Legendary armor is... Locked for some people.

[Vayne.8563]

30 minutes ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

So go raid or stop whining.

 

I think the fact that the envoy armor has been out for 4 years now tells me something..... what's that tell you? Anet agree with us or you'd be able to be fully decked out in legendary envoy armor while you feed bunnies or pick flowers or whatever it is you do in the game. 

The fact that they haven't made a new raid in, what almost two years now, tells us something too. Raids have failed in this game. Maybe they simply haven't got to it because you know they're working on a living story, an expansion, legendary armory.  Anet taking a long time to solve a problem might simply mean Anet is taking a long time to solve a problem. You don't really know and neither do I.

Edited August 8, 2021 by Vayne.8563

[Vayne.8563]

24 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Aww, you've done a  raid!  Congratulations, you're now a raider.

I've done more than one mate. I have something like 4 raid boss kills. That's how I know I don't like them. 

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

10 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I'm acting like I'm stating an opinion of what I believe. Nothing more nothing left. No amount of hyperbole is going to change what I'm stating. How exactly is stating an opinion abnormal for a forum. You just disagree with that opinion so strongly you're putting more emphasis on it than I'm giving. I'm not out there every single day railing against raids, so much as stating an opinion in a thread about legendary armor being locked behind them.  Don't make more of it than it is.

 

As for what is bad for the game or not, I don't really think you get to decide. Nor do I.  This game has always had a large percentage of players who aren't aware of mechanics, but I'm not one of them. I do T4 fractals. I play WvW.  I PvP.  There are some mechanics I may not be aware of because there are raid bosses I haven't fought, but in the content I do, I assure you I'm aware of mechanics. Doesn't mean I have to like raids.

There's a middle ground between raiders and people who just play the game and are still aware of mechanics. You don't need to be a raider to be aware of mechanics. 

You came to this thread precisely because you don't like raids so you could spout your opinion.  You're already very biased against raids so of course you'd want any other method to acquire legendary armor.  Unfortunately there's already a method to do so.  Two, in fact, that don't require raids.  And you already have stated that you WvW and PvP, so there's your route.

  

8 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

The fact that they haven't made a new raid in, what almost two years now, tells us something too. Raids have failed in this game. Maybe they simply haven't got to it because you know they're working on a living story, an expansion, legendary armory.  Anet taking a long time to solve a problem might simply mean Anet is taking a long time to solve a problem. You don't really know and neither do I.

Like dungeons had?  I think we're looking into this too much.

Remember when Wing 3 was released and minis along with other raid-themed skins made it into the gemstore?  The excuse is that they were developing too many rewards for the game mode.  The problems likely lie with the upper management trying to monetize raids rather than giving raids good rewards.  The amount of new skins required per release was unsustainable for the investors so raids were put on the shelf.  Strikes have no such need.  It's one boss, there can be two, maybe three skins for that boss rather than several and all the rewards are centralized.

Edited August 8, 2021 by Sir Alymer.3406

[Vayne.8563]

13 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

You came to this thread precisely because you don't like raids so you could spout your opinion.  You're already very biased against raids so of course you'd want any other method to acquire legendary armor.  Unfortunately there's already a method to do so.  Two, in fact, that don't require raids.  And you already have stated that you WvW and PvP, so there's your route.

  

Like dungeons had?  I think we're looking into this too much.

Remember when Wing 3 was released and minis along with other raid-themed skins made it into the gemstore?  The excuse is that they were developing too many rewards for the game mode.  The problems likely lie with the upper management trying to monetize raids rather than giving raids good rewards.  The amount of new skins required per release was unsustainable for the investors so raids were put on the shelf.  Strikes have no such need.  It's one boss, there can be two, maybe three skins for that boss rather than several and all the rewards are centralized.

Having an opinion about raids isn't being biased against them, any more than liking them is being biased toward them.  Not liking coffee doesn't make you biased against coffee. It just means you have an opinion.

