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Lich form to prevent application of boons other than stability.

Smoosh.2718Smoosh.2718 Member ✭✭✭

I'm coming across more and more players running Reaper with Lich form, stacking Quickness then quickly going into Lich Form, which allows them to fire off 2-4 Deathly Claws, wracking up to 18,000 damage in a few seconds.
Can this stop being over looked every single balance patch. Its beyond broken, reducing the uptime of the skill is not a fix to silly damage from a spammable skill.

Lich form has two ways it can go; Either the damage is nerfed on the skills and its duration is buffed again. Or you remove all boons from the player when they activate Lich form and prevent the application of everything bar Stability for the duration.

Lich form is not a fun mechanic in the game in its current state, it promotes bad play, and essentially cheesing your wins by spamming a skill you almost cant counter due to quickness spamming.

TOPIC DISCLAIMER - THIS IS NOT AN INVITE FOR PEOPLE TO POST 'LINE OF SIGHT THEM' OR 'ITS EASY TO COUNTER' *

*this skill is beyond defending in its current state (same with a few one trick ponies that are still in the game)

Comments

  • Smoosh.2718Smoosh.2718 Member ✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    uh, or they could get rid of the quickness pulses. instead of gutting lich. just a thought.

    Which I do agree to some extent on this one, Why on earth Reaper grants quickness while in shroud when traited is a mystery. However Boons and transforms need to go (other than the ones they are designed with (Rampage - Swiftness and Stab, Tornado - Stab and Lich form - Stab)), this then allows the actual skills to be balanced on consistant damage numbers with useful effects on each skill.

    Sadly Lich form has been an issue for a long time, yet its never actually touched. Sadly ontop of this CMC did say himself that the skill is 'fine, it has counters'... Right.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    uh, or they could get rid of the quickness pulses. instead of gutting lich. just a thought. that trait regardless of lich or not is bad for the game anyway.

    Or they could get rid of Lich form (and any non racial elite transformation skills). At this point I'm pretty sure we all know that those elite transformation always end up being abused in a gimmick or another.

    NB.: I do agree with what you say on Reaper's onslaught and it's quickness generation.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    uh, or they could get rid of the quickness pulses. instead of gutting lich. just a thought. that trait regardless of lich or not is bad for the game anyway.

    Or they could get rid of Lich form (and any non racial elite transformation skills). At this point I'm pretty sure we all know that those elite transformation always end up being abused in a gimmick or another.

    NB.: I do agree with what you say on Reaper's onslaught and it's quickness generation.

    Tell this to the devs playing necro 24/7 on stream...doubt you'll see that quickness trait going away anytime soon

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    uh, or they could get rid of the quickness pulses. instead of gutting lich. just a thought. that trait regardless of lich or not is bad for the game anyway.

    Or they could get rid of Lich form (and any non racial elite transformation skills). At this point I'm pretty sure we all know that those elite transformation always end up being abused in a gimmick or another.

    NB.: I do agree with what you say on Reaper's onslaught and it's quickness generation.

    Tell this to the devs playing necro 24/7 on stream...doubt you'll see that quickness trait going away anytime soon

    Well, if he knew that I also think that Death perception is just as OP... (I mean 300 ferocity and 33% crit chance on a single trait even if it's on a 50% uptime, that's pretty much OP)

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2020

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    uh, or they could get rid of the quickness pulses. instead of gutting lich. just a thought. that trait regardless of lich or not is bad for the game anyway.

    Or they could get rid of Lich form (and any non racial elite transformation skills). At this point I'm pretty sure we all know that those elite transformation always end up being abused in a gimmick or another.

    NB.: I do agree with what you say on Reaper's onslaught and it's quickness generation.

    ye hard disagree with this one. transforms can be fine, but maybe for game health it would be better to just scrap em all since anet can't seem to balance em. i hate the idea of getting rid of interesting and game altering mechanics just cuz its too hard tho, really grinds my gears. i still despise the plaguelands change, its trash. there is always the chance of the replacing skill being a non choice too... which is worse then late late late balance imo.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    uh, or they could get rid of the quickness pulses. instead of gutting lich. just a thought. that trait regardless of lich or not is bad for the game anyway.

    Or they could get rid of Lich form (and any non racial elite transformation skills). At this point I'm pretty sure we all know that those elite transformation always end up being abused in a gimmick or another.

    NB.: I do agree with what you say on Reaper's onslaught and it's quickness generation.

    ye hard disagree with this one. transforms can be fine, but maybe for game health it would be better to just scrap em all since anet can't seem to balance em. i hate the idea of getting rid of interesting and game altering mechanics just cuz its too hard tho, really grinds my gears. i still despise the plaguelands change, its trash. there is always the chance of the replacing skill being a non choice too... which is worse then late late late balance imo.

    The main issue with elite transformation skills thats I have is that they are basically a short uptime of overpowerness. In case of lich form I hate the visual on top of that, it's just ridiculous, huge and ugly (well some people might like the visual, it's natural to have different tastes in life, but I just can't stand it). On the opposite I had no grief toward plagueform, it wasn't making my eyes bleed and, while not transcendent, it was a useful elite transformation (God know how much I regret that they choose to change plagueform instead of lich form).

    Really, if it wasn't for the poor uptime I wouldn't mind tranformations as long as their skillsets aren't more effective than a core weapon. Unfortunately, they are the opposite of that: short uptime and gimmick level skillsets.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    uh, or they could get rid of the quickness pulses. instead of gutting lich. just a thought. that trait regardless of lich or not is bad for the game anyway.

    Or they could get rid of Lich form (and any non racial elite transformation skills). At this point I'm pretty sure we all know that those elite transformation always end up being abused in a gimmick or another.

    NB.: I do agree with what you say on Reaper's onslaught and it's quickness generation.

    ye hard disagree with this one. transforms can be fine, but maybe for game health it would be better to just scrap em all since anet can't seem to balance em. i hate the idea of getting rid of interesting and game altering mechanics just cuz its too hard tho, really grinds my gears. i still despise the plaguelands change, its trash. there is always the chance of the replacing skill being a non choice too... which is worse then late late late balance imo.

    They "can't" balance the elites they want....somehow some professions always get the good kitten , before it was plague then chill to the bone and now Lich form, then they add a GM trait with perma freaking quickness.

    Do people actually watch the GW2 streams? a freaking dev disagreeing with a player when he called necro OP , if this was an elementalist elite...it would have been nerfed to the ground and below a long time ago....oh wait...eles would never get such an elite to start with, at best we can get Tornado to spin around

  • @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Really, if it wasn't for the poor uptime I wouldn't mind tranformations as long as their skillsets aren't more effective than a core weapon.

    what? there would be no point to them then.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2020

    There are so many counters to Lich, it's a player's own fault for not using them. Well, on most classes anyway. Let's take a look realistically at who should be having problems with Lich and who shouldn't.

    • War - Enormous mobility to leave the Lich and LOS as freely as the War wishes. Standard Spellbreaker builds also have block and full counter on hand, along with 50% of their weapon skills & utilities being CCs to be able to break through the pulsing stab and stun the lich. The War can even have reflect on its shield to make the Lich hit itself. I don't see the problem here with War vs. Lich.
    • Guard - Usually not situated well for escape to LOS so it does end up often needing to tank Lich. However Guard has so so many blocks and an invuln. It also has enough damage to burst and down a Lich before he's even 3 or 4 auto casts in on the Guard. I dunno guys, the Guard's focus is 3x blocks and a single pop of f3 is a 4th block. The shield 4 is another aegis, the shield 5 is a reflect, and then Guard has invuln. Then if we're talking DH with f3 shield of courage, the blocking thickens, and if we're talking FB, the sheer amount of reflect bubbles just becomes overwhelming. I don't understand how a Guard isn't able to deal with Lich for 10s, unless the Lich is +ing him and creating a 2v1 against the Guard.
    • Rev - So many sources to deal with 10s ranged auto spam, including heal when hit, reflects, massive CC, evading while attacking, and pop Impossible Odds to get out and get to LOS. The Rev shouldn't be dying to Lich. At least not in a 1v1 situation.
    • Engi - Flashbang blind & auto passive CC in conjunction with all of the other CCs to stun the Lich. Lots of bubbles, lots of blockings, randomly stealth, randomly Moa elixir, lots and lots of damage, Flashbang, invuln, more Flashbang, strong mobility to get to LOS. The Engi shouldn't be dying to Lich unless he's getting +d by the Lich.
    • Thief - "I can outrun a centaur!!" comes to mind here. Why would you stay near the Lich when it goes into Lich? Just instantly teleport half way across the map to safety. Oh and also, stealth and more stealth and even more stealth. Dying to a Lich as a Thief is kind of potato. Sure, the Lich may surprise you, but that's your own fault as the Thief player who stayed in combat too long bottoming out his init & CDs when he didn't have any escape left to play on.
    • Ranger - Stealth LB3, Evade GS3, Block GS4, Evade LR, even more evades with weird sword/dagger builds, lots of mobility to quickly peel to LOS, plenty of CC that can be used to stun the Lich. Oh and by the way, why is the Necromancer alive to be able to Lich you if you are a LB Ranger? Even Druid builds have sources of reflect to play on. Ranger on 9/10 builds ran has everything it needs to defense play through a 10s Lich.
    • Mes - Pretty much same conclusion as Thief. GET OUT when it Liches. If you don't, that's your own fault. Your mobility & stealth & detargeting is in-design for a reason, use it. Mes also has the elite that super hard counters Lich, Signet Of Humility.
    • Necro - Mirror so no need to go into detail here. May the biggest Lich win.
    • Ele - Tempest & Weaver are very seriously the hardest targets in the game to hit with ranged attacks. Nothing more needs to be said.

    I feel like "Lich is OP" complaints are stemming from a place of frustration more than anything else. People know Lich is easy to play around, and that makes it extra frustrating when they aren't paying attention and end up dying to it. <- I've been talking about this for years now, and it is every bit the same effect that things like Ranger burst or Pistol/Pistol Thief or Rifle Deadeye has. These ranged attacks feel frustrating and OP at bell curve & bellow, but at higher tiered margins these ranged attacks are actually difficult to land effectively against stronger players because the stronger plays know all of the easy things they can do to completely avoid such slow immobile telegraphs.

    A bit of advice: When you fight a Necromancer, assume that Lich is going to happen and begin preparing for it early. Try that out for a day or two, and then come back into this thread and tell us all how OP Lich is.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Really, if it wasn't for the poor uptime I wouldn't mind tranformations as long as their skillsets aren't more effective than a core weapon.

    what? there would be no point to them then.

    there would be, think off engi kits but with larger cooldown, that you can use when your main set is on cooldown.
    Or they could make elites do specific things with medium cooldowns 70-90s, where they focus on CC for example, or area denial, or mobility.
    1 specific use and not broad I win thing that lich has and rampage used to have.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    People asking to nerf Tornado because it does too much dmg...then come here telling you to L2P and not complain about somebody popping out a 5-6k dmg AA spamming machine under the effects of quickness when possibly fighting somebody else , not paying attention and got caught with your pants down...all is fine.....

