elite specializations: sidegrade or upgrade

hey folks,

i have been reading sentences like "elites were supposed to be sidegrades, not upgrades" almost everywhere on the forums and on reddit. it seems everybody believes it, but nobody can/did prove it with a quote to an interview/statement of arenanet. in fact me, myself and i actually believe such a statement existed back when HoT was close to release.i was wondering if somebody can recall such a statement.

but maybe it is just a rumour going on, because someone started it at some point. much like the rumour to the change of deathly chill from condition based to power based dmg, to push reaper into a power role and the new necor elite scourge into the condition role with the start of PoF (i think it started somewhere with/in a video with wooden potatoe and proved wrong until today).

i'd be glad to get a statement of any dev ofc, but everybodys answer is just fine as long as it provides a source - since i am not able to find (a good) one.there has been a statement of colin back in the days, but it is so vague, that i can hardly note it as a proof - and its pvp-related only (i mentioned it in another post in the professions-part of the engineer profession): https://np.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3opycg/arenanet_unveil_the_future_of_competitive_guild/cvzfp12/

cheers

It's situational depending on the class/spec(s). For instance daredevil is nearly an direct upgrade for thief in any possible way. As where scrapper for the engi is pretty much an sidegrade. and used only in certain moments.

Players WANT them to be a side grade. However Anet THINKS we need upgrades. They ruined PvP this way by making it a pay to win(only in PvP because people do not read). Its awful they did this but we are not the final decision.

In order to support the game, 30$ every 2 years seems ok to me.The fact that the SPvP is open to everybody does not change a thing.

The real problem here is that even so there's no balance between the 9 classes, Elites or not.

On one hand, players want the possibility to chose how to build their class.On the other hand, players complain that there's no balance at all.

I would be fine if there won't be any customization but just 9 classes to play with.Then the balance would be for real.

Excelsior.

We all know this question is not easy to answer because it relies on objective observation (e.g. plain numbers) and subjective emotions.For example, Deadeye is more of a "sidegrade" because you shuffle the playstyle, but you also sacrifice a lot (in this case mobility). Numbers are mediocre/normal, because you require more setup. Many people love to dash around and see numbers popping up like in a math professor's wet dream, but I like to focus down one or two guys with heavy blasts.

However, I love Deadeye, I enjoy it much more and it makes it possible for me to play the game better than before. It fully support my solo-player attitude, I can pump bullets into foes from afar and they can't even reach me. I remember in HoT I was unable to get on a small ledge because two veterans would stomp me 1vs1 as Daredevil (not very gifted in that matter), so I tried to avoid them and it did not work, they pulled me off that ledge. As Deadeye, I climb into the trees and snipe them down. Suddenly, new ways for me and my playstyle have been opened, a clear upgrade in my very own case.

ArenaNet will surely not tell that they secretly want to lure people into new expansion. Also, in my opinion, I think upgrades are necessary a bit, our character is supposed to develop. Not just "Oh, I throw my dagger now like this and the particles are now purple and not red".

I remember someone (maybe it was WP) saying elites in general were supposed to be an upgrade but ideally HOT elites and POF elites were hopefully roughly on the same level.

None of the POF elites has excited me. A couple I was interested in before I saw them in action. For example, holosmith. Only to then find out its primary mechanic could deal damage to yourself if you gasp used it too much.

Cant prove it because search on the old forums...

But we were originally told that the elitr specs were supposed to be horizontal progression, providing different ways, not better, to play your character. When HoT first came out and the new specs were overtuned ai defended ANet with the point that getting the horizontal balance right would take some time. I am fairly certain, now, that they have changed their minds on the matter.

@Ashen.2907 said:Cant prove it because search on the old forums...

But we were originally told that the elitr specs were supposed to be horizontal progression, providing different ways, not better, to play your character. When HoT first came out and the new specs were overtuned ai defended ANet with the point that getting the horizontal balance right would take some time. I am fairly certain, now, that they have changed their minds on the matter.

thats my problem. nobody can adress it to anet. no source - nothing :(

but it seems obvious that its not a horizontal approach for most scenarios and professions

Depend on classes and situationAn upgrade is consider to be an extension of original class that's straight out better than the original in every way.

Berserker -> upgrade in PVESpellbreaker -> upgrade in PVP.

Druid -> Upgrade in Raid/ PVPSoulbeast -> Side-grade in ???

