Willbender f tier

[UNOwen.7132]

12 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

You actually can't escape from a Harbinger with this spec.

 

Can a thief escape from a Harbinger? Yes. Can a WB? No.

 

Mobility that only allows you to close distances is not the same as mobility that allows you to do either.

Yeah you can? Unless were assuming the harbinger has full life force and youre not gonna turn around to kill him. In which case, thief can't either. Harbinger actually outpaces Shortbow 5. But lifeforce limits it too much.

[Ragnar.4257]

5 minutes ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

Yeah you can? Unless were assuming the harbinger has full life force and youre not gonna turn around to kill him. In which case, thief can't either. Harbinger actually outpaces Shortbow 5. But lifeforce limits it too much.

No, you can't.

 

And thief doesn't need to out-distance the harbinger. It can escape with stealth.

 

Thats the difference

 

Mobility + Stealth > Mobility

[UNOwen.7132]

9 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

No, you can't.

 

And thief doesn't need to out-distance the harbinger. It can escape with stealth.

 

Thats the difference

 

Mobility + Stealth > Mobility

Yeah you can. And yes it does. It cannot escape with stealth, because stealth is too slow and predictable, and just means the Harbinger gets to kill you for free. Seriously, stealth must be the most overrated thing in this game by a wide margin. Its good out of combat, but its trash in combat. 

[RedAvenged.5217]

Wow good job guys we now have a glass core guard meta that can hit as hard as willbender 😒

[Ragnar.4257]

You can troll with unrealistic scenarios as much as you want, the results in actual PvP games speak for themselves.

 

Dead Willbenders left right and centre, not generating kills.

 

But then, you're the guy who contended that Holo was fine, at the height of the Nadesmith meta, so I don't know what I expected really.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Ragnar.4257

[UNOwen.7132]

24 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

You can troll with unrealistic scenarios as much as you want, the results in actual PvP games speak for themselves.

 

Dead Willbenders left right and centre, not generating kills.

 

But then, you're the guy who contended that Holo was fine, at the height of the Nadesmith meta, so I don't know what I expected really.

Yeah except the scenario is very realistic. Also, "people play roamer wrong and make it look a lot weaker than it is" is not the rebuttal you think it is. Spoiler: People did that with Power Rev too. 

 

No I didnt? I know its rough to not have anything to stand on, but dont make stuff up. The most I said was that Grenades were fine and that Holo was the issue. Which yes, is correct. Core Grenadier was fine, Holo was not.

[Ragnar.4257]

20 minutes ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

Yeah except the scenario is very realistic. Also, "people play roamer wrong and make it look a lot weaker than it is" is not the rebuttal you think it is. Spoiler: People did that with Power Rev too. 

 

No I didnt? I know its rough to not have anything to stand on, but dont make stuff up. The most I said was that Grenades were fine and that Holo was the issue. Which yes, is correct. Core Grenadier was fine, Holo was not.

Fact is, shiro-herald eats this spec alive. Basically everyone agrees with this, but nah, you can see something that nobody else in GW2 can see.

 

You don't respect my opinion, fine, but you don't need to. Go and speak to any collection of top tier players and see what they think about it. You'll get the same response.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Ragnar.4257

[Noir.8561]

11 hours ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Exactly what kind of thief build were you using to make it that distance in 18.5 seconds.

 

I've just tried it myself, and simply with shortbow+shadowstep I can do it in 13 seconds, while I also get a time of 19 seconds with WB. Didn't even use Steal.

 

I mean, what actual mobility does WB actually add? 2x 450 range dash, 1x 600 range teleport from the virtues, thats less than 2x Inflitrators Arrow. Equating JI to Shadowstep is being extremely generous, since the former requires a target, and the latter not only doesn't need a target, but can also be used to return, and cleanses to boot. None of the other mobility added on WB will actually be used in a real build. Maybe sword-offhand...... which is a 500 range dash. That's barely more than a daredevil dash.

