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More (human) gods? [Spoilers LW S3+PoF]

Ninutra.7926Ninutra.7926 Member ✭✭
edited March 30, 2020 in Lore

There have been some questions streaming through my mind when it comes to gods, or divines in the world of Tyria in general. This is for the fun of speculation only!

According to Eternal Alchemy, beings such as the human Gods and Spirits of the Wild are only powerful entities, not creators of the world in any way. In that case, they are inhabitants of this world like anyone, albeit ones with much higher degree of power. If so, then:

  • Are gods a separate race? One that comes with naturally high magic concentration/powers? Were some of them divine from birth, or existed since forever, while the likes of Kormir and Grenth are ascended humans or... half-breeds, in Grenth's case? Are gods simply powerful humans that can just spawn out of thin air? Or did they all ascend at some point in time, but maybe so long ago that nobody could possibly remember? I personally lean towards the latter.

  • If it is possible to ascend, how does one acquire such power? Aside from sucking up another dying god, that is. Could one perhaps take in a large power pool from any source and just become a god? If so, then how many "gods" could there be in the Mists, if not all human(oids) came to Tyria? And potentially, how many can be created in Tyria itself? Can one take up magic over the course of a long life, instead of all at once? Could a long-lived race perhaps develop into something with similar power level to the Six? (let's just entertain the thought that Dragon's won't eat you, nor your magic)

  • Are humans specifically sensitive to magic and taking it up, because of their direct connection with their gods and the possibility to ascend? (also looking at the fact that they hail from the Mists) Could a charr or a norn, for example, strive to achieve such power? (and I am talking a situation more akin to what made Kormir a goddess, not the kind of "ascension" going on in Elon Riverlands, just to clarify)

  • Iirc, Balthazar did not use a lot of his powers between coming back to Tyria and eating the Bloodstone; all the visual tricks have been done by Lyssa's Mirror. He relied on diplomacy, rather than strength. He was a shell of his former self, and yet, he sponged in the power of the Stone easily, while everyone else either died or went crazy. Was his body somehow different from your regular human? Easier to house magic in, resilient to side effects? Again, back to the first point, is it a predisposition one is born with, or is it developed? (now that I think of Balthazar's body, which disappeared during his death, was itself only/mostly magic? If so, is it held in this state of matter by the strength of will, since it has a tendency to spread out? Do powerful beings possess some sort of gravitational-magical pull that keeps it together?)

  • If it is... developable, I am tempted to say there should be "deity academies" which teach people how to harness enough power to become gods, but that would probably be considered sacrilege.

It's a bit clunky post, correct me if I've forgotten something (it's late over here when I was writing this). Otherwise, what do you guys think? Would gladly read any theories that you may have.

Phlunt is my spirit animal

<1

Comments

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 31, 2020

    There was a lore text by some dude which does mention theories that the 6 Gods aren't naturally "gods" but any human who could access and control and contain extraordinary amounts of magic can ascend and become a god. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Six:_Being_or_Playing_God

    Human Gods were essentially divine aliens which brought humans to Tyria, so I want to imagine that humans are a species that while mundane and seemingly "normal" in all respects, each have the potential to harness enough magic if allowed to and become godlike beings.

    Asura may have a part to play in the natural order of things through the Eternal Alchemy.
    Charr have no gods.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 31, 2020

    Thanks for posting, mate. There are plenty of more knowledgeable people lurking on these forums, but this topic always piques my curiousity.

    @Ninutra.7926 said:
    There have been some questions streaming through my mind when it comes to gods, or divines in the world of Tyria in general. This is for the fun of speculation only!

    According to Eternal Alchemy, beings such as the human Gods and Spirits of the Wild are only powerful entities, not creators of the world in any way. In that case, they are inhabitants of this world like anyone, albeit ones with much higher degree of power. If so, then:

    • Are gods a separate race? One that comes with naturally high magic concentration/powers? Were some of them divine from birth, or existed since forever, while the likes of Kormir and Grenth are ascended humans or... half-breeds, in Grenth's case? Are gods simply powerful humans that can just spawn out of thin air? Or did they all ascend at some point in time, but maybe so long ago that nobody could possibly remember? I personally lean towards the latter.

    It's possible that the gods are a separate race. We tend to think of those that have ascended to become gods, such as Grenth and Kormir, as they were: human. But their incarnate form, once they ascend, may simply be a way for them to maintain a positive, personal relationship with whatever host race they inhabit or feed on.

    • If it is possible to ascend, how does one acquire such power? Aside from sucking up another dying god, that is. Could one perhaps take in a large power pool from any source and just become a god? If so, then how many "gods" could there be in the Mists, if not all human(oids) came to Tyria? And potentially, how many can be created in Tyria itself? Can one take up magic over the course of a long life, instead of all at once? Could a long-lived race perhaps develop into something with similar power level to the Six? (let's just entertain the thought that Dragon's won't eat you, nor your magic)

    Would I be correct in thinking that you fall into the "Humans came to Tyria from another world" category? I think they are native to Tyria. But let's put our tinfoil hats on, shall we? I believe that the race we refer to as "gods" use worlds within the Mists to reproduce. They have incredible influence over these worlds and can affect the evolutionary path of creatures living upon them. The "gods" walk the evolutionary path with lesser creatures until such time as said creatures have developed sufficiently advanced biology that members from among them can be harvested to form vessels for the "gods". In theory, this evolutionary development would mean that, yes, any suitable race could achieve godhood if they lived long enough. In fact, long-life may be one of several criteria through which we can identify races chosen by the gods.

    • Are humans specifically sensitive to magic and taking it up, because of their direct connection with their gods and the possibility to ascend? (also looking at the fact that they hail from the Mists) Could a charr or a norn, for example, strive to achieve such power? (and I am talking a situation more akin to what made Kormir a goddess, not the kind of "ascension" going on in Elon Riverlands, just to clarify)

    Please see my former answer. I'm not sure why you're downplaying the process of Ascension in Elona. The failure to ascend, in my opinion, is at the core of a deeper mystery within the Guild Wars franchise.

    As to whether humans are more sensitive to magic? In my opinion, yes, they are. Think of humanity as the gods' ideal host race. A charr or norn is unlikely to ascend into godhood as a charr or a norn. In other words, the process of ascension for any member of these races would, by necessity, require them to become human, or at least as close to human as realistically possible. I believe that the process of evolution, culminating in expressions of sentient life like humanity, is the means by which the gods foster a candidate race into godhood.

    • Iirc, Balthazar did not use a lot of his powers between coming back to Tyria and eating the Bloodstone; all the visual tricks have been done by Lyssa's Mirror. He relied on diplomacy, rather than strength. He was a shell of his former self, and yet, he sponged in the power of the Stone easily, while everyone else either died or went crazy. Was his body somehow different from your regular human? Easier to house magic in, resilient to side effects? Again, back to the first point, is it a predisposition one is born with, or is it developed? (now that I think of Balthazar's body, which disappeared during his death, was itself only/mostly magic? If so, is it held in this state of matter by the strength of will, since it has a tendency to spread out? Do powerful beings possess some sort of gravitational-magical pull that keeps it together?)

    We don't really know how Balthazar fared prior to his return to Tyria. To compare his last outing in Path of Fire, with his previous exploits, seems like a stretch too far. There is no way of knowing if he was more diplomatic or more aggressive when he first took humanoid form on Tyria.

    Your suggestion that the gods may be a separate race helps us to understand why everyone else went crazy when the Bloodstone exploded. Balthazar, as a member of the gods' race, is capable of metabolizing magic in a way that lesser beings, even magically-adept humans, cannot.

    When you say that Balthazar's body is easier to house magic in, think about what your idea means: humans have been chosen by the gods to be their current host race. It stands to reason that the gods would ensure that humans evolve to become the most magically-adept race. In other words, Balthazar's humanity synergized well with his divinity.

    • If it is... developable, I am tempted to say there should be "deity academies" which teach people how to harness enough power to become gods, but that would probably be considered sacrilege.

    It's a bit clunky post, correct me if I've forgotten something (it's late over here when I was writing this). Otherwise, what do you guys think? Would gladly read any theories that you may have.

    It's not a clunky post. Plenty of other players have asked questions akin to these. I encourage you to keep exploring this topic and to form opinions of your own. Diversity of opinion is good for this forum :)

  • Dustfinger.9510Dustfinger.9510 Member ✭✭
    edited March 31, 2020

    @Ninutra.7926 said:
    There have been some questions streaming through my mind when it comes to gods, or divines in the world of Tyria in general. This is for the fun of speculation only!

    According to Eternal Alchemy, beings such as the human Gods and Spirits of the Wild are only powerful entities, not creators of the world in any way. In that case, they are inhabitants of this world like anyone, albeit ones with much higher degree of power. If so, then:

    When it comes to pantheons from around our world, there are a lot of gods that have nothing to do with creating the world. Only that they are powerful beings that generally hold the most sway over nature, fortune or some other substantive human ideal.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    A lot of it is basically 'we don't know', although in my mind, references to humans coming from somewhere else along with the gods are common enough to be persuasive.

    It's certainly a common opinion in this forum. Do you have any references to help us ascertain whether humans are natives or immigrants?

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    A lot of it is basically 'we don't know', although in my mind, references to humans coming from somewhere else along with the gods are common enough to be persuasive.

    It's certainly a common opinion in this forum. Do you have any references to help us ascertain whether humans are natives or immigrants?

    The strongest ingame off the top of my head is the Orrian History Scrolls. I think it's been said more blatently in some out-of-game sources, but they're often hard (and in some cases impossible) to track down these days.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    A lot of it is basically 'we don't know', although in my mind, references to humans coming from somewhere else along with the gods are common enough to be persuasive.

    It's certainly a common opinion in this forum. Do you have any references to help us ascertain whether humans are natives or immigrants?

    The strongest ingame off the top of my head is the Orrian History Scrolls. I think it's been said more blatently in some out-of-game sources, but they're often hard (and in some cases impossible) to track down these days.

    Yeah, that seems to be the go-to source. It's at odds with the Guild Wars Prophecies Manuscripts, though.

    I don't know what to make of the whole "Humans are aliens on Tyria" thing these days. I held that belief largely because others here do, long before I formed my own opinion.

    I have nothing against the idea, but the in-game sources aren't clear about the origins of humanity and the OHS is open to interpretation.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    A lot of it is basically 'we don't know', although in my mind, references to humans coming from somewhere else along with the gods are common enough to be persuasive.

    It's certainly a common opinion in this forum. Do you have any references to help us ascertain whether humans are natives or immigrants?

    The strongest ingame off the top of my head is the Orrian History Scrolls. I think it's been said more blatently in some out-of-game sources, but they're often hard (and in some cases impossible) to track down these days.

    Yeah, that seems to be the go-to source. It's at odds with the Guild Wars Prophecies Manuscripts, though.

    I don't know what to make of the whole "Humans are aliens on Tyria" thing these days. I held that belief largely because others here do, long before I formed my own opinion.

    I have nothing against the idea, but the in-game sources aren't clear about the origins of humanity and the OHS is open to interpretation.

    Deliberately so - ArenaNet has stated that the Prophecies Manuscripts were an unreliable narrator, and the truth is that humans came from elsewhere. Even in the Manuscripts, it's just the word "birthed" that implies being native - what's actually stated still indicates that humans were newcomers that tipped the balance that had previously existed on Tyria.

