Teams

[Crab Fear.1624]

How do (most) players get high end fractals done?

How do (most) players get raids done?

How are large wvw battles organized?

What do you have to have to get through an AT?

 

(See the title)

 

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The argument against ranked being team based is weak and seems to be based on the idea that it is difficult to find teams in GW2, and no one wants to be bothered with the effort.

 

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Looking back at the predecessor, the GOAT, GW1 pvp, one can see that the highest levels of pvp required teams, and they were also the most popular. Even the pve-ish pvp Alliance battles required you to from groups of 4 on your own. Perhaps JQ and FA provided that solo queue experience as well as random arenas. 

 

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Prestige was only seen in gvg and ha

 

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Random arenas was a bit more respected, but JQ and FA were just competitive farming....

 

And if you look at execution and objectives...conquest seems to be the child of these two game modes.

 

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For years and 22 seasons pvp has shrank.

 

GVG is all but dead, perhaps alivish in wve, but what is a pvp guild?

Extinct, that's what...

 

---

 

Anonymous, and solo.

 

Someone once said that playing an MMO is like going to the mall. You will see a lot of people, and you want to see them, or at least some of them, but that doesn't mean you want to interact with them at all. You just go because it reaffirms you exist?

 

You log in, and you may have a buddy or two, or a real life pal who plays with you.....or you may be completely alone.

 

You work hard in the game to gain skins and accolades, to show them off to who?

 

To be who will also give you that reciprocal but empty recognition.

 

"Nice armor bro, what's that title?"...yet, as soon as you log off, you are forgotten. 

 

Replaced with someone else's electrons to interact with.

 

------

 

 

You may come here to escape the real world, but truthfully you don't come here to escape interaction, otherwise you could play a plethora of rpgs offline and alone.

 

You will say yes you do, but just by being on an MMO and when asked to defend why, you will find it contradicts your escapist thoughts.

 

----

 

The reality is you forge lasting digital relationships, create buy-in, and promote loyalty to a franchise when you kind of get forced into stressful situations(but rewarding), and go through the pits together, or against.

 

---

 

All the shining things in the world, all the story lines, mounts, and gold....even playable tengu 👀....won't allow you to get out of the shadow of GW1......

 

You need to make more team stuff, and less solo....

 

 

....

 

Years and seasons have proved solo q to be .....unhealthy at best.

 

 

----

 

P.s....

 

It is not too late

 

 

 

Edited June 24, 2021 by Crab Fear.1624

[Crab Fear.1624]

I guess PVE don't care about competition, or cooperative at all.

No such thing except.....

 

https://gw2raidleague.com/leaderboard/

[razaelll.8324]

3 hours ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

The argument against ranked being team based is weak and seems to be based on the idea that it is difficult to find teams

Yea thats why in WoW which have 4-5 times the population of gw2 you search 30 + minutes for a team just to loose 1 game and then start waiting for new one.

 

I am not against teamQ if it is in separated ranked from soloQ , but soloQ should not be removed because it gives much easier access to pvp for many people which dont want to wait in lfg.

 

Before i left WoW i made a small test and i saw that i spend more time in lfg doing nothing than actually playing the game and thats 1 of the main reasons i left , also the  WoW pvp community is asking for soloQ from years.

 

In my opinion teamQ only will reduce even more the pvp population of gw2

Edited June 24, 2021 by razaelll.8324

[Crab Fear.1624]

21 minutes ago, razaelll.8324 said:

Yea thats why in WoW which have 4-5 times the population of gw2 you search 30 + minutes for a team just to loose 1 game and then start waiting for new one.

 

I am not against teamQ if it is in separated ranked from soloQ , but soloQ should not be removed because it gives much easier access to pvp for many people which dont want to wait in lfg.

 

Before i left WoW i made a small test and i saw that i spend more time in lfg doing nothing than actually playing the game and thats 1 of the main reasons i left , also the  WoW pvp community is asking for soloQ from years.

 

In my opinion teamQ only will reduce even more the pvp population of gw2

We are talking about lemons and grapejuice.

 

We have been solo/duo forever...pop didn't grow.

 

New maps...pop didn't grow.

 

New modes, ats....pop didn't grow. 

 

It had a massive exodus on removal of teams, killing off the concept of pvp guilds. 

 

Also many players left when duo above 1600 was removed..

 

The evidence is against solo q....

 

 

 

Is GW2 popular or not?

 

If not, then good riddance.

 

BUt, if it is, you can queue from anywhere and go about your daily stuff.

 

Losing a match, a quality match isn't as bad as being 500-0.

 

I doubt it would be 30 minute queues, like I said, in GW1 it was required and always popping.

 

A test one season could probably dispel one side or the other, especially if it was actually just a "trial", unlike what happened when we had teams.

 

Waiting for quality games is like going to a restaurant, it is better because it is not instant....but we can keep on with the microwave burritos we call pvp if you "believe" it will kill pvp.

 

Can't kill what is already dead.

Edited June 24, 2021 by Crab Fear.1624

[razaelll.8324]

6 minutes ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

We are talking about lemons and grapejuice.

 

Is GW2 popular or not?

 

If not, then good riddance.

 

BUt, if it is, you can queue from anywhere and go about your daily stuff.

 

Losing a match, a quality match isn't as bad as being 500-0.

 

I doubt it would be 30 minute queues, like I said, in GW1 it was required and always popping.

