Legendary armor is... Locked for some people.

[Obtena.7952]

1 minute ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

The problem is, we don't know the metrics of the actual raid population. We can't go off of perception from seeing forum posts. Perhaps there are a lot more raiders out there than you realize. Maybe they have a raid in the works for the expansion that we don't know about, so we can't even say the lack of a raid in recent times is proof of low participation. Without those important metrics (that only anet has) all we can do is speculate and form opinions based on effectively nothing. However, we CAN form an idea of what they will do based on historic data (aka raids have been out for a long time and so has the armor, yet its still exclusive to raids). I wouldn't expect that to change. I'm sorry though, I know this is hard news for some. Luckily there is a community there to help players through the process.

I don't think that's relevant if we know the metrics ... but to be fair, we do have a good idea of how popular raids are with players in this game based on the history of their development and the current situation. 

 

That being said, the point of discussion here isn't to argue accessibility ... we know everyone can access all the methods available to get leg. armor. The point here is that it's never going to be the interest of a developer to create a situation where they implement something and only a small number of people make any effort to get it, much less care about its existence. 

 

To be fair, if raids were healthy, being continued for development and being released on a regular schedule, I would probably be on your side of the discussion here because it's supported content, shows commitment from Anet's part and demonstrates player engagement ... but that's not the case. When leg. armor was released, the profile of the game was much different than it is now ... so the current situation just makes no sense to me . 

 

 

[Zalavaaris.5329]

4 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I don't think that's relevant if we know the metrics ... but to be fair, we do have a good idea of how popular raids are with players in this game based on the history of their development and the current situation. 

 

That being said, the point of discussion here isn't to argue accessibility ... we know everyone can access all the methods available to get leg. armor. The point here is that it's never going to be the interest of a developer to create a situation where they implement something and only a small number of people make any effort to get it, much less care about its existence. 

 

To be fair, if raids were healthy, being continued for development and being released on a regular schedule, I would probably be on your side of the discussion here because it's supported content, shows commitment from Anet's part and demonstrates player engagement ... but that's not the case. When leg. armor was released, the profile of the game was much different than it is now ... so the current situation just makes no sense to me . 

 

 

Like I said though, they may have a raid in development. So we can't assume they've retired the content. And a lot of games make items that are amazing that only a small percentage of players ever see. For example, in WoW the gladiator mounts are VERY exclusive and amazingly designed. I run around and see legendary armor everywhere I go. It isn't a super exclusive rare sighting. 

Edited August 8, 2021 by Zalavaaris.5329

[Obtena.7952]

3 minutes ago, Aeis.8519 said:

In some instances, back in the day, crafting precursors were about on par with buying it on the trading post if not money saved.  This is just from my research and looking at them.  From what it looks like now, though, some precursors took  major dips as while  ascended materials to make them spiked up in price so it's not really worth crafting them now.  That's just how the market be, to be honest.  Also, I'm curious, why shouldn't legendary armor that  doesn't involve raids have the same or similar value in time investment and effort as the current legendary armor?  For what I know, legendary items are the ultimate gear.  You make one and now you have that item for that slot forever across all characters.  That sounds like it should be expensive and take effort.

Sure, as expected, we got precursor price equalization on the market because the cost to craft the same precursor was known by it's mat costs. Agreed. 

 

If leg. armor should or shouldn't have the same or similar value in time investment and effort as the current legendary armor ... I don't have an answer for ... I'm just saying I wouldn't expect a theoretically new PVE path to 'cost' less than the current ways to get it. The problem is actually determining what that cost is ... because some of the mats aren't purchasable on the TP. That's going to be the argument of people who complain that theoretical new PVE method is 'cheaper' than established ways ... but that didn't stop Anet for doing the EXACTLY the same thing for implementing crafted precursors. 

 

TLDR: Anet COULD implement another reasonably 'costed' leg. armor approach in PVE that engages significantly more players. 

[Obtena.7952]

6 minutes ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

Like I said though, they may have a raid in development. So we can't assume they've retired the content. 

That's where we are going to differ on opinion here. There is lots of evidence to suggest it's not just gone ... but it's not coming back either. 

 

If raids come back, it means I'm wrong about player engagement. That's the whole foundation for my argument to consider alternate PVE paths. 

[Zalavaaris.5329]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

That's where we are going to differ on opinion here. There is lots of evidence to suggest it's not just gone ... but it's not coming back either. 

 

If raids come back, it means I'm wrong about player engagement. That's the whole foundation for my argument to consider alternate PVE paths. 

And I don't believe they are gone. I guess we will agree to disagree. 

