Why even take weaver over tempest in PvE?

Most of the sword skills do no damage, and nothing will really approach air overload with fresh air for power builds. The damage is pathetic on most of these skills. Why are elementalists still saddled with incredibly low autoattack damage as the class with the least HP and armor in the game? Ele needs to be top DPS to offset its fragility. It brings virtually nothing in PvE that a warrior doesn't do better outside of damage.

Do you just grab a dart and throw it blind at the dartboard to determine figures for ability base damage values and coefficients?

More than likely it will be obvious to anyone that most if not all of these PoF elite specs won't see the light of day in instanced PvE because they all seem loaded with PvP gimmicks and low numbers that make them terrible for PvE.

@Zenith.7301 said:Most of the sword skills do no damage, and nothing will really approach air overload with fresh air for power builds. The damage is pathetic on most of these skills. Why are elementalists still saddled with incredibly low autoattack damage as the class with the least HP and armor in the game? Ele needs to be top DPS to offset its fragility. It brings virtually nothing in PvE that a warrior doesn't do better outside of damage.

Do you just grab a dart and throw it blind at the dartboard to determine figures for ability base damage values and coefficients?

More than likely it will be obvious to anyone that most if not all of these PoF elite specs won't see the light of day in instanced PvE because they all seem loaded with PvP gimmicks and low numbers that make them terrible for PvE.

But overloads are useless to eles playing pvp/wvw as they get easily interrupted/kited in any 1v1 situation.-Tempest is for group play, PvE centric, healbot-Weaver is single target dmg, self sustain ( barrier/dodge/evasion skills ) more PvP centered.

There is something for everybody now, pvers and pvpers, I have dropped ele for 2 years because of tempest and so did many other pvepers, we welcome weaver

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:Most of the sword skills do no damage, and nothing will really approach air overload with fresh air for power builds. The damage is pathetic on most of these skills. Why are elementalists still saddled with incredibly low autoattack damage as the class with the least HP and armor in the game? Ele needs to be top DPS to offset its fragility. It brings virtually nothing in PvE that a warrior doesn't do better outside of damage.

Do you just grab a dart and throw it blind at the dartboard to determine figures for ability base damage values and coefficients?

More than likely it will be obvious to anyone that most if not all of these PoF elite specs won't see the light of day in instanced PvE because they all seem loaded with PvP gimmicks and low numbers that make them terrible for PvE.

Weaver is not single target damage, it has less single target in sword than a tempest spamming air dagger auto.

Overloads are far from useless in PvP. Auramancers are everywhere in WvW and tempests in spvp are the best teamfighters in the game.

It's getting tiresome that every build finds use in spvp because they design them all for spvp and so many builds rot in hell in PvE because they refuse to do simple things like tweak their damage output or utility for PvE.

@Zenith.7301 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:Most of the sword skills do no damage, and nothing will really approach air overload with fresh air for power builds. The damage is pathetic on most of these skills. Why are elementalists still saddled with incredibly low autoattack damage as the class with the least HP and armor in the game? Ele needs to be top DPS to offset its fragility. It brings virtually nothing in PvE that a warrior doesn't do better outside of damage.

Do you just grab a dart and throw it blind at the dartboard to determine figures for ability base damage values and coefficients?

More than likely it will be obvious to anyone that most if not all of these PoF elite specs won't see the light of day in instanced PvE because they all seem loaded with PvP gimmicks and low numbers that make them terrible for PvE.

-Overloads are useless in pvp against decent players , we're talking about a 2s cast giant animation with no block/parry-Auramancers need a group of people to stay alive and not everybody like to zerg fight 24/7-Tempest is mostly a pve elite and weaver offers more pvp potential

The question itself implies Anet intended this to be a PVE spec in the first place. I'm not sure that's a good assumption to start with. We have seen in the past Anet create elites that favour PVP environments. Frankly, I see very little compelling reason for Anet to hammer the PVE aspect of the game with yet another very good Ele spec.