    There's a lot of other stuff in the Prophecies Manuscripts that have proven to be... not precisely untrue, but only true from a certain point of view, just like the claim that Darth Vader killed Anakin Skywalker.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They are mist beings but other than that we don't fully know what they are or where they came from.

    We know humans can become Gods, as we've seen with Komir and Grenth, the latter being a half human demigod.
    We also know Gods can fall and be stripped of their powers as we've seen with Abaddon, Dhuum and more recently Balthazar.
    We also know that when Balthazar arrived on Tyria he carried the severed head of his father and he also has a half brother Menzies.
    We also know that the Gods are not the same age either and that Melandru is the oldest of them while Kormir is the youngest.

    This information alone is enough to speculate that the Gods much like the Elder Dragons, may have all at one time been lesser beings who have achieved and ascended into incredible levels of power.

    For the Gods specifically there is a good chance that they were all either human at one time or like Grenth, demigods.. having one human parent and one divine parent.
    If I had to guess I would probably speculate the latter as it would just make more sense.
    From what we know of Balthazar I would expect he ascended after de-throning his father who may have been the previous God of War.. which would make Balthazar and Menzies both Demigods..
    This is pure speculation though as no official lore goes into much detail prior to the arrival of the Six or their origins.
    Suffice to say their origins are just as mysterious as the Elder Dragons and we'll probably never know for sure how old they are or how they came to be Gods, with exception to Grenth and Kormir of course which we do know for a fact became Gods after defeating a previous one.

    @Ninutra.7926 said:

    • Are humans specifically sensitive to magic and taking it up, because of their direct connection with their gods and the possibility to ascend? (also looking at the fact that they hail from the Mists) Could a charr or a norn, for example, strive to achieve such power? (and I am talking a situation more akin to what made Kormir a goddess, not the kind of "ascension" going on in Elon Riverlands, just to clarify)

    I don't think humans are any more sensitive to magic than any other race.
    If a human can become a God then I would expect that it's possible for other races to do the same if they had the same blessing Kormir did.
    That said though the only way we know this can be done is through the defeat of a sitting God, Grenth became a God after defeating but not killing Dhuum.
    Or by killing a fallen God with some kind of blessing from the Six to absorb it's power, Which is how Kormir became a God after killing Abaddon.

    In theory, if we had that same blessing Kormir did we could have potentially done the same thing when we killed Balthazar and become Gods ourselves.
    This obviously didn't happen though and his power largely got absorbed by Aruine and Kralkatorrik.. I am curious if we'll still see something come out of this in future.

    I have toyed with an idea of Rytlock eventually becoming the new God of War as it would fit well with the whole Revenant Mists link, not to mention he carries Sohothin which was originally one of Balthazars personal Swords (Yep old Balthy had a duel Swords build before jumping on the Greatsword meta XD)
    Likewise Logan could also be a candidate if the Magdaer storyline every actually gets a payoff in Gw2.
    Last we know is Eir retrieved Magdaer from Ascalon and planned to have the sword reforged and gifted to Logan to help bring Logan and Rytlock closer together.. although this never happened and Magdaer has been completely absent from the game ever since.
    Really it's little more than just random thoughts for personal amusement though, I doubt we'll see anything like this happen in the game but who knows what's gonna happen in the coming years.
    Most of us had lost faith in Cantha ever coming after all these years but now it actually is :D
    Very welcome surprise that was.

    • Iirc, Balthazar did not use a lot of his powers between coming back to Tyria and eating the Bloodstone; all the visual tricks have been done by Lyssa's Mirror. He relied on diplomacy, rather than strength. He was a shell of his former self, and yet, he sponged in the power of the Stone easily, while everyone else either died or went crazy. Was his body somehow different from your regular human? Easier to house magic in, resilient to side effects? Again, back to the first point, is it a predisposition one is born with, or is it developed? (now that I think of Balthazar's body, which disappeared during his death, was itself only/mostly magic? If so, is it held in this state of matter by the strength of will, since it has a tendency to spread out? Do powerful beings possess some sort of gravitational-magical pull that keeps it together?)

    This is because he was still a God.. he was depowered and fallen.. locked away in the mists like Abaddon was but both of them were still Gods.
    Killing Gods much like killing Elder Dragons has very dangerous consequences, even fallen Gods unleash massive amounts of energy upon their deaths.
    Kormir spared us this by absorbing Abaddons power and likewise Balthazars power got absorbed by Aurine and Kralkatorrik.

    If Kralkatorrik and Aurine had not been around to absorb Balthazars power then Elona would probably look like a giant crater and we'd have come down with a pretty nasty case of total annihilation.

  • Thanks for the answers!

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    It's possible that the gods are a separate race. We tend to think of those that have ascended to become gods, such as Grenth and Kormir, as they were: human. But their incarnate form, once they ascend, may simply be a way for them to maintain a positive, personal relationship with whatever host race they inhabit or feed on.

    So basically they become untouchable politicians? Oh, my favourite kind.

    Please see my former answer. I'm not sure why you're downplaying the process of Ascension in Elona. The failure to ascend, in my opinion, is at the core of a deeper mystery within the Guild Wars franchise.

    And this is interesting. I am not very familiar with the details of the original Guild Wars, part of the reason why I'm posting here, to find answers. From what I gathered, the mechanical aspects of Ascension made you more powerful, but the goal was never to become as a god, nor to be considered one of them. That seems more like a false hope an "ascendee" would have, or something it was... advertised as. I would imagine many people involved had improbably high expectations towards the outcome. Whether that's true or not, that's not the point. I was focusing on Kormir's case, because there you had a direct, visible source of godly magic, that a proper, visible outcome, and that counts more as a good example in my book, not a religious movement which tried to ascend through more, shall we say, artificial means, with no "officially godly" result to speak of.

    We don't really know how Balthazar fared prior to his return to Tyria. To compare his last outing in Path of Fire, with his previous exploits, seems like a stretch too far. There is no way of knowing if he was more diplomatic or more aggressive when he first took humanoid form on Tyria.

    Not what I was going towards. The sole fact that he disguised himself as Lazarus and patiently plotted to get to the Bloodstone before revealing himself, that is playing defensively - that's my focus. Hiding himself behind the illusion made me think he didn't have the full extent of his powers, and that was true. So, how much magic could one have, and still be considered a god? It's the situation of an empty battery; you might have barely an power left, but still be fully able to take in power easily, if given to you. And that's just helps to illustrate the point of gods being either evolved humans or a separate species entirely, that's the idea of body that's easier to house magic in:

    Your suggestion that the gods may be a separate race helps us to understand why everyone else went crazy when the Bloodstone exploded. Balthazar, as a member of the gods' race, is capable of metabolizing magic in a way that lesser beings, even magically-adept humans, cannot.

    :-)

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    It's certainly a common opinion in this forum. Do you have any references to help us ascertain whether humans are natives or immigrants?

    The strongest ingame off the top of my head is the Orrian History Scrolls. I think it's been said more blatently in some out-of-game sources, but they're often hard (and in some cases impossible) to track down these days.

    Also my main supporting source for the immigration story.

    So, having a background from the Mists, and direct connection to their deities, it stands to reason that humans are likely to ascend if given the chance.
    But then, what stands in the way of another race to also transcend into the god "species"? Let's say an asura wanted to become a god, and lead his krewe through the Mists into another world, to investigate the psychological effects of immigration into a different dimension (would make a great research paper). It's probably only a matter of time until that happens. If there are physical limitations of a body, and they would HAVE to become humans, then the Inquest is already on it, probably. There is probably no limit that ambition won't break.
    So if there is a race that will achieve godhood, even if it were to fail many times, it would probably be asura.

    Now, I only wonder what is the point at all in becoming a god. It was mentioned that gods may "feed off" their connected race, but then it would make no sense for the gods to leave this world, unless they had a specific intention of finding or making a new race with which to be dependent on. Still, I don't believe in the similarities between them and dragons. As far as I imagine, the gods don't have a life purpose (aside from playing their part in the Shakespearian play), and have a free will. With the exception of the rouge gods, they all seem to exhibit some sort of compassion for Tyria and their chosen race, and to me, their exodus cemented that belief.

    Now to wonder, whether an asuran god would be capable of putting own ambitions aside and becoming at least somewhat merciful...

    Phlunt is my spirit animal

  • @Teratus.2859 said:

    I don't think humans are any more sensitive to magic than any other race.
    If a human can become a God then I would expect that it's possible for other races to do the same if they had the same blessing Kormir did.

    This is the sort of mechanic I wanted to know about. But if it can only be bestowed, now with the gods gone, I can't imagine we'd receive it. But this is also a chicken and the egg scenario. Who was the first to achieve godly power? If it could only be bestowed by another god, then how did they became a god? Etc. That's why I lean slightly to the natural argument of one simply being able to accumulate this sort of energy throughout one's life.

    In theory, if we had that same blessing Kormir did we could have potentially done the same thing when we killed Balthazar and become Gods ourselves.
    This obviously didn't happen though and his power largely got absorbed by Aruine and Kralkatorrik.. I am curious if we'll still see something come out of this in future.

    It would be great to be a god, but imagine the headlines. "God Commander commanding an Elder Dragon", "The Divine and the Dragon, aka the World's End". I also don't imagine our friends would be very much into it.

    I have toyed with an idea of Rytlock eventually becoming the new God of War as it would fit well with the whole Revenant Mists link, not to mention he carries Sohothin which was originally one of Balthazars personal Swords (Yep old Balthy had a duel Swords build before jumping on the Greatsword meta XD)
    Likewise Logan could also be a candidate if the Magdaer storyline every actually gets a payoff in Gw2.

    Now pray that these two won't ever have disagreements again...

    Phlunt is my spirit animal

  • Well we know that none of the gods are native to Tyria. They come from somewhere in the mists. So I was thinking, what if every god came from somewhere else and they just met each other in the mists to start some kind of group project? We already know that every god has his/her own realm. We have seen the underworld, the fissure of woe and the realm or torment. What if these realms are actually their home worlds?

    What gave me this idea is the fact that Kormir's library slowly started reverting into the realm of torment after her departure even though Abaddon is long dead. Therefore that shape can't be influenced by Abaddon, but must be the realm's natural state. This would also explain why both Grenth and Balthasar were struggling with their own realms, since they both rose to godhood and inherited their realms after defeating a sitting god. It would seem that shaping a world to their liking, even for a god, takes a lot of effort. Which might be one of the reasons for their Tyrian group project. After playing a certain fractal, we also know that there are other beings in the mists that would qualify as gods. At least they have the power even if they are not part of the group.

    As for the question whether anyone can become a god: Well yes, but actually no.
    The known and confirmed method: Defeating a god and absorbing his power
    While the result of this process is a new god, I can't really call it "becoming a god". Magic is not just some form of energy, it has specific properties and concepts attached to it. We've seen this when Zhaitan died and the other elder dragons started turning the dead into their minions. Every god has magic with special properties. Abaddon for example was the god of knowledge and water. Kormir adopted the knowledge part, put a little twist on it and became the goddes of truth. Just like Kormir put her twist on Abaddon's magic however, the reverse is also true and the magic put a little twist on Kormir. Therefore it is difficult to decide whether the human Kormir and the goddes Kormir are the same person. We still don't know what happened to Abaddon's water magic though. There might be some unknown god of water or the magic got absorbed by bubbles, who knows?