    Somebody capable of dealing 20k dmg within 2s by pressing 11111...is suddenly less dangerous than a slow moving target with no defenses and only capable of pushing you around..in case you fail to dodge something you see coming from a mile away and only moving in a vertical line.

    People asking to nerf freaking Tornado... and then tell you to L2P...what the actual......

  • Lighter.5631Lighter.5631 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2020

    i linked that implying that there's already an elite that work the same, anet is not going to make two elite exactly the same
    not sure why you link these for,
    are you ok?

  • Smoosh.2718Smoosh.2718 Member ✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    There are so many counters to Lich, it's a player's own fault for not using them. Well, on most classes anyway. Let's take a look realistically at who should be having problems with Lich and who shouldn't.

    • War - Enormous mobility to leave the Lich and LOS as freely as the War wishes. Standard Spellbreaker builds also have block and full counter on hand, along with 50% of their weapon skills & utilities being CCs to be able to break through the pulsing stab and stun the lich. The War can even have reflect on its shield to make the Lich hit itself. I don't see the problem here with War vs. Lich.
    • Guard - Usually not situated well for escape to LOS so it does end up often needing to tank Lich. However Guard has so so many blocks and an invuln. It also has enough damage to burst and down a Lich before he's even 3 or 4 auto casts in on the Guard. I dunno guys, the Guard's focus is 3x blocks and a single pop of f3 is a 4th block. The shield 4 is another aegis, the shield 5 is a reflect, and then Guard has invuln. Then if we're talking DH with f3 shield of courage, the blocking thickens, and if we're talking FB, the sheer amount of reflect bubbles just becomes overwhelming. I don't understand how a Guard isn't able to deal with Lich for 10s, unless the Lich is +ing him and creating a 2v1 against the Guard.
    • Rev - So many sources to deal with 10s ranged auto spam, including heal when hit, reflects, massive CC, evading while attacking, and pop Impossible Odds to get out and get to LOS. The Rev shouldn't be dying to Lich. At least not in a 1v1 situation.
    • Engi - Flashbang blind & auto passive CC in conjunction with all of the other CCs to stun the Lich. Lots of bubbles, lots of blockings, randomly stealth, randomly Moa elixir, lots and lots of damage, Flashbang, invuln, more Flashbang, strong mobility to get to LOS. The Engi shouldn't be dying to Lich unless he's getting +d by the Lich.
    • Thief - "I can outrun a centaur!!" comes to mind here. Why would you stay near the Lich when it goes into Lich? Just instantly teleport half way across the map to safety. Oh and also, stealth and more stealth and even more stealth. Dying to a Lich as a Thief is kind of potato. Sure, the Lich may surprise you, but that's your own fault as the Thief player who stayed in combat too long bottoming out his init & CDs when he didn't have any escape left to play on.
    • Ranger - Stealth LB3, Evade GS3, Block GS4, Evade LR, even more evades with weird sword/dagger builds, lots of mobility to quickly peel to LOS, plenty of CC that can be used to stun the Lich. Oh and by the way, why is the Necromancer alive to be able to Lich you if you are a LB Ranger? Even Druid builds have sources of reflect to play on. Ranger on 9/10 builds ran has everything it needs to defense play through a 10s Lich.
    • Mes - Pretty much same conclusion as Thief. GET OUT when it Liches. If you don't, that's your own fault. Your mobility & stealth & detargeting is in-design for a reason, use it. Mes also has the elite that super hard counters Lich, Signet Of Humility.
    • Necro - Mirror so no need to go into detail here. May the biggest Lich win.
    • Ele - Tempest & Weaver are very seriously the hardest targets in the game to hit with ranged attacks. Nothing more needs to be said.

    I feel like "Lich is OP" complaints are stemming from a place of frustration more than anything else. People know Lich is easy to play around, and that makes it extra frustrating when they aren't paying attention and end up dying to it. <- I've been talking about this for years now, and it is every bit the same effect that things like Ranger burst or Pistol/Pistol Thief or Rifle Deadeye has. These ranged attacks feel frustrating and OP at bell curve & bellow, but at higher tiered margins these ranged attacks are actually difficult to land effectively against stronger players because the stronger plays know all of the easy things they can do to completely avoid such slow immobile telegraphs.

    A bit of advice: When you fight a Necromancer, assume that Lich is going to happen and begin preparing for it early. Try that out for a day or two, and then come back into this thread and tell us all how OP Lich is.

    With this logic, give me the old damage on rampage, since you can run away or line of sight it. (There is a reason I had the disclaimer on this topic for this kind of post).

    Lich form is very easy to cheese, I have also seen a huge number of players abusing the Ripple of Horror into Deathly Claws while under quickness. Skills should not be in the game which have insane damage procs. I completely dissagree with the design of giving a win button to classes (like the oldschool rampage was (10k homing throw rock crits)).

    I'll add this disclaimer again:

    TOPIC DISCLAIMER - THIS IS NOT AN INVITE FOR PEOPLE TO POST 'LINE OF SIGHT THEM' OR 'ITS EASY TO COUNTER' *

    *this skill is beyond defending in its current state (same with a few one trick ponies that are still in the game)

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2020

    @Smoosh.2718 said:
    Which I do agree to some extent on this one, Why on earth Reaper grants quickness while in shroud when traited is a mystery.

    Based on the fact that the base attack speed of shroud is completely unviable since the PoF mechanics have been added to the game, I think anet wanted to buff it significantly but at the same time add a counter to it. So they made it corruptable to slow - which completely shuts it down for the slow uptime.

    Another thing to keep in mind is that self quickness does also limit the max attack speed increase. The speed might be be stacked higher than intended, if quickness could stack with another effect (like the old 15% attack speed increase pre onslaught rework).

    Lich Form: Yes it's dumb. It's dumb in synergy with quickness and it's dumb in synergy with unholy sanctuary. And transformations (except shroud itself of course!) are generally dumb. Please rework that elite!

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    From now on when people complain about other classes , the common answer should be : be prepared for it, and LoS

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2020

    @Smoosh.2718 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    There are so many counters to Lich, it's a player's own fault for not using them. Well, on most classes anyway. Let's take a look realistically at who should be having problems with Lich and who shouldn't.

    • War - Enormous mobility to leave the Lich and LOS as freely as the War wishes. Standard Spellbreaker builds also have block and full counter on hand, along with 50% of their weapon skills & utilities being CCs to be able to break through the pulsing stab and stun the lich. The War can even have reflect on its shield to make the Lich hit itself. I don't see the problem here with War vs. Lich.
    • Guard - Usually not situated well for escape to LOS so it does end up often needing to tank Lich. However Guard has so so many blocks and an invuln. It also has enough damage to burst and down a Lich before he's even 3 or 4 auto casts in on the Guard. I dunno guys, the Guard's focus is 3x blocks and a single pop of f3 is a 4th block. The shield 4 is another aegis, the shield 5 is a reflect, and then Guard has invuln. Then if we're talking DH with f3 shield of courage, the blocking thickens, and if we're talking FB, the sheer amount of reflect bubbles just becomes overwhelming. I don't understand how a Guard isn't able to deal with Lich for 10s, unless the Lich is +ing him and creating a 2v1 against the Guard.
    • Rev - So many sources to deal with 10s ranged auto spam, including heal when hit, reflects, massive CC, evading while attacking, and pop Impossible Odds to get out and get to LOS. The Rev shouldn't be dying to Lich. At least not in a 1v1 situation.
    • Engi - Flashbang blind & auto passive CC in conjunction with all of the other CCs to stun the Lich. Lots of bubbles, lots of blockings, randomly stealth, randomly Moa elixir, lots and lots of damage, Flashbang, invuln, more Flashbang, strong mobility to get to LOS. The Engi shouldn't be dying to Lich unless he's getting +d by the Lich.
    • Thief - "I can outrun a centaur!!" comes to mind here. Why would you stay near the Lich when it goes into Lich? Just instantly teleport half way across the map to safety. Oh and also, stealth and more stealth and even more stealth. Dying to a Lich as a Thief is kind of potato. Sure, the Lich may surprise you, but that's your own fault as the Thief player who stayed in combat too long bottoming out his init & CDs when he didn't have any escape left to play on.
    • Ranger - Stealth LB3, Evade GS3, Block GS4, Evade LR, even more evades with weird sword/dagger builds, lots of mobility to quickly peel to LOS, plenty of CC that can be used to stun the Lich. Oh and by the way, why is the Necromancer alive to be able to Lich you if you are a LB Ranger? Even Druid builds have sources of reflect to play on. Ranger on 9/10 builds ran has everything it needs to defense play through a 10s Lich.
    • Mes - Pretty much same conclusion as Thief. GET OUT when it Liches. If you don't, that's your own fault. Your mobility & stealth & detargeting is in-design for a reason, use it. Mes also has the elite that super hard counters Lich, Signet Of Humility.
    • Necro - Mirror so no need to go into detail here. May the biggest Lich win.
    • Ele - Tempest & Weaver are very seriously the hardest targets in the game to hit with ranged attacks. Nothing more needs to be said.

    I feel like "Lich is OP" complaints are stemming from a place of frustration more than anything else. People know Lich is easy to play around, and that makes it extra frustrating when they aren't paying attention and end up dying to it. <- I've been talking about this for years now, and it is every bit the same effect that things like Ranger burst or Pistol/Pistol Thief or Rifle Deadeye has. These ranged attacks feel frustrating and OP at bell curve & bellow, but at higher tiered margins these ranged attacks are actually difficult to land effectively against stronger players because the stronger plays know all of the easy things they can do to completely avoid such slow immobile telegraphs.

    A bit of advice: When you fight a Necromancer, assume that Lich is going to happen and begin preparing for it early. Try that out for a day or two, and then come back into this thread and tell us all how OP Lich is.

    With this logic, give me the old damage on rampage, since you can run away or line of sight it. (There is a reason I had the disclaimer on this topic for this kind of post).

    Not really a good comparison. Rampage had a ton of CCs and a ton of damage and a ton of gap closers so you couldn't escape the Rampage.

    Lich has 1 aoe fear which gets to be used once per transform and the Lich is very very slow and immobile. All the Lich has is damage which can be LOSed and reflected, unlike all of the massive hard hitting aoe cleaves with CCs attached from Rampage.

    I know "it deals a lot of damage" but this is truly another l2p issue. Saying that "by this logic" as if my bulleted commentary didn't very accurately describe the tools to be used for those classes, just kind of self encourages a refusal to identify what one could be doing better vs. the Lich, that they could easily be doing to avoid the Lich entirely if it's such a problem.

