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Primordus and Jormag’s abilities (Spoilers)

Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

Curious on everyone’s thoughts regarding Primordus new feedback loop ability, along with Jormag’s Frozen. Seems to be due to the absorption of Kralkatorrik’s magic. Possibly new examples of Fury and Crystal utilized differently with both dragons?

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  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Makes sense as a theory

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  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 21, 2021

    I think we may need more information on how Jormag and Primordus are adjusting the magic of other Elder Dragons to better understand this.

    We know Primordus minions are back to looking like they use to be because he has readjusted the magical energy of the other Elder Dragons he absorbed. However, it does appear they lost certain powers but may have gained some kind of new power due to these adjustments.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 22, 2021

    Currently we have two pieces of information from Taimi regarding Primordus:

    First DRM:

    Taimi: Incredible. The destroyers are all linked—their energy signatures read as Primordus whenever they attacked.
    Taimi: I wonder if their connection to him strengthens when they burn...?

    Then in the council chamber:

    Taimi: That link we discovered between the destroyers and Primordus? A feedback loop, amplified by Kralk's death.
    Gorrik: Destroyers burn more, Primordus gets stronger, destroyers get more rabid. The effect is exponential.

    Not sure if this is a trait of the Fury or Crystal domain, though, I do recall this from Kesho regarding Kralkatorrik and his branded regarding their weakness:

    Josso Essher: Its creations share a fundamental resonance that connects them back to the crystal dragon and makes them vulnerable to each other.

    As well as from Glint in Scion and Champion:

    Glint: Kralkatorrik and his minions share a common resonance. This strength can also be a weakness.

    I suppose it’s because that Primordus possibly absorb the Fury Domain would explain why the destroyers are acting rabid, ignoring certain strategic locations as mentioned in Metrica and Gendarran.

    Jormag’s Frozen appear to be a new ability too, as it’s never been mentioned until now. I assumed this is the ice and crystal domain combined.

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:
    We know Primordus minions are back to looking like they use to be because he has readjusted the magical energy of the other Elder Dragons he absorbed.

    We don’t know that’s the reason; that’s just Phlunt’s running theory.

    This season hasn’t been subtle with inconsistencies in lore or power sets, really.

    I’m not sure it’s meant to be new. Either way, the dialogue keeps painting this picture of an innate connection between Prim and Jor. So if Primordus gets stronger through more fire and destruction, the opposite must be true for Jormag freezing more of the world. Their bond could even mean they share the same magic pool, and are always in a tug of war match over who gets more of that pool. New magic absorbed by one is new magic for both.

    I’m just rambling now lol.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    Jormag’s Frozen appear to be a new ability too, as it’s never been mentioned until now. I assumed this is the ice and crystal domain combined.

    Jormag did have a tendency to freeze things in blocks of ice before, but it was usually possible to thaw or break them out. This time around, the effect appears to be considerably stronger.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 22, 2021

    @Svennis.3852 said:

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:
    We know Primordus minions are back to looking like they use to be because he has readjusted the magical energy of the other Elder Dragons he absorbed.

    We don’t know that’s the reason; that’s just Phlunt’s running theory.

    This season hasn’t been subtle with inconsistencies in lore or power sets, really.

    I’m not sure it’s meant to be new. Either way, the dialogue keeps painting this picture of an innate connection between Prim and Jor. So if Primordus gets stronger through more fire and destruction, the opposite must be true for Jormag freezing more of the world. Their bond could even mean they share the same magic pool, and are always in a tug of war match over who gets more of that pool. New magic absorbed by one is new magic for both.

    I’m just rambling now lol.

    Its stated that they're literally twinned, which is when one entity splits into two (possibly their "mother" used this method of reproduction). So I think this theory is quite sound, and all evidence we've seen so far points to it.

    Because Elder Dragons seem naturally gluttonous, one would always want to destroy the other to regain that power.

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  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

    @Hannelore.8153 said:

    @Svennis.3852 said:

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:
    We know Primordus minions are back to looking like they use to be because he has readjusted the magical energy of the other Elder Dragons he absorbed.

    We don’t know that’s the reason; that’s just Phlunt’s running theory.

    This season hasn’t been subtle with inconsistencies in lore or power sets, really.

    I’m not sure it’s meant to be new. Either way, the dialogue keeps painting this picture of an innate connection between Prim and Jor. So if Primordus gets stronger through more fire and destruction, the opposite must be true for Jormag freezing more of the world. Their bond could even mean they share the same magic pool, and are always in a tug of war match over who gets more of that pool. New magic absorbed by one is new magic for both.

    I’m just rambling now lol.

    Its stated that they're literally twinned, which is when one entity splits into two (possibly their "mother" used this method of reproduction). So I think this theory is quite sound, and all evidence we've seen so far points to it.

    Because Elder Dragons seem naturally gluttonous, one would always want to destroy the other to regain that power.

    It would be interesting if they’re conjoined twins somehow. Something akin to their tails being linked and the “two faces of a coin comment” being more literal. I want to say there’s some folklore about dragons conjoined and always wanting to kill the other in some culture, but I can’t remember... might be making it up. That’d have to be an impossibly like body though, and if J is moving through the mists it doesn’t make as much sense.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Can someone clarify a possible misunderstanding of mine. I believe it is stated that Jormag's ice can't be melted by Primordus' fire in one of the DRMs and freezing people is helping to preserve/protect them. Maybe I misheard that bit of diaolgue completely, but if that's true, how can that work if Jormag is weak to Primordus?

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  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Can someone clarify a possible misunderstanding of mine. I believe it is stated that Jormag's ice can't be melted by Primordus' fire in one of the DRMs and freezing people is helping to preserve/protect them. Maybe I misheard that bit of diaolgue completely, but if that's true, how can that work if Jormag is weak to Primordus?

