Make Resistance affect Poison modifiers and Revert Resistance durations

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

29 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

I appreciate the thought as much I gave myself to it, all conditions have some form of counter to it outside cleansing, Poison still being exempt of having the same amount of counters as other damaging/non damaging conditions because it deals damage shouldn't matter. Afterall it is an effect that doesn't require condition damage to be effective, just like non damaging conditions.

 

It's an anomaly in the reasoning of Resistance, it breaks the game in several areas with Resistance.

 

Sure that's fair. I'm rather impartial to the subject here. Considering both sides of the argument, I do align with the notion that, one should consider that changes that effect poison or something that effects poison indirectly (like resistance), should also be thought of in terms of that relation to damage.

 

In other words, Buffing or nerfing resistance is indirectly, a buff or nerf to damage, depending on who is effected by that condition, or who is effected by that boon.... Will the outcome of those consequences be a good thing or a bad thing? I don't really know.

 

My perspective is whether such changes actually change anything on a global level to which one could deem it as being meaningful...that global level being whether more or less diversity comes about as a result of the change. I'm sure with enough analysis someone could draw a logical conclusion.

 

 

Edited August 7, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Shao.7236]

51 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

Sure that's fair. I'm rather impartial to the subject here. Considering both sides of the argument, I do align with the notion that, one should consider that changes that effect poison or something that effects poison indirectly (like resistance), should also be thought of in terms of that relation to damage.

 

In other words, Buffing or nerfing resistance is indirectly, a buff or nerf to damage, depending on who is effected by that condition, or who is effected by that boon.... Will the outcome of those consequences be a good thing or a bad thing? I don't really know.

 

My perspective is whether such changes actually change anything on a global level to which one could deem it as being meaningful...that global level being whether more or less diversity comes about as a result of the change. I'm sure with enough analysis someone could draw a logical conclusion.

 

 

Well, think of all the healing skills that cannot be effectively used because of poison, not even Rune of the Revenant is effective here whether you'd have Resistance on or not. The application needs to be before the healing skills, that introduces more moving parts and interrupts could lead to more devastating results.

 

Resistance isn't free in most cases. (Healing Signet or Revenant having to trait.) You have to invest in it, use something. 

[Lucentfir.7430]

You can have all the discussions why poison healing reduction should be affected by Resistance or not, but at the end of the day poison is considered a damaging condition, because it ticks damage. The way Anet made new resistance is if it does damage it's a damage condition, if it doesn't it's not a non damage condition. There's no 3rd party or split off effects of a condition. Making the poison's healing debuff nullified when you have resistance takes work that anet isn't willing to do for the little case of revenant or warrior.  You'd have a better chance hoping they split the healing debuff into it's own condition effect. Even then that'll bring up some issues mainly because in the past conditions had a cap for sever concerns, not to mention poison damage is lower compared to other conditions because it has the healing debuff attached. 

[Crab Fear.1624]

8 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

I appreciate the thought as much I gave myself to it, all conditions have some form of counter to it outside cleansing, Poison still being exempt of having the same amount of counters as other damaging/non damaging conditions because it deals damage shouldn't matter. Afterall it is an effect that doesn't require condition damage to be effective, just like non damaging conditions.

 

It's an anomaly in the reasoning of Resistance, it breaks the game in several areas with Resistance.

 

On 7/31/2021 at 10:05 PM, Shao.7236 said:

You didn't do the damage, it's a modifier.

 

Preventing has several meanings, back to the Chill argument. I hurt you for 6,026 because you didn't get to use it again in time.

 

It's not damage, it's a modifier. You're not HEALING by REDUCING damage. Same applies here.

 

Which came first, this or that? Doesn't matter because it's a modifier.

 

Nah we can't because the logic is flawed dude.

 

Oh yeah dude, Revenant is definitely the same as everything else but with more Resistance. It doesn't have to deal with anything else at all. 1 second of Resistance every 5 second? That's waaaaaay more than what Warrior, Guardian or even Ranger can get. So much much much more!

I guess you are not running mallyx?

 

If you only get 1 second.

 

Otherwise corruption and mallyx have very good resistance potential uptime.

 

Guess you can take a rune for some more.

 

If you ran mallyx and invocation even more.

 

If you felt brave and ran Revenant, then your f skill gives 3 secs too.

 

 

Meta or not, since you are tossing out wild comparisons, revenant has the highest potential uptime for resistance.

 

Heck you can put some on herald mallyx and swap to dragon use fskill and. BOost what is on you.

 

Of course, it's not really practical, just like your comparisons.

 

But a standard  mallyx player, this is actually pretty true.

 

Other anomalies, you need to see are the damaging conditions from sigil and the guaranteed crit sigils....

 

Some things are just a way, but receiving less healing, not healing, is damage.

 

I suggest that they remove the sigils that put poison on a foe, and the ones that guarantee crits.

 

Those should have stat points gained from runes, and access only by class design through skills.

 

So remove Sigil of Doom and intelligence

 

 

 

 

[Shao.7236]

3 hours ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

 

I guess you are not running mallyx?

 

If you only get 1 second.

 

Otherwise corruption and mallyx have very good resistance potential uptime.

 

Guess you can take a rune for some more.

 

If you ran mallyx and invocation even more.

 

If you felt brave and ran Revenant, then your f skill gives 3 secs too.

 

 

Meta or not, since you are tossing out wild comparisons, revenant has the highest potential uptime for resistance.

 

Heck you can put some on herald mallyx and swap to dragon use fskill and. BOost what is on you.

 

Of course, it's not really practical, just like your comparisons.

 

But a standard  mallyx player, this is actually pretty true.

 

Other anomalies, you need to see are the damaging conditions from sigil and the guaranteed crit sigils....

