Make Resistance affect Poison modifiers and Revert Resistance durations

[Lazze.9870]

11 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

You don't pick up on people statement that doesn't have anything to with yours just to twist them like that, implying I ignored you and what you said at all, I don't have to reply for you to know that you are right.

 

I still doubt on it regardless,

 

Meh. You brush it off and point at ranger's good bleeding capabilities. That isn't the point. That isn't an argument against poison being a significant part of ranger's damage on condi builds.

 

Any regular condi ranger build can easily put 12 poison stacks on you in a couple of seconds. That's not insignificant damage, and that's not counting sources like Poison Trap or Vulture Stance. There is a reason "poisonbeast" builds have been floating around both in wvw, but also in pvp to an extent. The problem for such builds is that Poison Master competes with Wilderness Knowledge. You often want the latter, which also makes Sharpening Stone a decent alternative for heavy bleed builds, while the Hidden Barbs trait have no competition. The heavy bleed builds slot perfectly into the everlasting Survival skill ranger meta, the poison focused builds don't. So it naturally gets demoted to your second source of damage, with bleeding obviously taking the centre stage.

 

Ranger is built for having poison as a good source of damage in its condition builds. And that's what it currently is, even in builds where it's not a focus. Removing the damage component from Poison would require a rework of several ranger skills + Poison Master, obviously. It would also kill off any condition build variety ranger has, except from the question of "traps or not", if that's anything you care about. And not replacing that damage with something else would be very noticeable, varying from build to build.

 

 

[Leonidrex.5649]

2 hours ago, Lazze.9870 said:

 

Meh. You brush it off and point at ranger's good bleeding capabilities. That isn't the point. That isn't an argument against poison being a significant part of ranger's damage on condi builds.

 

Any regular condi ranger build can easily put 12 poison stacks on you in a couple of seconds. That's not insignificant damage, and that's not counting sources like Poison Trap or Vulture Stance. There is a reason "poisonbeast" builds have been floating around both in wvw, but also in pvp to an extent. The problem for such builds is that Poison Master competes with Wilderness Knowledge. You often want the latter, which also makes Sharpening Stone a decent alternative for heavy bleed builds, while the Hidden Barbs trait have no competition. The heavy bleed builds slot perfectly into the everlasting Survival skill ranger meta, the poison focused builds don't. So it naturally gets demoted to your second source of damage, with bleeding obviously taking the centre stage.

 

Ranger is built for having poison as a good source of damage in its condition builds. And that's what it currently is, even in builds where it's not a focus. Removing the damage component from Poison would require a rework of several ranger skills + Poison Master, obviously. It would also kill off any condition build variety ranger has, except from the question of "traps or not", if that's anything you care about. And not replacing that damage with something else would be very noticeable, varying from build to build.

 

 

Currently im playing 100% bleed oriented condi build, poison deals more or less 25%-30% of my damage.
With how kittening bad conditions are in general, the build can not survive 25% damage nerf.
But hey, rev main sometimes loses 33% of his overpowered healing so I guess we deserve the gutting right?
What a logic.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

why buff sustain right now?

[Shao.7236]

14 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

Currently im playing 100% bleed oriented condi build, poison deals more or less 25%-30% of my damage.
With how kittening bad conditions are in general, the build can not survive 25% damage nerf.
But hey, rev main sometimes loses 33% of his overpowered healing so I guess we deserve the gutting right?
What a logic.

It's funny how you're talking about things that are completely irrelevant in attempt to capitalize on the topic alongside it.

 

Empowering Misery is really really really really really really really really really really really really overpowered, how about Breakrazor Bastion? That is really really really really really really really really really really really really overpowered too.

 

Look at me, I'm gonna use Pain Absorption to "nullify" poison modifiers on Infuse Light but also have Resolution to remove 33% of the damage I could heal from, because according to you that makes sense. Do I wish to have potentially all the condition damage on my team that I may be impossible to clear? Why yes, every Revenant is Herald, fax. Honestly it's like you'd be ready to tell me that it's OP how old Resistance denied damage and modifiers to which I can have Infuse Light together at the same time, not apart of each other. Besides it's not like I've said several times until it was too late that Infuse Light was in dire need of nerfing.

 

It seriously is hilarious how anytime there's an attempt put the nail on the head, there's backward reasoning that make no sense factually even if you would try your best to prove otherwise.

 

Anything that appears as counter play seen on the forum as of late is non sense, let's get down right to spamming as further we go.

5 hours ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

why buff sustain right now?

 

Explain to me how that is a problem to allow all healing skills in the game to keep a relevant state at the cost of something else.

Edited August 11, 2021 by Shao.7236

[Shao.7236]

16 hours ago, Lazze.9870 said:

 

Meh. You brush it off and point at ranger's good bleeding capabilities. That isn't the point. That isn't an argument against poison being a significant part of ranger's damage on condi builds.

