Suggestion: WvW Pip System Redesign

[ArchonWing.9480]

Eh, sorry OP, these are some pretty poor ideas. Too complicated and arbitrary because they focus on specific groups and people. Also treat outnumbered as a bonus; stop obsessing over it.

 

IMO:

+1 extra loyalty pip  for finishing Gold last week and +1 for finishing Mithril last week

Can earn up to 500 tickets per week, adjust chests as needed

Let us buy certain things with just tickets.

 

I think getting people to get Gold every week seems like a decent goal, without requiring it to be a job.

Edited June 4, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[knite.1542]

23 hours ago, Ernedar.2937 said:

Outnumbered pips: Gain reduction from 5 to 3 pips. Here is why. Right now it is so big amount that some people are just slacking in maps and waiting for ticks to land just because for every person under lvl 619 it will double the amount of gain and reduce time spend in half. So current scenario is, I have GW2 opened, waiting in map. Every 5 minutes I will take a camp and reset the timer and in mean time I am doing something else entirely. It is boring, it should stop and it should not support people doing this. I totally understand why they are doing it tho. Current system is not friend to newcomers at all.

 

Arbitrarily lowering the value from 5 to 3 isn't going to stop people from hunting for outnumbered pips; it's still a bonus. I am not exactly sure what your desired outcome with that change would be, but if it's to stop outnumbered pip hunting, the only way to do that would be to remove the buff altogether.

 

That being said, I don't see that having any sort of positive change to the game mode. People that are putting in minimum effort aren't going to suddenly start putting in more effort because the outnumbered bonus is gone.

[TigerWind.9408]

I believe what we need is reward to motivate players to actually do something in WvW, since a person who simply reset timer every 5-10 min can gain same amount of reward track progress and pip as another one who roaming all around and slaughter enemies as a god; a person follows a squad and simply spam his skill1 can gain same reward track progress and pip as someone who contribute the most to the squad.. I see a lot of people saying FUN is enough, you can gain them slowly with a path you prefer. However, no matter how fun some content start with, it will get boring as you play it over and over again, reward for motivation is a common approach to accommodate such issue.(Updating content constantly is a common alternative approach, but obviously nowadays Anet is capable of doing so) 

My suggestion is that current reward system can serve as the base reward, for those who are not that good at fighting against alive players or new to WvW. Then player will gain extra reward track and pip progress when they have done something, like killing enemy players/capture point/doing damage to enemies(in case you are dueling against some morons that are super tanky but can hardly do damage to you, for example). I know this may encourage unexpected scenario like "You kill me freely first, then let me kill you freely next", but it is kind of nature for pvp games with such reward system, and amount of such activities can be reduced if managed appropriately. For example, baning players with those activities or set a cap or reward decay for such reward gain(either based on time interval or point or players)

Edited June 4, 2021 by TigerWind.9408

[Manasa Devi.7958]

1 hour ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Yes I am. I am concerned about the game mode, not just the rewards. I am establishing that changes made to appease players who ONLY focus on the reward might be damaging to the game mode.

 

In that regard, are you sure you are in the correct thread?

 

You don't seem concerned about the game mode, you seem only concerned about my attitude because that's all you're talking about. Let's get one thing out of the way then: I don't give a rodent's rectum about the game mode as it is now. I just can't help but be curious about the issue of rewards because they've been a sick joke for as long as I remember. Like the 67 weeks of dedicated play it takes to get single ascended armor set.

1 hour ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

So in short: this game mode is not any longer for you. So again: why should your opinion carry weight over that of players who do enjoy the mode?

 

The way I see it: You have distanced yourself so far that the healthiest thing would be to quit. You decide not to because your desire for the "rewards" outperforms your unhappiness with the game mode. I merely am expressing concerns that balancing anything for this game mode around this kind of player or approach could be very damaging.

 

Why would I care if my opinion carries weight? If that was a consideration for posting, these forums wouldn't have 1% of the posts they have. I'm not unhappy about the game mode, I just don't care about it. Newsflash: this kind of players approach is very common. I see the same names all the time, doing exactly what I do. Dozens of them. This is what the game mode has become. If you were concerned about the game mode, you'd champion changes to it that make this approach to it go away instead of hounding me.

1 hour ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

and to get back to my original point which you addressed: a lot of players with high ranks are not in your situation. Most will actually quit, especially the ones slightly beyond you because they would already have the tickets needed (as you are constantly claiming that you are gone at that point yourself).

It may come as a surprise, but I prefer to address my own situation and not that of others.