 

Some things are just a way, but receiving less healing, not healing, is damage.

 

I suggest that they remove the sigils that put poison on a foe, and the ones that guarantee crits.

 

Those should have stat points gained from runes, and access only by class design through skills.

 

So remove Sigil of Doom and intelligence

 

 

 

 

Go and see yourself how far spamming Resistance gets you, in the past it still wasn't an issue, Infuse Light was.

 

I know for a fact because I played without it and without spamming Resistance as core to which I've beaten the meta build I had popularized and everyone ran since.

 

Rune of Resistance was extreme cringe also just like the F2 radius on Mallyx Transfer.

 

The fact you could easily full heal because of Infuse Light was the real issue since Poison would actually reduce that healing on that but the duration of the healing lasted so long that on average any decent pressure meant fully healing.

 

They nerfed durations into the ground and the build was still relevant until Infuse Light was finally hit.

 

6 hours ago, Lucentfir.7430 said:

You can have all the discussions why poison healing reduction should be affected by Resistance or not, but at the end of the day poison is considered a damaging condition, because it ticks damage. The way Anet made new resistance is if it does damage it's a damage condition, if it doesn't it's not a non damage condition. There's no 3rd party or split off effects of a condition. Making the poison's healing debuff nullified when you have resistance takes work that anet isn't willing to do for the little case of revenant or warrior.  You'd have a better chance hoping they split the healing debuff into it's own condition effect. Even then that'll bring up some issues mainly because in the past conditions had a cap for sever concerns, not to mention poison damage is lower compared to other conditions because it has the healing debuff attached. 

They might as well make poison no longer do damage and let bleed take over. They're both similar anyway.

[Lucentfir.7430]

19 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

Go and see yourself how far spamming Resistance gets you, in the past it still wasn't an issue, Infuse Light was.

 

I know for a fact because I played without it and without spamming Resistance as core to which I've beaten the meta build I had popularized and everyone ran since.

 

Rune of Resistance was extreme cringe also just like the F2 radius on Mallyx Transfer.

 

The fact you could easily full heal because of Infuse Light was the real issue since Poison would actually reduce that healing on that but the duration of the healing lasted so long that on average any decent pressure meant fully healing.

 

They nerfed durations into the ground and the build was still relevant until Infuse Light was finally hit.

 

They might as well make poison no longer do damage and let bleed take over. They're both similar anyway.

Ofc you'd recommend that, I'm not even surprised by this response from you. Such a narrow scope and humorous to think they'd actually remove the damaging component just for spvp, just because your revenant eats a healing reduction because of a half baked delivery of Resistance. Good luck with that it's not going to pass the PVE smell test I'll tell you hwat.

[Lazze.9870]

4 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

They might as well make poison no longer do damage and let bleed take over. They're both similar anyway.

 

There is a flipside to this discussion, which is how it reduces the effectiveness of classes with a smaller variety of outgoing damaging conditions. Mainly ranger, which outside a couple of sources of burning has the majority of its condition damage done through bleeds and poison. Daggers do bleeding and poison, axe does bleeding, shortbow does bleeding and poison. Its condition modifier traits only affect bleeding and poison. Outside of Flame Trap, all condition damage utility skills are bleeding and poison. Thief is similar with a heavy focus on bleed and poison and traits that affect those, albeit with better torment access than ranger's burn access.

 

I can go along with how it would make sense for resistance to negate non-damaging condtion effects (instead of non-damaging conditions, and thus include poison). Being able to reduce healing, which is one of the reasons ranger gets away with basically only having two damaging conditions is a hard nerf in it self compared to how it is now. If they outright remove damage from poison I'd say it is a necessity to add some torment and confusion to ranger skills where it makes sense. Confusion on shortbow 5, torment on dagger 5, for example. Basically only having bleeds as your damaging condition would be horrible.

[Shao.7236]

5 hours ago, Lucentfir.7430 said:

Ofc you'd recommend that, I'm not even surprised by this response from you. Such a narrow scope and humorous to think they'd actually remove the damaging component just for spvp, just because your revenant eats a healing reduction because of a half baked delivery of Resistance. Good luck with that it's not going to pass the PVE smell test I'll tell you hwat.

With how meta condition is in PvE, idk. It could do for an interesting take.

 

Also figures that you narrow it down to personal bias in favor of profession when I basically stated that Poison affects my desire to even play anything else than specific power builds because I can't counter poison any other way than blasting on cleansing utility that's not readily available to Revenant like on any other class, on Warrior that being 75CD or on hit which doesn't guaranteed a safe outcome due to spam or keep any cleansing on Guardian exclusively to not having my healing skill be totally worthless while I could innovate with Rune of Resistance with Feel My Wrath or Save Yourselfs. It's easy to sit back and say use "x" skill and ignore the fact that with how things are, there's less diversity and we aren't advocating for it. Elementalist may sit on cleansing spam but it's not like you could do anything without it therefor you'll never get to do damage as other than Weaver Glasscanon, boring.

 

When I play Revenant, I actually care to not use my daggers with Poison if possible because I want my healing (Actually waiting it out yet Poison has one of the longer durations, could you believe it?), it's one way to play the game, but good luck doing that as Mallyx with no Evade utility, no actual Clearing, delayed Transfer trait, stunbreak/sustain utility that sucks conditions into you. I hear you scream Herald Mallyx F2 or Herald shield, good "diversity" on that forcing people to use an elite when Resistance doesn't prevent damage anymore, nor does clear. Herald wouldn't be anymore immune if not less because no Dwarf modifiers, aka having to make compromises for Infuse Light that used to carry the build with it's 3 second damage reversal that is still affected by Poison to this day then if you decide to go with Mallyx Dwarf as Herald, no Infuse Light.

