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Jormag/Primordus Question Possible Spoilers!

videoboy.4162videoboy.4162 Member ✭✭✭

So, I was playing the most recent story and Jormag keeps mentioning how it is linked to its brother Primordus, how they're twins, how this is a curse for Jormag and how Primordus is mindless. Is it possible that the reason Jormag seems to have two minds/voices and Primordus doesn't have even have one, is because Jormag somehow stole Primordus' mind from him? I don't know if that could be something Jormag intended to do, but it seems strange for one twin to view itself as a multi-person and for the other one to not really be a person at all.

(Also, I'm using person in a very generic sense)

Comments

  • Pax.3548Pax.3548 Member ✭✭✭

    In my opinion, I'm starting to believe they may be more than twins, maybe at one point they were one single being, and something split them, while Jormag kept the cold, calculating personality, Primordious was the prime instinct and emotions, thats why Jormag scorns Primpordius, because he/she's ashamed that he/she used to be one with this "thing" as Jormag called him.

    But then, what could have split a dragon in two different beings to begin with?, perhaps in the end they are just twins that don't get along after so many cycles together, or maybe Jormag detest that Primordius is bent on destroying everything, while he/she think everything should be preserved.

  • Poormany.4507Poormany.4507 Member ✭✭✭

    @Pax.3548 said:
    In my opinion, I'm starting to believe they may be more than twins, maybe at one point they were one single being, and something split them, while Jormag kept the cold, calculating personality, Primordious was the prime instinct and emotions, thats why Jormag scorns Primpordius, because he/she's ashamed that he/she used to be one with this "thing" as Jormag called him.

    But then, what could have split a dragon in two different beings to begin with?, perhaps in the end they are just twins that don't get along after so many cycles together, or maybe Jormag detest that Primordius is bent on destroying everything, while he/she think everything should be preserved.

    If they were once joined, maybe "mother" or some other really strong power could have split them, possibly to prevent them from being too powerful and keep each other in check? Just speculating :)

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    My problem with the "split dragon" theory is what the nature of this theoretical united dragon would have been. Fire AND Ice in one dragon? A Fog dragon? DSD already has regular water covered, what would it have been? Leaves me inclined to think that this theory doesn't have legs.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Pax.3548Pax.3548 Member ✭✭✭

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    My problem with the "split dragon" theory is what the nature of this theoretical united dragon would have been. Fire AND Ice in one dragon? A Fog dragon? DSD already has regular water covered, what would it have been? Leaves me inclined to think that this theory doesn't have legs.

    True, and there is something else about this theory that doesn't sit right with me, but can't say what, I guess next chapter will offer more information

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    My problem with the "split dragon" theory is what the nature of this theoretical united dragon would have been. Fire AND Ice in one dragon? A Fog dragon? DSD already has regular water covered, what would it have been? Leaves me inclined to think that this theory doesn't have legs.

    There's also the whole "six" theme and how The All is balanced in pairs.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    My problem with the "split dragon" theory is what the nature of this theoretical united dragon would have been. Fire AND Ice in one dragon? A Fog dragon? DSD already has regular water covered, what would it have been? Leaves me inclined to think that this theory doesn't have legs.

    There's also the whole "six" theme and how The All is balanced in pairs.

    We still going with that though? I thought Mary-S...I mean Aurene was now the Super-Mega-Elder Dragon and the balance is a superstition.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    My problem with the "split dragon" theory is what the nature of this theoretical united dragon would have been. Fire AND Ice in one dragon? A Fog dragon? DSD already has regular water covered, what would it have been? Leaves me inclined to think that this theory doesn't have legs.

    There's also the whole "six" theme and how The All is balanced in pairs.

    We still going with that though? I thought Mary-S...I mean Aurene was now the Super-Mega-Elder Dragon and the balance is a superstition.

    Everyone thinks this and it's really up in the air depending on how quickly they want to get over the elder dragon plot.