[Obtena.7952]

1 minute ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

And I don't believe they are gone. I guess we will agree to disagree. 

Let's shake hands on it then. 

 

but just out of curiosity ... how long would the 'raid dry spell' have to be to convince you I'm right? 😉

Edited August 8, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Zalavaaris.5329]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Let's shake hands on it then. 

 

but just out of curiosity ... how long would the 'raid dry spell' have to be to convince you I'm right? 😉

Well considering there is a new expansion coming out I would say we need some more time. 2020 was a tough year especially for content development for ANY game. WoW went through a big drought as well. I think the circumstances mean they focused on the new expansion and more broadly consumed content (I'm not going to pretend the majority of people raid). But like I said, we just don't know what they have planned. Maybe I'm wrong and they will add envoy armor to a birthday box, who knows lol I won't pretend I know any more than anyone else here.

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Aeis.8519 said:

I'll go digging through the thread again, then.  Also nice of you to edit your post with that preface.  So disingenuous of you.  I don't believe I'll engage with you from now on.
 

I don't understand what you mean about "disingenious edits". I often edit my posts if after i press send i decide i still had something to add (or am making some grammar/spelling corrections, which happens often as well). I made my edit well before anyone else posted after me anyway.

 

If you really want my views on legendary armor acquisition, i will point you to my most recent post about it:

Those are ideas that i've had and keep reposting for years, btw, It's not the first time i mentioned them. Notice, though, that the only person on the other side that even engaged with it is the very same person that in this thread admits that no form of concessions are on the menu. And it was still the best response i've got in years (because the usual response is to ignore those suggestions completely and either pretend there was no post, or nitpick on something tangential that was mentioned alongside it).

 

Whis is the reason why i rarely bother to keep repeating it - the other side is simply not interested. The only suggestions they are looking at and responding to are those they can try to present in bad light.

 

Edited August 8, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Aeis.8519]

11 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's where we are going to differ on opinion here. There is lots of evidence to suggest it's not just gone ... but it's not coming back either. 

 

If raids come back, it means I'm wrong about player engagement. That's the whole foundation for my argument to consider alternate PVE paths. 

I believe raids are being replaced by Strikes.  I've been in one raid from start to finish.  They're these big set pieces, maps and such, that have events and bosses.  They're a lot like dungeons in that regard only requiring twice as many players and actively being re-balanced with the current meta in mind while dungeons are set back to game balance of 2015.  Strikes and their proposed challenge modes look substantially easier to produce because they're making story content, then extracting the bosses from said story content to insert them into a single encounter with a challenge mode for the challenge savvy.  Will we see more raids?  Time will tell, honestly.  What's certain is the fact that we will be seeing further development of 10 man content aimed at people itching for raid-level organization just in a smaller scale with only one encounter per strike.  That is, if ANet lives up to the hype and delivers on the content.  I don't want another shiverpeak's pass strike.  I was falling asleep during that one.

[Vayne.8563]

11 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

You want the skin, you do the content.

Repeat after me.

If you want the skin, you do the content.

Once more.

If you want the skin, you do the content.

Why is this hard for you to understand?  Would you complain if there was new strike armor that required you to do the new CMs, had as much effort as raids, but also animated?  Strikes are literally raids with one boss/encounter.  This singular reward put behind raids isn't disenfranchising the casuals.  That is a colossal joke and not even a good one.  You're not casual if you do T4s regularly.  Casuals are the people who don't bother with instanced content at all outside of story.  They come around for maybe an hour a day to chill out and relax.  These people wouldn't have a use for legendary armor.  I'm pretty sure - actually, no, I know for a fact that if a casual had full legendary armor, nothing about their playstyle, quality of life, etc, would change.

  

Because you're inconsistent and hold onto this idea that GW2 raids are the same as WoW raids which is hilarious.  You don't like that raids are instanced, yet play instanced content.

I've already said my piece to you.  If you want the rewards, do the content.  Any new legendary-like armor that comes out won't be the Envoy armor you covet so much that it hurt you personally when ANet added them to raids.  Cya.

Repeat after me. Before raids, every single skin was accessible to me. The game changed in a way I didn't like. It changed in the way a LOT of people didn't like. For some reason raiders think this is good for the game. Hint: It's not.

The skin is available for that content only, specifically based on an arbitrary decision by Anet. Raiders didn't put it there. Anet did. 

Now, in the beginning the only way to get dungeon armor was to do dungeons. There was no other way.  Do you know what happened? PvP people complained they didn't want to do PvE to get Dungeon armor. It wasn't fair. And Anet relented and put dungeon reward tracks in both PvP and WvW.  See they didn't do the content and get the skin. They complained and got the game changed, so a precedent does exist.

