Phantasm builds aren't fun anymore after playing a Clone Build

The two weeks of playing a mirage condi clone build was the most fun I've had on mesmer in a long time. Going back to a phantasm build has made me less interested in raiding overall and I find myself just being afk in the aerodome. And I was so excited to do wing 5. Now i'm not so much. I want to be able to play a clone build without feeling like I'm gimping myself and the group.

Fun Aspects of a clone build:

• Clones look just like me and wield my legendary weapons.
• Clones are easily generated so ramp up time is drastically decreased.
• The more flavorful weapon skills generate clones and could finally be used without hurting dps.
• Axe#3 is cooler in every way with 3 clones than it is with 3 phantasms for obvious reasons.
• Using 3 clones feels more fitting of mirage conceptually and in practice than do 3 phantasm set ups.
• Using the profession skills, Shatters, is far less punishing when using a clone build.

Someone posted earlier this week about clones dealing a reasonable amount of direct damage in early beta. I looked it up and found a video of it. It was great to see.It would be possible for a power build to also have a clone build variant just by tweaking the numbers of the damage clones are able to do.

Here are some reasons of why a Power Clone Build would be fun:

1. 3 sword clones all using ambush would be a great way to deal with breakbars in raids, and a lot of the new specs are lacking CC.
2. 3 Sword clones and myself all ambushing looks kitten awesome.
3. Dual swords is the optimal set up for a power build, so sword 3 and sword 4 will finally get some use regularly in combat.
4. That's a gain of 2 skills that wasn't wise to use before in high end pve.

5. 3 more versions of myself running around dual wielding Bolt and The Shining Blade is glorious. GLORIOUS!

Clones used to do more damage before and they can do more damage again. Currently, they do condition damage just as good as the mesmer, but that offers no benefits to power builds. The numbers only need to be tweaked to make a power clone build viable.

Some changes I think will help to make clone builds viable:

1. Phantasmal Fury - should be changed to Illusionary Fury. It should give all illusions fury. Empowered Illusions already affect all illusions.
2. Phantasmal Force - should be changed to increasing the damage to all illusions by 25%.
3. Persistence of Memory should be changed to give the mesmer boons from all illusions that are shattered.
4. Essentially, all phantasmal traits should be changed to illusions.

I think playing a clone build will be more fun for those of us that prefer clones. I don't foresee it making phantasm builds obsolete.Ideally, phantasmal builds should exist for people who prefer a simpler rotation and to have less buttons to press.Clone builds should, imo, be slightly more rewarding for having a few more buttons accessible.

This is will create more options for players as a whole. It's true that mesmers have quite a few builds to choose from already, maybe more than any other class. But this is more than a build, it's creating a new playstyle altogether.

P.S: Totally okay if clones only do increased damage in PvE, and not in PvP. I know PvP is a different beast and changes needed some deep thought before implemented there. In addition, it should be okay because clones already take 95% less damage in PvE, than they do in PvP. Having clones do more damage in PvE than they do in PvP will make sense.

TLDR: Power Mirage Clone Build. It will be fun. It will reinvigorate power mesmer and provide more utility to the mesmer and their raid group overall.

I'm sorry, but when it comes to max dps, the clone build is not what you think it is.

The clone build was / is a build that never uses shatters, phantasm or clone generators, only at the start of the fight.It even goes so far as to never use skills that temper with clone attacking like Axes of Symmetry, as it means less dps.

This build is not better than the phantasm-build - it's not even that different. The playstyle is virtually the same.

If you were to create a "Power Mirage Clone Build", it would probably be similar - if clones deal damage comparable to phantasms, it's better to just let them attack instead of shattering and creating new ones. This is the weird spot mesmer balance is in.

@"Bod.8261" said:I'm sorry, but when it comes to max dps, the clone build is not what you think it is.

The clone build was / is a build that never uses shatters, phantasm or clone generators, only at the start of the fight.It even goes so far as to never use skills that temper with clone attacking like Axes of Symmetry, as it means less dps.

This build is not better than the phantasm-build - it's not even that different. The playstyle is virtually the same.

If you were to create a "Power Mirage Clone Build", it would probably be similar - if clones deal damage comparable to phantasms, it's better to just let them attack instead of shattering and creating new ones. This is the weird spot mesmer balance is in.