    But the post-War Eternal guild chat key notes for me were:

    Aurene is different, but she's still at risk of falling to torment like the other elder dragons.
    "Mother" may have more significance later.
    They don't have an origin story for the elder dragons.

    Those were the things that stood out to me at least.

    But it seemed pretty heavily implied that, at least at the time, Aurene wouldn't be able to be the one dragon that's able to contain all of the magics and energies or balance the all by herself. But seeing as the only ones who TRULY know the inner-workings of the All are the elder dragons, we only have Asuran speculation like Omaad's machine or whatever to go by. It feels like it's all been left pretty open and what facts we "think" we know, could be changed by a few lines of dialogue later down the line.

    I mean, if we look at the cinematic of the All and Omaad's machine we just see an orb flying into the center. I can't remember if it was confirmed which dragon's orb it was that flew into it. Is it Zhaitan's orb and his death triggered the green screen representing Mordremoth's awakening? Or is it Mordremoth's orb flying into it symbolizing Mordremoth awakening and Zhaitan's orb is still floating around?

    The biggest thing we have working against the Aurene balances the All by herself theory is the Kesho cinematic, as the other catastrophes and bloodstone madness seemed to deal primarily with excess magic, which doesn't seem to be the REAL issue.

    But the Kesho cinematic also mentions TWO elder dragons being eliminated at the same time. And I think it's assumed that it's referring to Mordremoth and Zhaitan, but they were quite a bit of time apart. And Aurene and Vlast were already born, so it was a prophetic vision from Glint, right? The pyramid falling apart in the cinematic looks a lot like the pyramid in Crystal Oasis in the branded area but that could also just be Kralk's branding that screwed it up and not a result of the unraveling of the death of Zhaitan and Mordremoth. The point I'm trying to get to with this is, what if those two elder dragons being eliminated were actually, unknowingly, Primordus and Jormag.

    We assume that Aurene's ascension completed that part of the prophecy and our actions now bring about the very things that happen in the Kesho cinematic. The two dragons dying at once, the DSD teaser image (still not certain it was the DSD), seemingly becoming active.

    As far as Jormag and Primordus being the same being, I think that's unlikely. But I could see all the elder dragons being fragments of something else. It also seems like they all come in pairs of opposing forces.

    The one way I could see the Primordus and Jormag both dying and the world not ending being successful if the reason 4 is the magic number for Tyria not falling apart is not that there's 4 orbs remaining, it's that there's two orbs on each side. If Primordus and Jormag both die, at the same time, the balance can still be maintained by the DSD and Aurene. They just become significantly more powerful, are more susceptible to torment because they're having to filter way more magic out, and there's likely far more magic being released into the world.

    I kind of feel like that's where they're going honestly. It's less about there NEEDING to be 4 orbs right now and more that if Primordus dies, Jormag and Aurene are 2 vs 1 with the DSD on the other side, or Primordus and DSD vs Aurene if Jormag dies.

    I would hope the finale and the lead-up to the expansion will dive more into this. I'm getting pretty tired of the 3 minute Jormag/Aurene dialogs that seem to slightly hint at us gaining a deeper understanding only for them to say virtually nothing. :angry:

    I was really hoping the exalted faction npc would drop some hints, but:
    "Glint's words say little of these days after Kralkatorrik's fall—she could not share all she knew, for fear of affecting the outcome of events. We will keep our faith and believe in Aurene's future."

    Doesn't say much, but does tell us there's much more to Aurene and Glint's prophecy that we don't know yet. It's possible Aurene's reluctance to get involved could be due to something Glint told her when she had the private 1 on 1, and we'll get find out more later.

  • Brycar.2651Brycar.2651 Member ✭✭✭

    @Pax.3548 said:
    In my opinion, I'm starting to believe they may be more than twins, maybe at one point they were one single being, and something split them, while Jormag kept the cold, calculating personality, Primordious was the prime instinct and emotions, thats why Jormag scorns Primpordius, because he/she's ashamed that he/she used to be one with this "thing" as Jormag called him.