 

This is the definition of bias:

 

inclination or prejudice for or against one person or group, especially in a way considered to be unfair.

 

In what way is having an opinion about raids unfair?

Edited August 8, 2021 by Vayne.8563

[Vayne.8563]

14 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

You came to this thread precisely because you don't like raids so you could spout your opinion.  You're already very biased against raids so of course you'd want any other method to acquire legendary armor.  Unfortunately there's already a method to do so.  Two, in fact, that don't require raids.  And you already have stated that you WvW and PvP, so there's your route.

  

Like dungeons had?  I think we're looking into this too much.

Remember when Wing 3 was released and minis along with other raid-themed skins made it into the gemstore?  The excuse is that they were developing too many rewards for the game mode.  The problems likely lie with the upper management trying to monetize raids rather than giving raids good rewards.  The amount of new skins required per release was unsustainable for the investors so raids were put on the shelf.  Strikes have no such need.  It's one boss, there can be two, maybe three skins for that boss rather than several and all the rewards are centralized.

People don't do raids because people don't like raids. If people liked raids they'd do them.  Of course, some people do like raids, just not most people. People do them for rewards because they have to sometimes, but that doesn't mean they like them. I have a guld full of people who PvPed for the legendary back piece even though they don't like PvP.  

If people liked raids they'd do them. If everyone did them, Anet would make more of them. It's logical. Raiders love raids so they don't really understand why others don't.  It's the same with anything.

[Teratus.2859]

I dunno if they should implement a new easy to obtain PvE leggy armour set but the only one currently being locked behind raids is a bit of a problem, especially now with raids seemingly being in decline and strikes being the future focus for that harder type of content.

My first choice I guess would be to make it so that the PvE leggy armour could be obtained through strikes as well.. that would probably make the most sense to me.

The other option would be to finally add the much requested easy mode for raiding so that they are not so exclusionary for people but there's no way to do this without some kind of backlash.
Still they're focusing on multi tier difficulty for strikes now so clearly they have listened and recognised that this is what a lot of players want in this kind of content and need these days in order to even get interested in trying it again.
So perhaps easy raids are not completely off the table.. but hell, they could easily repurpose raid bosses as strike bosses (or at least repurpose their mechanics) with different difficulty tiers anyway and use that as a means of teaching/training new players for raiding.
Even though it wouldn't be "easy mode raids" so to speak it would still be exactly what a lot of us have wanted from an easy mode raids anyway so that would still be a win as far as I am concerned if it were implemented.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

1 hour ago, Teratus.2859 said:

I dunno if they should implement a new easy to obtain PvE leggy armour set but the only one currently being locked behind raids is a bit of a problem, especially now with raids seemingly being in decline and strikes being the future focus for that harder type of content.

My first choice I guess would be to make it so that the PvE leggy armour could be obtained through strikes as well.. that would probably make the most sense to me.

The other option would be to finally add the much requested easy mode for raiding so that they are not so exclusionary for people but there's no way to do this without some kind of backlash.
Still they're focusing on multi tier difficulty for strikes now so clearly they have listened and recognised that this is what a lot of players want in this kind of content and need these days in order to even get interested in trying it again.
So perhaps easy raids are not completely off the table.. but hell, they could easily repurpose raid bosses as strike bosses (or at least repurpose their mechanics) with different difficulty tiers anyway and use that as a means of teaching/training new players for raiding.
Even though it wouldn't be "easy mode raids" so to speak it would still be exactly what a lot of us have wanted from an easy mode raids anyway so that would still be a win as far as I am concerned if it were implemented.

Raids should have been dropped with a tier  system like fractals. T1-T4+repeatable CMs, which is why, if Strikes get that treatment in EoD, I'm perfectly fine with them getting their own legendary gear.

Edited August 8, 2021 by Sir Alymer.3406

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

4 hours ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

And I guarantee you that if Anet put up a poll tomorrow that asked if every skritt should drop 40gold players would overwhelmingly support that too.

