Legendary armor is... Locked for some people.

[Astralporing.1957]

47 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

Yes, but this statement does not apply to the conversation. We where not talking about a general solution, the conversation for me atleast was what designprinciples cause problems,

And that caveat when discussing what the problem is should ALWAYS be given. otherwise people just sprout bs next to eachother.  

Like i mentioned, the caveats are not always apparent, or seem important to mention. They only become important when someone starts nitpicking.

Let's be honest, the only reason why skyscale entered that discussion was because you were looking for holes in my stance.

 

47 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

Let makes this clear, you said that they where also a pain for non-raiders. that was your argument.

And here again you try to put words in my mouth i have never said. I said:

"Chak eggs nowadays would be a problem even to non-raiders. It's just too much repetition of a single, specific meta".

That does not classify it as "pain". It definitely doesn't make it anywhere close to equal number of raid kills - much less 10/20 times that number.

It's just most players are now probably running Drizzlewood, or doing all the "return to" events, so going to gerent requires changing of schedule. WHich is kind of a problem, but definitely not as big as you try to make it.

 

47 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

I personally do think the Hot part is substential enough to warrant consideration.

 

Well you can't really claim that unless you would argue that gift of battle requires substential gameplay, which would crumble all things you said earlier about the acceptability.

Well, it's about as "substantial" as doing Gerent 10-15 times. So, only a shallow dipping into the content. It's nowhere as substantial as 150/300 raid kills.

 

47 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

Exactly my point, most people forget the amount of OW investment and thus associats the thing whit what bottlenecks them.

No. Because raid part is the one that requires the biggest by far investment in one specific content. Effort-wise everything else does not compare.

 

47 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

Notice however that that is a pretty substential selection bias at play here, and id rather avoid these. 

It's not a selection bias. Unless you really think that doing gerent 10-15 times is equal to 150/300 raid boss kills (and even if you do, i'm afraid you are pretty much alone in that regard)

 

47 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

You called it that yourself.

HoT armor? No, i never did that. And as for PvE - i generally call it "the only PvE armor" which is something different. In fact, i consider Envoy being "the PvE armor set" currently to be a massive problem, one that lies at the very core of most of discussion in this thread. Because it is a Raid armor.

(to clarify: Envoy is the PvE legendary armor because it happens to represent the whole PvE - but it only does that because no other alternative exists. Not because it is well suited for that name - because it is not).

 

Notice (again, because i have mentioned it to you several times over already), how each of those points appeared only because you keep assuming (or insisting) i said something i did not, or because you read from my sentences things you expected/wanted (but in reality weren;t present there).

 

By this point i truly start to think you might be doing it intentionally.

[Crystal Paladin.3871]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

The same way they get attracted to all other content - by hearing about it, trying it out, and realizing they like it. If that last part is not there, you have a problem. Sure, you can still try to buy off those players with shinies, but that is just painting the dying grass green.

get attracted, get to make a decision to step into, get to try out, get motivated.... allll depends on the first look or first impression.... and the armor is the first motivating factor for a new player to get into raids and some other little stuff like hearing about it from friends about how fun the game mode is... how nice graphics and cool looking raids are... weekly gold, asc drops, blah bah blah. imagine the first thing a new player about to hear is all the negative pessimistic and scary stuff from a guy like you, the new player would never try it out they never get t odecide for themselves if the mode is fun or not and raid mode wont get the fighting chance it deserves. and to addd to it, on top of that, u can get the exact same shiny armor from some other source say.. wvw... how would this game mode get a single tiny chance of ppl even trying it out?

Now,

Quote

.....and realizing they like it. If that last part is not there, you have a problem......

"realizing they like the game mode" it comes only after trying it out... not comes at the first glance when they haven't even tried the game mode even once.... and any challenging game mode needs a strong motivating factor to prep them to enjoy the true game mode fun I cant guarantee that a new player's first ever try in raid mode would be fun not for everyone and their state of mind at that time. only after getting their first kill and savouring that experience of giving your best and realizing your efforts into fruition becomes fun... similar to setting yourself a goal to sprint a 400m dash within x secs and taking some necessary steps interms of diet, healthy lifestyle, exercise, maintaining good stamina, improving to higher endurance levels and realizing your dream of reaching the goal and possibly grabbing that reward from that local competition o be held that is around the corner.

note: please don't derail/deviate the 400m dash example with legy armor from tis game... this example is to explain the experience of realizing your efforts come to fruition.

 

and when u tried out the game mode and left it coz of some weird reasons doesn't mean other would leave the mode too... I like this game mode.. what if there are more ppl like me who are potential new raiders and ppl like u kitten.U.ME that game mode is not good and drive off new players like me? I think u seriously have a problem u shd look into it.

 

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

You think that way. Most players do not seem to agree on the enjoyment part however.

Tell that to the new raiders who signup for the raid trainings..... tell that to the players who immediately fill up Fullclear groups in lfg.... tell that to the players who completed more than one set of legendary armor.... tell that to the players who do raids even after they cleared the wings for the current week... tell that to the players who ask anet for more new raid content.... tell that to the raiders in forums who are trying their best to keep the game mode alive by spending their time giving explanations to ppl who try to kill the game mode in these forums and trying their best to avoid the worst possible outcome...

 

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

And significantly underestimate the dislike majority of players have for the type of gameplay you prefer.

dont confuse your feelings towards the gamemode with how others are feeling about the game mode...

dislike as u mention here could be in two forms.... boring, hate

1) and boring is an endresult of ppl driving others away from game mode thus anet refusing to release new content for that particular game mode due to less population(certainly not a deadd population.. and definitely has potential to get alive and attract even more new and veteran players)

2) now hate could be in anyform... because of one's inability to participate in that gamemode due to time restrictions, flexibility in how we approach the mode(can go afk at anytime or pause the game for our need and continue where we left off like pausing samarog's brutalize attack and go get an iceccream and come back and resume gameplay), other priorities IRL, not willing to cross few hurdles to get ready for the content, physical injuries or other mental disability that we never heard of that could be making a player frustrated to enter/get eligible for the game mode

2) hate could also be because of toxic garbagey raiders who indirectly/unknowingly create bad impression on raids with their words and demotivating new raiders while trying to exert their dominance with garbagey god like pride

2) and for some ppl they just hate raids unconditionally without any reason

 

and the root cause of those dislike towards raids is not the game mode but a few ppl in the game mode and few ppl outside the game mode..