You do the content, you get the skin, unless Anet changes the game. Anet has changed the game before. Anet can change the game again. There's nothing stopping armor that animates from getting into the game itself, in another form, or in an ascended form. And you saying so doesn't make it true.

If what you say is true, I wouldn't be able to PvP today to get dungeon armor. So repeating something over and over again to try to make it true...doesn't work.

[Vayne.8563]

11 hours ago, Aeis.8519 said:

I'm really confused, here.  Most, if not all MMOs before WoW were just fine being Niche  little things and still have plenty of players be it on private servers or officially hosted.  WoW came along to generalize the experience, water it down and appeal to a broader audience.  Back then, a lot of people wanted to fight big bosses.  Atually, I was one of them too, I'll admit.  But when it comes to raids and that, ESO is doing fine releasing content for raiders (In there, they're called Trials) and dungeons, along with veteran modes which increase the difficulty with new mechanics or making existing ones more punishing if failed.  Old School Runescape has two raids that can be done with as few as one player or up to one hundred I believe.  I think the second has a limit, but I've never made it that far in that game.  Then lastly, Final Fantasy 14 regularly updates its instanced PvE content as well.  If raids were really this killer you're speaking of, there wouldn't be that many examples off the top of my head that I could list too  prove you wrong.

It doesn't matter if they were fine being niche. I'm in publishing and I can tell you what happens to be book that gets popular. Everyone tries to copy it to cash in on that money.

At a scifi convention, a new writer asked a top editor from Ace books (a scifi publisher) what was the best thing they could do to get published. She said, find something that sells and write something just like it. That was her answer. I'm not talking about what companies are happy with what. I'm talking about what happens creatively to a company when one company breaks out. Do you think they term WoW-clone came from nowhere?  It didn't.  

Investors that back MMOs because they're very expensive to make, looked for something so they could jump on the gravy train. That's why there was so many WoW clones. There was WoW and a bunch of other WoWs. If you don't believe it, you didn't play the same MMOs I did, for years after WoW got successful.

 

The fact that WoW had a formula that got copied meant so many games had people competing in the open world for nodes. I means when Archeage came out, people were stuck on servers in long queues because that's how the WoW server architecture works. If your server was full, your server was full.  Guild Wars 2 doesn't work that way but most MMOs do because they're copying WoW. The overflow system that was here at launch never put me in a queue and I could play until my home server was open. But other companies don't use that tech. They use the same system WOW did, because you look at the company making the money and you copy it. That's not WoW's fault. That's the fault of the suits. But they want to make money and that's how they do it.

Take a look at fantasy for years now and you'll see the same looking covers on 90% of the books. That's no accident.

[Vayne.8563]

1 hour ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

Like I said though, they may have a raid in development. So we can't assume they've retired the content. And a lot of games make items that are amazing that only a small percentage of players ever see. For example, in WoW the gladiator mounts are VERY exclusive and amazingly designed. I run around and see legendary armor everywhere I go. It isn't a super exclusive rare sighting. 

Did you miss the dev quote where it was said by a dev that not enough people were reading to support raids and that strikes were being introduced as a way to get more people to try raids. That with the current population they couldn't keep supporting them?

[Zalavaaris.5329]

2 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Did you miss the dev quote where it was said by a dev that not enough people were reading to support raids and that strikes were being introduced as a way to get more people to try raids. That with the current population they couldn't keep supporting them?

So they want people to do strikes as a way to get them into raids? That tells me they WANT people raiding. Legendary armor seems like a good incentive for that. I'm sure they feel the same way.

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

So they want people to do strikes as a way to get them into raids? That tells me they WANT people raiding. Legendary armor seems like a good incentive for that. I'm sure they feel the same way.

Well, let's have no doubt ... of course Anet WANTS people do to whatever content they put in the game ... but that doesn't mean they will do it, EVEN if they put the juicy carrot in there. That's the problem. There is SOMETHING about the raids that make them unappealing to enough players to make it worth Anet's time to make them. Maybe leg. armor seems like a good incentive there ... but it's not. 

[Vayne.8563]

5 minutes ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

So they want people to do strikes as a way to get them into raids? That tells me they WANT people raiding. Legendary armor seems like a good incentive for that. I'm sure they feel the same way.

Right, they want it because they've invested in it. You don't abandon an investment because it's not working. You try to save it first. But they have to try to save it and that should be concerning to raiders.   It's not like they said this stuff is popular and everyone is playing it. They said not enough people are playing it. 