    Yeah it was from the Lake Doric DRM:

    Ryland Steelcatcher: Destroyers can't burn Jormag's Frozen. This is how we destroy Primordus. Get your priorities in order.
    Crecia Stoneglow: What's wrong with you? These aren't fighters, they're farmers. You're cutting down innocent people!
    Ryland Steelcatcher: They're not dead. One day, long after you've lived and died, they'll thaw. And I'll be there to lead them.
    Ryland Steelcatcher: Until then, their sacrifice will help unchain Jormag. Welcome to the new world.

    So... yeah your right, it doesn’t make a lot of sense unless, this is a new ability that Jormag has acquired from Kralkatorrik as he was also able to encase people in crystal. If this a combined ice and crystal, making it resistant to the fire magic, then it would make sense why Primordus can’t burn it.

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 22, 2021

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Can someone clarify a possible misunderstanding of mine. I believe it is stated that Jormag's ice can't be melted by Primordus' fire in one of the DRMs and freezing people is helping to preserve/protect them. Maybe I misheard that bit of diaolgue completely, but if that's true, how can that work if Jormag is weak to Primordus?

    Yeah it was from the Lake Doric DRM:

    Ryland Steelcatcher: Destroyers can't burn Jormag's Frozen. This is how we destroy Primordus. Get your priorities in order.
    Crecia Stoneglow: What's wrong with you? These aren't fighters, they're farmers. You're cutting down innocent people!
    Ryland Steelcatcher: They're not dead. One day, long after you've lived and died, they'll thaw. And I'll be there to lead them.
    Ryland Steelcatcher: Until then, their sacrifice will help unchain Jormag. Welcome to the new world.

    So... yeah your right, it doesn’t make a lot of sense unless, this is a new ability that Jormag has acquired from Kralkatorrik as he was also able to encase people in crystal. If this a combined ice and crystal, making it resistant to the fire magic, then it would make sense why Primordus can’t burn it.

    It is most likely the result of Kralkatorrik side of magic fusing with Jormag's Ice.

    Now Jormag's Ice is like being frozen in Crystals and may have develop magic resistance to heat.

    This maybe of course is a flaw in Ryland's plan and expectations because if Jormag's Ice is now naturally resistance to heat because of Kralk's magic fused into her own magic then these people will forever be frozen and never thaw out. However, this is a case of being too blinded by all the promises from Jormag for something that is uncertain will happen or not because these promises require a very long time to happen so he can't see beyond the trees in this forest of lies Jormag has placed him into.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 22, 2021

    Both Primordus and Jormag are using the resonance magic that strengthened Kralkatorrik and his Branded and was Kralkatorrik's weakness.
    I certainly hope Arenanet won't ignore the bolded part for Jormag and Primordus.

  • @Tyson.5160 said:
    Jormag’s Frozen appear to be a new ability too, as it’s never been mentioned until now. I assumed this is the ice and crystal domain combined.

    I would disagree here. Jormag is well known for freezing individuals. We see it happen in the quaggan PS, and we see it happen in this Frostgorge event. These events result in the subject becoming Icebrood though, much like how Kralkatorrik brands through encasing in crystal. Ryland and Bangar were also corrupted by being encased in ice, the very same effect used for the Frozen iirc.

    But there is one case of a frozen individual who wasn't corrupted and didn't show any signs of being at risk of being corrupted: Rox during the Ice Beast fight in Season 3. And it should be noted that the Ice Beast model has reappeared several times in IBS as a minion of Jormag, despite its peculiar difference from other icebrood (namely that burning chest).

    I don't think this is a new ability, but rather an old ability used in a new way and amplified by a boost in power (mostly from the Lost Spirits).

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  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Jormag’s Frozen appear to be a new ability too, as it’s never been mentioned until now. I assumed this is the ice and crystal domain combined.

    I would disagree here. Jormag is well known for freezing individuals. We see it happen in the quaggan PS, and we see it happen in this Frostgorge event. These events result in the subject becoming Icebrood though, much like how Kralkatorrik brands through encasing in crystal. Ryland and Bangar were also corrupted by being encased in ice, the very same effect used for the Frozen iirc.

    But there is one case of a frozen individual who wasn't corrupted and didn't show any signs of being at risk of being corrupted: Rox during the Ice Beast fight in Season 3. And it should be noted that the Ice Beast model has reappeared several times in IBS as a minion of Jormag, despite its peculiar difference from other icebrood (namely that burning chest).

    I don't think this is a new ability, but rather an old ability used in a new way and amplified by a boost in power (mostly from the Lost Spirits).

    But you would think that using Primordus fire magic would destroy this ice, no? How is it immune to the destroyers, as stated by Ryland?

  • @Fueki.4753 said:
    Both Primordus and Jormag are using the resonance magic that strengthened Kralkatorrik and his Branded and was Kralkatorrik's weakness.
    I certainly hope Arenanet won't ignore the bolded part for Jormag and Primordus.

    I wouldn't assume that just because they gained abilities from the dead elder dragons that they also gained their weaknesses too. Otherwise, Jormag would get severely weakened from killing Drakkar and The Whisper of Jormag, just like Zhaitan with his specialized minions (I know Drakkar predates Jormag getting Zhaitan magic, but he is indeed a specialized minion like the Eyes and Mouths, and like Bangar; I doubt Jormag would offer such a crucial piece of killing Jormag to Aurene if Jormag adopted Zhaitan's weaknesses as well as strengths).

