So What's The Status of Icebrood Saga In This Situation

[Kraggy.4169]

I just upgraded a base-game account with the PoF Ultimate Edition because it seemed the best value for my needs: extra slot, gems for a few upgrades, etc.

 

On this page advertising the PoF upgrades ( https://buy.guildwars2.com/store/gw2/en_IE/html/pbPage.pathoffire/themeID.4785548100 )  it clearly states for all versions:  "Living World: The Icebrood Saga"

 

This can't be read as anything other than this content is part of what you're purchasing and will playable, in the same way HoT is listed just above it.

 

However, on my account the Saga is there but chapters 1 - 4 are locked, only Champions is playable.  I opened a ticket for this and this is the reply I got:

 

"We understand you recently have purchased Path of Fire and did not receive the Icebrood Saga. It should be noted that the expansion itself does not include the Icebrood Saga living world season. The store page listing the season within the list of features means that Path of Fire is required to access all the Icebrood Saga content. However, you will receive the latest episode for free during the episode's free release period."

 

The part I've highlighted is absurd, no way does the list of features mean what the CS reply asserts.

 

Does it?

 

My ticket says:

 

"As in Subject, I bought the Ultimate Edition of PoF which according to the store page includes: Living World: The Icebrood Saga
This is in my journal but LOCKED and requiring 200 gems to unloick!
It was there before I bought the upgrade.
Why is it still locked?"

 

How on earth does this CS rep come up with ""and did not receive the Icebrood Saga".?

Edited July 12, 2021 by Kraggy.4169

[Tanek.5983]

I have been making this argument since the day they started advertising Icebrood as part of the purchase. It is at best unclear and at worst deceptive.

 

If you read into the fine print, it does eventually somewhere say that it gives you access to unlock  and play "the current" Icebrood episode or something like that (I'll dig up where that is when I have a minute), but even if you see that, if you are a new player and/or not familiar with the living world episode unlocks, it is meaningless in the face of the ad that says the purchase includes the Icebrood Saga.

 

I am 100% with you on this, even though I personally know how they mean it to work. It should NEVER have been advertised as part of the package alongside HoT and PoF. Not in this way. I think anyone who bought PoF seeing that included should get all episodes unlocked period. Might not be a fight that can be won, but in my mind it would be the right thing to do for as long as they keep advertising it the way they are.

 

EDIT: ok, when you click on the details on the purchase page, it says

Quote

Owners of Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire can play new Living World episodes as soon as they’re live. Upgrade your account now and play the latest episode of our all-new Living World story, the Icebrood Saga, today.*

Again, I do not think this is clear, especially if you are not familiar with how the episodes have been unlocked, but I can see where their intent is probably to say that you can play the episodes you *do* have unlocked rather than that the purchase unlocks them all. It is VERY poorly communicated.

Plus, there is that * at the end that seems to imply more information linked somewhere, but If so I can't find what it is referring to.

Edited July 12, 2021 by Tanek.5983

[Kraggy.4169]

I just got antoher reply:

 

"As it was mentioned previously, The store page listing the season within the list of features means that Path of Fire is required to access all the Icebrood Saga content. If you do not have Path of Fire you would be unable to participate in the Icebrood Saga Episodes despite logging in to receive the latest episode for free during the episode's free release period.

Due to this, we will be unable to assist in providing any Icebrood Saga Episodes as they must be unlocked by paying the Gem Cost or logging in to receive the latest episode."

 

which is beyond fatuous, as I then pointed out, above the Saga item is HoT, so using the asinine logic the CS rep. is using to assert MEANS, that would MEAN HoT needs PoF to play .. clearly beyond stupid.

 

Clearly Anet want to gouge 1000 gems out of me for something I already paid for but it stinks.

Edited July 12, 2021 by Kraggy.4169

[Healix.5819]

They're currently replaying through the entire living world, which is currently on season 3 episode 2. You'll get all IBS episodes for free in a few months.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Just an FYI, you (if a new player) do need Path of Fire to play/access Heart of Thorns, as they only come in a bundle.

In fact, you need Path of Fire to play any part of Guild Wars 2 other than the limited Play4Free (extended trial) version, if new.  

If not new, then one is familiar with how Living World Season Episodes work; the text on the purchase page said "Living World Season..." previously (before the name change to 'The Icebrood Saga'). 

 

If you look at the purchase page, and place your cursor over each item listed in the different versions, you will find an explanation of said item(s).

 

You are fortunate to have come back now, as you have missed only one free Living World Episode that includes a map.  (Be sure to unlock the current free Episode before 9am PDT tomorrow.)

 

Welcome return, and good luck. 

