Spellbreaker/Core Warrior Balance Suggestions

I main War, but there are 2 traits I have always despised. They are hyper passive and can make fighting us a chore. These traits where not such a huge deal until Spellbreaker came along with an ability that made up for the weakness of the core class. I don't want a flat nerf on core Warrior,but i do want more active play.

Last Stand: This trait makes the actual skill Balanced Stance basically worthless. I see two ways of balancing this. Either you pinky get one pulse of Balance Stance on a lower ICD, or you remove that effect entirely and make it reduce stance CD and maybe give stances a stack of Stability for a few seconds when using one.

Defy Pain: I hate this trait do much, I hate other traits like it as well. I would make this give you a stacking bonus to vitality and toughness on landing bursts. Have it stack to 3 just like Adrenal Health. This will keep the Warriors theme of them getting stronger as the fight goes on while not making them able to survive a burst that would kill other classes.

Full Counter: Here's where there are just some plain old nerfs. Start at a 10 second CD (8ish with Discipline). Remove the evade on the actual attack. No stacks of Adrenal Health or Resistance unless the counter actually hit someone. I tested and right now so long as it triggers you get it, which makes it much easier to sustain yourself.

I've posted these suggestions in other threads but i think this deserves its own here because these changes are PvP only.

I got to say, Last Stand is EXCEEDINGLY obnoxious. Not only does it break stun, it puts on a healthy dose of stability and other buffs so that you can't even do anything about it for a while. When I'm running any class with CC, I fire my CC immediately at every war to put that shit on cooldown, because it's way more powerful than most other passive stunbreakers out there.

And I approve of the rest of your thread.

One minor change I would like to see for last stand is to have the cc which triggers the trait still interrupt whatever the warrior's current action is and then have the balance stance stun-break the cc and apply stability. This would put it a bit more inline with other auto stun-break like if you try to interrupt a tempest with the trait gale song equipped, they will be interrupted, and just immediately stun-broken out of the cc. Currently for warrior the order seems to be set up so that the balanced stance is activated before the cc hits so that the stability negates the potential interrupt and the warrior can continue doing what there were doing completely unaffected.

I like your suggestions. I'll also add that defy pain trait can be modified to no longer proc endure pain but rather give barrier on landing a burst skills. Maybe add protection in there too.

That has more counterplay since barrier lasts a very brief amount of time and is contingent on you actually landing a burst.

side note: is barrier gain reduced by poison? that would be good counterplay too if it does.

yaaaaaaaaay nerf everything so war is easy to cc easy to condi pressure easy to kill like pple get used to it

@BurrTheKing.8571 said:I main War, but there are 2 traits I have always despised. They are hyper passive and can make fighting us a chore. These traits where not such a huge deal until Spellbreaker came along with an ability that made up for the weakness of the core class. I don't want a flat nerf on core Warrior,but i do want more active play.

Last Stand: This trait makes the actual skill Balanced Stance basically worthless. I see two ways of balancing this. Either you pinky get one pulse of Balance Stance on a lower ICD, or you remove that effect entirely and make it reduce stance CD and maybe give stances a stack of Stability for a few seconds when using one.

Defy Pain: I hate this trait do much, I hate other traits like it as well. I would make this give you a stacking bonus to vitality and toughness on landing bursts. Have it stack to 3 just like Adrenal Health. This will keep the Warriors theme of them getting stronger as the fight goes on while not making them able to survive a burst that would kill other classes.

Full Counter: Here's where there are just some plain old nerfs. Start at a 10 second CD (8ish with Discipline). Remove the evade on the actual attack. No stacks of Adrenal Health or Resistance unless the counter actually hit someone. I tested and right now so long as it triggers you get it, which makes it much easier to sustain yourself.

I've posted these suggestions in other threads but i think this deserves its own here because these changes are PvP only.

Why not change FC to 30 seconds like Rangers?, why should you get super good skill on low cd and we get super shit skill on a long cd?

Last Stand absolutely needs changed. All traits which automatically break you out of a CC in response to a CC should be changed. Traits like that ruin the game.

I honestly don't mind defy pain. In vanilla, it would usually just be prolonging an inevitable death.

Full Counter is fine by itself. The problem is that it's stacked on top of the defense line and a bunch of stances and other abilities.. I'd say to nerf the passiveness of the defense line first before nerfing Full Counter too hard.

Another thing to look at is Berserker Stance / Resistance. It makes the warrior totally immune to soft CC for quite some time and when you stack it with Full Counter's resistance, it's extremely annoying to fight.