 

 

and if u disagree with me, pls consider this:

to make sure the opinions of the majority are valid, you shd

either give me the actual ratio of "ppl who have atleast 10 kills in each boss atleast in w1-w4 and still left the game mode" to "ppl who have more than 10 kills in each boss atleast in w1-w4 and still playing the game mode"

 

im not including the players who left the game mode and game or left it after getting 2000 li coz they mightve got bored due to no new content(coz it was an end result of some some hell bent ppl shouting at the top of their voice to scare new raiders away from game mode)

Edited August 11, 2021 by Crystal Paladin.3871

[Dante.1763]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

The same way they get attracted to all other content - by hearing about it, trying it out, and realizing they like it. If that last part is not there, you have a problem. Sure, you can still try to buy off those players with shinies, but that is just painting the dying grass green.

 

You think that way. Most players do not seem to agree on the enjoyment part however.

 

If you really think that i have enough influence to do anything about raid popularity, i should probably feel complimented - but i think that you significantly overestimate my capabilities in that regard. And significantly underestimate the dislike majority of players have for the type of gameplay you prefer.

Yup. I can easily do raids. Cleared wing 1 and 3 so far this week already. Didnt enjoy it though.

80 more LI left.

[Dante.1763]

11 minutes ago, Crystal Paladin.3871 said:

get attracted, get to make a decision to step into, get to try out, get motivated.... allll depends on the first look or first impression.... and the armor is the first motivating factor for a new player to get into raids and some other little stuff like hearing about it from friends about how fun the game mode is... how nice graphics and cool looking raids are... weekly gold, asc drops, blah bah blah. imagine the first thing a new player about to hear is all the negative pessimistic and scary stuff from a guy like you, the new player would never try it out they never get t odecide for themselves if the mode is fun or not and raid mode wont get the fighting chance it deserves.

Now,

"realizing they like the game mode" it comes only after trying it out... not comes at the first glance when they haven't even tried the game mode even once.... and any challenging game mode needs a strong motivating factor to prep them to enjoy the true game mode fun I cant guarantee that a new player's first ever try in raid mode would be fun not for everyone and their state of mind at that time. only after getting their first kill and savouring that experience of giving your best and realizing your efforts into fruition becomes fun... similar to setting yourself a goal to sprint a 400m dash within x secs and taking some necessary steps interms of diet, healthy lifestyle, exercise, maintaining good stamina, improving to higher endurance levels and realizing your dream of reaching the goal and possibly grabbing that reward from that local competition o be held that is around the corner.

note: please don't derail/deviate the 400m dash example with legy armor from tis game... this example is to explain the experience of realizing your efforts come to fruition.

 

and when u tried out the game mode and left it coz of some weird reasons doesn't mean other would leave the mode too... I like this game mode.. what if there are more ppl like me who are potential new raiders and ppl like u kitten.U.ME that game mode is not good and drive off new players like me? I think u seriously have a problem u shd look into it.

 

Tell that to the new raiders who signup for the raid trainings..... tell that to the players who immediately fill up Fullclear groups in lfg.... tell that to the players who completed more than one set of legendary armor.... tell that to the players who do raids even after they cleared the wings for the current week... tell that to the players who ask anet for more new raid content.... tell that to the raiders in forums who are trying their best to keep the game mode alive by spending their time giving explanations to ppl who try to kill the game mode in these forums and trying their best to avoid the worst possible outcome...

 

dont confuse your feelings towards the gamemode with how others are feeling about the game mode...

dislike as u mention here could be in two forms.... boring, hate

1) and boring is an endresult of ppl driving others away from game mode thus anet refusing to release new content for that particular game mode due to less population(certainly not a deadd population.. and definitely has potential to get alive and attract even more new and veteran players)

2) now hate could be in anyform... because of one's inability to participate in that gamemode due to time restrictions, flexibility in how we approach the mode(can go afk at anytime or pause the game for our need and continue where we left off like pausing samarog's brutalize attack and go get an iceccream and come back and resume gameplay), other priorities IRL, not willing to cross few hurdles to get ready for the content, physical injuries or other mental disability that we never heard of that could be making a player frustrated to enter/get eligible for the game mode

2) hate could also be because of toxic garbagey raiders who indirectly/unknowingly create bad impression on raids with their words and demotivating new raiders while trying to exert their dominance with garbagey god like pride

2) and for some ppl they just hate raids unconditionally without any reason

 

and the root cause of those dislike towards raids is not the game mode but a few ppl in the game mode and few ppl outside the game mode..

 

 

and if u disagree with me, pls consider this:

to make sure the opinions of the majority are valid, you shd

either give me the actual ratio of "ppl who have atleast 10 kills in each boss atleast in w1-w4 and still left the game mode" to "ppl who have more than 10 kills in each boss atleast in w1-w4 and still playing the game mode"

 

im not including the players who left the game mode and game or left it after getting 2000 li coz they mightve got bored due to no new content(coz it was an end result of some some hell bent ppl shouting at the top of their voice to scare new raiders away from game mode)

You are literally doing what you tell Astral and others in this thread to not do.

 

You are confusing your emotions and how you feel about the mode for how others should to.

 

you like and enjoy raids, congrats. Any new player who likes enjoys raids i say the same thing. Congrats.

 

On the other Hand, there are players like me who freaking despise them, can and does do them, but hates it. I hate the whole experience of raids.

 

For every one player that enjoys raids theres probably 2 who can do it, who dont like the content and some, like Astral got all 3 armor sets. Which is why theres such a clear cut off on the amount of LI earned at 1 and 3 sets.

 

The difference between you and i? Is i dont tell everyone who doesnt enjoy the mode that they are wrong in how they feel.

 

once i get my LI for my light armor im done with raids, and i cant wait to not ever set foot in them again because it kills my enjoyment of the game.

[Crystal Paladin.3871]

some ppl dont enjoy raid mechanics and the joy of looking at your own dps numbers rising above other ppl in the squad, keeping all your squad mates alive and taking that as a challenge and gettting fun and exhilarating experience out of it... but instead find fun by mindnumbingly following a golem for 30 mins and putting out a very huge menacingly looking fire in 10 secs or less...

 

Some example of fun:

you looking at a player who runs towards the fountain with 30% hp inflicted with poison (during matthias gabrael encounter) and your presence of mind kicks in and u do a condi cleanse on him by CA skill "seed of life" and then getting him up to shape by spamming "cosmic ray" 3 times when he suddenly gets Unstable Blood Magic and he might go downstate/die after purging it in the edges and running back... that player would be so grateful to you and you'll get that exhilarating experience from the situation.... if you dont agree with me on this experience as fun, then idk what kinda of fun you prefer? maybe some ppl find chopping the trees 10 times more funtastic funnnnn

[Dante.1763]

12 minutes ago, Crystal Paladin.3871 said:

some ppl dont enjoy raid mechanics and the joy of looking at your own dps numbers rising above other ppl in the squad, keeping all your squad mates alive and taking that as a challenge and gettting fun and exhilarating experience out of it... but instead find fun by mindnumbingly following a golem for 30 mins and putting out a very huge menacingly looking fire in 10 secs or less...