 

A test one season could probably dispel one side or the other, especially if it was actually just a "trial", unlike what happened when we had teams.

 

Waiting for quality games is like going to a restaurant, it is better because it is not instant....but we can keep on with the microwave burritos we call pvp if you "believe" it will kill pvp.

 

Can't kill what is already dead.

I am all up for a test but i dont think that the result will be in favour of teamQ. it is generally much more fun to play with full premade group in voice chat than with randoms, but teamsQ only makes it much harder for new people to get into pvp , and such system has other issues which can be seen in games like WoW which have teamQ only.

 

There is a reason why game which has much bigger population than gw2 has such big wait times in lfg.

 

 

Edited June 24, 2021 by razaelll.8324

[Crab Fear.1624]

3 minutes ago, razaelll.8324 said:

I am all up for a test but i dont think that the result will be in favor of teamQ

I'd like to see it. 

 

If pro-team is wrong, then I would concede, but I can't speak for others.

 

 

-------

 

 

To complain about the same team always being in top....it is that way with MATs

[razaelll.8324]

1 minute ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

I'd like to see it. 

 

If pro-team is wrong, then I would concede, but I can't speak for others.

 

 

-------

 

 

To complain about the same team always being in top....it is that way with MATs

What? Excuse me but i am not sure what do you mean. I never complained about same team being on top.

[Crab Fear.1624]

Just now, razaelll.8324 said:

What? Excuse me but i am not sure what do you mean. I never complained about same team being on top.

That's why there are dashes , means it not part of my response to you.

 

 

[razaelll.8324]

3 minutes ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

That's why there are dashes , means it not part of my response to you.

 

 

Okay

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

I'll explain exactly what it is that produces the weak argument against pvp teams, in an exact order of steps in how it psychologically developed a kind "stigmatic" point of view, that most people in the community hold to this day:

 

1. Back during vanilla when Esports was a thing, everyone was excited about 5 man teams. I don't remember hearing a single person complain about 5 man teams back then. There were all kinds of would-be try hard pvp guilds forming, and this wasn't just strong players either, it was also mediocre to weaker players wanting to get involved.
2. But come to find out, the try hard sweat wasn't just in forming 5 man teams. It quickly became apparent that voice chat was a requirement for a team to get competitive. I cannot stress enough that this is where the original split happened between people who liked organized team play and people who did not -> Some people had absolutely no problem going into a voice chat and they were good at socializing and communicating and getting along with people. Others found that they were awkward or didn't know what to say or maybe they raged too much or couldn't take feeling the frustration of others when hearing other's voices get so salty or maybe they just did NOT want to hear other people talking and would rather listen to mp3s. Either way, it created a divide between players who were willing and wanted to get into voice chats, and others who really began to avoid it. This created an ousting so to say, where players who were not willing to get into voice chat, began to get left out of serious team formations, as well as anyone who didn't exactly jive in the voice chat with everyone else for whatever reason that may have been. These kinds of people were dodged in favor of better personalities. It still happens to this day actually. You'd be surprised what people will tolerate in the /p chat, but they will not tolerate anything in a voice chat that even slightly rubs them the wrong way or is too boring. IE: Two Spellbreakers are both playing at 1500 rating. One of them is a quiet player in the voice chat who rarely speaks at all who prefers to listen, but the other Spellbreaker is loud and funny all of the time. The loud & funny guy will be invited to a group first before the quiet guy almost every time. So people began to identify & associate 5man team organization with voice chat use. For some people this was certainly not a problem, but for others it became a nuisance because they were experiencing unfavorable situations with voice chat use. And so began the big split in ideology of what conquest should be. When you ask them if they are pro or con 5man, they immediately associate that question with forced socialization standards via voice chat, which reminds them of a lot of unnecessary buzz that they'd rather avoid. The idea of disliking 5man teams began here.
3. The above is an oversimplification ^ There are different tiers in which people avoid social stigma. First you have those who don't like 5man teams because they avoid the inevitable "here is our discord". Then you have people who avoid 5man teams because they like to avoid any & all responsibility for their play in general, even if communication is limited to text. Then you have several others who avoid 5man teams because of assumptions they've drawn from the stories of others, or this fear they have of being judged, or plainly just excuses to be anti-social. I heard heard/read some extremely inaccurate conclusions as to why people avoid 5man team play over the years. It's amazing really.
4. The problem with players having a bad point of view of 5man play becomes exasperated during the era of the first new seasonal releases when bronze/silver/gold took over the old amber/sapphire/ruby. The first two seasons of the new format were actually guild team leaderboards if anyone cares to remember. Arenanet also made it during that era that either the top 10 or top 15 teams rated at the end of the season, were the teams who were allowed to participate in the ESL. Before this we only had organized tournaments for try hard teams. This was the first time there was a queue system to queue all day long, that gave try hard teams a reasons to mix queue against everyone else, and not just scrim in preparation for a tournament here and there. Boy oh boy did this rub people the wrong way. And it did not help that Arenanet had not yet added the algorithm function where 3-5 man queues would receive inflated base average MMR adjustments to accommodate the fact that most of them were always in a voice chat. So you had teams of 1550 solo off-voice queueing into teams of 1550 5man on-voice with no algorithm adjustment. Obviously the teams on-voice were winning most of the time and it pissed everyone off. The main psychological effect here, is that it made solo queue players feel like they were being forced to 5man queue or lose, and being forced into discord or lose, with no choice behind a preferred solo or team queue. During this time they had just removed solo/team queue and replaced it with unranked/ranked. We didn't even have ATs yet. So there was only one queue option that pitted all mixed queues together who wanted to complete achievements and play competitively. It is important to note that THIS is where the strong hatred for solo vs. 5man began. It actually began to develop flat out bias where solo advocates in the future would begin to completely ignore any rightful & accurate & justified reasons to reimplement a 5man game mode. But in a way can you blame them after what happened here? There was a lot done wrong with this initial release of guild team leaderboards forcing against mixed queues.
5. At the tail end of the guild team leaderboards and right when solo/duo seasons began, Arenanet did actually implement a new code that added a flat average MMR adjustment to 3 to 5 man organized teams. Essentially what it did is it made it so a 5man team of 1550s would be made to go against a team of solo 1600s, pretty much, and it actually works out rather well for those who have noticed the function in unranked, which is the only place the code is used now. However people don't remember any of this. They only remember the savage farming happening in S1 and S2 from 5man teams in a ranked mode before that code was added. Again, we are talking stigmatic memories of a time long passed, with a reluctance to acknowledge the way things have changed now, and how they could be changed in the future for the better. Now we are talking flat out bias.
6. Now we exist in a world of solo/duo only ranked. To the untrained eye or the apathic eye, it would seem as if this were the most fair way to go about things for several reasons. If I were new to GW2 walking into the scene now, I'm sure I would strongly advocate solo/duo queue over 5man queue in ranked, aaaaaall the way until I started noticing some things were not right here. Simply put, solo/duo only enables synch queue tactics. I don't think newcomers or casuals are quite exactly aware of how much match manipulation happens due to this, whether it is from guys in discord together synching or sometimes guys multi-boxing bots for throwing. Regardless, the solo/duo only format is a lie and a great illusion. What players don't realize is that they are still losing many games to premade teams that they cannot see. IE: The UI looks like their duo is with all solos, and they are against another duo with all solos. But in reality the duo on the RED team has 2 synched players on alts who came into the game and landed on the BLUE team, who are ready to throw the match for the RED duo they are supporting. All 4 of those players are in a discord talking together. This is called win trading and it happens much more frequently than players realize, even by players whom no one would suspect was using these kinds of tactics. Most of them use bots to do it actually, and don't even speak with other players about what they are doing at all. So nothing has changed here. People are still losing games to premade teams. The only difference here is that many people are unable to identify that this is happening, and these terribly lopsided blowout matches that they often experience are attributed to "terrible match making" and "low population" because they don't know any better. And then rather than identifying that being able to select your own 5man team is the only way to stop synch queue throw monkeys landing in your team, they continue to advocate solo/duo only is more fair, because they don't know any better. And then of course there are also those old memories of times long past, the old ESL 5man season 1 & 2 days, where there were no adjustments to 5man team MMR, to further solidify & justify how they feel, because they don't know any better. These players who so strongly advocate solo play need to ask themselves one very serious question: Would you rather lose to an actual team that was outlined and in front of you that you can see who is legitimately outplaying you, or would you rather lose to a team who is manipulating the match and making you lose by making your team throw the match? Think hard about it, as it is a question that should be asked and should be answered.