    I wouldn't even say that Jormag is using resonance magic. At best, it's crystal magic but as pointed out, freezing over people into a hibernative state isn't new, it'd just be new to not be corrupting them in the process (but even that isn't entirely new, per Rox). With Primordus, we can't be certain that this is a new ability of his gained from Kralkatorrik, or an old ability which just got amplified by a boost in magic from Kralkatorrik and Balthazar.

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  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Both Primordus and Jormag are using the resonance magic that strengthened Kralkatorrik and his Branded and was Kralkatorrik's weakness.
    I certainly hope Arenanet won't ignore the bolded part for Jormag and Primordus.

    I wouldn't assume that just because they gained abilities from the dead elder dragons that they also gained their weaknesses too. Otherwise, Jormag would get severely weakened from killing Drakkar and The Whisper of Jormag, just like Zhaitan with his specialized minions (I know Drakkar predates Jormag getting Zhaitan magic, but he is indeed a specialized minion like the Eyes and Mouths, and like Bangar; I doubt Jormag would offer such a crucial piece of killing Jormag to Aurene if Jormag adopted Zhaitan's weaknesses as well as strengths).

    I wouldn't even say that Jormag is using resonance magic. At best, it's crystal magic but as pointed out, freezing over people into a hibernative state isn't new, it'd just be new to not be corrupting them in the process (but even that isn't entirely new, per Rox). With Primordus, we can't be certain that this is a new ability of his gained from Kralkatorrik, or an old ability which just got amplified by a boost in magic from Kralkatorrik and Balthazar.

    In the context of when it happened, though, I suspect Jormag's real motivation is to achieve the cold version of Primordus' "burn things, gain power" effect. Each of the Frozen is probably acting as a power source for Jormag.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 23, 2021

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Jormag’s Frozen appear to be a new ability too, as it’s never been mentioned until now. I assumed this is the ice and crystal domain combined.

    I would disagree here. Jormag is well known for freezing individuals. We see it happen in the quaggan PS, and we see it happen in this Frostgorge event. These events result in the subject becoming Icebrood though, much like how Kralkatorrik brands through encasing in crystal. Ryland and Bangar were also corrupted by being encased in ice, the very same effect used for the Frozen iirc.

    But there is one case of a frozen individual who wasn't corrupted and didn't show any signs of being at risk of being corrupted: Rox during the Ice Beast fight in Season 3. And it should be noted that the Ice Beast model has reappeared several times in IBS as a minion of Jormag, despite its peculiar difference from other icebrood (namely that burning chest).

    I don't think this is a new ability, but rather an old ability used in a new way and amplified by a boost in power (mostly from the Lost Spirits).

    But you would think that using Primordus fire magic would destroy this ice, no? How is it immune to the destroyers, as stated by Ryland?

    The short answer? Jormag's blood.

    In Drizzlewood, specifically the story of episode 4, it's established that the glaciers that moved back were formed out of Jormag's blood, and that as such they held a high quantity of magic - magic Jormag was pulling back into themself to hasten its awakening. This form of corrupted ice, dubbed by ANet devs as "Torment Ice" (due to being retextured versions of the rocks made for the Mouth of Torment in The Desolation) is not like the typical and easier-to-destroy shimmering black-and-blue ice we saw through the core game and Bitterfrost, but is instead made from Jormag's blood. Much like the Sanguinary Blade.

    Because of that, it's not just more potent in corrupting, it's overall stronger in Jormag's magic because it's made from a higher quantity of said magic. In the same way that Dragonsblood Spears made from Kralkatorrik's crystallized blood were far superior to those made from Branded crystallized blood.

    This would make it harder (or outright impossible) for destroyers to damage. Primordus, however, should have an easier time of it - same with something made out of a higher quantity of Primordus magic than the current destroyers at least.

    When the maps were found by that_shaman, I was a bit confused as to why they were using this corrupted ice rather than the original corrupted ice if it was just "Jormag's corruption", but if the intent was "higher concentration of Jormag's magic", then it makes sense to use this, the highest concentration there could be.

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  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    This would make it harder (or outright impossible) for destroyers to damage. Primordus, however, should have an easier time of it - same with something made out of a higher quantity of Primordus magic than the current destroyers at least.

    So something like the primordial fire in Edge of Destiny (which could burn even Destroyers, which in the book were presented as completely immune to Sohothin's fire) would probably be able to do it.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Jormag’s Frozen appear to be a new ability too, as it’s never been mentioned until now. I assumed this is the ice and crystal domain combined.

    I would disagree here. Jormag is well known for freezing individuals. We see it happen in the quaggan PS, and we see it happen in this Frostgorge event. These events result in the subject becoming Icebrood though, much like how Kralkatorrik brands through encasing in crystal. Ryland and Bangar were also corrupted by being encased in ice, the very same effect used for the Frozen iirc.

    But there is one case of a frozen individual who wasn't corrupted and didn't show any signs of being at risk of being corrupted: Rox during the Ice Beast fight in Season 3. And it should be noted that the Ice Beast model has reappeared several times in IBS as a minion of Jormag, despite its peculiar difference from other icebrood (namely that burning chest).

    I don't think this is a new ability, but rather an old ability used in a new way and amplified by a boost in power (mostly from the Lost Spirits).

    But you would think that using Primordus fire magic would destroy this ice, no? How is it immune to the destroyers, as stated by Ryland?

    The short answer? Jormag's blood.

    In Drizzlewood, specifically the story of episode 4, it's established that the glaciers that moved back were formed out of Jormag's blood, and that as such they held a high quantity of magic - magic Jormag was pulling back into themself to hasten its awakening. This form of corrupted ice, dubbed by ANet devs as "Torment Ice" (due to being retextured versions of the rocks made for the Mouth of Torment in The Desolation) is not like the typical and easier-to-destroy shimmering black-and-blue ice we saw through the core game and Bitterfrost, but is instead made from Jormag's blood. Much like the Sanguinary Blade.

