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Mother = Koda?

TeeracK.3601TeeracK.3601 Member ✭✭
edited February 5, 2021 in Lore

Okay so I have a bit of a theory about who mother is that I'm still trying to flesh out and think about.

When I heard the Kralk say "mother" I instantly thought of the creation myth of Grandmother Spider. Spiders are a big part of a lot of creation myths but the two I version of the her myth I want to mostly focus on are these.

First Tale

This story begins with Tawa (the sun god) and Spider Woman (Spider Grandmother) who is identified with the Earth Goddess.[1][3] They separate themselves to create other lesser gods, then create the earth and its creatures. Spider Woman and Tawa realized the creatures they made were not alive so they gave them souls. After this, they created woman and man from their own likeness and sang them to life. From there, Spider Woman separated creatures into tribes and lead them through the Four Great Caverns. After they came to their final home, Spider Woman tells the people the roles of a woman and a man, as well as the religious practices they were to follow. It is also noted that Fred Eggan found this version to be close to the Zuni creation myth.[5]

and

The Four worlds and the Emergence

In this narrative, Grandmother Spider is also known as the Good Spirit. She acts as a guide to the creatures in the first world, helping them travel to the higher worlds.[6] She guides and mentors them as they change into different forms, slowly becoming more human. She leaves the creatures in the fourth world (the high world) to settle permanently.[4]

Now I'm thinking that mother is actually Koda and Koda is based around this Grandmother Spider Myth.

Some similarities between Kodan and Native clute

  • A lot of Kodan aesthetics have an Inuit like themes, and the native Americans who had this creation myth of the Grandmother Spider were actually originally descended from Inuit people who crossed over from Alaska a very long time ago.
  • The kodan they have a strong belief in the importance of being in balance with the world around them just like native people.
  • The name kodan itself is a Dakota name. The language used by the native people in america and canada.

Looking over the text from "The Wisdom and Power of the Kodan

Long ago, Koda, the Ancient One, Founder of the Earth, Keeper of the Sky, formed the world. In the beginning, the spirits of the world were wild and untamed. In time, many took physical form: spirits of stone, spirits of water, spirits of wind, spirits of soil, spirits of plants and birds and creeping things. All things with form have spirits... as do many formless things.

But one day the bear stood up and looked around him and saw that the spirits of the world were restless and chaotic. He could not understand the endless cycles of creation and destruction. And so bear was the first creature to speak, and with his first words he asked Koda, "Why is this so?" And Koda was pleased and made this offer to the bear: "If you would watch and learn, then watch and learn, and you shall protect and guide the spirits of this world." And those who praised Koda and accepted this offer became the kodan.

This to me I think is plain and simple about the creation of the elder dragons and witnessing the elder dragon cycle. It also talks about how the followers of koda are guides for the spirits of the world. Which is the core idea for most of the stories about the Grandmother Spider.

Another thing listed.

They believe that all beings are fated to come back again and again, but each time reborn as members of the same race—a sort of spiritual purity maintained throughout reincarnations. Humans come back as humans, charr return as charr, kodan come back as kodan. Only when you are greatly enlightened do you "advance," and are reincarnated as a member of the next race in the balance.

Again a strong parallels to the second Spider Grandmother legend about how they guild spirits on their travels are they grow and change and evolve to be more human(tho in this case it more kodan like, tho it does suggest and interesting idea between the norn, kodan, and even humanity if becoming more human is considered a higher state of being or something. Dont forget humans are originally from a different world sheppard to Tyria by the gods.).

Other notes and observations.

  • The relationship between humanity and their gods as well as the fact humanity came from another world sort of reminds me of the way humanity is talked about in the legends.
  • It also makes me wonder if the fact norn just look like humans isn't random, but maybe it has to do some with kind of devine evolution of their spirits.
  • the way elder dragons create their minions mirrors similarly to the creation myth
  • Things that harm elder dragons sacred flame, eternal sacred, Sohothin & Magdaer, Bran's bow. All of the things that work well on elder dragons are flame themed and we know that the Brazier of Koda was given to the kodan by Koda and it also has a similar effect.
  • Koda's flame and warmth and even some visuals in old gw2 trailers suggest a connection to the sun and the Spider Godmother is also called the sun god.
  • Spider's are often consumed by their children so maybe the elder dragons ate her?