    But then, what could have split a dragon in two different beings to begin with?, perhaps in the end they are just twins that don't get along after so many cycles together, or maybe Jormag detest that Primordius is bent on destroying everything, while he/she think everything should be preserved.

    I think at the end aurene will use the opposite of refraction to blend them into one

  • @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    My problem with the "split dragon" theory is what the nature of this theoretical united dragon would have been. Fire AND Ice in one dragon? A Fog dragon? DSD already has regular water covered, what would it have been? Leaves me inclined to think that this theory doesn't have legs.

    I just hope they won't turn them into the water dragon and come out with "The deep sea dragon WAS Primordus and Jormag all the time!"

    Thinking about best case / worst case scenarios for the final... is it possible that the "new character" in the End of Dragons-trailer is a "reunited" dragon? Is the "mother" maybe an entity that split into six elder dragons? And does the upper dragon from the EoD-trailer share any similarities with Primordus and Jormag?

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    My problem with the "split dragon" theory is what the nature of this theoretical united dragon would have been. Fire AND Ice in one dragon? A Fog dragon? DSD already has regular water covered, what would it have been? Leaves me inclined to think that this theory doesn't have legs.

    Well the dragons didn't necessarily need an elemental team before being split, and not even just after being split.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rhywolver.8250 said:

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    My problem with the "split dragon" theory is what the nature of this theoretical united dragon would have been. Fire AND Ice in one dragon? A Fog dragon? DSD already has regular water covered, what would it have been? Leaves me inclined to think that this theory doesn't have legs.

    I just hope they won't turn them into the water dragon and come out with "The deep sea dragon WAS Primordus and Jormag all the time!"

    Thinking about best case / worst case scenarios for the final... is it possible that the "new character" in the End of Dragons-trailer is a "reunited" dragon? Is the "mother" maybe an entity that split into six elder dragons? And does the upper dragon from the EoD-trailer share any similarities with Primordus and Jormag?

    After rewatching the guild chat from War Eternal they talked a bit more about "Mother" and said that if you listen closely you may hear some hints. I replayed the episode last night and the only thing that stood out was the fact that you hear waves after Kralk says Mother and the screen goes white. Then Aurene's ascends.

    I didn't think anything of it because I just assumed it was some background noise because they're on an Island. BUT, given the next cinematic it doesn't really make that much sense. So I don't know. I've always liked the idea that Mother could be the Spirt of Dragon posed by Kassage I believe.

    But I could easily see "Mother" being the sea dragon at this point.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bast.7253 said:

    After rewatching the guild chat from War Eternal they talked a bit more about "Mother" and said that if you listen closely you may hear some hints. I replayed the episode last night and the only thing that stood out was the fact that you hear waves after Kralk says Mother and the screen goes white. Then Aurene's ascends.

    I didn't think anything of it because I just assumed it was some background noise because they're on an Island. BUT, given the next cinematic it doesn't really make that much sense. So I don't know. I've always liked the idea that Mother could be the Spirt of Dragon posed by Kassage I believe.

    The next scene is on a cliff of said island. The waves make sense.

    That said, didn't they also confirm the hints was that Kralkatorrik says the word "Mother..." which they didn't expect people to catch (despite, y'know, the fact it's in the chat box... I guess that wasn't intended by the writers).

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Bast.7253 said:

    After rewatching the guild chat from War Eternal they talked a bit more about "Mother" and said that if you listen closely you may hear some hints. I replayed the episode last night and the only thing that stood out was the fact that you hear waves after Kralk says Mother and the screen goes white. Then Aurene's ascends.

    I didn't think anything of it because I just assumed it was some background noise because they're on an Island. BUT, given the next cinematic it doesn't really make that much sense. So I don't know. I've always liked the idea that Mother could be the Spirt of Dragon posed by Kassage I believe.

    The next scene is on a cliff of said island. The waves make sense.