 

The concept that Poison is overpowered right now isn't hard to understand of you experiment with any builds that does work but get cut short of innovation with Resistance being useless and condi spam simply takes over where as you made the compromise of investing in useless amount of Resistance. Does it need to be reminded that Resistance does not prevent damage nor clear conditions? Most of Resistance had it's durations completely eradicated, it's not like it would be OP to prevent people from pulling off plays that have more moving parts than just pressing the healing skill since they are compromises that were made.

 

1 hour ago, Lazze.9870 said:

 

There is a flipside to this discussion, which is how it reduces the effectiveness of classes with a smaller variety of outgoing damaging conditions. Mainly ranger, which outside a couple of sources of burning has the majority of its condition damage done through bleeds and poison. Daggers do bleeding and poison, axe does bleeding, shortbow does bleeding and poison. Its condition modifier traits only affect bleeding and poison. Outside of Flame Trap, all condition damage utility skills are bleeding and poison. Thief is similar with a heavy focus on bleed and poison and traits that affect those, albeit with better torment access than ranger's burn access.

 

I can go along with how it would make sense for resistance to negate non-damaging condtion effects (instead of non-damaging conditions, and thus include poison). Being able to reduce healing, which is one of the reasons ranger gets away with basically only having two damaging conditions is a hard nerf in it self compared to how it is now. If they outright remove damage from poison I'd say it is a necessity to add some torment and confusion to ranger skills where it makes sense. Confusion on shortbow 5, torment on dagger 5, for example. Basically only having bleeds as your damaging condition would be horrible.

 

Doubt on that, Bleeding does way more damage than it appear to, esp on Ranger, Poison effects are way more noticeable than the actual damage it gives. Renegade on Revenant has exactly what you wise for and even playing it right doesn't make it any better, I would rather have Poison than Torment on Sevenshot if it was sense because the only pre-requisite to be effective is application, not movement or button pressing.

 

When you decide on making the compromise to invest in Condition damage with Grieving or Destroyer, even Carrion. You always make a compromise that drastically change everything with the build, like transfering much of the crit damage into condition as the most obvious fact.

 

Most of what make condition builds viable is often proper use of an included AoE much like traps or say as a Revenant, Mace 2. Just to give you an example, I have more damage AND sustain potential as Shiro/Jalis than any Mallyx combination because of the Resistance changes. If you do not understand how that would make sense, I'll gladly elaborate further on it.

[Bewt.9258]

1 hour ago, Lazze.9870 said:

Basically only having bleeds as your damaging condition would be horrible.

Guardian has been doing fine with Burning being their only damaging condition. 

[Lazze.9870]

32 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

Doubt on that, Bleeding does way more damage than it appear to, esp on Ranger, Poison effects are way more noticeable than the actual damage it gives

 

I don't care if you doubt on that. Remove damage from poison, and you remove a significant component of ranger's conditon damage. That's not even up for discussion in my book. That's a fact. There have been potent condi ranger builds where poison even is your main source of damage.

 

Well, and I would like ranger shortbow to have the same power coefficients as renegade shortbow and a volley skill I can hit from range like sevenshot, but that's just how things are.

 

I'm not arguing against the fact that the healing denial is the strongest portion of it. That doesn't make the damage negliable. Far from it.

 

 

Edited August 8, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[Lazze.9870]

25 minutes ago, Bailios.7518 said:

Guardian has been doing fine with Burning being their only damaging condition. 

 

Yeah, maybe because burning has much higher burst potential at lower stacks and guardian is designed around doing condition damage through burning? While ranger is designed with both bleeding and poison in mind, thus having modifiers for both etc?

 

If you're gonna have one or the other as your class' only source of a damage condi, you'd pick burning 100 % of the time.

Edited August 8, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[Bewt.9258]

34 minutes ago, Lazze.9870 said:

 

If you're gonna have one or the other as your class' only source of a damage condi, you'd pick burning 100 % of the time.

Maybe if this was before Permeating Wrath and Eternal Armory nerf. But a bleeding condition that can be reapplied frequently has it's benefits. And why not remove Poisons damage but keep the healing modifier? It would still serve as a cover condi and be effective against healing. Doing both damage over time and a healing modifier and no longer be effected by Resistance which was already sparse just makes Poison have too much value.

[Lazze.9870]

2 minutes ago, Bailios.7518 said:

Maybe if this was before Permeating Wrath and Eternal Armory nerf. But a bleeding condition that can be reapplied frequently has it's benefits. And why not remove Poisons damage but keep the healing modifier? It would still serve as a cover condi and be effective against healing. Doing both damage over time and a healing modifier and no longer be effected by Resistance which was already sparse just makes Poison have too much value.

 

No, not "maybe". Prior to that nerf there is not even a debate.

 

It's not about why not, it's about the fact that flipping and switch and removing it would require some serious rework on a couple of affected classes, and ranger is one of them. I'm not gonna have a discussion about that, go play it yourself with arcdps on. Poison is a significant portion of a condi ranger's damage, to the point where you can make potent builds where it is your main source.

[Lucentfir.7430]

4 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

With how meta condition is in PvE, idk. It could do for an interesting take.

 

Also figures that you narrow it down to personal bias in favor of profession when I basically stated that Poison affects my desire to even play anything else than specific power builds because I can't counter poison any other way than blasting on cleansing utility that's not readily available to Revenant like on any other class, on Warrior that being 75CD or on hit which doesn't guaranteed a safe outcome due to spam or keep any cleansing on Guardian exclusively to not having my healing skill be totally worthless while I could innovate with Rune of Resistance with Feel My Wrath or Save Yourselfs. It's easy to sit back and say use "x" skill and ignore the fact that with how things are, there's less diversity and we aren't advocating for it. Elementalist may sit on cleansing spam but it's not like you could do anything without it therefor you'll never get to do damage as other than Weaver Glasscanon, boring.

