Optimal Boonripping Spreadsheet

[RisenHowl.2419]

8 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

Right exactly...thank you...that's all this post is supposed to be....information for the user and they can confirm it by doing the math for themselves. So long as the numbers are correct that is all that matters... but people take it personal... idk why, and then people use all kinds of ridiculous ways to attack the information as if it's some kind of magic sorcery...

 

Frankly I don't care what Risen's burst sequence is. he can play the game however he wants to play it even...so I don't see the resistance to information...it's just silly.

I'm going to bold the important part here for you, read it slowly. Your numbers aren't correct (using pve cooldowns, well of corruption hits 6x not 5x, nightfall removes 5/2s not 20/2s, 3 shade harbringer shroud hits, trail of anguish stripping 80 boons, etc) and you repeatedly try to apply them to scenarios where you don't take into account that you're fighting mobile players rather than immobile golems.

 

It's not a resistance to information, it's trying to educate you and those who are reading this thread with the correct information.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

5 minutes ago, RisenHowl.2419 said:

I'm going to bold the important part here for you, read it slowly. Your numbers aren't correct (using pve cooldowns, well of corruption hits 6x not 5x, nightfall removes 5/2s not 20/2s, 3 shade harbringer shroud hits, trail of anguish stripping 80 boons, etc) and you repeatedly try to apply them to scenarios where you don't take into account that you're fighting mobile players rather than immobile golems.

 

It's not a resistance to information, it's trying to educate you and those who are reading this thread with the correct information.

 

My guy is reading hard for you?

 

this was 5 or 6 comments ago :

 

 

  Quote

-nightfall corrupts 1 boon per pulse, so 5 boons total every 2s

Gonna make this adjustment to Nightfall cause you're right about this here. Naturally this puts it inline with other skills. Also added Signet of Locust to the spreadsheet.

Edited July 8, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

Something else that this analysis doesn't take into account is the priority order of boons stripped and specific trait interactions. Let's take Bountiful Theft as an example.

 

Most boon strip skills follow the last on first off sort of logic, but Bountiful Theft prioritises stability and protection. If you add Sleight of Hand and Daredevil for Mug, then take an absorption sigil for good measure, then you have an unblockable 5 boon strip that dazes the target through stability and specifically targets the key boons that keeps someone alive in a bomb. If you can identify and hit a key target like a commander with this just before your squad's rev/necro bomb drops then odds are they will drop too. This skill would then have a far more profound effect on the fight than any other boonstrip skill, simply because of what boons it rips first. 

 

What are the priority lists for AoE boonrip? I'm genuinely asking here because I don't know how it works for each skill, what I do know is that it isn't standardised game-wide. So depending on the priority lists for each skill, you could have a skill that rips less boons but has much more weight in deciding a fight, and at the moment your analysis doesn't take that into account. 

[Shroud.2307]

Will never understand why people have to be sarcastic and/or flat out rude toward someone who's put in a significant effort to provide information and help others.

Nothing wrong with correcting someone or adding information they might have missed, but why put people down in the process? 

I hate seeing someone making content of any sort (unless that content is specifically negative, like "exposed" videos) and others shitting all over it because they don't like it/they latch on to mistakes of any sort and it becomes the the entire focus of their review.

Edited July 8, 2021 by Shroud.2307

[Stand The Wall.6987]

13 minutes ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

Something else that this analysis doesn't take into account is the priority order of boons stripped and specific trait interactions. Let's take Bountiful Theft as an example.

 

Most boon strip skills follow the last on first off sort of logic, but Bountiful Theft prioritises stability and protection. If you add Sleight of Hand and Daredevil for Mug, then take an absorption sigil for good measure, then you have an unblockable 5 boon strip that dazes the target through stability and specifically targets the key boons that keeps someone alive in a bomb. If you can identify and hit a key target like a commander with this just before your squad's rev/necro bomb drops then odds are they will drop too. This skill would then have a far more profound effect on the fight than any other boonstrip skill, simply because of what boons it rips first. 