 

The theory that Anet has is that there was no ramp up to raids. That people would play it if there was a ramp up. And that may be true for some people. But i don't need a ramp up to raids. I could play raids if I found them enjoyable. I don't. So I don't play them, ramp or no ramp.

I'll even do the occasional strike mission, but I won't generally do a raid. My guess is strikes won't encourage enough people to raid to allow Anet to continue production of raids.

 

We get new living stories every couple of months. How long has it been since your last raid.  And I'm not trying to be a kitten here. I don't feel good that you guys got some raids and then had them taken away from you, or at least had no more added. That's not what I'm about, if that's what you're thinking. It's not.

 

But when a dev says well, we can't support this content due to lack of support, that says something. You can be optimistic and say that they want to keep making more raids, but realistically it's saying this content isn't popular with the population at lodge.

[Zalavaaris.5329]

54 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, let's have no doubt ... of course Anet WANTS people do to whatever content they put in the game ... but that doesn't mean they will do it, EVEN if they put the juicy carrot in there. That's the problem. There is SOMETHING about the raids that make them unappealing to enough players to make it worth Anet's time to make them. Maybe leg. armor seems like a good incentive there ... but it's not. 

It obviously is for some. I see people all the time who are raiding in order to get their armor. Saying its not a good enough incentive isn't based on any known metrics. It's all personal perception based on a self supported narrative. But we will see I guess.

[Obtena.7952]

4 minutes ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

It obviously is for some. I see people all the time who are raiding in order to get their armor. Saying its not a good enough incentive isn't based on any known metrics. It's all personal perception based on a self supported narrative. But we will see I guess.

Well, it's not just a personal perception based on a self-supported narrative because the fraction of people doing raids is already acknowledged by Anet themselves to be too low to continue making raids. Also, the fraction of people doing raids just to get armor can't be more than the people who do raids. 

 

In otherwords, even if 100% of the people doing raids are there for armor ... it's still not enough to sustain raid development, according to Anet. 

Edited August 9, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Infusion.7149]

1 hour ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Repeat after me. Before raids, every single skin was accessible to me. The game changed in a way I didn't like. It changed in the way a LOT of people didn't like. For some reason raiders think this is good for the game. Hint: It's not.

The skin is available for that content only, specifically based on an arbitrary decision by Anet. Raiders didn't put it there. Anet did. 

Now, in the beginning the only way to get dungeon armor was to do dungeons. There was no other way.  Do you know what happened? PvP people complained they didn't want to do PvE to get Dungeon armor. It wasn't fair. And Anet relented and put dungeon reward tracks in both PvP and WvW.  See they didn't do the content and get the skin. They complained and got the game changed, so a precedent does exist.

You do the content, you get the skin, unless Anet changes the game. Anet has changed the game before. Anet can change the game again. There's nothing stopping armor that animates from getting into the game itself, in another form, or in an ascended form. And you saying so doesn't make it true.

If what you say is true, I wouldn't be able to PvP today to get dungeon armor. So repeating something over and over again to try to make it true...doesn't work.

No it wasn't. You can't get glorious armor from PVE nor can you get Ascension or Balthazar back item skin among other things. That doesn't even include things added later such as Warlord's armor, Mistforged Obsidian weapons, Mist Lord weapons, etc.

People are so invested in pushing for new openworld acquisition methods in existing maps for legendary armor but it is FAR more likely that they will be a EOD strike reward in some fashion if deemed another set is worthwhile and is added. Realistically another 22 week time-gate would be in place. There is zero ROI if it is added to core tyria (includes LS2) , HOT (includes LS3),  or POF (includes LS4, IBS) so you can forget about that ever realistically happening. It has been stated that EOD mobs will upscale based on players and that the new maps have replay value so there's already hints of things being linked to legendaries, whether it is the Aurene styled weapons , amulet, or otherwise.
 

3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

This. The only reason why more PvE players do not go to WvW for the armor is because it is a completely different playstyle. Not because it is hard. Frankly, even the least effort-requiring suggestions made for PvE (well, those seriously made, not the examples made by the other side to try to discredit the idea) are not easier that WvW. For this, it would have to be either obtained through login rewards, or flat out given to players for asking - which is not something anyone seriously suggested.

Tell us how you really feel. It was already obvious from previous threads how absurdly easy you would want acquisition methods to be.

Also because every legendary weapon needs some WvW for gift of battle that argument is so weak it's incredible.
 