 

Some example of fun:

you looking at a player who runs towards the fountain with 30% hp inflicted with poison (during matthias gabrael encounter) and your presence of mind kicks in and u do a condi cleanse on him by CA skill "seed of life" and then getting him up to shape by spamming "cosmic ray" 3 times when he suddenly gets Unstable Blood Magic and he might go downstate/die after purging it in the edges and running back... that player would be so grateful to you and you'll get that exhilarating experience from the situation.... if you dont agree with me on this experience as fun, then idk what kinda of fun you prefer? maybe some ppl find chopping the trees 10 times more funtastic funnnnn

Again. "If you dont enjoy the mode you are wrong."

 

I do raids. I suffer through them so i can get the one armor set i want the skin(note not even the quality of the item. I want the skin, so i wont be doing medium and heavy sets.)

 

what you listed there is part of raids, nothing more. To the healers and support classes i say thanks however. Still not fun though.

 

They are unenjoyable. The opposite of fun, and seriously detract from the enjoyment of the game. To me and lots of others, even if we can do them.

 

I do t4 fractals, i do dungeons, i solo champions, i work on achievments. That is SOME of the content i find fun.

 

Edited August 11, 2021 by Dante.1763

[Crystal Paladin.3871]

12 minutes ago, Dante.1763 said:

You are literally doing what you tell Astral and others in this thread to not do.

I'm literally doing what I tell astral and other shd do to give the game mode a fighting chance an not to take it away and kill and bury it...

 

14 minutes ago, Dante.1763 said:

You are confusing your emotions and how you feel about the mode for how others should to.

tell that to the ppl who are still doing the game mode even after they got eveything from the game mode and what it offers.. evvery bit of armor, every bit of skin and tp portal, everything and they still do it.. 

I'd say yore confusing your emotions with how other new players would feel about the game mode pls dont assume and conclude everyone hate this game mode and thus its only fair to make the raid armor available by some other means and thus kill off new influx of players...

 

17 minutes ago, Dante.1763 said:

you like and enjoy raids, congrats. Any new player who likes enjoys raids i say the same thing. Congrats.

Thank you... I like the game mode and want it to survive...If it survives, it'll definitely get new content... new players and old veterans would swarm the game mode... I feel happy when lfg gets filled up soon when i go for my weekly clears(even though i feel jealous that someone get to join the group before me but I somehow get other groups and finish my clears anyway).... I feel happy when new players join training runs when "Crossroads Inn" ,"RTI" and my guild organize training raid runs and it gets filled up by new raiders...

 

21 minutes ago, Dante.1763 said:

On the other Hand, there are players like me who freaking despise them, can and does do them, but hates it. I hate the whole experience of raids.

I dont know what to reply to this except I wish u find some kind of fun in the mode.... your despise maybe because of some toxic raiders, or some time restrictions, or some physical/mental challenge that we don't know about.. but I hope you get some form of fun out of this game mode atleast during your journey towards the armor set....

 

24 minutes ago, Dante.1763 said:

For every one player that enjoys raids theres probably 2 who can do it, who dont like the content and some, like Astral got all 3 armor sets. Which is why theres such a clear cut off on the amount of LI earned at 1 and 3 sets.

I agree some ppl may not find the ccontent to suit them... could be n number of reasons... all I ask is dontt try to cut out the fighting chance the game mode has by attracting/seducing new players to atleast TRY THE CONTENT(atleast they get 10 kills in every boss in w1-4)...

Astral didn't get 3 sets, he did the content to just get the first set(might've got the first set and by curiosity I did check him out to make sure his claims are valid or by genuine means he did despise the mode) and left the mode due to n number of unknown reasons.. which by one he explained previously how he felt so bored by doing the content... 

and ppl having 1 and 3 sets is different from ppl tring to get their 2nd and 3rd set after getting their 1st set.. ppl who do only raids wont get much gold income and they would have a longer time to gather t6 mats and othe rgold sink to finish their successive raid sets.. and some ppl wouldve already got their differing weights of legy armor from other modes like wvw and pvp so they have li but they dont pursue the raid set coz they felt that it could be waste of resources(even b4 legy armory, most cost conscious ppl would just transfer the armor pieces using bank and shared inv slots)

 

26 minutes ago, Dante.1763 said:

The difference between you and i? Is i dont tell everyone who doesnt enjoy the mode that they are wrong in how they feel.

Idk if I made u(or the others) feel that my words relayed such opinion... That's not my intent... I EMPHASIZE in all my comments please DO NOT negatively impact new raiders or take away the fighting chance this game mode has to keep itself alive(attract new raiders with shiny armor and give them the taste of the game mode).

If you feel bad about the game mode and despise it, why would you guys be so hell bent on taking it away from new raiders? If u despise it, get what you want from the game mode, be ccontend with it and leave.. but dont plant bad seeds in new raiders minds or kill the mode by taking away the attracting property(which most find it attractive and thus the OP ccreated this thread and even u guys find it attractive so as to make it available by other means)

 

41 minutes ago, Dante.1763 said:

once i get my LI for my light armor im done with raids, and i cant wait to not ever set foot in them again because it kills my enjoyment of the game.

so developers who designed raids did it secretly to bring loss to anet and ncsoft and specifically to make the players unhappy and leave the game... and all other mmo out there that has raid content have a secret sect of developers who do it continuously to bring loss to the game company and to kill the enjoyment of their playerbase? 

There could be some ppl who hate the gamemode and ther could be some just convince themselves that they hate the game mode... there could be some who pretend in forums they hate the game mode... all i ask is dont let it get in the way of players who potentially might like the game mode... please step aside... if u are serious on improving the game mode... please do it in a constructive way and dont focus all attention on killing it...

[Crystal Paladin.3871]

55 minutes ago, Dante.1763 said:

Again. "If you dont enjoy the mode you are wrong."

😂🤣 whaat? I didnt say that.. ure saying that i did.. but i didnt.. I used the golem example to compare the kind of fun some ppl feel in gw2.... following the golem could be fun for some ppl.. I didnt say its wrong... why do u keep translating it that way? do you feel that finding fun by  following golem is wrong in your inner mind? but are not willing t oaccept it in reality? idk... go figure

 

55 minutes ago, Dante.1763 said:

I do raids. I suffer through them so i can get the one armor set i want the skin(note not even the quality of the item. I want the skin, so i wont be doing medium and heavy sets.)