 

What are the priority lists for AoE boonrip? I'm genuinely asking here because I don't know how it works for each skill, what I do know is that it isn't standardised game-wide. So depending on the priority lists for each skill, you could have a skill that rips less boons but has much more weight in deciding a fight, and at the moment your analysis doesn't take that into account. 

ah man don't remind me... i put in a ton of time trying to figure all this aoe boonrip stuff out only to realize that most strips are dependent on which boons get applied first. what is it, first in last out or something? there is something like this for condis too. yes specific skills will remove certain boons first, like steal and shroud 2 (core and reaper only i think), but most skills rely on the rule i stated earlier (again not entirely sure how it goes anymore).

[Hackuuna.4085]

29 minutes ago, Shroud.2307 said:

Will never understand why people have to be sarcastic and/or flat out rude toward someone who's put in a significant effort to provide information and help others.

Nothing wrong with correcting someone or adding information they might have missed, but why put people down in the process? 

I hate seeing someone making content of any sort (unless that content is specifically negative, like "exposed" videos) and others shitting all over it because they don't like it/they latch on to mistakes of any sort and it becomes the the entire focus of their review.

Those involved probably disagreed in the past, or have a connection with someone who disagreed in the past. One or both see the other as unreasonable so make use of emotional barbs to try to hurt the other. Basically, they are emotionally attached to one another

Edited July 8, 2021 by Hackuuna.4085

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

12 minutes ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

What are the priority lists for AoE boonrip? I'm genuinely asking here because I don't know how it works for each skill, what I do know is that it isn't standardised game-wide. So depending on the priority lists for each skill, you could have a skill that rips less boons but has much more weight in deciding a fight, and at the moment your analysis doesn't take that into account. 

 

No idea. It's an interesting question I'm sure someone could figure it out but something like that requires a lot of testing. In a zerg fight you're normally not even looking at any particular boon to rip on a foe you are just smashing skills and watching your boon rip meter and DPS meter go up. There might exist some skills that prioritize say, stability over regeneration...and this is something you'd want to think about when you take a skill. But this analysis assumes all boon-rips here have no advantage over any other boon-rip. You sniff out the advantages and disadvantages on your own, as you try to maximize the efficiency to which you use skills. 

 

Like Howl and others have stated so far...Distance is a thing to consider in fights and this will effect the way in which you are able to use your skills. But like Stand The Wall says, you can take that kind of information and apply them in your own efforts toward whatever goals you are seeking to accomplish....only you will know what is best for you when you go into a particular fight. If you don't think you can land Nightfalls or spam Reaper 2's and stuff...then it's not for you and you choose some alternate style of gameplay. There's a large combination of possible things you can do and come up with based on information in general and that's why I made this analysis in the first place...to empower users...to develop alternate or optimal styles of gameplay.

 

26 minutes ago, Shroud.2307 said:

Will never understand why people have to be sarcastic and/or flat out rude toward someone who's put in a significant effort to provide information and help others.

Nothing wrong with correcting someone or adding information they might have missed, but why put people down in the process? 

I hate seeing someone making content of any sort (unless that content is specifically negative, like "exposed" videos) and others shitting all over it because they don't like it/they latch on to mistakes of any sort and it becomes the the entire focus of their review.

 

Ya, I appreciate that, thanks. There's a lot of skills that do a lot of things and depend on a lot of factors and to try to quantify them in some format is always something prone to mistakes but I try to do it as accurately as possible...even looking at the spreadsheet now I'm almost never sure if I got everything correct in there of if i added everything. Sometimes I can jump the gun when looking at a skill tooltip like Nightfall...which I barely ever played, and realize that it's worth testing because I "thought" it was good. After seeing that the tooltip basically lied to me (it was more like i got fooled) and I went to check it out on the Wikipedia, I went back to fix it on the spread sheet.

 

So ya even if the details can sometimes be incomplete or wrong, the method for how to use the analysis I know to be right. Understanding the absolute limitations of a skill is very much like trying to figure out how many pushups you can do. Trying to reach the limit...maybe go beyond it is the intention. If that limit is a number in a game...well it might be impossible to go beyond it but you can at least try to reach it. Anyway ya...that's the purpose of the analysis i hope people will take something away from it, and correct anything that might be wrong in there. 