1 hour ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

You are a niche within a niche, a player who sticks around to get his "goal" done but actually does not enjoy the game mode any more. Most will have quit far before, if they do not value the reward enough to "suffer" through this content, or quit after having gained the reward needed.

 

As such you are the least representative of high rank (if we want to call rank 2k high) players active in the game mode. Which is what my original claim was.

But I haven't stuck around. I don't consider what I'm doing playing WvW. I never "suffered" at any point, I just stopped playing when I lost interest. When I did play frequently and actively, I didn't play for rewards, because there were none worth mentioning. I played because I enjoyed it. The current rewards, though still pathetic (like the 67 week armor sets) are heaps better than they were when I was active. And then ANet added rewards I can't feasibly get in any other way, and the only thing you need to do to "earn" them is to spend time in the game, doing pretty much nothing at all. So, I spend time in the game doing pretty much nothing at all. I find that a pretty good deal. If this kind of game design is something you feel you need to protect, that's your call, and I fully support you in that. I won't be arguing against receiving rewards for nothing.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Manasa Devi.7958

[Cyninja.2954]

23 minutes ago, Manasa Devi.7958 said:

You don't seem concerned about the game mode, you seem only concerned about my attitude because that's all you're talking about.

I am just about as concerned about your attitude as far as it extends to you addressing something I said. My original post was not addressed to you. You commented on it. All my replies were in relation to that initial interaction which your post started.

 

You merely fit the description of something I refereed to: one type of player who plays for only the rewards. Everything beyond that I really do not care about because it fits exactly with what I had said in my initial comment. I do not believe that balancing around such players is of a benefit.

 

I've tried to explain this via both in-game examples both in regards to what you said as well as to what I have perceived. As far as any other attitude you might have, I really could care less or not at all tbh.

 

Edited June 4, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Manasa Devi.7958]

6 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

I am just about as concerned about your attitude as far as it extends to your addressing something I said. My original post was not addressed to you. You commented on it. All my replies were in relation to that initial interaction which your post started.

 

You merely fit the description of something I refereed to: one type of player who plays for only the rewards. Everything beyond that I really do not care about because it fits exactly with what I had said in my initial comment. I do not believe that balancing around such players is of a benefit.

 

I've tried to explain this via both in-game examples both in regards to what you said as well as to what I have perceived. As far as any other attitude you might have, I really could care less or not at all tbh.

 

I just wanted to give a counterpoint to your "If you think that a player still cares about tickets past rank 2k or 3k to go through "farming" specifically tickets, you are delusional" statement. If I had known you'd go on a rampage making all kinds of assumptions about me, I wouldn't have bothered and saved us both a lot of time.

[Cyninja.2954]

9 minutes ago, Manasa Devi.7958 said:

I just wanted to give a counterpoint to your "If you think that a player still cares about tickets past rank 2k or 3k to go through "farming" specifically tickets, you are delusional" statement. If I had known you'd go on a rampage making all kinds of assumptions about me, I wouldn't have bothered and saved us both a lot of time.

I was working only off of what you yourself said, even if you did a lot of back and forth in clarifying what you actually meant.

 

As is, that point still stands. I said between 2k and 3k. You won't even be close to 3k by the time you have your tickets or at the very least be done needing them by the time you reach 3k. I could have also gone with 3-4k, to make sure I filter out any players who grind for months on who do not enjoy the game mode (which I still do not believe to be in a vast majority). Didn't think that was necessary because of how niche this group of players would be.

 

So all you did was literally just facilitate my point via your own example, because you are falling exactly into my approximated WvW rank range (approximated because I passed that rank and the associated tickets a long time ago, just guessing off the top of my head) and will eventually drop out when you have the tickets (aka not be visible in WvW any longer) or not care about tickets any more (aka pips) while continuing to play. Exactly the point I made to refute one of TCs claims.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Manasa Devi.7958]

4 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

I was working only off of what you yourself said, even if you did a lot of back and forth in clarifying what you actually meant.

 

As is, that point still stands. I said between 2k and 3k. You won't even be close to 3k by the time you have your tickets or at the very least be done needing them by the time you reach 3k. I could have also gone with 3-4k, to make sure I filter out any players who grind for months on who do not enjoy the game mode (which I still do not believe to be in a vast majority). Didn't think that was necessary because of how niche this group of players would be.

 

So all you did was literally just facilitate my point via your own example, because you are falling exactly into my approximated WvW rank range and will eventually drop out when you have the tickets (aka not be visible in WvW any longer) or not care about tickets any more (aka pips) while continuing to play. Exactly the point I made.