    Because of that, it's not just more potent in corrupting, it's overall stronger in Jormag's magic because it's made from a higher quantity of said magic. In the same way that Dragonsblood Spears made from Kralkatorrik's crystallized blood were far superior to those made from Branded crystallized blood.

    This would make it harder (or outright impossible) for destroyers to damage. Primordus, however, should have an easier time of it - same with something made out of a higher quantity of Primordus magic than the current destroyers at least.

    When the maps were found by that_shaman, I was a bit confused as to why they were using this corrupted ice rather than the original corrupted ice if it was just "Jormag's corruption", but if the intent was "higher concentration of Jormag's magic", then it makes sense to use this, the highest concentration there could be.

    Couple things; both dragons clearly got a magic boost from Kralkatorrik, this is a fact, no disputing this. I guess the question is, what did each dragon get?

    Jormag clearly got a bit of Balthazar’s magic from Kralkatorrik, as he is able to mist travel.

    Is it that possibility that Primordus acquired, the Crystal and Fury aspect then, with the new feedback loop. This seems to be a new thing, never came up in core or Season 3, however is now a thing in IBS, with Taimi advising that the ability has amplified by Kralkatorrik’s death. The loop itself does seem to have characteristics of Crystal magic, with the destroyers going increasingly rabid and out of control could be an aspect of Fury magic.

  • @Tyson.5160 said:
    Couple things; both dragons clearly got a magic boost from Kralkatorrik, this is a fact, no disputing this. I guess the question is, what did each dragon get?

    Jormag clearly got a bit of Balthazar’s magic from Kralkatorrik, as he is able to mist travel.

    Is it that possibility that Primordus acquired, the Crystal and Fury aspect then, with the new feedback loop. This seems to be a new thing, never came up in core or Season 3, however is now a thing in IBS, with Taimi advising that the ability has amplified by Kralkatorrik’s death. The loop itself does seem to have characteristics of Crystal magic, with the destroyers going increasingly rabid and out of control could be an aspect of Fury magic.

    Never said that they didn't get power boosts from Kralkatorrik's (or Balthazar's) death. However, I don't think they necessarily got access to either of his domains. Keep in mind, Aurene took in the lion's share of Kralkatorrik's magic, but showed no sign of having gained powers from the magic of Zhaitan, Balthazar, or possibly Mordremoth from that moment. At most, we do see her using plants, but it's well known she got a decent portion of Mordy's magic on his death, so the flowers could be from that (just as Caithe got crystal flowers before Kralk's death when Aurene branded her).

    While there is a very factual flow of magic from Kralkatorrik's death that boosted Jormag and Primordus, for all we know that was the foreign magic that Kralkatorrik consumed, and Aurene let out nothing that was Crystal and Fury. Which means to say that the two Elder Dragons would have gotten more of Zhaitan's, Mordremoth's, and Balthazar's (we also know that Kralk and Aurene didn't consume all of Balthazar's magic, since the entire lore behind volatile magic floating around in Season 4 is magic altered by Balthazar's death).

    As to the feedback loop being new or not - Primordus was never studied completely, he was very enigmatic throughout Core and even in Season 3. Just because it's a new discovery and new to the audience, doesn't mean it's a new ability. After all, the writers swap around a lot, and could be slipping that in as being an old ability, just like how "corrupting corpses" was retroactively impossible for the five ED (despite us seeing Jormag do that) until Zhaitan died.

    The writers are even rebranding Primordus as the dragon of fire and destruction, rather than conflagaration, and the feedback loop where Primordus gets power from destroying things could be them explaining this second domain in Primordus (something they never firmly did with Kralkatorrik and that got disappointed commentary by the lore community).

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  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    To be fair, "fire and conflagration" is basically saying "fire and bigger fire", so I don't think it's exactly a retcon that Primordus has a second domain rather than just having fire and more fire. Destruction was one of the common speculations as to what Primordus' second domain might be.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    To be fair, "fire and conflagration" is basically saying "fire and bigger fire", so I don't think it's exactly a retcon that Primordus has a second domain rather than just having fire and more fire. Destruction was one of the common speculations as to what Primordus' second domain might be.

    You could argue that conflagration is just another word for destruction as well.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I’ll take a look some of those old story missions because it seems the frozen ice models appear different then the ones that appear before more of navy blue then light blue.

    This feedback loop is also making the destroyers more rabid. So if the feedback loop isn’t a new ability, possibly demonstrating the destruction/ conflagration, the rabid part may be new. Taimi did say that this ability has been amplified by Kralkatorrik’s magic, so clearly Primordus has obtained something from Kralkatorrik.

    Taimi makes a bunch of comments as well as Jhavi and Marjory.

    Taimi: Almost had it!
    : So did we.
    Braham Eirsson: The arena. It's headed over there.
    Taimi: How do you—that doesn't even make any sense: the portal's over here.
    Taimi: Destroyers definitely do not have reason... New algorithm's almost locked on. Hold just a sec

    Jhavi Jorasdottir: I assumed it was to draw us away from the gates of Lion's Arch. But that doesn't make any sense.
    Jhavi Jorasdottir: They tried hitting those first, to draw us away from the settlement. Jory was the only one who saw it.
    Jhavi Jorasdottir: Maybe Primordus just thrives on chaos. A settlement of defenseless villagers would be a prime target.

    Marjory Delaqua: You don't have to be a killer Krytan sleuth to see this settlement is a more attractive target than Lion's Arch.
    Marjory Delaqua: Primordus causes destruction. It's his MO. No better way to do that than set fire to the most vulnerable.