 

 

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

23 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

No idea. It's an interesting question I'm sure someone could figure it out but something like that requires a lot of testing. In a zerg fight you're normally not even looking at any particular boon to rip on a foe you are just smashing skills and watching your boon rip meter and DPS meter go up. There might exist some skills that prioritize say, stability over regeneration...and this is something you'd want to think about when you take a skill. But this analysis assumes all boon-rips here have no advantage over any other boon-rip. You sniff out the advantages and disadvantages on your own, as you try to maximize the efficiency to which you use skills. 

 

Like Howl and others have stated so far...Distance is a thing to consider in fights and this will effect the way in which you are able to use your skills. But like Stand The Wall says, you can take that kind of information and apply them in your own efforts toward whatever goals you are seeking to accomplish....only you will know what is best for you when you go into a particular fight. If you don't think you can land Nightfalls or spam Reaper 2's and stuff...then it's not for you and you choose some alternate style of gameplay. There's a large combination of possible things you can do and come up with based on information in general and that's why I made this analysis in the first place...to empower users...to develop alternate or optimal styles of gameplay.

Definitely. I'm obviously approaching the problem from a thief point of view because that's what I main, so I'd be looking more at what actions can I take in a given scenario to guarantee a down on a key target. The analysis isn't a bad thing, it's fun to look at these sort of things, it's just important to remember that a mathematical model is only as good as the underlying assumptions it makes, so you always need to keep the limitations of the model in mind when applying it to a real life situation. 

Edited July 8, 2021 by Jugglemonkey.8741
Spelling

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

46 minutes ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

ah man don't remind me... i put in a ton of time trying to figure all this aoe boonrip stuff out only to realize that most strips are dependent on which boons get applied first. what is it, first in last out or something? there is something like this for condis too. yes specific skills will remove certain boons first, like steal and shroud 2 (core and reaper only i think), but most skills rely on the rule i stated earlier (again not entirely sure how it goes anymore).

Yeah, I remember your forum discussions on it actually. And yes, first in last out or last on first off, however you want to say it. I know Bountiful Theft is an exception to the general rule, but the existence of one exception doesn't preclude the possibility that more exceptions exist, hence the question. 

 

Edit: I remember in vanilla after the stability change to stacks, my guild would have me on engi running slick shoes and elixer S to run through the enemy group and strip an entire guild's worth of stability before our melee push. Thinking outside the box with exceptions to the rules can be pretty fun with these sort of things haha.  

Edited July 8, 2021 by Jugglemonkey.8741

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

14 minutes ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

Definitely. I'm obviously approaching the problem from a thief point of view because that's what I main, so I'd be looking more at what actions can I take in a given scenario to guarantee a down on a key target. The analysis isn't a bad thing, it's fun to look at these sort of things, it's just important to remember that a mathematical model is only as good as the underlying assumptions it makes, so you always need to keep the limitations of the model in mind when applying it to a real life situation. 

 

Right...but who said that I don't remember that? Why assume that someone who's made a mathematical analysis, isn't aware of it's compatibility with the real world?

 

For example...the way I personally use such an analysis is the following, I play whatever utilities I want to play ,I play whatever weapon I want to play, and I play whatever specialization or whatever build idea I want to create in my trait-lines. Then by studying the potentials of the skills I chose to play, I can determine which skills have the highest priority when those things come off cooldown, and this allows me to play a build I just created out of nothingness, in the most efficient way possible.

 

So for instance...I play a full on damage reaper build in SPVP for funzies, and it mostly has skills that are unrelated to boon-stripping. Because I use it with curses tree, My Shroud 2 corrupts boons on usage, and so when I play the game, since i know the potential my reaper 2 can do...i use it as often as possible, and i know that over the long term, it will pressure the enemy of boons... more-so then specifically bringing a utility to do that job...which would be less efficient at it....in effect i make up in performance, for what i lack in actually taking a utility that could have made my job of boonstripping on this max damage build a little easier.

 

It's also fun to spam Shroud 2 when an opponent necromancer uses Lich Form, or when dueling a warrior that uses Rampage. Sometimes, you just find uses for things out of nowhere...when at first you think the skill or trait would be hard to land, or useless to play...you find that somewhere out there in the game that there IS a way to reach that potential.