    That said, didn't they also confirm the hints was that Kralkatorrik says the word "Mother..." which they didn't expect people to catch (despite, y'know, the fact it's in the chat box... I guess that wasn't intended by the writers).

    No, the hints part came after they addressed the "mother" bit and said that if you listen closely/pay attention you may pick up on potential hints as to what mother could mean. At least that's how I interpreted it. It was definitely after they pointed out that mother was said though.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bast.7253 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Bast.7253 said:

    After rewatching the guild chat from War Eternal they talked a bit more about "Mother" and said that if you listen closely you may hear some hints. I replayed the episode last night and the only thing that stood out was the fact that you hear waves after Kralk says Mother and the screen goes white. Then Aurene's ascends.

    I didn't think anything of it because I just assumed it was some background noise because they're on an Island. BUT, given the next cinematic it doesn't really make that much sense. So I don't know. I've always liked the idea that Mother could be the Spirt of Dragon posed by Kassage I believe.

    The next scene is on a cliff of said island. The waves make sense.

    That said, didn't they also confirm the hints was that Kralkatorrik says the word "Mother..." which they didn't expect people to catch (despite, y'know, the fact it's in the chat box... I guess that wasn't intended by the writers).

    No, the hints part came after they addressed the "mother" bit and said that if you listen closely/pay attention you may pick up on potential hints as to what mother could mean. At least that's how I interpreted it. It was definitely after they pointed out that mother was said though.

    But isn't the waves sound happening throughout Aurene's entire ascension, and into the next scene? That's why I never took it as being the hint.

    Plus it'd be weird if the DSD, always said to be on par and equal to the other Elder Dragons, is suddenly the creator of Elder Dragons.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Naxian.9823Naxian.9823 Member ✭✭

    @Pax.3548 said:
    In my opinion, I'm starting to believe they may be more than twins, maybe at one point they were one single being, and something split them, while Jormag kept the cold, calculating personality, Primordious was the prime instinct and emotions, [...]

    I really like this idea. IMO it would be awesome that by the end of icebrood saga they become one and that cleanses them from their corruption. This new good elder dragon could be an ally for Aurene and us. Also she/he/it could be the being that speaks with Kuunavang in the teaser trailer of End of Dragons.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Naxian.9823 said:

    @Pax.3548 said:
    In my opinion, I'm starting to believe they may be more than twins, maybe at one point they were one single being, and something split them, while Jormag kept the cold, calculating personality, Primordious was the prime instinct and emotions, [...]

    I really like this idea. IMO it would be awesome that by the end of icebrood saga they become one and that cleanses them from their corruption. This new good elder dragon could be an ally for Aurene and us. Also she/he/it could be the being that speaks with Kuunavang in the teaser trailer of End of Dragons.

    Mmm.. i've toyed with a theory before about Kuunavang and Albax replacing the Water dragon together in End of Dragons and becoming a new Elder Dragon entity that is made of 2 individual Dragons..
    I don't mean they would fuse together into one Elder Dragon either, not physically.
    They would be two fully autonomous Dragons with their own personalities and free will but they would also be a singular Elder Dragon entity together.. 2 Dragons as 1 Elder Dragon.
    I still really like that concept and think it would be pretty awesome to see in Gw2.

    Jormag and Primordus being a split being isn't entirely unbelievable to me.. and there are other theories out there that all the Elder Dragons are possibly related, something people still use to support that theory is the way Jormag keeps referring to Aurine as a sibling or relative.
    I'm sure that's more just Jormag's way of trying to seduce her and I still stand by that, but if by chance there is more to that and all of them are indeed related then it does open the door for the idea that maybe all of the Elder Dragons were once a single being and something happened a long time ago that split them into 6 separate Elder Dragons.. all of which inheriting different traits and powers from the original.

    Perhaps the power of this mega being was just too great that it risked destroying everything and so it was a sacrifice this Original Dragon made to save the world but the unforeseen consequences of this were that the 6 new individual dragons were not strong enough to handle their power and overtime they all became corrupted by it seeking more magic.. more power in a desperate thirst to reclaim the unified power they once had.