    Taimi: That link we discovered between the destroyers and Primordus? A feedback loop, amplified by Kralk's death.
    Gorrik: Destroyers burn more, Primordus gets stronger, destroyers get more rabid. The effect is exponential.

    Maybe Primordus obtained a bit of the fury magic from Kralkatorrik, which is causing the rabid side of the destroyers.

  • @Tyson.5160 said:
    I’ll take a look some of those old story missions because it seems the frozen ice models appear different then the ones that appear before more of navy blue then light blue.

    If you're referring to the ice encasing the villagers in the DRMs, then that is newly created for IBS. But many models got updated or replaced for IBS, such as the Icebrood Goliath that got a complete retexture when Episode 2 came out (like the Inquest Golems did).

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Taimi did say that this ability has been amplified by Kralkatorrik’s magic, so clearly Primordus has obtained something from Kralkatorrik.

    Sure, but no reason it must be access to one of its domains. Especially since Primordus has managed to filter the death and plant magic to convert it into fire and destruction magic. It would be a bit weird to me, for Primordus to have Fury/Crystal magic, but no visible show of this in the destroyers. One would expect burning crystals or something, I'd imagine.

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  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I’ll take a look some of those old story missions because it seems the frozen ice models appear different then the ones that appear before more of navy blue then light blue.

    If you're referring to the ice encasing the villagers in the DRMs, then that is newly created for IBS. But many models got updated or replaced for IBS, such as the Icebrood Goliath that got a complete retexture when Episode 2 came out (like the Inquest Golems did).

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Taimi did say that this ability has been amplified by Kralkatorrik’s magic, so clearly Primordus has obtained something from Kralkatorrik.

    Sure, but no reason it must be access to one of its domains. Especially since Primordus has managed to filter the death and plant magic to convert it into fire and destruction magic. It would be a bit weird to me, for Primordus to have Fury/Crystal magic, but no visible show of this in the destroyers. One would expect burning crystals or something, I'd imagine.

    What else is interesting too, that I didn’t quite think about is the fact that we have domains in play right now, possibly with Crystal and Fury, that may not even be accessible to the other dragons. So far the other magic spheres, death, plant, mind etc. Have all been used from dead dragons. Aurene took over from Kralkatorrik, so she would for the most part be controlling those domains and potentially may not allow the other dragons to even use those abilities. So you could be correct that this magic from Kralkatorrik could be excessive magic from the other domains from the deceased dragons, until other wise stated by Anet.

    For example there may be an issue with Jormag or Primordus to even use the Crystal domain for minions because there may conflict with allowing either Aurene knowledge or some level of control with minions created with that domain, ie crystal.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2021

    Went back and looked at the story journal for the episode, which phrases the feed back loop a bit differently.

    “At this point, the fire dragon hasn't woken up. The "feedback loop" of magic between the Elder Dragon and its destroyers is creating a vicious cycle, all started with Kralkatorrik's death and the subsequent absorption of its magic. In Gorrik's words, "Destroyers burn more, Primordus gets stronger, destroyers get more rabid. The effect is exponential."”

    Primordus getting Magic from Kralkatorrik seems to be very important detail since they mentioned it in the dialogue and the journal.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I’ll take a look some of those old story missions because it seems the frozen ice models appear different then the ones that appear before more of navy blue then light blue.

    This feedback loop is also making the destroyers more rabid. So if the feedback loop isn’t a new ability, possibly demonstrating the destruction/ conflagration, the rabid part may be new. Taimi did say that this ability has been amplified by Kralkatorrik’s magic, so clearly Primordus has obtained something from Kralkatorrik.

    Taimi makes a bunch of comments as well as Jhavi and Marjory.

    Taimi: Almost had it!
    : So did we.
    Braham Eirsson: The arena. It's headed over there.
    Taimi: How do you—that doesn't even make any sense: the portal's over here.
    Taimi: Destroyers definitely do not have reason... New algorithm's almost locked on. Hold just a sec

    Jhavi Jorasdottir: I assumed it was to draw us away from the gates of Lion's Arch. But that doesn't make any sense.
    Jhavi Jorasdottir: They tried hitting those first, to draw us away from the settlement. Jory was the only one who saw it.
    Jhavi Jorasdottir: Maybe Primordus just thrives on chaos. A settlement of defenseless villagers would be a prime target.

    Marjory Delaqua: You don't have to be a killer Krytan sleuth to see this settlement is a more attractive target than Lion's Arch.
    Marjory Delaqua: Primordus causes destruction. It's his MO. No better way to do that than set fire to the most vulnerable.

    Taimi: That link we discovered between the destroyers and Primordus? A feedback loop, amplified by Kralk's death.
    Gorrik: Destroyers burn more, Primordus gets stronger, destroyers get more rabid. The effect is exponential.

    Maybe Primordus obtained a bit of the fury magic from Kralkatorrik, which is causing the rabid side of the destroyers.

    I think the destroyers burn more is just Primordus' domain of "conflagaration." But the "more rabid" could definitely be Fury. Perhaps they were more "organized" in a sense and stuck closer to Primordus in designated areas, and because of it the dwarves were able to hold them back. But the Fury aspect from Kralk is causing them to go ape-****.

    Though, to be honest, I've never really liked these domains. It's difficult understanding the difference between "Fury" and "Conflagaration" or why those would even be domains in the first place. Like, who decided.. hey.. I'm going to give you Plant and Mind, and you Crystal and Fury.

    Thinking about them as a major and minor:
    Plant, Fire, Ice, Water, Death, Crystal.
    Mind, Conflagration, Persuasion, ??, Shadow, Fury.