Doesn't mean it would be good for the game.

Just add  permadeath for the Skritt, that way it'll be balanced and we can wipe them all out at the same time!

No seriously, I love Skritt. :<

Edited August 8, 2021 by Hannelore.8153

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

31 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Raids should have been dropped with a tier  system like fractals. T1-T4+repeatable CMs, which is why, if Strikes get that treatment in EoD, I'm perfectly fine with them getting their own legendary gear.

I think public Strikes were supposed to mitigate the difficulty for more casual players, but it was a failed system because almost no one joins them willingly since its easy to wipe with a random party. Adding difficulty tiers (with less rewards) to it like Fractals would make public instances more viable, since they'd succeed more often.

 

The design behind publics was the same as the tutorial mission in Core and the Silverwastes mission in HoT, which was a very good idea just poorly implemented I think.

Edited August 8, 2021 by Hannelore.8153

[yann.1946]

On 8/7/2021 at 2:47 AM, Astralporing.1957 said:

There was nothing originally about raid armor being the only one. That came only later, after it took them nearly 2 years to design the envoy sets.

 

I suspect they actually did plan to make more sets, but simply gave up on this.

This is probably true, imo they should give the PvP and wvw armor unique skins before adding another set 

On 8/7/2021 at 2:47 AM, Astralporing.1957 said:

I am also quite sure that if they knew how the raid story would end, that content (and stuff locked behind it) woud not have ended up being so narrow in accessibility. If it would even have been released at all.

That seems not really true, as they did not expect a majority to do raids. That's where the quote about the surprisingly high partipation came from. 

This these rewards where always added for the minority 

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

2 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Having an opinion about raids isn't being biased against them, any more than liking them is being biased toward them.  Not liking coffee doesn't make you biased against coffee. It just means you have an opinion.

 

This is the definition of bias:

 

inclination or prejudice for or against one person or group, especially in a way considered to be unfair.

 

In what way is having an opinion about raids unfair?

 

5 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I could, but I won't, thanks. Because then I'll be counted as a raider. I'm not raiding for a reason. Finishing every raid shows that I'm a raider, and I don't want to be counted in that demographic. It's not the money, it's the principle.

You seem to have this idea that being labeled a  raider is some sort of pariah or a bad thing when it's not.  Defeating bosses in that content is okay, but let me explain to you why I and many others who do raid get rather perturbed by people who seem to have this attitude of "Minimal effort, maximum reward."  People who ask for alternative, easier, routes to items that  are supposed to be challenging to get either through time commitment or skill.

When I'm speaking critically of open world groups or players, I speak from experience.  I've been in raid groups that deal ~400k DPS and fractal groups that pull about half that and melt bosses in under a minute, while at the same time I've been in the open world squads of 50 players giving boons and doing a rotation only for the squad's total DPS to equate to just shy of 70-100k with myself and 2-5 others making up 80-95% of that DPS.  So forgive me if I come off as a bit jaded or prejudiced against open world players and people who come off as having their sort of attitude.

[Vayne.8563]

22 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

 

You seem to have this idea that being labeled a  raider is some sort of pariah or a bad thing when it's not.  Defeating bosses in that content is okay, but let me explain to you why I and many others who do raid get rather perturbed by people who seem to have this attitude of "Minimal effort, maximum reward."  People who ask for alternative, easier, routes to items that  are supposed to be challenging to get either through time commitment or skill.

When I'm speaking critically of open world groups or players, I speak from experience.  I've been in raid groups that deal ~400k DPS and fractal groups that pull about half that and melt bosses in under a minute, while at the same time I've been in the open world squads of 50 players giving boons and doing a rotation only for the squad's total DPS to equate to just shy of 70-100k with myself and 2-5 others making up 80-95% of that DPS.  So forgive me if I come off as a bit jaded or prejudiced against open world players and people who come off as having their sort of attitude.