    Look, I generally play at a p2 level and run probably AT LEAST 3 to 4 ATs a day and that's when we don't even have a cool event to make twice as many ATs as normal. My teams are often against the top 20 top 50 players in NA, including all of the best Necromancer players. I play a glass cannon full berserker/eagle sic em/one wolf Soulbeast that has no defenses beyond GS3, GS4, LB3, Light Ref. I can die to a Lich in two hits. But when a person Liches, I just go away from it. Due to this, I rarely rarely ever die to a Lich. Sometimes I get hit by it, but I don't die to it because I go away from it.

    The difference I notice between say G2 G3 bottom P1 vs. P2+ in that situation, is that P2+ has the mind frame going into combat that "I know the Necromancer is going to Lich so when it happens, I am going to make sure I save a CD to be able to get away from it or defensively tank through it." They are prepared for the obvious, and as soon as a Necro Liches, people pop reflect bubbles, people get real aggressive against it with CC, or they stealth & teleport away to LOS. But the G2 G3 and sometimes bottom P1, they go into a combat vs. a Necro and every single time a Necro Liches, they are so surprised and appalled that it happened, as if it weren't obvious that it would happen. They go in vs. a tanky Necro that they can't kill, that is dealing low damage or is easy to kite, and every single time they are lulled into this feeling of safety as if "The Core Necro is tanky but it can't kill me so Ima go ham on it and burn all CDs. The Reaper deals a lot of damage but it's melee so Ima kite around it and burn all my CDs" and then every single time the Lich happens, they are surprised and caught off guard and frustrated that they have no CDs and get caught. Why do they do this when they KNOW the Lich is going to happen?

    Look, I'll say it again:

    A bit of advice: When you fight a Necromancer, assume that Lich is going to happen and begin preparing for it early. Save a CD or two to ensure safe disengagement.

    With all due respect, I really am not trying to sound offensive. But seriously guys.. this is a really simple l2p issue to get around. I feel like people are complaining because they "can't trade blows with the lich". It seems like a lot of people giving feedback in this forum just want the game to be trading blows and spammy auto 1 mashing with no real regard for a grander scheme of mechanics for playing around specific types of abilities or styles. People seem to just get upset when something deals more damage than they are dealing, regardless of some glaring mechanical flaw that can be exploited to get around the heavy damage. It would seem that people are only happy when equal damage and sustain looks to be happening while button mashing and face tanking each other on nodes without ever needing to leave the node.

    ^ This is really not how the game was designed and tbh I really don't want it to go that far down the road of watered down skill cap. But w/e, if that's what the community wants I'm sure that's what they'll get. Just be careful what you ask for.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2020

    Escaping a speed rune lich with quickness isn't trivial. Of course it has counters and the cooldown is huge, but it is also a game changer, which one skill should never be - not even have to potential to be. For example the game changing potential of battle standard is also broken even though the cooldown is huge and the cast time very long.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    Escaping a speed rune lich with quickness isn't trivial. Of course it has counters and the cooldown is huge, but it is also a game changer, which one skill should never be - not even have to potential to be. For example the game changing potential of battle standard is also broken even though the cooldown is huge and the cast time very long.

    Completely agree.

    I was going to add that if anything, the problem is too much self quickness on a Necro.

    The problem really isn't Lich in the absence of self quickness propagation.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/113396/intra-class-balance-dynamic-my-perspectives-things-id-like-to-see-happen-8-29-2020/p1
    An example of as long as it doesn't counter me...it's balanced!

    "Because I can pewpew necros from 1500 range...the class is balanced, ele though...curb nerf it to the ground".....something along these lines

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2020

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    From now on when people complain about other classes , the common answer should be : be prepared for it, and LoS

    100% true though

    But for w/e reason any & all players bellow about 1550 seem to have problems understanding the sheer raw pulsing infinity stone like power that comes from standing behind an object so that projectiles can't hit you.

    I mean seriously, when you watch footage of the difference between low plat to G3 or under vs. p2+, the biggest thing that makes the difference between above or bellow the bell curve, is understanding how to kite & LOS.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2020

    We are witnessing the result of an evolution that has been obvious for everyne that actually understands the necro class.

    Necro has always been an immobile profession. I did always say just give it more mobility! Everything else is problematic in the long term.

    What happened instead:

    • the game got a lot more overal pacing, which left necro behind
    • anet designed aoe for scourge, which was highly problematic in terms of scaling but solved nothing in small scale
    • anet buffed the damage for reaper, which solved nothing because the spec was too slow
    • anet buffed the tankyness for core, which solved nothing because the spec dealt not enough damage
    • anet added quickness for reaper and then for core too
    • now we have a tanky quickness mess for core and a bursty quickness mess for reaper (scourge is just an overall mess)

    They could just have left everything like it has been in HoT, but increase the pve damage multipliers and make wurm instant cast.

    Fun Fact: It's not just lich. Quickness wurm cast and speed rune spectral walk are also broken now, which has never been intended. That's the most laughable part. Oh no wait, we are still hardcountered by thieves... that is it.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    We are witnessing the result of an evolution that has been obvious for everyne that actually understands the necro class.

    Necro has always been an immobile profession. I did always say just give it more mobility! Everything else is problematic in the long term.

    What happened instead:

    • the game got a lot more overal pacing, which left necro behind
    • anet designed aoe for scourge, which was highly problematic in terms of scaling but solved nothing in small scale
    • anet buffed the damage for reaper, which solved nothing because the spec was too slow
    • anet buffed the tankyness for core, which solved nothing because the spec dealt not enough damage
    • anet added quickness for reaper and then for core too
    • now we have a tanky quickness mess for core and a bursty quickness mess for reaper (scourge is just an overall mess)

    They could just have left everything like it has been in HoT, but increase the pve damage multipliers and make wurm instant cast.

    Fun Fact: It's not just lich. Quickness wurm cast and speed rune spectral walk are also broken now, which has never been intended. That's the most laughable part. Oh no wait, we are still hardcountered by thieves... that is it.

    All these busted traits are designed to remove any kind of stat weakness a pure glass cannon could suffer from:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death_Perception
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper's_Onslaught

    No Pre-requirement ...just press F1 to get all the goodies , close 40% crit chance and 200% crit dmg from base level and if we compare this to ele with https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elements_of_Rage which was nerfed while giving far less ferocity than current Necro traits, even if used in conjunction with the Air traitline sacrificing sustain in the process....

  • @Smoosh.2718 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    There are so many counters to Lich, it's a player's own fault for not using them. Well, on most classes anyway. Let's take a look realistically at who should be having problems with Lich and who shouldn't.

    • War - Enormous mobility to leave the Lich and LOS as freely as the War wishes. Standard Spellbreaker builds also have block and full counter on hand, along with 50% of their weapon skills & utilities being CCs to be able to break through the pulsing stab and stun the lich. The War can even have reflect on its shield to make the Lich hit itself. I don't see the problem here with War vs. Lich.
    • Guard - Usually not situated well for escape to LOS so it does end up often needing to tank Lich. However Guard has so so many blocks and an invuln. It also has enough damage to burst and down a Lich before he's even 3 or 4 auto casts in on the Guard. I dunno guys, the Guard's focus is 3x blocks and a single pop of f3 is a 4th block. The shield 4 is another aegis, the shield 5 is a reflect, and then Guard has invuln. Then if we're talking DH with f3 shield of courage, the blocking thickens, and if we're talking FB, the sheer amount of reflect bubbles just becomes overwhelming. I don't understand how a Guard isn't able to deal with Lich for 10s, unless the Lich is +ing him and creating a 2v1 against the Guard.
    • Rev - So many sources to deal with 10s ranged auto spam, including heal when hit, reflects, massive CC, evading while attacking, and pop Impossible Odds to get out and get to LOS. The Rev shouldn't be dying to Lich. At least not in a 1v1 situation.
    • Engi - Flashbang blind & auto passive CC in conjunction with all of the other CCs to stun the Lich. Lots of bubbles, lots of blockings, randomly stealth, randomly Moa elixir, lots and lots of damage, Flashbang, invuln, more Flashbang, strong mobility to get to LOS. The Engi shouldn't be dying to Lich unless he's getting +d by the Lich.
    • Thief - "I can outrun a centaur!!" comes to mind here. Why would you stay near the Lich when it goes into Lich? Just instantly teleport half way across the map to safety. Oh and also, stealth and more stealth and even more stealth. Dying to a Lich as a Thief is kind of potato. Sure, the Lich may surprise you, but that's your own fault as the Thief player who stayed in combat too long bottoming out his init & CDs when he didn't have any escape left to play on.
    • Ranger - Stealth LB3, Evade GS3, Block GS4, Evade LR, even more evades with weird sword/dagger builds, lots of mobility to quickly peel to LOS, plenty of CC that can be used to stun the Lich. Oh and by the way, why is the Necromancer alive to be able to Lich you if you are a LB Ranger? Even Druid builds have sources of reflect to play on. Ranger on 9/10 builds ran has everything it needs to defense play through a 10s Lich.
    • Mes - Pretty much same conclusion as Thief. GET OUT when it Liches. If you don't, that's your own fault. Your mobility & stealth & detargeting is in-design for a reason, use it. Mes also has the elite that super hard counters Lich, Signet Of Humility.
    • Necro - Mirror so no need to go into detail here. May the biggest Lich win.
    • Ele - Tempest & Weaver are very seriously the hardest targets in the game to hit with ranged attacks. Nothing more needs to be said.

    I feel like "Lich is OP" complaints are stemming from a place of frustration more than anything else. People know Lich is easy to play around, and that makes it extra frustrating when they aren't paying attention and end up dying to it. <- I've been talking about this for years now, and it is every bit the same effect that things like Ranger burst or Pistol/Pistol Thief or Rifle Deadeye has. These ranged attacks feel frustrating and OP at bell curve & bellow, but at higher tiered margins these ranged attacks are actually difficult to land effectively against stronger players because the stronger plays know all of the easy things they can do to completely avoid such slow immobile telegraphs.

    A bit of advice: When you fight a Necromancer, assume that Lich is going to happen and begin preparing for it early. Try that out for a day or two, and then come back into this thread and tell us all how OP Lich is.

    With this logic, give me the old damage on rampage, since you can run away or line of sight it. (There is a reason I had the disclaimer on this topic for this kind of post).

    Lich form is very easy to cheese, I have also seen a huge number of players abusing the Ripple of Horror into Deathly Claws while under quickness. Skills should not be in the game which have insane damage procs. I completely dissagree with the design of giving a win button to classes (like the oldschool rampage was (10k homing throw rock crits)).

