Future alacrity nerf, what's the future for support renegade? [PVE]

So, it seems where getting nerfed by a measure to promote other classes providing alacrity instead of chrono?https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/378774/#Comment_378774

I think no one wants to run boon duration on its support renegade build. That way it loses personal damage, the only thing it can brag compared to a druid. Are they ever gonna make any balance changes to support this build?

I'm running a Harrier renegade, and this news sounds awesome. Now I can cap might, cap alacrity, and heal at the same time.

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:I'm running a Harrier renegade, and this news sounds awesome. Now I can cap might, cap alacrity, and heal at the same time.

Like I answered on the other thread. I'd LOVE using a renegade with full healer stats. But that's not gonna happen as long as the only thing they could brag about was personal damage compared to a condi druid. Druid does too many thing well: its heals are good enough, its buffs are better, its cc is better, and it can deal with mechanics by exploiting effects we cant because we're so limited in skillset.

Support renegade only makes sense as a hybrid between dps and healing in the current meta, so using harrier defeats this purpose.

Not allowed to have nice things.

@Akeno.4962 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:I'm running a Harrier renegade, and this news sounds awesome. Now I can cap might, cap alacrity, and heal at the same time.

Sure, if you only play optimized comps. Using Harrier seems to me IS a hybrid of DPS and healing ... what else would you use for a hybrid of DPS and healing?

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Akeno.4962 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:I'm running a Harrier renegade, and this news sounds awesome. Now I can cap might, cap alacrity, and heal at the same time.

Right now? Marshall and/or Viper. Because you get much more dps from condition stats that from power stats without any precision or ferocity. And yeah, I've been playing sub optimal builds for a very long time. But I'm tired of getting kicked of pugs or pugs not joining my groups. However, not thinking you can only play optimized builds must not hide from us the reality that there is a great imbalance among specs supposed to heal.

I have mostly Minstrel's that perhaps I'll eventually try converting to Harrier's, but it'll be interesting to see what the duration change for Natural Harmony is. I imagine at worst, it could get nerfed to 1.5 seconds so it's 3 seconds with 100% boon duration, but I hope it's not that severe. I am guessing between 2.0 and 2.5 seconds, which could bring it to 4-5 seconds with 100% boon duration. Really hope this means I can trait Lasting Legacy and still have 100% alacrity uptime! I may have to invest in a concentration sigil.

Prediction: alacrity will be removed from renegade while every other class gains access to it. Orders from above will be a button you use to burn energy in case you find yourself with too much.

What's funny to me is Mesmer is a meta class in every game mode. Yet its getting a major rework while some other classes remain irrelevant (irrevenant?).

@jimjam.5390 said:Prediction: alacrity will be removed from renegade while every other class gains access to it. Orders from above will be a button you use to burn energy in case you find yourself with too much.

What's funny to me is Mesmer is a meta class in every game mode. Yet its getting a major rework while some other classes remain irrelevant (irrevenant?).

Dps Revenant in pve is in its better spot ever. Renegade, simply isn't a pvp/wvw spec, like scrapper (was) and spellbreaker are. I don't like specific mode specs: you're waiting 2 years for a spec you're not gonna play.

However, i would be interested in losing alacrity if that meant getting another powerful buff like those druid has.

@Akeno.4962 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Akeno.4962 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:I'm running a Harrier renegade, and this news sounds awesome. Now I can cap might, cap alacrity, and heal at the same time.

Yes there is an inbalance but if you think that's a reason for Anet to do something about it, you haven't been paying attention to the game history ... there has been a damage inbalance that Anet hasn't done anything about for MUCH longer than a healing one. Still, if the change to alacrity is enticing, and we know it will be, Harrier could be a worthy prefix to consider, even if it's not optimal.

@Akeno.4962 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Akeno.4962 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:I'm running a Harrier renegade, and this news sounds awesome. Now I can cap might, cap alacrity, and heal at the same time.

SERAPH would be a good choice..