Sure, I'll be gone as soon as I'm satisfied. If the current situatiion with my server (Gandara) persists, it might be quite soon actually. Two weeks of 90% of all my ticks being with the Outnumbered buff, no exaggeration. A great ticket/hour ratio. I might be back when something happens to make the game mode more interesting, or when ANet adds more rewards. The latter is more likely, it's all they do to entice people to have a go.

 

And also sure, you made your point, and I made mine. I'd feel better about it if it hadn't included words like "burn out", "grinding", "wasting time" and the like.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Not going to read through 2 pages, but here is my 2 copper.

 

The pip system itself is fine, what is needed is for when the current skirmish ends you gain gold and pips based on score placement with the added caveat that you need to have gained credit on an event or player kill to get the reward per skirmish. The last part is to force players to actively contribute, you could also require T6 participation.

 

How much gold and pips? 2.5g/5g/10g based on placement and 10/15/20 pips based on placement.

[Cyninja.2954]

10 minutes ago, Manasa Devi.7958 said:

Sure, I'll be gone as soon as I'm satisfied. If the current situatiion with my server (Gandara) persists, it might be quite soon actually. Two weeks of 90% of all my ticks being with the Outnumbered buff, no exaggeration. A great ticket/hour ratio. I might be back when something happens to make the game mode more interesting, or when ANet adds more rewards. The latter is more likely, it's all they do to entice people to have a go.

 

And also sure, you made your point, and I made mine. I'd feel better about it if it hadn't included words like "burn out", "grinding", "wasting time" and the like.

Sure, also notice that this was not aimed at you. You clarified that you do not feel burnt out but rather distanced due to other reasons. That is very well possible, balance patches change the game, servers get relinked every 8 weeks, communities dissolve and recreate, etc. etc. I was just using general terms, maybe a bit to directed at you when in fact I simply wanted to just capture as big a frame as possible of disenfranchised players who leave the mode. That was also never the primary point I tried to make. My bad if you felt as though this was aimed at you personally.

 

I do not judge why someone leaves or stops playing (and subjectively they are always right because it is their decision) though I will hope for them to return or issues to get addressed if they are widespread. My point was merely that the claim made that players who reach diamond chest quit for the rest of the week does not universally have to be true and in fact does not make sense before and past a certain point of WvW rank, or pips per week.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

@Ernedar.2937 nothing to say other than the loot is crap and if u really play, u have it done on sunday-monday for the matchup, on pretty much any server.

 

Wvw isn't a farming simulator either way, simply bc the overall loot is garbage for the invested time.

 

no offense, but rank 500ish is pretty tiny still. i play now since 2019 and got 2600+ ranks. and ranks are yet not very rewarding. the masteries stop extremly early...

and this low average amount may be due to the alt accounts which numerous players have. some even more than one. and some of these are yet over 500 xD i feel rather offended that Anet devalues the Wvw-legendary armor by setting their rankcap to 500 only.

 

i technically could make legendary Wvw armor, but i see no real worth in it. i just farm the full sets of all mistforged ascended armors instead of wasting my time with pointless legy armor.

 

overall, the loot is only good if u have a strong guild that farms kills for filling rewards tracks faster and these PIP-tracks just autofill. u'll never even notice them when u really play. if u're doing it only by ppt or smallscale stuff, i guess it must be boring surely. but yeah, that isn't the point of Wvw.

[Gorani.7205]

WvW reward system is flawed and the player that has "little time" and does not "play the system" is penalized. That is the core problem. Let me elaborate:

Individual Success < Server Success

With changing server links and being one person on a map with perhaps 100 other players (I don't know the current map limit), the current server status (e.g. ranked 1st over 3rd), which you are not able to influence (unless you really "bandwagon" for that), has a much larger impact on your pips that what you can do individually in a match up week. It is true, that a high enough rank does equalize the extra pips every 5 minutes, but you need several hundreds/thousands of WvW ranks to compensate (=> look at the limited time issue).

Successful Servers lead to less individual rewards at next match up

If you server did well in the current match up and you climb into a higher tier, you will very likely get less pips next match up, because then you have a high chance of being the "weaker server" in that match up. The individual player kind of gets less out of being the less successful server, even if he plays "the same" every time.

