Skill level of Guild wars 2 players.

[AliamRationem.5172]

Hard to say (and kinda stupid and pointless?).  This game has more complex and difficult skill rotations and it doesn't baby players as much with carry specs the way trinity games do.

 

I used to play WoW and tanking was great for the instant queues and ability to basically carry the group as long as healers push a button now and then.

[Beast Sos.1457]

15 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

The gcd does more than that. It directly limits your possible actions not only giving you time to pay attention but drastically reducing necessity for perfect muscle memory and memorization.

 

Think of it this way:

2.5s gcd equates to 24 apm.

 

GW2 meta rotations are anywhere between 50 and 120 apm (give or take).

 

Have you ever seen a Starcraft professional at play? Have you ever noticed how different the game play of one who pushes 300 apm, and someone who pushes 150 apm looks? Same thing here.

That's down to encounter design. It is absolutely possible to design a fight within a trinity system which is a wipe with just 1 mistake.

 

The main difference is in:

- player understanding of their role, or general understanding of what roles are there for

- similarity with other trinity games

- ease of encounter design for the developers because they know what classes and archetypes will be present

 

 

The improvement required for a player in FF14 is lower and of a different nature than it is in GW2.

 

This becomes very evident once you surpass the initial difficulty threshold in GW2, after which the game "clicks". From there on encounters in this game become rather easy. This "click" is never needed in FF14.

 

You are correct about players not getting challenged here, quite simply because it is very difficult to get this "click" across and most players would give up long before that. Now the developer are working and have been trying different approaches like the strike missions or DRMs. Unfortunately a large amount of players are happy with just skipping or ignoring content which challenges them.

 

 

They can be made much more difficult. GW2 could have by far the most difficult encounter among any MMORPG. The fact that even the simplistic encounters we have are already difficult is a proof to that.

 

Unfortunately this would make encounters near undo-able for any group of players who is not able to play perfectly at 100+ apm for an extended period of time.

Once you hit the high lvls in FF14 GCD becomes less of a limitation. There are a bunch of skills that are proc based. Increasing the apm substantially. Is it near the apm of gw2 combat? Probably not, but it is far above 24. 

 

My main gripe with gw2 is not that it doesn't have extremely difficult content. It's the fact that it doesn't promote the players to improve their gameplay. Whether that being through difficult content or fully flesh out tutorials, thats not the issue. It's the fact that getting better is not incentivized or promoted by any means. 

Edited August 16, 2021 by Beast Sos.1457

[Vayne.8563]

The OP has a point. I don't really like the way he phrased the point, but he has a point. I've said this before...the game doesn't do much to train people.

That's why I spend as much time as I can in game training people.  But not for raids. I'm not training people in the proper rotation, because my focus isn't raids. However, I am teaching people how to break bars, about line of sight, about combos. This stuff is woefully explained by the game itself.

Most players don't go to wikis. Most players don't research the game outside the game. They may look up the answer of how to get to a specific vista or something but they don't research mechanics. New players don't often understand break bars, or combos or line of sight, among quite a few other things, because the game doesn't teach them.

 

The game expects the community to do the teaching. And so many people solo, that doesn't always happen. I've lost track of the number of people in my guild who  soloed this game for years, who finally learned how to play. They had no idea of how much they didn't know while they were soloing. They were getting through open world content and story and thought I'm doing fine. But they were doing that stuff the hardest way possible, often banging their heads against a wall until they finally beat something.

 

But the tone of the OP and his responses doesn't really invite open discussion. I'm not sure how much it helps the game to point this out the way that the OP does.

[Noir.8561]

9 hours ago, Beast Sos.1457 said:

Is it just me, or does GW2 have one of the lower average skill level of players. I don't want to sound rude but its the truth, from my experience. I will say though, that its not the players fault. The game doesn't make you get good. I've been playing FF14 for the past month and the player base there are so much better at the game. They know how to execute their rotation, they know how to deal with the boss mechanics. It's bc the devs made them improve by the content added to the game. They have instanced content called trials. Its pretty a boss you go in with 7 other players and fight. The lvl 70-80 trials are harder than gw2 raids(from the ones I've done). Thats not including the extreme savage and ultimate versions. Just go into a raid training run and you'll see how unskilled players in gw2 are. 

 

The gw2 combat system is on a whole different lvl than ff14, in a good way. Its more intricate and more fun to play. The game just doesn't teach you how to play, making it so that the average skill lvl of players is laughable. Its very noticeable in pvp. 