I can't help but to notice that what we are really looking at here in terms of who supports solo and who supports 5man organized, is a difference in level of awareness. People who are not aware of the depths of what is happening here in the GW2 ranked pvp scene are clearly people who have never went into a discord to see win trading being discussed quite publicly in a chat. They've never sat in a voice chat and listened to people as they performed it, and I'm sure haven't participated in it unless they were unaware it was happening. These kinds of players support solo/duo only because well, on paper it sounds deliciously balanced. But if they knew what was happening, they'd realize they were still against 5man premade teams all the time anyway, and that the only difference at this point in time between solo/duo and 5man organized, is whether or not they are able to SEE the team they are against and have a chance of beating it. The difference is that 5man organized allows players to block themselves from having synch queue throw monkeys on their team. They don't NEED to get into a discord, they can just LFG with other players they recognize, just as easily as they would for a T4 fractals. Let go of the old stigma, a lot has changed. At this point people just want to block themselves from bad joins.

 

People should advocate bringing back some kind of a 5man organized system, as it is the only way to fix the problems that largely plague this game, concerning match manipulation in mass, humans as well as bots. If players really knew, had witnessed with their own eyes, how bad this actually is in GW2 ranked, they would quickly shift their advocacy from pro solo to pro 5man.

 

This stuff is no different than a T4 fractal join guys. Don't make it something it's not.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

22 minutes ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

We have been solo/duo forever...pop didn't grow.

 

New maps...pop didn't grow.

 

New modes, ats....pop didn't grow. 

 

It had a massive exodus on removal of teams, killing off the concept of pvp guilds. 

 

Also many players left when duo above 1600 was removed..

 

The evidence is against solo q....

Not the fairest way to look at things.

 

The evidence isn't really stacked against SoloQ because it has been Solo/DuoQ forever like you say. Not just SoloQ.

 

There's been 1, single, uno 5v5 conquest released in the time of Solo/DuoQ.

 

The new modes aren't SoloQ conquest so what does that have to do with anything? Plus, they are also Solo/DuoQ. Not just SoloQ.