Whatever floats your boat I guess.. I hope u get some kind of fun or atleast happiness once u realize ur dps got improved , ur reaction time got improved or you managed to transition from skill clicking to hotkey usage, maybe u find fun in exploring new roles and spec and builds and multi role/multiclass . I wish atleast some stuff that you grew in yourself by doing raids gave u a kind of fun experience... or if nothing of the above gave u fun... I dont know .. its something that is not revealed to me.. I dont and wont blame u.. dont think/guess I'm trying o belittle anyone who hates raids.. all i ask is for them to step away if they find it not fun in any way whatsoever.. its good ofr them to step away but dont drag others with you is all I ask

 

55 minutes ago, Dante.1763 said:

what you listed there is part of raids, nothing more. To the healers and support classes i say thanks however. Still not fun though.

 

They are unenjoyable. The opposite of fun, and seriously detract from the enjoyment of the game. To me and lots of others, even if we can do them.

 

I do t4 fractals, i do dungeons, i solo champions, i work on achievments. That is SOME of the content i find fun.

 

few stuff I can understand from your comments is u find a group content to be unfun if it's success depends heavily on teamwork. example.. healers finding it fun to perform their role... dps depend on other dps and healers and boon supports for the success of the encounter

and yet one thing that do bother me from your comment is.. u like doing fractals... which is a group content.. if the healer didnt heal you you cant succeed in the encounter... dps is less, you all get wiped soon and puts heavy pressure on those ppl who do try to dps the boss ppl with soldier stats gear might find it fun in fractals as they wont die/get downed/receive heavy damage when the encounter gets dragged on long enough... as fatigue sets in the players with glass builds will fail a few mechanics and few aoe fields and get downed as the encounter gets dragged on by low dps by soldier stats players... and on the other hand.. self sustained soldier stats players would find themselves standing alive even after their glass cannon counterparts died and they drag the fight long enough either they kill the boss after an hour or.. they die after 59mins 59 secs... or gg the encounter multiple times until they all push thru it together....

but in raids... if u fail a mecchanic, even if u have soldier stats, u wont survive lethal mechanics and die and wipe often gg often and that inturn would create a bad experience for ppl who use soldier stats and consider the gamemode unfun....

 

the soldier stats I mention here could be anything like celestial stats or any other stats which is highly survivable but puts a lot of pressure on other players in group content and fractal t4's are easily doable with celestial, trailblazer stats... but fractal cm's would definitely put heavy pressure on the healer and other dps players on the game modes.

 

these high sustainable solo gears help us to solo champions in open world, dungeons and breeze thru some content...

 

you do dungeons and find it fun even tho anet stopped any new content flow for that gamemode doing it over and over gives you fun.... but astral finds it boring to do the same stuff over and over again... even among ppl who find raids unfun have segregation among themselves...

 

I'm not implicating that u have soldier stats/celestial/trailblazer stats gear... this could be a scenario where ppl compare fractals is fun and raids are not...

 

 

so the term fun can be based on some other factors like gears, considering the pressure you place on your teammates and playstyle too...

Edited August 11, 2021 by Crystal Paladin.3871

[Nico.9361]

On 8/2/2021 at 10:42 PM, Katary.7096 said:

2) HoT raid content (all 4 wings)

This might be a problem for some people. I don't really understand the aversion towards raids.

Yes, some people are mean. Outside of "know your rotation perfectly" and "90% benchmark minimum", community is fine. People can choose the squad with which they want to raid.

 

I always thought, legendary gear was supposed to be a bit of a challenge and PvE with raids could have been one. It's not asking for much tbh, just doing the mechanics. People are scared of mechanics. Dead dps is no dps, please start doing mechanics before EoD comes. From what I understood, we might see some mean mobs during our trip to Cantha.

On 8/2/2021 at 10:42 PM, Katary.7096 said:

1) HoT open world content (all 4 maps and their meta events)

For me some of the most replayable content GW2 has to offer. Straight forward mechanics, meta with break bars to teach people about CC, 1 hit downed opponents to remind people that dodge is a thing. 2 of the 4 maps offering pricey rare loot too, so do them, do them, do them.

 

PS. Please play nice and share TMs with your friends. The box has no dps check associated with its drop rate (you get the credit for event even without mastery with healing the attacking PCs).

 

Peace out 😁

[Crystal Paladin.3871]

please think thru this with open mind.... Anet DID NOT BLOCK THE CONVENIENCE OF LEGENDARY ARMORS FROM ANYONE AND OPENED UP OPPORTUNITIES THRU WVW and PVP. this thread is all about SNINY ASPECT OF THE RAID ARMOR. WHY NOT DO THE GAME MODE FOR JUST THAT ONE SINGLE ITSY BITSY ASPECT AND LET NEW PLAYERS TASTE THE FUN

 

the convenience of the legendary armor is already present by doing any of the available 3 gamemodes and u all know it well

[yann.1946]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Like i mentioned, the caveats are not always apparent, or seem important to mention. They only become important when someone starts nitpicking.

Let's be honest, the only reason why skyscale entered that discussion was because you were looking for holes in my stance.

I brought the skyscale up specifically because it stood in contrast with your stated stance. And as I wanted to undersrand your position I did exactly the opposite of what you are claiming I'm doing, I specifically only looked at your words, not my interpretation of what the more reasonable stance would be. 

 

I've specifically gave a word for word example a few posts earlier. And you glossed over it. 

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

And here again you try to put words in my mouth i have never said. I said:

"Chak eggs nowadays would be a problem even to non-raiders. It's just too much repetition of a single, specific meta".

Would this not mean that irmt would not be shallow engament?

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

That does not classify it as "pain". It definitely doesn't make it anywhere close to equal number of raid kills - much less 10/20 times that number.

It's just most players are now probably running Drizzlewood, or doing all the "return to" events, so going to gerent requires changing of schedule. WHich is kind of a problem, but definitely not as big as you try to make it.

I'll be more specific then, all parts which requires substantial gameplay investment I consider parts of the legendary. 

So for example. 

Gift of battle, shallow engament. So not really relevant. 

Raid part, substantial engagement. 

Hot meta part, substantial engagement. 

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Well, it's about as "substantial" as doing Gerent 10-15 times. So, only a shallow dipping into the content. It's nowhere as substantial as 150/300 raid kills.

So to you the amount of hot metas you need are shallow engagement? 

The crystaline ore is shallow engagement? 

Because I gave the gerent meta only as an example because I assumed that you'd agree based on your claim that they would be a problem. 

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

No. Because raid part is the one that requires the biggest by far investment in one specific content. Effort-wise everything else does not compare.

The biggest sure, but not the only substantial one. 

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

It's not a selection bias. Unless you really think that doing gerent 10-15 times is equal to 150/300 raid boss kills (and even if you do, i'm afraid you are pretty much alone in that regard)

It is selection bias, notice though that technically all the other parts could take one second, it would still be selection bias. 