This way I draw the conclusion: Mirage should have had shatters replaced with something else, probably something that would not destroy your clones (I'd say buffed ambushes should have been made Mirage's F1, for example), and Phantasms ought to be redesigned across the Mesmer profession as a whole.

Mirage was such a great opportunity to change the profession mechanics, but Anet somehow thought that, instead of replacing them, putting even more clutter (ambushes on dodge) on top of them was a better idea.They were close to creating a great elite spec, but they somewhat failed at it imo, and now we have what we have: a base mesmer with fancy-looking stuff and even more contradictory mechanics.

@"Bod.8261" said:I'm sorry, but when it comes to max dps, the clone build is not what you think it is.

The clone build was / is a build that never uses shatters, phantasm or clone generators, only at the start of the fight.It even goes so far as to never use skills that temper with clone attacking like Axes of Symmetry, as it means less dps.

This build is not better than the phantasm-build - it's not even that different. The playstyle is virtually the same.

If you were to create a "Power Mirage Clone Build", it would probably be similar - if clones deal damage comparable to phantasms, it's better to just let them attack instead of shattering and creating new ones. This is the weird spot mesmer balance is in.

This isn't exactly true. I ran condi clone mirage with axe/sword and axe/torch. A build in practice in raids isn't anything like doing benchmarks on a golem. That's also why power core mes was able to do outdps mirage on certain fights like VG and maybe Sloth. Because the benchmarks only shows the dps potential.

Sure if only look at the max dps potential, other skills aren't used cause they interrupt clones auto attack, but in a fight those skills do get used. On Deimos i was using my sword block. Before with a phantasm build, i probably would not use sword block because it was a much bigger loss for doing so. And I did shatter (diversion) on Samarog for every breakbar as needed without suffering the huge loss it would have been with a 3 phantasm build. And I did use axes of symmetry, for closing gaps and repositioning, or for whatever reason. I'm not saying these skills weren't lowering dps, of course they were, but these are necessary skills to use during an encounter to help survive and to help the group survive. But they were not a huge loss as it would have been with a phantasm build.

With a power clone mirage build, the effects of interrupting the clones and closing gaps with clones would be much less. Cause sword clones aren't necessarily relying on that third hit to double their damage cause they're focused on putting condis on the target. Messing up the auto chain would be a dps loss, but it would be less impactful. And sword ambush will easily close gaps, minimizing the distance clones need to travel to keep up with a moving target.

And for one of my proposed changes to better facilitate a clone build, is to have the trait that makes phantasams attack 20% faster apply to all illusions. So clones will complete their auto attack chain 20% faster making interrupting the chain less likely to happen. It will happen regardless, but to a much lesser extent.

and I agree that mesmer is in a weird spot. There is zero synergy between clones and phantasms and that leaves us with weapon skills that simply will never get used. But a clone bulid at least leaves us with less skills that won't get used. In a regular boss encounter, that sword block is getting used on deimos, that axes of sysmetry may get used on gors to kill adds faster, and sword 3 skill may get used ton soulless horror to "swap" positions across a wall. Golem benchmarks aare really just that, just benchmarks. It's not the same in practice.

@"Bod.8261" said:I'm sorry, but when it comes to max dps, the clone build is not what you think it is.

The clone build was / is a build that never uses shatters, phantasm or clone generators, only at the start of the fight.It even goes so far as to never use skills that temper with clone attacking like Axes of Symmetry, as it means less dps.

This build is not better than the phantasm-build - it's not even that different. The playstyle is virtually the same.

If you were to create a "Power Mirage Clone Build", it would probably be similar - if clones deal damage comparable to phantasms, it's better to just let them attack instead of shattering and creating new ones. This is the weird spot mesmer balance is in.

Nah that's not the point though. All things accounted for, clone build has one absolutely critical thing that phantasm build will always be a shit build for by comparison, even if it does result in higher DPS overall.

When it comes to ramp-up time, how long does it take a clone build to get up and running? About 2 seconds, and in that time you're hitting high damage components of your rotation. And if you have to use a shatter to help the group with CC, or save your own life, guess what, 2 seconds of time lost. Run out of range of the boss? 2 seconds. Didn't retarget your clones in time when the mobs died? 2 seconds. Need an AoE in a pinch? 2 seconds. Clones don't punish you very harshly for having to do things that aren't ideal, and in a raid setting you're likely going to encounter shit like that happening all the time.