 

I have a buddy who started playing with me about a month and a half ago. At this point, hes better than majority of players that have been playing for years. He goes into the pvp arena and will 1v1 people with legendary weapons/armor and beat them majority of the time. I know having legendary items don't necessarily mean youre good but it usually means you have been playing for a while. 

 

Maybe I'm of the unpopular opinion that Anet needs to address this issue. Maybe adding instanced tutorials to the game, that players can go in (similar in a way to the golem in the raid lobby) which teach different mechanics, how to execute combo fields, and the concept of rotations. In a game like Gw2 with so much build variety, teaching specific rotations might not work like other MMO's but just having a example of a rotation will get players to improve and look at the skill bar differently. 

The Devs should focus on the Boss mechanics  (more interesting stuff ,with each release , while they can damage  80% of your HP , forcing you to avoid any nearby slow ticking aoes .Either they will survive,die or some Healer  save their kitten) and leave aside any "you must do 10k dps to progress this boss"

 

Just remove the enrage mechanic . Personal stories like the Dragon from the Elf storry , where you fight it in the Tree throne , its hard and doesn't have enrage and none else to breath on your neck about doing it faster

 

Edit:

They should not over emphasize  on creating Bosses in Story that can be played  on LFG .

Some Open world bosses that will get farmed for 2 months , can  be used in the third/fourth Strike .

 

Or generally start  using overflow - limiting each group in 10-15 people for the encounter  and forget about easy instances  . We will be in the same situation as in the past .

Edited August 16, 2021 by Noir.8561

[Beast Sos.1457]

8 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

The OP has a point. I don't really like the way he phrased the point, but he has a point. I've said this before...the game doesn't do much to train people.

That's why I spend as much time as I can in game training people.  But not for raids. I'm not training people in the proper rotation, because my focus isn't raids. However, I am teaching people how to break bars, about line of sight, about combos. This stuff is woefully explained by the game itself.

Most players don't go to wikis. Most players don't research the game outside the game. They may look up the answer of how to get to a specific vista or something but they don't research mechanics. New players don't often understand break bars, or combos or line of sight, among quite a few other things, because the game doesn't teach them.

 

The game expects the community to do the teaching. And so many people solo, that doesn't always happen. I've lost track of the number of people in my guild who  soloed this game for years, who finally learned how to play. They had no idea of how much they didn't know while they were soloing. They were getting through open world content and story and thought I'm doing fine. But they were doing that stuff the hardest way possible, often banging their heads against a wall until they finally beat something.

 

But the tone of the OP and his responses doesn't really invite open discussion. I'm not sure how much it helps the game to point this out the way that the OP does.

Just because im not the best at being PC doesn't invalidate my point. I literally said its not the players fault for it. I don't know how else people want to to talk? Do I need to sugar coat every word I say? Thats ridiculous. I didn't attack anyone personally in the post. I didn't swear or insult Anet. All I said was the games average player has a low skill lvl and its bc Anet doesn't promote otherwise. 

[voltaicbore.8012]

1 hour ago, Beast Sos.1457 said:

I would think that the fact that the combat system in gw2 is so much more fluid/action oriented, that encounters would be able to be made more difficult than other games. Maybe im wrong about that though.

 

This is precisely why the game can't really teach people how to play.

 

First things first - I agree with the general gist of what you're getting at. The "bad" players I meet in GW2 seem, on average, much worse at the game than the bads I meet elsewhere. 

 

That said, the build freedom (combined with the fluidity and action orientation) basically makes effective in-game teaching impossible.

 

In build-locked games, if you aren't fully trained up in your passive and active skills, all that means is that you're playing a scuffed version of your own class.

 

But in GW2, which forces player choice, it becomes much harder to pin down a specific set of passive and active skills that define how a class is 'supposed' to be played. The raid god support scourge that spams barrier, might, cleanse, and rez-from-a-distance can stand alongside a dps reaper that spams shroud 1 to do max damage. How do you design teaching encounters to make sure both types of the same base class learn different lessons when the game has no reasonable way to enforce that that players build and play in just a few preset ways?

 

The answer is that you can't, unless you (1) start enforcing build decisions, or (2) accept that a large number of builds are going to be locked out of significant progression and content. I think both choices are absolutely terrible for GW2, and stand in direct opposition to what makes this game special.