    It's just difficult trying to make any connection between them in terms of the general "balance" and sustaining of life.. as elder dragons are more or less a natural part of the eco-system.

    I think that's one thing that's always frustrated me about the Elder Dragons. Not knowing their origin, the reason they have these specific domains, and fearing we may never get any kind of resolution or further dive into it. But maybe that's just reading too much into it and the Elder Dragons just are. And the domains are just devices they've created to allow them to survive/thrive, like unique evolutionary traits they've developed. Just weird when you think about them being absorbed or used by the other dragons, unless they more or less absorb their essence and consciousness. Then I suppose it's less about absorbing some intangible magical ability and more just obtaining their knowledge of how to use those devices.

    If that makes any sense.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2021

    @Bast.7253 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I’ll take a look some of those old story missions because it seems the frozen ice models appear different then the ones that appear before more of navy blue then light blue.

    This feedback loop is also making the destroyers more rabid. So if the feedback loop isn’t a new ability, possibly demonstrating the destruction/ conflagration, the rabid part may be new. Taimi did say that this ability has been amplified by Kralkatorrik’s magic, so clearly Primordus has obtained something from Kralkatorrik.

    Taimi makes a bunch of comments as well as Jhavi and Marjory.

    Taimi: Almost had it!
    : So did we.
    Braham Eirsson: The arena. It's headed over there.
    Taimi: How do you—that doesn't even make any sense: the portal's over here.
    Taimi: Destroyers definitely do not have reason... New algorithm's almost locked on. Hold just a sec

    Jhavi Jorasdottir: I assumed it was to draw us away from the gates of Lion's Arch. But that doesn't make any sense.
    Jhavi Jorasdottir: They tried hitting those first, to draw us away from the settlement. Jory was the only one who saw it.
    Jhavi Jorasdottir: Maybe Primordus just thrives on chaos. A settlement of defenseless villagers would be a prime target.

    Marjory Delaqua: You don't have to be a killer Krytan sleuth to see this settlement is a more attractive target than Lion's Arch.
    Marjory Delaqua: Primordus causes destruction. It's his MO. No better way to do that than set fire to the most vulnerable.

    Taimi: That link we discovered between the destroyers and Primordus? A feedback loop, amplified by Kralk's death.
    Gorrik: Destroyers burn more, Primordus gets stronger, destroyers get more rabid. The effect is exponential.

    Maybe Primordus obtained a bit of the fury magic from Kralkatorrik, which is causing the rabid side of the destroyers.

    I think the destroyers burn more is just Primordus' domain of "conflagaration." But the "more rabid" could definitely be Fury. Perhaps they were more "organized" in a sense and stuck closer to Primordus in designated areas, and because of it the dwarves were able to hold them back. But the Fury aspect from Kralk is causing them to go ape-****.

    Though, to be honest, I've never really liked these domains. It's difficult understanding the difference between "Fury" and "Conflagaration" or why those would even be domains in the first place. Like, who decided.. hey.. I'm going to give you Plant and Mind, and you Crystal and Fury.

    Thinking about them as a major and minor:
    Plant, Fire, Ice, Water, Death, Crystal.
    Mind, Conflagration, Persuasion, ??, Shadow, Fury.

    It's just difficult trying to make any connection between them in terms of the general "balance" and sustaining of life.. as elder dragons are more or less a natural part of the eco-system.

    I think that's one thing that's always frustrated me about the Elder Dragons. Not knowing their origin, the reason they have these specific domains, and fearing we may never get any kind of resolution or further dive into it. But maybe that's just reading too much into it and the Elder Dragons just are. And the domains are just devices they've created to allow them to survive/thrive, like unique evolutionary traits they've developed. Just weird when you think about them being absorbed or used by the other dragons, unless they more or less absorb their essence and consciousness. Then I suppose it's less about absorbing some intangible magical ability and more just obtaining their knowledge of how to use those devices.

    If that makes any sense.

    Yeah, I considered that as well, what’s interesting too is how if you read the story journal it gives a slightly more different play on the same words that Taimi used. I’m sure the destruction aspect could be a cause of the loop and like you said the rabid part could be a small aspect of Fury.

    Anyhow the journal says this:

    “ The "feedback loop" of magic between the Elder Dragon and its destroyers is creating a vicious cycle, all started with Kralkatorrik's death and the subsequent absorption of its magic. In Gorrik's words, "Destroyers burn more, Primordus gets stronger, destroyers get more rabid. The effect is exponential."”

    This seems to me that this loop is a new thing according to the journal. Why advise that’s it from Kralkatorrik’s death in the first place. You could easily cut that information away and Taimi could advise hey we discovered a new ability that Primordus had, that we never knew existed. This doesn’t seem to be the case. Whatever this feedback loop is, it seems to derive from Kralkatorrik and his magic, much like how they advised that Kralkatorrik gained advanced hive mind abilities from Mordremoth, without really saying that Kralkatorrik gained Mordremoth’s mind sphere.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Bast.7253 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I’ll take a look some of those old story missions because it seems the frozen ice models appear different then the ones that appear before more of navy blue then light blue.

    This feedback loop is also making the destroyers more rabid. So if the feedback loop isn’t a new ability, possibly demonstrating the destruction/ conflagration, the rabid part may be new. Taimi did say that this ability has been amplified by Kralkatorrik’s magic, so clearly Primordus has obtained something from Kralkatorrik.

    Taimi makes a bunch of comments as well as Jhavi and Marjory.

