Necro raid fix - simple idea.

Few want to read walls of text, so i'll keep it brief.Corrupter's fervor now also stacking a debuff that lets vulnerability go over the cap.

Corrupter's Fervor - now also stacks a debuff on enemy you condition. Each stack raises vulnerability cap by 1. Max 10 stacks, 8s duration per stack.

What it means that 25% extra damage can be changed to 35% extra damage, which means raid-wide 8% dps boost (be it power or condi).Since it's in Death Magic, Necro himself won't get OP damage, but he will bring viable damage option to his squad.

And since we're in Death Magic anyway:Deadly Strength - no more of that 7/14% conversion based on non-shroud/shroud. Just plain honest 14% toughness to power always, like everyone else.

Last time i checked power necro is still underperforming, so why not cut him some slack?

I really like the whole idea behind your first suggestion! Raising caps on Vulnerability (or even on other condis/boons) really gives you an edge, and would make the Necro important again. But like all other (class-)specific advantages, it should not be Necro only . That would only create another BS or Druid or Chrono kind of mandatory profession (which I'm completely against!). You should also give it to e.g.: Deadeye or something (but less accessible for instance).But again, the whole idea, is actually really good, IMO!

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

Corrupter's Fervor - now also stacks a debuff on enemy you condition. Each stack raises vulnerability cap by 1. Max 10 stacks, 8s duration per stack.

What it means that 25% extra damage can be changed to 35% extra damage, which means raid-wide 8% dps boost (be it power or condi).Since it's in Death Magic, Necro himself won't get OP damage, but he will bring viable damage option to his squad.

This idea does have potential, but the problem is that it'd make necro the next bannerslave. I think that giving any class such a potent, raid-wide buff is going to make them preferred for the worst reasons -- it's why players have such a love-hate relationship with warrior in PvE. After the patch, banner-less Spellbreaker is benchmarking semi-decent, and people are chomping at the bit to try it out and scrap their banners.

If necros could increase the vulnerability cap, it'd be the ONLY real reason to bring them along besides for epidemic-bouncing (which is only good in a handful of fights). It would be such a significant raid-wide buff that it'd be dumb to not take a necro along; in the same way its been dumb not to take a chrono/bannerslave along. Also, depending on whether or not its a split PvP skill (yeah, right), people will start whining about how 35 stacks of vuln is ridiculous in PvP/WvW scenarios (especially when focus-targeting).

I would love my necro to provide more damage in some form besides epidemic, but I think that messing with the vulnerability cap would make more problems than it solves and ignores the underlying reasons Necro is underpowered in the first place.

Nice idea, but that would mean that the necro could make some damage, and this we all know will never happen again.

@Galmac.4680 said:Nice idea, but that would mean that the necro could make some damage, and this we all know will never happen again.

i think that anet is pretty ok with the necro having sub par damage than every other class in the game at this point. Even thieves can do more sustained damage than necro

@Lexan.5930 said:

@Galmac.4680 said:Nice idea, but that would mean that the necro could make some damage, and this we all know will never happen again.

Thieves can do more sustained damage by auto attacking. That is the sad reality of it.

Can someone summon a Dev here? We need an explanation HOW THE KITTEN NECRO IS MEANT TO BE PLAYED IN CURRENT GAME STATE and HOW IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE COMPETITIVE IN PVE ENVIROMENT. Maybe there is some hidden synergy no one knows about, because its not stated in any trait/skill tooltip? I really want to know how i should for example support with my scourge. Deadeye have more support capabilities than it. Or how exactly reaper should behave? Or maybe this class is only for lols and trolling? TELL US.

Dev's are alive, that's why no necromancer can summon them...

Joke aside, the necromancer is meant to continue to corrupt boons on PvP/WvW players. The necromancers tools are not adaptedd to PvE so there is no point in even wondering how it could competitive here.

The idea of the op is good yet toxic for the game as a whole.