 

The players that left because DuoQ got restricted were some of the worst. The only reason it was even relevant was because they were 'top' players, carried to the top by the same crutch they were crying over losing. 

They complained to get DuoQ specifically added back in too, not TeamQ. That should be noted. 

 

And people could just as easily leave because they don't always want to go through a half-hour process to find one game in TeamQ. The only difference is it'd be people like us leaving, and not some loud top 10 streamer who isn't getting carried anymore.

 

I mean, think about it:

First you've got to go into LFG, and find a team around your rating.

Then if that team wants voice chat, you've got to seek them all out on whatever platform.

Then you've got to wait until everyone in that party is totally ready. 

Then you have to sit in a queue which uses an average MMR of teams to matchmake; which, could and probably would take ages, only to probably match you against a team of a wildly different skill level which can lead to some really boring blowout matches.

 

And that's not even taking into account all the potential social awkwardness.

You know those people that AFK and yell in /team chat? How would something like that play out in voice chat?

And what if someone's mom just made them chicken nuggies and now they're being yelled at to come eat while they're hot?

 

I don't want to hear or deal with any of that. I have game, I want to play game. I don't want to wait forever, jump through hoops, and be forced to confront my social anxiety every time I want to play a Ranked GW2 match. Feels more like a trip to the DMV rather than a game at that point.

 

TL;DR YoloQ is a basic necessity. If it exists along with TeamQ as an option; that's totally fine, but you have to have it.

[Crab Fear.1624]

31 minutes ago, Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

Not the fairest way to look at things.

 

The evidence isn't really stacked against SoloQ because it has been Solo/DuoQ forever like you say. Not just SoloQ.

 

There's been 1, single, uno 5v5 conquest released in the time of Solo/DuoQ.

 

The new modes aren't SoloQ conquest so what does that have to do with anything? Plus, they are also Solo/DuoQ. Not just SoloQ.

 

The players that left because DuoQ got restricted were some of the worst. The only reason it was even relevant was because they were 'top' players, carried to the top by the same crutch they were crying over losing. 

They complained to get DuoQ specifically added back in too, not TeamQ. That should be noted. 

 

And people could just as easily leave because they don't always want to go through a half-hour process to find one game in TeamQ. The only difference is it'd be people like us leaving, and not some loud top 10 streamer who isn't getting carried anymore.

 

I mean, think about it:

First you've got to go into LFG, and find a team around your rating.

Then if that team wants voice chat, you've got to seek them all out on whatever platform.

Then you've got to wait until everyone in that party is totally ready. 

Then you have to sit in a queue which uses an average MMR of teams to matchmake; which, could and probably would take ages, only to probably match you against a team of a wildly different skill level which can lead to some really boring blowout matches.

 

And that's not even taking into account all the potential social awkwardness.

You know those people that AFK and yell in /team chat? How would something like that play out in voice chat?

And what if someone's mom just made them chicken nuggies and now they're being yelled at to come eat while they're hot?

 

I don't want to hear or deal with any of that. I have game, I want to play game. I don't want to wait forever, jump through hoops, and be forced to confront my social anxiety every time I want to play a Ranked GW2 match. Feels more like a trip to the DMV rather than a game at that point.

 

TL;DR YoloQ is a basic necessity. If it exists along with TeamQ as an option; that's totally fine, but you have to have it.

I'm in a pvp guild. I can say in guild chat, who wants to team?

 

Boom, I'll have a team. I already can duo no problem, and teams was easy back when it was an option.

 

I like the unstructured and constant flow of matches in ranked versus the style in ats. 

 

You seem to be very interactive,  perhaps you can form your own pvp guild with your insights and friendly approach.

 

I'm convinced pvp can only be saved by making ranked teams.

 

I meant that all those other things that were not teams also did not save pvp.

 

But, maybe something else, because an expansion didn't work....

 

I know that I will get beat by superior players, but I think it still will remove sabotage because I would always q with 4 guildies even it was just so they could play ranked for rewards..

 

Ranked is far more rewarding than unranked.

 

I mean what are you trying to preserve by being against it?

 

Integrity of rank?

 

It's like you have only imagined people using lfg..

 

How many guilds can we be in? Join more pvp guild and have more options...

 

If the pop is so small.....awe...bye dear gw2 lol

Edited June 24, 2021 by Crab Fear.1624

[Stand The Wall.6987]

the majority of the pvp playerbase are soloq casuals, prove me wrong

[Crab Fear.1624]

18 minutes ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

the majority of the pvp playerbase are soloq casuals, prove me wrong

Give me one season of team only ranked.

 

And you will be....lol

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

26 minutes ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

I'm in a pvp guild. I can say in guild chat, who wants to team?

 

Boom, I'll have a team. I already can duo no problem, and teams was easy back when it was an option.

 

I like the unstructured and constant flow of matches in ranked versus the style in ats. 

That's all very well, but my Guild slots are full.

 

There's also the case of nobody wanting to suffer through Ranked PvP in this game, nor do I want to put anyone through that. 

But that'd be more of a recent development, what with the great nerfening back in February 2020.

26 minutes ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

 

You seem to be very interactive,  perhaps you can form your own pvp guild with your insights and friendly approach.

Way ahead of you there. I already have my own PvP guild called 'Get Rid of Ranked' [DuoQ] 

 

We're recruiting too 🤙

26 minutes ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

 

I'm convinced pvp can only be saved by making ranked teams.