 

Harbinger Shroud adds more mobility than this.

 

This is all as well ignoring that vertical mobility is significantly more valuable than horizontal. Soulbeast can also cover ridiculous distance over flat ground, but that doesn't make it compete with Thief.

 

And this is also ignoring...... what do you do when you arrive? A steal+backstab onto a target can secure a downed if timed properly. A WB porting in with swords will not generate a downed. It will generate laugther. Sword #4 struggles to connect even on stationary targets. And even if it does, with full glass build it doesn't hit more than 4.5k. Reminder, that's supposed to be the "big damage skill". A necro or a holo or w/e else can literally just stand still and trade blows with you, and they won't go below 80% HP before you're in downstate.

 

There's a reason why the mantra in every single game is "focus the WB" and its not that they're such a threat. It's that they're a free kill.

You dont need to use Shortbow as thief  .

Just do : https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dash_(trait_skill)  that offer in the in he same time damage reduction  and dosn need a trait to remove imobilize /slow/criple

 

And use Shortbow to traverse vertical locations to escape

 

Maybe we should introduce some damage reduction traits like Daredevil , it people doesnt want Willbender to do more dps ? (Healing Signet)

And give some love in Mesmers ? (Drummfire)

Edited August 18, 2021 by Noir.8561

[UNOwen.7132]

16 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Fact is, shiro-herald eats this spec alive. Basically everyone agrees with this, but nah, you can see something that nobody else in GW2 can see.

 

Duelist spec beats +1 spec. Again, not the zinger you thought it was. Shiro Herald also kills thief in a 1v1. You dont 1v1 with +1 spec.

 

16 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

You don't respect my opinion, fine, but you don't need to. Go and speak to any collection of top tier players and see what they think about it. You'll get the same response.

 

Sure, top tier players also share your incorrect idea that willbender doesnt do way more damage than thief. No they wont. The mobility is the key part. If it matches thieves, Willbender replaces thief. If not, its trickier to evaluate. Either way, people are evaluating it wrong.

[Ragnar.4257]

6 minutes ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

 

Duelist spec beats +1 spec. Again, not the zinger you thought it was. Shiro Herald also kills thief in a 1v1. You dont 1v1 with +1 spec.

 

 

Sure, top tier players also share your incorrect idea that willbender doesnt do way more damage than thief. No they wont. The mobility is the key part. If it matches thieves, Willbender replaces thief. If not, its trickier to evaluate. Either way, people are evaluating it wrong.

But shiro-herald also functions better as a +1.

 

And I didn't mean specifically about damage output. I meant the contention that WB will replace thief.

 

Nobody is going to pick WB over thief for decap/+1 duties.

 

Nobody is going to pick WB over Herald, or Nadesmith, or Renegade, or Reaper as a rotational DPS.

 

And certainly nobody is going to pick WB as a sidenoder/duelist.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Ragnar.4257

[Guirssane.7082]

In its current state noone is gonna pick willbender ever when a shiro or thief does a better job. I'm waiting for Mr. UNOwen to tag a game in plat1+ and do as good as a shiro/thief with WB. Have fun with that buddy. Stop being delusional. 

 

Post the video please I'm super curious okokty

[UNOwen.7132]

37 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

But shiro-herald also functions better as a +1.

 

For the purposes of mobility, no. Not even close.

 

37 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

And I didn't mean specifically about damage output. I meant the contention that WB will replace thief.

 

Nobody is going to pick WB over thief for decap/+1 duties.

 

If the mobility matches thief? You will 100% pick WB over thief. The only advantage thief might have is mobility. If that advantage does not exist, Willbender is just the strictly better pick.

[Ragnar.4257]

2 hours ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

First of all, this is just radiant greatsword replacing Valor with Willbender (youre a +1 build, you dont build defensive) or a DH build replacing DH with Willbender, second of all, even if you replaced Virtues with Valor (You shouldnt, youre a +1 build), it still does almost 7k. 

