Make Shadow Refuge great again

Hello,

Shadow Refuge use to be one of the very best utility skill for thieves. Unfortunately, it is now quite difficult to use because of all the AoE and CC spam introduced since HoT.

To make this cool ability worth again, I propose to make the zone pulse stealth, and no longer reveal you when you go out of it. The longer you stay in, the longer the stealth, and you get the health regen. Going out of it won't punish you that much but would give you less benefit from the skill.

That way, staying inside would still maximize its use, but we wouldn't be that vulnerable to AoE and CC in that red circle.

What do you think?

Yes, that's why a continuous stealth application via pulsing stealth would allow us to go out of the refuge anytime without being noticed and have a surprise factor.

People wouldn't know when we actually are inside or not, but staying there would still give give you more stealth and life regen.

No thx. It’s fine as is.

Make it reflect projectiles!/s but not /s

I do think it could be improved. The functionality behind it is great, but like you said it creates a giant "bomb here" sign and accidentally stepping out of bounds will ruin it.

Obviously the reason it reveals is because it heals and stacks stealth, so counter play is needed to interrupt such a powerful utility.

I think instead of revealing when moving outside the lines, it should keep the stealth but put an icon above the players head to show they are no longer receiving stacks of stealth from it. This would have same duration as revealed, so that way you still get a little stealth and enemies can knock you out and prevent more stacking for counterplay.

Get good as using it, then? Even with Black Powder, the signs are "bomb here."

It needs counterplay on some level. AoE is a problem but SR is still a damned strong ability and one of the more frustrating ones to play against.

Shadow Refuge would be actually a real great skill, if it would god darn do, what it is named for...

A refuge is something you go into to be protected from something, to hide yourself from something, with this back in mind, the most appropriate way how Shadow Refuge would do what it is named for would be an effect like this:

Create a area for a certain amount of time, which grants you or your allies Stealth when you enter it. So longer you stay inside the refuge, so better will it protect you from harm. Shadow Refuge lasts from the moment of creation on for 10 seconds and pulses every two seconds a protective effect, while granting on entering an effect and when leaving it an effect. Range/Radius increased to 900, giving you more room to move inside of itEntering Effect = Stealth for 10 seconds on first entering, 2 seconds on follow up enterings while the refuge is still there.Leaving Effect = Aegis or Barrier, whatever Anet thinks fitts better or is mor balanced.Boon on 2 Seconds = Vigor for as long you stay inside the RefugeBoon on 4 seconds = Regeneration for as long you stay inside the RefugeBoon on 6 seconds = Protection for as long you stay inside the RefugeBoon of 8 seconds = Stability for as long you stay inside the Refuge for its last two secondsBoon when the Refuge ends at second 10 and you are still inside of it = Resistance.

This way would become SHadow Refuge again a great group support skill, that would be much more, than just only a cheap lousy stealth skill which gets already outshined by the mobile perma group stealth of scrappersThis way becomes this skill also more rewsarding for outsustaining the dangerous situatiation inside of it, instead of just feeling outside of it, unless its absolutely neccessary if you think so, but staying the duration of it inside of it needs to become more rewarding.Plus i also agree with it, this stupid location reveal effect needs toi disappear..The skill animation should tell already more than enough a ksill player, that you used Shadow Refuge to disappear in front of your eyes, it should give then also on top of that a animation, which basically tells everybody "NUKE THIS SPOT" the moment you use the skill

Shadow Arts traits should improve this skill.

The Trait "Last Refuge" should get completely reworked into letting you use Shadow Refuge when your Health Threshold gets below 25 while reducing received Damage while being in Stealth and should activate as Skill also when you receive fall damage as lesser version that lasts only 6 seconds and grants stealth also only for 6 seconds.Additionally to this, this Trait should reduce the Cooldowns of Stealth Skill by 20% and be kind of merged with Resilience of Shadow", making the new Last Refuge this way the new Minor Grandmaster, giving this way the players a strogn reason more to use Shadow Arts in their build for having a stealthy build, that gives much more group support. Shadow Arts needs to become the Thieves number one choice, when it comes to Group Support, Self Sustain, Combat Control/Deceptions, Minion Gameplay (Shadow Doppelgangers, not lousy summoned Thieves that are kind of compared to other minions skills in this game by now the weakest and most useless of them all together with spiritual weapons and nature spirits - especially after anets total mesmer rework now...)