Skirmish tickets increase in a curve with a gradient

The "5 min" game (so each tick) time is not worth the same for every player, when you convert it to pips. Going from 0-100 pips earns you 17 tickets. Going from 820 to 920 will earn you 26 tickets (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Skirmish_reward_track_pips_vs_tickets.png) . That discrepancy can be even higher, when you tweak the numbers and thresholds slightly (e.g. going from 0-101 will still be 17 tickets, but going from 819-920, which will have earned you 42 tickets). PvE map bonus materials for each event are the same for everyone, if that has been you first hour of game play or you 24th hour. 

Skirmish tickets only come from chests

People that play on a limited time budget already have WvW currencies that do not get used and that come from normal game play. Other WvW currencies, like Badges or Emblems of the Avenger/Conquerer can not be converted to tickets and are left a "dead currency". Tech and mechanics exist in game to e.g. allow us to have a daily/weekly vendor to turn those currencies into the much needed tickets. There is no account augmentation, like for fractals, that we could use to increase Karma gain, WxP gain and ticket gain in WvW. WvW Guild missions could reward tickets too, if they have been tweaked (remove the 3 member limit on all, except the keep and tower ones).

 

As long as there are no changes to the problems listed above, acquisition of tickets will always be a problem for those with limited WvW time.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Gorani.7205

[Janke.1358]

I agree with some things, but I am totally against these squards/group changes. WwW has 2 main problems currently, too many servers (NA) and few active players, squads that are in WvW to simply bag farm (disguised pve) while enemies take it all. Raising pips for this type of group is just alleviating the problem and rewarding this type of player.

 

WvW needs rewards that encourage disputes to increase the tier of its server, there has to be a complete rework to also avoid those kangaroo players who are jumping from link to link. For this, ArenaNet has to put something that is worth staying on the server and improve the population.

 

Edited June 4, 2021 by Janke.1358

[XenesisII.1540]

6 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Not going to read through 2 pages, but here is my 2 copper.

 

The pip system itself is fine, what is needed is for when the current skirmish ends you gain gold and pips based on score placement with the added caveat that you need to have gained credit on an event or player kill to get the reward per skirmish. The last part is to force players to actively contribute, you could also require T6 participation.

 

How much gold and pips? 2.5g/5g/10g based on placement and 10/15/20 pips based on placement.

 

And you think that isn't going to promote server stacking?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

10 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

 

And you think that isn't going to promote server stacking?

No.

 

You can't gain pips for two resets after hopping servers so there is already a built in disincentive for bandwagon behavior in regards to the skirmish track.

 

Those that already hop servers are not doing it for pips, they are doing it for other reasons, mainly for matchup and fight reasons. That and the gold reward I mentioned isn't high enough of a return per hour to justify the gem cost.

[XenesisII.1540]

20 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

No.

 

You can't gain pips for two resets after hopping servers so there is already a built in disincentive for bandwagon behavior in regards to the skirmish track.

 

Those that already hop servers are not doing it for pips, they are doing it for other reasons, mainly for matchup and fight reasons. That and the gold reward I mentioned isn't high enough of a return per hour to justify the gem cost.

 

You think losing pips for a week is enough of a deterrent, and yet stated people moving don't care about pips...

 

So the ones who don't care about pips are probably going to be the veterans, who can make up gem cost for every relink easily with the 10g per two hours, plus all their usually rewards especially if they're mostly zerging. 

 

Although it looks like anet is already stomping on the bandwagon by locking more servers these days, 16 full NA servers, EU up to 7 full, lol.

 

Regardless of our beliefs, anet will not hand out that much liquid gold in two hours anyways. The pips amount is nothing, 20 pips is like two ticks or 10 mins for veterans, and it still needs to feed back to your personal skirmish track to determine the rewards.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

39 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

 

You think losing pips for a week is enough of a deterrent, and yet stated people moving don't care about pips...

You missing my points. If someone were to move because of pips, the 2 reset prohibition on gaining pips again is itself a deterrent. Additionally, the group of people who bandwagon already aren't doing it because of pips, they are doing it for other reasons and won't even care about how rewards are changed.

39 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

So the ones who don't care about pips are probably going to be the veterans, who can make up gem cost for every relink easily with the 10g per two hours, plus all their usually rewards especially if they're mostly zerging. 

 

Although it looks like anet is already stomping on the bandwagon by locking more servers these days, 16 full NA servers, EU up to 7 full, lol.

 

Regardless of our beliefs, anet will not hand out that much liquid gold in two hours anyways. The pips amount is nothing, 20 pips is like two ticks or 10 mins for veterans, and it still needs to feed back to your personal skirmish track to determine the rewards.

10g per skirmish is pocket change in this MMO, its just a bone to throw to the crowd that feel that WvW is not rewarding enough. I can make more gold per hour pugging in FotM.