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

1 hour ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Repeat after me. Before raids, every single skin was accessible to me. The game changed in a way I didn't like. It changed in the way a LOT of people didn't like. For some reason raiders think this is good for the game. Hint: It's not.

The skin is available for that content only, specifically based on an arbitrary decision by Anet. Raiders didn't put it there. Anet did. 

Now, in the beginning the only way to get dungeon armor was to do dungeons. There was no other way.  Do you know what happened? PvP people complained they didn't want to do PvE to get Dungeon armor. It wasn't fair. And Anet relented and put dungeon reward tracks in both PvP and WvW.  See they didn't do the content and get the skin. They complained and got the game changed, so a precedent does exist.

You do the content, you get the skin, unless Anet changes the game. Anet has changed the game before. Anet can change the game again. There's nothing stopping armor that animates from getting into the game itself, in another form, or in an ascended form. And you saying so doesn't make it true.

If what you say is true, I wouldn't be able to PvP today to get dungeon armor. So repeating something over and over again to try to make it true...doesn't work.

Nope, every single skin is still accessible to you.  This limitation you have is personal.

[Vayne.8563]

48 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

No it wasn't. You can't get glorious armor from PVE nor can you get Ascension or Balthazar back item skin among other things. That doesn't even include things added later such as Warlord's armor, Mistforged Obsidian weapons, Mist Lord weapons, etc.

People are so invested in pushing for new openworld acquisition methods in existing maps for legendary armor but it is FAR more likely that they will be a EOD strike reward in some fashion if deemed another set is worthwhile and is added. Realistically another 22 week time-gate would be in place. There is zero ROI if it is added to core tyria (includes LS2) , HOT (includes LS3),  or POF (includes LS4, IBS) so you can forget about that ever realistically happening. It has been stated that EOD mobs will upscale based on players and that the new maps have replay value so there's already hints of things being linked to legendaries, whether it is the Aurene styled weapons , amulet, or otherwise.
 

Tell us how you really feel. It was already obvious from previous threads how absurdly easy you would want acquisition methods to be.

Also because every legendary weapon needs some WvW for gift of battle that argument is so weak it's incredible.
 

Every skin was available to me, personally. I do PvP. I don't raid. Ergo every skin was available to me. It may not have been available to you. That's a different statement.

[Vayne.8563]

42 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Nope, every single skin is still accessible to you.  This limitation you have is personal.

 Nope. the game changed to add something I don't like. I have every right to say I don't like it.  Not even sure what this discussion is about. Are you suggesting the forums aren't at least partly about stating our preferences?

[Infusion.7149]

2 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Every skin was available to me, personally. I do PvP. I don't raid. Ergo every skin was available to me. It may not have been available to you. That's a different statement.

That's funny since I play all modes including PvE (raid is PVE btw no matter how much you want to debate it).

Edited August 9, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Vayne.8563]

Just now, Infusion.7149 said:

That's funny since I play all modes including PvE (raid is PVE btw).

Sure. But raids are a seperate mode from "standard" PvE. For example, you can't rez a dead person in a raid, but you can rez a dead person anywhere else. Different rules make a different mode.  PvE just means player vs environment. I do dungeons and fractals and I can rez people in both. Not in a raid. A person is dead everyone has to die.

[Infusion.7149]

5 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Sure. But raids are a seperate mode from "standard" PvE. For example, you can't rez a dead person in a raid, but you can rez a dead person anywhere else. Different rules make a different mode.  PvE just means player vs environment. I do dungeons and fractals and I can rez people in both. Not in a raid. A person is dead everyone has to die.

The game is skill split between PVE , PVP, and WVW. Templates are split between PVE, PVP, and WVW.

Raids being "non standard PVE" is an artificial construct made by players like you. Fractals are just as much instanced PVE and so are dungeons and strikes. Why are people not complaining about ad infinitum, if anything it is more gated by AR (an actual hard gate unless you get someone to open scale 95) than raids ever are/were or will be.

P.S. also if you do PVP you basically should have gotten legendary armor from there instead of complaining and waiting on Arenanet to make a new avenue for an existing mode because it may never happen

Edited August 9, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Zalavaaris.5329]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, it's not just a personal perception based on a self-supported narrative because the fraction of people doing raids is already acknowledged by Anet themselves to be too low to continue making raids. Also, the fraction of people doing raids just to get armor can't be more than the people who do raids. 

 

In otherwords, even if 100% of the people doing raids are there for armor ... it's still not enough to sustain raid development, according to Anet. 

Please give me some sources for that. I keep hearing that but have never seen it. I'm not saying you're wrong or lying but some proof for my own education would be appreciated.