[Tanek.5983]

14 minutes ago, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

Just an FYI, you (if a new player) do need Path of Fire to play/access Heart of Thorns, as they only come in a bundle.

In fact, you need Path of Fire to play any part of Guild Wars 2 other than the limited Play4Free (extended trial) version, if new.  

If not new, then one is familiar with how Living World Season Episodes work; the text on the purchase page said "Living World Season..." previously (before the name change to 'The Icebrood Saga'). 

 

If you look at the purchase page, and place your cursor over each item listed in the different versions, you will find an explanation of said item(s).

 

You are fortunate to have come back now, as you have missed only one free Living World Episode that includes a map.  (Be sure to unlock the current free Episode before 9am PDT tomorrow.)

 

Welcome return, and good luck. 

You have to admit, the way it is presented is not at all clear for a new player and can even be a little confusing for a returning player. The marketing on this had been, in my opinion, a problem from the start and has never been cleaned up.

Edited July 12, 2021 by Tanek.5983

[EnviableDepth.9670]

Just run into this myself. The Amazon store page still explicitly lists it as included. I told support they should change it if it's not true and they haven't replied. I can't believe this thread existed a year ago!

 

"if not new, then one is familiar with how Living World Season Episodes work; the text on the purchase page said "Living World Season..." previously (before the name change to 'The Icebrood Saga').  " I did not know that it used to be called living world. It functions like a living world season, why would they not call it a living world season on the store page?

 

if someone is not new then they are not going to be buying Path of Fire, that is ridiculous reasoning. I have played for over 50 hours before I found out I need to fork out for another 1600/2000 gems. ANet were smart with this scam because all of the veterans who got it for free will defend them. You are telling new players to get lost.

Edited July 15, 2022 by EnviableDepth.9670

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Until a new Living World Season/Episode is released, the text on Amazon is still valid.  Purchasing any expansion will, and always has, included the latest Living World Episode.  In this case, presently, the last 'The Icebrood Saga' episode, 'Champions'. 

Now, there is information included that is untrue and should be updated, to wit:  Additional Requirements:   Requires full version of Guild Wars 2 to play (sold separately).

Edited July 15, 2022 by Inculpatus cedo.9234

[EnviableDepth.9670]

That is only clear to you because you already know how it works. There is no mention of episodes.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

No mention of Seasons, either, to be fair. 

[EnviableDepth.9670]

4 minutes ago, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

No mention of Seasons, either, to be fair. 

Exactly, nothing implies you are only getting the final episode of a season and an additional purchase is required for the rest. It seems intentionally misleading.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Well, I would not put too much emphasis on Amazon's descriptions; on the Heart of Thorns page, they claim the product weighs 30 pounds,...more than once.  Lol. 

[EnviableDepth.9670]

9 minutes ago, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

Well, I would not put too much emphasis on Amazon's descriptions; on the Heart of Thorns page, they claim the product weighs 30 pounds,...more than once.  Lol. 

Are these pages written by Amazon rather than ArenaNet? That would be more forgivable but I think they are still responsible for it and need to have it updated. It doesn't feel good to find out I only bought half of the story once I reached HoT.

[Shiina.4192]

The thing is that players new to GW2 do not know how Living World works or what it even is. It's only referred to as "Living World" on the website, so there's no way of guessing it may be additional paid content at all. They don't know it's a series separate from their expansions (as in, it was released before or after HoT or PoF), but the idea that you require X expansion to play X episode in X season is what makes one assume that said content will be included with the expansion. Let's not forget that new players may also assume that LW is free content instead of something included with the xpac. I did fall in the same trap back in the day, because nothing about LW was explained on the website.

So I agree that it's intentionally misleading, and quite scammy. I really don't get the mental gymnastics behind this.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Aselia.1325

[GODh.3892]

On 7/12/2021 at 6:00 PM, Kraggy.4169 said:

On this page advertising the PoF upgrades ( https://buy.guildwars2.com/store/gw2/en_IE/html/pbPage.pathoffire/themeID.4785548100 )  it clearly states for all versions:  "Living World: The Icebrood Saga"

Weird thing is that when i click that link i do not see that text?

But i believe you as i have seen more people complain about the same thing.

I think that page has been made BEFORE de release of Icebrood Saga (IBS). LW is free content for active players. Even if you login only 1x per month then you are safe. But when you miss episodes then you need to buy them via the gemstore. Between the date when that page has been created and today, IBS has been released (and re-released) and now it is not free anymore. I think the main problem is that they did not update the text on that page (which i think is sloppy).

Personally i think Anet should reconsider their system for LW. Especially with a Steam release on the horizon.