 

I meant that all those other things that were not teams also did not save pvp.

I get you there. All I was pointing out was that most of those were a result of Solo/DuoQ, not SoloQ specifically.

 

Solo and DuoQ are two completely different ways to play Ranked and should not be counted as a single entity.

26 minutes ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

I know that I will get beat by superior players, but I think it still will remove sabotage because I would always q with 4 guildies even it was just so they could play ranked for rewards..

 

Ranked is far more rewarding than unranked.

It would be helpful in getting rid of 'sabotage' yes because unless both teams are coordinating together then they can't do anything shady.

 

Like I said, TeamQ is absolutely fine. I'd prefer it to DuoQ in all honesty. But realistically i'm not going to play in a full TeamQ every day. SoloQ should still exist a quicker way to play Ranked, separate in both leaderboard and queues from Teams.

26 minutes ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

 

I mean what are you trying to preserve by being against it?

 

Integrity of rank?

Everything I mentioned that isn't that. Integrity of rank is honestly probably better off with TeamQ only rather than without.

 

I'm talking rate of getting into games, ease of access, dealing with people you dislike less, and more ways to play rather than just TeamQ. Like I say, going Yolo Solo in any competitive game is a completely different experience than going in teams.

26 minutes ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

 

It's like you have only imagined people using lfg..

 

How many guilds can we be in? Join more pvp guild and have more options...

Well I can only speak for myself because I would use LFG only.

 

After 8, 9, or however many years its been I feel like I would not want to interact with most of the people who play PvP outside of anything more than randomly being thrown together with/against in Solo/duo

 

Most of the chill people I would be willing to team with have either quit, or don't want to play Ranked at all since Ranked is a consistent source of frustration, fury, and rising levels of cortisol.

 

But i'm definitely not joining any Guilds full of people I probably dislike to then play Ranked with people I also probably dislike

 

I also wouldn't even play Ranked at all regardless; TeamQ or SoloQ, because being asked to suffer through post-nerfpocalypse Gw2 PvP for anything outside of dailies should be classified as cruel and unusual punishment, but even if that changed at some point; say for example, with EoD... Still not going to play TeamQ only.

 

The only appealing thought there is to know the wintrading will die along with PvP itself. 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

53 minutes ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

the majority of the pvp playerbase are soloq casuals, prove me wrong

 

So is the entire fractal CM T4 community. 95% of those players do not know each other. They just join LFGs nightly.

 

I guess that's what I"m trying to point out here. Joining LFG for 5man pvp is no differnet than joining LFG for 5man fractal. Many people who are against the idea of "needing to form 5 man teams" are people who have never actually tried it more than once upon a time 4+ years ago. Things are different now. LFGs for teams in ATs fill up faster than T4 groups. It's just not a hard thing to do. I don't think people realize this. And those groups in LFG don't care if you go into discord or not. 9/10x they don't even bring it up at all.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[razaelll.8324]

10 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I'll explain exactly what it is that produces the weak argument against pvp teams, in an exact order of steps in how it psychologically developed a kind "stigmatic" point of view, that most people in the community hold to this day:

 