@Dadnir.5038 said:Dev's are alive, that's why no necromancer can summon them...

Joke aside, the necromancer is meant to continue to corrupt boons on PvP/WvW players. The necromancers tools are not adaptedd to PvE so there is no point in even wondering how it could competitive here.

The idea of the op is good yet toxic for the game as a whole.

Thats not a very good excuse considering devs have found ways to make other professions who also excell in Pvp and WvW work in PvE very well. Litterally making vampuric aura leech a % of strike damage with no icd or very little icd depending on the leech % could instantly make them wanted in end game pve. This lets them keep their role as being an offensive supporter if they done it this way.

Necro in general has average aoe dps in both power and condi builds while raid require high single target dps. Increasing dps for necro in either build would make the class too op in all game mode. A a special debuff will fit the necro theme nicely.Another way to improve it is increasing minion dmg, or at least scale it with either power or toughness since condi already scale up with condi dmg and duration.With barrier and high regeneration ability, maybe change 1 trait in death magic that gain some kind of block like distortion every time a minion die (oc with cd). It would provide necro the ability to tank or kite.I don't like the idea that one class/build become mandatory in certain game mode like chrono or druid. There should be some flexibility for the fun.

I don't understand how guys do not know that golem dps is not real dps. Scourge goes up with additional life force as well as movement due to torment ticks and dps consistency with shades. Golem dps is like saying you are a mage trying to cast spells with no mana, that's your minimal dps. Your dps is perfectly fine as long as you are not trying to compare to weavers. It is also why Reapers used to be bench average dps but it is considered poor because real raid situation is completely different from golem grinding.

@"Warscythes.9307" said:I don't understand how guys do not know that golem dps is not real dps. Scourge goes up with additional life force as well as movement due to torment ticks and dps consistency with shades. Golem dps is like saying you are a mage trying to cast spells with no mana, that's your minimal dps. Your dps is perfectly fine as long as you are not trying to compare to weavers. It is also why Reapers used to be bench average dps but it is considered poor because real raid situation is completely different from golem grinding.

While i wholly agree with initial statement, the end result is even worst for necro.Torment may deal more on moving targets, but moving targets are bane of shades. There's only so many shade casts you got before shade recharge catches up with you. So you'll either go Sand Savant, losing demonic lore's dps to catch up with moving boss better, or gamble with much harder to land default shade + demonic lore.

Even bigger kick in the nuts is the hidden damage of other professions - like renegade's razorclaw's rage, guard's virtue of justice (be it core or firebrand), warrior banner effects, thief's venoms etc.These guys have some nasty extra damage options for their party, meanwhile we got.....new and improved vampiric.

Not to mention current necro balance seems to follow "let's make all necro specs equally shitty and call it a day"

Core - worst dps of all core professions, it's not even on the fucking charts. Plus 2012 deathshroud...Reaper - let's gut his condi, add dps that still isn't up to par and best of all butcher it's shroud with insanely high life force degen. Enjoy your 5 seconds of reaper shroud!Scourge - let's butcher his cleanses via shades, cause who heard of necro having reliable, non random party condi cleanses? But at the very least, unlike before barriers are a real and meaningful support mechanic...

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

@"Warscythes.9307" said:I don't understand how guys do not know that golem dps is not real dps. Scourge goes up with additional life force as well as movement due to torment ticks and dps consistency with shades. Golem dps is like saying you are a mage trying to cast spells with no mana, that's your minimal dps. Your dps is perfectly fine as long as you are not trying to compare to weavers. It is also why Reapers used to be bench average dps but it is considered poor because real raid situation is completely different from golem grinding.

You count as a shade yourself. So all you do in raid is run at the boss in melee range and spam shade to proc your trait; boss movement in general is very good for necro percisely because of that reason. Many classes will lose dps such as weaver or dh due to depending on ground duration aoe while you do not have this problem at all. All you worry about is when to place plaguelands every so often. Group support? You have barrier; it is literally part of your rotation to use your heal on cd and provide barrier and it is incredibly good when you do need it.