 

When I play Revenant, I actually care to not use my daggers with Poison if possible because I want my healing (Actually waiting it out yet Poison has one of the longer durations, could you believe it?), it's one way to play the game, but good luck doing that as Mallyx with no Evade utility, no actual Clearing, delayed Transfer trait, stunbreak/sustain utility that sucks conditions into you. I hear you scream Herald Mallyx F2 or Herald shield, good "diversity" on that forcing people to use an elite when Resistance doesn't prevent damage anymore, nor does clear. Herald wouldn't be anymore immune if not less because no Dwarf modifiers, aka having to make compromises for Infuse Light that used to carry the build with it's 3 second damage reversal that is still affected by Poison to this day then if you decide to go with Mallyx Dwarf as Herald, no Infuse Light.

 

The concept that Poison is overpowered right now isn't hard to understand of you experiment with any builds that does work but get cut short of innovation with Resistance being useless and condi spam simply takes over where as you made the compromise of investing in useless amount of Resistance. Does it need to be reminded that Resistance does not prevent damage nor clear conditions? Most of Resistance had it's durations completely eradicated, it's not like it would be OP to prevent people from pulling off plays that have more moving parts than just pressing the healing skill since they are compromises that were made.

 

 

Doubt on that, Bleeding does way more damage than it appear to, esp on Ranger, Poison effects are way more noticeable than the actual damage it gives. Renegade on Revenant has exactly what you wise for and even playing it right doesn't make it any better, I would rather have Poison than Torment on Sevenshot if it was sense because the only pre-requisite to be effective is application, not movement or button pressing.

 

When you decide on making the compromise to invest in Condition damage with Grieving or Destroyer, even Carrion. You always make a compromise that drastically change everything with the build, like transfering much of the crit damage into condition as the most obvious fact.

 

Most of what make condition builds viable is often proper use of an included AoE much like traps or say as a Revenant, Mace 2. Just to give you an example, I have more damage AND sustain potential as Shiro/Jalis than any Mallyx combination because of the Resistance changes. If you do not understand how that would make sense, I'll gladly elaborate further on it.

Have your interesting take, but that's more reason why it's not going to change, the difference there they make for PVE is they actually make the game mode better most of the time rather than make it worse in comparison to PVP.  Priorities.

I narrow it down to personal bias because it is what it is, Poison has existed since the game's inception resistance has not nor did revenant. People dealt with poison just fine before those 2 even existed people dealt with. it. If you're not popping your heal because of poison, it's probably a situation where you don't even really need to use it, if you need healing bad or need to stop yourself from going down, you'll pop it regardless of if you have poison or not(ofc if you have the tools to do so it comes down to  gauging if it's worth using to get the full value of your heal) This seems to be a problem now because you've come to realize how well thought out the change to resistance actually was when you see how it's affected Revenant and Mallyx builds in general, you know the ones that's supposed to be thematically taking and  managing conditions? Who would've thought?  

.   Resistance was added in 2015 and from what I remember it existed because all the condi build users were crying about how warrior had a immunity to conditions through berserker stance(unique buff) and there was no counterplay, so poof Resistance was made, and it was a strippable boon for counterplay. There's a bit of a history lesson for why it's even a boon in the first place. 


I really do enjoy this, you're going over with me on Rev and your thought process ( even though I've played Rev before) and complaining. Trust me I know it sucks, but what I find absolutely comical is this is the balance direction you support, now that  you've played the implemented changes and affects the way your class plays negatively, suddenly poison is a BIG problem I'm sure if they tacked on a unique buff to Demonic Defiance to make resistance nullify all conditions again, you wouldn't have an issue with it. 

Poison being overpowered in design is like saying Cripple and Chill are OP in design because it makes kiting people impossible, even when you have swiftness on as a class that isn't very mobile. Also Bleeding and Posion both do intensity stacking ticking damage with bleeding obviously being the higher of the two but to say they should remove the damage just because bleeding is better, maybe you should consider in PVE builds condi ranger uses both, and your changes would actually nerf their damage for no good reason, not to mention rangers and thieves have traits that improve condi damage types? Again narrow scope. 

[Shao.7236]

5 minutes ago, Lucentfir.7430 said:

Have your interesting take, but that's more reason why it's not going to change, the difference there they make for PVE is they actually make the game mode better most of the time rather than make it worse in comparison to PVP.  Priorities.

I narrow it down to personal bias because it is what it is, Poison has existed since the game's inception resistance has not nor did revenant. People dealt with poison just fine before those 2 even existed people dealt with. it. If you're not popping your heal because of poison, it's probably a situation where you don't even really need to use it, if you need healing bad or need to stop yourself from going down, you'll pop it regardless of if you have poison or not(ofc if you have the tools to do so it comes down to  gauging if it's worth using to get the full value of your heal) This seems to be a problem now because you've come to realize how well thought out the change to resistance actually was when you see how it's affected Revenant and Mallyx builds in general, you know the ones that's supposed to be thematically taking and  managing conditions? Who would've thought?  

.   Resistance was added in 2015 and from what I remember it existed because all the condi build users were crying about how warrior had a immunity to conditions through berserker stance(unique buff) and there was no counterplay, so poof Resistance was made, and it was a strippable boon for counterplay. There's a bit of a history lesson for why it's even a boon in the first place. 


I really do enjoy this, you're going over with me on Rev and your thought process ( even though I've played Rev before) and complaining. Trust me I know it sucks, but what I find absolutely comical is this is the balance direction you support, now that  you've played the implemented changes and affects the way your class plays negatively, suddenly poison is a BIG problem I'm sure if they tacked on a unique buff to Demonic Defiance to make resistance nullify all conditions again, you wouldn't have an issue with it. 