@Amityel.5324 said:yaaaaaaaaay nerf everything so war is easy to cc easy to condi pressure easy to kill like pple get used to it

I don't understand comments like this. We're trying to address problems that other classes experience when fighting against warrior. The problems with spellbreaker's power are multifold, and these are some core traits that really aggravate the issue.

@Sol.4310 said:

@BurrTheKing.8571 said:I main War, but there are 2 traits I have always despised. They are hyper passive and can make fighting us a chore. These traits where not such a huge deal until Spellbreaker came along with an ability that made up for the weakness of the core class. I don't want a flat nerf on core Warrior,but i do want more active play.

Last Stand: This trait makes the actual skill Balanced Stance basically worthless. I see two ways of balancing this. Either you pinky get one pulse of Balance Stance on a lower ICD, or you remove that effect entirely and make it reduce stance CD and maybe give stances a stack of Stability for a few seconds when using one.

Defy Pain: I hate this trait do much, I hate other traits like it as well. I would make this give you a stacking bonus to vitality and toughness on landing bursts. Have it stack to 3 just like Adrenal Health. This will keep the Warriors theme of them getting stronger as the fight goes on while not making them able to survive a burst that would kill other classes.

Full Counter: Here's where there are just some plain old nerfs. Start at a 10 second CD (8ish with Discipline). Remove the evade on the actual attack. No stacks of Adrenal Health or Resistance unless the counter actually hit someone. I tested and right now so long as it triggers you get it, which makes it much easier to sustain yourself.

I've posted these suggestions in other threads but i think this deserves its own here because these changes are PvP only.

I would argue that since it is the E-specs' main mechanic, it shouldn't be as long a CD. However, everything else that makes it so potent need to be tuned down. Heck, if it weren't for some of these passive traits, FC's current cooldown would be just dandy... and it might even be "strategic" to time properly instead of spam it.

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Amityel.5324 said:yaaaaaaaaay nerf everything so war is easy to cc easy to condi pressure easy to kill like pple get used to it

@Sol.4310 said:

@BurrTheKing.8571 said:I main War, but there are 2 traits I have always despised. They are hyper passive and can make fighting us a chore. These traits where not such a huge deal until Spellbreaker came along with an ability that made up for the weakness of the core class. I don't want a flat nerf on core Warrior,but i do want more active play.

Last Stand: This trait makes the actual skill Balanced Stance basically worthless. I see two ways of balancing this. Either you pinky get one pulse of Balance Stance on a lower ICD, or you remove that effect entirely and make it reduce stance CD and maybe give stances a stack of Stability for a few seconds when using one.

Defy Pain: I hate this trait do much, I hate other traits like it as well. I would make this give you a stacking bonus to vitality and toughness on landing bursts. Have it stack to 3 just like Adrenal Health. This will keep the Warriors theme of them getting stronger as the fight goes on while not making them able to survive a burst that would kill other classes.

Full Counter: Here's where there are just some plain old nerfs. Start at a 10 second CD (8ish with Discipline). Remove the evade on the actual attack. No stacks of Adrenal Health or Resistance unless the counter actually hit someone. I tested and right now so long as it triggers you get it, which makes it much easier to sustain yourself.

I've posted these suggestions in other threads but i think this deserves its own here because these changes are PvP only.

No, it shouldn't be such low cd. Just look at our Soulbeast F3 which is meant to be a big skill its 25 second cd and only does damage at 240 range... FC should be in same boat, not spamming skill.

@Sol.4310 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Amityel.5324 said:yaaaaaaaaay nerf everything so war is easy to cc easy to condi pressure easy to kill like pple get used to it

@Sol.4310 said:

@BurrTheKing.8571 said:I main War, but there are 2 traits I have always despised. They are hyper passive and can make fighting us a chore. These traits where not such a huge deal until Spellbreaker came along with an ability that made up for the weakness of the core class. I don't want a flat nerf on core Warrior,but i do want more active play.

Last Stand: This trait makes the actual skill Balanced Stance basically worthless. I see two ways of balancing this. Either you pinky get one pulse of Balance Stance on a lower ICD, or you remove that effect entirely and make it reduce stance CD and maybe give stances a stack of Stability for a few seconds when using one.

Defy Pain: I hate this trait do much, I hate other traits like it as well. I would make this give you a stacking bonus to vitality and toughness on landing bursts. Have it stack to 3 just like Adrenal Health. This will keep the Warriors theme of them getting stronger as the fight goes on while not making them able to survive a burst that would kill other classes.

Full Counter: Here's where there are just some plain old nerfs. Start at a 10 second CD (8ish with Discipline). Remove the evade on the actual attack. No stacks of Adrenal Health or Resistance unless the counter actually hit someone. I tested and right now so long as it triggers you get it, which makes it much easier to sustain yourself.

