Skill level of Guild wars 2 players.

[Beast Sos.1457]

Is it just me, or does GW2 have one of the lower average skill level of players. I don't want to sound rude but its the truth, from my experience. I will say though, that its not the players fault. The game doesn't make you get good. I've been playing FF14 for the past month and the player base there are so much better at the game. They know how to execute their rotation, they know how to deal with the boss mechanics. It's bc the devs made them improve by the content added to the game. They have instanced content called trials. Its pretty a boss you go in with 7 other players and fight. The lvl 70-80 trials are harder than gw2 raids(from the ones I've done). Thats not including the extreme savage and ultimate versions. Just go into a raid training run and you'll see how unskilled players in gw2 are. 

 

The gw2 combat system is on a whole different lvl than ff14, in a good way. Its more intricate and more fun to play. The game just doesn't teach you how to play, making it so that the average skill lvl of players is laughable. Its very noticeable in pvp. 

 

I have a buddy who started playing with me about a month and a half ago. At this point, hes better than majority of players that have been playing for years. He goes into the pvp arena and will 1v1 people with legendary weapons/armor and beat them majority of the time. I know having legendary items don't necessarily mean youre good but it usually means you have been playing for a while. 

 

Maybe I'm of the unpopular opinion that Anet needs to address this issue. Maybe adding instanced tutorials to the game, that players can go in (similar in a way to the golem in the raid lobby) which teach different mechanics, how to execute combo fields, and the concept of rotations. In a game like Gw2 with so much build variety, teaching specific rotations might not work like other MMO's but just having a example of a rotation will get players to improve and look at the skill bar differently. 

[Stalkingwolf.6035]

imo the current skill level is bad. i'm playing this game since Beta and the amount of failed Meta events, that in the game for years, currently is really saddening. Failed Silverwaste, failed Tarir, Cant kill champions in events intime.

its not that they are bad, they dont do mechanics. just standing around and hope something else does it.

[Beast Sos.1457]

4 minutes ago, Stalkingwolf.6035 said:

imo the current skill level is bad. i'm playing this game since Beta and the amount of failed Meta events, that in the game for years, currently is really saddening. Failed Silverwaste, failed Tarir, Cant kill champions in events intime.

its not that they are bad, they dont do mechanics. just standing around and hope something else does it.

That maybe the case but from what I seen in raid training runs, players are just bad. They not only don't understand the combat mechanics, but boss mechanics as well. pvp is a big indicator imo. 

Edited August 16, 2021 by Beast Sos.1457

[Witch of Doom.5739]

We sure have different experiences.  I have fun interacting with players of all skill levels.  So some metas fail, who says they have to succeed every single time?  One thing I've noticed and appreciated since the announcement of the new elite skills is more people doing Hero Points and helping others on the tough ones.  Oh wait, guess I'm showing that I'm one of those "poorly-skilled" players since I can't do every single HP solo.  lol, I've been having such a good time for years guess I don't mind admitting it, although my physical issues (arthritis is a bear, just sayin') also contribute to my poor skills that are obviously so offensive.

 

It's a GAME.  A game is to have FUN, not to win all the time, according to the standards of some holier-than-thou.  And ANet needs to address this "issue," really?  Thanks for the best laugh I've had all day.

[Dante.1763]

Just now, Witch of Doom.5739 said:

We sure have different experiences.  I have fun interacting with players of all skill levels.  So some metas fail, who says they have to succeed every single time?  One thing I've noticed and appreciated since the announcement of the new elite skills is more people doing Hero Points and helping others on the tough ones.  Oh wait, guess I'm showing that I'm one of those "poorly-skilled" players since I can't do every single HP solo.  lol, I've been having such a good time for years guess I don't mind admitting it, although my physical issues (arthritis is a bear, just sayin') also contribute to my poor skills that are obviously so offensive.

 

It's a GAME.  A game is to have FUN, not to win all the time, according to the standards of some holier-than-thou.  And ANet needs to address this "issue," really?  Thanks for the best laugh I've had all day.

Right? And frankly..outside of very specific hours, early in the morning, i cant recall the last time i watched an Auric basin fail. Thats less to do with the players not knowing, and the lack of players on the maps in general.