Poison being overpowered in design is like saying Cripple and Chill are OP in design because it makes kiting people impossible, even when you have swiftness on as a class that isn't very mobile. Also Bleeding and Posion both do intensity stacking ticking damage with bleeding obviously being the higher of the two but to say they should remove the damage just because bleeding is better, maybe you should consider in PVE builds condi ranger uses both, and your changes would actually nerf their damage for no good reason, not to mention rangers and thieves have traits that improve condi damage types? Again narrow scope. 

You're putting too many words in my mouth, it affects everything that I play not just Revenant, the topic alone isn't even made by me either but highlights a ton of gameplay issues that Poison generates by just existing now.

 

I encouraged those changes because I hated that Resistance nullifed all damage when there's so many modifiers that I was personally using and being successful with, PA or AE being my only source of Resistance.

 

Then changing Retaliation to where I can flail on Guards with anything without constant punishement which is fun and all however still a buff in another direction which is good on them, but also other things such as Revenant using Resolution a lot.

 

Everything about those changes is good beside Poison modifiers not being affected by Resistance because you can't do jack but clear which narrows the already small amount of options to a single solution meanwhile all of the other conditions have at least 2 counters against them. Damage reduction/Immunity or clearing. Poison? Gets an exception down to one counter, the damage isn't menacing, the modifier is and if we're going to call that modifier damage then make Resolution 33% reduction in damage affect Poison 33% reduction in healing, which is honestly jank in the perspective of resistance but also one way that "could" be easier to implement but I call BS that either way is too hard to implement. You'd also unwillingly buff guards too while Resistance? It's already rare enough.

 

Real facts needless to say Poison literally makes Mallyx unplayable because you're punished for playing the legend right. With or without the trait, no one is asking for old resistance to make a return. At least fix the mechanics that broke under the changes.

 

I'll also skip on the lesson because I already know what the game was, there's wikipedia for that reason. Instead you should actually realize what you're saying here, because I am playing fine, I simply can't use Mallyx anymore because of fundamentals being broken. I'll just play power, my Guardian will have VoR dedicated to Poison, my Warrior will pick up dust and so will my Elementalist with all the remaining jank because picking anything but specific skills is mandatory to have the slightest of chance to not perish over the same situation again and again which is Poison destroying my ability to survive if I don't get the built-in healing skill cleanse or constant clearing to fight back the spam when I want to recover because I am not allowed to use anything else but clears.

[Lucentfir.7430]

2 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

You're putting too many words in my mouth, it affects everything that I play not just Revenant, the topic alone isn't even made by me either but highlights a ton of gameplay issues that Poison generates by just existing now.

 

I encouraged those changes because I hated that Resistance nullifed all damage when there's so many modifiers that I was personally using and being successful with, PA or AE being my only source of Resistance.

 

Then changing Retaliation to where I can flail on Guards with anything without constant punishement which is fun and all however still a buff in another direction which is good on them, but also other things such as Revenant using Resolution a lot.

 

Everything about those changes is good beside Poison modifiers not being affected by Resistance because you can't do jack but clear which narrows the already small amount of options to a single solution meanwhile all of the other conditions have at least 2 counters against them. Damage reduction/Immunity or clearing. Poison? Gets an exception down to one counter, the damage isn't menacing, the modifier is and if we're going to call that modifier damage then make Resolution 33% reduction in damage affect Poison 33% reduction in healing, which is honestly jank in the perspective of resistance but also one way that "could" be easier to implement but I call BS that either way is too hard to implement. You'd also unwillingly buff guards too while Resistance? It's already rare enough.

 

Real facts needless to say Poison literally makes Mallyx unplayable because you're punished for playing the legend right. With or without the trait, no one is asking for old resistance to make a return. At least fix the mechanics that broke under the changes.

 

I'll also skip on the lesson because I already know what the game was, there's wikipedia for that reason. Instead you should actually realize what you're saying here, because I am playing fine, I simply can't use Mallyx anymore because of fundamentals being broken. I'll just play power, my Guardian will have VoR dedicated to Poison, my Warrior will pick up dust and so will my Elementalist with all the remaining jank because picking anything but specific skills is mandatory to have the slightest of chance to not perish over the same situation again and again which is Poison destroying my ability to survive if I don't get the built-in healing skill cleanse or constant clearing to fight back the spam when I want to recover because I am not allowed to use anything else but clears.

I think that's just a front to say just say it isn't really about revenant but it really is about revenant, because Revenant is the one that suffers most from those changes and poison, the only other would be Spellbreaker who  suffered a great deal from the resistance change with Revenge Counter's only purpose is to hit through blind now. But warrior wise poison itself doesn't even affect mending due to how the function order is with that skill, remove first, heal after. Healing Signet is still garbage :shrug:, just a added bonus how the resistance change made it even more garbage than before, since you can't even use it to survive a burst of Condi damage now. Classes lived with poison before the time of resistance, they can live with it now.  


Mallyx is unplayable because the direction and competence of the one(s) who handle balance didn't take other classes into consideration with the change, nor did they even test them. Basically we're  beta testing these changes for them. If they played their own game and their own classes in such a setting you'd think they'd go  "Oh poison actually really messes up builds with Mallyx  and actually makes it negative to play with since it's punishing the player for drawing conditions to itself, we should find a way to make sure when this change rolls out we address that." But no they don't this is why these changes are half baked , and their game plan is just reactionary nerfing and removal without a fore thought, the unfortunate truth the original people who helped make the game good are actually long gone, I have my reservation with Grouch's return but I'll just have to wait and see.  