Edited July 8, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[God.2708]

3 hours ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

Yeah, I remember your forum discussions on it actually. And yes, first in last out or last on first off, however you want to say it. I know Bountiful Theft is an exception to the general rule, but the existence of one exception doesn't preclude the possibility that more exceptions exist, hence the question. 

 

Edit: I remember in vanilla after the stability change to stacks, my guild would have me on engi running slick shoes and elixer S to run through the enemy group and strip an entire guild's worth of stability before our melee push. Thinking outside the box with exceptions to the rules can be pretty fun with these sort of things haha.  

 

There was another post about this... Somewhere in the gw2 forums, where someone did some extensive testing on the golem.

 

I'd have to dig it up, but I seem to recall every 'boon steal' skill in the game follows a priority list. Most follow steals pattern, like arcane thievery and Dune cloak, but others like sigil of absorbtion have their own. Boon 'rips' follow a first on first off pattern, this is NOT left to right, but can be (refreshing a boon like regeneration keeps its place in the UI, but puts it on top of the stack to rip). Boon 'corrupts' seem to be random. Or follow some some different pattern that doesn't make any sense.

 

Edit:

 

 

Realized @Stand The Wall.6987
The maker of it already posted, whoops.

 

Has a video of someone doing similar with "Save Yourselves"

Edited July 8, 2021 by God.2708

[RisenHowl.2419]

20 minutes ago, God.2708 said:

 

There was another post about this... Somewhere in the gw2 forums, where someone did some extensive testing on the golem.

 

I'd have to dig it up, but I seem to recall every 'boon steal' skill in the game follows a priority list. Most follow steals pattern, like arcane thievery and Dune cloak, but others like sigil of absorbtion have their own. Boon 'rips' follow a first on first off pattern, this is NOT left to right, but can be (refreshing a boon like regeneration keeps its place in the UI, but puts it on top of the stack to rip). Boon 'corrupts' seem to be random. Or follow some some different pattern that doesn't make any sense.

 

Edit:

 

 

Realized @Stand The Wall.6987
The maker of it already posted, whoops.

 

Has a video of someone doing similar with "Save Yourselves"

there's a different priority list between pve, pvp, and wvw as well. the golems don't reflect it so you need another player with an alt on a different server to test it

[Cyninja.2954]

4 hours ago, Shroud.2307 said:

Will never understand why people have to be sarcastic and/or flat out rude toward someone who's put in a significant effort to provide information and help others.

Other players are putting this information into context of both how valuable it is as a resources, as well as how correct it is.

 

You then see TC explain to others how they are misusing this information in an attempt to over-express how valuable the given information is.

 

Every correct information is valuable, but not necessarily crucial. Understanding which data is best used how is just as important as acquiring the data, if not more so. In this case, as mentioned by others and myself, the table is nice, but not in any way a huge deciding factor to actual game play.

 

If TC had just once bothered to actually take a step back, realize where his provided information falls in regards to actual in-game application and stopped exaggerating the significance of this data, others might have been more interested in it. Instead he just keeps pointing to how he is correct and others are incorrect, which might be true in a theoretical environment (once his mistakes are corrected) but most likely not correct in a practical/actual in-game environment.

4 hours ago, Shroud.2307 said:

Nothing wrong with correcting someone or adding information they might have missed, but why put people down in the process? 

Yes, corrections were made. That is fine, mistakes happen.

4 hours ago, Shroud.2307 said:

I hate seeing someone making content of any sort (unless that content is specifically negative, like "exposed" videos) and others shitting all over it because they don't like it/they latch on to mistakes of any sort and it becomes the the entire focus of their review.

 

There is a wide gap between kitting over something and just bowing down and accepting it as fact or crucial data.

 

Yes, having a boon denial table can be useful, especially with an increase in boon denial skills come next expansion. It is not mandatory or crucial though in the games current state due to many different reasons, most of which were pointed out by now.

 

 

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

37 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Other players are putting this information into context of both how valuable it is as a resources, as well as how correct it is.

 

You then see TC explain to others how they are misusing this information in an attempt to over-express how valuable the given information is.

