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Red Lady and Mysterious Skeletons

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  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    We know that the dead bodies were people (Necromancers) who answered the call of the Red Lady and they were killed by an Ax (Aatxe?) or a Sword. So it's unlikely to me that the Red Lady is an ally to the Underworld creatures.
    What if the Red Lady is indeed Livia and she is gathering new allies, Necromancers from the text, to use them to stop the invasion of Underworld creatures (and even Dhuum) on Tyria?

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2017

    @TealDeer.4217 said:

    @Arden.7480 said:
    Who is capable to speak to somebody in dreams? If the victims would be Sylvari the answer would be: Pale Tree or Mordremoth, but the victims are humans so somebody has to have powers to connect with people's minds.

    Does Dhuum have the powers to connect with people's minds?

    Actually, yes, he does:

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Invasion_From_Within

    In Nightfallen Jahai, the Forgotten Rukkassa's mind is invaded by Dhuum's forces, causing him to fight against his allies.

    edit

    Regarding the Modus Scleris event that happens near that statue of Grenth in Lornar's Pass, what triggers it? I thought I was crazy remembering an event there, but perhaps not. I wonder if said event has changed at all with this update?

    As I hoped. Because I tried to find a god that is somehow related to minds--- similar to Mordremoth and nobody didn't fit it, eventually Lyssa--

    "She touched each man on his head, one at a time, as they laughed and jibed her until, one at a time, they fell into a deep slumber.

    Each man dreamed a different dream, but each dream was a vision of the life they would lead once the war was over—wives, children, riches, open air, health, and peace."~from legend.

    So she also has some powers related to minds, dream. Interesting, could Lyssa be "The Red Lady"?

    Also there is a note that Lyssa is called "The Lady of the mirror", so perhaps "Lady" isn't an accident?

    The oldest and strongest emotion of mankind is fear, and the oldest and strongest kind of fear is fear of the unknown.

    H. P. Lovecraft

  • Athrenn.9468Athrenn.9468 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    But I suppose I'm just hopeful that my favorite GW1 villain of all time and most looked forward continued plot from GW1 will be getting a bigger spotlight than a mere raid. Hopefully it won't be getting the treatment that my fourth favorite GW1 villain got (Lazarus).

    Good lord, that's my biggest worry as well. The real Lazarus got 15 minutes of screen time and a few lines of dialogue before getting the magic sword finisher. So much wasted potential in my opinion.

    I think that pacing, story structure, and villain characterization are the weakest parts of recent Living World storytelling. They only gave themselves six episodes to work with and didn't spend enough time building up Balthazar as the main threat of the next expansion. The big identity reveal came 5 episodes into the 6 episode arc along with an anticlimactic fix to the threat of Jormag and Primordus which was established early on in the season. It's the same problem that you get trying to cram a novel's worth of plot into a novelette: you're not going to be able to do a complex, multifaceted plot justice so instead it all feels rushed. What the writers need to do is go in depth on a limited range of characters, locations, and plot elements according to how much screen time they've been given.

    In the case of Balthazar's alter ego (Lazarus), the identity reveal counts as two characters in your expository 'budget' because you're spending time building up the threat of Lazarus and the White Mantle that you're not spending on your real villain. Actually, if you want to get really technical they were trying to build up the threat of five big bads at the same time: Lazarus, Caudecus, Primordus, Jormag, and Balthazar. It's no wonder that none of the resolutions felt very satisfying in the end, or at least not to me. There's too much complexity and not enough time to do the story justice.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    But I suppose I'm just hopeful that my favorite GW1 villain of all time and most looked forward continued plot from GW1 will be getting a bigger spotlight than a mere raid. Hopefully it won't be getting the treatment that my fourth favorite GW1 villain got (Lazarus).

    In a Raid, Dhuum will appear awesome and super powerful. Instead if it's in a story he will be like Lazarus or Balthazar, in my opinion both those fights pale in comparison with the Raid fights and I much rather fight Dhuum as a boss like Xera than a boss like Lazarus or Balthazar. Xera feels epic and powerful, while the other two are weaklings, especially Lazarus, at least Balthazar had some unique fight mechanics.

  • I'm divided here. On one hand, I really don't like raids, I feel it detracts much needed ressources from the main game. But on the other hand, from what I get, fights and stories are formidable there and a plot such as the Underworld being in absolute chaos would deserve as much awesomeness as possible. But the first raids (especially the one with Saul) really rubbed me the wrong way, because of the time I have to play GW2 don't allow me to go farming components for Ascended gear and then raiding, so missing all those awesome stories making me angry...

  • I stood next to a skeleton near Shadow Behemoth when it died and I got this glittering effect on me. Thoughts? http://renkungw2.tumblr.com/post/167377468340/renkungw2-ok-guys-i-might-have-found-something

  • FrizzFreston.5290FrizzFreston.5290 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    The Mysterious Skeletons drop Halloween creature drops, but that may be just an oversight from making them out of the Blood Prince's skeletons.

    They seem to be skeletons covered in shadow.

    They appear only during the night cycle, same as the Behemoth and the Lady in White.

    The effect that gives a Nourishment when /kneeling in front of the statue spells things in New Krytan. I tried reading them, but they flash too fast, and the words are random and different every time you /kneel. I only got time to read one from screenshots: "BOGGNOSCE".

    On 4 different occasions I got:

    OBGLO
    EEAPCI
    PROGBG
    COIOBG

    Not accounting for the Gs are upsidedown Cs and the P being more of a rounded arrow down.
    Some of it seems familiar to me, I might have translated this before. Or it's on items with similar text.

  • Fenom.9457Fenom.9457 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Athrenn.9468 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    But I suppose I'm just hopeful that my favorite GW1 villain of all time and most looked forward continued plot from GW1 will be getting a bigger spotlight than a mere raid. Hopefully it won't be getting the treatment that my fourth favorite GW1 villain got (Lazarus).