[Beast Sos.1457]

1 minute ago, Witch of Doom.5739 said:

We sure have different experiences.  I have fun interacting with players of all skill levels.  So some metas fail, who says they have to succeed every single time?  One thing I've noticed and appreciated since the announcement of the new elite skills is more people doing Hero Points and helping others on the tough ones.  Oh wait, guess I'm showing that I'm one of those "poorly-skilled" players since I can't do every single HP solo.  lol, I've been having such a good time for years guess I don't mind admitting it, although my physical issues (arthritis is a bear, just sayin') also contribute to my poor skills that are obviously so offensive.

 

It's a GAME.  A game is to have FUN, not to win all the time, according to the standards of some holier-than-thou.  And ANet needs to address this "issue," really?  Thanks for the best laugh I've had all day.

This is a generalize topic. Why are you taking it personal? Theres no point in me discussing this with you if youre going to get offended. 

[Kalocin.5982]

GW2 and FFXIV have different gameplay elements with the former being a lot quicker paced. FFXIV also doesn't struggle with build problems. I play both and as a tank I've seen many, many bad players in FFXIV so don't put it on a throne. Right before a raid I remember having to teach a bard what their songs were lol. Putting gameplay aside, a lot of mechanics are more straightforward in FFXIV and are introduced slowly/individually through a ton of leveling dungeons

 

GW2 kind of lacks teaching mechanics in a staggered format like FFXIV. A good example is the green AoE meteors in Drakkar, the game doesn't really give you any indication before or even during the fight what they do. Do you stand in them, run away etc. In FFXIV you'd like have a giant floating arrow or something similar. The list can go on for quite awhile, and honestly they probably could do well to have more UI elements for mechanics. I'd even have an npc that can give "recommended" or "preset builds" in Lion's Arch. Not everyone is going to go look up builds online and what not. I can't imagine it'd hurt the game to have more assistance for newer/uninformed/returning players etc in the actual game itself.

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by Kalocin.5982

[Beast Sos.1457]

1 minute ago, Dante.1763 said:

Right? And frankly..outside of very specific hours, early in the morning, i cant recall the last time i watched an Auric basin fail. Thats less to do with the players not knowing, and the lack of players on the maps in general.

I clearly specified raids and pvp being the main content im speaking about. Most meta events don't take the whole group to be skilled to win. Just a couple leaders. 

[mindcircus.1506]

These kind of humblebrags never get old.

[Dante.1763]

16 minutes ago, Stalkingwolf.6035 said:

imo the current skill level is bad. i'm playing this game since Beta and the amount of failed Meta events, that in the game for years, currently is really saddening. Failed Silverwaste, failed Tarir, Cant kill champions in events intime.

its not that they are bad, they dont do mechanics. just standing around and hope something else does it.

 

4 minutes ago, Beast Sos.1457 said:

I clearly specified raids and pvp being the main content im speaking about. Most meta events don't take the whole group to be skilled to win. Just a couple leaders. 

Not you. The person above, still on topic for the thread though regardless.

ANET once gave numbers for how big the difference in damage an average play will do, and a good player. I doubt thats changed either way, and really..as mindcircus says it does come off as bragging a bit.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Dante.1763

[The Fear.3865]

Im not sure that is about content proposed by anet.

 

I think the game mechanics are really hard to master. Everything is fast, and relies a lot on reflex, reading and understanding what is going on. I think some people are overwhelmed by the complexity of the gameplay, and cant improve themselves, whereas some other players are more confident with it.

 

In gw2, I feel like we tend to reach a skill ceiling, and after that we struggle hard to progress.

[Beast Sos.1457]

3 minutes ago, Kalocin.5982 said:

GW2 and FFXIV have different gameplay elements with the former being a lot quicker paced. FFXIV also doesn't struggle with build problems. I play both and as a tank I've seen many, many bad players in FFXIV so don't put it on a throne. Right before a raid I remember having to teach a bard what their songs were lol. Putting gameplay aside, a lot of mechanics are more straightforward in FFXIV and are introduced slowly/individually through a ton of leveling dungeons

 

GW2 kind of lacks teaching mechanics in a staggered format like FFXIV. A good example is the green AoE meteors in Drakkar, the game doesn't really give you any indication before or even during the fight what they do. Do you stand in them, run away etc. In FFXIV you'd like have a giant floating arrow or something similar. The list can go on for quite awhile, and honestly they probably could do well to have more UI elements for mechanics

By the time you hit lvl 80 in FF14 you come across less bad players than in gw2. Thats the point. The game gradually teaches you the mechanics, adding new ones as you encounter higher lvl content. The game makes you get better over time. Gw2 doesn't. 