Phantasm, on the other hand, is like tiptoeing over landmines. You stop your rotation entirely for 3 seconds to get 2 of those shits and a weakling up, then wait 15 seconds before you can actually start DPS'ing proper. So if you shatter for whatever reason, you're losing 18 seconds of time. If you run out of range, 18 seconds. Screw up phantasm targeting, 18 seconds. It is so stupidly punishing compared to any other spec.

Mirage is defined by deception, and part of that is how it empowers standard illusions to make them a threat again. That's how it is in PvP, and to an extent how it should be in PvE. It's the edge they can wield over standard mesmer, even if the rotation looks the same from a min-maxers perspective. That choice creates flexibility, and flexibility is necessary for the spec's survival, and that's why even if the clone spec needed a nerf, it should still edge out phantasm as a mirage. They can make phantasms great again with the next elite.

I'd have to agree with the OP. After having played a viable dps clone build, I feel like phantasm builds are shi% hole. Mirage clone builds a fast pace and engaging because u can focus on continuously attacking and just get the dodging right. And when your clones die you can quickly replace them. Chrono builds make phantasms a bit more bearable because of chronophantasma trait. But really underlying problem is still there, 1) phantasms die too easily, 2) hard to shatter witout losing DPS, 3) the dmg that the phantasm do is not high enough to compensate for the fact that they are hard to replace.

If clone builds atm do 30k dps, phantasm builds really need to do 50k, in an ideal situation, in order to compete. Because when it comes to a real fight phantasm build dmg will drop a lot because of its shitty design.

Phantasm builds have never been, and never will be fun. They need to stop being the optimal way to play this class.

I wish clones/shatter would always be the best :(

For some reason I always wondered why they didn’t have it so our clones mimicked everything our character has when it came to food and utility buffs. Makes it too easy to differentiate between the clone and the player.

I happen to like phantasm builds. B) B) B) B) B) B)

@dontlook.1823 said:I happen to like phantasm builds. B) B) B) B) B) B)

+1

@Syprus Soulslayer.1640 said:

@dontlook.1823 said:I happen to like phantasm builds. B) B) B) B) B) B)

I don't want phantasm builds to become obsolete. I'm not campaigning for phantasms to behave any differently than they already are. I'm just asking for clones to be changed and improved, by buffing the direct damage of clones and changing phantasm traits to affect both clones and phantasms.

@Hot Boy.7138 ^ This, although I've had plenty of success on my Hybrid Mirage out in WvW

I don't know what these guys are talking about @"Hot Boy.7138" "Phantasm" builds are crazy fun and yes... they do actually work. Maybe don't always spam shatters for dps???? Or read the traits in some of the trees and realize that having 3 illusions up might actually be a good thing.

Anyways, here you go

-Assorted outnumbered fights

-4man outnumbered

-solo 1

-solo 2 ( there is a repeat fight from umberglade with my rev buddy that got but into this by a mistake )

• Duo w/ Daredevil

• Assorted Red BL fights ( mostly 3 man outnumbered )

We all know having 3 illusions up is a good thing for damage. Just turns out that being able to summon those illusions more quickly, have them teleport with axe 3, have them trigger additional ambushes with infinite horizons, and not ruin your DPS every time you shatter makes clones quite a bit more fun than phantasms.I don't really see a single advantage in "fun" that phantasms have over clones. They're nearly identical in play, just slower, less responsive, and less versatile.

Phantasms should have been reworked long ago to never be shattered and last a set # of attacks, such that you'd only ever have maybe 1-2 out at once. Then rebalance damage numbers. Clones would be generated quickly, do very little damage, and be used for shatters (and it would always be a gain to shatter).

Saying "just don't use your shatters" is exactly the point. It's not fun not using your unique class mechanic. Choosing between some extra damage, dazes, or invuln would be an interesting choice. Choosing whether to shatter now with 1 or 2 clones or wait until 3 would be an interesting choice. "Don't ever shatter unless it's a dire emergency or the target is about to die" isn't fun. I remember years ago when warriors had a trait that mandated that they essentially never used their F1 skills because it was better dps to passively stay at max adrenaline. That was dumb too, and anet replaced that trait with one that encouraged the opposite.

The current mesmer design pretty much only works vs players or medium-low health mobs.