The retal change isn't bad, I think it's actually better effect now since you now have a condi equivalent to protection, something I think was needed for the game. You know what old retal really punished? People who'd blindly spam nades multi hit AoEs into groups those are the ones who really suffered from old retal.  So no I don't feel bad about the retal change because it got changed into something that was actually useful.

 Play whatever you want to play, . All I see rn is a nice copout answer, so i'll just say deal with it, and hope they fix it for your class whenever they get around to it, I think you're putting way too much stock into Poison's actual effectiveness across the board of classes and mashing it with your view . Also just because your view on it is bad, and  having a oh so  terrible time being inconvenienced with poison being a big OP design doesn't make it a fact that it's a OP design. Poison has its uses in both PVE builds and WvW situations and fulfills its intended uses well. Some actually might say poison is a bit UP in certain situations like in WvW since everything that was removed in spvp exist in WvW still. So expecting them to change the actual functionality of the condition solely for Spvp, the least cared for and respected game mode is very naive. 

[Shao.7236]

29 minutes ago, Lucentfir.7430 said:

I think that's just a front to say just say it isn't really about revenant but it really is about revenant, because Revenant is the one that suffers most from those changes and poison, the only other would be Spellbreaker who  suffered a great deal from the resistance change with Revenge Counter's only purpose is to hit through blind now. But warrior wise poison itself doesn't even affect mending due to how the function order is with that skill, remove first, heal after. Healing Signet is still garbage :shrug:, just a added bonus how the resistance change made it even more garbage than before, since you can't even use it to survive a burst of Condi damage now. Classes lived with poison before the time of resistance, they can live with it now.  


Mallyx is unplayable because the direction and competence of the one(s) who handle balance didn't take other classes into consideration with the change, nor did they even test them. Basically we're  beta testing these changes for them. If they played their own game and their own classes in such a setting you'd think they'd go  "Oh poison actually really messes up builds with Mallyx  and actually makes it negative to play with since it's punishing the player for drawing conditions to itself, we should find a way to make sure when this change rolls out we address that." But no they don't this is why these changes are half baked , and their game plan is just reactionary nerfing and removal without a fore thought, the unfortunate truth the original people who helped make the game good are actually long gone, I have my reservation with Grouch's return but I'll just have to wait and see.  

The retal change isn't bad, I think it's actually better effect now since you now have a condi equivalent to protection, something I think was needed for the game. You know what old retal really punished? People who'd blindly spam nades multi hit AoEs into groups those are the ones who really suffered from old retal.  So no I don't feel bad about the retal change because it got changed into something that was actually useful.

 Play whatever you want to play, . All I see rn is a nice copout answer, so i'll just say deal with it, and hope they fix it for your class whenever they get around to it, I think you're putting way too much stock into Poison's actual effectiveness across the board of classes and mashing it with your view . Also just because your view on it is bad, and  having a oh so  terrible time being inconvenienced with poison being a big OP design doesn't make it a fact that it's a OP design. Poison has its uses in both PVE builds and WvW situations and fulfills its intended uses well. Some actually might say poison is a bit UP in certain situations like in WvW since everything that was removed in spvp exist in WvW still. So expecting them to change the actual functionality of the condition solely for Spvp, the least cared for and respected game mode is very naive. 

Just ignore everything else that I've said again. It's hard to believe you go this far in to keep shoving in the idea that it only affects me when I'm not even the OP.

Edited August 9, 2021 by Shao.7236

[Lazze.9870]

3 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

Just ignore everything else that I've said again

 

You're fine with ignoring facts about poison with "doubt on that", though.

[Lucentfir.7430]

5 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

Just ignore everything else that I've said again. It's hard to believe you go this far in to keep shoving in the idea that it only affects me when I'm not even the OP.

Not sure why you're pointing out not being the OP, it's very apparent you're not, the difference between the OP's post and yours is their post actual has a point to prove that the changes are half baked and there was oversight and no thought of other classes and their skills/setups affected by the actual resistance changes, enough to question if past nerfs should be reverted on specific skills/setups that had that were also forgotten by such changes. Right now those resistance changes gave some increased value to poison against builds that normally featured resistance in it .

Meanwhile it looks like you're trying to piggyback on that and push some weird nerf agenda to say Poison is OP design and the problem and we should dismantle it and remove the ticking damage so it works under new resistance, mainly for the fact that it does indeed significantly impact Mallyx based revenant. Then throwing other examples to make it seem you're not only focused on Mallyx Rev.  Making it seem like a reasonable idea to suggest another half baked change for Spvp that would impact the other two game modes with the same carelessness as the Resistance changes. 🙄

@Bailios.7518 In all honesty I think maybe the best course for poison here would be for poison's healing debuff to scale with stacks like damage intensity, for every stack make it gives a -4% healing debuff, that way it ramps up and drops off based off skills used that give high amounts of poison on use. Also increase the healing debuff to a max of 66% or 80%(considering 80% mainly because stacking to 20 stacks of poison would be kinda hard without getting it removed or lower duration stacks even expiring.)  to reward builds that stack it high enough/with combined effort.

Edited August 9, 2021 by Lucentfir.7430

[Shao.7236]

11 hours ago, Lazze.9870 said:

 

You're fine with ignoring facts about poison with "doubt on that", though.

You don't pick up on people statement that doesn't have anything to with yours just to twist them like that, implying I ignored you and what you said at all, I don't have to reply for you to know that you are right.

 

I still doubt on it regardless, when I've seen bleeding reaching upwards of 2k per second  in a matter of little as 3 seconds when properly played with no heavy reliance on Poison to cover or add damage into. I'd be willing to bet one possibility that it's not even the damage that makes the build work but the fact that Poison can't be countered at all other than cleansing right now, which says a lot about the state of Condition builds period.