    Good lord, that's my biggest worry as well. The real Lazarus got 15 minutes of screen time and a few lines of dialogue before getting the magic sword finisher. So much wasted potential in my opinion.

    I think that pacing, story structure, and villain characterization are the weakest parts of recent Living World storytelling. They only gave themselves six episodes to work with and didn't spend enough time building up Balthazar as the main threat of the next expansion. The big identity reveal came 5 episodes into the 6 episode arc along with an anticlimactic fix to the threat of Jormag and Primordus which was established early on in the season. It's the same problem that you get trying to cram a novel's worth of plot into a novelette: you're not going to be able to do a complex, multifaceted plot justice so instead it all feels rushed. What the writers need to do is go in depth on a limited range of characters, locations, and plot elements according to how much screen time they've been given.

    In the case of Balthazar's alter ego (Lazarus), the identity reveal counts as two characters in your expository 'budget' because you're spending time building up the threat of Lazarus and the White Mantle that you're not spending on your real villain. Actually, if you want to get really technical they were trying to build up the threat of five big bads at the same time: Lazarus, Caudecus, Primordus, Jormag, and Balthazar. It's no wonder that none of the resolutions felt very satisfying in the end, or at least not to me. There's too much complexity and not enough time to do the story justice.

    With expansions taking a minimum of 18 months (PoF), we'll more likely get nine episodes this time. We only got six before because anet didn't have a plan and there was a drought between HoT and bloodstone fen. This time we'll be getting regular releases immediately.

    HARRY! DIDYA PUT YER NAME IN DA GOBLET OF FIYAH?!

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:
    We know that the dead bodies were people (Necromancers) who answered the call of the Red Lady and they were killed by an Ax (Aatxe?) or a Sword. So it's unlikely to me that the Red Lady is an ally to the Underworld creatures.
    What if the Red Lady is indeed Livia and she is gathering new allies, Necromancers from the text, to use them to stop the invasion of Underworld creatures (and even Dhuum) on Tyria?

    Priests, rather than necromancers. But you seem to be ignoring the possibility that the 'red lady' was luring in the priests to be killed as they were answering a call or dream of some sort.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    But I suppose I'm just hopeful that my favorite GW1 villain of all time and most looked forward continued plot from GW1 will be getting a bigger spotlight than a mere raid. Hopefully it won't be getting the treatment that my fourth favorite GW1 villain got (Lazarus).

    In a Raid, Dhuum will appear awesome and super powerful. Instead if it's in a story he will be like Lazarus or Balthazar, in my opinion both those fights pale in comparison with the Raid fights and I much rather fight Dhuum as a boss like Xera than a boss like Lazarus or Balthazar. Xera feels epic and powerful, while the other two are weaklings, especially Lazarus, at least Balthazar had some unique fight mechanics.

    I feel the combat and exposure to Balthaddon was done fine, but that his motivation / offscreen character development was poorly handled.

    I don't think a raid would improve either case of combat or story anymore than being part of the main plot - if anything it ensures a "once then done" establishment of the villain just like Zhaitan and Mordremoth which I would rather not have.

    Balthaddon had, imo, definitely appeared powerful (he visually set the world on fire for that final battle) though he could have had better attacks that were less repetitious in the beginning of the fight. I feel that a simple challenge mote would be all that is needed to placate the "casual" as well as the "hardcore" (I use quotation marks because being unable to defeat an unhealing Caudecus or Balthazar or defeat the Eater of Souls is not a result of being casual but simply needing to know how to dodge and learning the mechanics of the fight).

    Well I could rant about the lack of challenging single player content that is easily fixed while not restricting the "casuals" of their own gameplay.

    -yawn-

    @Renkku.7451 said:
    I stood next to a skeleton near Shadow Behemoth when it died and I got this glittering effect on me. Thoughts? http://renkungw2.tumblr.com/post/167377468340/renkungw2-ok-guys-i-might-have-found-something

    Sure that wasn't the level up effect glitching out? Kind of looks like that to me.

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  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Renkku.7451 said:
    I stood next to a skeleton near Shadow Behemoth when it died and I got this glittering effect on me. Thoughts? http://renkungw2.tumblr.com/post/167377468340/renkungw2-ok-guys-i-might-have-found-something

    Sure that wasn't the level up effect glitching out? Kind of looks like that to me.

    It's not the level up effect but someone pointed out to me that it could be a loot effect glitching. I've had the autoloot on for years now. I'll add the full screenshot to show my xp bar.hs9oif.jpg

  • Fenom.9457Fenom.9457 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Sure that wasn't the level up effect glitching out? Kind of looks like that to me.

    THAT'S WHAT THEY WANT YOU TO THINK! Conspiracyyyyyy confiiiiiiiirmed

    HARRY! DIDYA PUT YER NAME IN DA GOBLET OF FIYAH?!

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2017

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Priests, rather than necromancers. But you seem to be ignoring the possibility that the 'red lady' was luring in the priests to be killed as they were answering a call or dream of some sort.

    That's true a possibility I didn't think about.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I don't think a raid would improve either case of combat or story anymore than being part of the main plot - if anything it ensures a "once then done" establishment of the villain just like Zhaitan and Mordremoth which I would rather not have.

    You are right about the story, I was talking more about the gameplay part. In Guild Wars 1 we fought Dhuum in a party of 8 together with the 7 reapers of Grenth, that's 15 people fighting him. If a single person with a magic sword goes and kills him, like what happened with both Lazarus and Balthazar (ok we had Livia/Aurene with us) I'd be really upset. At least with Mordremoth we fought his mind and it made some sense, while we fought the Mouth of Mordremoth with a bazillion other people in Dragon's Stand. I just find it really sad for a single person to be able to defeat gods and elder dragons, they are super powerful yet they die by the commander. Solo.

  • Fenom.9457Fenom.9457 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Priests, rather than necromancers. But you seem to be ignoring the possibility that the 'red lady' was luring in the priests to be killed as they were answering a call or dream of some sort.

