malice + Smoldering and we're on 85% torment and 55% burning duration.
There is food that grants 15% bonus burn duration = 70% burn duration.

185% torment duration vs 200% maximum possible is not that huge of a gap.
Similar for 170% burning duration vs 200% max.

Just a quick FYI., though perhaps a bit of a side issue.  If you're factoring in "Pact of Pain" from Corruption, this trait effectively allows one to exceed the normal 200% max duration for conditions - it's an increase to the base duration of condis apparently.  I'm not too familiar with revenant, but I did a quick test and it does seem to work this way as far as I can tell.

 

The post from Virdo in this thread explains -

 

[Obtena.7952]

15 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

edit: also you can "play your way" , just don't expect them to balance around "your way"

If they implement herald quickness then what's stopping someone with your mindset from saying "I want to play core revenant" next month and make a thread asking for quickness on core revenant, it would be a never ending pointless cycle. Not to mention it would break competitive modes in the process.

Very true. But remember, the goal here is this ... 

 

20 hours ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

I want Herald to get superior utility.

The appeal to balance is actually just a massive ruse. He doesn't care how or why his idea happens ... just as long as it does happen. It's easy for people to complain about 'balance' to justify getting things they want. The hard part is when their reasoning is exposed as unsound. 

 

There are no 'numbers' to justify quickness boon share on Herald because adding such a thing is a conceptual level consideration based on class theme. Again ... playing with numbers here is just a ruse. 

Edited June 6, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

Oh no, the jig is up! And I thought I covered my tracks so well 😞

Now my evil plan of making herald balanced with renegade by one getting superior damage and other utility is revealed and exposed:/ There goes all my credibility...

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

4 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Very true. But remember, the goal here is this ... 

 

The appeal to balance is actually just a massive ruse. He doesn't care how or why his idea happens ... just as long as it does happen. It's easy for people to complain about 'balance' to justify getting things they want. The hard part is when their reasoning is exposed as unsound. 

 

There are no 'numbers' to justify quickness boon share on Herald because adding such a thing is a conceptual level consideration based on class theme. Again ... playing with numbers here is just a ruse. 

Anyone with opinion different to yours is apparently out to manipulate innocent minds of other players and has a dark agenda!

We all know that the four horsemen are coming the moment a-net gives Herald some love, and he actually becomes a respected and widely accepted pick in end game 5 man content!

Edited June 6, 2021 by ZeftheWicked.3076

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

... a-net gives Herald some love, and he actually becomes a viable and accepted pick in end game 5 man content!

That doesn't make sense ... Herald is viable and people do use it in endgame instanced content. If herald has a problem with meeting Anet's expectations for being played, they will change it ... and hopefully they don't give it quickness boon share for many of the reasons that people provided, including the two I had. 

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

I've switched it to alacrity (so same as renegade) some time ago...just so we don't have now 2 mandatory revs in 5 man groups.
Your definition of "people" is a bit obscure here. Let's say it clearly - static/guild groups may use him so your herald buddy does not feel left out, or he can squeeze himself (just barely with 30k dps tops in newest benchmarks) into dps slots.

I speak of what most players deal with - Pugs and HFB+alac (and often bannerslave) team comp requirement. So either you bring your herald as bargain bin dps (rene does 41k and too has support options even when full dps build), or something changes...

Edited June 6, 2021 by ZeftheWicked.3076