Please at least try to play necro in raids first before posting things like this. Just reading golem dps and patch notes is not the same as playing in raids. The nerf of condi removal for example? That's actually likely a very very tiny dps increase for scourge because now you have more chance of transferring condis over instead of cleansing them. 99% of the time you never actually use f2 as condi cleanse more than 1 condi when you should be using it as damage instead assuming you have enough life force to sustain desert shroud.

@Warscythes.9307 said:I don't understand how guys do not know that golem dps is not real dps. Scourge goes up with additional life force as well as movement due to torment ticks and dps consistency with shades. Golem dps is like saying you are a mage trying to cast spells with no mana, that's your minimal dps. Your dps is perfectly fine as long as you are not trying to compare to weavers. It is also why Reapers used to be bench average dps but it is considered poor because real raid situation is completely different from golem grinding.

Nope. You need the enemy to stand on one spot to do nearly same dps as against golem.

And it actually feels like necro is a mage with no mana. I guess you never played necro in a raid?

Sure you can do absurd numbers of dps. But only against groups of enemys. And guess what. A raidboss isnt a group.You need si gle target dps. Every other class doesn enough ae dmg while still doing way more single target dps than necro, to kill all the adds that spawn.If necro was good in raids. Everyone would play it.

I dont know why i do less dps in raids on moving bosses, than i do on a standing golem, with the same buffs.Maybe it has something to do, with how bosses move. They just have their own head and sometimes better attack than following the tank, resulting in missing your aes, u placed in the movement path of the boss.

@Warscythes.9307 said:

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

@Warscythes.9307 said:I don't understand how guys do not know that golem dps is not real dps. Scourge goes up with additional life force as well as movement due to torment ticks and dps consistency with shades. Golem dps is like saying you are a mage trying to cast spells with no mana, that's your minimal dps. Your dps is perfectly fine as long as you are not trying to compare to weavers. It is also why Reapers used to be bench average dps but it is considered poor because real raid situation is completely different from golem grinding.

My apologies, my mistake. I haven't raided in a while indeed and in PvE I play support healer/condi scourge, so by default i stay in backline to pull downed ppl away from the mob and not into it. That was my obvious bad, forgot necro is the 4th shade for purposes of bossing.

Condies pulled and transferred may a be slight damage upgrade indeed, but as support scourge i'm disgusted. The Nefarious Favor nerf should not have gotten into PvE where scourge's healer's role was finally becoming somewhat viable with strong, non decaying barriers, and no one was getting screwed over by a quick, reliable condi cleanse.

More over, even in PvE they overdid with the nerfing. Making shades have a delay, much like engis bombs from bomb kit is a good, and smart solution. There was no need to go gang-ho with multile other nerfs, like cooldown nerf, condi cleansed nerf (especially that one) and boon corrupted nerf with path of corruption.

This monster boon corruption needed some taming in competitive, but they freaking overkilled it from every angle...

double post, sorry

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Warscythes.9307 said:I don't understand how guys do not know that golem dps is not real dps. Scourge goes up with additional life force as well as movement due to torment ticks and dps consistency with shades. Golem dps is like saying you are a mage trying to cast spells with no mana, that's your minimal dps. Your dps is perfectly fine as long as you are not trying to compare to weavers. It is also why Reapers used to be bench average dps but it is considered poor because real raid situation is completely different from golem grinding.

Of course you need the enemy stand still to do nearly the same dps because moving bosses imply you will not get the same amount of boons. You sometimes miss out on chrono wells, sometimes there's disconnect due to mechanic shift so you will have a couple seconds of boon lapse because your druid need to get back to CA and your chrono need to do their boon rotation again. Vul might drop for a bit before they are applied again. A real boss fight is not the same thing as a golem test.