@Zenith.7301 said:Most of the sword skills do no damage, and nothing will really approach air overload with fresh air for power builds. The damage is pathetic on most of these skills. Why are elementalists still saddled with incredibly low autoattack damage as the class with the least HP and armor in the game? Ele needs to be top DPS to offset its fragility. It brings virtually nothing in PvE that a warrior doesn't do better outside of damage.

Do you just grab a dart and throw it blind at the dartboard to determine figures for ability base damage values and coefficients?

More than likely it will be obvious to anyone that most if not all of these PoF elite specs won't see the light of day in instanced PvE because they all seem loaded with PvP gimmicks and low numbers that make them terrible for PvE.

@Zenith.7301 said:Weaver is not single target damage, it has less single target in sword than a tempest spamming air dagger auto.

Not sure what you're smoking. Here's comparison of sword auto vs. dagger auto (unbuffed, no gear, weaver):

PPS = power damage per secondCPS = condi damage per secondDPS = total damage per second

Fire Sword: 419 PPS + 262 CPS = 681 DPSFire Dagger: 414 PPS + 0 CPS = 414 DPS (assuming all 3 projectiles hit)

Air Sword: 526.5 PPS + 0 CPS = 526.6 DPSAir Dagger: 486.3 PPS + 0 CPS = 486.3 DPS

Earth Sword: 445 PPS + 66 CPS = 511 DPSEarth Dagger: 261.9 PPS + 22 CPS = 283.9 DPS

Math based upon data from wiki.guildwars2.com and assume that full sword chain is used. Sword has additional benefits of stack conditions in fire and earth faster than dagger so the CPS numbers go up with consecutive attacks.

EDIT: Power coefficients are different between sword and dagger autos. I'm not sure if the wiki is accurate for sword in this regard (yet). Some dagger coeff appear to be higher than sword and vice versa.

EDIT: The numbers assume single-target, although all sword autos cleave 3. Only one dagger auto cleaves 3.

EDIT: sword earth auto-attack chain looks pretty amazing for hybrid builds, with fire auto not bad either. I'm pretty stoked!

@juno.1840 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:Most of the sword skills do no damage, and nothing will really approach air overload with fresh air for power builds. The damage is pathetic on most of these skills. Why are elementalists still saddled with incredibly low autoattack damage as the class with the least HP and armor in the game? Ele needs to be top DPS to offset its fragility. It brings virtually nothing in PvE that a warrior doesn't do better outside of damage.

Do you just grab a dart and throw it blind at the dartboard to determine figures for ability base damage values and coefficients?

More than likely it will be obvious to anyone that most if not all of these PoF elite specs won't see the light of day in instanced PvE because they all seem loaded with PvP gimmicks and low numbers that make them terrible for PvE.

@Zenith.7301 said:Weaver is not single target damage, it has less single target in sword than a tempest spamming air dagger auto.

Sword also has additional "benefits" of less than half the range of dagger autoattacks, which means you cleave less targets with the tiny 130 range.

Weaver also has no air overload procs added to the autoattack, so you are virtually fresh airing and only swapping to fire to gain the 120 power from elemental polyphony.

What props up weaver is more damage modifiers through elements of rage, elemental polyphony, and swift revenge. Whether that is enough to compensate for the throughput of overloads is up in the air, and what's not even debatable is that your cleave potential is lessened, and your boon output also goes down the drain.

@Zenith.7301 said:Most of the sword skills do no damage, and nothing will really approach air overload with fresh air for power builds. The damage is pathetic on most of these skills. Why are elementalists still saddled with incredibly low autoattack damage as the class with the least HP and armor in the game? Ele needs to be top DPS to offset its fragility. It brings virtually nothing in PvE that a warrior doesn't do better outside of damage.

Fresh Air is pretty weak after the nerfs to Overload Air on 8/8/17. It's nowhere near top DPS. I won't run Air in Power builds now, because Water offers better damage and utility. You can get better utility and equivalent damage with Arcane, too.