@MicROpart.7905 said:

@Akeno.4962 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Akeno.4962 said:

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:I'm running a Harrier renegade, and this news sounds awesome. Now I can cap might, cap alacrity, and heal at the same time.

You can actually make a solid single condi setup using seraph gear and krait runes to camp Shortbow. It pulls about 15k DPS or so and heals for WAY more than a condi druid does.

@Knox.8962 said:

@MicROpart.7905 said:

@Akeno.4962 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Akeno.4962 said:

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:I'm running a Harrier renegade, and this news sounds awesome. Now I can cap might, cap alacrity, and heal at the same time.

I guess you went with a few Viper spots amd Koi cale to get a 75% bleed duration? Is the condi druid build your talking about the same as the one on Snow Crow's site?

Anyways, I would think about running boon duration stat on my builds ... it simply depends on the scaling of the duration. It's not too hard to get decent increases if you want to mix stat prefixes

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Knox.8962 said:

@MicROpart.7905 said:

@Akeno.4962 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Akeno.4962 said:

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:I'm running a Harrier renegade, and this news sounds awesome. Now I can cap might, cap alacrity, and heal at the same time.

It's okay, just run Renegade with Herald for all the extra boon duration....sigh.

This won't be fixed by mixing. Seraph and Vigilant are just lowering Viper stats in favour of Giver's. And we didn't need the extra healing to begin with.

We need to get condi Druids to run more damage similarly to how we got Chronos to drop WoR for WoC or we well be swapped out for DPS and heal Druid. And this all relies on new Mesmer being unable to easily perma.

Edit:

Yes there is an inbalance but if you think that's a reason for Anet to do something about it, you haven't been paying attention to the game history ... there has been a damage inbalance that Anet hasn't done anything about for MUCH longer than a healing one.

There was a healing and damage imbalance since beta because of class design. Sure everyone got some personal option for those roles so they could say there was no trinity but it was clear that the aptitudes were different.

I think you miss my point ... if equivalent performance isn't Anet's goal, then the inbalance is a consequence, not a mistake, of how the classes are designed. This is not an opinion either; it's evident based on the way the classes in the game are realized. "inbalance" is rampant, which makes me believe that Anet makes no attempt to ensure there are balance between heal/damage or classes to begin with.

@Obtena.7952 said:I think you miss my point ... if equivalent performance isn't Anet's goal, then the inbalance is a consequence, not a mistake, of how the classes are designed. This is not an opinion either; it's evident based on the way the classes in the game are realized.

I don't disagree. But to say the damage imbalance has been around MUCH longer is inaccurate. There was always a healing imbalance. Druid and Ventari are merely niches Guardian and Ele haven't covered. For Rev the consequence was also literal. A class with an energy mechanic, and two halves, that is never at equilibrium. We will never be the best at any role, but we might be the longest.

So instead of trying to replace others why don't we acknowledge our filler potential and try to be the best support to the supports. We should build so Druid and Chrono can provide more dps and less healing/might/alacrity. Build so Heal Druid is unnecessary and Condi Druid + Support Renegade is optimal.

Don't build to replace them. That only works for Hand Kiting.

Honestly it's hard to tell...Because Signet of Inspiration also gets more powerful now that Alacrity is a boon.If boon skills worked with 10 targets, you could have less dependence on double mesmers and druids.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I think you miss my point ... if equivalent performance isn't Anet's goal, then the inbalance is a consequence, not a mistake, of how the classes are designed. This is not an opinion either; it's evident based on the way the classes in the game are realized.

But the game isn't designed that way. The meta is not planned by Anet so that Heal Druid is supreme and Condi Druid + Support Renegade isn't optimal. Anet simply creates encounters, ensures we have the tools to solve them and lets players determine what path they take to do so. People that complain about how a change affects the usefullness of their class have to get their head correctly around the fact that GW2 is not a traditional MMO, so the idea that all the sudden their class changes isn't actually all that big deal.

Future Alacrity nerf? Until it's actually IN the game and people can play it ... they should just calm the down.