[Linken.6345]

2 hours ago, EnviableDepth.9670 said:

Are these pages written by Amazon rather than ArenaNet? That would be more forgivable but I think they are still responsible for it and need to have it updated. It doesn't feel good to find out I only bought half of the story once I reached HoT.

It is most likely Amazon and they just took the bullet points from Anet website.

On the main guildwars 2 site you could click the include the icebrood saga living world and get a clarification that it only was the latest episode released.

If you notice in the pictures in the from the manufacturer it dont say anything of the icebrood saga at all anymore.

[Tanek.5983]

On 7/15/2022 at 10:47 AM, Linken.6345 said:

It is most likely Amazon and they just took the bullet points from Anet website.

On the main guildwars 2 site you could click the include the icebrood saga living world and get a clarification that it only was the latest episode released.

If you notice in the pictures in the from the manufacturer it dont say anything of the icebrood saga at all anymore.

If Amazon is the responsible party here and ANet has no say in the text (I think they should, but don't know how it works), anyone buying PoF from the site would, I think, have a good case against Amazon for false advertising.

Edited July 16, 2022 by Tanek.5983
spelling

[EnviableDepth.9670]

I don't think Amazon could really be managing many product pages themselves. Based on this Amazon page, I would guess it is ArenaNet who wrote the description and they are also responsible for updating it. I am no lawyer but PoF does seem to be breaking the rules set by Amazon along with local laws against misleading advertising. It is definitely in their interest to remove the statement about The Icebrood Saga.

 

I can't find anything about IBS on their website now either so I think they must have updated that already. The issue still exists not just on the US amazon page but all EU sites that I have checked as well.

 

The whole living world system is really confusing for a new player (certainly was for me) and this doesn't help at all. I would also have much rather just had the Ultimate Collection include LW rather than 4000 gems since you don't really have a choice on what to spend them on anyway. At the very least tell me what LW is so I can tell if I want it before I waste them on unbreakable tools.

[GODh.3892]

9 hours ago, EnviableDepth.9670 said:

I would also have much rather just had the Ultimate Collection include LW rather than 4000 gems since you don't really have a choice on what to spend them on anyway.

LW = PvE. There are also players who do not like PvE. They only play GW2 for the PvP and/or WvW (and probably do not care about LW).

PS: Unbreakable tools are very useful

Edited July 17, 2022 by GODh.3892
added PS

[EnviableDepth.9670]

Thanks for the info, the playerbase has been really helpful in general. I don't mind buying the tools because at least I knew exactly what they were beforehand. It's just I would have bought S2 instead if I knew how lost I would feel in HoT without it. I already bought S3 and I am probably going to buy S4 and IBS but I feel like I have to buy them to play the xpacs that I already bought. For me LW are hidden fees.

 

I get some people might not be interested in the story, in which case they can still buy the normal collection along with whatever gems they want seperately. The Ultimate Collection actually doesn't offer any extra discount so it seems like the purpose of it is for new players to be able to buy LW, only that is not explained at all and you have at least 80 levels worth of game time before you're going to find out. Story players need to know that they are missing important parts of the story before they've spent them. It just seems like a trick as it is. Personally I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt but I've found myself not enjoying the game as much since. I imagine other people are still falling for it, whether intentional or not. The reasoning doesn't really matter, the fact is multiple people are saying they feel misled, many veterans can understand why and there is bound to be many more who haven't complained on the forums.

 

I actually think I saw LW S2 on the website before I bought the collection, it's the only one they sell on there. Listed under 'in-game items' (??? yes, I know it's in the gem store but still) and the description reads:

 

"Experience an epic journey through all eight episodes of Living World Season 2 that leads to the Heart of Maguuma and puts you alongside fellow heroes to take a stand against an ancient and growing threat. The suspense and action builds with every episode to a finale you won't soon forget."

 

I can see now that 'leads to the Heart of Maguuma' means it explains the beginnning of Heart of Thorns. It's interesting how I've seen S2 widely regarded as the worst of LW yet it's the only one you are allowed to buy before you start the game and also the most expensive. At the time I read the description and thought it sounded like a self contained story (an epic journey with a finale) set in the Heart of Maguuma (since I was not aware that is where HoT is set). I completely forgot it existed afterwards. In my view, the dishonest/incompetent marketing is indefensible. It lets down an otherwise fantastic game.

Edited July 17, 2022 by EnviableDepth.9670

[voltaicbore.8012]

19 minutes ago, EnviableDepth.9670 said:

I feel like I 'have' to buy them to play the xpacs that I already bought. For me LW are hidden fees.

And this is really the heart of the issue, and my primary gripe with LW.

LW is (poorly) marketed and sold as if it is optional DLC that you see for many other games. It's not included in any of the 'complete' editions of the games, and your story progress is not stopped cold because you're missing any of the LW seasons. In that regard it looks very much like truly optional DLC.