As for Weaver, the weapon is not the specialization. Sword is absolutely weak, but that doesn't impact the other weapons. Weaver depends on a lot of procs from traits for damage. If you can keep Weakness on your target, Swiftness or Superspeed on yourself, and rotate to single element every 8s, Weaver will cause massive damage. Uptime will determine whether it overcomes Tempest or not. I expect Fire/Water/Weaver to be a raid meta profession going forward.

@mygamingid.5816 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:Most of the sword skills do no damage, and nothing will really approach air overload with fresh air for power builds. The damage is pathetic on most of these skills. Why are elementalists still saddled with incredibly low autoattack damage as the class with the least HP and armor in the game? Ele needs to be top DPS to offset its fragility. It brings virtually nothing in PvE that a warrior doesn't do better outside of damage.

It may not be the spec, but it if it's not, why lock weapons behind elite specs in that case? It's part of the excitement of a fresh new playstyle.

It's why condi reaper just rubs salt in the wound as the intended weapon of the greatsword and reaper shroud are total garbage in power builds and ironically function better in a condition setup that's little different from core necro outside reaper shroud usage.

It seems people are really trying to against Weaver feeling Clunky, lazy GCD design and just plain non-Ele, non-Weaving feeling due to the mechanics?.... you guys are happy with so little...

WvW I still prefer Tempest in all honesty. There's a lot of innate survival in the Tempest line that can almost let you go Fire/Air/Tempest with few issues. Gale Song is huge for negating a CC. Harmonious Conduit is usually enough to get an Overload off (not against heavy interrupt but I haven't encountered it too much in WvW solo) and those Overloads are huge from condi cleanse (water) or massive damage (air) it's super strong and useful. Elemental Bastion is big heals with auras which if paired for even more defense (IE: Air/Water/Tempest) can dish out decent healing with Soothing Ice (and usually I end up more defensive to counter conditions anyways).

I mean at the end of the day, DPS isn't really my issue with the Elementalist but rather survivability. Weaver just doesn't add that so I either end up giving up Tempest survivability or Fire/Air DPS to take Water for survivability (and again usually I need both survivability options).

So to me, it's a fine PvE spec. Great 3rd DPS line. But for WvW survivability is the currency of the land and Weaver's survivability isn't there.

@Zenith.7301 said:Most of the sword skills do no damage, and nothing will really approach air overload with fresh air for power builds. The damage is pathetic on most of these skills. Why are elementalists still saddled with incredibly low autoattack damage as the class with the least HP and armor in the game? Ele needs to be top DPS to offset its fragility. It brings virtually nothing in PvE that a warrior doesn't do better outside of damage.

There's more to Weaver than sword, you know. Sword is absolute garbage, but Weaver got new skills for every main-hand weapon, and the new trait line is fantastic.

As for nothing really approaching Overload Air, well, how about this day one rotation that hits 45k DPS with staff Weaver? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMZg2x0Okjs&feature=youtu.be

@Kodiak.3281 said:WvW I still prefer Tempest in all honesty. There's a lot of innate survival in the Tempest line that can almost let you go Fire/Air/Tempest with few issues. Gale Song is huge for negating a CC. Harmonious Conduit is usually enough to get an Overload off (not against heavy interrupt but I haven't encountered it too much in WvW solo) and those Overloads are huge from condi cleanse (water) or massive damage (air) it's super strong and useful. Elemental Bastion is big heals with auras which if paired for even more defense (IE: Air/Water/Tempest) can dish out decent healing with Soothing Ice (and usually I end up more defensive to counter conditions anyways).

I mean at the end of the day, DPS isn't really my issue with the Elementalist but rather survivability. Weaver just doesn't add that so I either end up giving up Tempest survivability or Fire/Air DPS to take Water for survivability (and again usually I need both survivability options).

So to me, it's a fine PvE spec. Great 3rd DPS line. But for WvW survivability is the currency of the land and Weaver's survivability isn't there.