    That's true a possibility I didn't think about.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I don't think a raid would improve either case of combat or story anymore than being part of the main plot - if anything it ensures a "once then done" establishment of the villain just like Zhaitan and Mordremoth which I would rather not have.

    You are right about the story, I was talking more about the gameplay part. In Guild Wars 1 we fought Dhuum in a party of 8 together with the 7 reapers of Grenth, that's 15 people fighting him. If a single person with a magic sword goes and kills him, like what happened with both Lazarus and Balthazar (ok we had Livia/Aurene with us) I'd be really upset. At least with Mordremoth we fought his mind and it made some sense, while we fought the Mouth of Mordremoth with a bazillion other people in Dragon's Stand. I just find it really sad for a single person to be able to defeat gods and elder dragons, they are super powerful yet they die by the commander. Solo.

    Maybe we can recruit the top champions and avatars left behind in the god's realms. We know by seeing the judge that the gods didn't take them

    HARRY! DIDYA PUT YER NAME IN DA GOBLET OF FIYAH?!

  • @Renkku.7451 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Renkku.7451 said:
    I stood next to a skeleton near Shadow Behemoth when it died and I got this glittering effect on me. Thoughts? http://renkungw2.tumblr.com/post/167377468340/renkungw2-ok-guys-i-might-have-found-something

    Sure that wasn't the level up effect glitching out? Kind of looks like that to me.

    It's not the level up effect but someone pointed out to me that it could be a loot effect glitching. I've had the autoloot on for years now. I'll add the full screenshot to show my xp bar.hs9oif.jpg

    Perhaps when they die, the game suddenly decides that they're hostile for a split second and tries to have you auto-loot their corpses, but something about the design prevents that from happening, causing the loot effect animation to get stuck? Basically, a bug in regards to how the player character interacts with the skeletons at the moment of death. If it is a bug like that, then the effect means virtually nothing. Otherwise, the only other thing I could think of is that it's supposed to be the skeletons leaving some kind of magic residue behind on your character. Though... leaving behind magic residue wouldn't indicate much, so it's more likely just a bug.

  • Tamias.7059Tamias.7059 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    We know that the dead bodies were people (Necromancers) who answered the call of the Red Lady and they were killed by an Ax (Aatxe?) or a Sword. So it's unlikely to me that the Red Lady is an ally to the Underworld creatures.
    What if the Red Lady is indeed Livia and she is gathering new allies, Necromancers from the text, to use them to stop the invasion of Underworld creatures (and even Dhuum) on Tyria?

    Priests, rather than necromancers. But you seem to be ignoring the possibility that the 'red lady' was luring in the priests to be killed as they were answering a call or dream of some sort.

    Both are priests, but the one in Godslost Swamp, at least, is a necromancer as well. We learn this from talking to the norn necromancer after interacting with his corpse. Priests of Grenth, at a guess.

  • @Sorann Peace.9056 said:

    @Renkku.7451 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Renkku.7451 said:
    I stood next to a skeleton near Shadow Behemoth when it died and I got this glittering effect on me. Thoughts? http://renkungw2.tumblr.com/post/167377468340/renkungw2-ok-guys-i-might-have-found-something

    Sure that wasn't the level up effect glitching out? Kind of looks like that to me.

    It's not the level up effect but someone pointed out to me that it could be a loot effect glitching. I've had the autoloot on for years now. I'll add the full screenshot to show my xp bar.hs9oif.jpg

    Perhaps when they die, the game suddenly decides that they're hostile for a split second and tries to have you auto-loot their corpses, but something about the design prevents that from happening, causing the loot effect animation to get stuck? Basically, a bug in regards to how the player character interacts with the skeletons at the moment of death. If it is a bug like that, then the effect means virtually nothing. Otherwise, the only other thing I could think of is that it's supposed to be the skeletons leaving some kind of magic residue behind on your character. Though... leaving behind magic residue wouldn't indicate much, so it's more likely just a bug.

    I tried this today again and could not reproduce the effect. Probably a bug then :/

  • @Renkku.7451 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Renkku.7451 said:
    I stood next to a skeleton near Shadow Behemoth when it died and I got this glittering effect on me. Thoughts? http://renkungw2.tumblr.com/post/167377468340/renkungw2-ok-guys-i-might-have-found-something

    Sure that wasn't the level up effect glitching out? Kind of looks like that to me.

    It's not the level up effect but someone pointed out to me that it could be a loot effect glitching. I've had the autoloot on for years now. I'll add the full screenshot to show my xp bar.hs9oif.jpg

    That is indeed a bug related to autoloot that happens sometimes. Autoloot makes that glow appear on you when you autoloot and when you gather nodes, and it sometimes gets stuck.

  • Preyar.6783Preyar.6783 Member ✭✭✭

    Did people see that the focus called Adam got its icon updated with the November 7th patch? This item is also the skull that the GW1 Necromancer, Eve, held and talked to....I wonder.

    35000 AP Reached! (7th April 2018)

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2017

    @Preyar.6783 said:
    Did people see that the focus called Adam got its icon updated with the November 7th patch? This item is also the skull that the GW1 Necromancer, Eve, held and talked to....I wonder.

    I did see it, but given that the former icon was shared with a trash item, it was in long need of being updated. So I'm not convinced to claim it's related just yet.

    It may be that they made a new icon for future content and saw it fit Adam better and having these two items shared would be better than sharing an exotic weapon icon with a vendor trash icon. Hard to say though.

    EDIT: And I just remembered a very old trivia fun fact about Eve. It was originally planned for Prophecies to reveal that Eve had a very special ancestry (what that was, was never revealed). This plot got scrapped at some point during development, but given they brought back Devona in PoF we may see this return as well.