 

https://imgur.com/W2P6KIX

 

Hell, replace Radiance with Valor instead, and you still get 6k.

 

https://imgur.com/a/K1GRAzi

 

And I should note, you should be doing *neither* of these builds. Youre a +1 build, build like one.

 

Oh and you cant get backstab to 10k even with a meme build. For an out of nowhere surprise backstab, the best you can do is maybe 8.5k, but thats with bound, and at that point the builds issue isnt just that it dies, but that its damage multipliers wont even be active 95% of the time and you wont get that damage outside of test golems (you can get that damage on willbender in a real game tho). 

https://i.imgur.com/z9cejFj.jpg

 

10.3k backstab.

 

Is this build realistic? Doesn't matter apparently!

[UNOwen.7132]

1 minute ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

https://i.imgur.com/z9cejFj.jpg

 

10.3k backstab.

 

Is this build realistic? Doesn't matter apparently!

Did you get them below 50% to get Executioner to work? Because I specifically excluded that because you dont do that on +1. And it absolutely matters that the build is realistic. Thats why I used a realistic build. And you, here, did not. In fact, if I had to guess you stacked might to 25 too just to get this damage.

[Ragnar.4257]

4 minutes ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

Did you get them below 50% to get Executioner to work? Because I specifically excluded that because you dont do that on +1. And it absolutely matters that the build is realistic. Thats why I used a realistic build. And you, here, did not. In fact, if I had to guess you stacked might to 25 too just to get this damage.

Nope, no might.

 

And if Executioner is deemed unrealistic, then so is Unscathed Contender.

 

Edit: I apologise, THREE might, Wauw, so unrealistic.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Ragnar.4257

[RedAvenged.5217]

17 minutes ago, Guirssane.7082 said:

In its current state noone is gonna pick willbender ever when a shiro or thief does a better job. I'm waiting for Mr. UNOwen to tag a game in plat1+ and do as good as a shiro/thief with WB. Have fun with that buddy. Stop being delusional. 

 

Post the video please I'm super curious okokty

Dude I simply swapped over to harbinger and am playing a meme valk amulet build and I’m sure it x4 times as strong as your best willbender build

[UNOwen.7132]

Just now, Ragnar.4257 said:

Nope, no might.

 

Hard doubt.

 

Just now, Ragnar.4257 said:

And if Executioner is deemed unrealistic, then so is Unscathed Contender.

 

Executioner requires the enemy to be already low and for the damage to not matter. In a +1 setting its also not realisitc. Unscathed contender is. Though that being said ... I didnt actually have Aegis in those damage numbers. Whoops? Gotta check what the damage is like with Aegis lmao.

[Noir.8561]

7 hours ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Nope, no might.

 

And if Executioner is deemed unrealistic, then so is Unscathed Contender.

 

Edit: I apologise, THREE might, Wauw, so unrealistic.

They 25x might stacks , might  have disappeared before the Reveled debuf or  Assassin's Signet could end . Or the Poison cannot benefit from the  25x Mights  stacks .

(/joking)

Edited August 18, 2021 by Noir.8561

[ArthurDent.9538]

1 hour ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

 

Duelist spec beats +1 spec. Again, not the zinger you thought it was. Shiro Herald also kills thief in a 1v1. You dont 1v1 with +1 spec.

 

 

Sure, top tier players also share your incorrect idea that willbender doesnt do way more damage than thief. No they wont. The mobility is the key part. If it matches thieves, Willbender replaces thief. If not, its trickier to evaluate. Either way, people are evaluating it wrong.

How do you manage to die to shiro herald 1v1 on thief? Its such an easy matchup for for both standard dp dash and pd condi.

 

Also thief is light-years away from willbender in terms of survivability and ease with which it can deal damage, seriously thinking current willbender can compete with thief is hilarious.

[UNOwen.7132]

Just now, ArthurDent.9538 said:

How do you manage to die to shiro herald 1v1 on thief? Its such an easy matchup for for both standard dp dash and pd condi.