I never said anything of the sort that you're saying. In fact, you have no idea what I'm saying.

You think that I"m saying being a raider is a pariah. In fact, I haven't said a single bad word about raiders. I spoke only of raids. I have no problem with raiders. I have a problem with raids. It's a different problem.

You seem to think being able to get through hard content is what makes a game great. Games aren't universally successful because they're hard. Some games are successful because they're fun. Some because they have a good story.  Some because they're different or fill a niche. At the end of the day the success of a game doesn't come down to challenge, except to those who play for challenge...not everyone does.

Some play to relax. Some play for social reasons. Some play to escape. There's a ton of reasons to play games. Challenge is just one of those reasons.

But this is now all off topic. When I replied to this topic, which was about legendary armor, I said I don't like raids as an aside, and I don't. But it doesn't change the fact that I was answering the question. Most people don't raid. This reward is locked behind a content most people will never do. Therefore this reward is for the small percentage of raiders. Of course, they're happy that they have a reward no one else has.

But the majority might not be.

[Astralporing.1957]

14 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

This is probably true, imo they should give the PvP and wvw armor unique skins before adding another set 

That seems not really true, as they did not expect a majority to do raids. That's where the quote about the surprisingly high partipation came from. 

This these rewards where always added for the minority 

They have always been exceedingly positive about their recent new ideas. Notice also, that what came latter suggested, that while they might not have expected as "surprisingly high participation" initially, they did expect that population to go up with time. Instead, it only kept getting down from that initial wave, until they gave up on the idea. Basically, everyone that was even slightly interested in finding out what raids are and whether they're fine for them or not tried them in the very beginning, and then some remained to do the content, while others gave up either immediately or after some time. And there was no significant number of new raiders because those that could have tried raids have already done that by this point (and the other source of new raiders - players that were completely new to the game - was practically never big enough to matter, or even cover the veterans leaving).

 

The raids could only bleed players, and it could not have been balanced by new blood coming in, because there was next to no new blood to be had (and "old blood" by that time already made their decision).

 

Do you really think that if they knew beforehand that the raid design will end with them deciding to abandon that content due to way too low population, that if they knew that the vast majority of players will simply nope out on raids even when actively being funneled into them, they would have still went with the very same design, instead of trying something else? Perhaps something more open, or even something completely different?

[Astralporing.1957]

3 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

You came to this thread precisely because you don't like raids so you could spout your opinion. 

And why, pray tell, did you come to this thread that is about alternate ways to obtain legendary armor, and start defending raids?

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

5 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

And why, pray tell, did you come to this thread that is about alternate ways to obtain legendary armor, and start defending raids?

Oh I'm not the one who was kittening about raids.  I came in here and you with a few others were complaining about how "hard and unfair" raids are.

All I've been trying to say is the following:

Raids, just like fractals, can be easily joined at reset or a little before they reset.  You'll be hard pressed to find a raid group later in the week but it's very easy to find them just after raids reset.  This is true for fractals and any other daily content.  3 hours before daily reset is going to be a hard sell to find players to do all of your CMs+T4s or even just T4s or strikes.

Raids are PvE content.  Nothing you say or do will convince ANet otherwise.   They're also a test of skill and group cohesion.  

This game has 3 major game modes.  PvE where it's players or groups of players vs NPCs or environment (This includes things like story, open world, raids, dungeons, fractals, strikes, DRMs, etc.).  WvW where it's a mix of PvE and PvP fighting over objectives with groups of 5-50 players (EotM, Mist war maps included).  And PvP where everyone's on an even playing field with gear being relegated to level 78 exotic tier and leveled up to 80.  All these game modes have options for legendary gear.  One of them doesn't require a group at all while the other teams you up with a group.