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  • Zalani.9827Zalani.9827 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2017

    Considering what happens in a certain PoF instance and G-man going bye bye... I believe that we are dealing with the fallout of an unstable Underworld that is starting to bleed into tyria via spots like godslost swamp. Anet showed Korms realm falling apart for a reason.
    I'm not sure what to make of the red lady but I can see the commander being in trouble for escaping the underworld if Dhuum gets out which could make an interesting side story for the next lw.

    Jadis Narnia, Sylvari Ranger of [VoS]

    Praise Joko!

  • Assic.2746Assic.2746 Member ✭✭✭

    Interestingly the Stanctum - Kormir's realm or a part of her realm also falls to shadow creatures & aatxes.

  • @Assic.2746 said:
    Interestingly the Stanctum - Kormir's realm or a part of her realm also falls to shadow creatures & aatxes.

    That is indeed a bit strange, since there wasn't that many shadow creatures in the Torment. While there was many Shadow Army, shadow creatures like Abyssals and Aatxes were not that frequent.

    Looks like the remains of margonites or at least inscripted monliths ended up turned into Jackals, but nightmare creatures remained in the mists, and they are leaking from the underworld. There was probably no new Titans made, and there's no signs of stygians or torment creatures. Some demons similar to torment creatures served Dhuum, too, and dryders were also related to Dhuum. Even though we haven't seen any Dryders for ages.
    The closest we've ever seen to a dryder is Samarog. While dryders were spider-like creatures and Samarog looks dragon-like, both have a par of arms coming from the middle of their backs between their legs. While that is the only similarity, it's a rather noticeable one. But that doesn't mean they are related in any way, since you also have djinn, forgotten and seer sharing a particularity like that: 4 arms.

    Then there's Dhumm's skeletons. Unless fleshreavers are also related to Dhuum in some way, the closest we've seem to a Dhuum servant are these mysterious skeletons, since Dhuum had an army of skeletons and the Skeletal Army in fissure wasn't part of Menzie's forces, so they could have been Dhuum's.

    So what does it say to us that the creatures taking over the Sanctum were ghosts, imps, fleshreavers and shades instead any of the previusly found enemies? Well, not much, since that could have just been using the assets they have, since it's cheaper than making new ones.

  • maxwelgm.4315maxwelgm.4315 Member ✭✭✭

    @Assic.2746 said:
    Interestingly the Stanctum - Kormir's realm or a part of her realm also falls to shadow creatures & aatxes.

    I wondered about that do while doing the Griffon quests. I thought Aatxes and shades were beings particular to the Underworld? Anet's interview and in-game lore conflict themselves here because they claim Abbadon's older minions invaded in interview but if you ask the spirit inside the Dark Sanctum she says beings simply from "the Mists" invaded (or was it the other way around?). You'd expect that if the realm was falling apart, crazy/random things like Fractal enemies would invade and not minions that are specifically from the Underworld. Maybe Dhuum is raiding every godly realm at once (which gives plenty of opportunity for both Living World AND raid scenarios complementing each other, by the way).

  • I think the presence of Nightmares, Imps, and Fleshreavers was just because those are the only "established generic evil Mists creatures" that GW2 has models for already and they didn't want to create a brand new set of foes for that one singular instance.

    The only creatures seen in GW1 that were "native" to the Realm of Torment, from a technically view point, were just the Margonites, some torment demons, and titans. Though getting technical, torment creatures / stygians are "general Mists beings" like Nightmares, and had only a few breeding grouns in the Realm of Torment (primarily the Stygian Veil).

    In the AMA a dev said that they were just "evil Mists beings" and not Abaddon forces like the NPCs there claim.

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    the closest we've seem to a Dhuum servant are these mysterious skeletons, since Dhuum had an army of skeletons and the Skeletal Army in fissure wasn't part of Menzie's forces, so they could have been Dhuum's.

    That would be true if you're ignoring the dryders that are outright stated to have been sent by Dhuum, the dream riders which The Fury is one of and are among the forces invading the Tomb of the Primeval Kings / Dragon Festival but never shows up among Abaddon's or Menzies' forces, ignoring that [some torment demons are called emmisaries of Dhuum](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Emissary_of_Dhuum_(warrior)), and ignoring that the titans, though born in the Realm of Torment during GW1's time period, were being created by The Fury thus being among Dhuum's forces not Abaddon's.

    In short:

    • Menzies' forces: Nightmares (Shadow Army) and some torment demons (Darknesses, Greater Darkness, and the Deathbringer Company)
    • Abaddon's forces: Margonites and Stygian Veil's torment demons
    • Dhuum's forces: Skeletons, dryders, titans, ghosts, and some torment demons

    We are unsure which of the three some groups align with, primarily chaos wurms, due to them only showing up during a clear combination-of-all-three assault (Tombs and Dragon Festival)

    Dhuum's forces are the most diverse, but at the same time every group is few in number.

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:
    Anet's interview and in-game lore conflict themselves here because they claim Abbadon's older minions invaded in interview but if you ask the spirit inside the Dark Sanctum she says beings simply from "the Mists" invaded (or was it the other way around?).

    It was the other way around, and given evidence you'd take the AMA over the NPC who could be argued to be an unreliable narrator.

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:
    You'd expect that if the realm was falling apart, crazy/random things like Fractal enemies would invade and not minions that are specifically from the Underworld. Maybe Dhuum is raiding every godly realm at once (which gives plenty of opportunity for both Living World AND raid scenarios complementing each other, by the way).

    Not necessarily. Firstly, it deals with where in the Mists both things are. The Realm of Torment is directly connected to the Underworld after all, so it's bound to be much closer than any of the Fractals. Secondly, it deals with where else in the Mists Nightmares and such can be found - we know that Nightmares pop into Thaumanova Reactor Fractal when it's going all Mists-crazy, which implies that they're more common than simply within the Underworld, not to mention that Nightmares (especially shades and shade-like creatures in GW2) are seen all over the place in Tyria as well, even without Mists involvement.