 

In what world is it an easy matchup? You literally dont have enough damage to even kill a shiro herald, and he can legit 3-shot you,

 

Just now, ArthurDent.9538 said:

Also thief is light-years away from willbender in terms of survivability and ease with which it can deal damage, seriously thinking current willbender can compete with thief is hilarious.

 

Yes, Thief is a lot lower in survivability and damage. Though you seem to think the wrong way around. Thieves survivability is trash, Guardian is still Guardian, with all the invuln, block and healing that come with it. And damage-wise, thief can at best get 5k backstabs and noodle autoattacks, while guardian GS2 alone can casually outdps the thief as a whole.

[Ragnar.4257]

6 minutes ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

 

In what world is it an easy matchup? You literally dont have enough damage to even kill a shiro herald, and he can legit 3-shot you,

 

 

Yes, Thief is a lot lower in survivability and damage. Though you seem to think the wrong way around. Thieves survivability is trash, Guardian is still Guardian, with all the invuln, block and healing that come with it. And damage-wise, thief can at best get 5k backstabs and noodle autoattacks, while guardian GS2 alone can casually outdps the thief as a whole.

This is so unbelieveably delusional.

 

What blocks and healing does Willbender have? They all got removed.

 

GS2 doesn't do good damage against human players that are moving. Against golems? Sure. But you'll literally never land an entire GS2 into someone unless someone else is pinning them to the floor for you. 5k damage you can guarantee to land is always better than 8k damage you can only land if enemy is literally afk. What's next on the OP list you've got for us.... hundred blades?

The reason thief has always been a good +1 has NEVER been because it has good dps benchmarks on golems. Its sustained damage is terrible. No, the reason is because it has excellent mechanics to consistently land that damage. WB with all its animation locks and roots, does not.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Ragnar.4257

[UNOwen.7132]

8 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

This is so unbelieveably delusional.

 

What blocks and healing does Willbender have? They all got removed.

 

... you know Guardian had most of those in their weapon and utility skills, right? Traits too. You still have Shelter, you still have Renewed Focus, you still have Zealots Defense, and you indeed still have the vit

 

8 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

 

GS2 doesn't do good damage against human players that are moving. Against golems? Sure. But you'll literally never land an entire GS2 into someone unless someone else is pinning them to the floor for you. 5k damage you can guarantee to land is always better than 8k damage you can only land if enemy is literally afk. What's next on the OP list you've got for us.... hundred blades?

 

Are you familiar with CC, in particular blinding blade? Of course it does good damage. Thats literally the whole idea behind the Radiant Greatsword build. If you TP on an enemy you can also make it work. And like, even if you dont get all of the hits, it will still consistently do much more damage than backstab. Also backstab is usually closer to 4.5k, 5k is on glass Weavers. And yknow, thief only has backstab. The Guardian still has a few more skills that do good damage.

 

8 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

The reason thief has always been a good +1 has NEVER been because it has good dps benchmarks on golems. Its sustained damage is terrible. No, the reason is because it has excellent mechanics to consistently land that damage. WB with all its animation locks and roots, does not.

 

No. The reason thief has always been a good +1 is that its mobility outpaces everyone else. Thats literally it. Thieves damage is the least relevant part. Thieves damage has been absolutely pathetic for quite some time, and its not as reliable as you seem to think (You have to actually backstab, which means you need to come from a specific angle or hope you predict their movement correctly. You can do it, but it requires setup). Hell, if all thief had was shortbow, with only shortbow damage, it would still be a good +1 class. Even though its damage would be extremely unreliable. Because its a +1. But, if Willbender matches thieves mobility? It will have better reliable damage, better burst, better sustained damage, better survivability, better CC, and no real downsides. Time will tell if that will be the case though.

[RedAvenged.5217]

So @UNOwen.7132 , so even if everyone here and all the people that play guard in pvp think willbender sucks, it is still good and they are just playing it wrong?