    The unconfirmed method: Absorbing almost all the magic in a given world
    My theory is that this is how the first gods came to be. If this is true however, then Aurene is on the verge of becoming a goddess. She already has more power than Balthasar in his weakened state and she can travel through the mists. She currently holds the power of 1+2/4 elder dragons, 1 fallen god (including bloodstone battery) and 1 undead lich. This method requires having a body that can contain all that magic energy. We know from the raids that humans can hold quite a lot of magic energy, however again the magic twists them as much as they twist the magic. So a human attempting godhood this way may loose his original personality along the way.

    No skin should be exclusive to gem-store rng boxes.
    What really happened with mount skins

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ninutra.7926 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    I don't think humans are any more sensitive to magic than any other race.
    If a human can become a God then I would expect that it's possible for other races to do the same if they had the same blessing Kormir did.

    This is the sort of mechanic I wanted to know about. But if it can only be bestowed, now with the gods gone, I can't imagine we'd receive it. But this is also a chicken and the egg scenario. Who was the first to achieve godly power? If it could only be bestowed by another god, then how did they became a god? Etc. That's why I lean slightly to the natural argument of one simply being able to accumulate this sort of energy throughout one's life.

    It's very much the same situation with Elder Dragons too, the true origin of both forms of power is completely unknown.
    Chicken and the Egg as you said lol
    I wonder if Anet will allow us to explore this in Gw2 at some point.. I'm not going to get my hopes up though haha.

    If I had to put a guess on it though perhaps some form of evolution created the first Gods, but Elder Dragons.. those are tied into The All somehow so I have no idea how they would just come to be when they're so important to the natural balance.. perhaps they were created along side Tyria by whatever force created the world.

    In theory, if we had that same blessing Kormir did we could have potentially done the same thing when we killed Balthazar and become Gods ourselves.
    This obviously didn't happen though and his power largely got absorbed by Aruine and Kralkatorrik.. I am curious if we'll still see something come out of this in future.

    It would be great to be a god, but imagine the headlines. "God Commander commanding an Elder Dragon", "The Divine and the Dragon, aka the World's End". I also don't imagine our friends would be very much into it.

    Divine Commander and it's pet Elder Dragon xD
    At least Braham wouldn't give us lip anymore, We'll change his Spirit of the Wild to Chicken so he can literally become a giant Co.. you get where im going with that lmfao XD

    I have toyed with an idea of Rytlock eventually becoming the new God of War as it would fit well with the whole Revenant Mists link, not to mention he carries Sohothin which was originally one of Balthazars personal Swords (Yep old Balthy had a duel Swords build before jumping on the Greatsword meta XD)
    Likewise Logan could also be a candidate if the Magdaer storyline every actually gets a payoff in Gw2.

    Now pray that these two won't ever have disagreements again...

    Haha yeah they'll probably have Foefire wars xD

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BunjiKugashira.9754 said:
    While the result of this process is a new god, I can't really call it "becoming a god". Magic is not just some form of energy, it has specific properties and concepts attached to it. We've seen this when Zhaitan died and the other elder dragons started turning the dead into their minions. Every god has magic with special properties. Abaddon for example was the god of knowledge and water. Kormir adopted the knowledge part, put a little twist on it and became the goddes of truth. Just like Kormir put her twist on Abaddon's magic however, the reverse is also true and the magic put a little twist on Kormir. Therefore it is difficult to decide whether the human Kormir and the goddes Kormir are the same person. We still don't know what happened to Abaddon's water magic though. There might be some unknown god of water or the magic got absorbed by bubbles, who knows?

    Lyssa apparently has water according to GW2 sources, so it seems like some of that power got shuffled around a bit after Kormir ascended.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    A lot of it is basically 'we don't know', although in my mind, references to humans coming from somewhere else along with the gods are common enough to be persuasive.

    It's certainly a common opinion in this forum. Do you have any references to help us ascertain whether humans are natives or immigrants?

    The strongest ingame off the top of my head is the Orrian History Scrolls. I think it's been said more blatently in some out-of-game sources, but they're often hard (and in some cases impossible) to track down these days.

    Yeah, that seems to be the go-to source. It's at odds with the Guild Wars Prophecies Manuscripts, though.

    I don't know what to make of the whole "Humans are aliens on Tyria" thing these days. I held that belief largely because others here do, long before I formed my own opinion.

    I have nothing against the idea, but the in-game sources aren't clear about the origins of humanity and the OHS is open to interpretation.

    A go-to source should rather be Cathedral of Silence story, specifically:

    The Seventh Reaper: So shall it be. You seek the heart of Orr? Then you must go to the very beginning. The rock where the gods first set foot upon this world.
    The Seventh Reaper: There is an artesian well hidden in the mountains behind the temple of Melandru. There, you will find the place where Orr began.

    and

    Trahearne: The place where the Six Gods first walked upon Tyria. I never dreamed I'd see it, yet now we know it is the end of our great journey.
    Pact Commander: Where the gods first walked? What does that mean?
    Trahearne: Human myth says that when the Six Gods came to Tyria, they built the city of Arah. The "source" must be the place where they first set foot on Tyria.

    The Orrian History Scrolls goes into a bit more detail, but it's not a reliable source.

    As to the Prophecies manual - a lot was retconned, even in Prophecies itself, let alone Nightfall. It should be noted that A History of Tyria was intentionally written from an in-universe, and tthus unreliable narrator, viewpoint; same with The Movement of the World. This was done so that ANet could freely retcon it as they needed.

    There are other in-game references, but imo, from the word of an avatar of a god and an expert on Orrian history is among the best sources we could get in-game.

    As to the rest of the thread, too tired to read through the wall of text. Pardons.

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  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    A lot of it is basically 'we don't know', although in my mind, references to humans coming from somewhere else along with the gods are common enough to be persuasive.

    It's certainly a common opinion in this forum. Do you have any references to help us ascertain whether humans are natives or immigrants?

    The strongest ingame off the top of my head is the Orrian History Scrolls. I think it's been said more blatently in some out-of-game sources, but they're often hard (and in some cases impossible) to track down these days.

    Yeah, that seems to be the go-to source. It's at odds with the Guild Wars Prophecies Manuscripts, though.

    I don't know what to make of the whole "Humans are aliens on Tyria" thing these days. I held that belief largely because others here do, long before I formed my own opinion.

    I have nothing against the idea, but the in-game sources aren't clear about the origins of humanity and the OHS is open to interpretation.

    A go-to source should rather be Cathedral of Silence story, specifically:

    The Seventh Reaper: So shall it be. You seek the heart of Orr? Then you must go to the very beginning. The rock where the gods first set foot upon this world.
    The Seventh Reaper: There is an artesian well hidden in the mountains behind the temple of Melandru. There, you will find the place where Orr began.

    and

    Trahearne: The place where the Six Gods first walked upon Tyria. I never dreamed I'd see it, yet now we know it is the end of our great journey.
    Pact Commander: Where the gods first walked? What does that mean?
    Trahearne: Human myth says that when the Six Gods came to Tyria, they built the city of Arah. The "source" must be the place where they first set foot on Tyria.

    The Orrian History Scrolls goes into a bit more detail, but it's not a reliable source.

    As to the Prophecies manual - a lot was retconned, even in Prophecies itself, let alone Nightfall. It should be noted that A History of Tyria was intentionally written from an in-universe, and tthus unreliable narrator, viewpoint; same with The Movement of the World. This was done so that ANet could freely retcon it as they needed.

    There are other in-game references, but imo, from the word of an avatar of a god and an expert on Orrian history is among the best sources we could get in-game.

    As to the rest of the thread, too tired to read through the wall of text. Pardons.

    The trouble with the dialogue that you've offered is that none of the NPCs you've quoted state that humanity arrived with the gods, merely that the gods arrived. I'm sure you can appreciate why I disagree with your point. The only source that I know of, thus far, suggesting that humanity migrated to Tyria, rather than evolving from other races already dwelling on it, is The Six.

    In another discussion you brought up guidelines you felt helped us to interpret evidence presented to us. What would your guidelines suggest? If I interpreted your remarks in that discussion correctly, you adeptly pointed-out that in-game opinions and statements carry some of the strongest arguments for or against a position. Well, we have the Orrian History Scrolls, seemingly stating that humans migrated to Tyria from the Mists; then you have the Guild Wars Prophecies Manuscripts, seemingly stating the exact opposite. Both sources, being written documents, are subject to interpretation. Hence, dismissing one or even both as the product of unreliable narration doesn't advance an answer to the question of mankind's origins. We need to find common ground so that both can be interpreted without conflict. Call that common ground what you will - retcon, unreliable narration, glaring error. It doesn't matter to me, as long as the explanation is reasonable.

    I just don't find the current explanations, defending the "traditional" interpretative position of the Orrian History Scrolls, particularly convincing.

    Your thoughts?

  • Dustfinger.9510Dustfinger.9510 Member ✭✭
    edited April 1, 2020

    It is said that all the races "embody magic" by Oola, lab Genius. We know the Elder Dragons absorb magic from the ones they kill. So it would seem that upon death, we all have some sort of outpouring of the magic we embody just as the gods do. We also know that we embody more magic today than we did in GW as the planets lvl of magic had increased. And since the gods seem to have a cap on how much magic they can absorb, it may be that the only thing that makes a god is how much total magic they can hold. The qualification of godhood seems to be reaching that "cap" of the mortal races. (Or, reaching the "cap" of the gods themselves with their help in the form of their blessing, which would make the definition of godhood self defining as the highest known "cap") Since the ED's have cycles of scouring the planet of all magic they can find, and absorbing it and then hibernating when there is nothing more to eat, the ED's may not have a magic lvl cap at all.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    And we can see that release in game mechanics - soul reaping by necromancers is pretty much harvesting that energy release, and other necromancer abilities are essentially making use of the magic tied up in life force in various ways.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    In another discussion you brought up guidelines you felt helped us to interpret evidence presented to us. What would your guidelines suggest? If I interpreted your remarks in that discussion correctly, you adeptly pointed-out that in-game opinions and statements carry some of the strongest arguments for or against a position. Well, we have the Orrian History Scrolls, seemingly stating that humans migrated to Tyria from the Mists; then you have the Guild Wars Prophecies Manuscripts, seemingly stating the exact opposite. Both sources, being written documents, are subject to interpretation. Hence, dismissing one or even both as the product of unreliable narration doesn't advance an answer to the question of mankind's origins. We need to find common ground so that both can be interpreted without conflict. Call that common ground what you will - retcon, unreliable narration, glaring error. It doesn't matter to me, as long as the explanation is reasonable.

    I just don't find the current explanations, defending the "traditional" interpretative position of the Orrian History Scrolls, particularly convincing.

    Your thoughts?

    Well, both cases are potential unreliable narrators. Neither actually hold more solid weight than the other, excluding that one is newer, and supported by items of lesser weight (such as direct dev statements). And those two bits - particularly the "supported by other items" - shifts that weight. In addition, the Prophecies manual is outdated by a large degree having been retconned here and there since the days of Prophecies, while the Orrian History Scrolls still hold accurate everywhere else so far. And this shifts the weight again.