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  • Fenom.9457Fenom.9457 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It would be great if before going into dhuum as a new enemy's and making new monsters to fight and such, if they've would release a current event that explains which enemies belong to which former god/God level threat people. Between adding those enemies somewhere new and having us scour the world for history tomes, they could explain it all easily and prepare noobs

    HARRY! DIDYA PUT YER NAME IN DA GOBLET OF FIYAH?!

  • Tamias.7059Tamias.7059 Member ✭✭✭

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    Then there's Dhumm's skeletons. Unless fleshreavers are also related to Dhuum in some way, the closest we've seem to a Dhuum servant are these mysterious skeletons, since Dhuum had an army of skeletons and the Skeletal Army in fissure wasn't part of Menzie's forces, so they could have been Dhuum's.

    So what does it say to us that the creatures taking over the Sanctum were ghosts, imps, fleshreavers and shades instead any of the previusly found enemies? Well, not much, since that could have just been using the assets they have, since it's cheaper than making new ones.

    Actually, I think fleshreavers were created by the charr Rragar Maneater way back in GW1. The Master Dungeon Guide on Rragar's Menagerie says,

    Greater dangers awaited deep within the earth, where a Charr named Rragar Maneater bred a race of murderous creatures. These creatures, known as fleshreavers, were horrible, voracious monsters with an unusual evolutionary method. Young fleshreavers, it seems, are born as barely more than tiny skeletons. To survive and evolve, the emaciated young rely on their parents to harvest muscle, organ, and fat from their prey, and then layer it over their skeletons of the newborns. Rragar had taken advantage of this disgusting, yet easily-manipulated evolution, to perform ghastly experiments on the fleshreavers, turning them into powerful weapons to be used against humanity. By searching carefully, we found unexpected allies among Rragar's failed creations. Rragar was still difficult to defeat, for he was armed with powerful magic and could teleport freely around his twisted workshop.

    In GW1 fleshreavers were only ever encountered in Rragar's Menagerie and one other Depths of Tyria map, the Heart of the Shiverpeaks. It wasn't until GW2 that we get any suggestion that they have anything to do with the Mists.

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    the closest we've seem to a Dhuum servant are these mysterious skeletons, since Dhuum had an army of skeletons and the Skeletal Army in fissure wasn't part of Menzie's forces, so they could have been Dhuum's.

    That would be true if you're ignoring the dryders that are outright stated to have been sent by Dhuum, the dream riders which The Fury is one of and are among the forces invading the Tomb of the Primeval Kings / Dragon Festival but never shows up among Abaddon's or Menzies' forces, ignoring that [some torment demons are called emmisaries of Dhuum](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Emissary_of_Dhuum_(warrior)), and ignoring that the titans, though born in the Realm of Torment during GW1's time period, were being created by The Fury thus being among Dhuum's forces not Abaddon's.

    I'm surprised to hear this. From everything I've seen, the titans were presented as doing Abaddon's work (directing the charr to perform the Searing ritual etc.). I can't remember why but I know that the consensus in the lore community from a very early stage (Dragon Festival 2006 IIRC) was that the Fury was affiliated with Dhuum. But we never fee the titans fight alongside Dhuum's forces in the Underworld, Dragon Festival, or Tombs of Primeval Kings, and they are generally more associated with the Realm of Torment than the Underworld in general.

  • brenda.9723brenda.9723 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 13, 2017

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Book_(Godslost_Swamp)

    Are these books new?
    I never saw them before.

  • brenda.9723brenda.9723 Member ✭✭✭

    I really like the new story.
    The skeletons are so creepy, more then the boss lol ^ ^

  • FrizzFreston.5290FrizzFreston.5290 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 13, 2017

    @brenda.9723 said:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Book_(Godslost_Swamp)

    Are these books new?
    I never saw them before.

    They have been there since launch.

  • I have a few suspicions on this. However, warning: spoiler heavy, proceed at your own risk.

    With the departure of the 5 remaining gods and the death of Balthazar, there is a power gap in the Mists. Menzies has not been mentioned since Guild Wars when he attempted to help a fallen god escape from his prison. Now, with no one to challenge him, this god may be making his move. He is death incarnate. He is the damnation of souls. He is Dhuum...and he is coming.

    Wolf Moonstar
    Dragon Council, Third Seat: Jade Sea Haven (Jade) Ehmry Bay
    Zen Phantom

  • Warlord.9082Warlord.9082 Member ✭✭✭

    I think we are talking about The Countess of Hakewood here (https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Countess_of_Hakewood). She is from D.S. (D'Alessio Seaboard), she's a Halloween character, she wears red. Also, a quote from the mission "An Ingenious Plan" that she gives: "The time draws near. Can you feel it? The seals that divide this world from our realm grow weaker".

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 13, 2017

    @Tamias.7059 said:
    Actually, I think fleshreavers were created by the charr Rragar Maneater way back in GW1. The Master Dungeon Guide on Rragar's Menagerie says,
    -snip-
    In GW1 fleshreavers were only ever encountered in Rragar's Menagerie and one other Depths of Tyria map, the Heart of the Shiverpeaks. It wasn't until GW2 that we get any suggestion that they have anything to do with the Mists.

    Rragar breed the fleshreavers, as that entry says. He did not create them. The fact they could be found in the Heart of the Shiverpeaks, so very, very far away from charr homelands, shows this.

    @Tamias.7059 said:
    I'm surprised to hear this. From everything I've seen, the titans were presented as doing Abaddon's work (directing the charr to perform the Searing ritual etc.). I can't remember why but I know that the consensus in the lore community from a very early stage (Dragon Festival 2006 IIRC) was that the Fury was affiliated with Dhuum. But we never fee the titans fight alongside Dhuum's forces in the Underworld, Dragon Festival, or Tombs of Primeval Kings, and they are generally more associated with the Realm of Torment than the Underworld in general.

    The titans were doing Abaddon's work, but so was The Fury and The Darknesses. Hence they were in an alliance. The Fury was only connected to Dhuum once DoA was released.