Concealed Defeat should get reworked and renamed not to grant smokescreens on defeats.. why to useless ands too situational to be worth takign this junk trait ever with you, unless you want faster recharging deceptions for what this trait is only useful. The trait should get renamed to "Deceived Sights" and should negate projectile damage when you are stealthed and should enable the Thief player to create more oftenly on demand Smokescreens, so that you can protect this way better your group from ranged attack spam by greatly reducing the recharge time of Smokescreen ,the utility skill and auto activating lesser smoke screens when using infiltrators Arrow at either your ground target, or at your position when using IA, whatever fits better, or feels like being more fun. This way woudl thieves receive more protective group support, makign them a very valuable group choice everywhere in th game where you can expect alot of ranged attacks to happen... which is especially in WvW the case ...,

With Shadow Refuge gettign overworked like proposed, are useless traits like Shadow Protector then also totally obsolete and can be removed to make space for better and generally more useful traits, than to pump this trait line full with so much bad stuff that helps you only very situationally, while beign otherwise not beign in such a fitting situation only a waste of a trait slot that does nothing for you. Shadow rejuvenation should get partically merged with Shadow Refuge, making this way Shadow Refuge especialyl for thieves a very lucrativde to use traits that gives among other fellow thieves then also group support by lettign thieves gain in Shadow Refuge fater initiative back with this change, and givign also there new space for a better new trait.

Thats how i would make Shadow Refuge again a real useful skill, that strenthens the thief's group support, making SR again the top class group stealth skill that is more powerful than any group stealth of other class, cause thieves are the masters of shadows, nobody else, they are specialized in stealth and this should be also reflectable visible in this game with their stalths beign the most effecttive and helpful group support, while the stealth of other classes shoudl be only selfish if at all.When you want group support stealth, then the firts choice should be always Thief, then maybe Mesmer, then Engineer, after that no other class shoudl have stealth, or in case of Ranger only selfish with no group support.

Stealth that comes from upgrades should get removed, so no stealth trappers anymore like stealthing DHs... or stealthing trapper rangers with more stealth than this class should ever have, especialyl as Druid which has also by itself the ability to stealth ...

With this much Aoe spam you have now in this game, its absolutely not frustrative anymore to play agaisnt thieves..all you need to do is spam your aoes away at the spot where SAR has been created and your chances are good, that you either forced the thieve to flee outside of it, or you eventually killed it while it was in its own refuge, because the skill is so much garbage, due to it protecting you not at all from all the damage the slightest bit, unless you dodge attacks and you use the trait that reduces received damage when beign stealthed and the one that periodically removes conditions when beign in stealth - but that are all traits, not the effect of SR itself , because SR alone doesn#t do these things.. SR alone is just only a stealth skill, which grants the longest stealth duration, but thats all and heals a tiny bit.. health, that is after 1 lousy hit of the enemy instantly lost egain ,so lousy is the healign of this skill, because healing power doesnt realyl greatly affect that skill alot...theres doing a few attacks with Signet of Malice much more effective, than healing yourself with SR and you are offensive while doign that, while you do nothing in the SR, cause the moment you do anythign in SR, you lose your stealth

You forget ,that ANet has already implemted hard counter skills into this game to give classes the feature of forcing thieves out of their stealth - and that also for a long time, enough to burst a thief easily into death, before they are able to stealth again, cause thieves - unless as deadeye - have no way to get rid of reveal like getting rid of a condition to counter the counter, the moment you are revealred, your helpless like a dry fish as thief and must rely yourself in that time on your dodges, blindness, weaskness and other forms of damage mitation you get get somehow.. enough time for any halfway good mesmer/scrouge to blast you with 1 shot into the smithereens if they happen to successfully burst you fully (critically) in this moment of time when you can't stealth