 

Also, at least one prominent member of the FFXIV community disagrees with you that FFXIV teaches people how to play. From what I hear (in this video and from others who've played that game), the game itself doesn't teach you how to play. It just makes certain things much harder for you to do without having to learn your class from an outside source, like youtube guides.

 

I much prefer the current freedom that GW2 allows. I like a world where experienced raiders can beat a raid boss with 2 thieves and 6 mesmers by abusing the confusion condition, and other such shenanigans available to those who can make full use of the build freedom available. The FF method of just making things harder until you have to look outside the game to actually learn your class doesn't really add anything to GW2, imo.

Edited August 16, 2021 by voltaicbore.8012

[Asum.4960]

33 minutes ago, Witch of Doom.5739 said:

No, as I said, I wasn't offended at all.  I found the OP very funny.  It's hilarious when someone says something rude, then immediately follows it with "... not to be rude, but..."  Of course it's meant to be rude!  But I didn't take it personally, as the only one who affects my enjoyment of the game is me, and I'm having a great time.  Too bad the internet doesn't have a sarcasm font.  Reading between the lines is truly a lost art.

He wasn't being rude though. That the average GW2 player does about 10% of the damage of an high end player/what's possible is a fact acknowledged by the Devs, as well as supported by running a DPS meter in any Open World activity - where 3-5 players generally do up to 80% of the damage in meta events/bosses of 50 player Squads. 

 

It's neither a secret, nor is it unproblematic, as it severely limits what Anet can do in terms of content design and difficulty tuning. 

I don't see the act of discussing that as rude.

[Jilora.9524]

Maybe gw2 has more bads then ff14 who knows. The diff is ff14 gives you a tank a healer every time and the main thing from a healer spammable heals to cover you if you are bad so you might not notice. You also are forced to do their dungeons raids and strikes or w/e they call them I forget to progress and there's a gear check too. You can't do that content under geared. Gw2 has nothing like that because it's a casual game so comparing the 2 not useful.

I carried plenty through that game and was carried early on when I was clueless and you basically speed run all that content eventually so you don't even notice unless the tank and healer are both bad. Plus ff14 gives decent rewards to encourage vets to repeat content and carry newer players where in gw2 theres nothing like that so you get 2 bads in whisper you get mad and kick them where ff14 you get a bonus for that player doing content for the first time being in your group. 

Tons of times you gotta rez the same dudes over and over in their raids and the hard encounters but they get carried thru it. In gw2 some dude dies in fracs like 2 times in t4 he kicked party disbands.

 

 

[Beast Sos.1457]

6 minutes ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

 

This is precisely why the game can't really teach people how to play.

 

First things first - I agree with the general gist of what you're getting at. The "bad" players I meet in GW2 seem, on average, much worse at the game than the bads I meet elsewhere. 

 

That said, the build freedom (combined with the fluidity and action orientation) basically makes effective in-game teaching impossible.

 

In build-locked games, if you aren't fully trained up in your passive and active skills, all that means is that you're playing a scuffed version of your own class.

 

But in GW2, which forces player choice, it becomes much harder to pin down a specific set of passive and active skills that define how a class is 'supposed' to be played. The raid god support scourge that spams barrier, might, cleanse, and rez-from-a-distance can stand alongside a dps reaper that spams shroud 1 to do max damage. How do you design teaching encounters to make sure both types of the same base class learn different lessons when the game has no reasonable way to enforce that that players build and play in just a few preset ways?

 

The answer is that you can't, unless you (1) start enforcing build decisions, or (2) accept that a large number of builds are going to be locked out of significant progression and content. I think both choices are absolutely terrible for GW2, and stand in direct opposition to what makes this game special.

 

Also, at least one prominent member of the FFXIV community disagrees with you that FFXIV teaches people how to play. From what I hear (in this video and from others who've played that game), the game itself doesn't teach you how to play. It just makes certain things much harder for you to do without having to learn your class from an outside source, like youtube guides.

 

I much prefer the current freedom that GW2 allows. I like a world where experienced raiders can beat a raid boss with 2 thieves and 6 mesmers by abusing the confusion condition, and other such shenanigans available to those who can make full use of the build freedom available. The FF method of just making things harder until you have to look outside the game to actually learn your class doesn't really add anything to GW2, imo.

I fully agree when it comes to rotations and build diversity. Thats why I stated that " In a game like Gw2 with so much build variety, teaching specific rotations might not work like other MMO's but just having a example of a rotation will get players to improve and look at the skill bar differently" in the initial post. 