    I'll add this disclaimer again:

    TOPIC DISCLAIMER - THIS IS NOT AN INVITE FOR PEOPLE TO POST 'LINE OF SIGHT THEM' OR 'ITS EASY TO COUNTER' *

    *this skill is beyond defending in its current state (same with a few one trick ponies that are still in the game)

    "DON'T MENTION ANY OF THE MILLION THINGS THAT COUNTER OR NEUTRALIZE LICH, DANGIT! IT'S DAMNING TO MY BASELESS ASSERTION THAT THEY ARE UNSTOPPABLE GODS WHO NEED TO BE 99% NERFED AND HAVE THEIR ACCOUNTS BANNED!!!"

    If I can survive lich with a scourge minion-mancer, you have no excuse. I literally just use LOS and dodges with barrier and carapace, same as always. And I suck, so I'm not outplaying anyone with my no-mobility build. Stay alive for 10 seconds MAYBE 3 times a game. That's it.

  • Azreell.1568Azreell.1568 Member ✭✭✭

    To clarify - the cliff note version of the original posters topic is:

    I don’t feel that I should have to move when being focused by an elite ability with a large cool down.

    And just when I thought the nerf posts couldn’t get any more silly, someone always surprises me..........

  • @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Smoosh.2718 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    There are so many counters to Lich, it's a player's own fault for not using them. Well, on most classes anyway. Let's take a look realistically at who should be having problems with Lich and who shouldn't.

    • War - Enormous mobility to leave the Lich and LOS as freely as the War wishes. Standard Spellbreaker builds also have block and full counter on hand, along with 50% of their weapon skills & utilities being CCs to be able to break through the pulsing stab and stun the lich. The War can even have reflect on its shield to make the Lich hit itself. I don't see the problem here with War vs. Lich.
    • Guard - Usually not situated well for escape to LOS so it does end up often needing to tank Lich. However Guard has so so many blocks and an invuln. It also has enough damage to burst and down a Lich before he's even 3 or 4 auto casts in on the Guard. I dunno guys, the Guard's focus is 3x blocks and a single pop of f3 is a 4th block. The shield 4 is another aegis, the shield 5 is a reflect, and then Guard has invuln. Then if we're talking DH with f3 shield of courage, the blocking thickens, and if we're talking FB, the sheer amount of reflect bubbles just becomes overwhelming. I don't understand how a Guard isn't able to deal with Lich for 10s, unless the Lich is +ing him and creating a 2v1 against the Guard.
    • Rev - So many sources to deal with 10s ranged auto spam, including heal when hit, reflects, massive CC, evading while attacking, and pop Impossible Odds to get out and get to LOS. The Rev shouldn't be dying to Lich. At least not in a 1v1 situation.
    • Engi - Flashbang blind & auto passive CC in conjunction with all of the other CCs to stun the Lich. Lots of bubbles, lots of blockings, randomly stealth, randomly Moa elixir, lots and lots of damage, Flashbang, invuln, more Flashbang, strong mobility to get to LOS. The Engi shouldn't be dying to Lich unless he's getting +d by the Lich.
    • Thief - "I can outrun a centaur!!" comes to mind here. Why would you stay near the Lich when it goes into Lich? Just instantly teleport half way across the map to safety. Oh and also, stealth and more stealth and even more stealth. Dying to a Lich as a Thief is kind of potato. Sure, the Lich may surprise you, but that's your own fault as the Thief player who stayed in combat too long bottoming out his init & CDs when he didn't have any escape left to play on.
    • Ranger - Stealth LB3, Evade GS3, Block GS4, Evade LR, even more evades with weird sword/dagger builds, lots of mobility to quickly peel to LOS, plenty of CC that can be used to stun the Lich. Oh and by the way, why is the Necromancer alive to be able to Lich you if you are a LB Ranger? Even Druid builds have sources of reflect to play on. Ranger on 9/10 builds ran has everything it needs to defense play through a 10s Lich.
    • Mes - Pretty much same conclusion as Thief. GET OUT when it Liches. If you don't, that's your own fault. Your mobility & stealth & detargeting is in-design for a reason, use it. Mes also has the elite that super hard counters Lich, Signet Of Humility.
    • Necro - Mirror so no need to go into detail here. May the biggest Lich win.
    • Ele - Tempest & Weaver are very seriously the hardest targets in the game to hit with ranged attacks. Nothing more needs to be said.

    I feel like "Lich is OP" complaints are stemming from a place of frustration more than anything else. People know Lich is easy to play around, and that makes it extra frustrating when they aren't paying attention and end up dying to it. <- I've been talking about this for years now, and it is every bit the same effect that things like Ranger burst or Pistol/Pistol Thief or Rifle Deadeye has. These ranged attacks feel frustrating and OP at bell curve & bellow, but at higher tiered margins these ranged attacks are actually difficult to land effectively against stronger players because the stronger plays know all of the easy things they can do to completely avoid such slow immobile telegraphs.

    A bit of advice: When you fight a Necromancer, assume that Lich is going to happen and begin preparing for it early. Try that out for a day or two, and then come back into this thread and tell us all how OP Lich is.

    With this logic, give me the old damage on rampage, since you can run away or line of sight it. (There is a reason I had the disclaimer on this topic for this kind of post).

    Lich form is very easy to cheese, I have also seen a huge number of players abusing the Ripple of Horror into Deathly Claws while under quickness. Skills should not be in the game which have insane damage procs. I completely dissagree with the design of giving a win button to classes (like the oldschool rampage was (10k homing throw rock crits)).

    I'll add this disclaimer again:

    TOPIC DISCLAIMER - THIS IS NOT AN INVITE FOR PEOPLE TO POST 'LINE OF SIGHT THEM' OR 'ITS EASY TO COUNTER' *

    *this skill is beyond defending in its current state (same with a few one trick ponies that are still in the game)

    "DON'T MENTION ANY OF THE MILLION THINGS THAT COUNTER OR NEUTRALIZE LICH, DANGIT! IT'S DAMNING TO MY BASELESS ASSERTION THAT THEY ARE UNSTOPPABLE GODS WHO NEED TO BE 99% NERFED AND HAVE THEIR ACCOUNTS BANNED!!!"

    If I can survive lich with a scourge minion-mancer, you have no excuse. I literally just use LOS and dodges with barrier and carapace, same as always. And I suck, so I'm not outplaying anyone with my no-mobility build. Stay alive for 10 seconds MAYBE 3 times a game. That's it.

    Hyperbolic much? It's not a baseless assertion when 3 hits from a Lich will kill just about everything. Oh, you're hyper toughness and barrier loaded build survived it? Congrats, anyone else who doesn't have a projectile block gets dumpstered. Also, this isn't the Arena; instant LoS access isn't always available and sometimes the shots will just ignore the object and hit you around them anyway.

    How about we make lich not get ruined by projectile blocks but not destroy anything that doesn't save one specifically for Lich?

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    uh, or they could get rid of the quickness pulses. instead of gutting lich. just a thought. that trait regardless of lich or not is bad for the game anyway.

    Honestly now that we have Dread GM trait from Spite, we do not need Reaper's Onslaught to pulse Quickness anymore.
    If Quickness from Reaper's Onslaught were to go, people in PvE won't miss it either.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Smoosh.2718 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    There are so many counters to Lich, it's a player's own fault for not using them. Well, on most classes anyway. Let's take a look realistically at who should be having problems with Lich and who shouldn't.

    • War - Enormous mobility to leave the Lich and LOS as freely as the War wishes. Standard Spellbreaker builds also have block and full counter on hand, along with 50% of their weapon skills & utilities being CCs to be able to break through the pulsing stab and stun the lich. The War can even have reflect on its shield to make the Lich hit itself. I don't see the problem here with War vs. Lich.
    • Guard - Usually not situated well for escape to LOS so it does end up often needing to tank Lich. However Guard has so so many blocks and an invuln. It also has enough damage to burst and down a Lich before he's even 3 or 4 auto casts in on the Guard. I dunno guys, the Guard's focus is 3x blocks and a single pop of f3 is a 4th block. The shield 4 is another aegis, the shield 5 is a reflect, and then Guard has invuln. Then if we're talking DH with f3 shield of courage, the blocking thickens, and if we're talking FB, the sheer amount of reflect bubbles just becomes overwhelming. I don't understand how a Guard isn't able to deal with Lich for 10s, unless the Lich is +ing him and creating a 2v1 against the Guard.
    • Rev - So many sources to deal with 10s ranged auto spam, including heal when hit, reflects, massive CC, evading while attacking, and pop Impossible Odds to get out and get to LOS. The Rev shouldn't be dying to Lich. At least not in a 1v1 situation.
    • Engi - Flashbang blind & auto passive CC in conjunction with all of the other CCs to stun the Lich. Lots of bubbles, lots of blockings, randomly stealth, randomly Moa elixir, lots and lots of damage, Flashbang, invuln, more Flashbang, strong mobility to get to LOS. The Engi shouldn't be dying to Lich unless he's getting +d by the Lich.
    • Thief - "I can outrun a centaur!!" comes to mind here. Why would you stay near the Lich when it goes into Lich? Just instantly teleport half way across the map to safety. Oh and also, stealth and more stealth and even more stealth. Dying to a Lich as a Thief is kind of potato. Sure, the Lich may surprise you, but that's your own fault as the Thief player who stayed in combat too long bottoming out his init & CDs when he didn't have any escape left to play on.
    • Ranger - Stealth LB3, Evade GS3, Block GS4, Evade LR, even more evades with weird sword/dagger builds, lots of mobility to quickly peel to LOS, plenty of CC that can be used to stun the Lich. Oh and by the way, why is the Necromancer alive to be able to Lich you if you are a LB Ranger? Even Druid builds have sources of reflect to play on. Ranger on 9/10 builds ran has everything it needs to defense play through a 10s Lich.
    • Mes - Pretty much same conclusion as Thief. GET OUT when it Liches. If you don't, that's your own fault. Your mobility & stealth & detargeting is in-design for a reason, use it. Mes also has the elite that super hard counters Lich, Signet Of Humility.
    • Necro - Mirror so no need to go into detail here. May the biggest Lich win.
    • Ele - Tempest & Weaver are very seriously the hardest targets in the game to hit with ranged attacks. Nothing more needs to be said.

    I feel like "Lich is OP" complaints are stemming from a place of frustration more than anything else. People know Lich is easy to play around, and that makes it extra frustrating when they aren't paying attention and end up dying to it. <- I've been talking about this for years now, and it is every bit the same effect that things like Ranger burst or Pistol/Pistol Thief or Rifle Deadeye has. These ranged attacks feel frustrating and OP at bell curve & bellow, but at higher tiered margins these ranged attacks are actually difficult to land effectively against stronger players because the stronger plays know all of the easy things they can do to completely avoid such slow immobile telegraphs.

    A bit of advice: When you fight a Necromancer, assume that Lich is going to happen and begin preparing for it early. Try that out for a day or two, and then come back into this thread and tell us all how OP Lich is.