People can't deny it now anymore, that now where Anet has totally reworked the mesmer gameplay. that it is time now to not overlook anymore the gameplay weaknesses of the other classes as well and their outdated gameplay mechanics, which need to get reworked - this includes also thieves and their stealth

I would like it to give some defensive buffs on each pulse as mentioned in above posts, and also remove revealed on each pulse so if someone dares to come into the refuge to do melee range aoes, they get chain backstabbed to death. Ranged AOEs will still do damage from from range but reduced damage due to defensive buffs. Increase cd to match the power ofcourse.

SA does improve the skill, though. A lot.

It extends the duration from 15s to 20s and lets the thief take 25% less damage while in it and while affected by stealth. It works with rifle and the durations can be stacked.

SR and traited Kneel with SA = Kneelx2(8s) -> SR stealth (10s/20s) + Kneelx2(8s) + SR stealth (20s/20s) + Kneelx2(8s) = 44s of uninterrupted stealth on rifle DE. That's legit nuts.

Again this feels more like a L2P issue than it being weak. I run it on Deadeye all the time to stalk people so they don't outrun DJ range. You have 50% movespeed too from SA meaning you run faster than them while in combat if you hit them once prior. It's only not effective if you put it at your feet in melee/casting range of someone else. Know your foes and what they can do/if they have a counter up, and it's still an amazing skill.

You can always cast it away from you and shortbow 5 into it halfway through its cast if the AoE's are really that problematic. Out-think your opponent.

I Use SR as well in a DE build, both as a defensive measure and when where i set up my Mark for an attack especially one otherwise engaged,

SA adds significant utility to SR, especially if using rejuv or CIS. If one fights a daredevil thief as example, they will often port to you when they feel you in trouble and cleave after you use the SR. With CIS traited they will do minimal damage. The same is true of any class that cleaves or even those that drop AOE such as guardian traps. You can acttually kneel and set up your own shot and eat that damage. Hidden thief allows 20 seconds of +50 to movement speed.

Consider this in WvW. Rune of the scrapper for 7 percent less damage. One of the damage mitigation foods for 10 percent less damage. Shadows resilence for 25 percent less damage. Iron sight for 15 percent less damage. CIS for no crits while stealthed. All of these are acheived with relative ease. You then can get the 33 percent from protection when your Malice reaches full stacks. This latter not as common but all of this together a whole lot of mitigation. This while you can be shedding conditions via SE for some 20 seconds.

Make it so allies inside it are immune to cc.

@"DeceiverX.8361" said:Get good as using it, then? Even with Black Powder, the signs are "bomb here."

It needs counterplay on some level. AoE is a problem but SR is still a damned strong ability and one of the more frustrating ones to play against.

It's nothing like "get good", this utility is just not worth the slot compared to other tools we have at our disposal.

Black powder is a very bad comparison as it is used to stack stealth so you get away from it very fast...

SR isn't that strong, otherwise it would be used. It's been a veeeeey long time since I've seen anyone using it.

It really is, though. And it's the same with BP. BP lasts only one second less and all an enemy needs to do half the time is just stand in the field and the thief will reveal himself if trying to stack stealth. You're literally confined to the same radius with HS. It's a horrible waste to use only one leap through BP, too.

A majority of the time, people who complain about SR being too weak use it stupidly by dropping it in range of their enemy while not disabling them while they have major AoE's available off cooldown. Again, nobody is forcing you to drop it on top of yourself.

People haven't run it, especially with Daredevil, because it isn't necessary/meta since OH pistol + Bound already previously allowed for an excess of stealth OOC, and stealth wasn't super-used on staff. Even still, a number of top-end Daredevils did run the ability when solo roaming because it's still good for what it's designed for.

If you die in SR, especially if running SA, 9/10 times it was because you got outplayed. It's one of the single most powerful skills in the game of used properly. It's just not taken in sPvP because that much stealth is excessive and can't do anything for point capture, and the current meta favors S/D more than any stealth build due to Firebrand.