Bonus idea

  • If this ends up being true I cant help but also think about to how in the gw1.dat there was the section about Arachnia. A spider god older then the 6 and its remains were in the realm of torment. I know the .dat isn't considered cannon, but they can still use ideas from it. The first things I thought about when kralk yells torment at us was that this could all be tied back to Arachnia as either a courted mother or maybe the "bad" version of her considering the spider grandmother was also know as the "good spirit." If everything is about balance then it would make sense for there to be an opposite to mother and her guidance.

Comments

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2021

    IMO there is is nothing to support that.

    Quite the contrary, Koda is clearly designated as a he and a bear. I think the text more refer to a "father" (since a bear was the first to question him). Koda is basicly the original Kodan man-bear-thing.

    Now, whether that bear kittened a spider and made dragons I'll leave to your imagination.

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2021

    I always found the idea of the symbiotic Voice of Koda and Claw of Koda thatis used in Kodan society, might tie into Jormag somehow given Jormag also has a Claw and a Voice. Now it could just be a simple resuing of themes, but there could be something more there

    Not that we will ever find out. If there was anything to explore, the Icebrood Saga was the time to do it and that ship seems to have sailed

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Also, while Anet does like to mix and match real world cultural themes, there's very little in the Kodan's aesthetics that resemble those of the Inuit people...a build a small city into an iceberg isn't the same as an the igloos Inuits historically (and sometimes still do) lived in. The buildings of said iceberg are actually based more off of Tibetan style to them. As for their clothing and weapons (what little they wear)...I don't actually know, but again it doesn't look Inuit.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • @Dawdler.8521 said:
    IMO there is is nothing to support that.

    Quite the contrary, Koda is clearly designated as a he and a bear. I think the text more refer to a "father" (since a bear was the first to question him). Koda is basicly the original Kodan man-bear-thing.

    Now, whether that bear kittened a spider and made dragons I'll leave to your imagination.

    I don't think Koda is ever gendered in game is he? I know they refer to them as a he in the The Wisdom and Power of the Kodan which they wrote before the game even released, but I'm pretty sure much like Jormag they dev's avoid ever gendering them in game and use they/them.

  • QuickRain.4735QuickRain.4735 Member ✭✭
    edited February 3, 2021

    Does he hold still and try to kill people with retaliation?

  • @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    Also, while Anet does like to mix and match real world cultural themes, there's very little in the Kodan's aesthetics that resemble those of the Inuit people...a build a small city into an iceberg isn't the same as an the igloos Inuits historically (and sometimes still do) lived in. The buildings of said iceberg are actually based more off of Tibetan style to them. As for their clothing and weapons (what little they wear)...I don't actually know, but again it doesn't look Inuit.

    The name Koda literally is a Dakota(lanuge used by the natives in america/candada) name. They for sure mixed the kodan with other things to make them more unique but there are clearly some aspects of them influenced/inspired by real life inuit and native people.

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 4, 2021

    @TeeracK.3601 said:

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    Also, while Anet does like to mix and match real world cultural themes, there's very little in the Kodan's aesthetics that resemble those of the Inuit people...a build a small city into an iceberg isn't the same as an the igloos Inuits historically (and sometimes still do) lived in. The buildings of said iceberg are actually based more off of Tibetan style to them. As for their clothing and weapons (what little they wear)...I don't actually know, but again it doesn't look Inuit.

    The name Koda literally is a Dakota(lanuge used by the natives in america/candada) name. They for sure mixed the kodan with other things to make them more unique but there are clearly some aspects of them influenced/inspired by real life inuit and native people.

    Inuit != Dakota
    While they share a common ancestry they are THOUSANDS of years removed from each other, they are distinct peoples with distinct cultures beliefs and language . It annoys me to no end, as someone with Cherokee heritage, how a lot of people, including those who profess to be 'woke', can't figure out that the Native Americans (and Canadian Aboriginals) are all different peoples but instead clump them all together.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TeeracK.3601 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    IMO there is is nothing to support that.

    Quite the contrary, Koda is clearly designated as a he and a bear. I think the text more refer to a "father" (since a bear was the first to question him). Koda is basicly the original Kodan man-bear-thing.

    Now, whether that bear kittened a spider and made dragons I'll leave to your imagination.

    I don't think Koda is ever gendered in game is he? I know they refer to them as a he in the The Wisdom and Power of the Kodan which they wrote before the game even released, but I'm pretty sure much like Jormag they dev's avoid ever gendering them in game and use they/them.

    Some random dialogues:

    Deep Song: Koda's will is rage! Koda's will is destruction!
    Kodan Defender: Koda tests the Voice. His rage consumes her. The Time of Trial is upon us.