1. Back during vanilla when Esports was a thing, everyone was excited about 5 man teams. I don't remember hearing a single person complain about 5 man teams back then. There were all kinds of would-be try hard pvp guilds forming, and this wasn't just strong players either, it was also mediocre to weaker players wanting to get involved.
2. But come to find out, the try hard sweat wasn't just in forming 5 man teams. It quickly became apparent that voice chat was a requirement for a team to get competitive. I cannot stress enough that this is where the original split happened between people who liked organized team play and people who did not -> Some people had absolutely no problem going into a voice chat and they were good at socializing and communicating and getting along with people. Others found that they were awkward or didn't know what to say or maybe they raged too much or couldn't take feeling the frustration of others when hearing other's voices get so salty or maybe they just did NOT want to hear other people talking and would rather listen to mp3s. Either way, it created a divide between players who were willing and wanted to get into voice chats, and others who really began to avoid it. This created an ousting so to say, where players who were not willing to get into voice chat, began to get left out of serious team formations, as well as anyone who didn't exactly jive in the voice chat with everyone else for whatever reason that may have been. These kinds of people were dodged in favor of better personalities. It still happens to this day actually. You'd be surprised what people will tolerate in the /p chat, but they will not tolerate anything in a voice chat that even slightly rubs them the wrong way or is too boring. IE: Two Spellbreakers are both playing at 1500 rating. One of them is a quiet player in the voice chat who rarely speaks at all who prefers to listen, but the other Spellbreaker is loud and funny all of the time. The loud & funny guy will be invited to a group first before the quiet guy almost every time. So people began to identify & associate 5man team organization with voice chat use. For some people this was certainly not a problem, but for others it became a nuisance because they were experiencing unfavorable situations with voice chat use. And so began the big split in ideology of what conquest should be. When you ask them if they are pro or con 5man, they immediately associate that question with forced socialization standards via voice chat, which reminds them of a lot of unnecessary buzz that they'd rather avoid. The idea of disliking 5man teams began here.
3. The above is an oversimplification ^ There are different tiers in which people avoid social stigma. First you have those who don't like 5man teams because they avoid the inevitable "here is our discord". Then you have people who avoid 5man teams because they like to avoid any & all responsibility for their play in general, even if communication is limited to text. Then you have several others who avoid 5man teams because of assumptions they've drawn from the stories of others, or this fear they have of being judged, or plainly just excuses to be anti-social. I heard heard/read some extremely inaccurate conclusions as to why people avoid 5man team play over the years. It's amazing really.
4. The problem with players having a bad point of view of 5man play becomes exasperated during the era of the first new seasonal releases when bronze/silver/gold took over the old amber/sapphire/ruby. The first two seasons of the new format were actually guild team leaderboards if anyone cares to remember. Arenanet also made it during that era that either the top 10 or top 15 teams rated at the end of the season, were the teams who were allowed to participate in the ESL. Before this we only had organized tournaments for try hard teams. This was the first time there was a queue system to queue all day long, that gave try hard teams a reasons to mix queue against everyone else, and not just scrim in preparation for a tournament here and there. Boy oh boy did this rub people the wrong way. And it did not help that Arenanet had not yet added the algorithm function where 3-5 man queues would receive inflated base average MMR adjustments to accommodate the fact that most of them were always in a voice chat. So you had teams of 1550 solo off-voice queueing into teams of 1550 5man on-voice with no algorithm adjustment. Obviously the teams on-voice were winning most of the time and it pissed everyone off. The main psychological effect here, is that it made solo queue players feel like they were being forced to 5man queue or lose, and being forced into discord or lose, with no choice behind a preferred solo or team queue. During this time they had just removed solo/team queue and replaced it with unranked/ranked. We didn't even have ATs yet. So there was only one queue option that pitted all mixed queues together who wanted to complete achievements and play competitively. It is important to note that THIS is where the strong hatred for solo vs. 5man began. It actually began to develop flat out bias where solo advocates in the future would begin to completely ignore any rightful & accurate & justified reasons to reimplement a 5man game mode. But in a way can you blame them after what happened here? There was a lot done wrong with this initial release of guild team leaderboards forcing against mixed queues.
5. At the tail end of the guild team leaderboards and right when solo/duo seasons began, Arenanet did actually implement a new code that added a flat average MMR adjustment to 3 to 5 man organized teams. Essentially what it did is it made it so a 5man team of 1550s would be made to go against a team of solo 1600s, pretty much, and it actually works out rather well for those who have noticed the function in unranked, which is the only place the code is used now. However people don't remember any of this. They only remember the savage farming happening in S1 and S2 from 5man teams in a ranked mode before that code was added. Again, we are talking stigmatic memories of a time long passed, with a reluctance to acknowledge the way things have changed now, and how they could be changed in the future for the better. Now we are talking flat out bias.
6. Now we exist in a world of solo/duo only ranked. To the untrained eye or the apathic eye, it would seem as if this were the most fair way to go about things for several reasons. If I were new to GW2 walking into the scene now, I'm sure I would strongly advocate solo/duo queue over 5man queue in ranked, aaaaaall the way until I started noticing some things were not right here. Simply put, solo/duo only enables synch queue tactics. I don't think newcomers or casuals are quite exactly aware of how much match manipulation happens due to this, whether it is from guys in discord together synching or sometimes guys multi-boxing bots for throwing. Regardless, the solo/duo only format is a lie and a great illusion. What players don't realize is that they are still losing many games to premade teams that they cannot see. IE: The UI looks like their duo is with all solos, and they are against another duo with all solos. But in reality the duo on the RED team has 2 synched players on alts who came into the game and landed on the BLUE team, who are ready to throw the match for the RED duo they are supporting. All 4 of those players are in a discord talking together. This is called win trading and it happens much more frequently than players realize, even by players whom no one would suspect was using these kinds of tactics. Most of them use bots to do it actually, and don't even speak with other players about what they are doing at all. So nothing has changed here. People are still losing games to premade teams. The only difference here is that many people are unable to identify that this is happening, and these terribly lopsided blowout matches that they often experience are attributed to "terrible match making" and "low population" because they don't know any better. And then rather than identifying that being able to select your own 5man team is the only way to stop synch queue throw monkeys landing in your team, they continue to advocate solo/duo only is more fair, because they don't know any better. And then of course there are also those old memories of times long past, the old ESL 5man season 1 & 2 days, where there were no adjustments to 5man team MMR, to further solidify & justify how they feel, because they don't know any better. These players who so strongly advocate solo play need to ask themselves one very serious question: Would you rather lose to an actual team that was outlined and in front of you that you can see who is legitimately outplaying you, or would you rather lose to a team who is manipulating the match and making you lose by making your team throw the match? Think hard about it, as it is a question that should be asked and should be answered.

I can't help but to notice that what we are really looking at here in terms of who supports solo and who supports 5man organized, is a difference in level of awareness. People who are not aware of the depths of what is happening here in the GW2 ranked pvp scene are clearly people who have never went into a discord to see win trading being discussed quite publicly in a chat. They've never sat in a voice chat and listened to people as they performed it, and I'm sure haven't participated in it unless they were unaware it was happening. These kinds of players support solo/duo only because well, on paper it sounds deliciously balanced. But if they knew what was happening, they'd realize they were still against 5man premade teams all the time anyway, and that the only difference at this point in time between solo/duo and 5man organized, is whether or not they are able to SEE the team they are against and have a chance of beating it. The difference is that 5man organized allows players to block themselves from having synch queue throw monkeys on their team. They don't NEED to get into a discord, they can just LFG with other players they recognize, just as easily as they would for a T4 fractals. Let go of the old stigma, a lot has changed. At this point people just want to block themselves from bad joins.