    With this logic, give me the old damage on rampage, since you can run away or line of sight it. (There is a reason I had the disclaimer on this topic for this kind of post).

    Lich form is very easy to cheese, I have also seen a huge number of players abusing the Ripple of Horror into Deathly Claws while under quickness. Skills should not be in the game which have insane damage procs. I completely dissagree with the design of giving a win button to classes (like the oldschool rampage was (10k homing throw rock crits)).

    I'll add this disclaimer again:

    TOPIC DISCLAIMER - THIS IS NOT AN INVITE FOR PEOPLE TO POST 'LINE OF SIGHT THEM' OR 'ITS EASY TO COUNTER' *

    *this skill is beyond defending in its current state (same with a few one trick ponies that are still in the game)

    "DON'T MENTION ANY OF THE MILLION THINGS THAT COUNTER OR NEUTRALIZE LICH, DANGIT! IT'S DAMNING TO MY BASELESS ASSERTION THAT THEY ARE UNSTOPPABLE GODS WHO NEED TO BE 99% NERFED AND HAVE THEIR ACCOUNTS BANNED!!!"

    If I can survive lich with a scourge minion-mancer, you have no excuse. I literally just use LOS and dodges with barrier and carapace, same as always. And I suck, so I'm not outplaying anyone with my no-mobility build. Stay alive for 10 seconds MAYBE 3 times a game. That's it.

    Hyperbolic much? It's not a baseless assertion when 3 hits from a Lich will kill just about everything. Oh, you're hyper toughness and barrier loaded build survived it? Congrats, anyone else who doesn't have a projectile block gets dumpstered. Also, this isn't the Arena; instant LoS access isn't always available and sometimes the shots will just ignore the object and hit you around them anyway.

    How about we make lich not get ruined by projectile blocks but not destroy anything that doesn't save one specifically for Lich?

    In other words, no build should have hard counters? I disagree. This game would be boooooooring with that type of homogenization.

  • @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Smoosh.2718 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    There are so many counters to Lich, it's a player's own fault for not using them. Well, on most classes anyway. Let's take a look realistically at who should be having problems with Lich and who shouldn't.

    • War - Enormous mobility to leave the Lich and LOS as freely as the War wishes. Standard Spellbreaker builds also have block and full counter on hand, along with 50% of their weapon skills & utilities being CCs to be able to break through the pulsing stab and stun the lich. The War can even have reflect on its shield to make the Lich hit itself. I don't see the problem here with War vs. Lich.
    • Guard - Usually not situated well for escape to LOS so it does end up often needing to tank Lich. However Guard has so so many blocks and an invuln. It also has enough damage to burst and down a Lich before he's even 3 or 4 auto casts in on the Guard. I dunno guys, the Guard's focus is 3x blocks and a single pop of f3 is a 4th block. The shield 4 is another aegis, the shield 5 is a reflect, and then Guard has invuln. Then if we're talking DH with f3 shield of courage, the blocking thickens, and if we're talking FB, the sheer amount of reflect bubbles just becomes overwhelming. I don't understand how a Guard isn't able to deal with Lich for 10s, unless the Lich is +ing him and creating a 2v1 against the Guard.
    • Rev - So many sources to deal with 10s ranged auto spam, including heal when hit, reflects, massive CC, evading while attacking, and pop Impossible Odds to get out and get to LOS. The Rev shouldn't be dying to Lich. At least not in a 1v1 situation.
    • Engi - Flashbang blind & auto passive CC in conjunction with all of the other CCs to stun the Lich. Lots of bubbles, lots of blockings, randomly stealth, randomly Moa elixir, lots and lots of damage, Flashbang, invuln, more Flashbang, strong mobility to get to LOS. The Engi shouldn't be dying to Lich unless he's getting +d by the Lich.
    • Thief - "I can outrun a centaur!!" comes to mind here. Why would you stay near the Lich when it goes into Lich? Just instantly teleport half way across the map to safety. Oh and also, stealth and more stealth and even more stealth. Dying to a Lich as a Thief is kind of potato. Sure, the Lich may surprise you, but that's your own fault as the Thief player who stayed in combat too long bottoming out his init & CDs when he didn't have any escape left to play on.
    • Ranger - Stealth LB3, Evade GS3, Block GS4, Evade LR, even more evades with weird sword/dagger builds, lots of mobility to quickly peel to LOS, plenty of CC that can be used to stun the Lich. Oh and by the way, why is the Necromancer alive to be able to Lich you if you are a LB Ranger? Even Druid builds have sources of reflect to play on. Ranger on 9/10 builds ran has everything it needs to defense play through a 10s Lich.
    • Mes - Pretty much same conclusion as Thief. GET OUT when it Liches. If you don't, that's your own fault. Your mobility & stealth & detargeting is in-design for a reason, use it. Mes also has the elite that super hard counters Lich, Signet Of Humility.
    • Necro - Mirror so no need to go into detail here. May the biggest Lich win.
    • Ele - Tempest & Weaver are very seriously the hardest targets in the game to hit with ranged attacks. Nothing more needs to be said.

    I feel like "Lich is OP" complaints are stemming from a place of frustration more than anything else. People know Lich is easy to play around, and that makes it extra frustrating when they aren't paying attention and end up dying to it. <- I've been talking about this for years now, and it is every bit the same effect that things like Ranger burst or Pistol/Pistol Thief or Rifle Deadeye has. These ranged attacks feel frustrating and OP at bell curve & bellow, but at higher tiered margins these ranged attacks are actually difficult to land effectively against stronger players because the stronger plays know all of the easy things they can do to completely avoid such slow immobile telegraphs.

    A bit of advice: When you fight a Necromancer, assume that Lich is going to happen and begin preparing for it early. Try that out for a day or two, and then come back into this thread and tell us all how OP Lich is.

    With this logic, give me the old damage on rampage, since you can run away or line of sight it. (There is a reason I had the disclaimer on this topic for this kind of post).

    Lich form is very easy to cheese, I have also seen a huge number of players abusing the Ripple of Horror into Deathly Claws while under quickness. Skills should not be in the game which have insane damage procs. I completely dissagree with the design of giving a win button to classes (like the oldschool rampage was (10k homing throw rock crits)).

    I'll add this disclaimer again:

    TOPIC DISCLAIMER - THIS IS NOT AN INVITE FOR PEOPLE TO POST 'LINE OF SIGHT THEM' OR 'ITS EASY TO COUNTER' *

    *this skill is beyond defending in its current state (same with a few one trick ponies that are still in the game)

    "DON'T MENTION ANY OF THE MILLION THINGS THAT COUNTER OR NEUTRALIZE LICH, DANGIT! IT'S DAMNING TO MY BASELESS ASSERTION THAT THEY ARE UNSTOPPABLE GODS WHO NEED TO BE 99% NERFED AND HAVE THEIR ACCOUNTS BANNED!!!"

    If I can survive lich with a scourge minion-mancer, you have no excuse. I literally just use LOS and dodges with barrier and carapace, same as always. And I suck, so I'm not outplaying anyone with my no-mobility build. Stay alive for 10 seconds MAYBE 3 times a game. That's it.

    Hyperbolic much? It's not a baseless assertion when 3 hits from a Lich will kill just about everything. Oh, you're hyper toughness and barrier loaded build survived it? Congrats, anyone else who doesn't have a projectile block gets dumpstered. Also, this isn't the Arena; instant LoS access isn't always available and sometimes the shots will just ignore the object and hit you around them anyway.

    How about we make lich not get ruined by projectile blocks but not destroy anything that doesn't save one specifically for Lich?

    In other words, no build should have hard counters? I disagree. This game would be boooooooring with that type of homogenization.

    Lich form isn't a build.

  • Azreell.1568Azreell.1568 Member ✭✭✭

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Smoosh.2718 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    There are so many counters to Lich, it's a player's own fault for not using them. Well, on most classes anyway. Let's take a look realistically at who should be having problems with Lich and who shouldn't.

    • War - Enormous mobility to leave the Lich and LOS as freely as the War wishes. Standard Spellbreaker builds also have block and full counter on hand, along with 50% of their weapon skills & utilities being CCs to be able to break through the pulsing stab and stun the lich. The War can even have reflect on its shield to make the Lich hit itself. I don't see the problem here with War vs. Lich.
    • Guard - Usually not situated well for escape to LOS so it does end up often needing to tank Lich. However Guard has so so many blocks and an invuln. It also has enough damage to burst and down a Lich before he's even 3 or 4 auto casts in on the Guard. I dunno guys, the Guard's focus is 3x blocks and a single pop of f3 is a 4th block. The shield 4 is another aegis, the shield 5 is a reflect, and then Guard has invuln. Then if we're talking DH with f3 shield of courage, the blocking thickens, and if we're talking FB, the sheer amount of reflect bubbles just becomes overwhelming. I don't understand how a Guard isn't able to deal with Lich for 10s, unless the Lich is +ing him and creating a 2v1 against the Guard.
    • Rev - So many sources to deal with 10s ranged auto spam, including heal when hit, reflects, massive CC, evading while attacking, and pop Impossible Odds to get out and get to LOS. The Rev shouldn't be dying to Lich. At least not in a 1v1 situation.
    • Engi - Flashbang blind & auto passive CC in conjunction with all of the other CCs to stun the Lich. Lots of bubbles, lots of blockings, randomly stealth, randomly Moa elixir, lots and lots of damage, Flashbang, invuln, more Flashbang, strong mobility to get to LOS. The Engi shouldn't be dying to Lich unless he's getting +d by the Lich.
    • Thief - "I can outrun a centaur!!" comes to mind here. Why would you stay near the Lich when it goes into Lich? Just instantly teleport half way across the map to safety. Oh and also, stealth and more stealth and even more stealth. Dying to a Lich as a Thief is kind of potato. Sure, the Lich may surprise you, but that's your own fault as the Thief player who stayed in combat too long bottoming out his init & CDs when he didn't have any escape left to play on.
    • Ranger - Stealth LB3, Evade GS3, Block GS4, Evade LR, even more evades with weird sword/dagger builds, lots of mobility to quickly peel to LOS, plenty of CC that can be used to stun the Lich. Oh and by the way, why is the Necromancer alive to be able to Lich you if you are a LB Ranger? Even Druid builds have sources of reflect to play on. Ranger on 9/10 builds ran has everything it needs to defense play through a 10s Lich.
    • Mes - Pretty much same conclusion as Thief. GET OUT when it Liches. If you don't, that's your own fault. Your mobility & stealth & detargeting is in-design for a reason, use it. Mes also has the elite that super hard counters Lich, Signet Of Humility.
    • Necro - Mirror so no need to go into detail here. May the biggest Lich win.
    • Ele - Tempest & Weaver are very seriously the hardest targets in the game to hit with ranged attacks. Nothing more needs to be said.