    So while it is possible that either or even both are incorrect (not sure how the "both" would actually pan out - foreign but not brought by the gods?), the scales definitely tip in the favor of "humans were brought to this world by the Six from another".

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  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2, 2020

    And as I commented, the Prophecies Manuscripts never actually says that humans are native. It says "birthed upon the world", which can be read as implying it, but could actually be a poetic way of saying that they were brought to the world with wherever they were immediately beforehand being the metaphorical womb.

    Now, I'm personally pretty sure that the intent in GW1 was that humans were originally created on Tyria, but that's been retconned just as the gods creating the world instead of simply terraforming it was retconned.

    Either way, even in Prophecies, there's pretty clearly a moment where humans were not present, and then suddenly they were in large enough numbers to tip the balance. Other races have long histories on Tyria, even if they've forgotten most of them - there are no written histories going back that far apart from what the 'elder races' left behind, but every race with even an oral history has some reference to the last dragonrise except humans and, curiously, asura (as far as I recall). Kodan, norn, charr, and tengu all have some manner of legend referencing the last dragonrise.

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It has been referenced many, MANY times that humans are not native to Tyria -- most recently by Raven in the Bjora maze trial when you have to choose between one of two books, one of which is a detailed history of Tyria BEFORE HUMAN ARRIVAL.

    What's fuzzy is where exactly in Tyria's timeline humans arrived. The only thing we know for sure is that it was after the last dragonrise, which was about 10K years before the game present. The timeline on the wiki isn't very precise and leaves much open to speculation, as has been gone over in previous discussions...

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Timeline

    For example, it says that the Six arrived in Cantha with humans in 786 BE. Yet the first place the Six set foot on Tyria was in Orr. That implies humans were not with the Six upon their first arrival in Orr. Much has been made of this and other points about the early history of humans in Tyria in other discussions; feel free to search.

    As for the Six...

    The original Six that came to Tyria included Dhuum and Abaddon, who were replaced by Grenth and Kormir; counting them, that makes a total of eight gods that we know have been physically present in Tyria. There are potentially three more "gods" we know about beyond those eight.

    1. Balthazar arrived in Tyria carrying his father's head, so we know he had a father who was beheaded (presumably by Balthazar) before Balthazar came to Tyria. It has also been implied that Balthazar took his power from a previous deity before coming to Tyria. Whether or not that deity and his father were the same being is an open question, but that's the simplest explanation fitting the available facts.

    2. Menzies was Balthazar's evil half-brother. It has been implied that Balthazar killed Menzies, presumably in retaliation for past shenanigans (re: GW1). But it's not clear if Menzies was really a "true" god or if he has ever been physically present in Tyria. He certainly has never appeared in either GW1 or GW2, though we have seen his Shadow minions. His exact relationship to Balthazar and Balthazar's deceased father is also unclear; their mother (or mothers if they had the same father) is unknown.

    3. Abaddon, before coming to Tyria, supposedly took his power from a previous deity named Arachne. But the line between history and legend regarding anything pre-Tyrian is blurry at best, so we'll just say the reference is there in game and leave it at that.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jimbru.6014 said:
    3. Abaddon, before coming to Tyria, supposedly took his power from a previous deity named Arachne. But the line between history and legend regarding anything pre-Tyrian is blurry at best, so we'll just say the reference is there in game and leave it at that.

    While the previous deity being called Arachne is only present in game files and thus are secondary canon at best, it is explicitly stated in a quest that Abaddon had a predecessor whom he took his power from. With that particular quest probably being intended to foreshadow that Kormir would be able to claim his power in turn, I'm inclined to think that this part at least is solid.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jimbru.6014 said:
    It has been referenced many, MANY times that humans are not native to Tyria -- most recently by Raven in the Bjora maze trial when you have to choose between one of two books, one of which is a detailed history of Tyria BEFORE HUMAN ARRIVAL.

    What's fuzzy is where exactly in Tyria's timeline humans arrived. The only thing we know for sure is that it was after the last dragonrise, which was about 10K years before the game present. The timeline on the wiki isn't very precise and leaves much open to speculation, as has been gone over in previous discussions...

    Well, it is also a bit fuzzy there if it meant Tyria the world, or Tyria the continent. I mean, we know they arrived on the continent in 205 BE, well after they were on the world.

    And a note about the dragonrise date: while some sources say 10,000 BE, others sources say "3,000 years ago" (which would be roughly the date given to Forgotten arrival on the world in the old timeline). The latter date is usually given around Glint's age/purification.

    1. Balthazar arrived in Tyria carrying his father's head, so we know he had a father who was beheaded (presumably by Balthazar) before Balthazar came to Tyria. It has also been implied that Balthazar took his power from a previous deity before coming to Tyria. Whether or not that deity and his father were the same being is an open question, but that's the simplest explanation fitting the available facts.

    It really hasn't been suggested Balthazar got his powers from actual lore. It's just a player deduction / theory based on how divinity is passed on and "must have a vessel" and Balthazar has a father / half-brother; if one presumes Balthazar wasn't born as a god, then he had to usurp someone even if born as a demigod like Grenth.

    1. Menzies was Balthazar's evil half-brother. It has been implied that Balthazar killed Menzies, presumably in retaliation for past shenanigans (re: GW1). But it's not clear if Menzies was really a "true" god or if he has ever been physically present in Tyria. He certainly has never appeared in either GW1 or GW2, though we have seen his Shadow minions. His exact relationship to Balthazar and Balthazar's deceased father is also unclear; their mother (or mothers if they had the same father) is unknown.

    Given that Menzies' goal is to usurp Balthazar, it seems most definite that Menzies is not a god - he would be, at best, a demi-god.

    1. Abaddon, before coming to Tyria, supposedly took his power from a previous deity named Arachne. But the line between history and legend regarding anything pre-Tyrian is blurry at best, so we'll just say the reference is there in game and leave it at that.

    As Drax mentioned, Arachnia (not Arachne, who was just a spider broodmother) is only mentioned in the gw.dat. And even that doesn't mention her as being Abaddon's predecessor.
    Her existence is semi-canon at best, and her being Abaddon's predecessor is pure player theory.

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  • Further to people asking above about ingame sources that confirm that Humans were brought to Tyria and are not native to it, there's an ambient conversation in the Mistwarden camp on Dragonfall when it's at tier 2 that confirms it.

    Here's the quote:

    Logan Thackeray: Never thought we'd be invading Melandru's domain.
    Gwen Thackeray: Melandru abandoned us, same as the other gods. These creatures don't deserve our pity.
    Rytlock Brimstone: Finally, something we agree on.
    Gwen Thackeray: Of course you would appreciate that.
    Rytlock Brimstone: Just wish you'd all figured it out sooner. Gods can't be trusted.
    Logan Thackeray: But they brought us here. Helped humanity survive.
    Gwen Thackeray: Then left when we started fighting Elder Dragons. When we needed them the most. The charr's right. it's indefensible.

    As you can see, Logan specifically says the gods brought humans 'here' (meaning Tyria) and Gwen confirms it when she remarks on them leaving humans behind once the fight started with the EDs. Took me a while to remember where I'd heard it (I've semi-afk'd at that camp a few times) so figured I'd post here where I heard it for all you other lore buffs :)

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Finally getting around to the OP...

    @Ninutra.7926 said:
    According to Eternal Alchemy, beings such as the human Gods and Spirits of the Wild are only powerful entities, not creators of the world in any way. In that case, they are inhabitants of this world like anyone, albeit ones with much higher degree of power. If so, then:

    So... yes, and no.

    The Eternal Alchemy is the study of / belief of the interworkings all things in the multiverse. So all things are "part of it" and would classify as "just entities of x power level". Even the Elder Dragons.

    That said, the Six Gods aren't technically inhabitants of Tyria, originating from another world and only "visiting" for a few centuries.

    • Are gods a separate race? One that comes with naturally high magic concentration/powers? Were some of them divine from birth, or existed since forever, while the likes of Kormir and Grenth are ascended humans or... half-breeds, in Grenth's case? Are gods simply powerful humans that can just spawn out of thin air? Or did they all ascend at some point in time, but maybe so long ago that nobody could possibly remember? I personally lean towards the latter.
    • Depends on one defines race, but it'd be more accurate to say that are a "position". They are entities (not strictly humans) who have a very specific and "powerful bundle of unique energy. They are not "simply powerful humans".
    • According to Nightfall, a god's power must have a vessel, or it becomes volatile and would destroying worlds and realms around it. No mortal is capable of obtaining such power normally (any attempt results in insanity, as shown with the ley-line bounties in PoF / S4); Kormir could only because she got a unique blessing from the gods.
    • It's unclear if "they all ascended at some point", but it is implied; however, the power has to have come from somewhere, and given aforementioned Nightfall lore, it's likely that there was a "first generation of gods" that came into existence as gods.
    • If it is possible to ascend, how does one acquire such power? Aside from sucking up another dying god, that is. Could one perhaps take in a large power pool from any source and just become a god? If so, then how many "gods" could there be in the Mists, if not all human(oids) came to Tyria? And potentially, how many can be created in Tyria itself? Can one take up magic over the course of a long life, instead of all at once? Could a long-lived race perhaps develop into something with similar power level to the Six? (let's just entertain the thought that Dragon's won't eat you, nor your magic)
    • "Sucking up from another god" is the only known method. The god doesn't have to die, mind you - Dhuum and Balthazar lost their divinity without death, after all. Based on this, "none" is the number of gods capable of being made in Tyria. And as to how many gods could exist in the Mists - theoretically infinitely, since the Mists contains a multiverse.
    • Given the volatile nature of released god magic, it has to be all at once.
    • Theoretically - gods aren't the only entities with massive amounts of magic and power. Elder Dragons, for one. But they run into the issue of insanity through magical intake, as per we see in S3, PoF, and S4. For some reason, the gods seem immune to this, and the Elder Dragons highly resistant. But no other entity is known to be resistant (without help). This was Gaheron Baelfire's plan after all - to obtain enough magical power to become unto a god.
    • Are humans specifically sensitive to magic and taking it up, because of their direct connection with their gods and the possibility to ascend? (also looking at the fact that they hail from the Mists) Could a charr or a norn, for example, strive to achieve such power? (and I am talking a situation more akin to what made Kormir a goddess, not the kind of "ascension" going on in Elon Riverlands, just to clarify)
    • Nope. We see humans in the PoF bounties just like norn, choya, Awakened, etc.
    • There's nothing to say that non-humans couldn't replace a god. But again, some sort of 'blessing' or 'help' to avoid magical insanity is needed.
    • Iirc, Balthazar did not use a lot of his powers between coming back to Tyria and eating the Bloodstone; all the visual tricks have been done by Lyssa's Mirror. He relied on diplomacy, rather than strength. He was a shell of his former self, and yet, he sponged in the power of the Stone easily, while everyone else either died or went crazy. Was his body somehow different from your regular human? Easier to house magic in, resilient to side effects? Again, back to the first point, is it a predisposition one is born with, or is it developed? (now that I think of Balthazar's body, which disappeared during his death, was itself only/mostly magic? If so, is it held in this state of matter by the strength of will, since it has a tendency to spread out? Do powerful beings possess some sort of gravitational-magical pull that keeps it together?)
    • Definitely. Kossage covered it fully with his point 1. But basically, it's indicated that ascending to godhood fundamentally changes one's body, mind, and soul. They are no longer "living beings" when becoming a god.
    • Given that Kormir ascended into godhood, it is not a born disposition. :)

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  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kossage.9072

    The possibility that the GW1PC (or at least one of the GW1PCs) became Balthazar's replacement is one I've certainly considered myself.