 

People should advocate bringing back some kind of a 5man organized system, as it is the only way to fix the problems that largely plague this game, concerning match manipulation in mass, humans as well as bots. If players really knew, had witnessed with their own eyes, how bad this actually is in GW2 ranked, they would quickly shift their advocacy from pro solo to pro 5man.

 

This stuff is no different than a T4 fractal join guys. Don't make it something it's not.

Buddy please stop pretending that you know everything better than the people which disagree with you. You are talking like teamq dont have problems at all , where win trading and boosting is also a big problem for teamq only systems as can be seen in games like WoW.  As everything in the world both teamq and soloq has positives and negatives, dont act like teamq will fix all the issues in the world becuase it wont and it will bring issue of its own , which i pointed out to you previously couple of times so i am not going to repeat my self again. 

 

Quote

I can't help but to notice that what we are really looking at here in terms of who supports solo and who supports 5man organized, is a difference in level of awareness. People who are not aware of the depths of what is happening here in the GW2 ranked pvp scene are clearly people who have never went into a discord to see win trading being discussed quite publicly in a chat

 - absolutely wrong assumption.

 

Quote

Many people who are against the idea of "needing to form 5 man teams" are people who have never actually tried it more than once upon a time 4+ years ago

this is ridiculous assumption in my opinion.

 

Please stop with your ridiculous assumptions of what people are, because you are most of the times wrong ( and it is toxic and elitist). Most of the people dont have problem for having both , but teamQ only no please NO. In my opinion such system will reduce even further the pvp population and would be very unfriendly for new people and it wont stop match manipulation and win trading and it will promote even more boosting and paying to get boosted. You will still having people afking after first team fight loss which is happening in ATs too currently as a person pointed out in another thread.

 

If you want to have a constructive discussion about both systems i will be very happy, but assuming what people are just because they disagree with your point of view is not the right way in my opinion.

Edited June 25, 2021 by razaelll.8324

[razaelll.8324]

5 hours ago, Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

Like I said, TeamQ is absolutely fine. I'd prefer it to DuoQ in all honesty. But realistically i'm not going to play in a full TeamQ every day. SoloQ should still exist a quicker way to play Ranked, separate in both leaderboard and queues from Teams.

Exactly

[razaelll.8324]

5 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

 

So is the entire fractal CM T4 community. 95% of those players do not know each other. They just join LFGs nightly.

 

I guess that's what I"m trying to point out here. Joining LFG for 5man pvp is no differnet than joining LFG for 5man fractal. Many people who are against the idea of "needing to form 5 man teams" are people who have never actually tried it more than once upon a time 4+ years ago. Things are different now. LFGs for teams in ATs fill up faster than T4 groups. It's just not a hard thing to do. I don't think people realize this. And those groups in LFG don't care if you go into discord or not. 9/10x they don't even bring it up at all.

AT is once every few hours thats why the groups are filling faster. Yesterday a guildmate waited 40 minutes in lfg to find group for t4 fractial cms. So if ranked become teamq only what makes you think that you will not search for teams a lot of time specially if you are high rating? 

[Spellhunter.9675]

I have a question for people who want teamQ.
In vanilla days we actually have separate teamQ and soloQ. But majority of people played solo (you can queue solo even on teamQ and you can Q both at the same time back in the days).

So, if you think teamQ is so good, why it wasn't popular at all? Even guys from ESL teams played solo like 80% of their games. And it was really low chance to play actual full 5 man party vs full 5 man party.

 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

 

@razaelll.8324

 

Everything you've said is exemplary of what I described in my post about misinformed & biased points of views.

 

 

5 hours ago, Spellhunter.9675 said:

So, if you think teamQ is so good, why it wasn't popular at all? Even guys from ESL teams played solo like 80% of their games. And it was really low chance to play actual full 5 man party vs full 5 man party.

 

Good question, but this goes back into what I had explained in my post about how things have changed over the years and how we really cannot use data for 6+ years ago to compare with what is happening now.

 

1. Team Queue was not popular back in the ESL days because there was no competitive team queue. All we had was Solo Queue and Team Queue, there wasn't even AT formats yet. There wasn't a displayable badge icon rating for these modes outside of a external website driven leaderboards that never flipped. There weren't special rewards for any of these matches, no titles to show things like rank 1 through 10 achieved. The reason why ESL players didn't care to Team Queue all day back then was for the same reasons why they don't 5man Unranked Queue today, it's not competitive and it gets boring really fast. The better teams back then would scrim against each other in preparation for the occasional organized tournaments that had cash prize or something similar tied to them. This is what they do still to this day.
2. Team Queue was always popular, you just didn't see the Abjured camping unranked all day because it would have made them worse players. Good teams actually go out of their way to only go against other good players for this reason. And inordinate amount of practice vs. intermediates or worse will actually deteriorate higher tiered skill. However, normal guild teams did play the old Team Queue and Unranked for practice quite often, all day long. Team Queue was definitely popular, it just wasn't popular with the solo queue community. During S1 and S2 when they tried their hand at guild team league leaderboards and top 10 teams would be teams who played in the ESL, dude there were 100s and 100s of registered guild teams avidly participating in that, trying to break into the ESL. It was definitely a very real popular thing. Think of it what you want, but do think for yourself on this one -> When Arenanet removed 5man queues and gave us solo/duo only format, they claimed "There aren't enough teams to keep a 5man format" which I personally found to be a strange claim considering literally everyone I knew at the time was trying hard with a guild team or various guild teams, to try and break into the ESL. Think of it what you want but do think for yourself. All I'm saying is that I remember 100s and 100s of guild teams being on that guild league leaderboard in the top 250, who all had hundreds and hundreds of games played.