@"Bottles.2095" said:We all know having 3 illusions up is a good thing for damage. Just turns out that being able to summon those illusions more quickly, have them teleport with axe 3, have them trigger additional ambushes with infinite horizons, and not ruin your DPS every time you shatter makes clones quite a bit more fun than phantasms.I don't really see a single advantage in "fun" that phantasms have over clones. They're nearly identical in play, just slower, less responsive, and less versatile.

Ok, I hear what you're saying. Reworking the F skills to offer more attacks for our clones and a possible rework for phantasms would make mirage more interactive and dynamic. I can agree with that.There's not a real advantage to "fun" that phantasms have over clones. It's more or less my specific play style that's fun. I utilize clones and phantasms along with ambushes and combos. It's just different that the run of the mill builds that most people use.

@"Undertow.2389" said:Phantasms should have been reworked long ago to never be shattered and last a set # of attacks, such that you'd only ever have maybe 1-2 out at once. Then rebalance damage numbers. Clones would be generated quickly, do very little damage, and be used for shatters (and it would always be a gain to shatter).

Saying "just don't use your shatters" is exactly the point. It's not fun not using your unique class mechanic. Choosing between some extra damage, dazes, or invuln would be an interesting choice. Choosing whether to shatter now with 1 or 2 clones or wait until 3 would be an interesting choice. "Don't ever shatter unless it's a dire emergency or the target is about to die" isn't fun. I remember years ago when warriors had a trait that mandated that they essentially never used their F1 skills because it was better dps to passively stay at max adrenaline. That was dumb too, and anet replaced that trait with one that encouraged the opposite.

The current mesmer design pretty much only works vs players or medium-low health mobs.

FYI Clones, phantasms, and illusions in general are also a "Unique class mechanic". The difference is I utilize my shatters as a utility skill and not as a main or secondary source of damage. There's more than one way to play a class / build. Plus this promotes a more active playstle. Damage is broken down as follows1) player input / skill usage2)Phantasm attacks3)clone attacks / ambush4) utilities (Jaunt) and shatters

ehhh, take my comments with a grain of salt, please; as im pretty casual and not a neckbeard min/maxer... but, Fun, is subjective. What isn't fun to you, might be to someone else. Kinda like fashion.. whats stylish to me, might be ugly to you...

I personally main Mesmer cuz I like it... some people are alt-oholics, im a build-oholic... I switch between clone/phant heavy/not-so-heavy shatter builds all the time; and its fun for Me.

So, maybe play another class or shelf the game for awhile? ive taken several large breaks myself. just my 2c.

@leftharted.7102 said:ehhh, take my comments with a grain of salt, please; as im pretty casual and not a neckbeard min/maxer... but, Fun, is subjective. What isn't fun to you, might be to someone else. Kinda like fashion.. whats stylish to me, might be ugly to you...

I personally main Mesmer cuz I like it... some people are alt-oholics, im a build-oholic... I switch between clone/phant heavy/not-so-heavy shatter builds all the time; and its fun for Me.

So, maybe play another class or shelf the game for awhile? ive taken several large breaks myself. just my 2c.

Right on man, I can respect that. I just don't want newcomers to this game to be misled in thinking that Phantasm / clone or illusion builds don't work. You called me out on the min/maxing hahaha, I've always played this class different than most ( mained mesmer since launch with over 4600 hours logged ) and to be honest mirage has made my playstyle much more efficient and fun ( in my opinion ). I actually took a 2 year break from the game myself when HoT came out and only recently came back just before PoF came out. There's literally thousands of combinations for builds given all of the new gearsets, traits, utilities, and elite specializations. I highly doubt that every single conceivable combination has been tested or played.

I have a Mesmer Power Build and it has crazy fast clone spawn rates. I always have new clones going up and almost never have to wait over few seconds. I also have the shatter ammo skill in constant use.

You can see my build here: https://realitydecoded.blog/2018/08/03/guild-wars-2-glass-mesmer-power-build-with-extremly-heavy-damage-attacks/

Ahh yes, this was the post I made that I like to think influenced the devs to redesign mesmers.

Can you make one about the issues of SoI and boon sharing in GW2 in general, too? I want my raid boons to be done properly, like in basically every other MMORPG on the planet. :pensive:

correct me if I'm getting this right...... Mirage OP?

Buff Chrono, I want 4 dps in fractals. :P