 

I'm not claiming that just the chack gerent is compatible to the totality of raids. If that is what you thought I said I'm really  sorry for some weird miscommunication. I said that the hot parts are a substantial part of the set. 

 

A person who only raids can not be reasonably expected to get the set without heavy investment in the hot maps. 

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

HoT armor? No, i never did that.

You called it the pve armor, that's what I meant 

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

 

And as for PvE - i generally call it "the only PvE armor" which is something different. In fact, i consider Envoy being "the PvE armor set" currently to be a massive problem, one that lies at the very core of most of discussion in this thread. Because it is a Raid armor.

(to clarify: Envoy is the PvE legendary armor because it happens to represent the whole PvE - but it only does that because no other alternative exists. Not because it is well suited for that name - because it is not).

Thank you for the clarification. 

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Notice (again, because i have mentioned it to you several times over already),

 

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

how each of those points appeared only because you keep assuming (or insisting) i said something i did not, or because you read from my sentences things you expected/wanted (but in reality weren;t present there).

Mention how this is completely false, I specifically gave counterproof based on claims we both made. You just ignored them for some reason. 

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

By this point i truly start to think you might be doing it intentionally.

What I am trying to do is understand where people are coming from. That is explicitly why I'm making as little assumptions as possible about your position. 

 

Thing is, that makes the conversation difficult because it's apperently not something your used to. 

 

The one example where I assumed something that was not said was the hot armour parts. All the other things where just logical deduction based on what you said, where the problem came because you had not said everything that was important to your point. 

[yann.1946]

3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

The same way they get attracted to all other content - by hearing about it, trying it out, and realizing they like it. If that last part is not there, you have a problem. Sure, you can still try to buy off those players with shinies, but that is just painting the dying grass green.

 

You think that way. Most players do not seem to agree on the enjoyment part however.

 

If you really think that i have enough influence to do anything about raid popularity, i should probably feel complimented - but i think that you significantly overestimate my capabilities in that regard. And significantly underestimate the dislike majority of players have for the type of gameplay you prefer.

You would be surprised about how much influence the general anti raid sentiment can have. We have had multiple treads of people who said how turned off off raids they where, and only tried after they felt like nothing else to do. And where surprised how they liked it. 

 

No sane person is going to say that raids will be enjoyed by the mayority, but they would be equally insane to claim general anti raider sentiment has had no impact on raid popularity 

[Dante.1763]

22 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

I brought the skyscale up specifically because it stood in contrast with your stated stance. And as I wanted to undersrand your position I did exactly the opposite of what you are claiming I'm doing, I specifically only looked at your words, not my interpretation of what the more reasonable stance would be. 

 

I've specifically gave a word for word example a few posts earlier. And you glossed over it. 

Would this not mean that irmt would not be shallow engament?

I'll be more specific then, all parts which requires substantial gameplay investment I consider parts of the legendary. 

So for example. 

Gift of battle, shallow engament. So not really relevant. 

Raid part, substantial engagement. 

Hot meta part, substantial engagement. 

So to you the amount of hot metas you need are shallow engagement? 

The crystaline ore is shallow engagement? 

Because I gave the gerent meta only as an example because I assumed that you'd agree based on your claim that they would be a problem. 

The biggest sure, but not the only substantial one. 

It is selection bias, notice though that technically all the other parts could take one second, it would still be selection bias. 

 

I'm not claiming that just the chack gerent is compatible to the totality of raids. If that is what you thought I said I'm really  sorry for some weird miscommunication. I said that the hot parts are a substantial part of the set. 

 

A person who only raids can not be reasonably expected to get the set without heavy investment in the hot maps. 

You called it the pve armor, that's what I meant 

Thank you for the clarification. 

 

Mention how this is completely false, I specifically gave counterproof based on claims we both made. You just ignored them for some reason. 

What I am trying to do is understand where people are coming from. That is explicitly why I'm making as little assumptions as possible about your position. 

 

Thing is, that makes the conversation difficult because it's apperently not something your used to. 

 

The one example where I assumed something that was not said was the hot armour parts. All the other things where just logical deduction based on what you said, where the problem came because you had not said everything that was important to your point. 

I will say i dont consider HOT metas to be large or even substantial engagement.

 

They dont take long(outside of dragonstorm, and i do wish more metas like that existed.), but need to be done a bit. Pretty sure ive gotten all the eggs laying around because i have no use for them at the moment, but still do the content on the regular for other things the content has.

 

Dragonite ore? Need it for a bunch of items including legendaries.

The map currencies? Need it for alot of achievements and i cant keep up with how much i need.

[Astralporing.1957]

30 minutes ago, Crystal Paladin.3871 said:

I'm literally doing what I tell astral and other shd do to give the game mode a fighting chance an not to take it away and kill and bury it...

It was given a fighting chance. If the 6 years of raiding existing in this game did not make them popular however, it's completely on them.

 

Besides, again, you want to bribe players in hope that maybe they will miraculously realize they do like that content, instead of trying to aim at the content itself to be appealing to them.

You try to present all those things that even you realize prevent most players form liking raids as if they were completely separate from the content, when in fact they are either part of raids' core design, or a direct consequence of that design. Additionally, you want to bribe players into either ignoring those things, or suppressing their dislike of them, all in vain hope that they will miraculously realize they do like that content, instead of trying to aim at the content itself to be appealing to them. Asmost as if you already knew that the content as it is will never be appealing to them.

 

30 minutes ago, Crystal Paladin.3871 said:

tell that to the ppl who are still doing the game mode even after they got eveything from the game mode and what it offers.. evvery bit of armor, every bit of skin and tp portal, everything and they still do it.. 

And? We already do know that the number of those people is low enough to threaten raid survival, and the main reason why that content got abandoned by devs. Seriously, at this point even WvW seems to be in better situation than raids are. And WvW never needed shinies on the level of the Envoy set to be that way - in fact, it managed to stay somewhat afloat despite being generally unrewarding.

 

30 minutes ago, Crystal Paladin.3871 said:

I'd say yore confusing your emotions with how other new players would feel about the game mode pls dont assume and conclude everyone hate this game mode and thus its only fair to make the raid armor available by some other means and thus kill off new influx of players...

Not everyone, no. But the amount of players that do like it is very small.

And again, the people that get pulled in by existence of Envoy set for the most part do not care for Raids either - compared to those that entered the raids and got their sets, the numbers of those that keep doing it after that poit is very low.