    Tell me about this place.
    "The Foundry of Failed Creation is not merely a prison camp. It also acts as a staging area for an attack on the mortal plane. The Fury and his minions await the opening of the Door of Komalie, a gateway that leads from here into Tyria. Some years ago a powerful lich...another powerful minion of Abaddon...opened a gateway. It only remained open a brief time, but countless souls were sent through to become titans. Fortunately, for reasons unknown to me, the Door of Komalie was closed almost immediately.
    Who is the Fury?
    "The Fury is the overseer of this hell hole. He is a follower of Dhuum, but served the fallen god, Abaddon until his defeat. Now, the Fury has taken up a new master, Mallyx the Unyielding, the lord of this realm. The Fury uses demonic troops to torment the souls of the prisoners within these walls. Those torments souls are part of some dark ritual to create powerful titans.
    Why is he creating titans?
    "This is what the world would be like if demons stitched together a number of failed realities to create a home for themselves. It is the Foundry of Failed Creations, and houses the Fury, his demon enforcers, and the spirits of broken prisoners."

    http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Relkyss_the_Broken

    What will we find inside the Foundry?
    "Inside the Foundry is the Door of Komalie...a passage to the realm of the living. Countless Titans wander these halls. They are sick, twisted creatures formed by tormented souls. The followers of Dhuum have gathered here under the command of The Fury, seeking to gain favor with Mallyx the Unyielding."

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Aurus_Trevess

    Khilbron was commanding not Abaddon's forces, but Dhuum's forces offered to Abaddon.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    What will we find inside the Foundry?
    "Inside the Foundry is the Door of Komalie...a passage to the realm of the living. Countless Titans wander these halls. They are sick, twisted creatures formed by tormented souls. The followers of Dhuum have gathered here under the command of The Fury, seeking to gain favor with Mallyx the Unyielding."

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Aurus_Trevess

    Khilbron was commanding not Abaddon's forces, but Dhuum's forces offered to Abaddon.

    I don't consider this to be in any way conclusive. The titans are mentioned separately to the followers of Dhuum - it is just as valid a reading of the passage, possibly even more so, that the titans and the followers of Dhuum are separate (but allied) groups within the Foundry, rather than that the titans belong to Dhuum.

    Consider that there are five groups of minions and allies of Abaddon (Margonites, Torment Demons, titans, Shadow Army, Dhuum-followers) and four realms before the Ebony Citadel. So two of them had to share a realm. It makes sense that given the origins of the titans that Dhuum might be involved, but I don't think there's anything that demonstrates that the titans were minions of Dhuum on loan to Abaddon, as opposed to being minions of Abaddon that Dhuum helped to create.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    [...]
    That would be true if you're ignoring the dryders that are outright stated to have been sent by Dhuum, the dream riders which The Fury is one of and are among the forces invading the Tomb of the Primeval Kings / Dragon Festival but never shows up among Abaddon's or Menzies' forces, ignoring that [some torment demons are called emmisaries of Dhuum](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Emissary_of_Dhuum_(warrior)), and ignoring that the titans, though born in the Realm of Torment during GW1's time period, were being created by The Fury thus being among Dhuum's forces not Abaddon's.

    I meant in GW2. If you read above I do mention dryders as being related to Dhuum. But we do not know if all dryders are. After all some of Dhuum's demons looked like other demons such as warrior torment creatures. That could mean that models are shared so they didn't have to make new ones, or that there's demons of the same kind siding with either Dhuum or Abaddon. And in the same way that could happen with such demons, it could happen with dryders, so we don't know if dryders are Dhuum's, or it's just some particular ones. There's the non-canon stuff about Arachnia. Looking kind of arachnid, dryders could have been servants of her that survived her disappearance.
    We just don't know of stuff that happened in the mists so far back.

  • in the north of the swamp in queensdale are these npc at a table. if you talk to one of them it opens up a big green portal and usually a veteran boss comes out there. did anyone check what happens now if you activate it? cant do it myself as i had no time today and need to get up early.

  • @draxynnic.3719 said:
    I don't consider this to be in any way conclusive. The titans are mentioned separately to the followers of Dhuum - it is just as valid a reading of the passage, possibly even more so, that the titans and the followers of Dhuum are separate (but allied) groups within the Foundry, rather than that the titans belong to Dhuum.

    Consider that there are five groups of minions and allies of Abaddon (Margonites, Torment Demons, titans, Shadow Army, Dhuum-followers) and four realms before the Ebony Citadel. So two of them had to share a realm. It makes sense that given the origins of the titans that Dhuum might be involved, but I don't think there's anything that demonstrates that the titans were minions of Dhuum on loan to Abaddon, as opposed to being minions of Abaddon that Dhuum helped to create.

    It's stated outright that the "followers of Dhuum" gathered at the Foundry. At the Foundry of Failed Creations you see only a handful of Margonites, many many titans, and a tiny couple of dryders and dream riders, most of which consist of The Fury and his guard.

    As such, if titans were not the followers of Dhuum you'd expect far more dryders and dream riders, at the very least.

    More telling however was the first quote NPC's line: "The Fury and his minions await the opening of the Door of Komalie, a gateway that leads from here into Tyria."

    Who went through the Door of Komalie? Titans. Who made the titans? The Fury.

    There isn't a single line anywhere that indicates that titans were being made outside of The Fury's purview.

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    I meant in GW2. If you read above I do mention dryders as being related to Dhuum. But we do not know if all dryders are. After all some of Dhuum's demons looked like other demons such as warrior torment creatures. That could mean that models are shared so they didn't have to make new ones, or that there's demons of the same kind siding with either Dhuum or Abaddon. And in the same way that could happen with such demons, it could happen with dryders, so we don't know if dryders are Dhuum's, or it's just some particular ones. There's the non-canon stuff about Arachnia. Looking kind of arachnid, dryders could have been servants of her that survived her disappearance.
    We just don't know of stuff that happened in the mists so far back.