Daredevil -> Straight upgrade in all game modeDeadeye -> Upgrade in PVP

Tempest -> Upgrade in all game modeWeaver -> Upgrade in Raid

Reaper -> Upgrade in all game modeScourge -> Upgrade in all game mode

Chrono -> Upgrade in all game modeMirage -> Upgrade in all game mode

Scrapper -> Upgrade in all game modeHolosmith -> Upgrade in all game mode

Herald -> Upgrade in all game modeRenegade -> Upgrade in PVE

Dragon-Hunter -> Upgrade in all game modeFirebrand -> Upgrade in all game mode.

So most of them are straight upgrade true, with exception of Soulbeast, which MIGHT be an upgrade in WvW alone.

The first ANet reveal (to my knowledge) of Elite Specs was during the HoT announcement at Pax in January, 2015. Here it is, if anyone cares.

The part about Elite Specs starts at about 36:30, and runs about 3 and a half minutes. The two highlights for me were, "Almost a secondary profession, if you would... and "...fundamentally change the way (the profession) plays..." There was no specific statement about Elite Specs as horizontal progression, or sidegrades.

Fwiw, the reveal of Elite Specs followed the one about the Mastery System which was referred to as horizontal progression, and also as new ways to play. Before that, the announcement also featured the announcement of "no new level cap." and "no new tier of gear" with the rationale being "not invalidate all your hard work." So, the expectations going into the Elite Spec reveal was a heavy emphasis on: both new ways to play that would be better in some situations (Masteries, for example, in hindsight, that allow us to fight in Maguuma poison fields, or detect stealthed Maguum mobs)l; and on L80 core characters still being the end of vertical progression.

At least in this reveal, and in the official blogs that followed, ANet does not seem to explicitly state the Elites would be "sidegrades."

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:The first ANet reveal (to my knowledge) of Elite Specs was during the HoT announcement at Pax in January, 2015. Here it is, if anyone cares.

The part about Elite Specs starts at about 36:30, and runs about 3 and a half minutes. The two highlights for me were, "Almost a secondary profession, if you would... and "...fundamentally change the way (the profession) plays..." There was no specific statement about Elite Specs as horizontal progression, or sidegrades.

Fwiw, the reveal of Elite Specs followed the one about the Mastery System which was referred to as horizontal progression, and also as new ways to play. Before that, the announcement also featured the announcement of "no new level cap." and "no new tier of gear" with the rationale being "not invalidate all your hard work." So, the expectations going into the Elite Spec reveal was a heavy emphasis on: both new ways to play that would be better in some situations (Masteries, for example, in hindsight, that allow us to fight in Maguuma poison fields, or detect stealthed Maguum mobs)l; and on L80 core characters still being the end of vertical progression.

At least in this reveal, and in the official blogs that followed, ANet does not seem to explicitly state the Elites would be "sidegrades."

Except almost every single classes are inferior without the Elite Specialization, with exception of maybe Ranger.

i guess that means: myth busted. until somebody else proves wrong

thanks for the effort

You could play as a power berserker and become a downgrade to every other class and core power warrior.

@Aomine.5012 said:

Except almost every single classes are inferior without the Elite Specialization, with exception of maybe Ranger.

Yes, and the video I linked suggests that ANet never said explicitly that would not be the case. So, why the "Except?"

As far as i know the elite specs are upgrades from the core classes in almost every case, but sidegrades to other elite specs.

@GWMO.4785 said:It's situational depending on the class/spec(s). For instance daredevil is nearly an direct upgrade for thief in any possible way. As where scrapper for the engi is pretty much an sidegrade. and used only in certain moments.

Daredevil was a needed upgrade because core thief is complete shit, thanks to all the wonderful scrubs screaming nerf and anet caving to their demands. However, Arenanet has gotten much better at listening.

@Wolf.3490 said:You could play as a power berserker and become a downgrade to every other class and core power warrior.

"my class is the worst, why get i nerfed only and with every patch" is for the professions forums. i did ask for material in which arenanet did OR did not say that elite specs are an upgrade/sidegrade. and we got a winner already :)

so thanks for the video and effort in looking on the forums/blogs. (but please no more "... my class" )

have a good time

I believe that Elite specs SHOULD be direct upgrades to core specs, because they require that you max out the core spec first, and that you buy into the game, so they should be better than the F2P versions. I do not, however, believe that any Elite spec should be "better" in any more than any other elite spec, they should all be on a level playing field with each other.

Was searching the backup of the old forum (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu) a bit. I am 100% sure there was an official statement made mentioning that the elite specializations would only be an alternative way, a sidegrade, of playing your class, but could only find something from Colin on reddit so far:https://np.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3opycg/arenanet_unveil_the_future_of_competitive_guild/cvzfp12/

I'm pretty sure the idea is that all elite specs are an upgrade to core class but are supposed to be equals to each other. But with HoT launch we were in a very particular case as it was only "elite spec or not" since it was the first batch released.