    I feel like "Lich is OP" complaints are stemming from a place of frustration more than anything else. People know Lich is easy to play around, and that makes it extra frustrating when they aren't paying attention and end up dying to it. <- I've been talking about this for years now, and it is every bit the same effect that things like Ranger burst or Pistol/Pistol Thief or Rifle Deadeye has. These ranged attacks feel frustrating and OP at bell curve & bellow, but at higher tiered margins these ranged attacks are actually difficult to land effectively against stronger players because the stronger plays know all of the easy things they can do to completely avoid such slow immobile telegraphs.

    A bit of advice: When you fight a Necromancer, assume that Lich is going to happen and begin preparing for it early. Try that out for a day or two, and then come back into this thread and tell us all how OP Lich is.

    With this logic, give me the old damage on rampage, since you can run away or line of sight it. (There is a reason I had the disclaimer on this topic for this kind of post).

    Lich form is very easy to cheese, I have also seen a huge number of players abusing the Ripple of Horror into Deathly Claws while under quickness. Skills should not be in the game which have insane damage procs. I completely dissagree with the design of giving a win button to classes (like the oldschool rampage was (10k homing throw rock crits)).

    I'll add this disclaimer again:

    TOPIC DISCLAIMER - THIS IS NOT AN INVITE FOR PEOPLE TO POST 'LINE OF SIGHT THEM' OR 'ITS EASY TO COUNTER' *

    *this skill is beyond defending in its current state (same with a few one trick ponies that are still in the game)

    "DON'T MENTION ANY OF THE MILLION THINGS THAT COUNTER OR NEUTRALIZE LICH, DANGIT! IT'S DAMNING TO MY BASELESS ASSERTION THAT THEY ARE UNSTOPPABLE GODS WHO NEED TO BE 99% NERFED AND HAVE THEIR ACCOUNTS BANNED!!!"

    If I can survive lich with a scourge minion-mancer, you have no excuse. I literally just use LOS and dodges with barrier and carapace, same as always. And I suck, so I'm not outplaying anyone with my no-mobility build. Stay alive for 10 seconds MAYBE 3 times a game. That's it.

    Hyperbolic much? It's not a baseless assertion when 3 hits from a Lich will kill just about everything. Oh, you're hyper toughness and barrier loaded build survived it? Congrats, anyone else who doesn't have a projectile block gets dumpstered. Also, this isn't the Arena; instant LoS access isn't always available and sometimes the shots will just ignore the object and hit you around them anyway.

    How about we make lich not get ruined by projectile blocks but not destroy anything that doesn't save one specifically for Lich?

    In other words, no build should have hard counters? I disagree. This game would be boooooooring with that type of homogenization.

    Lich form isn't a build.

    It’s a specific Gm talent that is based off a power build.

    Once again this talent has so much counter play already it isn’t even funny.

    The entire ideology of the op is a large reason why this game mode has gotten so stale.

    There is a huge lack of build diversity already in this game mode and posts like these just further that problem......

  • @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Smoosh.2718 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    There are so many counters to Lich, it's a player's own fault for not using them. Well, on most classes anyway. Let's take a look realistically at who should be having problems with Lich and who shouldn't.

    • War - Enormous mobility to leave the Lich and LOS as freely as the War wishes. Standard Spellbreaker builds also have block and full counter on hand, along with 50% of their weapon skills & utilities being CCs to be able to break through the pulsing stab and stun the lich. The War can even have reflect on its shield to make the Lich hit itself. I don't see the problem here with War vs. Lich.
    • Guard - Usually not situated well for escape to LOS so it does end up often needing to tank Lich. However Guard has so so many blocks and an invuln. It also has enough damage to burst and down a Lich before he's even 3 or 4 auto casts in on the Guard. I dunno guys, the Guard's focus is 3x blocks and a single pop of f3 is a 4th block. The shield 4 is another aegis, the shield 5 is a reflect, and then Guard has invuln. Then if we're talking DH with f3 shield of courage, the blocking thickens, and if we're talking FB, the sheer amount of reflect bubbles just becomes overwhelming. I don't understand how a Guard isn't able to deal with Lich for 10s, unless the Lich is +ing him and creating a 2v1 against the Guard.
    • Rev - So many sources to deal with 10s ranged auto spam, including heal when hit, reflects, massive CC, evading while attacking, and pop Impossible Odds to get out and get to LOS. The Rev shouldn't be dying to Lich. At least not in a 1v1 situation.
    • Engi - Flashbang blind & auto passive CC in conjunction with all of the other CCs to stun the Lich. Lots of bubbles, lots of blockings, randomly stealth, randomly Moa elixir, lots and lots of damage, Flashbang, invuln, more Flashbang, strong mobility to get to LOS. The Engi shouldn't be dying to Lich unless he's getting +d by the Lich.
    • Thief - "I can outrun a centaur!!" comes to mind here. Why would you stay near the Lich when it goes into Lich? Just instantly teleport half way across the map to safety. Oh and also, stealth and more stealth and even more stealth. Dying to a Lich as a Thief is kind of potato. Sure, the Lich may surprise you, but that's your own fault as the Thief player who stayed in combat too long bottoming out his init & CDs when he didn't have any escape left to play on.
    • Ranger - Stealth LB3, Evade GS3, Block GS4, Evade LR, even more evades with weird sword/dagger builds, lots of mobility to quickly peel to LOS, plenty of CC that can be used to stun the Lich. Oh and by the way, why is the Necromancer alive to be able to Lich you if you are a LB Ranger? Even Druid builds have sources of reflect to play on. Ranger on 9/10 builds ran has everything it needs to defense play through a 10s Lich.
    • Mes - Pretty much same conclusion as Thief. GET OUT when it Liches. If you don't, that's your own fault. Your mobility & stealth & detargeting is in-design for a reason, use it. Mes also has the elite that super hard counters Lich, Signet Of Humility.
    • Necro - Mirror so no need to go into detail here. May the biggest Lich win.
    • Ele - Tempest & Weaver are very seriously the hardest targets in the game to hit with ranged attacks. Nothing more needs to be said.

    I feel like "Lich is OP" complaints are stemming from a place of frustration more than anything else. People know Lich is easy to play around, and that makes it extra frustrating when they aren't paying attention and end up dying to it. <- I've been talking about this for years now, and it is every bit the same effect that things like Ranger burst or Pistol/Pistol Thief or Rifle Deadeye has. These ranged attacks feel frustrating and OP at bell curve & bellow, but at higher tiered margins these ranged attacks are actually difficult to land effectively against stronger players because the stronger plays know all of the easy things they can do to completely avoid such slow immobile telegraphs.

    A bit of advice: When you fight a Necromancer, assume that Lich is going to happen and begin preparing for it early. Try that out for a day or two, and then come back into this thread and tell us all how OP Lich is.

    With this logic, give me the old damage on rampage, since you can run away or line of sight it. (There is a reason I had the disclaimer on this topic for this kind of post).

    Lich form is very easy to cheese, I have also seen a huge number of players abusing the Ripple of Horror into Deathly Claws while under quickness. Skills should not be in the game which have insane damage procs. I completely dissagree with the design of giving a win button to classes (like the oldschool rampage was (10k homing throw rock crits)).

    I'll add this disclaimer again:

    TOPIC DISCLAIMER - THIS IS NOT AN INVITE FOR PEOPLE TO POST 'LINE OF SIGHT THEM' OR 'ITS EASY TO COUNTER' *

    *this skill is beyond defending in its current state (same with a few one trick ponies that are still in the game)

    "DON'T MENTION ANY OF THE MILLION THINGS THAT COUNTER OR NEUTRALIZE LICH, DANGIT! IT'S DAMNING TO MY BASELESS ASSERTION THAT THEY ARE UNSTOPPABLE GODS WHO NEED TO BE 99% NERFED AND HAVE THEIR ACCOUNTS BANNED!!!"

    If I can survive lich with a scourge minion-mancer, you have no excuse. I literally just use LOS and dodges with barrier and carapace, same as always. And I suck, so I'm not outplaying anyone with my no-mobility build. Stay alive for 10 seconds MAYBE 3 times a game. That's it.

    Hyperbolic much? It's not a baseless assertion when 3 hits from a Lich will kill just about everything. Oh, you're hyper toughness and barrier loaded build survived it? Congrats, anyone else who doesn't have a projectile block gets dumpstered. Also, this isn't the Arena; instant LoS access isn't always available and sometimes the shots will just ignore the object and hit you around them anyway.

    How about we make lich not get ruined by projectile blocks but not destroy anything that doesn't save one specifically for Lich?

    In other words, no build should have hard counters? I disagree. This game would be boooooooring with that type of homogenization.

    Lich form isn't a build.

    I'm not sure if you're trying to deliberately miss the point here.

  • @Azreell.1568 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Smoosh.2718 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    There are so many counters to Lich, it's a player's own fault for not using them. Well, on most classes anyway. Let's take a look realistically at who should be having problems with Lich and who shouldn't.

    • War - Enormous mobility to leave the Lich and LOS as freely as the War wishes. Standard Spellbreaker builds also have block and full counter on hand, along with 50% of their weapon skills & utilities being CCs to be able to break through the pulsing stab and stun the lich. The War can even have reflect on its shield to make the Lich hit itself. I don't see the problem here with War vs. Lich.
    • Guard - Usually not situated well for escape to LOS so it does end up often needing to tank Lich. However Guard has so so many blocks and an invuln. It also has enough damage to burst and down a Lich before he's even 3 or 4 auto casts in on the Guard. I dunno guys, the Guard's focus is 3x blocks and a single pop of f3 is a 4th block. The shield 4 is another aegis, the shield 5 is a reflect, and then Guard has invuln. Then if we're talking DH with f3 shield of courage, the blocking thickens, and if we're talking FB, the sheer amount of reflect bubbles just becomes overwhelming. I don't understand how a Guard isn't able to deal with Lich for 10s, unless the Lich is +ing him and creating a 2v1 against the Guard.
    • Rev - So many sources to deal with 10s ranged auto spam, including heal when hit, reflects, massive CC, evading while attacking, and pop Impossible Odds to get out and get to LOS. The Rev shouldn't be dying to Lich. At least not in a 1v1 situation.
    • Engi - Flashbang blind & auto passive CC in conjunction with all of the other CCs to stun the Lich. Lots of bubbles, lots of blockings, randomly stealth, randomly Moa elixir, lots and lots of damage, Flashbang, invuln, more Flashbang, strong mobility to get to LOS. The Engi shouldn't be dying to Lich unless he's getting +d by the Lich.
    • Thief - "I can outrun a centaur!!" comes to mind here. Why would you stay near the Lich when it goes into Lich? Just instantly teleport half way across the map to safety. Oh and also, stealth and more stealth and even more stealth. Dying to a Lich as a Thief is kind of potato. Sure, the Lich may surprise you, but that's your own fault as the Thief player who stayed in combat too long bottoming out his init & CDs when he didn't have any escape left to play on.
    • Ranger - Stealth LB3, Evade GS3, Block GS4, Evade LR, even more evades with weird sword/dagger builds, lots of mobility to quickly peel to LOS, plenty of CC that can be used to stun the Lich. Oh and by the way, why is the Necromancer alive to be able to Lich you if you are a LB Ranger? Even Druid builds have sources of reflect to play on. Ranger on 9/10 builds ran has everything it needs to defense play through a 10s Lich.
    • Mes - Pretty much same conclusion as Thief. GET OUT when it Liches. If you don't, that's your own fault. Your mobility & stealth & detargeting is in-design for a reason, use it. Mes also has the elite that super hard counters Lich, Signet Of Humility.
    • Necro - Mirror so no need to go into detail here. May the biggest Lich win.
    • Ele - Tempest & Weaver are very seriously the hardest targets in the game to hit with ranged attacks. Nothing more needs to be said.