 

Let's look at gw2efficiency statistics (and at both extremes - overall stats, and stats for most dedicated players range, so 4000+ hours)

 

The amount of players that got at least one raid kill is not bad for the all players category (35%) and absolutely massive for 4000+h veterans - 70%

10 kills (which should be enough to get the feet wet and give basic feeling about the content): 22.5% and 55% respectively

50 kills (enough to be absolutely sure whether you like the content or not): 16% and 44% respectively

150 kills (first armor set) - 11% and 35.5% respectively

450 kills (second armor set) - 6% and 23%

750 kills (third armor set) - ~`4% and 16.5%

900 kills (three armor sets and a ring) - ~3% and 14%

1000 kills (you still keep raiding for a while after all legendary goals have been achieved) - 2.5% and 12%

1500 kills (far enough from legendary level that you don't get there unless you actually do truly like doing it) - 1.5% and 7%

 

So, from the one kill range to 10 kills, you already managed to lose one/third of all players, and a quarter of veterans. By the time you hit 50 kills, those losses rise up to half and a third respectively.

Of those that got so far, only two/thirds of all players, and 80% of veterans manage to get to the first armor set (so, basically, one third of all players, and one fifth of veterans gave up after already being past those hurdles you brought up as the issue stopping players from getting in, without even trying for the first set)

Between first and third armor set you lose two thirds of all players, and half of veterans

And between those that got to obtain all the raid legendaries, about only half stays to raid further beyond this point (from the 50 kill point, so, past the initial hurdles, to there, it is alrady a loss of five sixth of all players and five seventh of veterans)

 

Basically, we can make two observations here. First, that raiding survives on the back of veterans, not new players. Second, that huge majority of raid population seems to be there for legendaries only and do not stay after they've obtained them. And even of those most do not manage to stay for the whole road.

 

So, yes, your suspicions that it's the legendary reward that keeps raids barely alive seems to have merit. But that also shows that only a small number of players actually ever liked that content. Most players were bought to artificially inflate the numbers and make raids seem more popular than they'd be otherwise.

 

 

30 minutes ago, Crystal Paladin.3871 said:

Thank you... I like the game mode and want it to survive...If it survives, it'll definitely get new content...

Everything points out to it already being abandoned two years ago - because the content was so unappealing that even the Envoy set, which does seem to massively inflate that content's popularity, was not enough to keep people in there.

So, basically, we're again to the point i made several posts ago - you seem to have a problem with the content itself. Solve that, and the content will live. If you don't solve it however, no amount of buying fake population will save it anyway.

 

30 minutes ago, Crystal Paladin.3871 said:

new players and old veterans would swarm the game mode... 

It's good to have beliefs and hopes, but i am afraid that this is not supported by past experiences. Raid population started going down already even before wing 5. Wing 7 release, instead of slowing it down, only accelerated the decline. Even if Anet decided at some point to return to raids (which at this point doesn't seem to be something they intend), it would only end the same way.

 

30 minutes ago, Crystal Paladin.3871 said:

I agree some ppl may not find the ccontent to suit them... could be n number of reasons... all I ask is dontt try to cut out the fighting chance the game mode has by attracting/seducing new players to atleast TRY THE CONTENT(atleast they get 10 kills in every boss in w1-4)...

See the numbers above. The problem is not with the players that never get to that point. The problem this mode has is with players that give up after it.

It's not the bad press or initial hurdles that stop the mode from being popular. It's that the content that's after you pass those is unfun to most.

 

30 minutes ago, Crystal Paladin.3871 said:

Astral didn't get 3 sets, he did the content to just get the first set(might've got the first set and by curiosity I did check him out to make sure his claims are valid or by genuine means he did despise the mode)

https://killproof.me/proof/dEYY

I do not have two of the three sets unlocked, because i found the medium armor skin to be ugly, and i never actually bothered to get enough provisioner tokens to get them beforehand (i am currently in process of obtaining them, btw). I would have made the sets long ago, but i actually stopped playing for over a year after i got to 750 tokens (as a direct result of raiding - i did mention that in one of my earlier posts), and after i returned to playing i decided there's no hurry (besides, i stopped all my legendary production after i heard the first mentions of legendary armory, as i wanted to know first how it's going to work)

So, yeah, i technically do not have all 3 sets yet. I only have one at the moment - but i still have farmed all the required raid tokens for all three.

 

30 minutes ago, Crystal Paladin.3871 said:

so developers who designed raids did it secretly to bring loss to anet and ncsoft and specifically to make the players unhappy and leave the game...

No, i don;t think they did so intentionally. I think they just hoped raids would be more popular, but miscalculated on one or many things (like not understanding their own playerbase, or not understanding how their own game system would impact the skill gap that exists between players)

Btw, one of later interviews with one of the raid devs gives us some clues to the possible source of the problem. It seems that part of the design considerations at least were being done by people that were very passionate about raids... because they were formerly raid players themselves in other games. And they were making some assumptions and design decisions based on those emotions, not thinking that they might not be universal among the playerbase.

 

30 minutes ago, Crystal Paladin.3871 said:

and all other mmo out there that has raid content have a secret sect of developers who do it continuously to bring loss to the game company and to kill the enjoyment of their playerbase? 

The MMORPGs you bring up are raid-focused, with whole game working in support of that content. You can't simply try to implant raid ideas from them into this game and think they will work - not unless you'd be willing to completely redo all the game design so it, similarily, would support raids.

Notice also, how all those succesful MMORPGs also happen to be gear progression-based and include multiple tiers of difficulty (without assuming that many players will ever go for those top tiers, btw).

And that even in those raid-focused games, it's still mostly the casuals that ultimately decide about their successes or falls.

 

 

[Dante.1763]

2 hours ago, Crystal Paladin.3871 said:

Whatever floats your boat I guess.. I hope u get some kind of fun or atleast happiness once u realize ur dps got improved , ur reaction time got improved or you managed to transition from skill clicking to hotkey usage, maybe u find fun in exploring new roles and spec and builds and multi role/multiclass . I wish atleast some stuff that you grew in yourself by doing raids gave u a kind of fun experience... or if nothing of the above gave u fun... I dont know .. its something that is not revealed to me.. I dont and wont blame u.. dont think/guess I'm trying o belittle anyone who hates raids.. all i ask is for them to step away if they find it not fun in any way whatsoever.. its good ofr them to step away but dont drag others with you is all I ask

I didnt find it fun at all, and if had a route to legendary armor(not envoy armor) in pve, i wouldnt have to suffer through a game mode i hate and despise, and players who do enjoy the mode wouldnt have to me in their party. That "step away" doesnt work here anyways because i do want the skin, and not the quality.

 

Dont care about my dps going up, it was already on the higher end anyways and hasnt seen any marked improvements, the joys of actually learning the game. Something i didnt do because of raids.