 

Every correct information is valuable, but not necessarily crucial. Understanding which data is best used how is just as important as acquiring the data, if not more so. In this case, as mentioned by others and myself, the table is nice, but not in any way a huge deciding factor to actual game play.

 

If TC had just once bothered to actually take a step back, realize where his provided information falls in regards to actual in-game application and stopped exaggerating the significance of this data, others might have been more interested in it. Instead he just keeps pointing to how he is correct and others are incorrect, which might be true in a theoretical environment (once his mistakes are corrected) but most likely not correct in a practical/actual in-game environment.

Yes, corrections were made. That is fine, mistakes happen.

 

There is a wide gap between kitting over something and just bowing down and accepting it as fact or crucial data.

 

Yes, having a boon denial table can be useful, especially with an increase in boon denial skills come next expansion. It is not mandatory or crucial though in the games current state due to many different reasons, most of which were pointed out by now.

 

A) Information is information, and you choose to use it or you don't. The only person you hurt in that process is yourself...not anyone else. I think it's you who is trying to decide and impose what is important or not about skills, like saying that stability is more important than boon-stripping or whatever it is you said earlier. My stance, and the information I provide says no such thing about skills. That's the difference between people like you who want to keep the game in a single stale metagame, and people like me, who want more diversity in gameplay options.

 

B) You talk about in-game application...and yet what application in or out of the game do YOU have...what analysis have YOU actually made that's consistent. Why should anyone have to believe what YOU say over somebody else... or rather why should anyone believe what you have to say about skills rather than numbers on a spreadsheet, which can be independently confirmed or denied.

 

This is the same fallacy for problems where people blindly listen to what somebody says about a skill because "they are a commander" or because "they are a streamer" or because "they are in ESL."  Did you know I had an argument with an entire guild that didn't know that Jalis Roads can effect more than 5 targets? Why did nobody believe me you ask? Because their commander said I was wrong and he was right just because he is the commander he "obviously" must know right?

 

Ask Howl himself he will tell you how Jalis Roads can hit up to 25/30 targets however many it is...both enemy and allied. 

 

 

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

1 hour ago, God.2708 said:

 

There was another post about this... Somewhere in the gw2 forums, where someone did some extensive testing on the golem.

 

I'd have to dig it up, but I seem to recall every 'boon steal' skill in the game follows a priority list. Most follow steals pattern, like arcane thievery and Dune cloak, but others like sigil of absorbtion have their own. Boon 'rips' follow a first on first off pattern, this is NOT left to right, but can be (refreshing a boon like regeneration keeps its place in the UI, but puts it on top of the stack to rip). Boon 'corrupts' seem to be random. Or follow some some different pattern that doesn't make any sense.

 

Edit:

 

 

Realized @Stand The Wall.6987
The maker of it already posted, whoops.

 

Has a video of someone doing similar with "Save Yourselves"

 

Very interesting list. Thank you @Stand The Wall.6987. 

[Cyninja.2954]

21 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

A) Information is information, and you choose to use it or you don't. The only person you hurt in that process is yourself...not anyone else. I think it's you who is trying to decide and impose what is important or not about skills, like saying that stability is more important than boon-stripping or whatever it is you said earlier. My stance, and the information I provide says no such thing about skills. That's the difference between people like you who want to keep the game in a single stale metagame, and people like me, who want more diversity in gameplay options.

Information can be misused or misunderstood. You decide to put information out there but refuse to point to the limitations or lack of application of it.

 

You literally made up rotations in your very first opening post. Those rotations if taken at face value would have been a detriment to any player who does not know how to put the provided information into context. If you don't want to make sure that the information you provide harms other players, then others might.

Quote

 

B) You talk about in-game application...and yet what application in or out of the game do YOU have...what analysis have YOU actually made that's consistent. Why should anyone have to believe what YOU say over somebody else... or rather why should anyone believe what you have to say about skills rather than numbers on a spreadsheet, which can be independently confirmed or denied.

No one has to believe me. I am not here to establish anything. I am bringing my personal experience on how skills are used, in some cases so basic that no explanation should be required (I would hope no one needs in-depth explanations of when different ranges would be crucial for skill selection) in others based on experience of what is required, in an attempt to put this information into a framework.