 

Maybe I shouldn't have brought up rotation as its not the main factor here. The main issue is dealing with mechanics. Thats where the average player seems to have issues. DPS doesn't matter as much as knowing how to deal with the mechanics of either a boss or other players. 

 

I understand that perspective and why you enjoy it more the way it is. I enjoy the freedom gw2 has as well. But I feel like both can be accomplished, having freedom while understanding the game on a mechanical lvl. But maybe I'm just asking for too much lol. 

[Beast Sos.1457]

3 minutes ago, Jilora.9524 said:

Maybe gw2 has more bads then ff14 who knows. The diff is ff14 gives you a tank a healer every time and the main thing from a healer spammable heals to cover you if you are bad so you might not notice. You also are forced to do their dungeons raids and strikes or w/e they call them I forget to progress and there's a gear check too. You can't do that content under geared. Gw2 has nothing like that because it's a casual game so comparing the 2 not useful.

I carried plenty through that game and was carried early on when I was clueless and you basically speed run all that content eventually so you don't even notice unless the tank and healer are both bad. Plus ff14 gives decent rewards to encourage vets to repeat content and carry newer players where in gw2 theres nothing like that so you get 2 bads in whisper you get mad and kick them where ff14 you get a bonus for that player doing content for the first time being in your group. 

Tons of times you gotta rez the same dudes over and over in their raids and the hard encounters but they get carried thru it. In gw2 some dude dies in fracs like 2 times in t4 he kicked party disbands.

 

 

That is true. A tank and healer do make it so that difficult content is tuned down by that alone. But what I noticed is, at higher lvls, most players learn quickly bc of past experiences with those mechanics. Theres a trials, seat of sacrifice. I went in that trials with a group that had 6 out of 8 new players. First attempt we failed it since majority barley knew the mechanics but on the second attempt we were able to clear it. the encounter is pretty difficult, especially as a BLM, but bc of previous encounters, it made it easier/faster for us to learn the fight. 

[Tails.9372]

1 hour ago, Beast Sos.1457 said:

I would think that the fact that the combat system in gw2 is so much more fluid/action oriented, that encounters would be able to be made more difficult than other games. Maybe im wrong about that though.

 

Compared to several other "action MMORPGs" GW2s combat system isn't even that "fluid and action oriented", quite the opposite. Long CDs and the rather troubling implementation of the initiative system make the combat feel rather sluggish which also puts a burden on encounter design.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

1 hour ago, Kalocin.5982 said:

GW2 and FFXIV have different gameplay elements with the former being a lot quicker paced. FFXIV also doesn't struggle with build problems. I play both and as a tank I've seen many, many bad players in FFXIV so don't put it on a throne. Right before a raid I remember having to teach a bard what their songs were lol. Putting gameplay aside, a lot of mechanics are more straightforward in FFXIV and are introduced slowly/individually through a ton of leveling dungeons

 

GW2 kind of lacks teaching mechanics in a staggered format like FFXIV. A good example is the green AoE meteors in Drakkar, the game doesn't really give you any indication before or even during the fight what they do. Do you stand in them, run away etc. In FFXIV you'd like have a giant floating arrow or something similar. The list can go on for quite awhile, and honestly they probably could do well to have more UI elements for mechanics. I'd even have an npc that can give "recommended" or "preset builds" in Lion's Arch. Not everyone is going to go look up builds online and what not. I can't imagine it'd hurt the game to have more assistance for newer/uninformed/returning players etc in the actual game itself.

 

Actually, that 'green circle' mechanic was taught in the second half of Bjora Marches map via the 'Cleanse the Ox Spirit Shrine' event. 

[alcopaul.2156]

gw2 players play the game at their own pace and for different reasons. there are basically 4 modes - PvE, sPvP, WvWvW and Fashion show/RP..

 

and when the devs says WvWvW is the cornerstone of the game, they mean that the game mode stays true to the name of the game even - Guild Wars.. coz technically, 3 map queue squads can be 3 different guilds fighting, at maxed (if say in a server, all are members of a guild) ... sPvP is 5 at maxed. but are all guilds in GW2 comprise of 5 members only? and can Guild Fights can occur in PvE? (no PlayerKilling so no..)..

 

log on, do your daily. rush the game till all the APs and the beyond level 80 numbers accumulate. I still have to play most of the living stories. i still have to get masteries from these living stories. but i can get my fix from doing dailies (WvWvW or PvE), World bosses and some typing exercises then i log off..