    Flamebearer: Fire made other spirits sad, and Koda was not pleased. He demanded that we guide the spirit, teach it where to go.

    But the most telling IMO...

    Player: Who is Koda?
    Watchful Moon: Koda is the primal spirit who guides all kodan. His representatives, the Claw and the Voice, are chosen to receive and interpret his wishes. In this camp, we have no Claw, no Voice. We are just ourselves.

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • Fenom.9457Fenom.9457 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I can believe if anet gives more time to the Kodan in the future (pls), they might do some lore inspired by this, but I highly doubt it will connect to the elder dragon “mother” plot

    I'd rather keep going.. wherever the wind takes us

  • Grand Marshal.4098Grand Marshal.4098 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 4, 2021

    I guess Koda follows the similar idea as a gendered deity as Ameyalli of the Jungle and Zintl the Sun. Wouldn't surprise me tbh. Although I do question why leave the whole gender thing for the Elder Dragons so convoluted. Why is Jormag suddenly a they and what not, when Primordus, Zhaitan, Mordremoth and Karkatorrik are pretty much implied to be males? I don't get it. Humans gods have genders, the spirits of the wild clrearly identify as something...Only the Eternal Alchemy and the Dream, 2 concepts are obviously not entities to have a gender.

    I suppose Jormag is special.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    It annoys me to no end, as someone with Cherokee heritage, how a lot of people, including those who profess to be 'woke', can't figure out that the Native Americans (and Canadian Aboriginals) are all different peoples but instead clump them all together.

    Considering that Canada is part of the American continent, it's not technically wrong to say the "Canadian Aboriginals" are native Americans.
    Native Americans should not exclusively be used for the natives of the U.S.A..

    Also, as someone of "East Frisian" heritage, it annoys me to get clumped together with "Bavarians", yet people keep doing that.

  • TeeracK.3601TeeracK.3601 Member ✭✭
    edited February 23, 2021

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:

    @TeeracK.3601 said:

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    Also, while Anet does like to mix and match real world cultural themes, there's very little in the Kodan's aesthetics that resemble those of the Inuit people...a build a small city into an iceberg isn't the same as an the igloos Inuits historically (and sometimes still do) lived in. The buildings of said iceberg are actually based more off of Tibetan style to them. As for their clothing and weapons (what little they wear)...I don't actually know, but again it doesn't look Inuit.

    The name Koda literally is a Dakota(lanuge used by the natives in america/candada) name. They for sure mixed the kodan with other things to make them more unique but there are clearly some aspects of them influenced/inspired by real life inuit and native people.

    Inuit != Dakota
    While they share a common ancestry they are THOUSANDS of years removed from each other, they are distinct peoples with distinct cultures beliefs and language . It annoys me to no end, as someone with Cherokee heritage, how a lot of people, including those who profess to be 'woke', can't figure out that the Native Americans (and Canadian Aboriginals) are all different peoples but instead clump them all together.

    As I said tho the natives were descended from inuit people. The way that even happened is when the ice started to melt their tribes were separated and started to move south and their culture changed. that is pretty much exactly what happened to the kodan when the dragons rose in gw2 they used to live in the north but now a lot of them are separated and forced south.

    Almost all the playable and nonplayable races have real world cultures as big influences .

    I'm Egyptian myself and I can tell you for sure they love to play fast and loose with mixing cultures in this game a lot since every county in elona is a mix of different north African nations. The even mix a lot of aspects from the region's ancient history and its more modern era issues. It honestly happened pretty much all the time in every game(but usually outsiders of those cultures are oblivious of it). that was also the way they originally did cantha stuff was mixing all these different asian cultures, but they had to stop doing that because it offended the chinese goverment.

    Trying to twist what I said as saying these things were all the same instead of them just taking inspiration from the full history/origin of the people is a bit cringy to me considering what I actually said. The term I used was vague enough to be inclusive and i think technically correct? Either way I wasn't trying to diminish any culture if that's how it came off to you. Not trying to be I insulting but your comment to me just seems really ignorant, pretentious, and disingenuous.

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    It annoys me to no end, as someone with Cherokee heritage, how a lot of people, including those who profess to be 'woke', can't figure out that the Native Americans (and Canadian Aboriginals) are all different peoples but instead clump them all together.

    Considering that Canada is part of the American continent, it's not technically wrong to say the "Canadian Aboriginals" are native Americans.
    Native Americans should not exclusively be used for the natives of the U.S.A..