 

If I wanted others to believe me and I wanted to make a solid argument for this, it would take far more than a single table of data in a complex game as this to do. What I would not do is provide singular selective data and over-interpret its meaning.

Quote

 

This is the same fallacy for problems where people blindly listen to what somebody says about a skill because "they are a commander" or because "they are a streamer" or because "they are in ESL."  

I don't care for people to blindly listening to me. I care about them understanding how useful specific data is and thus I brought some context to it, which you decided to not do.

Quote

Did you know I had an argument with an entire guild that didn't know that Jalis Roads can effect more than 5 targets? Why did nobody believe me you ask? Because their commander said I was wrong and he was right just because he is the commander he "obviously" must know right?

 

Ask Howl himself he will tell you how Jalis Roads can hit up to 25/30 targets however many it is...both enemy and allied. 

 

 

I don't doubt you had an argument with someone. I also don't doubt that you might have been right. My guess though is, if you had approached the issue in a more diplomatic and less arrogant way, others might have listened more. Then again, that is my personal assumption based on non scientific observations about how you approach topics.

Edited July 8, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

I don't doubt you had an argument with someone. I also don't doubt that you might have been right. My guess though is, if you had approached the issue in a more diplomatic and less arrogant way, others might have listened more.

 

I'll tell you the story.

 

I asked the commander to place me in my own subgroup, for reasons to do with my build and that it performs better when I have my own subgroup. They agreed with me...everything was cool. Then a lieutenant (not) the commander moves me back into a group. I ignore it...and I don't bother to ask again until after the 3rd or 4th wipe...which started happening after being moved to this subgroup.

 

I politely asked again to be moved....At that point i had to explain to everyone and not just the commander, on why i needed to be moved...I told them that my build is designed to support between 15 - 20 people at a time, and that being in a subgroup makes that not possible to do...or rather it severely gimps the effectiveness of the build that I was playing on. The lieutenant refused to acknowledge that issue...and then there was the 5th and final wipe. 

 

The reason we were wiping so much is because our group didn't have any guardians...so we basically had no stability. As a revenant I can provide stability even if it's only 1 stack, to up to 25 people at a time every 10s or so... it's only a stack but still it was something and i'm pretty good at supporting solo a group of 15-20...But because I was in one group, the buffs would reapply to party members only and not to the squad...so there were 4 other subgroups not receiving stability and we wiped hard everytime.

 

I tried explaining all of this in a very polite manner and the response i got was "Jalis roads only effects 5 people." over and over and over again...and i even demonstrated in real time, how Jalis Roads can effect up to 30 people, by simply being in ones own party. At that point the group was already disbanded and I was just mad because nobody, not even after demonstrating it to this guild, people were still denying that it was true. Then you know what they told me after 30 minutes of this? They said "Maybe if you were more polite..." 

 

Sorry but I'm a regular human being and I only have so much patience...I'm not a teacher or a babysitter or a nanny. I will not sit here and explain the same basic thing hundreds of times, when you can easily confirm things for yourself (called independent verification)...and in-fact I encourage doing this...PLEASE for the love of my own sanity... confirm or deny it for yourself...so that I don't have to waste another 4 hours explaining post after post the same basic things.

[Zikory.6871]

3 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

I'll tell you the story.

 

I asked the commander to place me in my own subgroup, for reasons to do with my build and that it performs better when I have my own subgroup. They agreed with me...everything was cool. Then a lieutenant (not) the commander moves me back into a group. I ignore it...and I don't bother to ask again until after the 3rd or 4th wipe...which started happening after being moved to this subgroup.

 

I politely asked again to be moved....At that point i had to explain to everyone and not just the commander, on why i needed to be moved...I told them that my build is designed to support between 15 - 20 people at a time, and that being in a subgroup makes that not possible to do...or rather it severely gimps the effectiveness of the build that I was playing on. The lieutenant refused to acknowledge that issue...and then there was the 5th and final wipe. 