    Taimi: Almost had it!
    : So did we.
    Braham Eirsson: The arena. It's headed over there.
    Taimi: How do you—that doesn't even make any sense: the portal's over here.
    Taimi: Destroyers definitely do not have reason... New algorithm's almost locked on. Hold just a sec

    Jhavi Jorasdottir: I assumed it was to draw us away from the gates of Lion's Arch. But that doesn't make any sense.
    Jhavi Jorasdottir: They tried hitting those first, to draw us away from the settlement. Jory was the only one who saw it.
    Jhavi Jorasdottir: Maybe Primordus just thrives on chaos. A settlement of defenseless villagers would be a prime target.

    Marjory Delaqua: You don't have to be a killer Krytan sleuth to see this settlement is a more attractive target than Lion's Arch.
    Marjory Delaqua: Primordus causes destruction. It's his MO. No better way to do that than set fire to the most vulnerable.

    Taimi: That link we discovered between the destroyers and Primordus? A feedback loop, amplified by Kralk's death.
    Gorrik: Destroyers burn more, Primordus gets stronger, destroyers get more rabid. The effect is exponential.

    Maybe Primordus obtained a bit of the fury magic from Kralkatorrik, which is causing the rabid side of the destroyers.

    I think the destroyers burn more is just Primordus' domain of "conflagaration." But the "more rabid" could definitely be Fury. Perhaps they were more "organized" in a sense and stuck closer to Primordus in designated areas, and because of it the dwarves were able to hold them back. But the Fury aspect from Kralk is causing them to go ape-****.

    Though, to be honest, I've never really liked these domains. It's difficult understanding the difference between "Fury" and "Conflagaration" or why those would even be domains in the first place. Like, who decided.. hey.. I'm going to give you Plant and Mind, and you Crystal and Fury.

    Thinking about them as a major and minor:
    Plant, Fire, Ice, Water, Death, Crystal.
    Mind, Conflagration, Persuasion, ??, Shadow, Fury.

    It's just difficult trying to make any connection between them in terms of the general "balance" and sustaining of life.. as elder dragons are more or less a natural part of the eco-system.

    I think that's one thing that's always frustrated me about the Elder Dragons. Not knowing their origin, the reason they have these specific domains, and fearing we may never get any kind of resolution or further dive into it. But maybe that's just reading too much into it and the Elder Dragons just are. And the domains are just devices they've created to allow them to survive/thrive, like unique evolutionary traits they've developed. Just weird when you think about them being absorbed or used by the other dragons, unless they more or less absorb their essence and consciousness. Then I suppose it's less about absorbing some intangible magical ability and more just obtaining their knowledge of how to use those devices.

    If that makes any sense.

    Yeah, I considered that as well, what’s interesting too is how if you read the story journal it gives a slightly more different play on the same words that Taimi used. I’m sure the destruction aspect could be a cause of the loop and like you said the rabid part could be a small aspect of Fury.

    Anyhow the journal says this:

    “ The "feedback loop" of magic between the Elder Dragon and its destroyers is creating a vicious cycle, all started with Kralkatorrik's death and the subsequent absorption of its magic. In Gorrik's words, "Destroyers burn more, Primordus gets stronger, destroyers get more rabid. The effect is exponential."”

    This seems to me that this loop is a new thing according to the journal. Why advise that’s it from Kralkatorrik’s death in the first place. You could easily cut that information away and Taimi could advise hey we discovered a new ability that Primordus had, that we never knew existed. This doesn’t seem to be the case. Whatever this feedback loop is, it seems to derive from Kralkatorrik and his magic, much like how they advised that Kralkatorrik gained advanced hive mind abilities from Mordremoth, without really saying that Kralkatorrik gained Mordremoth’s mind sphere.

    Possibly. But I think the interpretation of that is pretty open. It could be implying a new ability gained by Kralk, or it could just simply be the release of magic (no matter how much Aurene seems to have absorbed) that caused them to stir. Especially given the lines last year about Drakkar absorbing magic from Kralk's death.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bast.7253 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Bast.7253 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I’ll take a look some of those old story missions because it seems the frozen ice models appear different then the ones that appear before more of navy blue then light blue.

    This feedback loop is also making the destroyers more rabid. So if the feedback loop isn’t a new ability, possibly demonstrating the destruction/ conflagration, the rabid part may be new. Taimi did say that this ability has been amplified by Kralkatorrik’s magic, so clearly Primordus has obtained something from Kralkatorrik.

    Taimi makes a bunch of comments as well as Jhavi and Marjory.

    Taimi: Almost had it!
    : So did we.
    Braham Eirsson: The arena. It's headed over there.
    Taimi: How do you—that doesn't even make any sense: the portal's over here.
    Taimi: Destroyers definitely do not have reason... New algorithm's almost locked on. Hold just a sec

    Jhavi Jorasdottir: I assumed it was to draw us away from the gates of Lion's Arch. But that doesn't make any sense.
    Jhavi Jorasdottir: They tried hitting those first, to draw us away from the settlement. Jory was the only one who saw it.
    Jhavi Jorasdottir: Maybe Primordus just thrives on chaos. A settlement of defenseless villagers would be a prime target.

    Marjory Delaqua: You don't have to be a killer Krytan sleuth to see this settlement is a more attractive target than Lion's Arch.
    Marjory Delaqua: Primordus causes destruction. It's his MO. No better way to do that than set fire to the most vulnerable.

    Taimi: That link we discovered between the destroyers and Primordus? A feedback loop, amplified by Kralk's death.
    Gorrik: Destroyers burn more, Primordus gets stronger, destroyers get more rabid. The effect is exponential.

    Maybe Primordus obtained a bit of the fury magic from Kralkatorrik, which is causing the rabid side of the destroyers.

    I think the destroyers burn more is just Primordus' domain of "conflagaration." But the "more rabid" could definitely be Fury. Perhaps they were more "organized" in a sense and stuck closer to Primordus in designated areas, and because of it the dwarves were able to hold them back. But the Fury aspect from Kralk is causing them to go ape-****.