    "In GW2" we don't see anything directly linked to Dhuum's minions, let alone skeletons. Indirectly, we only have one thing: the Shadow Behemoth.

    In GW1, all dryders in the Mists that we see are either tied to Dhuum or to nothing. Same with the Dream Riders. And then titans are only directly attached to Dhuum or Abaddon though in the latter it's no more than any other allied force.

    And Arachnia is non-canon so we cannot (accurately) consider it in the least until we get indication that it may be canon.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Tamias.7059Tamias.7059 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Tamias.7059 said:
    Actually, I think fleshreavers were created by the charr Rragar Maneater way back in GW1. The Master Dungeon Guide on Rragar's Menagerie says,
    -snip-
    In GW1 fleshreavers were only ever encountered in Rragar's Menagerie and one other Depths of Tyria map, the Heart of the Shiverpeaks. It wasn't until GW2 that we get any suggestion that they have anything to do with the Mists.

    Rragar breed the fleshreavers, as that entry says. He did not create them. The fact they could be found in the Heart of the Shiverpeaks, so very, very far away from charr homelands, shows this.

    It says that he bred a race of them. If someone is said to have bred a breed of dog, you would assume that that breed originated with them, rather than that person being one of many who cultivates that breed. Plus, we have Rragar himself calling Hidesplitter a "magnificent creation" and his "most prized speciment", and the Master Dungeon Guide entry says that Blobby is "among Rragar's failed creations".

    More concretely, in the quest Veiled Threat there are plenty of direct references to fleshreavers being Rragar's creations. "[Rragar] rears a new breed of creatures he intends to utilize to destroy humans", "Be sure to destroy his creations as well", "We've found you and your vile creations", ""You seem in a hurry to be devoured by our creations. My fleshreavers shall accomodate you". I'm sure there'd be more if I continued to look.

    Also, I think you might be exaggerating the distance between the Heart of the Shiverpeaks and the charr homelands. It's right near the Central Transfer Chamber, which is somewhere between the Shiverpeaks and Ascalon. The presence of fleshreavers in the Heart of the Shiverpeaks is most easily explained from the piece of trivia on GWW (from which most of the above information comes from) that says, "The first level in [Rragar's Menagerie] includes the entire last level of Heart of the Shiverpeaks as part of its map".

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    I don't consider this to be in any way conclusive. The titans are mentioned separately to the followers of Dhuum - it is just as valid a reading of the passage, possibly even more so, that the titans and the followers of Dhuum are separate (but allied) groups within the Foundry, rather than that the titans belong to Dhuum.

    Consider that there are five groups of minions and allies of Abaddon (Margonites, Torment Demons, titans, Shadow Army, Dhuum-followers) and four realms before the Ebony Citadel. So two of them had to share a realm. It makes sense that given the origins of the titans that Dhuum might be involved, but I don't think there's anything that demonstrates that the titans were minions of Dhuum on loan to Abaddon, as opposed to being minions of Abaddon that Dhuum helped to create.

    It's stated outright that the "followers of Dhuum" gathered at the Foundry. At the Foundry of Failed Creations you see only a handful of Margonites, many many titans, and a tiny couple of dryders and dream riders, most of which consist of The Fury and his guard.

    As such, if titans were not the followers of Dhuum you'd expect far more dryders and dream riders, at the very least.

    More telling however was the first quote NPC's line: "The Fury and his minions await the opening of the Door of Komalie, a gateway that leads from here into Tyria."

    Who went through the Door of Komalie? Titans. Who made the titans? The Fury.

    There isn't a single line anywhere that indicates that titans were being made outside of The Fury's purview.

    I recall quite a few dryders and dream riders in the rooms on the way in, too.

    We don't really know how many followers of Dhuum there were actually left in the Domain of Anguish at that point, or how many were under the Fury's control rather than another of Dhuum's representatives. If his job was to help with producing the titans, he might not actually have had a huge army to begin with.

    It's possible that, after Abaddon's death, the Fury assumed command of the titans, either through his own power or as a delegate of Mallyx, but I don't think anything points to the titans being Dhuum's as opposed to being Abaddon's.

    @Tamias.7059 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Tamias.7059 said:
    Actually, I think fleshreavers were created by the charr Rragar Maneater way back in GW1. The Master Dungeon Guide on Rragar's Menagerie says,
    -snip-
    In GW1 fleshreavers were only ever encountered in Rragar's Menagerie and one other Depths of Tyria map, the Heart of the Shiverpeaks. It wasn't until GW2 that we get any suggestion that they have anything to do with the Mists.

    Rragar breed the fleshreavers, as that entry says. He did not create them. The fact they could be found in the Heart of the Shiverpeaks, so very, very far away from charr homelands, shows this.

    It says that he bred a race of them. If someone is said to have bred a breed of dog, you would assume that that breed originated with them, rather than that person being one of many who cultivates that breed. Plus, we have Rragar himself calling Hidesplitter a "magnificent creation" and his "most prized speciment", and the Master Dungeon Guide entry says that Blobby is "among Rragar's failed creations".

    More concretely, in the quest Veiled Threat there are plenty of direct references to fleshreavers being Rragar's creations. "[Rragar] rears a new breed of creatures he intends to utilize to destroy humans", "Be sure to destroy his creations as well", "We've found you and your vile creations", ""You seem in a hurry to be devoured by our creations. My fleshreavers shall accomodate you". I'm sure there'd be more if I continued to look.

    Also, I think you might be exaggerating the distance between the Heart of the Shiverpeaks and the charr homelands. It's right near the Central Transfer Chamber, which is somewhere between the Shiverpeaks and Ascalon. The presence of fleshreavers in the Heart of the Shiverpeaks is most easily explained from the piece of trivia on GWW (from which most of the above information comes from) that says, "The first level in [Rragar's Menagerie] includes the entire last level of Heart of the Shiverpeaks as part of its map".