I've posted these suggestions in other threads but i think this deserves its own here because these changes are PvP only.

Well actually its 35. Don't forget to add the Beastmode is already on a 10 second CD to begin with.

Resistance is too strong of a boon for Warrior to have so much (easy) access to it.

Berserker Stance -> should be changed to grant a few seconds of Resistance on incoming conditions with a CD attached, to give non-boon corruption builds counterplayFeatherfoot Grace -> changed to remove cripple/immob/chill, and grants 1s of Resistance per condition removedRevenge Counter -> granted Resistance is contingent upon successfully copying at least one condition.

@Exedore.6320 said:Last Stand absolutely needs changed. All traits which automatically break you out of a CC in response to a CC should be changed. Traits like that ruin the game.

I honestly don't mind defy pain. In vanilla, it would usually just be prolonging an inevitable death.

Full Counter is fine by itself. The problem is that it's stacked on top of the defense line and a bunch of stances and other abilities.. I'd say to nerf the passiveness of the defense line first before nerfing Full Counter too hard.

Another thing to look at is Berserker Stance / Resistance. It makes the warrior totally immune to soft CC for quite some time and when you stack it with Full Counter's resistance, it's extremely annoying to fight.

so basically you want core war to be useless okay.....

nerf SpellBreaker over the defense line.

why on earth you want to gimp core warrior and leave full counter broken is beyond me. like, I get the nerfs to Last Stand but that's it for the defense line tbh.

nerf FC and the line that buffs it. remove the resistance on it before you touch zerker stance imo. that's one of core warrior's most important skills.

Invuln style passives need to leave the game entirely including passive elixar s, endure pain, signet of stone, and instant reflexes. That does not necessarily mean a straight nerf, but rather a change to promote active gameplay rather than relying on passives.

@FtoPScrub.5476 said:Invuln style passives need to leave the game entirely including passive elixar s, endure pain, signet of stone, and instant reflexes. That does not necessarily mean a straight nerf, but rather a change to promote active gameplay rather than relying on passives.

AGREE !!This passives have taken too much place in fighting. Players cannot do without it anymore. They no longer need to look at their lives because passives are activated by itself. Which makes the fights boring and too prédictable. We cannot even differentiate the good player from the bad player !

Key problem with Spellbreaker -- fighting it 1v1 is easier than 2v1. It's absolutely ridiculous!

About "Full Counter":

• AoE daze from Full Counter is fine even in teamfights. But it should do no damage (except for "Loss Aversion" trait damage of course). Daze duration should be reduced to 0.25 sec (like thief's pistol 4 skill).
• Full Counter removes one boon -- it's fine. I think Spellbreaker should be counter for boon heavy classes.
• Cooldown should be slightly increased to 10-12 sec. Increasing it futher will essentially make Spellbreaker same as core warrior.
• "Revenge Counter". That's really broken part of Full Counter. It crushes enemy team in teamfights and makes 2v1 against Spellbreaker ineffective. Should be reworked totally. This trait should add moderate damage (around 2K on crit) to Full Counter.
• Pets, illusions, etc should not trigger Full Counter. All their attacks should be considered as evaded.

they will nerf numbers.> @Armaelus.6120 said:

@FtoPScrub.5476 said:Invuln style passives need to leave the game entirely including passive elixar s, endure pain, signet of stone, and instant reflexes. That does not necessarily mean a straight nerf, but rather a change to promote active gameplay rather than relying on passives.

these passives becomes essential because thief and mesmer exist

@Lighter.5631 said:these passives becomes essential because thief and mesmer exist

uhh so all other classes need to be hurted because of those 2? wher at all just warrior is hardcounter to thief (only expection can be DE but also then need perfect timing and then run away)

sae is with condis...because guard and warrior have the best def against condis (resistance on up with condi cleanse) all other classes are punished by this with to much burst with condis with to fast application so your argument is invalid because as with your thought condi burst higher than power exist because of guard and warrior

Simplest way to do things without hurting core War, nor changing too much gameplay of SB : make damage from FC scale with healing power.Edit: or maybe not... the idea is just to make it harder to have everything at once.

@Exedore.6320 said:Last Stand absolutely needs changed. All traits which automatically break you out of a CC in response to a CC should be changed. Traits like that ruin the game.

I honestly don't mind defy pain. In vanilla, it would usually just be prolonging an inevitable death.

Full Counter is fine by itself. The problem is that it's stacked on top of the defense line and a bunch of stances and other abilities.. I'd say to nerf the passiveness of the defense line first before nerfing Full Counter too hard.