    Or maybe when this original Dragon existed there was literally nothing but this single entity.. "Mother" a god like being alone and aware in an endless void who then sacrificed itself to create the All.. to create a form of balance amidst the cold and darkness so that one day life could flourish across it.
    Perhaps the Elder Dragons we know now were once just entities of pure magical power that evolved and became sentient.. then became corrupted by that power.
    Or maybe they were just powerful highly intelligent life forms who first unravelled the mysteries of the All and discovered this pure magical power and claimed it for themselves corrupting the power in the process and driving themselves mad with power and hunger for more.

    Who knows.. but stuff like this is a lot of fun to speculate and theorise about isn't it :)

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Bast.7253 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Bast.7253 said:

    After rewatching the guild chat from War Eternal they talked a bit more about "Mother" and said that if you listen closely you may hear some hints. I replayed the episode last night and the only thing that stood out was the fact that you hear waves after Kralk says Mother and the screen goes white. Then Aurene's ascends.

    I didn't think anything of it because I just assumed it was some background noise because they're on an Island. BUT, given the next cinematic it doesn't really make that much sense. So I don't know. I've always liked the idea that Mother could be the Spirt of Dragon posed by Kassage I believe.

    The next scene is on a cliff of said island. The waves make sense.

    That said, didn't they also confirm the hints was that Kralkatorrik says the word "Mother..." which they didn't expect people to catch (despite, y'know, the fact it's in the chat box... I guess that wasn't intended by the writers).

    No, the hints part came after they addressed the "mother" bit and said that if you listen closely/pay attention you may pick up on potential hints as to what mother could mean. At least that's how I interpreted it. It was definitely after they pointed out that mother was said though.

    But isn't the waves sound happening throughout Aurene's entire ascension, and into the next scene? That's why I never took it as being the hint.

    Plus it'd be weird if the DSD, always said to be on par and equal to the other Elder Dragons, is suddenly the creator of Elder Dragons.

    Yeah, I never read much into the waves either honestly. I mean, it stops before Aurene's ascension with a background of Tarir and other music. Then you have the scene of them on the cliff. Then the airship. Neither the cliff or the airship you can hear the waves on either.

    But still, you're right next to the ocean. It does seem a little out of place playing the waves so loudly before that two cinematics though. I just never really read into it.

    And yeah, I've never really bought into the Mother being the DSD thing either, but in terms of hints there really isn't much else happening that someone would pick up on from what I gathered from the replay. With each dragon seemingly having a counterpart like Zhaitan vs Mordremoth, Jormag vs Primordus, it would seem like DSD would be the counterpart to Kralk and they would all be on the same level.

    But it is strange that we've only ever seen the Crystal dragon line have scions, right? Who knows.

    The only other potential hint would be the mention of Aurene now containing a part of Kralk, if we wanted go with the Aurene is actually the mother and it somehow becomes like this fractal time loop where she eventually gives birth to the elder dragons in the past or something. But that's a bit far fetched and bananas. lol

    With the "End of Dragons" and "Cycle Reborn" it seems like they may really be gearing towards finishing out the dragon arc in the next expansion. So hinting at "Mother" seems like it would have to be paid off in Cantha somehow. Plus all the mention of "brother," "grandniece," "little sister," and the general theme of diving more into the familial relationships of elder dragons during the saga and over the course of season 4. I guess we'll find out soon enough, unless it becomes another plot they decide to shelve for a rainy day that never comes.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Naxian.9823 said:

    @Pax.3548 said:
    In my opinion, I'm starting to believe they may be more than twins, maybe at one point they were one single being, and something split them, while Jormag kept the cold, calculating personality, Primordious was the prime instinct and emotions, [...]