The fact you do not understand this makes me think you are the one who doesn't raid. I am by no means an elite raider but I have demon's demise and do weekly clears on Dhuum which hopefully should be enough to convince you a bit. Also yes all I play is necro in raids with a few exceptions when my group needs a fill. Scourge LF use in raid is literally just F5 and that is it. You can sustain it infinitely with 0 outside LF gain. You will only have problems if you try to press any other buttons in conjunction which you should not do unless there's outside force LF gain.

Necro single target dps is fine for the reasons I stated above. The 30.4k single target dps is the base dps you would do without any LF gain or torment bonus damage on a golem test. That is around 1.8k below a DH which is commonly accepted as a dps. Any fight with additional life force or even any sort of movement or range requirement gives scourge enough boost to be enough to be average.

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

No worries about the misunderstanding. Yes I agree the F2 nerf is not needed in PvE, however you do have to realize that every single discussion about how necro is bad in PvE is targeted directly at high end PvE. Necro is probably the strongest class in open world pve and any discussion about how necro doesn't do damage etc is not relevant at all in open world. So if you are trying to balance with open world in mind then I'd actually nerf the crap out of necros which of course would be silly.

Support necro also is not a thing except in very very niche cases, specially places like VG no greens or carrying bad pugs through Sloth. It really is just a poor build in general compared to the general meta. It is ok to have some differences which is why weaver is not the only dps in the game when their dps is off the charts, but the gap between heal necro and heal renegade/druid/auramancer is wide enough that you wouldn't really take it anywhere. Boon corrupt in high end PvE also not a thing because it never is crucial enough unless is dhuum.

I think the biggest reason we are having this disconnect is that you are playing a support necro build in open world pve which is fine. However you believe all the complaints are about PvE in general when in fact it is targeted solely at end game PvE content. The balance/power level of necro is completely different between the two.

I think everyone discuss here has some experience with necro in raid and know the difference between raid and golem dps. So, can we have a constructive discussion without accusing others?

Necro in general is not useless in raid and pve. In fact it is one of the few classes can make raid smoother. Decent dps, some support, great aoe, and good survival allow necro to cover a lot of mechanic and carry the team. But when group become more experience and get used to mechanics, they aim for speed kill, which favor higher dps classes.

But, I don't think dps is the answer for necro. Our dps are fine and necro shouldn't be the top dps. I would like to see necro bring something different to the table than dps. At the moment, epi is that "something different " for necro. But not all the bosses fights need epi.

@Warscythes.9307 said:

No worries about the misunderstanding. Yes I agree the F2 nerf is not needed in PvE, however you do have to realize that every single discussion about how necro is bad in PvE is targeted directly at high end PvE. Necro is probably the strongest class in open world pve and any discussion about how necro doesn't do damage etc is not relevant at all in open world. So if you are trying to balance with open world in mind then I'd actually nerf the crap out of necros which of course would be silly.

Support necro also is not a thing except in very very niche cases, specially places like VG no greens or carrying bad pugs through Sloth. It really is just a poor build in general compared to the general meta. It is ok to have some differences which is why weaver is not the only dps in the game when their dps is off the charts, but the gap between heal necro and heal renegade/druid/auramancer is wide enough that you wouldn't really take it anywhere. Boon corrupt in high end PvE also not a thing because it never is crucial enough unless is dhuum.

I think the biggest reason we are having this disconnect is that you are playing a support necro build in open world pve which is fine. However you believe all the complaints are about PvE in general when in fact it is targeted solely at end game PvE content. The balance/power level of necro is completely different between the two.

Well i agree that atm support necro is still lacking to be up there with other healers. But that's something I'd like to see changed and addressed and not screwed over sideways by unnecessary nerf to scourge F2 which was outta whack due to traited boon corruption and not condi cleanse per se (since while on low cd, it had lf cost to it).