    One possible way they could address the identity thing if they took that route is for the PC to have chosen to continue to go by the name Balthazar, out of a sense of continuity and respect for what he represented. That could still leave it open for everyone to imagine their GW1PC of choice filling the role - even if the PC was originally female, as the God of War they present as male because they chose to. If they ever show up in the game, it could be an opportunity to drop a "Who I was doesn't matter any more, I am now Balthazar. Not Balthazar as he was, but Balthazar as he should have been." type of line.

    Or they could make the new God of War a composite (similar to Lyssa) who goes by the name Balthazar for similar reasons as above.

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭

    Good questions and answers here! All I really have to contribute is my continued spitballing about the new God of War.

    • Balthazar has been replaced already, we just don’t know who it is. He was replaced 200 years ago or at least before Zafirah was born.

    Kormir does not refer to the Gods as the Five, she still calls them the Six. This is someone who knew them as the Five for her mortal life and so calling them the Five wouldn’t be strange for her if that was the case.

    Zafirah was receiving blessings and felt a divine presence. When she met Balthazar she notes that his presence is different from the one she’s been feeling her whole life.

    • The replacement for Balthazar is, in my opinion, either Rurik or the GW1 hero as they are the most likely candidates from the previous roster.
  • @Kossage.9072 said:

    If the gods did in fact take away Balthy's divinity, though, we then run into an important story detail that's yet to be addressed (and why I found Jessica Price's possibly mistaken statements about Aurene being planned to become the new god of war troubling): we know from Balthazar and Abaddon's deaths that the unleashed divine power requires a vessel. If Balthazar was no longer a god, someone must've already replaced him in the pantheon, especially as Kormir referred to the current pantheon specifically as the Six rather than the Five: "He is no longer one of the Six." One could argue that this is simply ambiguous writing and that no longer being one of the Six implies that the current pantheon is simply the Five now. We know from dev statements and from Kormir's alternate line in S4Ep1 Daybreak trailer that the "Facing the Truth" instance went through several rewrites during the curious PoF rewrites that even led to the recording of newly written lines, so this line may have been more straightforward in the previous recording such as the alternate line we heard in Daybreak trailer that explained the gods' reason for abandoning Tyria more clearly than the shipped line in PoF.

    He was stripped of his claim, title and power. This would align with losing his place as one of the six but he may still have retained divinity as a lesser or demi-god. This would explain his ability to wield super powers while also make a path back to full power possible as was his plan. If this is the case evidenced by his powers and plan, the blank slate theory would need to be tweeked.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dustfinger.9510 said:

    @Kossage.9072 said:

    If the gods did in fact take away Balthy's divinity, though, we then run into an important story detail that's yet to be addressed (and why I found Jessica Price's possibly mistaken statements about Aurene being planned to become the new god of war troubling): we know from Balthazar and Abaddon's deaths that the unleashed divine power requires a vessel. If Balthazar was no longer a god, someone must've already replaced him in the pantheon, especially as Kormir referred to the current pantheon specifically as the Six rather than the Five: "He is no longer one of the Six." One could argue that this is simply ambiguous writing and that no longer being one of the Six implies that the current pantheon is simply the Five now. We know from dev statements and from Kormir's alternate line in S4Ep1 Daybreak trailer that the "Facing the Truth" instance went through several rewrites during the curious PoF rewrites that even led to the recording of newly written lines, so this line may have been more straightforward in the previous recording such as the alternate line we heard in Daybreak trailer that explained the gods' reason for abandoning Tyria more clearly than the shipped line in PoF.

    He was stripped of his claim, title and power. This would align with losing his place as one of the six but he may still have retained divinity as a lesser or demi-god. This would explain his ability to wield super powers while also make a path back to full power possible as was his plan. If this is the case evidenced by his powers and plan, the blank slate theory would need to be tweeked.

    It was confirmed he didn't have divinity by himself, Kormir, and ANet. Like how he didn't blind the player like Kormir did.

    The question is on "what happened to his divinity".

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  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Dustfinger.9510 said:

    @Kossage.9072 said:

    If the gods did in fact take away Balthy's divinity, though, we then run into an important story detail that's yet to be addressed (and why I found Jessica Price's possibly mistaken statements about Aurene being planned to become the new god of war troubling): we know from Balthazar and Abaddon's deaths that the unleashed divine power requires a vessel. If Balthazar was no longer a god, someone must've already replaced him in the pantheon, especially as Kormir referred to the current pantheon specifically as the Six rather than the Five: "He is no longer one of the Six." One could argue that this is simply ambiguous writing and that no longer being one of the Six implies that the current pantheon is simply the Five now. We know from dev statements and from Kormir's alternate line in S4Ep1 Daybreak trailer that the "Facing the Truth" instance went through several rewrites during the curious PoF rewrites that even led to the recording of newly written lines, so this line may have been more straightforward in the previous recording such as the alternate line we heard in Daybreak trailer that explained the gods' reason for abandoning Tyria more clearly than the shipped line in PoF.

    He was stripped of his claim, title and power. This would align with losing his place as one of the six but he may still have retained divinity as a lesser or demi-god. This would explain his ability to wield super powers while also make a path back to full power possible as was his plan. If this is the case evidenced by his powers and plan, the blank slate theory would need to be tweeked.

    It was confirmed he didn't have divinity by himself, Kormir, and ANet. Like how he didn't blind the player like Kormir did.

    The question is on "what happened to his divinity".

    Where does Balthazar openly state that he doesn't have divinity? Or Kormir, or even Anet? I need to pay more attention.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    It was confirmed he didn't have divinity by himself, Kormir, and ANet. Like how he didn't blind the player like Kormir did.

    The question is on "what happened to his divinity".

    Stephens question is my question. Is that an interpretation based on not having the qualities of a full god or is it specifically stated he has no divinity?

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 3, 2020

    "They dimmed my light." Light often refers to 'divinity' when talking about Gods. The blinding aura when around Kormir is quite clearly caused by 'light'.

    "Balthazar has been stripped of his claim and title, he is no longer one of the Six." Title being "God of War" which requires divinity. Dhuum was no longer the "God of Death", because that was taken from him by Grenth, which included taking his power. In this instance, both claim and title mean the actual divine power that allows the God to take the name. There is no previous instance of a God that has lost it's divinity still claiming to be and referred to as a God, or even on the same power level as a God.

    Speaking of Dhuum, him continuing to be so damned powerful despite no longer being a God is yet further justification for Balthazar to not have his divinity - Even without it he was still monstrously powerful, just like Dhuum was. Thus, he was in the same state of Dhuum.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    "They dimmed my light." Light often refers to 'divinity' when talking about Gods. The blinding aura when around Kormir is quite clearly caused by 'light'.

    "Balthazar has been stripped of his claim and title, he is no longer one of the Six." Title being "God of War" which requires divinity. Dhuum was no longer the "God of Death", because that was taken from him by Grenth, which included taking his power. In this instance, both claim and title mean the actual divine power that allows the God to take the name. There is no previous instance of a God that has lost it's divinity still claiming to be and referred to as a God, or even on the same power level as a God.

    Speaking of Dhuum, him continuing to be so damned powerful despite no longer being a God is yet further justification for Balthazar to not have his divinity - Even without it he was still monstrously powerful, just like Dhuum was. Thus, he was in the same state of Dhuum.

    I'm not in the same boat. I need a specific quote, revealing that Balthazar lost his divinity.

    And please don't get me wrong. I dig the speculation and the reasoning behind it. I just don't think it's quite as clear cut as it seems to some folks around here.

  • @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    "They dimmed my light." Light often refers to 'divinity' when talking about Gods. The blinding aura when around Kormir is quite clearly caused by 'light'.

    "Balthazar has been stripped of his claim and title, he is no longer one of the Six." Title being "God of War" which requires divinity. Dhuum was no longer the "God of Death", because that was taken from him by Grenth, which included taking his power. In this instance, both claim and title mean the actual divine power that allows the God to take the name. There is no previous instance of a God that has lost it's divinity still claiming to be and referred to as a God, or even on the same power level as a God.

    Speaking of Dhuum, him continuing to be so damned powerful despite no longer being a God is yet further justification for Balthazar to not have his divinity - Even without it he was still monstrously powerful, just like Dhuum was. Thus, he was in the same state of Dhuum.

    This is what I posited: " he may still have retained divinity as a lesser or demi-god"

    Grenth, as a half god, would still have divinity before he became a full fledged god.

  • If we go by hints and lore presented in both Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2, then it'd appear human race is somewhat special and has the unique ability to absorb and utilize a wider array of magic than the other races.

    "You already have our blessing." - something the gods communicate via their avatars in Gate of Madness. In other words, anyone in the party with Kormir had the potential and capability to absorb Abaddon's rampart magic.

    On the other hand, we have cases like Gaheron Baelfire, who would appear to have attained a vast magical power - but contrary to humans who attain such power from other beings of magical potency, he'd appear to have been collecting magical artifacts such as Sohothin to boost himself. It's unclear how much of Gaheron's power actually resided in himself, so to speak.

    Also, being one of The Six Human Gods =/= being a divine entity (as far as 'former' gods go). Balthazar being stripped of his claim and title essentially translates into him no longer being the 'patron god' of fire and war. He's still a god / divine entity none the less, just not the 'primary' / 'foremost'. Clearly he still retained many abilities even after the others apparently 'de-powered' him (see him re-igniting Sohothin and creating portals).

    A lot of this is just speculation and I doubt even the devs have given it as much thought yet. It appears to be established, though, that titles and ranks mean little, as there's much differentiation even among dragon champions, gods and common foot soldiers.

  • Kossage.9072Kossage.9072 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 4, 2020

    @Dustfinger.9510 said:
    He was stripped of his claim, title and power. This would align with losing his place as one of the six but he may still have retained divinity as a lesser or demi-god. This would explain his ability to wield super powers while also make a path back to full power possible as was his plan. If this is the case evidenced by his powers and plan, the blank slate theory would need to be tweeked.

    Yes, I should've been more clear about what I mean by "losing his divinity" as we have different interpretations of the phrase. As I stated in my post, post-imprisonment Balthazar would have had a severely reduced power level (hence his lack of blinding effect on mortals, his inability to kill Marjory in Rata Novus when a typical full god would've just killed all the people there in a second without the assistance of mercenaries, his need to stay hidden from the rest of the gods until he had regained enough power, and why he couldn't even manifest his greatsword until he had gotten enough juicy from Jormag and Primordus). While it's unclear what his power level was, I'd speculate he'd be at most at demigod level at the end of PoF after all his powerups because he still lacked the blinding effect and still needed Aurene to battle Kralkatorrik when as a full god he could've just used his own divine magic to counter and harm Kralkatorrik by himself (as shown by divinely imbued artifacts such as the Divine Fire that scared off Mordrem and was the undoing of the "immortal" Shadow of the Dragon, Kormir's spell protecting Sun's Refuge from the Branded, and the djinn using remnants of Abaddon's magic to become impervious to dragon corruption until getting access to Balthazar's magic allowed Kralkatorrik to corrupt them).