[Beast Sos.1457]

3 minutes ago, Dante.1763 said:

 

Not you. The person above, still on topic for the thread though regardless.

ANET once gave numbers for how big the difference in damage an average play will do, and a good player. I doubt thats changed either way, and really..as mindcircus says it does come off as bragging a bit.

I'm not saying im a great player. there is no bragging here, unless its im bragging for my friend? lol

The point im trying to make is that the game doesn't gradually make the players become better at it. 

[Khisanth.2948]

9 minutes ago, Kalocin.5982 said:

the game doesn't really give you any indication before or even during the fight what they do. Do you stand in them, run away etc.

unless you went and did the other content in the same map ...

[ArchonWing.9480]

There is more or less no incentive to get good in this game, as most content is easy, and you can get carried. People also get pissy if they are forced to try or if there's any implication (skins, rewards) that someone is better than them. Raids and pvp are but a tiny part of the game.

 

I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing as it's a game you can just pick up and play. It's also a game and not a job; nobody outside of the game cares about how good you are.  I guess the game does need to explain itself better in places.

 

And finally, this really shouldn't be an issue, as it only affects you in high end pve or competitive game modes , and you can always filter who you play with, and try to find friends/guilds that match your mindset and/or skill level.

 

Oh, and why are you expecting good players in "training" runs? If they knew boss mechanics, then they wouldn't have to be training.

Edited August 16, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[Cyninja.2954]

The most strait forward answer is:

You are comparing apples to oranges.

 

FF14 has:

- a 2.5 second gcd. That's in some cases half a rotation in GW2 and if not half, at the very least an opener with around 3-4 skills and it just goes on from there. Aka in this game you hit 3-4 skills for each 1 skill pressed in FF14

- far more straightforward classes and class design. The possible performance difference between a weak player and a strong player in FF14 is far smaller due to less ability to design bad builds

- has a trinity system in place which many players are far more used to

 

That is not so say I disagree, a LOT of players in this game barely scratch the surface of what their class can do. In part due to not being taught or required to learn in large chunks of this game (open world).

 

Simply put:

Players in FF14 have it far easier to not suck at the game since it is far more simplistic from an understanding standpoint or apm standpoint. The difficulty in FF14 comes from the hard encounter design which if one were to push encounters to that level here, only the very top 0.01% of players (or less) could even complete. Last I checked, not every FF14 player was running savage or ultimate raids, as such one could say all of those players "suck" at the game too.

 

All of which should be very evident to a skilled player.

 

TL;DR:

There is no magical "good" or "bad" playerbase in MMORPGs. Incompetence is distributed equally among playerbases, just in some cases it can be mitigated or hidden depending on how one looks or via intelligent game design (aka capping skill gaps etc, which is literally what a global cool down is for).

Edited August 16, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Beast Sos.1457]

Just now, ArchonWing.9480 said:

There is more or less no incentive to get good in this game, as most content is easy, and you can get carried. People also get pissy if they are forced to try or if there's any implication (skins, rewards) that someone is better than them.

 

I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing as it's a game you can just pick up and play. It's also a game and not a job; nobody outside of the game cares about how good you are.  I guess the game does need to explain itself better in places.

 

And finally, this really shouldn't be an issue, as it only affects you in high end pve or competitive game modes , and you can always filter who you play with, and try to find friends/guilds that match your mindset and/or skill level.

Clearly. People are getting pissy about this post alone. 

 

The issue comes down to the fact that the game doesn't encourage or teach players how to deal with certain situations/mechanics. You're right. It is more of a problem in the more competitive content. Cant really filter in pvp but I agree with that for raiding. 