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I think you miss my point ... if equivalent performance isn't Anet's goal, then the inbalance is a consequence, not a mistake, of how the classes are designed. This is not an opinion either; it's evident based on the way the classes in the game are realized.

Make up your mind. Either the tools are evenly distributed or they aren't. And if they aren't, every time Anet makes an encounter they decide a meta. Until we can go Ventari/Ventari or they make more Hand Kiting niches, pretending like Druid wasn't designed for supremacy is naive.

Rev is a filler class, that much is evident. That the tools it brings. To bring part of what's required so the big boys can get the job done faster.

?? I don't know what you're talking about if you're accusing me of making up my mind. Anet doesn't plan the meta PERIOD. The meta is determined by players that want to solve encounters optimally. Most things in this game are filler ... because there is usually only a couple of combinations of builds/comps that are optimal to solve a given situation. Therefore, 'filler' doesn't mean much when arguing for change. I'm not arguing that Druid isn't designed to be a powerful healer or not .. it's irrevelant to the discussion; there is ALWAYS going to be a 'best' at something in a game where combinations of classes/builds can be optimized to solve encounter problems. There isn't any reasonable logic to complain about that or claim there is something wrong with it.

@Obtena.7952 said:?? I don't know what you're talking about if you're accusing me of making up my mind. Anet doesn't plan the meta PERIOD. The meta is determined by players that want to solve encounters optimally. Most things in this game are filler ... because there is usually only a couple of combinations of builds/comps that are optimal to solve a given situation. Therefore, 'filler' doesn't mean much when arguing for change. I'm not arguing that Druid isn't designed to be a powerful healer or not .. it's irrevelant to the discussion; there is ALWAYS going to be a 'best' at something in a game where combinations of classes/builds can be optimized to solve encounter problems. There isn't any reasonable logic to complain about that or claim there is something wrong with it.

So you think the constant targeted nerfs and buffs for builds/classes based on their raid performance and benchmarks is a coincidence? You think PoF delivering quickness and alacrity specs after the HoT meta gravitaded around these buffs was a coincidence? You think removing GotL was for any other reason other than shaking the raid meta? 10-man spirits/banners, inspiring distortion rework, countless examples.

Anet might not be doing a good job at it, but pve is being balanced around raids ever since those launched. You have a point that roles are not an official/enforced part of the game, the same it is for other MMO, but after the dust settled with the first wing and devs saw what organized pve looked like, they have been balancing and designing specs with only that in mind.

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:?? I don't know what you're talking about if you're accusing me of making up my mind. Anet doesn't plan the meta PERIOD. The meta is determined by players that want to solve encounters optimally. Most things in this game are filler ... because there is usually only a couple of combinations of builds/comps that are optimal to solve a given situation. Therefore, 'filler' doesn't mean much when arguing for change. I'm not arguing that Druid isn't designed to be a powerful healer or not .. it's irrevelant to the discussion; there is ALWAYS going to be a 'best' at something in a game where combinations of classes/builds can be optimized to solve encounter problems. There isn't any reasonable logic to complain about that or claim there is something wrong with it.

Stop you there ... you think Anet are changing class tools because of raid performance and benchmarks RELATIVE to other classes so it's equivalent? Consider the following:

Their isn't a reality where Anet is performance balancing classes based on raid performance and such a large difference between class performance can exist, especially after years and numerous balance patches. Those two things are contradictions. I know that the large difference between class performance does exist; so does everyone else ... so there is only one explanation; Anet does not performance balance classes based on raids.

But wait ... I know your going to tell me they are working on it and they still are trying to get there. In that case, it doesn't matter anyways because the timescale to achieve balance is SO much longer than the timescale of other changes to the game, so any attempt to performance balance any particular state of the game is a waste of time.