This was all before AT formats. Now we have AT format automated tournaments. Before ATs, organizing tournaments was a pain in the butt for people like the AG community. Hand organizing those old kinds of community driven events was a serious chore and required a lot of time & dedication on the part of the people doing it. But this is no longer a problem at all with the AT format. Again, we cannot compare the old dynamic of 5man scene back then, to what it is now with automated tournaments. There are plenty of teams who queue ATs all day long, even considering the lower population at this point. There are easy anywhere from 10 to 20 teams during normal time ATs and prime time during each AT, and maybe as little as 6 or less during off peak hours. That's a lot of people showing up to these 5man formats for a low population.

 

But mainly what I am saying is two things: 1) Team Queue has always been popular and the preferred mode for competitive players. 2) We cannot compare how things used to be to how things are or could be now. Too much has changed to be drawing upon old stigmatic memories, or old anet quotes, or just sheer bias based from would-be assumptions.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Stand The Wall.6987]

its definitely something to try out again, but i think after a few hours queues would settle and they would be ~10min. not to mention anything outside of na primetime, that would be really brutal for anyone trying to queue then.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Stand The Wall.6987

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 hour ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

its definitely something to try out again, but i think after a few hours queues would settle and they would be ~10min. not to mention anything outside of na primetime, that would be really brutal for anyone trying to queue then.

 

I completely 100% agree, when we are talking a system like ranked 5man queue. I wouldn't want that either. I do prefer to casual around in unranked to be honest with you.

 

But when I do feel like being competitive, I find the AT format to be perfect for it.

 

What I am proposing, and have been proposing in several threads for quite some time now is this:

 

1. Remove rating/badge icon from ranked, and tie it into shorter month long AT seasons that begin and end with the MAT.
2. Shove all ranked related rewards to unranked. Keep the queue mixed, no one will care to manipulate unranked when no rating clout is tied to it.
3. Remove ranked mode entirely.
4. Now players can casual queue, farm, practice, whatever, in unranked.
5. If players want to get more competitive they can queue AT month long seasons and have the luxury of forming 5man teams as to block synch queue match manipulations. The amount of total games played to be able to show on the leaderboards can be lowered due to AT format. Realistically, placements could be 5 games as example, then at each interval it increases in intervals of 5. First week 5 games, second week 10 games, ect ect. This would work well for AT format seasons and actually be less demanding on time, contrary to the misinformed statements that some people are making. Rating will still function exactly the same as it does now. And in Swiss format, players cannot just queue dodge each other. They have to fight other teams who are willing to fight them. Also with Swiss format, lower tiered teams get plenty of chances to fight other lower tiered teams. Honestly, I don't understand how Anet has not noticed the potential chemistry behind AT formats and the algorithm. Maybe they have but just don't care.
6. For the purpose of better match making, this will actually pool the division of unranked/ranked players back together for the purpose of better match quality in general. ATs are a different story obviously. Team formation in ATs is based off the reputation of your name alone.

 

 

And as far as the wah wah wah goes about "I don't want to queue with teams to have a badge" I can say to those people that, well then maybe you don't want that badge badly enough if you don't want to compete for it. Also, it occurs to me that maybe some people are making strawman defenses in that spirit, when REALLY what they are saying is: "I want to keep solo/duo so I can continue to bot and win trade".

 

People can think what they want, they just need to think for themselves and think wisely. This community and the mode it is based around has become a cesspool of cheating & botting for a reason, and that reason is not because solo/duo Ranked is a great game mode.

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Stand The Wall.6987]

54 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

snips

i think your system would work fine for na primetime but off hours would suffer greatly. if the system would prove successful tho maybe more players would play and things would sort out. something has to be done for sure tho to continue to grow pvp, its stagnated over the years into a meme.

[razaelll.8324]

3 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Everything you've said is exemplary of what I described in my post about misinformed & biased points of views.

Nope its not, can you atleast try to address the concerns which i mentioned , becuase you didnt the last time also.

 

As i said i am 100 % for trying it out, but i am concerned that the results will not be good.

 

Also please let me know why you think my opinion is "biased" , because it is formed on already existing teamq systems and the result which we see in them is far worse than what we have now in gw2.

 

"And as far as the wah wah wah goes about "I don't want to queue with teams to have a badge" I can say to those people that, well then maybe you don't want that badge badly enough if you don't want to compete for it. "

 

You can compete for badge without being forced into looking for group by your own and let a system find the group for you, this statement is illogical.

 

 

The system which you are proposing is perfect for your gameplay and the way you enjoy the game, but it is not for people which are playing more casually and cant play the game at very specific hours.

 

Please instead of calling me biased explain to me how a teamq only system will fix boosting problems, match manipulating problems, afk players.

 

Thank you in advance.

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by razaelll.8324