    I feel like "Lich is OP" complaints are stemming from a place of frustration more than anything else. People know Lich is easy to play around, and that makes it extra frustrating when they aren't paying attention and end up dying to it. <- I've been talking about this for years now, and it is every bit the same effect that things like Ranger burst or Pistol/Pistol Thief or Rifle Deadeye has. These ranged attacks feel frustrating and OP at bell curve & bellow, but at higher tiered margins these ranged attacks are actually difficult to land effectively against stronger players because the stronger plays know all of the easy things they can do to completely avoid such slow immobile telegraphs.

    A bit of advice: When you fight a Necromancer, assume that Lich is going to happen and begin preparing for it early. Try that out for a day or two, and then come back into this thread and tell us all how OP Lich is.

    With this logic, give me the old damage on rampage, since you can run away or line of sight it. (There is a reason I had the disclaimer on this topic for this kind of post).

    Lich form is very easy to cheese, I have also seen a huge number of players abusing the Ripple of Horror into Deathly Claws while under quickness. Skills should not be in the game which have insane damage procs. I completely dissagree with the design of giving a win button to classes (like the oldschool rampage was (10k homing throw rock crits)).

    I'll add this disclaimer again:

    TOPIC DISCLAIMER - THIS IS NOT AN INVITE FOR PEOPLE TO POST 'LINE OF SIGHT THEM' OR 'ITS EASY TO COUNTER' *

    *this skill is beyond defending in its current state (same with a few one trick ponies that are still in the game)

    "DON'T MENTION ANY OF THE MILLION THINGS THAT COUNTER OR NEUTRALIZE LICH, DANGIT! IT'S DAMNING TO MY BASELESS ASSERTION THAT THEY ARE UNSTOPPABLE GODS WHO NEED TO BE 99% NERFED AND HAVE THEIR ACCOUNTS BANNED!!!"

    If I can survive lich with a scourge minion-mancer, you have no excuse. I literally just use LOS and dodges with barrier and carapace, same as always. And I suck, so I'm not outplaying anyone with my no-mobility build. Stay alive for 10 seconds MAYBE 3 times a game. That's it.

    Hyperbolic much? It's not a baseless assertion when 3 hits from a Lich will kill just about everything. Oh, you're hyper toughness and barrier loaded build survived it? Congrats, anyone else who doesn't have a projectile block gets dumpstered. Also, this isn't the Arena; instant LoS access isn't always available and sometimes the shots will just ignore the object and hit you around them anyway.

    How about we make lich not get ruined by projectile blocks but not destroy anything that doesn't save one specifically for Lich?

    In other words, no build should have hard counters? I disagree. This game would be boooooooring with that type of homogenization.

    Lich form isn't a build.

    It’s a specific Gm talent that is based off a power build.

    Once again this talent has so much counter play already it isn’t even funny.

    The entire ideology of the op is a large reason why this game mode has gotten so stale.

    There is a huge lack of build diversity already in this game mode and posts like these just further that problem......

    One of the reasons build diversity is such trash is because of things like Lich form. The other options are either bad or just wildly inferior, making them mandatory, and because of this opposing builds have to bring specific tools at all times to deal with it or risk it running over their team. This turns the extremely powerful tool that's being countered useless and it becomes the same song and dance every time: Lich Form - Projectile Block = Wasted Elite, or Lich Form - No Projectile Block = Dead Team.

    Build diversity would improve dramatically if so much stuff wasn't hard countered by so much else and rendered useless. This would also mean the things being countered have no excuse to be absolutely busted in the situations they aren't made useless. We have a much longer list of useless or unviable skills vs good and viable ones. Sometimes it's bad design, more often it's the better skills invalidating all else

  • @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Azreell.1568 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Smoosh.2718 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    There are so many counters to Lich, it's a player's own fault for not using them. Well, on most classes anyway. Let's take a look realistically at who should be having problems with Lich and who shouldn't.

    • War - Enormous mobility to leave the Lich and LOS as freely as the War wishes. Standard Spellbreaker builds also have block and full counter on hand, along with 50% of their weapon skills & utilities being CCs to be able to break through the pulsing stab and stun the lich. The War can even have reflect on its shield to make the Lich hit itself. I don't see the problem here with War vs. Lich.
    • Guard - Usually not situated well for escape to LOS so it does end up often needing to tank Lich. However Guard has so so many blocks and an invuln. It also has enough damage to burst and down a Lich before he's even 3 or 4 auto casts in on the Guard. I dunno guys, the Guard's focus is 3x blocks and a single pop of f3 is a 4th block. The shield 4 is another aegis, the shield 5 is a reflect, and then Guard has invuln. Then if we're talking DH with f3 shield of courage, the blocking thickens, and if we're talking FB, the sheer amount of reflect bubbles just becomes overwhelming. I don't understand how a Guard isn't able to deal with Lich for 10s, unless the Lich is +ing him and creating a 2v1 against the Guard.
    • Rev - So many sources to deal with 10s ranged auto spam, including heal when hit, reflects, massive CC, evading while attacking, and pop Impossible Odds to get out and get to LOS. The Rev shouldn't be dying to Lich. At least not in a 1v1 situation.
    • Engi - Flashbang blind & auto passive CC in conjunction with all of the other CCs to stun the Lich. Lots of bubbles, lots of blockings, randomly stealth, randomly Moa elixir, lots and lots of damage, Flashbang, invuln, more Flashbang, strong mobility to get to LOS. The Engi shouldn't be dying to Lich unless he's getting +d by the Lich.
    • Thief - "I can outrun a centaur!!" comes to mind here. Why would you stay near the Lich when it goes into Lich? Just instantly teleport half way across the map to safety. Oh and also, stealth and more stealth and even more stealth. Dying to a Lich as a Thief is kind of potato. Sure, the Lich may surprise you, but that's your own fault as the Thief player who stayed in combat too long bottoming out his init & CDs when he didn't have any escape left to play on.
    • Ranger - Stealth LB3, Evade GS3, Block GS4, Evade LR, even more evades with weird sword/dagger builds, lots of mobility to quickly peel to LOS, plenty of CC that can be used to stun the Lich. Oh and by the way, why is the Necromancer alive to be able to Lich you if you are a LB Ranger? Even Druid builds have sources of reflect to play on. Ranger on 9/10 builds ran has everything it needs to defense play through a 10s Lich.
    • Mes - Pretty much same conclusion as Thief. GET OUT when it Liches. If you don't, that's your own fault. Your mobility & stealth & detargeting is in-design for a reason, use it. Mes also has the elite that super hard counters Lich, Signet Of Humility.
    • Necro - Mirror so no need to go into detail here. May the biggest Lich win.
    • Ele - Tempest & Weaver are very seriously the hardest targets in the game to hit with ranged attacks. Nothing more needs to be said.

    I feel like "Lich is OP" complaints are stemming from a place of frustration more than anything else. People know Lich is easy to play around, and that makes it extra frustrating when they aren't paying attention and end up dying to it. <- I've been talking about this for years now, and it is every bit the same effect that things like Ranger burst or Pistol/Pistol Thief or Rifle Deadeye has. These ranged attacks feel frustrating and OP at bell curve & bellow, but at higher tiered margins these ranged attacks are actually difficult to land effectively against stronger players because the stronger plays know all of the easy things they can do to completely avoid such slow immobile telegraphs.

    A bit of advice: When you fight a Necromancer, assume that Lich is going to happen and begin preparing for it early. Try that out for a day or two, and then come back into this thread and tell us all how OP Lich is.

    With this logic, give me the old damage on rampage, since you can run away or line of sight it. (There is a reason I had the disclaimer on this topic for this kind of post).

    Lich form is very easy to cheese, I have also seen a huge number of players abusing the Ripple of Horror into Deathly Claws while under quickness. Skills should not be in the game which have insane damage procs. I completely dissagree with the design of giving a win button to classes (like the oldschool rampage was (10k homing throw rock crits)).

    I'll add this disclaimer again:

    TOPIC DISCLAIMER - THIS IS NOT AN INVITE FOR PEOPLE TO POST 'LINE OF SIGHT THEM' OR 'ITS EASY TO COUNTER' *

    *this skill is beyond defending in its current state (same with a few one trick ponies that are still in the game)

    "DON'T MENTION ANY OF THE MILLION THINGS THAT COUNTER OR NEUTRALIZE LICH, DANGIT! IT'S DAMNING TO MY BASELESS ASSERTION THAT THEY ARE UNSTOPPABLE GODS WHO NEED TO BE 99% NERFED AND HAVE THEIR ACCOUNTS BANNED!!!"

    If I can survive lich with a scourge minion-mancer, you have no excuse. I literally just use LOS and dodges with barrier and carapace, same as always. And I suck, so I'm not outplaying anyone with my no-mobility build. Stay alive for 10 seconds MAYBE 3 times a game. That's it.

    Hyperbolic much? It's not a baseless assertion when 3 hits from a Lich will kill just about everything. Oh, you're hyper toughness and barrier loaded build survived it? Congrats, anyone else who doesn't have a projectile block gets dumpstered. Also, this isn't the Arena; instant LoS access isn't always available and sometimes the shots will just ignore the object and hit you around them anyway.

    How about we make lich not get ruined by projectile blocks but not destroy anything that doesn't save one specifically for Lich?

    In other words, no build should have hard counters? I disagree. This game would be boooooooring with that type of homogenization.

    Lich form isn't a build.

    It’s a specific Gm talent that is based off a power build.

    Once again this talent has so much counter play already it isn’t even funny.

    The entire ideology of the op is a large reason why this game mode has gotten so stale.

    There is a huge lack of build diversity already in this game mode and posts like these just further that problem......