I usually run a backline staff and I was happy to trade Tempest for Weaver. It's not like I get to overload often in the backline. I lose some speed in access to water fields but I gain a stupid amount of dps. Survivability is pretty much the same. Some minor heals lost, some minor barrier gained. As long as your positioning is good, it really makes no difference.

And in PvE... I got 10k more with 20 mins of practice and rotation mistakes than I had managed on Tempest with months of practice.

@Feanor.2358 said:I usually run a backline staff and I was happy to trade Tempest for Weaver. It's not like I get to overload often in the backline. I lose some speed in access to water fields but I gain a stupid amount of dps. Survivability is pretty much the same. Some minor heals lost, some minor barrier gained. As long as your positioning is good, it really makes no difference.

And in PvE... I got 10k more with 20 mins of practice and rotation mistakes than I had managed on Tempest with months of practice.

I dunno man. I thought the same thing, but then you get into a big 3 way fight inside SMC's main room and those barriers ain't shit and Bolstered Elements is no Gale Song.

qT is having pretty good (better than tempest) numbers with Power Staff Weaver... Something like Air-Fire-Fire-Earth-Fire.

It's probably not as good for like, open world or fractals tho because overload has way better cleave and is so much more useful for cleansing/healing in a jam.

And sword is actually really fun for dueling people... And fun is like a thing still, right?

I don't think staff Weaver has any less cleave than staff Tempest. You don't have the two overloads, but you cast more Lava Font, Pyroclastic Blast is basically another Lava Font and Primordial Stance is pulse AOE as well. Currently it completely outshines Tempest.

open world PvE – cause I find it more fun than channeling overload; I much prefer the faster pace (and fire + earth, earth + fire skills are awesome for aoeing things down)

@narcx.3570 said:And fun is like a thing still, right?

Thanks for that last bit. <3I'm no dps expert, got little knowledge of where I stand with my damage as tempest, but I am enjoying the play style of weaver lots, especially sword even tho I do feel some loss of damage.

@Feanor.2358 said:I don't think staff Weaver has any less cleave than staff Tempest. You don't have the two overloads, but you cast more Lava Font, Pyroclastic Blast is basically another Lava Font and Primordial Stance is pulse AOE as well. Currently it completely outshines Tempest.

It’s also heavily reliant on decent alacrity uptime to maintain that elements of rage bonus easier and you need to time and plan your conjures in line with your earth/air switches so you have as little auto usage as possible. I do agree though, weaver outshines tempest or at least should under ideal circumstances but under less ideal tempest might edge forward or even core. I also don’t think air overload quite justifies the cleave pedestal people are putting it on.

Sword needs it’s cast times looking at, there’s a lot of needlessly long cast times especially on the auto, I was looking forward to using it in PvE even at a little reduced capacity but I doubt it is even worth mentioning currently.

I use tempest for Open world and multiple mobs. Weaver for open world bosses, dungeons, fractals, raids etc. they both have their uses. I love both of them.

When the mad king opens the portals to his helm again in a month, you sure want to be on tempest to tag those trash before they get cleaved

At this point I like Tempest better. I'm forcing myself to play weaver to give it a fair shake. So far it's an exercise in frustration.

For Mad King Labby, just run guardian w/Staff... although the range was horribly nerfed recently.

Because having fun is more important.

Why do people take water over earth for survivability?

@Zoid.2568 said:Why do people take water over earth for survivability?

Water will help you cleanse through gaining regen and lowering cool downs on cantrips in older builds, weaver it allows you to get a good heal every time you switch into water as well as maintaining soothing mists which helps with regenerating health. Earth trait line doesn’t really offer that cleansing (you have to be hit for diamond skin to work) or any health regeneration really so there’s not much point in running it. In fact tbh the earth trait line is pretty much only particularly good if you’re running full support or heavy signets, the latter being a very niche build.

I must say I did laugh when I saw the title, Why take weaver? For the damage mods obviously! With alacrity attunement swap is 3s which lets you really abuse the other skills in other attunements in between lava fonts and meteors. Just the GM trait is a huge dps increase from power to ferocity conversion.