I've zero issues with strikes getting new legendary skins.  Emphasis on new. And have them locked behind the CM rewards.  Strikes reset daily so there's more opportunity to learn and join in.  Raids are held back by the  fact that it takes a week for them to reset and it sucks becauase, if they reset daily or at least had a daily reward beyond the blues/greens from the chest, they'd be ran way, way more

Edited August 8, 2021 by Sir Alymer.3406

[sergiomasako.2906]

On 8/2/2021 at 11:30 AM, Maiku Larzon.7150 said:

...

No, the legendary armor is not locked for you. What you want is just a skin, the legendary armor can be obtained in pvp or mvm if you are not caught in raid. I've got it and I don't have a guild or anything.

Edited August 8, 2021 by sergiomasako.2906

[Astralporing.1957]

Just now, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Oh I'm not the one who was kittening about raids.

So? You were the one that went into a thread about something in order to push a different narrative than the one this thread was to be about. So, if anyone has to explani their presence in this thread at all, it's you, not the ones that agree with OP.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

38 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

So? You were the one that went into a thread about something in order to push a different narrative than the one this thread was to be about. So, if anyone has to explani their presence in this thread at all, it's you, not the ones that agree with OP.

Yeah because a fair few people were advocating for any alternative route to legendary gear in PvE was pretending that raids aren't PvE and  denying any other content that they'd have to do outside of super casual content  they can afk.

You want the rewards, you should actually put forth the effort to earn them.  Legendaries have always been a grind and a show of commitment either to the game as a whole or a game mode specifically. (AD infinitum for fractals, Coalescence for PoF raids, Season 3 Aurora, Season 4 Vision, War bringer back for WvW, Ascension for PvP)  So if you want your legendary armor do the content that rewards it.  And if you want alternative ways to get it, advocate f or solutions that provide the same or similar effort.

If you want general pve legendary armor that doesn't require instanced content at all, I'd say they should have the same cost as a normal, Gen 2 legendary weapon per piece because you're paying for the convenience of skipping out on raids, wvw, and pvp grinding.  Clovers can be obtained via PvE either with mystic coins, DWC, login rewards, or fractals.  Gifts of battle are always necessary for every legendary, but that's 3-8 hours of WvW per piece (And would still be less time in WvW than if you went for the WvW armor.)  It should also have its own, unique skin, collection, and achievements for it.  This is why I'm also behind Strike CM rewards getting their own variation on legendary armor that has a similar cost to the Raid, WvW, and PvP armor, because, if ANet lives up to the hype on CM strikes in EoD, it'll take  a very similar effort as raids to acquire.

  

57 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

You seem to think being able to get through hard content is what makes a game great. Games aren't universally successful because they're hard. Some games are successful because they're fun. Some because they have a good story.  Some because they're different or fill a niche. At the end of the day the success of a game doesn't come down to challenge, except to those who play for challenge...not everyone does.

Nope.  I expect content that's rewarding what equates to the ultimate convenience item for people who change their builds and style frequently to continue to require the same effort be it in time spent, gold spent, or skills learned.  I don't want something that takes a ton of effort to be devalued because little Timmy hates all the options and wants to afk for their loot.

 

Quote

Some play to relax. Some play for social reasons. Some play to escape. There's a ton of reasons to play games. Challenge is just one of those reasons.

But this is now all off topic. When I replied to this topic, which was about legendary armor, I said I don't like raids as an aside, and I don't. But it doesn't change the fact that I was answering the question. Most people don't raid. This reward is locked behind a content most people will never do. Therefore this reward is for the small percentage of raiders. Of course, they're happy that they have a reward no one else has.

But the majority might not be.

What, pray tell me, do the people who sit and relax and socialize, to escape, etc, need legendary gear for?  I think most casuals who sit around bankstanding in LA or roleplaying off in some corner of the world, don't care about legendary gear at best, and haven't heard of the content at worst.

Edited August 8, 2021 by Sir Alymer.3406

[Aeis.8519]

46 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I never said anything of the sort that you're saying. In fact, you have no idea what I'm saying.