    The lore on fleshreavers is a bit all over the place. My interpretation from the Master Dungeon Guide is that fleshreavers existed before Rragar, but Rragar found them to be a suitable starting point for his experiments - to use your breeding analogy, he created new breeds of fleshreavers, but he didn't create the species (you wouldn't say that your hypothetical dog breeder created the species of dogs, after all, just the specific breed(s). The life cycle of fleshreavers seems to have some similarities with the Torment demons as seen in the Stygian Veil, which start out skeletal and grow musculature from there. The Stygian demons don't appear to need fleshreaving to achieve their full growth, but it does seem as if "skeleton first and then add flesh" has some precedent among Mist creatures.

  • @Tamias.7059 said:
    Also, I think you might be exaggerating the distance between the Heart of the Shiverpeaks and the charr homelands. It's right near the Central Transfer Chamber, which is somewhere between the Shiverpeaks and Ascalon. The presence of fleshreavers in the Heart of the Shiverpeaks is most easily explained from the piece of trivia on GWW (from which most of the above information comes from) that says, "The first level in [Rragar's Menagerie] includes the entire last level of Heart of the Shiverpeaks as part of its map".

    Drax covered the breeding part for me, but for the distance: an asura gate leading to the Heart of the Shiverpeaks is "right near the Central Transfer Chamber" (though not technically as it's right next to the zone exit which is the whole Destructions' Depths + an asura gate distance).

    The actual location of the dungeon, where the little icon is on the world map, is pretty much directly inbetween Slavers' Exile and Boreas Pass.

    Also, about the trivia: we see every dungeon map being reused multiple times, with many overlaps of which segments are being used - there's only about 4 or so in total really - but none of them share foes, ever. Rather than that trivia being an answer, it is a "curious coincidence". Vlox's Excavations and Slavers' Exile both utilize that same level, IIRC, and almost in full as well.

    All these squares make a circle.
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  • Assic.2746Assic.2746 Member ✭✭✭

    @SlateSloan.3654 said:
    in the north of the swamp in queensdale are these npc at a table. if you talk to one of them it opens up a big green portal and usually a veteran boss comes out there. did anyone check what happens now if you activate it? cant do it myself as i had no time today and need to get up early.

    Scholar Taryn talks about the book she found. If you wish to continue the talk with her a portal to the Underwold will open and a flesh reaver will spawn.

    I've been translating this book I found. It's the story of one woman's attempt to enter the Underworld. This part is interesting. "Finally. After months, I've perfected my ritual. I've written it in blood, just as the necromancers would. I've hesitated for three days now. I don't know what I'll find. I tried to open a window, but I couldn't see in. I opened the door at dawn, but I couldn't pass through, nor could I see in. Night is coming, and now, I can't close the door again."

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scholar_Taryn

  • Squee.7829Squee.7829 Member ✭✭✭

    That book and that event have always been there. And as of earlier today, there haven't been any changes to it. At least not that I noticed. It's not like it's an event I do often or anything. But none of it seemed relevant to these new corpses, regardless. And it all lines up with the wiki.

  • Ayakaru.6583Ayakaru.6583 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 14, 2017

    @Warlord.9082 said:
    I think we are talking about The Countess of Hakewood here (https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Countess_of_Hakewood). She is from D.S. (D'Alessio Seaboard), she's a Halloween character, she wears red. Also, a quote from the mission "An Ingenious Plan" that she gives: "The time draws near. Can you feel it? The seals that divide this world from our realm grow weaker".

    I don't think this works because it's actually d'Alessio Seaboard, capitalizing the 'd' doesn't make it part of the name, its a prefix just like 'van, from, of, the, le, etc'

    To defeat the dragons, see the good in them.
    Zhaitan reunites lost ones, primordus creates fertile land, mordremoth spreads the green, and jormag..
    ..jormag? Who's that?

  • In the north east of Kessex Hills, there is an event where you follow a creepy gravekeeper into a cave/tomb place, then he summons some fleshreavers and attacks you. The area has a lot of underworld portals and shades and aatxes. The event itself has been around a while, but I noticed that, when the gravekeeper attacks, a strange red symbol appears on the ground in the crypt. It looks like an orb with lines or tendrils coming from it, it can show up in slightly different places, and it disappears as soon as the event is over (all enemies dead). I don't really know if this is new, but I've done the event a few times in the past and don't remember the red symbol showing up, plus the wiki didn't say anything about it. Just wondering if this might have to do with anything, or if it's been there the whole time.

    P.S. I've done the event twice since the Dead Bodies were discovered and both times the symbol appeared, just in slightly different places. I was on my Sylvari necro, and I had already checked out the two bodies, in case any of that matters.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • @Oenanthe.6549 said:
    Has anyone checked out the area with the portals in Kessex Hills, by the hero point?

    I hate to say this hype, but Red Lady, Scarlet?

    My first thought. Not going to get my hopes up but...

  • If it was Scarlet some people really dislike her and some people want her to return.

    However I doubt it's Scarlet I think we are mostly dealing with Dead Bodies and Dhuum who might make a return hopefully we might have one god around maybe.
    I don't mind dealing with Dhuum and we will see the whole Dhuum vs Grenth right?

  • has the crime scene in divinity reach under the grenth waypoint always been there? there are 4 seraph standing but no corpse around. the serap tell that they cant speak about it but recommend to keep the doors closed at night

  • Chorne.8195Chorne.8195 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm quite sure the seraph have been there for a while.

  • @SlateSloan.3654 said:
    has the crime scene in divinity reach under the grenth waypoint always been there? there are 4 seraph standing but no corpse around. the serap tell that they cant speak about it but recommend to keep the doors closed at night

    Yes, that's from the original launch. I think it's meant to be a reference about the street gangs such as seen in the chapter 1 human storylines like the Widowmakers.

    All these squares make a circle.
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  • I was curious and I decided to search, and i find this...... is it new ?
    https://imgur.com/a/uH8IU