Another thing to look at is Berserker Stance / Resistance. It makes the warrior totally immune to soft CC for quite some time and when you stack it with Full Counter's resistance, it's extremely annoying to fight.

The stances had already gotten nerfed. Endure Pain and Berserker Stance are fine. Last Stand is odd because I don't see it the game breaker with spellbreaker, but I can see it being annoying. I'd go with a minor change, and nothing drastic, since Last Stand is not the bulk of the issue.

You don't want to gut core war or zerker.

1) set Full Counter to 10 seconds base cooldown2) let the Warrior gain any FC benefits only if FC actually hits the target that proc'd FC (!) (dodging it is currently close to pointless and its too strong in team fights)3) cut resistance uptime in half (a good amount of that is already achieved with nerf number 2)4) apply PvP balance changes to WvW (2 sec EP at lower CD ...)

This might already be enough to balance this shit.

@KrHome.1920 said:1) set Full Counter to 10 seconds base cooldown2) let the Warrior gain any FC benefits only if FC actually hits (dodging it is currently close to pointless)3) cut resistance uptime in half (a good amount of that is already achieved with nerf number 2)4) apply PvP balance changes to WvW (2 sec EP at lower CD ...)

This might already be enough to balance this s.hitclass.

1) is about right, no oppose really.2) the whole point of FC is to make use of the skill to absorb damage and strike back, as long as it is trigger, there is no reason not allow a spellbreaker to gain benefit. But it is okay to remove resistance on revenge counter to me.3) resistance uptime is fine, unless condi spam is greatly reduced, otherwise it is hurting core warrior more.4) since wvw is also pvp, it is acceptable to me

Smart players already learned how to deal with spellbreaker no matter in pvp or wvw.

@Crossaber.8934 said:1) is about right, no oppose really.2) the whole point of FC is to make use of the skill to absorb damage and strike back, as long as it is trigger, there is no reason not allow a spellbreaker to gain benefit. But it is okay to remove resistance on revenge counter to me.3) resistance uptime is fine, unless condi spam is greatly reduced, otherwise it is hurting core warrior more.4) since wvw is also pvp, it is acceptable to me

Smart players already learned how to deal with spellbreaker no matter in pvp or wvw.The FC mechanic scales up with multiple opponents. Spellbreaker is actually stronger in a 1v2 than in a 1v1 as it is easier for him to land FC and become immune to stuns, soft cc, direct and condi damage for a very long amount of time while being able to burst like a thief. He can even ignore corruptions as reapplicating resistance is super easy for him.

I found myself losing fights against SBs which I slowly outrotated by avoiding 3 and more FCs, because a few seconds before he'd go down some other player came in and triggered FC which buffed the SB that he could kill both of us.

In its current state SB is like a thief that does not need to disengeage for at least 10 seconds while keeping up its pressure. And even after that time he has the tools to pull himself out of combat. Anyone who says this is balanced seriously needs to get good at the game.

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Crossaber.8934 said:1) is about right, no oppose really.2) the whole point of FC is to make use of the skill to absorb damage and strike back, as long as it is trigger, there is no reason not allow a spellbreaker to gain benefit. But it is okay to remove resistance on revenge counter to me.3) resistance uptime is fine, unless condi spam is greatly reduced, otherwise it is hurting core warrior more.4) since wvw is also pvp, it is acceptable to me

Smart players already learned how to deal with spellbreaker no matter in pvp or wvw.The FC mechanic scales up with multiple opponents. Spellbreaker is actually stronger in a 1v2 than in a 1v1 as it is easier for him to land FC and become immune to stuns, soft cc, direct and condi damage for a very long amount of time while being able to burst like a thief. He can even ignore corruptions as reapplicating resistance is super easy for him.

So this does sound familiar, __ class is overpowered, need to nerf , _, ___ and .I am not saying i cannot beat it, actually i am able to beat this class by and __, so i don't have this L2play issue. But since to beat this class, i need to work extra hard, so please nerf it so that i can beat it without extra effort.

While you know what, my reply actually agree that it is acceptable to nerf FC a bit, i just do not agree with every point you've said.

@Lighter.5631 said:they will nerf numbers.> @Armaelus.6120 said:

@FtoPScrub.5476 said:Invuln style passives need to leave the game entirely including passive elixar s, endure pain, signet of stone, and instant reflexes. That does not necessarily mean a straight nerf, but rather a change to promote active gameplay rather than relying on passives.

Definitely have a point there... however active defenses may prove to be just as effective vs. Thief/Mesmer with enough skill and firm grasp on mechanics. Nobody said to delete the defense from Engi/War