 

2 hours ago, Crystal Paladin.3871 said:

few stuff I can understand from your comments is u find a group content to be unfun if it's success depends heavily on teamwork. example.. healers finding it fun to perform their role... dps depend on other dps and healers and boon supports for the success of the encounter

You added words to mouth. Dont do that.

 

2 hours ago, Crystal Paladin.3871 said:

You like doing fractals... which is a group content.. if the healer didnt heal you you cant succeed in the encounter... dps is less, you all

Done t4s without healers plenty of times. T4s are faster than any raid wing, less intensive, and need less players, which it makes it easier to hop in and out of. You can also stop after doing 1 t4. Most of the people i do raids with do the entire the wing.

2 hours ago, Crystal Paladin.3871 said:

these high sustainable solo gears help us to solo champions in open world, dungeons and breeze thru some content...

None of my builds are high sustain. I use raid builds(i should say with exceptions. I swap out skills i dont enjoy using to those i enjoy using). for almost all builds, unless im goofing off and doing things for fun, and even then the stats are built to do damage.

2 hours ago, Crystal Paladin.3871 said:

you do dungeons and find it fun even tho anet stopped any new content flow for that gamemode doing it over and over gives you fun.... but astral finds it boring to do the same stuff over and over again... even among ppl who find raids unfun have segregation among themselves...

Almost like we arent the same person and can have different ideas.

 

 

Edited August 11, 2021 by Dante.1763

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, yann.1946 said:

Would this not mean that irmt would not be shallow engament?

No? That's 10-15 events at most, each takes around 10 minutes maybe. The main problem is not forgetting about the timer and not missing the event by few minutes or so (and having to wait another 2 hours). Which does happen if you're engaged in something else.

 

Quote

I'll be more specific then, all parts which requires substantial gameplay investment I consider parts of the legendary. 

So for example. 

Gift of battle, shallow engament. So not really relevant. 

Raid part, substantial engagement. 

Hot meta part, substantial engagement. 

All HoT meta parts require less engagement than Gift of Battle, though...

 

Quote

So to you the amount of hot metas you need are shallow engagement? 

The crystaline ore is shallow engagement? 

Well, you can get like 10-12 ores on empty map just opening easily accessible pods, and a full meta can give you as much as 50-75 (the main problem is having enough machetes), so, yes?

 

Quote

Because I gave the gerent meta only as an example because I assumed that you'd agree based on your claim that they would be a problem. 

That's because, again, you assume things are binary and ignore that there are grades to everything.

Yes, gerent meta can be a problem... for the reason i mentioned at the beginning of this post. It does not turn it into heavy engagement with the content, though. Quite the opposite - the problem lies in it being available only for like 5-10 minutes every 2 hours.

 

Quote

The biggest sure, but not the only substantial one. 

Well, then let's say i strongly disagree.

 

Quote

I'm not claiming that just the chack gerent is compatible to the totality of raids. If that is what you thought I said I'm really  sorry for some weird miscommunication. I said that the hot parts are a substantial part of the set. 

And yet GoB is not, when it requires as much or more engagement than those?

 

Quote

Mention how this is completely false, I specifically gave counterproof based on claims we both made. You just ignored them for some reason. 

Because i did not want to redo all the discussion we've already had up to that point and explain in even more words why you understood wrong what i was saying. Because i am mostly certain you would again read far more in it that i'd write.

 

And no, i can;t just always add full explanations. If i were to do so, i'd have to write whole dissertations for every short sentence i intended to post. I don't have time or patience for that.

Edited August 11, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Sobx.1758]

4 hours ago, Dante.1763 said:

Yup. I can easily do raids. Cleared wing 1 and 3 so far this week already. Didnt enjoy it though.

80 more LI left.

You want the reward, you do the content. Sounds about right. 

 

3 hours ago, Dante.1763 said:

They are unenjoyable. The opposite of fun, and seriously detract from the enjoyment of the game. To me and lots of others, even if we can do them.

 

I do t4 fractals, i do dungeons, i solo champions, i work on achievments. That is SOME of the content i find fun.

Out of curiosity, how exactly do you enjoy t4 fractals, dungeons and soloing champions while at the same time not enjoy raids? What is this based on?

 

Edited August 11, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Dante.1763]

6 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

You want the reward, you do the content. Sounds about right.

Yes. I want the envoy armor, so i do raids, i do disagree with OP that it should be available outside of Raids.

 

In the past i may have thought different, but envoy armor should stay raid locked, im certain ive said that elsewhere in this thread, but one more time wont hurt!

 

What i do also think is that pve needs a set(with no unique skin, ala turning the existing ascended armor into legendary armor via whatever anet decides. <- an example.) That doesnt involve raids.

 

Not envoy armor. A generic, meh armor look that just offers the usability of legendary quality equipment.

 

I dont think you, or i, will ever agree on that though, and theres nothing wrong with that.

[Dante.1763]

13 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

 

 

Out of curiosity, how exactly do you enjoy t4 fractals, dungeons and soloing champions while at the same time not enjoy raids? What is this based on?

 

Didnt see your edit 😛

 

But in answer that question:

 

They dont need strict comps or really any dedicated anything(a few t4s do at least need some sort of support, but most can be done without.)

 

They have less players required.

 

Theres more room for error if you make a mistake.

 

They can be done at my own pace. I can get up and do things between each dungeon/t4 or champion.

 

Champions i can take my time, and im not racing against the clock to get a certain damage done in x time.

 

Also less dependant on other players doing mechanics too. For example: we had a player in our wing 1 clear last night who kept dropping bombs on group causing us to wipe 4 or 5 times. I do not like being affected by the mistakes of others to that degree that i feel my time is being wasted.

 

I *hope* that answers the question, can add more when i get home from work. Mobile is hard to type on 😕

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

14 hours ago, yann.1946 said:

Yes, but this statement does not apply to the conversation. We where not talking about a general solution, the conversation for me atleast was what designprinciples cause problems,

And that caveat when discussing what the problem is should ALWAYS be given. otherwise people just sprout bs next to eachother.  

Thats why i used the  /s. It was a joke 😛

understandable, it does not solve the problem of people feeling left out.

It is however a solution you can use if you wanna sway using the more base emotions.

 

Let makes this clear, you said that they where also a pain for non-raiders. that was your argument.

I personally do think the Hot part is substential enough to warrant consideration.

 

Well you can't really claim that unless you would argue that gift of battle requires substential gameplay, which would crumble all things you said earlier about the acceptability.

Also i dont classify them as LS trinkets, more OW trinkets or HOT LS/OW and POF LS/OW trinket tespectivly

Exactly my point, most people forget the amount of OW investment and thus associats the thing whit what bottlenecks them.

Notice however that that is a pretty substential selection bias at play here, and id rather avoid these. 