I also am very on board of a-net's initial vision of scourge - the healer of moderate heals, but big shields. Healers should be different and not all of them about just pumping bigger green numbers. In that he reminds me a lot of arcanist from FF XIV - a healer that needs to stay on top of his shields to succeed but in return ofers very good dps compared to classical white mage.

Problem is at the implementation is still limping and tripping over it's own legs. Our biggest heal - transfusion negates party protection cast (vampiric wells) and big condi remove (unholy martyr). Our reliable, simple party condi cleanse just got butchered. Vampiric aura had a buff, but it's not at the level where i feel i can rely on it to have whole team survive while transfusion is down. But...i theorize too much here. First i'll get some training and raid healer scourge experience, then talk.

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

@Warscythes.9307 said:

No worries about the misunderstanding. Yes I agree the F2 nerf is not needed in PvE, however you do have to realize that every single discussion about how necro is bad in PvE is targeted directly at high end PvE. Necro is probably the strongest class in open world pve and any discussion about how necro doesn't do damage etc is not relevant at all in open world. So if you are trying to balance with open world in mind then I'd actually nerf the crap out of necros which of course would be silly.

Support necro also is not a thing except in very very niche cases, specially places like VG no greens or carrying bad pugs through Sloth. It really is just a poor build in general compared to the general meta. It is ok to have some differences which is why weaver is not the only dps in the game when their dps is off the charts, but the gap between heal necro and heal renegade/druid/auramancer is wide enough that you wouldn't really take it anywhere. Boon corrupt in high end PvE also not a thing because it never is crucial enough unless is dhuum.

I think the biggest reason we are having this disconnect is that you are playing a support necro build in open world pve which is fine. However you believe all the complaints are about PvE in general when in fact it is targeted solely at end game PvE content. The balance/power level of necro is completely different between the two.

No you are not wrong, support necro needs quite a few of additional things for them to be considered viable. However I think that requires an actual concentrated effort to make it to the proper level which obviously is not the focus of the patch here considering mesmers is the one that had the big mechanic change. In which case I'd advocate for support necro buffs such as dagger 2 heal in an aoe or decrease cost on f4 only etc etc. Your topic brought discussion about dps which got me talking really because I really really dislike this false information about scourge dps. No is not great but it is good enough.

@"hemu.9027" said:I think everyone discuss here has some experience with necro in raid and know the difference between raid and golem dps. So, can we have a constructive discussion without accusing others?

Necro in general is not useless in raid and pve. In fact it is one of the few classes can make raid smoother. Decent dps, some support, great aoe, and good survival allow necro to cover a lot of mechanic and carry the team. But when group become more experience and get used to mechanics, they aim for speed kill, which favor higher dps classes.

But, I don't think dps is the answer for necro. Our dps are fine and necro shouldn't be the top dps. I would like to see necro bring something different to the table than dps. At the moment, epi is that "something different " for necro. But not all the bosses fights need epi.

I think is pretty clear that people are getting mixed up in their ideas of balance so I figure it would be important to understand exactly where the discussion talk is going.

Honestly though the answer was already posted. Having more unique buffs is not a good thing, otherwise you are going to end up with bannerslave 2.0. Current scourge offer enough quirks for it to not be a pure dps with barrier, condi cleanse and epi. It really doesn't need that much more. I'd say it is reaper that needs something to set it apart a bit other than having a lot of CC. Right now it is competing with holosmiths in terms of abilities offered except one is viable dps and one is not.

Agree on the unique buff. Since they move alac to boon, hope they will do something with banners and spirits in the future so less class become mandatory in raid. Condi is a lot more useful than power at the moment. I do hope they will work on minion or death magic in the future. I want to see necro as a class that can do mechanic across the map while still provide decent dps or a tank that do more damage instead of a tank that give boons like chrono at the moment. I'm fine with the current condi dps. Not interested in the dps race. But again, necro is not as bad as many people think. Just have a hard time to find a group that accept necro main.