    I really like this idea. IMO it would be awesome that by the end of icebrood saga they become one and that cleanses them from their corruption. This new good elder dragon could be an ally for Aurene and us. Also she/he/it could be the being that speaks with Kuunavang in the teaser trailer of End of Dragons.

    Mmm.. i've toyed with a theory before about Kuunavang and Albax replacing the Water dragon together in End of Dragons and becoming a new Elder Dragon entity that is made of 2 individual Dragons..
    I don't mean they would fuse together into one Elder Dragon either, not physically.
    They would be two fully autonomous Dragons with their own personalities and free will but they would also be a singular Elder Dragon entity together.. 2 Dragons as 1 Elder Dragon.
    I still really like that concept and think it would be pretty awesome to see in Gw2.

    Jormag and Primordus being a split being isn't entirely unbelievable to me.. and there are other theories out there that all the Elder Dragons are possibly related, something people still use to support that theory is the way Jormag keeps referring to Aurine as a sibling or relative.
    I'm sure that's more just Jormag's way of trying to seduce her and I still stand by that, but if by chance there is more to that and all of them are indeed related then it does open the door for the idea that maybe all of the Elder Dragons were once a single being and something happened a long time ago that split them into 6 separate Elder Dragons.. all of which inheriting different traits and powers from the original.

    Perhaps the power of this mega being was just too great that it risked destroying everything and so it was a sacrifice this Original Dragon made to save the world but the unforeseen consequences of this were that the 6 new individual dragons were not strong enough to handle their power and overtime they all became corrupted by it seeking more magic.. more power in a desperate thirst to reclaim the unified power they once had.

    Or maybe when this original Dragon existed there was literally nothing but this single entity.. "Mother" a god like being alone and aware in an endless void who then sacrificed itself to create the All.. to create a form of balance amidst the cold and darkness so that one day life could flourish across it.
    Perhaps the Elder Dragons we know now were once just entities of pure magical power that evolved and became sentient.. then became corrupted by that power.
    Or maybe they were just powerful highly intelligent life forms who first unravelled the mysteries of the All and discovered this pure magical power and claimed it for themselves corrupting the power in the process and driving themselves mad with power and hunger for more.

    Who knows.. but stuff like this is a lot of fun to speculate and theorise about isn't it :)

    I'd believe that all the elder dragons are split aspects of one being before I believe that Primordus and Jormag are entity being split, personally. I do wish we would get more elaboration on why each of the elder dragons has the domain that they do, like "Persusasion," "Conflagaration," "Fury," etc. I can understand the elemental aspects like fire, plant, death, ice, water, crystal - but the other domains just seem really random.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Naxian.9823 said:

    @Pax.3548 said:
    In my opinion, I'm starting to believe they may be more than twins, maybe at one point they were one single being, and something split them, while Jormag kept the cold, calculating personality, Primordious was the prime instinct and emotions, [...]

    I really like this idea. IMO it would be awesome that by the end of icebrood saga they become one and that cleanses them from their corruption. This new good elder dragon could be an ally for Aurene and us. Also she/he/it could be the being that speaks with Kuunavang in the teaser trailer of End of Dragons.

    I wouldn't think that would classify as being a "new" character though? I mean, it would be a new being, but we would have interacted with both individually at that point so does it really count?

    I'd lean more towards it being the DSD, or maybe something from the mists.

  • videoboy.4162videoboy.4162 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 20, 2021

    Originally, I also thought the DSD would be revealed as the mother dragon. However, after thinking more about it, I'm thinking the DSD isn't the mother, but still WITH the mother in the Unending Ocean. There's plenty of room to hide something down there, especially if it's asleep or somewhat inactive. It could be that the Mother is actually The All and birthed the Dragons to balance out Tyria's magic. She could be Tyria's analogue to Gaia in what she represents and her role in creating other high level beings (in this case, Dragons). In these Mythologies, there's usually at least one "kid" that's loyal to the parent god, so that may be why the DSD seems to stay out of the chaos the others engage in.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bast.7253 said:
    But it is strange that we've only ever seen the Crystal dragon line have scions, right? Who knows.