You think that I"m saying being a raider is a pariah. In fact, I haven't said a single bad word about raiders. I spoke only of raids. I have no problem with raiders. I have a problem with raids. It's a different problem.

As a lurker with no stakes in this, when I first read that "I would be considered a raider" line, it did come off to me as though you held raiders in some sort of disdain.

[Teratus.2859]

2 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Raids should have been dropped with a tier  system like fractals. T1-T4+repeatable CMs, which is why, if Strikes get that treatment in EoD, I'm perfectly fine with them getting their own legendary gear.

Maybe they should do another leggy set for strikes.
It would at least keep the Raid one a bit more prestigious if they did.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

Just now, Teratus.2859 said:

Maybe they should do another leggy set for strikes.
It would at least keep the Raid one a bit more prestigious if they did.

I'm for this so long as it has a similar amount of effort required to obtain.  It'll probably need more strike runs though, as they reset daily.

[Vayne.8563]

5 minutes ago, Aeis.8519 said:

As a lurker with no stakes in this, when I first read that "I would be considered a raider" line, it did come off to me as though you held raiders in some sort of disdain.

My argument isn't against raiders, again. It's against raids. Originally, MMOs were defined as anything with a persistent world. The world is what made an MMO. There were games that put players together from lobbys, like Guild Wars 1 as an example but they weren't MMOs. You couldn't meet people in the open world, you met them in towns and outposts, partied up and as soon as you left the outpost, you were with the party you took with you. There was no one else there. The entire game was instanced.

WoW was an MMO not because of raids, but because of the open, persistent world. That's what originally definded MMOs. I came to MMOs from RPGs. Half of MMORPGs is the RPG part. But raids weren't like RPGs to me. They were more like stand alone bosses that were just there to be a block to get gear.  So you have a timer guy standing there saying 3,2,1 everyone duck.  Okay at 10% he's going to do the big swinging attack everyone dodge. This wasn't an RPG to me. And it wasn't even an MMO. Standing in your queue waiting to play with ten or twenty other guys may have been multiplayer...but it wasn't massive multiplayer.

 

WoW wasn't the first MMORPG, but it was the game that put MMORPGs on the map. It made a lot of money. Do you know what happens when games make a lot of money? Everyone copies them.  But the assumption that WoW made a lot of money because it focused on raids is not necessarily the case. People don't know why it made money, so they copied everything. SWToR is WoW in a Star Wars Universe with a Bioware story tacked on.  When I played Rift we called it WoW 2.0.  If you liked raids, all was well and good, since almost every game funneled you into them. But none of those games really focused on the open world, the very thing that defined what an MMO was, and my primary area of interest.

I don't have a thousand games to choose from, I have very very few MMOs that didn't have raids or didn't focus on raids. So I was thrilled when I played this game and it seemed to be more about the open world. This game gave me what I wanted. I could have any legendary weapon I wanted and I wasn't locked out of anything by not raiding. Cue HoT.  Suddenly raids were there, but they weren't only there. They were the only content besides PvP tournaments that we got for 9 months. Casuals could be forgiven for thinking the game had taken a turn to the hard core, what with HoT being as hard as it was. This was a mistake, it cost Anet a lot of casual players and they responded with POF which was a reaction to HOT not being well received, even though I liked it myself. The open world felt confusing and dangerous but it was still the open world.

When a reward that I'd never get was placed into raids, not just a skin but the only animated skin in the game, I was really annoyed. Not at raiders. At Anet because even though they never promised me no raids, I thought the devs were coming from the same place I was. Obviously I was mistaken.

 

Raiders only asked for what they wanted. They can't be blamed for raids being in the game or rewards being locked behind them.  But the devs who I thought understood why so many of us were so loyal to this game for so long, suddenly I wasn't so sure they understood me at all. And  I can assure you I'm not the only me out here.  How many of people who play like me there are here are anyone's guess, but one thing is certain.

There are probably more casual players playing this game than hard core raiders.