    Also, as someone of "East Frisian" heritage, it annoys me to get clumped together with "Bavarians", yet people keep doing that.

    Eh, I was only trying to cover my kitten with that part, incase someone got salty and tried to use that against me. Personally I think 'American Aboriginal' would sound better than 'Native American', and more accurate too.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    Eh, I was only trying to cover my kitten with that part, incase someone got salty and tried to use that against me. Personally I think 'American Aboriginal' would sound better than 'Native American', and more accurate too.

    I don't think native is less accurate than aboriginal though.
    It only serves to differentiate the original people of the continent from the Europeans, Africans and Asians that make up the majority of the continent's population.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Grand Marshal.4098 said:
    I guess Koda follows the similar idea as a gendered deity as Ameyalli of the Jungle and Zintl the Sun. Wouldn't surprise me tbh. Although I do question why leave the whole gender thing for the Elder Dragons so convoluted. Why is Jormag suddenly a they and what not, when Primordus, Zhaitan, Mordremoth and Karkatorrik are pretty much implied to be males? I don't get it. Humans gods have genders, the spirits of the wild clrearly identify as something...Only the Eternal Alchemy and the Dream, 2 concepts are obviously not entities to have a gender.

    I suppose Jormag is special.

    I think it's because Jormag identifies as nonbinary, and is talkative enough they we know they identify as nonbinary. Aurene and Glint identified as female, Kralkatorrik and Vlast as male, Primordus isn't talking so we're just assuming that Jormag knows what they're talking about when calling Primordus "he". Mordremoth and Zhaitan... I think there are references to their minions calling them by masculine pronouns, but I'm not completely sure off the top of my head, and even if they did, they might have got it wrong like the Sons of Svanir did.

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Grand Marshal.4098 said:
    I guess Koda follows the similar idea as a gendered deity as Ameyalli of the Jungle and Zintl the Sun. Wouldn't surprise me tbh. Although I do question why leave the whole gender thing for the Elder Dragons so convoluted. Why is Jormag suddenly a they and what not, when Primordus, Zhaitan, Mordremoth and Karkatorrik are pretty much implied to be males? I don't get it. Humans gods have genders, the spirits of the wild clrearly identify as something...Only the Eternal Alchemy and the Dream, 2 concepts are obviously not entities to have a gender.

    I suppose Jormag is special.

    I think it's because Jormag identifies as nonbinary, and is talkative enough they we know they identify as nonbinary. Aurene and Glint identified as female, Kralkatorrik and Vlast as male, Primordus isn't talking so we're just assuming that Jormag knows what they're talking about when calling Primordus "he". Mordremoth and Zhaitan... I think there are references to their minions calling them by masculine pronouns, but I'm not completely sure off the top of my head, and even if they did, they might have got it wrong like the Sons of Svanir did.

    Not inclined to think the Risen and Mordrem got it wrong like the Sons did, don't forget that the Sons aren't proper dragon minions.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Grand Marshal.4098 said:
    I guess Koda follows the similar idea as a gendered deity as Ameyalli of the Jungle and Zintl the Sun. Wouldn't surprise me tbh. Although I do question why leave the whole gender thing for the Elder Dragons so convoluted. Why is Jormag suddenly a they and what not, when Primordus, Zhaitan, Mordremoth and Karkatorrik are pretty much implied to be males? I don't get it. Humans gods have genders, the spirits of the wild clrearly identify as something...Only the Eternal Alchemy and the Dream, 2 concepts are obviously not entities to have a gender.

    I suppose Jormag is special.

    I think it's because Jormag identifies as nonbinary, and is talkative enough they we know they identify as nonbinary. Aurene and Glint identified as female, Kralkatorrik and Vlast as male, Primordus isn't talking so we're just assuming that Jormag knows what they're talking about when calling Primordus "he". Mordremoth and Zhaitan... I think there are references to their minions calling them by masculine pronouns, but I'm not completely sure off the top of my head, and even if they did, they might have got it wrong like the Sons of Svanir did.

    In general, risen and mordrem just refer to Zhaitan and Mordremoth as "the dragon"/"my master"/"Zhaitan" and "the Jungle Dragon"/"Mordremoth" respectively. The only times I've managed to find anyone calling either by a gender, it's by Tyrians. And the most prominent one to do so (Trahearne) interchanges between "he" and "it" constantly.

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    All these squares make a circle.