 

The reason we were wiping so much is because our group didn't have any guardians...so we basically had no stability. As a revenant I can provide stability even if it's only 1 stack, to up to 25 people at a time every 10s or so... it's only a stack but still it was something and i'm pretty good at supporting solo a group of 15-20...But because I was in one group, the buffs would reapply to party members only and not to the squad...so there were 4 other subgroups not receiving stability and we wiped hard everytime.

 

I tried explaining all of this in a very polite manner and the response i got was "Jalis roads only effects 5 people." over and over and over again...and i even demonstrated in real time, how Jalis Roads can effect up to 30 people, by simply being in ones own party. At that point the group was already disbanded and I was just mad because nobody, not even after demonstrating it to this guild, people were still denying that it was true. Then you know what they told me after 30 minutes of this? They said "Maybe if you were more polite..." 

 

Sorry but I'm a regular human being and I only have so much patience...I'm not a teacher or a babysitter or a nanny. I will not sit here and explain the same basic thing hundreds of times, when you can easily confirm things for yourself (called independent verification)...and in-fact I encourage doing this...PLEASE for the love of my own sanity... confirm or deny it for yourself...so that I don't have to waste another 4 hours explaining post after post the same basic things.

Obviously I have no context to the guild in question but if you joined my group and was telling me what to do, I'd ignore or kick you too. Flat out not Heralds role and while road is super strong, its stationary and its a huge waste of potential to be a road stab bot instead of just swapping to Firebrand and supporting a competent Herald. 

Cool story about why everyone uses Firebrands and prefers meta classes though. 

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

22 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

You literally made up rotations in your very first opening post. Those rotations if taken at face value would have been a detriment to any player who does not know how to put the provided information into context. If you don't want to make sure that the information you provide harms other players, then others might.

 

First off...those rotations were part of an example for how to create a burst sequence analysis in response to god inquiring about how it might be interesting if there was a burst sequence analysis. I said that one would make an explicit analysis doing X Y and Z, and then i gave two examples for how one can derive a sequence from the proposed analysis structure.

 

And also...what was so detrimental about it again? That rotation is nearly identical to howls...with one skill switched (NCSY and Signet of Locust swap places...and Nightfall in the end rather than the beginning)

 

And also, Howl added a skills to make his burst longer...the hypothetical I was talking about with God was about a 3 second burst...not a 30 second burst sequence....In other words there was no semblance of actually addressing what me and God was talking about...at all...he interjected with his own rotation that he used...which by pretty good approximation is like 95% similar to the rotation I came up with based on pure mathematical modeling.

 

Also something to note , is that a build that consists of NCSY, SoL and Well of Corruption is not exactly good either. A build where 3 utilities are used to strip boons, means you lack life force generation, mobility and perhaps other variety of skills that you might want to have depending on what your comp needs and the playstyle you choose. In other words, just because your entire build is made of boon-strips, doesn't mean you become god meta...you simply brought skills that give you a higher potential to strip boons-strips...that's it.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

45 minutes ago, Zikory.6871 said:

Obviously I have no context to the guild in question but if you joined my group and was telling me what to do, I'd ignore or kick you too. Flat out not Heralds role and while road is super strong, its stationary and its a huge waste of potential to be a road stab bot instead of just swapping to Firebrand and supporting a competent Herald. 

Cool story about why everyone uses Firebrands and prefers meta classes though. 

 

I actually wasn't playing Herald. I was playing a sort of DPS Alacrity Renegade, with Jalis for stability and Mallyx for Resistance (pre-nerf resistance). So my stability uptime was every 7-8 seconds so I could effectively maintain stability on the squad, and keep them immune to condi's while waiting for Jalis cooldown while i did damage. We had some Ele supports so we had healing...we just didn't have stability...thats all.

 

But ya it's this kind of...attitude, that makes it hard to actually change the meta or test zerg-scale mechanics in WvW.

 

A) the inability to accept new information

B) the lack of willingness to test things.

 

If I told you something, then the natural human response would be to go and see if what I told you is true or not for yourself...especially if what I told you is pretty novel like "Gaze of Darkness has no target cap." But the typical answer you'd get is : "nooo you are wrong i don't need to do anything to prove that i just know that you are wrong, because I'm a good player i just know." 