    Although no longer a god in a typical sense, S3 and PoF Balthazar would be more akin to a former god like Dhuum (whose position as a full god was usurped by Grenth) than a fallen god like Abaddon. The latter, unlike Dhuum, actually retained his position as one of the Six upon imprisonment but had lost his original body and had his magic divided and sealed behind multiple locks while keeping him in this "limbo" state until he began taking back his power. It's unclear, though, why Abby's magic just didn't go rampant when it was divided behind the seals when we know from his death that his unleashed magic needed to be contained, but maybe it was still tied to him because he was "alive" during imprisonment as a being of magic. If I were to hazard a guess, maybe that ability to exist without a shell if not fully slain is similar to what we see Balthy doing in this shot of the S3Ep1 trailer with the Bloodstone, and in this shot from S3Ep5 after he's become a being of energy while inserting himself into Taimi's machine: as long as you still have enough energy left to maintain your will even if your physical form is altered or shattered, you don't suffer the outburst of magic unlike when you're weakened enough (as seen with Abaddon and Balthazar upon their respective demises). Since Abby was still conscious upon imprisonment, he was able to maintain a tenous connection to his sealed magic even if he couldn't access that power until the gradual weakening of his prison, thus ensuring that that magic wouldn't just go rampant and destroy all of reality then and there.

    As we know from Nightfall lore and from Grenth's lore, any power taken from a god has to be stored somewhere (preferably a living host as shown with Grenth and Kormir) or it will destroy everything around it. For some reason the gods (presumably) didn't seal away Balthazar's magic behind locks like they did with Abaddon; it could be that the only way to do so is if they destroy the original body, so maybe they didn't want to do something so cruel to their former comrade and felt imprisonment was enough of a punishment.

    It still leaves the question what exactly happened to all that magic the gods had taken from Balthazar, though. If it wasn't sealed behind locks that Balthazar could've had access to, it must've gone somewhere else. I theorized in my earlier post that that divine energy must've been transferred to a new presumably mortal host who became Balthazar's successor as a new deity of conflict. The new deity likely won't be called the God(dess) of War and Fire but some variation of that with some unique aspects; Kormir's portfolio changed from Abaddon's "God of Knowledge and Water" into "Goddess of Order, Spirit and Truth" upon her ascension (while Lyssa curiously took over the portfolio of Water for some reason), and Grenth likewise added Ice to the portfolio of God of Death which his predecessor Dhuum apparently hadn't had during his reign.

    With that said, I'd agree with you that the mantle of godhood isn't so clear-cut although by "divinity" I generally refer to their status as one of the Six with all the blinding and world-shaping perks that come with it as opposed to the more limited powers of less powerful "deities" who can't blind people and don't need armies to defeat. While apparently there can only ever be no less than Six Gods as far as we know (otherwise the gods could've just taken Abaddon's power instead of imprisoning him and sealing his power and waiting for a suitable replacement to usurp him centuries later), it's possible to have half-gods running around without issue. After all, Grenth existed as a half-god (inheriting some "divine" magic from his mom Dwayna) for some time before usurping Dhuum, and if Menzies ends up being revealed as a half-god too in the future, that'd mean at least two half-gods were out there while the Six reigned.

    I'd theorize that although you can strip a god of their godhood, the former god can still retain a spark of that lost divinity because their original ascension and how it shapes their body and magic seems to be an irreversible process on the host of that magic. Once a being's mortal shell has perished and it has transcended into an "immortal" magical entity without "life" (as shown by Taimi's device scanning Balthazar and only finding magic but no sign of life), a fraction of that power may remain in the former god because of the nature of the transformation. We also know that divine magic, possibly because it appears to be foreign to Tyria due to gods coming from another world in the Mists, is anathema to dragon energy which is based on native Tyrian magic (see above examples of god magic with dragon-repelling effects such as Divine Fire, Kormir's spell in Sun's Refuge, why dragon minions generally avoid areas affected by the Foefire which was based on a divine magic ritual etc.), so the dragons may have been at a disadvantage if they fought fully powered gods. This would explain why Balthazar, despite no longer having the immense powers and blinding effect of the Six as a former god, could just waltz into Primordus's lair and set up Taimi's Machine without being devoured outright by Primordus or the hundreds of Destroyers that resided within (when he had previously been revealed to have gotten tired just from a bit of fighting with the Commander and trying to set Marjory ablaze and failing in Rata Novus).

    This would explain why Dhuum and Balthy, despite being former gods, can still attempt to regain at least some of their lost power even if they can presumably never regain all their abilities and perks of full godhood like the blinding effect (as far as we know, anyway; Dhuum had no blinding effect despite having devoured souls to empower himself for centuries and being potentially on par power-wise to PoF Balthazar). Interestingly Balthazar was able to convert the remnant magic of the Maguuma Bloodstone, and the magic from Zhaitan, Mordremoth, Primordus and Jormag into his own "divine" fire magic rather than absorbing and using the Death, Plant, Ice etc. aspects of these dragons whereas the dragons seem to be able to utilize their brethren's dispersed magic (and even a slain former god's magic) to gain more abilities. Perhaps this is what Kormir meant by the dragons being even beyond the gods in that they're somehow able to use different kinds of elemental magic more effectively than gods who instead have to convert other magic elements into their own brand of magic?

    Similarly, while not being a full god (and not a member of the Six) anymore, that spark of god magic that remained in Balthazar (due to his state as a being of magic and absorbing more magic to "refuel" himself with some limitations as discussed above) gave Kralkatorrik, Aurene (and supposedly several other affected beings like the rest of the Elder Dragons and other magically potent beings like Foefire ghosts etc.) a power boost that would theoretically allow them to become threats to the gods now that they get adjusted to the "frequency" of divine magic. Like Tom Abernathy said via Julia Nardin:

    Tom Abernathy: Balthazar’s divine energy—assuming you mean his magic—went into Aurene, Kralkatorrik, and, presumably, every other Elder Dragon on Tyria. And yeah, that probably matters enough that it will come up again at some point.

    Case in point, Kralk and Aurene gained an ability to enter the Mists from Balthazar, and apparently it also allowed at least Kralk to circumvent djinn protection to dragon corruption so he could start Branding them (the djinn had gained their protection from another divine source, Abaddon, as heavily implied during PoF and Season 4). Although Tom mentions just the Elder Dragons gaining this magic, I'd argue it affects every magical being on Tyria as that magic would've spread through the ley lines and hit beings such as Adelbern and the Foefire ghosts who should've received a notable power boost from this too. It could be a pretty cool plot thread for the future, witnessing the return of an empowered Adelbern leading his strengthened Foefire ghost army to invade Ascalon and us being forced to locate the prophesied Heir of Ascalon teased in Season 2 (via the Krytan royal locket's sadly weakened magic signature) ASAP and use Sohothin and Magdaer and King Adelbern's crown with the Heir (and possibly with help from Rytlock and Logan if they wield the respective swords while the Heir wears the crown) to perform the ritual to end the curse at long last. :)

    Then of course we have Connie Griffith's statement on Reddit (it's under spoiler tags there, so you gotta hover your cursor above it to read the statement, or look at the transcript I've provided below) that supports the statements of Balthazar's depowering by Kormir and the story journal, as she clarifies how the Commander was able to defeat Balthazar who, despite no longer being as powerful as he once was, still was enough of a challenge that soloing him would've been a very tricky task for a mere mortal:

    I think you might have answered your own question, bc Sohothin and Aurene are definitely key factors ;) However, it's important to remember that Balthazar's power level is not at the same level when the other gods stripped him of his power and chained him in the Mists. The power he wields in PoF is what he's regained since absorbing a bloodstone and Taimi's machine. He's still mega-powerful, but the Commander is also pretty freakin' powerful and using a god's own sword against him and having your own pet dragon seem to go a long way.

    With all that said, I assume the devs' internal lore bible probably doesn't go that much into detail about gods, half-gods, fallen gods and former gods as the writers generally want to leave room for themselves if they want to tackle this or that subject in the future or if they want to keep some air of mystery around these entities. It's a fascinating discussion, nevertheless. :)

    So, summa summarum: Balthazar is a former god (assuming there are no lore discrepancies) stripped of his power so he's no longer a full god or member of the Six. However, as an entity of magic (due to the way gods seem to be created via the death of a mortal shell if Koss's writings on Kormir are to be believed as I explained in my post above) he still has a remnant/spark of his native divine magic within him that allowed him to pull off all his crazy stunts in S3 and PoF (manifesting Temar and Tegon, inserting himself into the stream in Taimi's machine, summoning dire generators etc., and manifesting his greatsword after he had gotten enough Bloodstone and dragon juice inside himself) even though he didn't regain his full god abilities such as the blinding effect and why he was so "easily" defeated in PoF.

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:

    • The replacement for Balthazar is, in my opinion, either Rurik or the GW1 hero as they are the most likely candidates from the previous roster.

    I was about to argue against Rurik because in my opinion he hasn't done as many major things to "deserve" godhood (especially when compared to the actions of the GW1 Hero who had a much bigger impact on the world) unlike Kormir who did do many more things until I realized that he and Kormir do have a potential connection that might allow the writers to make him a new deity of conflict if they wished.

    We know that the gods granted Kormir a special gift that allowed her to take in Abaddon's magic and ascend into godhood. But there may have been another prerequisite for this replacement to happen, and it may or may not be the reason why the gods chose Kormir specifically out of all the candidates. Kormir's story was tied to Abaddon from the moment she accidentally awakened the Apocrypha which had been infused with Abaddon's power in Fahranur. This act that allowed Abaddon to speed up his progress may have bound Kormir and Abaddon in unexpected ways, and we even see Kormir say the following before she's dragged into the Realm of Torment:

    Kormir: I fear my time on this world is nearing an end. The closer we get to the Realm of Torment, the more I feel my mind bound to its power.
    Shahai the Cunning: Should I help you back to the Sunspear Sanctuary?
    Kormir: No, Shahai. You have done enough. My nightmares have led me to this place many times.
    Kormir: AHHHHHHHHHH! I can feel Abaddon in my soul; in my mind....
    Kormir: I will not let his darkness consume me here! (Source)

    Kormir had nightmares since the encounter with the Apocrypha. Her mind was already being bound to the Realm of Torment and to Abaddon, so much so that she claimed to even feel Abaddon in her soul. Perhaps this connection prepared her to be Abaddon's replacement and why the gods chose her specifically.

    As for Rurik and him potentially becoming Balthazar's successor (if the devs went with that idea instead of using one of the GW1 Heroes or some other candidate), there is a connection between the two too. Just like Kormir had been "touched" by Abaddon when she awakened the Apocrypha, Rurik wielded Sohothin which Connie Griffith revealed had been Balthazar's own sword (which we sadly never learned during PoF; maybe it was another line that fell victim to the late rewrites?). So if we go with this theory, Rurik wielding Balthazar's sword might give him big enough of a link to Balthy that the gods chose him as a suitable replacement.