With DE on the rifle, it's a fantastic utility for the roaming stealth-assassin with a lot of potency, and it with SA is worth multiple weapon and utility skills combined from a whole pile of other professions.

@Orpheal.8263 said:Shadow Refuge would be actually a real great skill, if it would god darn do, what it is named for...

A refuge is something you go into to be protected from something, to hide yourself from something, with this back in mind, the most appropriate way how Shadow Refuge would do what it is named for would be an effect like this:

Create a area for a certain amount of time, which grants you or your allies Stealth when you enter it. So longer you stay inside the refuge, so better will it protect you from harm. Shadow Refuge lasts from the moment of creation on for 10 seconds and pulses every two seconds a protective effect, while granting on entering an effect and when leaving it an effect. Range/Radius increased to 900, giving you more room to move inside of itEntering Effect = Stealth for 10 seconds on first entering, 2 seconds on follow up enterings while the refuge is still there.Leaving Effect = Aegis or Barrier, whatever Anet thinks fitts better or is mor balanced.Boon on 2 Seconds = Vigor for as long you stay inside the RefugeBoon on 4 seconds = Regeneration for as long you stay inside the RefugeBoon on 6 seconds = Protection for as long you stay inside the RefugeBoon of 8 seconds = Stability for as long you stay inside the Refuge for its last two secondsBoon when the Refuge ends at second 10 and you are still inside of it = Resistance.

Feels a bit over kill. The main issue with SR is it's reveal on leaving the border, otherwise I think it would be a strong pick as is in PvP/WvW. For PvE/raid, mild boon application like this would make thief more desired for party support combined with the new shiny stolen skills.

SR will never be used in high-level sPvP as long as Firebrand, Bounding Dodge, and/or capture-and-hold points exist.It's been historically used a ton in WvW, especially before Daredevil.

It's not that the skill isn't strong, it's just that such extended stealth literally has no purpose for sPvP as a game mode. Good thieves can BP+Blinding+HS for enough stealth with shortbow 5 to cross most maps. Even sitting in SR for all its pulses isn't often worth it.

By removing the reveal-on-leave the skill just ends up with no counterplay for roaming opposition. It's really not hard to use successfully if you play smart. If you run SA, you pretty much don't need to even worry about leaving because you can basically tank most incoming damage save an entire zerg bombing the hell out of you.

If you drop it at the wrong place at the wrong time, and your opponent capitalizes, you deserve to be killed.

@DeceiverX.8361 said:If you drop it at the wrong place at the wrong time, and your opponent capitalizes, you deserve to be killed.

^ this all day long

The only change I think Shadow Refuge needs is not placing Revealed debuff on you if you step outside of it. If you aren't standing inside the shadow refuge, then you already aren't benefiting from it, there shouldn't be an additional punishment if you're only trying to get 3-6 seconds of stealth as you're running away from it.

make it pulse 1 second of protection and stability for each pulse and remove the healing, that would greatly improve it while not making the hidden people completely unkillable

1. Drop SR, go inside during last second
2. Drop SR, Shadowstep behind enemy and drop them

Its all about how to exploit what your opponents think you will do, however i'm all for buffing it.

@CreedOfGod.9764 said:

@Orpheal.8263 said:Shadow Refuge would be actually a real great skill, if it would god darn do, what it is named for...

A refuge is something you go into to be protected from something, to hide yourself from something, with this back in mind, the most appropriate way how Shadow Refuge would do what it is named for would be an effect like this:

Create a area for a certain amount of time, which grants you or your allies Stealth when you enter it. So longer you stay inside the refuge, so better will it protect you from harm. Shadow Refuge lasts from the moment of creation on for 10 seconds and pulses every two seconds a protective effect, while granting on entering an effect and when leaving it an effect. Range/Radius increased to 900, giving you more room to move inside of itEntering Effect = Stealth for 10 seconds on first entering, 2 seconds on follow up enterings while the refuge is still there.Leaving Effect = Aegis or Barrier, whatever Anet thinks fitts better or is mor balanced.Boon on 2 Seconds = Vigor for as long you stay inside the RefugeBoon on 4 seconds = Regeneration for as long you stay inside the RefugeBoon on 6 seconds = Protection for as long you stay inside the RefugeBoon of 8 seconds = Stability for as long you stay inside the Refuge for its last two secondsBoon when the Refuge ends at second 10 and you are still inside of it = Resistance.