@Obtena.7952 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:?? I don't know what you're talking about if you're accusing me of making up my mind. Anet doesn't plan the meta PERIOD. The meta is determined by players that want to solve encounters optimally. Most things in this game are filler ... because there is usually only a couple of combinations of builds/comps that are optimal to solve a given situation. Therefore, 'filler' doesn't mean much when arguing for change. I'm not arguing that Druid isn't designed to be a powerful healer or not .. it's irrevelant to the discussion; there is ALWAYS going to be a 'best' at something in a game where combinations of classes/builds can be optimized to solve encounter problems. There isn't any reasonable logic to complain about that or claim there is something wrong with it.

Supports haven't been included in the balancing routine during the whole HoT era, because there were no alternatives. Ventari was the closest thing, and they made a flimsy attempt to give it some alacrity, but ultimately dropped it as they knew what they were working on with the PoF specs. Any changes to druid and chrono were for the general health of the game.

But dps builds have been constantly being balanced around raid benchmarks. Pick any overperforming benchmark in the last 2 years and check how long it took for them to nerf it. Burnzerker, a bunch of different tempest builds, condi DD, firebrand, mirage. \

And now that PoF launched 2 new supports, they have made several attempts at nerfing chrono and druid. Of course, if you ask me, they were stupid to launch firebrand and renegade in that state to begin with, but whatever.

And how about all the other examples? Do you think the spirit and banner 10-man changes (and GotL before that) could possibly be for any other reason that to counter the mirror meta that everyone was complaining about?

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:?? I don't know what you're talking about if you're accusing me of making up my mind. Anet doesn't plan the meta PERIOD. The meta is determined by players that want to solve encounters optimally. Most things in this game are filler ... because there is usually only a couple of combinations of builds/comps that are optimal to solve a given situation. Therefore, 'filler' doesn't mean much when arguing for change. I'm not arguing that Druid isn't designed to be a powerful healer or not .. it's irrevelant to the discussion; there is ALWAYS going to be a 'best' at something in a game where combinations of classes/builds can be optimized to solve encounter problems. There isn't any reasonable logic to complain about that or claim there is something wrong with it.

I read what you are saying but the fact remains that there is a significant contradiction between the reality of the game and any idea of performance being balanced if you believe that Anet is performance balancing classes according to raids. The range of performance is much to large to even begin to think Anet are making progress to doing this. Your examples don't do anything to address that contradiction; yes Anet has made changes ... and the gap in performance is still very large.

Regardless of what you want to believe, the game will still persist for a VERY long time in a state where we don't have performance equivalence among classes and their builds. What does that mean for Support Renegade? It means Renegade might have an opportunity to be 'in' meta ... who doesn't like Alacrity? If Alacrity was your 'in' to the meta, why wouldn't you want to make a build that gives you the best alacrity uptime possible? This is why I like the change ... because as a player, I can consider how to make Alacrity a focus on a build or not.

@Obtena.7952 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:?? I don't know what you're talking about if you're accusing me of making up my mind. Anet doesn't plan the meta PERIOD. The meta is determined by players that want to solve encounters optimally. Most things in this game are filler ... because there is usually only a couple of combinations of builds/comps that are optimal to solve a given situation. Therefore, 'filler' doesn't mean much when arguing for change. I'm not arguing that Druid isn't designed to be a powerful healer or not .. it's irrevelant to the discussion; there is ALWAYS going to be a 'best' at something in a game where combinations of classes/builds can be optimized to solve encounter problems. There isn't any reasonable logic to complain about that or claim there is something wrong with it.

But you don't give any examples. What's that "gap" in performance?

Nobody is saying that any build is at an equal standing here, and no something like power Reaper being bad doesn't prove anything. Anet's priority was giving each class a good enough dps build, and for the largest part, that goal was achieved. Some classes have more options, being able to fulfil a support role as well as a dps one, or Guardian having both a power and a condi build, but every class can have a spot in raids.

I could sort of agree with you if your argument was that's it's too little and/or too late, but saying that anet completely ignores the raid meta is as baseless as it gets. And no, Renegade won't become meta if you put all your heart into it, but only if the super overloaded chrono and druid get their much deserved nerfs.