Edited July 8, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Zikory.6871]

3 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

I actually wasn't playing Herald. I was playing a sort of DPS Alacrity Renegade, with Jalis for stability and Mallyx for Resistance (pre-nerf resistance). So my stability uptime was every 7-8 seconds so I could effectively maintain stability on the squad, and keep them immune to condi's while waiting for Jalis cooldown while i did damage. We had some Ele supports so we had healing...we just didn't have stability...thats all.

 

But ya it's this kind of...attitude, that makes it hard to actually change the meta or test zerg-scale mechanics in WvW.

 

A) the inability to accept new information

B) the lack of willingness to test things.

 

If I told you something, then the natural human response would be to go and see if what I told you is true or not for yourself...especially if what I told you is pretty novel like "Gaze of Darkness has no target cap." But the typical answer you'd get is : "nooo you are wrong i don't need to do anything to prove that i just know that you are wrong, because I'm a good player i just know." 

Stability every 7-8s while using mallyx even though legend swap is 10s and not effected by alacrity? 

I'd stop you right there and not listed to the rest tbh. 
 

[Stand The Wall.6987]

4 minutes ago, Zikory.6871 said:

Stability every 7-8s while using mallyx even though legend swap is 10s and not effected by alacrity? 

I'd stop you right there and not listed to the rest tbh. 
 

road right before legend swap is a decent 6sec stab, or true nature 2 stax at 9sec (both assuming max boon duration). don't have a horse in this race, jus sayin mayne.

[Zikory.6871]

Just now, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

road right before legend swap is a decent 6sec stab, or true nature 2 stax at 9sec (both assuming max boon duration). don't have a horse in this race, jus sayin mayne.

Hes renegade so no true nature but fair. Have fun standing in place for 6s...

Trying to shove a squad peg into a round hole isn't changing the meta. 

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

44 minutes ago, Zikory.6871 said:

Stability every 7-8s while using mallyx even though legend swap is 10s and not effected by alacrity? 

I'd stop you right there and not listed to the rest tbh. 
 

 

Jalis Roads can be used twice while in Jalis. Once you hit Jalis roads the second time, you swap into Mallyx to do resistance stuff. By the time stability wears off in Mallyx, Jalis will be off cooldown and you can swap into Jalis to cast Jalis roads again.

 

Because Jalis Roads has a pulse duration, you will always have stability. On the last pulse which is on the 6th second, it will give you a boon that lasts for 6 seconds, meaning it can potentially give you 2 seconds of spillover time from the time you used Jalis roads before swapping Legends. So typically you'll have at least 10 (at most 30) people with Stability at any given moment.

 

You can do the same thing without alacrity too, and still get the same effect. However on that build I also used the alacrity to maintain it on 40 people at a time. It pulses on 10 people, and each pulse lasts for some time. I don't remember how long...but ya that was another aspect of that build. In addition, Resistance was also used in the same way. It lasted for like 6 seconds or something and because i could spam it 3 or 4 times in mallyx, i could keep resistence on 10 - 20 people at a time, in the time I was in mallyx.

 

Traditionally you use the build in a standard 5 man party comp...it's just that your boons ... rather than being distributed through out the squad, are instead just continuously stacked only on your 5 party members. You can imagine that if you are in a fight, and the fight only lasts for a very short period of time, it's more important to have the coverage then it is to just stack the kitten out of the boons on a small pool of players...especially when those boon stacks are getting stripped. 

Edited July 9, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

Anyway, I updated the spreadsheets, to now include potential values for warrior skills.

 

If anyone has any more information they'd want to contribute, or if i missed something...let me know

 

Warrior Spreadsheet

https://i.imgur.com/DIWPCW6.png

 

Personal Input: 

The most interesting thing i find here on this list that isn't obvious, is the contribution of Sigil of nullification has to boon stripping. Essentially, so long as you are hitting people in combat no interrupts or hard CC's required, you are stripping boons and procing Enchantment Collapse every 5 seconds, and this is why the potential with this sigil is so high, in comparison to it's partner sigil, which doesn't proc Enchantment Collapse due to EC's internal CD.

Edited July 9, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684