But for many players who actually care about coherence in the game's main story, LW is definitely not optional. My first major expenditure of gems in this game was S2. When I reached HoT, and was suddenly surrounded by a bunch of bozos calling me 'Boss' and I had absolutely no clue who any of them were, I figured I was missing some content. The joke was on me, because it turns out even S2 didn't introduce who the new cast was, apparently that was in S1 which I discovered didn't exist anymore.

I think ANet made a huge step in the right direction by re-introducing S1 and making it free for all accounts, forever. However, that really only introduces the LW system to players who have installed and are playing through the story in-game, and does nothing for consumers trying to figure out what they're getting at the point of sale.

I see the following as the best possible outcomes, ranked in order of consumer friendliness:

1. Increase the price of any edition of the game currently sold as "complete", and include all currently released LW content
2. Continue to sell the current set of packages but label them "expansions only," while adding an appropriately priced "complete" edition that includes LW
3. Continue to sell the current set of packages as-is, but at least begin marketing and selling more LW bundles (currently S2 is the only one, and it's hidden behind at least one click)
4. Change nothing about how packages and LW is currently sold, but at least stop putting main story elements into LW.

Again, making S1 free for every single player was a step in the right direction, but something still needs to be done for the mess that LW is at the point of sale. Even more so than nonsense like raid accessibility, I feel like figuring out how to manage S1 is an important element of a successful Steam launch. I can easily see the LW confusion becoming a central news item regarding the launch. Gaming journalism is of course questionable at best, and nobody should be surprised to see such outlets latching onto a few angry stories about getting refunds because of LW and turning it into the prevailing narrative about a botched GW2 Steam launch.

As an aside, I'm really disappointed ANet is still actually thinking about a Steam launch. I really don't think it's worth it.

[GODh.3892]

Yes, sadly marketing is not Anet's strong point.

LW is free content, but when you miss an episode due inactivity, then you have to pay for it (although LW1 will always be free). This is mostly a problem for new and returning players who missed a lot or all episodes. And they often find out after buying the game or expansion (a lot of them will be angry and/or frustrated about it).

I think Anet hopes to welcome a lot of new players when they release GW2 via Steam. Hopefully this is enough reason to change their LW policy, to make at least some old parts free (like LW2, 3 and 4).

But playing LW2, 3, 4 and IBS can be very rewarding (like a free legendary amulet). Make sure you check this wiki-link:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Current_Events#Seasons_of_the_Dragons

Edited July 17, 2022 by GODh.3892
typos

[EnviableDepth.9670]

I like the first two solutions you've presented. They seem like relatively quick and easy changes to make as well. And it wouldn't upset anyone.

 

My ideal solution is that all of the old seasons are bundled with the relevant expansions, the idea that older content is worth more than new is completely backwards. This might annoy players that already bought them but it would result in a more successful steam release if that's the direction they want to go. Charge for new content as it's released and discount them later like the expansions do already.

 

Announce this at least a couple of months in advance. I would like to see gems refunded, at least within a certain time period, but that could mess with the gem gold exchange rate and sell less gems so I don't see it happening.

Edited July 17, 2022 by EnviableDepth.9670

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Receiving 4000 Gems with an Ultimate purchase is not for purchasing past Living World Episodes only, as it has been available since Heart of Thorns.  One could have purchased Living World Season 2, and had plenty of Gems left over.

Living World Season Two costs more as Season costs are based on the number of Episodes; Season Two has 8, all the others have 6.

There is an extra discount in the Ultimate edition;  4000 Gems for $25 instead of the regular $50 for 4000 Gems.

[EnviableDepth.9670]

20 minutes ago, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

There is an extra discount in the Ultimate edition;  4000 Gems for $25 instead of the regular $50 for 4000 Gems.

You are right, I forgot about the deluxe version, however personally I never would have bought that and I consider it very poor value. I bought the extra gems to spend in the gem store and I worked out at the time that I was basically just getting a couple of free cosmetics.

 

Like I said, I understand the twisted logic behind the wording now. It still doesn't justify the marketing which you can clearly see is misleading. A product page should be designed for prospective customers not veteran players, staff members or corporate bootlickers.

 

This isn't something I realised was up for debate. I have been buying games for a long time and this is the first time I have encountered something as bad as this. The collection may be legal. However the description on the Amazon page I am certain is illegal in the US, EU and UK. If you disagree then explain how the amazon page is not likely to "mislead consumers and affect consumers' behaviour about a product". This is required by the FTC. The statement implies that The Icebrood Saga is included with Path of Fire, and leaves out the fact that an additional purchase is required.