 

In PvE result is fairly obvious but we're talking PvP here, based on not just my personal opinion but the experience of other main rangers that I know, there's a lot of ways to make Condition damage work, like I said before.

 

This anomaly in Poison modifier could be the only reason why much of what anyone uses works better than before, but in the changes you have the second possibility that Condition damage now "always" tick and is never nullified unless enough modifiers are stacked which ultimately is another plausible reason why it works better than before and not just the modifier anomaly itself, if at all necessary because Resistance is not freely earned, nor does it last long enough to be impossible to counter given that if someone relies on it their healing skill can be also interrupted and waste the Resistance therefor have the final healing amount reduced through proper play.

 

Most of it will be kept reflecting on making sure the Healing skill is not affected while anything else passive will still get -33% reduced anyway which is big on top of all the other damage, keep in it it's not free to do so for the victim either which some don't seem to get.

 

9 hours ago, Lucentfir.7430 said:

Not sure why you're pointing out not being the OP, it's very apparent you're not, the difference between the OP's post and yours is their post actual has a point to prove that the changes are half baked and there was oversight and no thought of other classes and their skills/setups affected by the actual resistance changes, enough to question if past nerfs should be reverted on specific skills/setups that had that were also forgotten by such changes. Right now those resistance changes gave some increased value to poison against builds that normally featured resistance in it .

Meanwhile it looks like you're trying to piggyback on that and push some weird nerf agenda to say Poison is OP design and the problem and we should dismantle it and remove the ticking damage so it works under new resistance, mainly for the fact that it does indeed significantly impact Mallyx based revenant. Then throwing other examples to make it seem you're not only focused on Mallyx Rev.  Making it seem like a reasonable idea to suggest another half baked change for Spvp that would impact the other two game modes with the same carelessness as the Resistance changes. 🙄

@Bailios.7518 In all honesty I think maybe the best course for poison here would be for poison's healing debuff to scale with stacks like damage intensity, for every stack make it gives a -4% healing debuff, that way it ramps up and drops off based off skills used that give high amounts of poison on use. Also increase the healing debuff to a max of 66% or 80%(considering 80% mainly because stacking to 20 stacks of poison would be kinda hard without getting it removed or lower duration stacks even expiring.)  to reward builds that stack it high enough/with combined effort.

Mallyx, Mallyx, Mallyx, Rev main, Rev main, Rev main.

 

You go and play it, enjoy it. Let the legend gather dust idgaf, I have other alternatives to play that you refuse to acknowledge regardless. Should the point still not come across as how mechanically flawed this oversight is for many things, I am inclined to believe you are just trolling or too dense to realize anything in the picture which doesn't come off as a surprise from the average day on this forum. 🙄🙄🙄

Edited August 9, 2021 by Shao.7236

[Lucentfir.7430]

2 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

You don't pick up on people statement that doesn't have anything to with yours just to twist them like that, implying I ignored you and what you said at all, I don't have to reply for you to know that you are right.

 

I still doubt on it regardless, when I've seen bleeding reaching upwards of 2k per second  in a matter of little as 3 seconds when properly played with no heavy reliance on Poison to cover or add damage into. I'd be willing to bet one possibility that it's not even the damage that makes the build work but the fact that Poison can't be countered at all other than cleansing right now, which says a lot about the state of Condition builds period.

 

In PvE result is fairly obvious but we're talking PvP here, based on not just my personal opinion but the experience of other main rangers that I know, there's a lot of ways to make Condition damage work, like I said before.

 

This anomaly in Poison modifier could be the only reason why much of what anyone uses works better than before, but in the changes you have the second possibility that Condition damage now "always" tick and is never nullified unless enough modifiers are stacked which ultimately is another plausible reason why it works better than before and not just the modifier anomaly itself, if at all necessary because Resistance is not freely earned, nor does it last long enough to be impossible to counter given that if someone relies on it their healing skill can be also interrupted and waste the Resistance therefor have the final healing amount reduced through proper play.

 

Most of it will be kept reflecting on making sure the Healing skill is not affected while anything else passive will still get -33% reduced anyway which is big on top of all the other damage, keep in it it's not free to do so for the victim either which some don't seem to get.

 

Mallyx, Mallyx, Mallyx, Rev main, Rev main, Rev main.

 

You go and play it, enjoy it. Let the legend gather dust idgaf, I have other alternatives to play that you refuse to acknowledge regardless. Should the point still not come across as how mechanically flawed this oversight is for many things, I am inclined to believe you are just trolling or too dense to realize anything in the picture which doesn't come off as a surprise from the average day on this forum. 🙄🙄🙄

Again play whatever you want to play alternatives or not, copout answer, idgaf either I don't even care you're a Rev main I acknowledge you probably do multiclass, I know I do too but at the same time I have enough sense and experience (because I've played in a era of no resistance and limited condi clearing) to realize that other classes aren't even impacted by poison as you make it out to be like it's equal in terms of Mallyx rev on the impact of game performance/class/spec usability like poison makes builds unable to function, when really it's your own personal issue for how poison functions, enough to call it OP in design, enough to suggest some sort or radical nonsense change with as much oversight as the resistance change that will span to the two other more popular game modes.

If it's any consolation I used to enjoy playing condi rev which is a shame it's in its current state now and I don't like seeing specs/setups being put on the unusable bench (Along with a ton of other specs and professions that got put through the culling for the past 1+ year). I want Anet to actually make the game fun again with various profession flavors of unique playstyles and specs, specs that work at least decently and you're not funneled into a specific traitline because everything else is garbage because it's been nerfed to such a state to appease a bunch of players that only play the mode(s) for reward incentives. Also people trying to treat this game's balance like a MOBA without the MOBA design, schedule, or resources to do so. 