[ArchonWing.9480]

5 minutes ago, Beast Sos.1457 said:

Clearly. People are getting pissy about this post alone. 

 

The issue comes down to the fact that the game doesn't encourage or teach players how to deal with certain situations/mechanics. You're right. It is more of a problem in the more competitive content. Cant really filter in pvp but I agree with that for raiding. 

 

I'm just explaining to you why skill level is low. Not really sure why you're getting so defensive.  I also failed to understand why you would surprise pikachu face at the low level of a training run.

 

The problem with PvP is there is too little activity and matchmaking is probably bad for you. Can't really do anything about it if there's not enough interest.

[Beast Sos.1457]

4 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

The most strait forward answer is:

You are comparing apples to oranges.

 

FF14 has:

- a 2.5 second gcd. That's in some cases half a rotation in GW2 and if not half, at the very least an opener with around 3-4 skills and it just goes on from there. Aka in this game you hit 3-4 skills for each 1 skill pressed in FF14

- far more straightforward classes and class design. The possible performance difference between a weak player and a strong player in FF14 is far smaller due to less ability to design bad builds

- has a trinity system in place which many players are far more used to

 

That is not so say I disagree, a LOT of players in this game barely scratch the surface of what their class can do. In part due to not being taught or required to learn in large chunks of this game (open world).

 

Simply put:

Players in FF14 have it far easier to not suck and the game since it is far more simplistic from an understanding standpoint or apm standpoint. The difficulty in FF14 comes from the hard encounter design which if one were to push encounters to that level here, only the very top 0.01% of players (or less) could even complete them. Last I checked, not every FF14 player was running savage or ultimate raids, as such one could say all of those players "suck" at the game too.

 

All of which should be very evident to a skilled player.

Very solid points. The GCD does make it so that players can pay more attention to the environment/mechanics. The trinity system does make it so there is more room for error during the encounters. 

 

Even the regular encounters are pretty difficult. Check out seat of sacrifice as a example if youd like. I wasn't saying if you don't do the difficult content you suck. My point is the game adds content that makes it so the player has to improve there gameplay. 

 

I would think that the fact that the combat system in gw2 is so much more fluid/action oriented, that encounters would be able to be made more difficult than other games. Maybe im wrong about that though.

[Beast Sos.1457]

2 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

 

I'm just explaining to you why skill level is low. Not really sure why you're getting so defensive.  I also failed to understand why you would surprise pikachu face at the low level of a training run.

 

The problem with PvP is there is too little activity and matchmaking is probably bad for you. Can't really do anything about it if there's not enough interest.

I wasn't offended with you. I was saying others are getting pissy at my post. Not you.

 

I'm more surprised at how bad they are. By level 80 you should at least be decent at the game. 2 hours on a easy boss is a bit overkill.  

Edited August 16, 2021 by Beast Sos.1457

[Tails.9372]

Well it's usually pretty bad but I don't know where "the average" for MMOs in total is so I can't say much in that regard. In general: if it requires more then running up to the enemies and "hit it until it dies" things get complicated as shown in content like Forging Steel (but then again having on average only 2-3 out of 10 players in a PuG knowing what they're doing seems pretty consistent with what I've seen from PuGs in other games). Furthermore, the vast majority of players engaging the "Clashing Champions" in Dragonstorm with their skyscale instead of their bunny is also rather telling.

 

 

28 minutes ago, Dante.1763 said:

the lack of players on the maps in general

 

The lack of players isn't much of a problem, I once did a AB with less than 10 players total. The main issues that lead to AB fails are AFKs in combination with the horrendous scaling.

 

[Tzarakiel.7490]

Personally I'd say there are 2 reasons the average skill level is low. The game is very casual friendly (not a bad thing) and rarely pressure players to get better. The game is also very bad at teaching players how it works.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Tzarakiel.7490
spelling error

[ArchonWing.9480]

11 minutes ago, Beast Sos.1457 said:

I wasn't offended with you. I was saying others are getting pissy at my post. Not you.

 

I'm more surprised at how bad they are. By level 80 you should at least be decent at the game. 2 hours on a easy boss a bit overkill.  

 

Hmm, I want to blame the level 80 boost. But I think that's not always the case. All leveling content really teaches you is how to move your character around.