    One of the reasons build diversity is such trash is because of things like Lich form. The other options are either bad or just wildly inferior, making them mandatory, and because of this opposing builds have to bring specific tools at all times to deal with it or risk it running over their team. This turns the extremely powerful tool that's being countered useless and it becomes the same song and dance every time: Lich Form - Projectile Block = Wasted Elite, or Lich Form - No Projectile Block = Dead Team.

    Build diversity would improve dramatically if so much stuff wasn't hard countered by so much else and rendered useless. This would also mean the things being countered have no excuse to be absolutely busted in the situations they aren't made useless. We have a much longer list of useless or unviable skills vs good and viable ones. Sometimes it's bad design, more often it's the better skills invalidating all else

    It really boils down to whether you prefer the rock-paper-scissors approach to balance or the everybody-fares-the-same-against-everybody approach. There's merit in both options. I just prefer the former.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Problem I have with this. That if you need lich further, to an extend, that it's not doing that much damage anymore. What options does necro have left as elite skills?
    They are all pretty much useless. Sure reaper could use the shout, but what about core necro? If I feel like playing power core.

    Pros and cons of lich:
    -High cooldown (150seconds) skill that lasts for 10 seconds.
    +Autoattacks that deal a lot of damage,
    -but can extremely easily be reflected (resulting in necro killing itself)
    -Attacks can easily be dodged by using line of sight
    -When going into lich necro looses all access to defensive abilities.
    -Only gets pulsing stab, which is applied every 3 seconds.

    So lich is only taken because of the dmg output. Nerfing it to mediocre dmg would make it an absolutely useless skill.

    Problem is that all necro elites besides of lich are pretty much useless right now (for power builds).

    Also necro would loose a lot of damage, if lich was nerfed to the ground like some people want it to.
    Would you give necro any compensation? (Out of shroud damage)

    I think reworking the elite would be a lot better than nerfing it.

    If you would just nerf it, you'd have to nerf a lot of other skills as well, that have a lot less counterplay than lich form (for example steal mechanic from thief. Instant cast teleport that doesn't need LoS , that has a lot of strong effects (at least when traited). Basically no counterplay available other than random dodges.

  • @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Azreell.1568 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Smoosh.2718 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    There are so many counters to Lich, it's a player's own fault for not using them. Well, on most classes anyway. Let's take a look realistically at who should be having problems with Lich and who shouldn't.

    • War - Enormous mobility to leave the Lich and LOS as freely as the War wishes. Standard Spellbreaker builds also have block and full counter on hand, along with 50% of their weapon skills & utilities being CCs to be able to break through the pulsing stab and stun the lich. The War can even have reflect on its shield to make the Lich hit itself. I don't see the problem here with War vs. Lich.
    • Guard - Usually not situated well for escape to LOS so it does end up often needing to tank Lich. However Guard has so so many blocks and an invuln. It also has enough damage to burst and down a Lich before he's even 3 or 4 auto casts in on the Guard. I dunno guys, the Guard's focus is 3x blocks and a single pop of f3 is a 4th block. The shield 4 is another aegis, the shield 5 is a reflect, and then Guard has invuln. Then if we're talking DH with f3 shield of courage, the blocking thickens, and if we're talking FB, the sheer amount of reflect bubbles just becomes overwhelming. I don't understand how a Guard isn't able to deal with Lich for 10s, unless the Lich is +ing him and creating a 2v1 against the Guard.
    • Rev - So many sources to deal with 10s ranged auto spam, including heal when hit, reflects, massive CC, evading while attacking, and pop Impossible Odds to get out and get to LOS. The Rev shouldn't be dying to Lich. At least not in a 1v1 situation.
    • Engi - Flashbang blind & auto passive CC in conjunction with all of the other CCs to stun the Lich. Lots of bubbles, lots of blockings, randomly stealth, randomly Moa elixir, lots and lots of damage, Flashbang, invuln, more Flashbang, strong mobility to get to LOS. The Engi shouldn't be dying to Lich unless he's getting +d by the Lich.
    • Thief - "I can outrun a centaur!!" comes to mind here. Why would you stay near the Lich when it goes into Lich? Just instantly teleport half way across the map to safety. Oh and also, stealth and more stealth and even more stealth. Dying to a Lich as a Thief is kind of potato. Sure, the Lich may surprise you, but that's your own fault as the Thief player who stayed in combat too long bottoming out his init & CDs when he didn't have any escape left to play on.
    • Ranger - Stealth LB3, Evade GS3, Block GS4, Evade LR, even more evades with weird sword/dagger builds, lots of mobility to quickly peel to LOS, plenty of CC that can be used to stun the Lich. Oh and by the way, why is the Necromancer alive to be able to Lich you if you are a LB Ranger? Even Druid builds have sources of reflect to play on. Ranger on 9/10 builds ran has everything it needs to defense play through a 10s Lich.
    • Mes - Pretty much same conclusion as Thief. GET OUT when it Liches. If you don't, that's your own fault. Your mobility & stealth & detargeting is in-design for a reason, use it. Mes also has the elite that super hard counters Lich, Signet Of Humility.
    • Necro - Mirror so no need to go into detail here. May the biggest Lich win.
    • Ele - Tempest & Weaver are very seriously the hardest targets in the game to hit with ranged attacks. Nothing more needs to be said.

    I feel like "Lich is OP" complaints are stemming from a place of frustration more than anything else. People know Lich is easy to play around, and that makes it extra frustrating when they aren't paying attention and end up dying to it. <- I've been talking about this for years now, and it is every bit the same effect that things like Ranger burst or Pistol/Pistol Thief or Rifle Deadeye has. These ranged attacks feel frustrating and OP at bell curve & bellow, but at higher tiered margins these ranged attacks are actually difficult to land effectively against stronger players because the stronger plays know all of the easy things they can do to completely avoid such slow immobile telegraphs.

    A bit of advice: When you fight a Necromancer, assume that Lich is going to happen and begin preparing for it early. Try that out for a day or two, and then come back into this thread and tell us all how OP Lich is.

    With this logic, give me the old damage on rampage, since you can run away or line of sight it. (There is a reason I had the disclaimer on this topic for this kind of post).

    Lich form is very easy to cheese, I have also seen a huge number of players abusing the Ripple of Horror into Deathly Claws while under quickness. Skills should not be in the game which have insane damage procs. I completely dissagree with the design of giving a win button to classes (like the oldschool rampage was (10k homing throw rock crits)).

    I'll add this disclaimer again:

    TOPIC DISCLAIMER - THIS IS NOT AN INVITE FOR PEOPLE TO POST 'LINE OF SIGHT THEM' OR 'ITS EASY TO COUNTER' *

    *this skill is beyond defending in its current state (same with a few one trick ponies that are still in the game)

    "DON'T MENTION ANY OF THE MILLION THINGS THAT COUNTER OR NEUTRALIZE LICH, DANGIT! IT'S DAMNING TO MY BASELESS ASSERTION THAT THEY ARE UNSTOPPABLE GODS WHO NEED TO BE 99% NERFED AND HAVE THEIR ACCOUNTS BANNED!!!"

    If I can survive lich with a scourge minion-mancer, you have no excuse. I literally just use LOS and dodges with barrier and carapace, same as always. And I suck, so I'm not outplaying anyone with my no-mobility build. Stay alive for 10 seconds MAYBE 3 times a game. That's it.

    Hyperbolic much? It's not a baseless assertion when 3 hits from a Lich will kill just about everything. Oh, you're hyper toughness and barrier loaded build survived it? Congrats, anyone else who doesn't have a projectile block gets dumpstered. Also, this isn't the Arena; instant LoS access isn't always available and sometimes the shots will just ignore the object and hit you around them anyway.

    How about we make lich not get ruined by projectile blocks but not destroy anything that doesn't save one specifically for Lich?

    In other words, no build should have hard counters? I disagree. This game would be boooooooring with that type of homogenization.

    Lich form isn't a build.

    It’s a specific Gm talent that is based off a power build.

    Once again this talent has so much counter play already it isn’t even funny.

    The entire ideology of the op is a large reason why this game mode has gotten so stale.

    There is a huge lack of build diversity already in this game mode and posts like these just further that problem......

    One of the reasons build diversity is such trash is because of things like Lich form. The other options are either bad or just wildly inferior, making them mandatory, and because of this opposing builds have to bring specific tools at all times to deal with it or risk it running over their team. This turns the extremely powerful tool that's being countered useless and it becomes the same song and dance every time: Lich Form - Projectile Block = Wasted Elite, or Lich Form - No Projectile Block = Dead Team.

    Build diversity would improve dramatically if so much stuff wasn't hard countered by so much else and rendered useless. This would also mean the things being countered have no excuse to be absolutely busted in the situations they aren't made useless. We have a much longer list of useless or unviable skills vs good and viable ones. Sometimes it's bad design, more often it's the better skills invalidating all else

    It really boils down to whether you prefer the rock-paper-scissors approach to balance or the everybody-fares-the-same-against-everybody approach. There's merit in both options. I just prefer the former.

    It's not so much I think everyone should fare the same against everyone, but rather it's that I don't think we should have such extreme counters that make things completely unplayable if the counters are prevalent. Not only does this severely hinder possible build options but makes the meta become stale because you're only going to see certain builds that are either extremely good at a specific role and thus make no other builds that try to do something similar worth using, offer enough utility to a team to warrant building a team around, have a niche as a counter build, etc etc.

  • Smoosh.2718Smoosh.2718 Member ✭✭✭

    I just want to throw this one out there as well:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dread

    Combine this with Reapers Onslaught and you have yourself up to 8s of quickness, that is more than enough time to down up to 3 players, and potentially kill the downed state player as well.

    Skill combo's to pull off this very 'challenging' setup:

    F1 > 3 > 3 > F1 > 0 > 111111111111111111

    Will this change? probably if Lichform removed quickness when you use the skill. I'm ok with quickness activating the skill, but not ok with quickness effecting the 'very hard to use' 1 skill.

    Yet still this skill is defended with the 'just dodge 4 head' gang and the 'Just line of sight it'. If every necro has this 1 skill the question comes to why? Overperforming? Or does the class need a rework with its other skills as well?

    As an example, Warrior's, Thieves, Mesmers, Elementalists, Guardians, Rangers, Revenants and Engineers you'll see running around with different elite skills, yet necro (unless running meme mancer) you'll see with lich form.

    Its undeniable that changes need to be made, not just to Lich form but other skills as well, keeping skills like this as they are just encourage cheese play. This kind of cheese play does not retain players.

    Could removing boons on entry to the skill fix this skill? Probably not?
    Would it make the skill a little more fair in combat? I'd say it would, since players can now have chance to react than have 3 blasts of 6k damage in their face in a split second.
    Would reworks need to be done down the line to address this skill? Yes.

    What I was proposing isnt the be all end all fix, but more of a band aid to stop the immdiate bleed that's slowly becoming infectious.