    Though, to be honest, I've never really liked these domains. It's difficult understanding the difference between "Fury" and "Conflagaration" or why those would even be domains in the first place. Like, who decided.. hey.. I'm going to give you Plant and Mind, and you Crystal and Fury.

    Thinking about them as a major and minor:
    Plant, Fire, Ice, Water, Death, Crystal.
    Mind, Conflagration, Persuasion, ??, Shadow, Fury.

    It's just difficult trying to make any connection between them in terms of the general "balance" and sustaining of life.. as elder dragons are more or less a natural part of the eco-system.

    I think that's one thing that's always frustrated me about the Elder Dragons. Not knowing their origin, the reason they have these specific domains, and fearing we may never get any kind of resolution or further dive into it. But maybe that's just reading too much into it and the Elder Dragons just are. And the domains are just devices they've created to allow them to survive/thrive, like unique evolutionary traits they've developed. Just weird when you think about them being absorbed or used by the other dragons, unless they more or less absorb their essence and consciousness. Then I suppose it's less about absorbing some intangible magical ability and more just obtaining their knowledge of how to use those devices.

    If that makes any sense.

    Yeah, I considered that as well, what’s interesting too is how if you read the story journal it gives a slightly more different play on the same words that Taimi used. I’m sure the destruction aspect could be a cause of the loop and like you said the rabid part could be a small aspect of Fury.

    Anyhow the journal says this:

    “ The "feedback loop" of magic between the Elder Dragon and its destroyers is creating a vicious cycle, all started with Kralkatorrik's death and the subsequent absorption of its magic. In Gorrik's words, "Destroyers burn more, Primordus gets stronger, destroyers get more rabid. The effect is exponential."”

    This seems to me that this loop is a new thing according to the journal. Why advise that’s it from Kralkatorrik’s death in the first place. You could easily cut that information away and Taimi could advise hey we discovered a new ability that Primordus had, that we never knew existed. This doesn’t seem to be the case. Whatever this feedback loop is, it seems to derive from Kralkatorrik and his magic, much like how they advised that Kralkatorrik gained advanced hive mind abilities from Mordremoth, without really saying that Kralkatorrik gained Mordremoth’s mind sphere.

    Possibly. But I think the interpretation of that is pretty open. It could be implying a new ability gained by Kralk, or it could just simply be the release of magic (no matter how much Aurene seems to have absorbed) that caused them to stir. Especially given the lines last year about Drakkar absorbing magic from Kralk's death.

    Yeah, I suppose. It’s very possible that this is a form of Crystal and Fury Domain in regards to the feedback loop too, the common resonance from the Crystal domain that allowed for the branded to be weak to each other and Kralkatorrik, as well as the Fury domain making them rabid and semi unorganized, but we’ll have to see more evidence from future releases hopefully.

    Like you were saying before look at how each dragon have been using each other’s power, it all seems slightly different.

    Mordremoth was able to create minions from the dead due to the absorption from Zhaitan death magic as well as use some Shadow domain for himself in its final battle as well as with the Shadow of the Dragon.

    Primordus infused death and plant magic into his destroyers from both deceased dragons. While we have this new feed back loop from Kralkatorrik apparently.

    Jormag appeared to be experimenting with death and plant icebrood, and uses death magic to speak through corpses, as well has gain the ability from Balthazar to Mist travel.

    Kralkatorrik was able to create branded from the dead as well and resurrect dead branded minions, as well as use an advanced hive mind from Mordremoth’s mind sphere. He was also able to use Mist Travel as well from Balthazar.

    We’ll see if Jormag or Primordus has further tricks up their sleeves as well as what the DSD has acquired in terms of magic domains.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 26, 2021

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    This would make it harder (or outright impossible) for destroyers to damage. Primordus, however, should have an easier time of it - same with something made out of a higher quantity of Primordus magic than the current destroyers at least.

    So something like the primordial fire in Edge of Destiny (which could burn even Destroyers, which in the book were presented as completely immune to Sohothin's fire) would probably be able to do it.

    Curiously we can burn destroyers now. That may be just to balance the gameplay for guardians playing the story. But perhaps it's related to us being a champion of Aurene.

    Fury contains sun magic, perhaps our fire is now hot enough to melt rock.

    And ice is crystalline. I'm guessing we could shatter the ice surrounding the Frozen with the wings we've manifested before to shatter crystal in the Descent. Though that might kill the people inside.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 26, 2021

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    This would make it harder (or outright impossible) for destroyers to damage. Primordus, however, should have an easier time of it - same with something made out of a higher quantity of Primordus magic than the current destroyers at least.

    So something like the primordial fire in Edge of Destiny (which could burn even Destroyers, which in the book were presented as completely immune to Sohothin's fire) would probably be able to do it.

    Curiously we can burn destroyers now. That may be just to balance the gameplay for guardians playing the story. But perhaps it's related to us being a champion of Aurene.

    Fury contains sun magic, perhaps our fire is now hot enough to melt rock.

    And ice is crystalline. I'm guessing we could shatter the ice surrounding the Frozen with the wings we've manifested before to shatter crystal in the Descent. Though that might kill the people inside.

    The fairness of gameplay for guardians, eles, berserkers etc will be the overriding reason. But, the explanation in lore can pretty go in a few directions. For me, I've put it down to the explanation that Primordus' adapting the magic he absorbed from other Dragons has has the side effect of remaining susceptible to our burning (as per LS3) even though he isn't directly utilising their magic anymore. Combine that with the idea of Aurene's influence/your idea above alteriung our burning spells and it seems to hold together enough for gameplay purposes

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .