Rite of the Great Dwarf to be undone?

TeeracK.3601

Did anyone else notice that the new Dwarf NPC's all have normal flesh and blood looks when you click on them. They have hair, skin, eye, and clothes textures done for them, and then I'm assuming are using the new stone skin infusion to take on the stone skin look. As far as I know all the other stone dwarfs we've met up to now always looked the same in their portraits. It wouldn't make design sense for them to make all those textures just to hide them with the infusion, so I'm thinking this might have been a mistake that is giving away that the Dwarfs may be returning to mortal status after IBS.

Ashantara.8731

That would be fantastic.

The Greyhawk.9107

I wouldn't bet on it. The change you saw might be a genuine technical error that might have to do with how they designed and render the stone dwarves.

Fueki.4753

I hope Arenanet won't undo it.
I hope the Dwarves go back underground to chase after the last Destroyers once we kill Primordus.

Randulf.7614

I pity poor Rhoban if they return to normal. That's gonna sting...

Konig Des Todes.2086

The reason why the dialogue boxes have "normal flesh and blood looks" is due to how the dialogue box portrait works. It takes a quick screencap of the NPC/character in question at the time the dialogue box opens, but this screencap lacks all effects. For these new stone dwarves, how they're made seems to be the same way as the Thunderhead Keep dwarves from S4E5: taking a norn, squashing them down, and applying the necessary effect (in S4, it was the ghost effect; in S5, it is the Stoneskin Aura / Revenant's Rite of the Great Dwarf effect).

Because of this oversight when making the system, all ghosts and other figures which have an effect modifying their appearance will be missing said effect when opening a dialogue box with them, and sometimes will be missing in their portrait when selecting them.

So this mechanic is of zero foreshadowing.

The reason why

As far as I know all the other stone dwarfs we've met up to now always looked the same in their portraits.

is the case, is because Rhoban and Ogden do not use squashed norn models, but unique models and a unique rig in Ogden's case (which has no animations other than idle and talk).

I imagine if you look at the dwarves, you'll find each hairstyle belongs to norn or humans. It is possible they made new hairstyles though, but I find that unlikely.

Ogwom.7940

I agree with Konig.

The only way I can see dwarves having the rite removed is by them destroying Primordus. That way the Great Dwarf would allow them to change whether involuntarily or voluntarily based on the dwarves fulfilling their prophecy.
Then again, that is all just speculation.

Amanda Whitemoon.6173

it may just be a game mechanic, but this could also be used in the end, having them overlay a different effect at the end of the story after primordus died and they no longer need to be stone or something

TeeracK.3601

@Amanda Whitemoon.6173 said:
it may just be a game mechanic, but this could also be used in the end, having them overlay a different effect at the end of the story after primordus died and they no longer need to be stone or something

Yeah there is also a lot or lore room here to. We don't even know who the great dwarf is. Since the dwarfs and glint were allies I always assumed the great dwarf was a converted dragon champ like glint but able to make people like the pale tree. The dwarfs could have been made flesh to break Primordus's control so they could build up their wills as mortals and resist his call like the sylvari were able to. Would also explain why the stone summit seem to now be allies to primirdus

Fueki.4753

@TeeracK.3601 said:

@Amanda Whitemoon.6173 said:
it may just be a game mechanic, but this could also be used in the end, having them overlay a different effect at the end of the story after primordus died and they no longer need to be stone or something

Yeah there is also a lot or lore room here to. We don't even know who the great dwarf is. Since the dwarfs and glint were allies I always assumed the great dwarf was a converted dragon champ like glint but able to make people like the pale tree. The dwarfs could have been made flesh to break Primordus's control so they could build up their wills as mortals and resist his call like the sylvari were able to. Would also explain why the stone summit seem to now be allies to primirdus

We know that the Great Dwarf technically is a god, like the human gods, even though he is the collective consciousness of all dwarves.
We know that he once walked on Tyria, like the Human Gods, but then moved into the Mists to rule over the Great Forge (the Dwarven afterlife).
Since he possessed the ability to move through the Mists before the dragons absorbed it from Balthazar, it's safe to say he never was a Dragon minion.

Randulf.7614

@Fueki.4753 said:

@TeeracK.3601 said:

@Amanda Whitemoon.6173 said:
it may just be a game mechanic, but this could also be used in the end, having them overlay a different effect at the end of the story after primordus died and they no longer need to be stone or something

Yeah there is also a lot or lore room here to. We don't even know who the great dwarf is. Since the dwarfs and glint were allies I always assumed the great dwarf was a converted dragon champ like glint but able to make people like the pale tree. The dwarfs could have been made flesh to break Primordus's control so they could build up their wills as mortals and resist his call like the sylvari were able to. Would also explain why the stone summit seem to now be allies to primirdus

We know that the Great Dwarf technically is a god, like the human gods, even though he is the collective consciousness of all dwarves.
We know that he once walked on Tyria, like the Human Gods, but then moved into the Mists to rule over the Great Forge (the Dwarven afterlife).
Since he possessed the ability to move through the Mists before the dragons absorbed it from Balthazar, it's safe to say he never was a Dragon minion.

We don't know it was an entity at all. All indications are that this is part of Dwarven mythology which had got twisted down the millennia into becoming a worshipable entity and it fact was a magical rite which united the consciousness of the Dwarves and converted them to be able to fight a racial enemy in Primordus from an earlier awakening

There is no indication there ever was a Great Dwarf who created the race and then went off to this Great Forge in the Rift and exists there still. It appears to be nothing more than mythology.

Konig Des Todes.2086

@Randulf.7614 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@TeeracK.3601 said:

@Amanda Whitemoon.6173 said:
it may just be a game mechanic, but this could also be used in the end, having them overlay a different effect at the end of the story after primordus died and they no longer need to be stone or something

Yeah there is also a lot or lore room here to. We don't even know who the great dwarf is. Since the dwarfs and glint were allies I always assumed the great dwarf was a converted dragon champ like glint but able to make people like the pale tree. The dwarfs could have been made flesh to break Primordus's control so they could build up their wills as mortals and resist his call like the sylvari were able to. Would also explain why the stone summit seem to now be allies to primirdus

We know that the Great Dwarf technically is a god, like the human gods, even though he is the collective consciousness of all dwarves.
We know that he once walked on Tyria, like the Human Gods, but then moved into the Mists to rule over the Great Forge (the Dwarven afterlife).
Since he possessed the ability to move through the Mists before the dragons absorbed it from Balthazar, it's safe to say he never was a Dragon minion.

We don't know it was an entity at all. All indications are that this is part of Dwarven mythology which had got twisted down the millennia into becoming a worshipable entity and it fact was a magical rite which united the consciousness of the Dwarves and converted them to be able to fight a racial enemy in Primordus from an earlier awakening

There is no indication there ever was a Great Dwarf who created the race and then went off to this Great Forge in the Rift and exists there still. It appears to be nothing more than mythology.

Well, when asked whether the Great Dwarf was just the collective conscious, or a specific entity, Jeff Grubb (one of the two main lore writers at the time) effectively said that it could be both.

The Great Dwarf can best be thought of as collective consciousness of the dwarves themselves (indeed, in making the prophesy of the Great Dwarf defeating the Great Destroyer coming true). Has anyone MET the Great Dwarf, and found him to be a real being? Well, that has not happened.
The whole question of gods is based upon culture. The humans have tangible, powerful beings that they can interact with – hence, gods. The spirits of the norn also fit that description, so humans would call these beings “gods.”

https://www.guildmag.com/gmblitz-lore-interview-with-jeff-grubb/

Mind you this is a bit old and the writers since Jeff and Ree left have considered out of game lore to be "psuedo-canon", so it can easily change. But in effect, the Great Dwarf is the collective conscious, but there could be a singular entity once in the past that no one has solid proof of having met.

Which would make sense, because there are stories of the Great Dwarf that just don't fit with it being a collective conscious - specifically, the Anvil of Dragrimmar (I'd say "creating the race at Anvil Rock", but one could argue a theory that Anvil Rock was where dwarves went from originally stone to flesh and blood, before eventually returning to stone).

You say "there's no indication" but that's a lot of myths to make up about a singular entity. Why would a collective conscious use a singular specific anvil, one far too large for your average dwarf at that (it's more jotun-sized if anything). Why would a collective conscious go off to the Mists and establish the Great Forge afterlife? Stories can only be twisted so much, so it seems likely that there was an individual, though this individual may not have been a god named the Great Dwarf.

Randulf.7614

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Randulf.7614 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@TeeracK.3601 said:

@Amanda Whitemoon.6173 said:
it may just be a game mechanic, but this could also be used in the end, having them overlay a different effect at the end of the story after primordus died and they no longer need to be stone or something

Yeah there is also a lot or lore room here to. We don't even know who the great dwarf is. Since the dwarfs and glint were allies I always assumed the great dwarf was a converted dragon champ like glint but able to make people like the pale tree. The dwarfs could have been made flesh to break Primordus's control so they could build up their wills as mortals and resist his call like the sylvari were able to. Would also explain why the stone summit seem to now be allies to primirdus

We know that the Great Dwarf technically is a god, like the human gods, even though he is the collective consciousness of all dwarves.
We know that he once walked on Tyria, like the Human Gods, but then moved into the Mists to rule over the Great Forge (the Dwarven afterlife).
Since he possessed the ability to move through the Mists before the dragons absorbed it from Balthazar, it's safe to say he never was a Dragon minion.

We don't know it was an entity at all. All indications are that this is part of Dwarven mythology which had got twisted down the millennia into becoming a worshipable entity and it fact was a magical rite which united the consciousness of the Dwarves and converted them to be able to fight a racial enemy in Primordus from an earlier awakening

There is no indication there ever was a Great Dwarf who created the race and then went off to this Great Forge in the Rift and exists there still. It appears to be nothing more than mythology.

Well, when asked whether the Great Dwarf was just the collective conscious, or a specific entity, Jeff Grubb (one of the two main lore writers at the time) effectively said that it could be both.

The Great Dwarf can best be thought of as collective consciousness of the dwarves themselves (indeed, in making the prophesy of the Great Dwarf defeating the Great Destroyer coming true). Has anyone MET the Great Dwarf, and found him to be a real being? Well, that has not happened.
The whole question of gods is based upon culture. The humans have tangible, powerful beings that they can interact with – hence, gods. The spirits of the norn also fit that description, so humans would call these beings “gods.”

https://www.guildmag.com/gmblitz-lore-interview-with-jeff-grubb/

Mind you this is a bit old and the writers since Jeff and Ree left have considered out of game lore to be "psuedo-canon", so it can easily change. But in effect, the Great Dwarf is the collective conscious, but there could be a singular entity once in the past that no one has solid proof of having met.

Which would make sense, because there are stories of the Great Dwarf that just don't fit with it being a collective conscious - specifically, the Anvil of Dragrimmar (I'd say "creating the race at Anvil Rock", but one could argue a theory that Anvil Rock was where dwarves went from originally stone to flesh and blood, before eventually returning to stone).

You say "there's no indication" but that's a lot of myths to make up about a singular entity. Why would a collective conscious use a singular specific anvil, one far too large for your average dwarf at that (it's more jotun-sized if anything). Why would a collective conscious go off to the Mists and establish the Great Forge afterlife? Stories can only be twisted so much, so it seems likely that there was an individual, though this individual may not have been a god named the Great Dwarf.

You're right, it could potentially be a single entity who has been given status far above what they really were and perhaps even both in a way, but a bunch of attributable stories isn't really a clue to anything since mythology is too complex for that.

My main point, was that in response to to the post I quoted is that we do not know it is an entity like the Human Gods as was asserted. There are good arguments for and against it based on the little information we know, but no definite's exist. Whilst I lean more to it being a magical rite twisted over the years with stories built up around it, to be honest such a mystery doesn't need to be answered either and is fine being left open ended and speculative (imo)