Maybe, but the idea of that proposal is more, that SR should become a significant better group support skill and that it can't be under its current form, with a too small radius, losing the stealth on leave, even if you stood already several seconds inside, only because you left the area, before the animation was over and it providing absolutely no effects, that are valuable and important for a skill to count as a group support skills, where SR lacks in. Stealth alone is no real group support - defensive Boons are Group Support, as they make it worth it to stay in the refuge and thats the very sense of this skill, that you search up a refuge, to get protected and to hide yourself from danger/harm.A skill should also exactly do, what its name stands for!! So far does SR hide us only, but it doesn't really protect allies which enter it. We can protect only ourself with it eventually by beign traited to the point, that Stealth decreases our received damage - but for this we don't need to stay in SR, its just all about stealth only and its a selfish effect - so again nothing that speaks for SR beign with the help of that a good group support skill.

My proposed skill version is 100% group support in regard of the meaning of the skill's name - with my version it hides you and others, as also protects you and others and that in a way, that it is more rewarding to STAY INSIDE the SR over time, than to flee immediately out of it the very first moment and with its radius gettign increased people would have more space inside, to so so, so that not every stupid AoE covers the whole radius of the SR to force you litteralyl outside of it instantly - there has to be a greater SR radius to have the space to outmaneuver AoEs inside the SR, the player shouldn't be forced to have to dodge also inside of the SR every single attack. The SR itself should give you just enough space to reposition yourself inside of it so that aoes won't hit you, unless at least 2 players cover with multiple aoes the whole SR radius - 1 enemy alone shouldn't be able to cover the whole radius, unless its a hard counter like Staff Necro with its handful of Marks that it can spam all over the place and cover with that much more area in short time.

Naturally would be such a change in effiency also be reflected in the Recharge Time getting increased from 60 seconds to 90 seconds and the skill becoming then a new Elite Skill, which replaces then Thieves Guild, while Thieves Guild gets reworked then into Shadow Doppelgangers with 60 seconds of Cooldown now, slightly decreased Health and 30 seconds duration with them using now the exactp same skilsl like the Original and attacking also faster with a trait effect under shadow arts, that lets defeatign Shadow Dopppelgangers heal you and gain Alacrity or something else.Then we would have under Deceptions a much more useful Elite Skill, while as usility skill we would get also a much more useful oen for DPS bursts that can be used more oftenly in situations where it is neccessary, than we were able to do so before with TG and its ridiculous 180 seconds of Cooldown.With Shadow Doppelgangers then replacing the spot of SR as Utility Skill ANet could then remove AMbush and replace it with a more useful Trap Skill, one that causes a bigger AoE explosion if you run into it, which causes Burning and Slow, so that Thieves have actually with this trap finally somethign to get access on Burning, while havign with its Slow effect an offensive group support that takes out the DPS pressure from an enemy for a while by weakenign their attack speed, which could be used eventually with the help of a trait to let you gain Quickness as a result for a foe running into your Explosive Trap.

One thign is sure, Thief absolutely needs the treatment that Mesmer receives, it needs some bigger gameplay changes, it still has some of the most useless sets of utility skills which are mostly all way too selfish and provide no real group support at all ,which is the very reason, why thief gets immediately gutted everywhere, when Group Support in the Game becomes essential, where the class is somewhat outshined by other options, like Chronomancer, any Guardian Spec, Eles and so on that are heavily reliant on boons and have access to tons of them, which the Thief never has had in all this time, despite one thinking they should have much more access to it from constantly boon stealing them from their enemies - somethign one should expect actually from a THIEF, that they constantly try to steal boons at anygiven chance, so that they can use them eiother for themself or share them with their allies to provide this way more group support, than they do now - but for that to work in PvE, ANet woudl hsave first to put alot more boon gameplay into the enemy designs, it won't be enough to have lots of boon gamepaly for that to work only for Pvp and WvW, it shoudl work in the whole game, so that the skills and effects can be for all game modes the same and don't need to be split.