In any case even if we were promised of them not being straight upgrades it wouldn't be the first time Anet promise something and change it without ever consulting the community. I mean the game as its core is very different from GW1 for no real reason whatsoever (I speak mostly for character customization, double class, pvp modes).

At the same time with how the game is made it would be unrealistic to expect the devs to make elite specs on par with core game, they have to have selling points. And yeah mounts and gliders are cute but you can't sell an expansion only out of that either. My biggest issue with the system is that elite specs offer very few real customization option, as stated from the first dev presentations it's basically just a sub-class choice that alter very few things (in some cases it affects a bit more, like the Mirage has an overall impact on gameplay compared to a Chrono for instance). I really would have preferred to have a bunch of new skills to choose from with each expansion and that's it, having at last choices for weapon skills instead of being stuck with the same for 5 years, and having more and varied utilities. (As a Mesmer I am really sick of those underwhelming utilities)

Idc what they were supposed to be i care what they are and what they should be in todays standarts. That is an upgrade over base specs and a sidegrade over other elites.

note how hesitant the audience is with regards to elitesthe concept is flawed from the beginning, no wonder it failed so hard

I also recall that elite specs weren't meant to be upgrades. What I remember them saying is that they are called elite specs because they bring more changes to class than core specs. New weapon, skills, mechanics, and even a new name.

Searching for a statement, this was the only thing I found:http://www.mmo-central.com/2015/09/28/overview-elite-specializations-guild-wars-2/

Second paragraph. However, this isn't a quote from the devs. The question is where the article writer got this idea. My memory is that a Dev said it but I don't remember where.

That said, intentions here don't matter when the reality is different. Elite specs are better than core specs and which of the two elite specs of a class is better depends on the game mode. They've had two years to make core builds just as good and it hasn't happened.

@Zedek.8932 said:Excelsior.

We all know this question is not easy to answer because it relies on objective observation (e.g. plain numbers) and subjective emotions.For example, Deadeye is more of a "sidegrade" because you shuffle the playstyle, but you also sacrifice a lot (in this case mobility). Numbers are mediocre/normal, because you require more setup. Many people love to dash around and see numbers popping up like in a math professor's wet dream, but I like to focus down one or two guys with heavy blasts.

However, I love Deadeye, I enjoy it much more and it makes it possible for me to play the game better than before. It fully support my solo-player attitude, I can pump bullets into foes from afar and they can't even reach me. I remember in HoT I was unable to get on a small ledge because two veterans would stomp me 1vs1 as Daredevil (not very gifted in that matter), so I tried to avoid them and it did not work, they pulled me off that ledge. As Deadeye, I climb into the trees and snipe them down. Suddenly, new ways for me and my playstyle have been opened, a clear upgrade in my very own case.

ArenaNet will surely not tell that they secretly want to lure people into new expansion. Also, in my opinion, I think upgrades are necessary a bit, our character is supposed to develop. Not just "Oh, I throw my dagger now like this and the particles are now purple and not red".

Also it depends what you mean by "sacrifices mobility." When you look at the elite specialization as a whole from core thief, it loses a single shadowstep on steal, but on rifle you gain a mobility skill on rifle 4 (just because it is not a dodge does not mean it's not mobility) and an extra shadow-step on Shadow Flare. If you are one of the players that assumes it's not a Deadeye without rifle, then yes to gain delayed-burst long range damage you have to immobilize yourself... I play Deadeye primarily with Dagger/Pistol and a perma quickness build (I am primarily a solo pve player, and the ability to apply permanent quickness to yourself without relying on anyone else is objectively an upgrade to core thief... it can not be understated how much of a damage boost this is in solo pve, even over staff DD) and feel I have sacrificed nothing over core thief. I use dual pistol on swap sometimes and rifle on swap others, but D/P is always my main weapon set. I don't feel any different from core thief except that I do my damage 33% faster.

If you're talking about Deadeye sacrificing mobility over Daredevil? That's a stupid argument... DD isn't core thief any more than DE is, and it is good that they play completely differently. I flatly do better damage on Deadeye in the playstyle that I choose (solo pve roaming) than I do on Daredevil, staff or otherwise. I like both elite specs for different reasons, but I definitely find myself using Deadeye more frequently.

@Arcadio.6875 said:

That said, intentions here don't matter when the reality is different. Elite specs are better than core specs and which of the two elite specs of a class is better depends on the game node. They've had two years to make core builds just as good and it hasn't happened.

or "closer to"yes indeed