 

Any regular condi ranger build can easily put 12 poison stacks on you in a couple of seconds. That's not insignificant damage, and that's not counting sources like Poison Trap or Vulture Stance. There is a reason "poisonbeast" builds have been floating around both in wvw, but also in pvp to an extent. The problem for such builds is that Poison Master competes with Wilderness Knowledge. You often want the latter, which also makes Sharpening Stone a decent alternative for heavy bleed builds, while the Hidden Barbs trait have no competition. The heavy bleed builds slot perfectly into the everlasting Survival skill ranger meta, the poison focused builds don't. So it naturally gets demoted to your second source of damage, with bleeding obviously taking the centre stage.

 

Ranger is built for having poison as a good source of damage in its condition builds. And that's what it currently is, even in builds where it's not a focus. Removing the damage component from Poison would require a rework of several ranger skills + Poison Master, obviously. It would also kill off any condition build variety ranger has, except from the question of "traps or not", if that's anything you care about. And not replacing that damage with something else would be very noticeable, varying from build to build.

 

 

Hey, more reasons to have Poison modifiers affected by the mere seconds of Resistance that are available for anyone. Not only you deny any passive healing via several skills by just playing, but they only have one possible major source of recovery since Resistance duration is so low and typically require slotting!

[Caitir.6947]

Infuse Light did need nerfs. Old Resistance also should not have worked the way it did it in the first place, but I don't think it's just because of Condi Herald that I think that. 

Anyway I'm not quite sure how this devolved into being an argument almost entirely around Condi Herald, but I don't immediately hate the idea of Resistance also affecting the 33% healing reduction of Poison. My bugbear with the idea isn't that specific proposal, but the current timing. The game is already incredibly bunker-heavy with WvW seeing Trailblazer builds as far as the eye can see as well as builds that sit on loads of sustain options all over the place, to say nothing of zerg boonballing. And PvP is currently going through a period where Guard's strongest build is a shout support bunker and Necros (especially Scourge for this particular point) are extraordinarily difficult to kill while making revives much more easier and safer than they otherwise would be.

Maybe if bunkers were directly hit first (whether by increasing damage in pvp modes, or reducing the effectiveness of bunkers directly) then I'd consider the idea good, but as of right now poison is one of the few ways a condi build can hit a bunker build and make them actually care by hitting their sustain directly (this goes for other condi bunker builds, too, poison allows their sustain to be hit which is important for some of them). This is of particular note since condi builds already aren't terribly meta in PvP and in WvW there's a decent split of power vs condi but it's almost entirely off the back of Trailblazer letting them tank up while doing their damage or they'd probably be in an overall bad state in WvW, too. 

Though in PvP specifically I don't hate the idea since Trailblazer isn't even in the mode. For there, I don't mind Resistance hitting the Poison modifier. Partly because one of the bigger abuse cases for sustain (Necro) can only cleanse Poison, not really spam out Resistance. This would help those that previously relied on Resistance like Herald, while not doing much for Necro. And since Mallyx Herald isn't the most common, or the strongest, I don't mind it in PvP. I'm wary of that coming to WvW, though. 

Edited August 11, 2021 by Caitir.6947

[Leonidrex.5649]

3 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

It's funny how you're talking about things that are completely irrelevant in attempt to capitalize on the topic alongside it.

 

Empowering Misery is really really really really really really really really really really really really overpowered, how about Breakrazor Bastion? That is really really really really really really really really really really really really overpowered too.

 

Look at me, I'm gonna use Pain Absorption to "nullify" poison modifiers on Infuse Light but also have Resolution to remove 33% of the damage I could heal from, because according to you that makes sense. Do I wish to have potentially all the condition damage on my team that I may be impossible to clear? Why yes, every Revenant is Herald, fax. Honestly it's like you'd be ready to tell me that it's OP how old Resistance denied damage and modifiers to which I can have Infuse Light together at the same time, not apart of each other. Besides it's not like I've said several times until it was too late that Infuse Light was in dire need of nerfing.

 

It seriously is hilarious how anytime there's an attempt put the nail on the head, there's backward reasoning that make no sense factually even if you would try your best to prove otherwise.

 

Anything that appears as counter play seen on the forum as of late is non sense, let's get down right to spamming as further we go.

 

Explain to me how that is a problem to allow all healing skills in the game to keep a relevant state at the cost of something else.

what counterplay, you want to be permanently invulerable again, its opposite of counterplay.
nobody spams poison, most playable builds have 1 skill that applies it and thats it, if you have such issues with it then take some effort into avoiding it, instead off gutting it entirely

[Lucentfir.7430]

2 hours ago, Caitir.6947 said:

Infuse Light did need nerfs. Old Resistance also should not have worked the way it did it in the first place, but I don't think it's just because of Condi Herald that I think that. 