 

The thing is traits and utilities are very badly balanced. Like you can have builds doing several times of another with similar survivability. In particular, because of all the damage modifiers compounding it makes someone almost crazy for not taking certain traits.

 

And the other problem is rotation does matter. (Yes the game takes skill) and even with the right build, you could still be doing half the damage, resulting in people doing like 1k dps or something as bad if they have both a bad rotation and build.

 

So when you look at open world where stuff dies in a few hits anyways and it doesn't matter if you lay dead 90% of the time during world bosses, the game just becomes a tagfest.

 

And like I said before, people get extremely upset if there are any more difficult rewards, so the game tends to head away from that. Example: nerfing open world content like Cursed Shore and HoT

 

I cannot help you with pvp. As Raids, you want to find groups on comms (most don't care if you speak; you can just type and listen), and you will be able to better filter out players more suited to your own skill level. I mean, you don't have to join their guild, but it just helps to make yourself known that they know you can press buttons.

 

Oh, and to add to that, I guess people's schedules often don't align for more organized play.

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[Kalocin.5982]

13 minutes ago, Khisanth.2948 said:

unless you went and did the other content in the same map ...

I'm just using it as a basic example, I'm sure there's better ones. My point is that FFXIV iterates on mechanics and uses them kind of like Mario does with levels. You'll learn something in a lvl 50 dungeon like stacking aoe markers, maybe in a 60 dungeon you have a stacking aoe marker but it's now combined with the turn away from the boss mechanic you had in an earlier fight too. Some bosses might just focus on having big tank busters etc.

 

It's just a different type of structure. GW2 could do a lot this stuff too but it's a lot more free form about what content you can do, and when you can do it. I'm not going to make a big list about it, there's enough angry people in this thread already and I'm not going to start fires. The gist version is that FFXIV utilizes reputation as a learning experience alongside slower gameplay which makes the skill levels a lot more evened out compared to GW2 where you might just skip whole episodes or expansions

[Cyninja.2954]

14 minutes ago, Beast Sos.1457 said:

Very solid points. The GCD does make it so that players can pay more attention to the environment/mechanics.

The gcd does more than that. It directly limits your possible actions not only giving you time to pay attention but drastically reducing necessity for perfect muscle memory and memorization.

 

Think of it this way:

2.5s gcd equates to 24 apm.

 

GW2 meta rotations are anywhere between 50 and 120 apm (give or take).

 

Have you ever seen a Starcraft professional at play? Have you ever noticed how different the game play of one who pushes 300 apm, and someone who pushes 150 apm looks? Same thing here.

Quote

The trinity system does make it so there is more room for error during the encounters. 

That's down to encounter design. It is absolutely possible to design a fight within a trinity system which is a wipe with just 1 mistake.

 

The main difference is in:

- player understanding of their role, or general understanding of what roles are there for

- similarity with other trinity games

- ease of encounter design for the developers because they know what classes and archetypes will be present

 

Quote

Even the regular encounters are pretty difficult. Check out seat of sacrifice as a example if youd like. I wasn't saying if you don't do the difficult content you suck. My point is the game adds content that makes it so the player has to improve there gameplay.

 

The improvement required for a player in FF14 is lower and of a different nature than it is in GW2.

 

This becomes very evident once you surpass the initial difficulty threshold in GW2, after which the game "clicks". From there on encounters in this game become rather easy. This "click" is never needed in FF14.

 

You are correct about players not getting challenged here, quite simply because it is very difficult to get this "click" across and most players would give up long before that. Now the developer are working and have been trying different approaches like the strike missions or DRMs. Unfortunately a large amount of players are happy with just skipping or ignoring content which challenges them.

 

Quote

I would think that the fact that the combat system in gw2 is so much more fluid/action oriented, that encounters would be able to be made more difficult than other games. Maybe im wrong about that though.

 

They can be made much more difficult. GW2 could have by far the most difficult encounter among any MMORPG. The fact that even the simplistic encounters we have are already difficult is a proof to that.

 

Unfortunately this would make encounters near undo-able for any group of players who is not able to play perfectly at 100+ apm for an extended period of time.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Cyninja.2954