[Ragnar.4257]

43 minutes ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

 

... you know Guardian had most of those in their weapon and utility skills, right? Traits too. You still have Shelter, you still have Renewed Focus, you still have Zealots Defense, and you indeed still have the vit

 

 

Are you familiar with CC, in particular blinding blade? Of course it does good damage. Thats literally the whole idea behind the Radiant Greatsword build. If you TP on an enemy you can also make it work. And like, even if you dont get all of the hits, it will still consistently do much more damage than backstab. Also backstab is usually closer to 4.5k, 5k is on glass Weavers. And yknow, thief only has backstab. The Guardian still has a few more skills that do good damage.

 

 

No. The reason thief has always been a good +1 is that its mobility outpaces everyone else. Thats literally it. Thieves damage is the least relevant part. Thieves damage has been absolutely pathetic for quite some time, and its not as reliable as you seem to think (You have to actually backstab, which means you need to come from a specific angle or hope you predict their movement correctly. You can do it, but it requires setup). Hell, if all thief had was shortbow, with only shortbow damage, it would still be a good +1 class. Even though its damage would be extremely unreliable. Because its a +1. But, if Willbender matches thieves mobility? It will have better reliable damage, better burst, better sustained damage, better survivability, better CC, and no real downsides. Time will tell if that will be the case though.

Okay, so if we're just looking at weapon/utility skills, for every block on WB there's an evade on thief. Shelter? Withdraw. Renewed Focus? Daggerstorm. Focus? Sword #3 (of whichever variety). And what do you mean by "the vit" ? If you take away core virtues, the toolkit that guardian has for survival is really little better than thief. Why do you think WB has been renamed to "Feedbender" ? It isn't because it's super durable.

 

The majority of the last year, I have played core-GS at P2/3 level, zerker, with Zeal traits, and getting more than 5k on GS2 is really not common, even after a Binding Blade pull. People stunbreak that, because everyone has a stunbreak, and there's nothing else on guardian that would induce them to use it, so they always have it available. Or even if they don't, they'll get back up and dodge before the cast finishes. Not to mention that landing binding blade in the first place is not easy with how often it bugs out. Compare landing binding blade to landing steal..... just lol.

 

Think about if you're fighting a Reaper. Reaper goes into Reaper form, there's no way you can trade with it, so what do you do? Thief, you dodge, stealth-up and wait it out. On WB........ ????? You use your 450 range dash, which doesn't even get you out of range of reaper autos. You use your next 450 range dash, he follows with Deaths Charge. We gonna burn F3 as well to get away from reaper shroud? Now we've used 3 of our mobility cooldowns, one of which is a 50s one, and reaper can just drop out of shroud and 1-shot with axe/focus. Meanwhile, if we were a thief, we could have waited it out until shroud wore off, and re-engaged. You are severely under-representing the sustain capacity that stealth provides.

 

How many times has a thief been able to slip out of a fight and regen out of combat because of stealth? How many times has a thief been able to turn a losing 1v1 into a successful decap by juking in stealth? It's just as much a part of their survival as teleporting, arguably more so. Even if WB had the exact same teleport capacity as thief, by not having stealth it is automatically less survivable. and CANNOT roam or decap to anywhere near the same degree. 1 or 2 blocks aren't going to make up for that. If it could, then Bandit's Defence would be meta. It isn't. Says alot doesn't it?

Edited August 19, 2021 by Ragnar.4257

[UNOwen.7132]

22 minutes ago, RedAvenged.5217 said:

So @UNOwen.7132 , so even if everyone here and all the people that play guard in pvp think willbender sucks, it is still good and they are just playing it wrong?

Who knows? What Im saying is that people are clearly judging it based on the wrong things, and it is quite reminiscent of people judging Revenant either initially or after a nerf (I dont recall which of the 2 it was) where pople were saying "Oh Revenant sucks in PvP". It was the best class. By a pretty wide margin. People just judged it wrong.