    Sadly we don't really know what the requirements of replacing a god are, but maybe these ideas will be discussed in game once the gods return to the story in some form as devs such as Linsey Murdock have said that there's more to the gods' story (including whatever they're planning in the Mists) and that there's more to being a god of war and Balthazar's story than what we've seen. Of course plans can change, and they may just drop the gods from the plot entirely, but I feel it's a worthy story thread to follow one day, especially if we visit Doern Velazquez's mysterious homeland and if that homeland turns out to be the first nation all the human tribes and gods settled once the gods had brought them to Tyria the planet via Orr. :)

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 4, 2020

    Right, Rurik from a personality standpoint slots neatly into a "God of Protection", if the Gods wanted a replacement for Balthazar that embodies more... Agreeable aspects of the portfolio. One who fights wars to protect others, rather than for conquest, and knows when a war is lost and when it is time to prioritise protection of the people that remain - Which would lead into him agreeing to withdraw with the other Gods in the face of the Elder Dragons. He literally died to protect his people. This is why I drew him out as a possibility. Sure, he got turned into an undead and died, but if they really needed a replacement for Balthazar quickly, Grenth could have returned him.

    And sidenote, yes, I 100% agree that Balthazar still had a divine spark, and was still very much a demigod and monstrously powerful being, but from a purely 'scientific' standpoint, he had no divine magic. That is the realm of the Gods only.

  • @Kossage.9072 said:

    So, summa summarum: Balthazar is a former god (assuming there are no lore discrepancies) stripped of his power so he's no longer a full god or member of the Six. However, as an entity of magic (due to the way gods seem to be created via the death of a mortal shell if Koss's writings on Kormir are to be believed as I explained in my post above) he still has a remnant/spark of his native divine magic within him that allowed him to pull off all his crazy stunts in S3 and PoF (manifesting Temar and Tegon, inserting himself into the stream in Taimi's machine, summoning dire generators etc., and manifesting his greatsword after he had gotten enough Bloodstone and dragon juice inside himself) even though he didn't regain his full god abilities such as the blinding effect and why he was so "easily" defeated in PoF.

    I gotcha. We are on the same page. Balthazaar seems to have been relegated to our traditional role of "fallen god" or "old god". A god who used to reign as the top dog over a particular element or ideal but is has been overthrown/replaced by another god who now holds the "official" title as "god of X". Much like the Titans before the Olympians or any number of stories about an ancient god who bides his time waiting to return to power.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 4, 2020

    @Dustfinger.9510 said:

    @Kossage.9072 said:

    So, summa summarum: Balthazar is a former god (assuming there are no lore discrepancies) stripped of his power so he's no longer a full god or member of the Six. However, as an entity of magic (due to the way gods seem to be created via the death of a mortal shell if Koss's writings on Kormir are to be believed as I explained in my post above) he still has a remnant/spark of his native divine magic within him that allowed him to pull off all his crazy stunts in S3 and PoF (manifesting Temar and Tegon, inserting himself into the stream in Taimi's machine, summoning dire generators etc., and manifesting his greatsword after he had gotten enough Bloodstone and dragon juice inside himself) even though he didn't regain his full god abilities such as the blinding effect and why he was so "easily" defeated in PoF.

    I gotcha. We are on the same page. Balthazaar seems to have been relegated to our traditional role of "fallen god" or "old god". A god who used to reign as the top dog over a particular element or ideal but is has been overthrown/replaced by another god who now holds the "official" title as "god of X". Much like the Titans before the Olympians or any number of stories about an ancient god who bides his time waiting to return to power.

    I'm in general agreement with statements like: Balthazar is a god and/or that he's divine.

    Here's my take on things: Kormir states that she was one of the Six when the call was made to dismiss Balthazar. That means that the decision was made sometime after 1075AE.

    The Sixs' decision must've affected humanity somehow. The most likely outcome of their decision, therefore, is the Foefire (I.e. the decision to chain Balthy was made around 1090AE). Now the Six may have been behind the Foefire, or perhaps just Balthy. But the idea is that, when Adelbern handles Magdaer in Ghosts of Ascalon, he is unwittingly being influenced by events in the god realms. Either all of the gods, or just the Big Five, guide Adelbern to cast the Foefire spell.

    Why? Here's the theory: The human gods feed on magic. They can work with quite a few kinds of magic, but they prefer human lifeforce. Still, some of the gods, such as Melandru, aren't nearly as refined. She consumes alien lifeforce too. Hence, the gods cast the Foefire through Adelbern so that, in the absence of the god of war directly guiding humanity's wars against it's enemies, the gods would still have a steady supply of magic to feed upon. The Ghosts of Ascalon would harvest lifeforce from mankind's mortal enemies: the feral charr.

    But things haven't quite gone to plan. The charr have been finding ways to subvert the Ascalonian ghost army and the gods' food supply, alien lifeforce, has been lean.

    Now onto Balthy's divinity. The sword Sohothin is linked to Balthy somehow. When Rytlock wants to solve the ghost problem in Ascalon and attempts a ritual with that in mind, the sword makes it's way back to Balthy. Rytlock helps him and Balthy even goes so far as the call Rytlock his friend. In Rytlock's requiem, the charr waxes on about his attachment to it. What does all of this mean? Well, if we believe that candidates for the position of god of war have wielded, or do wield, Sohothin, shouldn't it follow that those candidates would no longer view Balthazar as the god of war?

    But what does Rytlock do? He states that "Balthazar is one of the Six". (Curious, right? I mean, he's a charr, why even acknowledge Balthazar at all?) And to whom does he state it? The Goddess of Truth. Why? Because he's telling the truth. Balthazar was still the god of war. Kormir never explicitly said that Balthazar wasn't the god of war, just that he had been stripped of a few things, including his title, claim and so on.

    And why not do that with your god of war? You know, we think that another god of war wouldn't be as fanatical as Balthazar, but don't be so sure. Balthy may have been the most able god of war mankind has ever had. Moreover, everyone assumes that when some big bad dragons turn up the god of war would willingly pass up the opportunity to fight them. Really? In reality Dwayna's pantheon knew that, whoever their god of war was, he'd likely go and get himself KILLED fighting the dragons if they didn't do something about it.

    So they chained him up to keep him from doing anything rash. But something "beyond" even the gods intervened and set Balthy on a collision course with Tyria's deadliest does.

    When Zafira notes Balthy's odd vibe, this isn't an indication that he is no longer a god. She is sensing the disharmony within the human pantheon through the turmoil in her soul. Note, too, that after Balthazar passes, she remains loyal to his memory, because, you know, he hasn't been replaced.

    So what would've happened if the gods' plan had worked? Balthy would've been reinstated.

    But that's just too bad, now, isn't it?

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 4, 2020

    That is a very odd take on it with absolutely nothing to back it up.

    How do you draw a connection between the Gods and the Foefire?

    How do you assume that the Gods 'prefer human lifeforce', or even consume magic at all? There is no evidence that they do. Balthazar only needed to because he was depowered by the other Gods.

    Why do you assume the Gods are some kind of grand pantheon of villains?

    Kormir directly says "No." to Rytlock, so Rytlock IS wrong about saying Balthazar is one of the Six.

    There is a lot wrong with your post.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    That is a very odd take on it with absolutely nothing to back it up.

    How do you draw a connection between the Gods and the Foefire?

    How do you assume that the Gods 'prefer human lifeforce', or even consume magic at all? There is no evidence that they do. Balthazar only needed to because he was depowered by the other Gods.

    Why do you assume the Gods are some kind of grand pantheon of villains?

    Kormir directly says "No." to Rytlock, so Rytlock IS wrong about saying Balthazar is one of the Six.

    There is a lot wrong with your post.

    Fair enough, mate. It's certainly not a conventional opinion. Take it or leave it.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It does feel a bit conspiracy-theory-ish, and I don't really see any reason to think why the decision to demote Balthazar would necessarily impact on humans in Tyria when the gods are specifically looking to reduce their presence and impact on Tyria.

    Saying that the gods were responsible for the Foefire in particular flies in the face of the observation that one of the primary motivations for the gods withdrawing was that they realised they couldn't fight on Tyria without causing more collateral damage than they were willing to accept, and Balthazar's disgrace came because he refused to accept this judgement and wanted to fight the dragons regardless of what that would do to Tyria. Why would the others initiate another disaster when their whole reason for leaving was to avoid exactly that?

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2020

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    It does feel a bit conspiracy-theory-ish, and I don't really see any reason to think why the decision to demote Balthazar would necessarily impact on humans in Tyria when the gods are specifically looking to reduce their presence and impact on Tyria.

    I accept that. It can come across as a conspiracy theory. I have previously outlined another theory that the Exodus was just one of Lyssa's spells and that the human gods have very personal stakes in the outcome of Tyria's war against the dragons. Hence, Balthazar used Lyssa's mirror to defuse her spell and act within Tyria without being detected. Kormir didn't have the luxury of preventing an audience with Kasmeer because she wasn't part of the pantheon when Lyssa cast the Exodus spell.

    And therein lies the big question that you're ultimately posing: Why would the gods hang around, casting a spell that makes it seem like they departed? Why not just leave? Well, the theory is that they sustain themselves in and through humanity. They are so deeply entwined with humanity that they are always present with them. So they need to find a way to prevent humanity from appealing to them in order to avoid being bound by mankind's will.

    The idea here is that our knowledge of the human gods is deliberately vague and that's how they want it to remain. But one thing that settles in my mind is the idea that, if humanity's prayers reach a kind of critical mass, the corresponding god to whom such prayers are directed is compelled to intervene. Hence, they want to reduce the number and specificity of prayers offered to them.

    Saying that the gods were responsible for the Foefire in particular flies in the face of the observation that one of the primary motivations for the gods withdrawing was that they realised they couldn't fight on Tyria without causing more collateral damage than they were willing to accept, and Balthazar's disgrace came because he refused to accept this judgement and wanted to fight the dragons regardless of what that would do to Tyria. Why would the others initiate another disaster when their whole reason for leaving was to avoid exactly that?

    A fair point. The gods didn't cause the Foefire on a whim. My theory is that their decision came at great personal cost and reflected their desire to protect humanity, especially now that Balthazar was no longer actively intervening in humanity's conflicts. My theory is that Abaddon and Balthazar both act as a kind of immune system against mankind's enemies. With the loss of Abaddon, humans found themselves susceptible to such things as the Scarab Plague, as Abaddon no longer protected humanity from diseases and illnesses contracted through mingling with alien races (e.g. the Forgotten). And, of course, once Balthazar was "dismissed", the last hope for humanity prevailing against, or defending themselves from, mortal enemies like the charr died with his binding. (Think of Balthazar being chained in the same way that you think of Abaddon being chained. The chains with which Balthazar was bound represent his inability to intervene.)

    When Balthazar was acting God of War, his position within the political entity that we call "The Six" was signified by humanity's possession of both Magdaer and Sohothin and, of course, a human king crowned in Ascalon. When Balthazar was dismissed, Sohothin passed out of human hands and Adelbern's line, his bloodline, died with him.

    Why did the gods cause the Foefire? To save humanity. They did so when Doric, another human king, appealed to them. Don't you think that, when Adelbern, Doric's distant relative, also appealed to them to preserve his peoples' souls from consumption by the charr, that the gods wouldn't also intervene?

    Humans are the gods chosen race.

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2020

    But how does the Foefire save humanity? More to the point, why only Ascalon? Why wasn't there a Foefire in Cantha or Kryta, in that case? It's certainly within the Gods power to engineer such. Whilst interesting, there is nothing to suggest that humanity will only lose wars without a God of War able to intervene. That's not really how the Gods work, mechanically speaking.