[Teratus.2859]

Just now, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

I'm for this so long as it has a similar amount of effort required to obtain.  It'll probably need more strike runs though, as they reset daily.

Aye.
And the higher difficulties you partake in the quicker you can get it done.

[Cyninja.2954]

9 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

WoW wasn't the first MMORPG, but it was the game that put MMORPGs on the map. It made a lot of money. Do you know what happens when games make a lot of money? Everyone copies them. 

Please stop. What WoW did was make MMORPGs more accessible. The vast majority of MMORPGs before WoW had tremendously difficult content (including but not limited to), far beyond ANYTHING in this game or any MMORPG of the last 15 years.

 

Most important: nearly all MMORPGs REQUIRED group play and even actively put hurdles in the way of players who tried to go at it alone.

 

You don't get to complain about 1 aspect of past MMORPGs and conveniently leave out most of the others. Fine, let's not call them raids. Let's not even make them instanced content. Let's do then make them as hard as past MMORPGs and MUDs then if we are to idolize what the before WoW times were.

 

Yet somehow when this was approached, the outrage was great among players because suddenly it wasn't possible to solo everything.

 

Past MMORPGs built communities via making it a requirement that players cooperate and interact. This shifted to raids and instanced content as the remainder of the game became more solo-able. What you are arguing for now is literally moving away even from that limited grouping requirement. Leaving this game type with a huge bunch of players who have no reason to interact or cooperate. The massive came from many players cooperating, not from all being in the same game.

Edited August 8, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Vayne.8563]

46 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Yeah because a fair few people were advocating for any alternative route to legendary gear in PvE was pretending that raids aren't PvE and  denying any other content that they'd have to do outside of super casual content  they can afk.

You want the rewards, you should actually put forth the effort to earn them.  Legendaries have always been a grind and a show of commitment either to the game as a whole or a game mode specifically. (AD infinitum for fractals, Coalescence for PoF raids, Season 3 Aurora, Season 4 Vision, War bringer back for WvW, Ascension for PvP)  So if you want your legendary armor do the content that rewards it.  And if you want alternative ways to get it, advocate f or solutions that provide the same or similar effort.

If you want general pve legendary armor that doesn't require instanced content at all, I'd say they should have the same cost as a normal, Gen 2 legendary weapon per piece because you're paying for the convenience of skipping out on raids, wvw, and pvp grinding.  Clovers can be obtained via PvE either with mystic coins, DWC, login rewards, or fractals.  Gifts of battle are always necessary for every legendary, but that's 3-8 hours of WvW per piece (And would still be less time in WvW than if you went for the WvW armor.)  It should also have its own, unique skin, collection, and achievements for it.  This is why I'm also behind Strike CM rewards getting their own variation on legendary armor that has a similar cost to the Raid, WvW, and PvP armor, because, if ANet lives up to the hype on CM strikes in EoD, it'll take  a very similar effort as raids to acquire.

  

Nope.  I expect content that's rewarding what equates to the ultimate convenience item for people who change their builds and style frequently to continue to require the same effort be it in time spent, gold spent, or skills learned.  I don't want something that takes a ton of effort to be devalued because little Timmy hates all the options and wants to afk for their loot.

 

What, pray tell me, do the people who sit and relax and socialize, to escape, etc, need legendary gear for?  I think most casuals who sit around bankstanding in LA or roleplaying off in some corner of the world, don't care about legendary gear at best, and haven't heard of the content at worst.

What do casuals need animating armor for?  Because it animates. Give me an ascended version of the skins and I'd have no problem with that. But if the only animating armor  in the game is a raid reward, that's flawed, considering how few people raid out of the populace.  Saying we should play content we don't enjoy that we didn't sign on for that didn't exist for the first 3.5 years the game existed is an opinion. That's all it is.

My opinion is different. Disenfranchise the casuals, you might as well close the doors. Anet learned that with HoT. That's why POF was what it was. It was an over-reaction to be sure. My guess is EoD will be somewhere between.