Liek Anet made out of Alacrity now a Boon, it woudl be good if Stealth becomes a Boon as well, no need then anymore for silyl Reveal Effects, wen everythign you would need is either a Boon Steal, Removal or Corruption then, but on the other hand it would make Stealth also more valuable, because then would enhance also all the stuff that affects Boon the duration of Stealth, like the Concentration Stat, Buff Food, Upgrades ect..However, I'm neither really convinced by mself if this step woudl be the right one, because i rather believe its more important to decrease all this condition/boon effetc spam, than to continue increasign it, what Anet permanently does and did now again with Alacrity becoming yet another more boon in the game.

I think for the game it woudl be better to do exactly the opposite. removes Boons/Conditions that are obsolete and can easily be reworked into Buff Effects that are part of either Traits or Skill Effects, so that these buffs become more class specific, because one of the biggest mistakes imo in the condition/boon system is in my opinion, that ANet gives out the access to those effects way too easily for too many classes, thus giving their own class designs not the chance to become more unique by having more specifcly only access to certain effects by certain classes, instead of basically lettign them all have everything mostly somehow, either with skills, traits or the help of upgrades to fill the gaps, where you don't get what you want per skill/trait with your class, like its the case with the trapper rune, that allowed this way guardians to get their hands on stealth, when its in my opinion a class, that should never have at all stealth, because its a feature, that absolutely doesn't belong by design to a guardian to be stealthy, itds not in their nature to be that way

For PvE would be my SR version a god send that would make thieves a much better group support. Naturally the effect could be different for PvP..but surely not for WvW..there is anyways only the number of players on your side important and a SR version like mine also woul'd save your from death, if you get steamrolled by a zerg there or even just a little group that just stomps all over the place with their aoes, giving you even with my miore powerful SR version here no chance to survive that, simply because WvW can't be balanced, so theres no need to weaken skills extra for WvW, when the only mode that eventualy would need a Skill Split is PvP alone!

The Pvp Split of my proposed SR version could have a different duration effect, that lasts not 10 seconds, but 5 seconds and grants the boons on lesser durations per second, instead of every 2 seconds, with if really neccessary eventually a slightly smaller radius than the PvE version, cause pvP maps are anyways also smaller and the chances there as a mobile thief to run into multiple foes at ones are anyways low, if you know what you do, makign the Pvp version a quicker version, for a more bursty group support, where it woudl be that way more helpful for the Thief to have, especially as little preparastion to fight for a spot or defend it, if it must be to buy your allies some time to get to help you out, so that you can concentrate yourtself again on capping and +1ing elsewhere

What if shadow refuge allowed u to attack without being revealed ? that would be awesome.

@Cobrakon.3108 said:What if shadow refuge allowed u to attack without being revealed ? that would be awesome.

That would be absolutely inspid and would literally ruin PvP instantly.

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Cobrakon.3108 said:What if shadow refuge allowed u to attack without being revealed ? that would be awesome.

3 or4 years ago it might of ruined PvP, but nowa days with all the sustain and spam.... probably not. Oh and PvP is already ruined.

@Cobrakon.3108 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Cobrakon.3108 said:What if shadow refuge allowed u to attack without being revealed ? that would be awesome.

Bad idea. Shadow Refuge with team mates at mid and you have and invisible team. And what will happen if the enemy team do a such strat' ? Invisible teamfight ? This idea is 50%fun %50dumb

@Cobrakon.3108 said:What if shadow refuge allowed u to attack without being revealed ? that would be awesome.

No... it really wouldn't be. It'd be completely stupid and broken beyond all belief. Especially if stacking more than one thief with SR to stagger pulses.