You called it that yourself. Also i call it hot armour because its a more acurate description. I dont have to goal to keep ow from a leg set. 

What i do think is that 

A)The envoy skin should be kept as is know.

B)pvp and WvW should get a uniques skin <- this can be interpreted as blocking ow set based on the fact that this seems unlickely, but thats not the point.

C)Whether i would have raided or not, i don't consider the present situation a problem. But i dont consider mode locking a problem in general. This is because we a base disagreement about what is good for the game.

D) i dont mind an open world set, i would prefer it to be a specific expansion set then though, a fractal set seems like a bad idea for example;

 

Edit: to be more precise for C), i feel like the potential negative experiences get outwayed by the potential positives.

From where i come , games offer an automatic  LFG system .

That way , i dont get discourage when i , a new player and for  a WHOLE WEEK  i see this LFG with highly expaectations .

And if i use cheats like the system that fakes KP-LI , i get kicked after 1 wipe , or if i cannot perfome 16k damage .

I cannot be a leader , because i dont know the mechanics to teach the other other people .

And after a week when i am in the ropes to create a thread on the forums , about "whoever made it get first and get a headstart ,he can go Raids" .

When i go to the forums , i see that its still debatable  among the community , and i will postopone  for a while till the company creates an auto-LFG or implant easy modes , or my other game creates new Raids after 3 months  .

 

Thisis  what happens in their mind of a new player that goes in new games .

 

You teached other players this way , and they will keep it that way even if you go in FF14  😛

Or when some1 have made th conclusion  that Raids cannot be welcomed him  and ask about the skins .... just stop ...beeing you ...... and draw out the conversation ... you had 6 years ...

Edited August 11, 2021 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[yann.1946]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

No? That's 10-15 events at most, each takes around 10 minutes maybe. The main problem is not forgetting about the timer and not missing the event by few minutes or so (and having to wait another 2 hours). Which does happen if you're engaged in something else.

Thats 2.5 hours alone, (ignoring the planning etc) then we still need the farming in other maps etc.

Quote

All HoT meta parts require less engagement than Gift of Battle, though...

Then i guess we just disagree, GOB requires around 8 hours semi afking in wvw, just need to capture some camps from time to time.

DS alone requires either some very specific knowledge on which spawn without the meta or doing a 1-2hour meta.

On top of that you need machettes which i guess you could get for free if you really waaited 100 days for the ley line convertor.

Quote

Well, you can get like 10-12 ores on empty map just opening easily accessible pods, and a full meta can give you as much as 50-75 (the main problem is having enough machetes), so, yes?

 

Quote

That's because, again, you assume things are binary and ignore that there are grades to everything.

Yes, gerent meta can be a problem... for the reason i mentioned at the beginning of this post. It does not turn it into heavy engagement with the content, though. Quite the opposite - the problem lies in it being available only for like 5-10 minutes every 2 hours.

i didnt, and honestly im one of the least black-white people you'll probably ever meet. The problem i perceived here is more that you expect me to put nuance in the things you say, but for some reason are not expecting you do the same to the things i say.

And then when i dont you spout bs over how i'm putting words in your mouth.

Quote

Well, then let's say i strongly disagree.

Then lets take this a different route, how would you suggest we find tresholds on what is substential engagement vs not.

Mayority opinion?

Some measure of time spend?

... 

Quote

And yet GoB is not, when it requires as much or more engagement than those?

I dont consider it more, based on my experience in how much time is spend in both of these factors. And i have an inbound bias in favor of HOT metas (as i really like them). If the GoB was more engagement i would expect id feel it  took longer as i dont really like wvw. (i dont really have a guild to do it with)

Quote

Because i did not want to redo all the discussion we've already had up to that point and explain in even more words why you understood wrong what i was saying. Because i am mostly certain you would again read far more in it that i'd write.

I quoted you, exactly. pointing out that ive only talked about what you wrote. As i said, this is NOT me reading more in the things you wrote. 

Quote

And no, i can;t just always add full explanations. If i were to do so, i'd have to write whole dissertations for every short sentence i intended to post. I don't have time or patience for that.

Then dont say people read more into what you wrote when they specificly talk about what you wrote without bothering to add own interpretation. 

Also the mayor things i "misunderstood"  where things which did not need a paragraph extra.

 

i'm having this converstation because i like to understand other people perspective, and why they think how they think. That does not really work when i trie to project how i think on your statements, which is why ive been mostly carefull to only talk about the words you have written nothing more.  

[yann.1946]

1 minute ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

From where i come , games offer an automatic  LFG system .

That way , i dont get discourage when i , a new player and for  a WHOLE WEEK  i see this LFG with highly expaectations .

And if i use cheats like the system that fakes KP-LI , i get kicked after 1 wipe , or if i cannot perfome 16k damage .

And after a week when i am in the ropes to create a thread on the forums , about "whoever made it get first and get a headstart ,he can go Raids" .

When i go to the forums , i see that its still debatable  among the community , and i will postopone  for a while till the company creates an auto-LFG or implant easy modes , or my other game creates new Raids after 3 months  .

 

Thisis  what happens in their mind of a new player that goes in new games .

 

You teached other players this way , and they will keep it that way even if you in other games 😛

They actually added a auto lfg system for strikes(sort of). I personally dont know how well it worked their.

 

[Dante.1763]

3 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

They actually added a auto lfg system for strikes(sort of). I personally dont know how well it worked their.

 

It worked well honestly with one or two exceptions being the Whisper of Jormag and Boneskinner. Those two bosses approach or even surpass some raid bosses in difficulty and thus need dedicated roles.

 

Which, could be fixed by by having it auto fill rolls per squad, which you assign yourself when go to enter.

 

I dont think it would work for raids though, unless they made them easier, and i doubt raiders want that.

Edited August 11, 2021 by Dante.1763

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

7 hours ago, yann.1946 said:

They actually added a auto lfg system for strikes(sort of). I personally dont know how well it worked their.

 

Boop , i tried to quote

Crystal Paladin.3871 :PPP

(can't touch that ? -mc hammer .

Scotty beam me up and give me lvl 2 clearance )

Edited August 11, 2021 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Touchme.1097]

Considering how raiding is evolving into the toxicity of Elitism I would be happy if Anet would stop introducing new Raids and introduce a new set of legendary armor earned playing Strikes Missions and PvE Meta.

I am making a significant change of mind here because I see too many people being alienated from raids due to unreasonable kill proofs, the lack of people available to run raid training and the increasing number of people giving up on Raids.

I really hate it when people get alienated from playing an MMO, especially when players who raid regularly are too lazy to run training sessions to introduce new players to Raids and the unreasonable requirements asked by Guilds and Pug groups.

Enough is enough. Elitism and alienation are not healthy things and shouldn't belong here.