    The Complete Art of Guild Wars 2 does call the Pale Tree a sapling of Mordremoth, implying actual lineage there. And the way Jormag treats Drakkar always made me feel like Jormag was Drakkar's abusive parent. Depending on how Jormag's full body will turn out, that could be possible.

    With the "End of Dragons" and "Cycle Reborn" it seems like they may really be gearing towards finishing out the dragon arc in the next expansion. So hinting at "Mother" seems like it would have to be paid off in Cantha somehow. Plus all the mention of "brother," "grandniece," "little sister," and the general theme of diving more into the familial relationships of elder dragons during the saga and over the course of season 4. I guess we'll find out soon enough, unless it becomes another plot they decide to shelve for a rainy day that never comes.

    I still feel like Jormag's usage of familial terms is just their typical manipulation towards Aurene. Jormag knows that Aurene's biological family had a tragic fate, and would thus could be desiring a surrogate family for comfort. Similarly, by playing Primordus as the mindless animal tormenting them, Jormag is drawing a direct parallel to Kralkatorrik's own actions and how Kralk killed his daughter (Glint) and tried to kill Aurene.

    And I feel that Jormag going from "little sister" to "grandniece" as they become disappointed and upset with Aurene furthers this sentiment, that the use of family terms is just Jormag's typical manipulation at work and not at all literal. Or at least not as literal as people make it out to be.

    @videoboy.4162 said:
    Originally, I also thought the DSD would be revealed as the mother dragon. However, after thinking more about it, I'm thinking the DSD isn't the mother, but still WITH the mother in the Unending Ocean. There's plenty of room to hide something down there, especially if it's asleep or somewhat inactive. It could be that the Mother is actually The All and birthed the Dragons to balance out Tyria's magic. She could be Tyria's analogue to Gaia in what she represents and her role in creating other high level beings (in this case, Dragons). In these Mythologies, there's usually at least one "kid" that's loyal to the parent god, so that may be why the DSD seems to stay out of the chaos the others engage in.

    An analog to Gaia for Tyria is actually my second theory. My first being the original Dragon Spirit, if norn and kodan belief is correct, which led to the creation of the lesser dragon species like drakes, hydras, and wyverns, as well as the six Elder Dragon lineages (under this notion, then the original Elder Dragons would be siblings - whether it's the current six at the start of GW2 or not is another matter).

    But being a "Gaia figure" is equally likely. In The All, there are seven spheres - the seventh being Tyria - but more than that the Pale Tree hints that Tyria itself is alive and lamenting the actions of the Elder Dragons during the personal story in lines such as:

    Avatar of the Tree: The soul of Tyria mourned as her children were cut down by the beast. The land wept, and the world shuddered.

    The notion of Tyria being "alive" and also "Mother" would paint her as a bit of a tragic character who created the Elder Dragons to balance and maintain the world but was incapable of stopping them from going insane and murderous over the eons.

    Would also end up explaining what the Dream and Nightmare ultimately are, as the PS and HoT do establish that the Dream is fully separate from Mordremoth and the mordrem (despite some early belief that it was the hive mind of the jungle dragon). The Dream could be literally Mother's Dream in a similar manner to The Blind Idiot God Asathoth from Lovecraftian mythos - but in a more benevolent and less "oh kitten never wake it up" manner. That Tyria/Mother is asleep and dreaming of an entire existence (the memories and copies of the inhabitants of the world) that is the Dream of Dreams.

    Though they really could go a full out Asathoth design for Tyria/Mother, where if Tyria/Mother wakes up from her Dream, the world will simply cease to be, resulting in everyone's death, and that is the Nightmare's ultimate goal. Would be an interesting post-Elder Dragon plot, and could even fit into a "for all the evil they did, the Elder Dragons didn't want to die, so they held back the Nightmare while they ravaged the world, and this formed their Torment that led them to insanity".

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.