    The Foefire was a feat of magic performed by a desperate and mad human king, using an extremely powerful magical sword, the chances of it having anything to do with the Gods is very slim, and as stated flies in the face of the Gods stated reason for withdrawing from Tyria.

    I agree that humanity is the Gods chosen race, my reasoning behind that is much simpler though: The Gods filled a similar role to the Elder Dragons on the humans (and Forgotten's) old planet, and something went badly wrong which caused that planet to be destroyed, thus the Gods vowed to protect the remaining race of that planet out of guilt and a sense of duty.

    As for them continuing to hang around in some capacity, that's because they are quite clearly sentimental on some level. Lyssa did not want to leave at first, and was the last to agree to do so, Grenth specifically fought Dhuum to stop him consuming the souls of dead humans (A fact that makes the assertion that the Gods require human lifeforce in some manner all the more strange), Kormir doesn't require much explaining, Dwayna and Melandru have not been at all shown to have a bad bone in their bodies from the scant information we have on them. Balthazar was always the odd one out in the "angry uncle" sense, and that seems to have been a conclusion the Gods drew themselves when he had his fit at the prospect of them retreating rather than fight the Elder Dragons and cause yet more seas to turn into deserts and ultimately doom Tyria regardless, because even winning against the Elder Dragons means Tyria is destroyed. The Gods knew that, which is why they withdrew to avoid needing to fight the Elder Dragons.

    Furthermore, in terms of the Gods having 'grand designs', well, they do. It's Glint's and the Forgotten's plan for replacing the Elder Dragons. From Glint's memories we know that the Gods are involved, and certainly knew of the plan at the very least.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2020

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    But how does the Foefire save humanity? More to the point, why only Ascalon? Why wasn't there a Foefire in Cantha or Kryta, in that case? It's certainly within the Gods power to engineer such.

    The Foefire was a feat of magic performed by a desperate and mad human king, using an extremely powerful magical sword.

    There's no harm in thinking that Adelbern acted alone. Each to their own, I guess. I have a theory about how the gods influence mankind and how, in turn, mankind influences the gods. That is all.

    Why not Cantha? Well, Cantha is a little different. They didn't face the threat of the charr invasion, for one. I don't know why you've brought Cantha up? Can you please explain why?

    Kryta? Well, Kryta turned to the White Mantle. I imagine that the gods had something to do with that, too. How? Well, you won't like what I write lol.

    Orr? They are, in many respects, analogous to Cantha and the one northern Tyrian kingdom with which Abaddon strongly identified. They suffered a similar fate to Ascalon, but this time Abaddon did things his way. His fellow gods had very little to do with it. I guess, if you wanted my opinion, Abaddon did what he did because he was horrified by the Foefire and it's effects on mankind.

    EDIT: I am getting my chronology mixed up here. Please disregard this comment.

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2020

    But if you believe that the Gods have similar designs for all of humanity, why limit their schemes to one human kingdom that was already scoured? Genuine question because it seems a massive hole in your theory that they'd want the Foefire to happen and "show their hand" in such a fashion when the Charr were about to win and kill all the humans anyways.

    Cantha is by far the most populated human nation. If the Gods somehow wanted to 'Foefire' or equivalent all of humanity, they would have started there, and there is absolutely no indication that has happened. The closest is the Jade Wind, but that was caused indirectly by Abaddon and his grand revenge plot.

    I probably wouldn't no, not because I don't find the take interesting, but because there's no lore to support it. The Mursaat are responsible for the White Mantle, not the Gods, and the Mursaat certainly don't have a connection to the Gods.

    The Foefire happened long after Orr sunk. Abaddon was dead before the Foefire happened, and if you mean the Searing, then Abaddon also engineered that so being 'horrified' by it would be bizarre and not at all supported.

    And all this still doesn't take into account that the Gods had ready, permanent access to human souls and lifeforce regardless. They go to the Underworld and the Gods realms when they die, so the Foefire still defeats the purpose you yourself are theorising the Gods have because Foefire Ghosts do not go to the Underworld.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2020

    The only classification that really makes sense is Fallen God.

    Dhuum, Balthazar and Abaddon are all Fallen Gods who were once members of the Six.

    What we know from them.
    They do not blind mortals when looking on them.
    They are not as powerful as The Six however they still hold and can absorb a significant amount of power to still place them among the most powerful beings in existence.
    After being deposed, they retain their God bodies seemingly made up of pure energy/magic and they explode upon death, unleashing a devastating amount of magic.
    Upon death their power can be absorbed under the right circumstances to create a new God. (Kormir)
    Upon Falling they can still retain titles and dominion.. (Abaddon still being the God of Water and Secrets despite being deposed by The Six)

    What that says about Balthazar specificially is that he was fallen, deposed and imprisonsed in the mists just like Abaddon and Dhuum were.
    Stripped of his divine powers but still very much a God in whatever sense a Fallen God is still a God.
    He retained his God body much like Abaddon and Dhuum and was still a being of seemingly pure magical energy.
    He was no longer one of the Six/Five but it is not know if he was replaced by another being or not.
    No new God ascended upon Balthazars death due to his power being absorbed by Aurine and Kralkatorrik.
    While deposed he likely retained his Titles of God of War, Fire and Challenge unless he was replaced by a new and currently unknown/named God of War, Fire and Challenge.

    The real question that I'd like Anet to answer going forward is what will happen to the Six if there is no new God of War.
    Abaddon was still the God of Water and Secrets in Gw1 despite being deposed etc but Balthazar, his power was shoved down an Elder Dragon's throat..
    Not to mention that Elder Dragon was later killed as well and it's power was largely absorbed by Aurine who ascended into a new kind of Elder Dragon, one seemingly made out of Crystal and Light who has openly spoken about being both in Tyria and the Mists at the same time, suggesting she is connected to both.
    There are a lot of unanswered questions about what exactly Aurine is and her powers.
    Some have speculated myself included that she is some kind of Hybrid Elder Dragon and God like being but no confirmation of this has been made yet.

    She certainly radiates light similarly to a God though that's for sure although it does not blind like a God so she's defintiely not Divine like the Six/Five are.
    But her connection to the Mists may hint at her connection with Balthazars magic, Gods are deeply connected to the Mists, they have entire realms there and as far as we know they originate from it as well.
    Elder Dragons don't appear to be connected to the mists at all and Kralkatorrik only ventured there after absorbing a fallen God and the magic he had accumilated.
    Suffice to say I'd expect Aurine to possess most if not all of whatever power Balthazar left over upon his death, and while she isn't a God like the Six are, she may be something different but similar in many ways.. Perhaps that's also what Kralkatorrik was hinting at when he called her The First of her Kind.

    Until Anet fill in the blanks though it's just speculation.
    Balthazar is dead and his power is flowing largely or completely through Aurine.. that's all we know for sure.

    To end.
    Elder Dragons come from Tyria and Gods come from the Mists.. Aurine ascended after consuming the power of both of them and now appears to be connected to both Tyria and the Mists and can maintain a presence in both at the same time.
    I think based on that there is a good chance that Aurine is in a way both an Elder Dragon and a God.. however she definitely isn't one of the Six nor does she possess their kind of power.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    I probably wouldn't no, not because I don't find the take interesting, but because there's no lore to support it. The Mursaat are responsible for the White Mantle, not the Gods, and the Mursaat certainly don't have a connection to the Gods.

    Actually... it's possible that they might. We know that the mursaat collaborated with the Forgotten before their break with the other elder races. Furthermore, there is evidence that each of the other races might have some connection with the gods:

    • The Seers are stated to have used divine magic in the creation of the original Bloodstone. (Can't remember exactly where it was, but there's mention somewhere about how the Forgotten couldn't just make another Bloodstone to regulate magic today because they don't have the divine magic of the Seers. Oh, wait, now I remember - it was part of the lore collection in Tarir.)
    • Dwarves have their own Great Dwarf, but in GW1 there were also indications that they also revered at least some of the Six.
    • The Lost Thruln who appears every so often in Hoelbrak claims that the jotun were once favoured by the gods until humans supplied them - the Lost Thruln seems very much an unreliable source, but there might be some truth to this.

    The mursaat, in turn, also had subtle indications in GW1 that they were actually angry at the then-Five Gods.

    So I could see it being the case that all of the so-called Elder Races had some connection with the gods, possibly even being collectively the first group that they sent to Tyria before they brought humans across as well. Now, that may be taking the logic chain too far, but I think it can be said that the mursaat at the very least have had a past association with a race which is known to have been associated with the so-called human gods. It may not have been pure opportunism that they chose a human kingdom to take over.

    (Come to think on it, in fact, there's another link: the mursaat (and Seers) clearly knew about the Titans and the Door of Komalie.)

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2020

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    "They dimmed my light." Light often refers to 'divinity' when talking about Gods. The blinding aura when around Kormir is quite clearly caused by 'light'.

    "Balthazar has been stripped of his claim and title, he is no longer one of the Six." Title being "God of War" which requires divinity. Dhuum was no longer the "God of Death", because that was taken from him by Grenth, which included taking his power. In this instance, both claim and title mean the actual divine power that allows the God to take the name. There is no previous instance of a God that has lost it's divinity still claiming to be and referred to as a God, or even on the same power level as a God.

    Speaking of Dhuum, him continuing to be so damned powerful despite no longer being a God is yet further justification for Balthazar to not have his divinity - Even without it he was still monstrously powerful, just like Dhuum was. Thus, he was in the same state of Dhuum.

    I'm not in the same boat. I need a specific quote, revealing that Balthazar lost his divinity.

    And please don't get me wrong. I dig the speculation and the reasoning behind it. I just don't think it's quite as clear cut as it seems to some folks around here.

    I mean, the line from Kormir is a specific quote outright stating "he is no longer one of the Six." This tells us there are still Six Gods (otherwise they would once again be called The Five as they were in GW1 when Abaddon was kept secret, and is the name for the group that Kormir knew all of her mortal life and would have known for most of her divine life.

    The Balthazar line, which is the one ThatOddOne quoted, does indicate the same. The full line being: " They abated me, dimmed my light..." - abated meaning to "make less", again showing in a direct manner that he was made weak by them.

    Then there's the visual showing in-game that he is not a god by the fact that he does not cause blindness.

    And finally, to quote ANet devs (which you would find if you just looked at the wiki ):

    [...] it's important to remember that Balthazar's power level is not at the same level when the other gods stripped him of his power and chained him in the Mists. The power he wields in PoF is what he's gained since absorbing a bloodstone and Taimi's machine. [...]

    And before anyone goes "yes, he was stripped of power, but stripped of divinity?" But to the gods, that's one and the same thing. If you go back to GW1, when Abaddon dies:

    Kormir: "Yes I can! I can contain the power. This is the gift the avatars gave me!"
    [...]
    Kormir: "No. His power. His knowledge. But not him. His will is broken. There is a new god of secrets. There is a new day."

    It isn't "I can contain the divinity" it isn't "His divinity". It's "power".

    The source of their divinity has always been their power, that which becomes volatile when killed, and must be absorbed to become a god. What happened to Balthazar's power remains unknown, but by removing that power, they in turn removed his divinity. Same thing happened with Dhuum - and though both Dhuum and Balthazar regained a huge amount of power, it just wasn't the same as their original divine power.

    TL;DR Divinity = Power, but Power != Divinity

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