Ofc you'd think I'm trolling or so far to try and say I'm dense, not seeing the picture when really your shortsightedness is on full display here.  You're not seeing the picture as a whole, you're just looking at what's encompassing in your immediate narrow view. I'd say it's not good to be bootyhurt so just weather out the storm for now ,until whenever they patch, they might just fix something well enough.  But yes a normal day on these forums is right.👌  
 

[Shao.7236]

2 hours ago, Lucentfir.7430 said:

Again play whatever you want to play alternatives or not, copout answer, idgaf either I don't even care you're a Rev main I acknowledge you probably do multiclass, I know I do too but at the same time I have enough sense and experience (because I've played in a era of no resistance and limited condi clearing) to realize that other classes aren't even impacted by poison as you make it out to be like it's equal in terms of Mallyx rev on the impact of game performance/class/spec usability like poison makes builds unable to function, when really it's your own personal issue for how poison functions, enough to call it OP in design, enough to suggest some sort or radical nonsense change with as much oversight as the resistance change that will span to the two other more popular game modes.

If it's any consolation I used to enjoy playing condi rev which is a shame it's in its current state now and I don't like seeing specs/setups being put on the unusable bench (Along with a ton of other specs and professions that got put through the culling for the past 1+ year). I want Anet to actually make the game fun again with various profession flavors of unique playstyles and specs, specs that work at least decently and you're not funneled into a specific traitline because everything else is garbage because it's been nerfed to such a state to appease a bunch of players that only play the mode(s) for reward incentives. Also people trying to treat this game's balance like a MOBA without the MOBA design, schedule, or resources to do so. 


Ofc you'd think I'm trolling or so far to try and say I'm dense, not seeing the picture when really your shortsightedness is on full display here.  You're not seeing the picture as a whole, you're just looking at what's encompassing in your immediate narrow view. I'd say it's not good to be bootyhurt so just weather out the storm for now ,until whenever they patch, they might just fix something well enough.  But yes a normal day on these forums is right.👌  
 

"when really it's your own personal issue for how poison functions"

 

It's really a personal issue to think that I have to bring cleanse utility exclusively if my healing skill doesn't have built in clears for one of the most easily accessed condition. It is in no way fundamentally wrong that one past existing function was removed from the game to where it actually help alleviating the weakness of those healing skills with an investment.

[Kuma.1503]

On 8/7/2021 at 4:22 PM, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

Well, he's not wrong to be honest. I'm impartial to this discussion, but i want to shed some light on this particular thing here...that there are many relations you can make in the game that at first seem incomparable, but after analyzing deep enough you can make a relation.

 

Aegis and Protection can both be thought of as "preventative healing" where by preventing or reducing damage you would have taken, is essentially the same as healing that amount. I use this technique a lot to evaluate a variety of skills in terms of just pure healing.

 

Likewise, poison can be thought of in a similar way. It's not an easy relation to break down, but you can follow it by doing what I like to call "exchanges" where opponents simply use skills in discrete intervals. The outcome of that exchange is gonna just be a number, which you can then use to determine some kind of information. 

 

Here's an example of an exchange.

 

Player A dealt 5000 damage to Player B

Player B healed for 3000.

 

The result of that exchange would be 2000 damage. If player B has 20,000 Health, and each interval is 1 second, then Player B dies in 10 second.

 

If player B is effected by Poison, than you could show the exchange in two ways :

 

 

Player A deals 5000 damage to Player B

Player B heals for 3000 - 1000.

 

or

 

Player A deals 5000+1000 damage to Player B

Player B heals for 3000.

 

The 2nd relation is not as obvious as the first relation...but they are both equivalent and therefor relatable. The result of both exchanges is Player B takes 3000 damage. If Player B has 20,000 Health and each interval is 1 second, then player B dies in 6.6 seconds. 

 

Again since the two are actually equal, the relation is completely valid. The same relation can be made with vulnerability*...chill...weakness...there's actually tons of things you can compare when you think about it in terms of discrete intervals. If you were to take it within a continuum limit, it can be though of as a precise relation. The technique doesn't work for all things like stability or Immobilize...but in theory, a supercomputer can do it and essentially squash the game into strictly a single numerical relation.

 

Edit: *About Vulnerability specifically. Vulnerability is nested within a damage equation, which has to be taken into consideration when you make an exchange like this. A player with 25 stacks of vulnerability, doesn't actually take 25% more global damage...they take damage in accordance with the damage equation...which, in theory you can calculate and place into an exchange too (because all it is, is just a math problem)...it's just far more complicated in practice, than a simple + or - operation like above. 

 

I've never thought about it this way. This is a useful way to think about things. Should be especially helpful when it comes to theorycraft. 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Yes, with resistance changes you actually have to play the game now.  

[Lucentfir.7430]

48 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

"when really it's your own personal issue for how poison functions"

 

It's really a personal issue to think that I have to bring cleanse utility exclusively if my healing skill doesn't have built in clears for one of the most easily accessed condition. It is in no way fundamentally wrong that one past existing function was removed from the game to where it actually help alleviating the weakness of those healing skills with an investment.

Yes it's a personal player issue, cleanse it if it's that big of an impact on you, or don't and wait for it to drop off it's a choice, and that's the counterplay. Complaining and moaning,  It's a -33% healing debuff, I'd understand if it was completely obliterating your healing with like 66%-100% but it's only mitigating it by 1/3rd and you're still getting value out of healing be it at reduced effectiveness. if it's about Revenant though in general, I'm sorry but that's just one of the glaring  weaknesses of the class right at this moment because of the resistance changes, which did not take revenant into account with that. What's fundamentally wrong is pushing large sweeping changes and not addressing specific classes that would be  negatively affected  by the sweeping change so that falls on Anet incompetence . 

Edited August 10, 2021 by Lucentfir.7430