Anyway I'm not quite sure how this devolved into being an argument almost entirely around Condi Herald, but I don't immediately hate the idea of Resistance also affecting the 33% healing reduction of Poison. My bugbear with the idea isn't that specific proposal, but the current timing. The game is already incredibly bunker-heavy with WvW seeing Trailblazer builds as far as the eye can see as well as builds that sit on loads of sustain options all over the place, to say nothing of zerg boonballing. And PvP is currently going through a period where Guard's strongest build is a shout support bunker and Necros (especially Scourge for this particular point) are extraordinarily difficult to kill while making revives much more easier and safer than they otherwise would be.

Maybe if bunkers were directly hit first (whether by increasing damage in pvp modes, or reducing the effectiveness of bunkers directly) then I'd consider the idea good, but as of right now poison is one of the few ways a condi build can hit a bunker build and make them actually care by hitting their sustain directly (this goes for other condi bunker builds, too, poison allows their sustain to be hit which is important for some of them). This is of particular note since condi builds already aren't terribly meta in PvP and in WvW there's a decent split of power vs condi but it's almost entirely off the back of Trailblazer letting them tank up while doing their damage or they'd probably be in an overall bad state in WvW, too. 

Though in PvP specifically I don't hate the idea since Trailblazer isn't even in the mode. For there, I don't mind Resistance hitting the Poison modifier. Partly because one of the bigger abuse cases for sustain (Necro) can only cleanse Poison, not really spam out Resistance. This would help those that previously relied on Resistance like Herald, while not doing much for Necro. And since Mallyx Herald isn't the most common, or the strongest, I don't mind it in PvP. I'm wary of that coming to WvW, though. 

The argument that took place isn't if Resistance shouldn't  affect the 33% healing reduction, if it did I doubt this thread would of even been a thing and there'd be no complaints about it either. It's the fact that Anet made the Resistance change with a huge oversight with no considerations how it affects certain classes and specs, and Mallyx rev in particular got canned out of its theme and design use as a result, The way they made resistance function makes it  put conditions in 2 categories, if it does damage, it's a damaging condition, if it doesn't do damage it's not a damage condition, there's no in between category with the way resistance is worded.  Poison is a bundled condition it ticks for lower damage and stacks with intensity with a added healing debuff. So it gets thrown onto the damaging condition category. With the way Anet is and always has been it's too much work for them, or they simply can't do it,  to sit down and actually split the healing debuff and tick damage interaction so only the healing debuff is affected, otherwise it would've been accounted for already. 

Then we have someone piggybacking off the topic on their next big nerf agenda target, to make a silly change to completely drop the ticking damage on poison, because bleed is better anyways lol. So that it works under resistance, and they don't have to worry about a healing debuff, that apparently is so OP in design(1/3rd reduction in healing value) and lacking in counterplay(because obviously condi cleanse isn't)  that just having it on them causes them to lose fights and affects everything they play to the same degree it does with Mallyx Rev. Suggesting a change that doesn't just affect pvp but also PVE and WvW with the same oversight that came with the resistance change since dropping the ticking damage is essentially a mechanical change to the condition, and anet doesn't do mechanical changes to only one game mode. 

As far as Trailblazers goes, the closest Spvp had to that was Mercenary amulet , which was power/condi damage/ toughness/vit.  That got removed a long while back though. Trailblazers is always going to be the defacto stat set to run though on pmuch every condi build in wvw.

Edited August 11, 2021 by Lucentfir.7430

[Spellhunter.9675]

4 hours ago, Lucentfir.7430 said:

healing debuff, that apparently is so OP in design(1/3rd reduction in healing value) and lacking in counterplay(because obviously condi cleanse isn't)

Power damage is so OP in design. You know, it actually kills you. And it's lacking in counterplay (because obviously dodge and block isn't). So I believe Anet must change protection so it makes you completely immune to power damage. 

Edited August 11, 2021 by Spellhunter.9675

[Lucentfir.7430]

2 hours ago, Spellhunter.9675 said:

Power damage is so OP in design. You know, it actually kills you. And it's lacking in counterplay (because obviously dodge and block isn't). So I believe Anet must change protection so it makes you completely immune to power damage. 

Just so we're clear, I'm not the one making claims about OP design, but someone else on this topic is! So yes, protection should make you immune to all power damage obviously. 😆

[Shao.7236]

13 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

what counterplay, you want to be permanently invulerable again, its opposite of counterplay.
nobody spams poison, most playable builds have 1 skill that applies it and thats it, if you have such issues with it then take some effort into avoiding it, instead off gutting it entirely

Prejudice as always on top of claiming the impossible.

 

You show me how I could ever be invulnerable to "everything" if I played Mallyx and Resistance actually did anything.

 

Reminder that even if Resistance affect modifers, it doesn't change anything in the balance because built-in cleanses will always be better. 🙂

 

Most "playable" builds have 3 different sources of poison that are easily accessible.

 

7 hours ago, Spellhunter.9675 said:

Power damage is so OP in design. You know, it actually kills you. And it's lacking in counterplay (because obviously dodge and block isn't). So I believe Anet must change protection so it makes you completely immune to power damage. 

The context was given to you in a wall of text and yet you miss it entirely in an attempt to meme.