Is Necromancer the Best open world Profession for PvE?

I keep hearing this spouted over and over again by people saying its the best at open world, their for its great in PvE. Now I have several issues with that debate point in that Every profession is good at roaming so that's not an argument, but rather I don't even believe this is true. Once upon a time this Might have been true(Although I'll argue why this never was the case in a minute) but as it stands now all professions are powerful enough to hold their own in most open world situations. And the ones that they can't, necromancer struggles with as well. If you are using Champion boss solos as an argument, bare in mind there are specific champions the necromancer struggles against worse than a glasscannon thief and some that they do better against than most other professions. Although they CAN do it, it isn't the case that they are the best at it as I'd argue that soloing Champions can be done far easier and far more effectively on Mesmer, Guardian, Revenant and warrior, which can all move around the boss to displace attacks pretty easily. I've used each profession to solo champions before, including engineer and thief and the hands down easiest most reliable profession to do it on, even with my almost 10x time playing necromancer over my choice has to be MESMER! That's right, mesmer. So, I wouldn't use the champion argument as a means to argue any amount of superiority in this catagory.

For the first catagory, lets look at movement speed. Necromancer has a few options. One of those options, the warhorn is something I wouldn't suggest as it will more likely put you in combat and make you move slower than any other class. Another options forces you to burn your life force which can be valuable in roaming. Another two ask you to use a utility slot and the last one asks you to use blood magic which is likely new players will gravitate to anyway. But is this better than other movement abilities other professions have? Well, no. Necromancer has a speed boost and a couple passive ones, but necromancer doesn't have the more advanced tech of something like a mesmer, warrior or even revenant. I'd say they're on par with Guardian in this regard, but every other profession can cross the map much easier. Excluding maybe mesmer, but even they have some solid tech to work with to make up not having a permanent 25% movement boost without HoT. So putting it like this their movement is mediocre at best. They have the passive movement speed but don't have the more advanced tech like leaps and their teleports tend to be extremely slow, so this catagory isn't in Necromancer's favor. You know what profession has all the tech, and movement abilities? Thief. Followed by warrior. So for movement, I have to give it to Thief. However necromancer movement is improved with PoF, but if you have POF movement is a moot point because of mounts. So even though necromancer lost this catagory, it wouldn't have mattered if they won.

What about survivability? Although its true the necromancer has some of the highest passive bulk in the game. This isn't to say they are the absolute most tanky profession. They do have an advantage in that they don't have to invest into as much defense to be solid, but the same is true for other profession. Guardian, Warrior and Revenant are all fairly bulky professions as they are with their heavy armor. They have a natural damage reduction higher than the other professions while also supporting active defensive abilities. Guardian blocks attacks passively which can shrug off large chunks of damage while Warrior has similar a level of natural bulk the necromancer does while also having quite a solid amount of recovery. Necromancer might create the illusion of survivability because it doesn't have a choice. They have to stick in the heat of battle and can't leave. They take far more damage than other professions so they have to be able to take it. While other professions can avoid damage and combat all together, the necromancer can't. This means that although they are more bulky, they are not better equipped to survive because of their inability to really turn tail and flee. I would say they are one of the best at this, but Not the absolute best. Again, I'd say Mesmer and Revenant both beat the necromancer in this catagory. If you get caught flat footed with a mesmer its your fault. They can get out of almost anything and Revenant shouldn't be overlooked. They have tones of escape options as well along with 2 healing skills that aren't reliant on a fickle and inconsistent resource mechanic.

Now lets take damage and attacking. Now this is a big sticking point. You want to take on champions with a necromancer? Better not run power. Because you will be there for ages if you decided to do that. Necromancer's DPS is low. They can modify it themselves with their skills but its a slow burn that takes a while. It demands patience from the user and a lot of waiting. Sometimes the necromancer can thrive with this, like with the Undead Giant in cursed shore since it basically hands out life force for a necromancer for free. But against something like a spider queen, it can knock you out of your death shroud than one shot you, taking away all of your defense. Also pursuit, melee champions are a hard fight for necromancers. Since they can't break their gaze they become easy targets and its not recommended you fight them unless you really know what you're doing. This is a stark contrast to other professions such as Warrior, mesmer, revenant, guardian, ranger and so on who can break through melee attacks and get in for the kill. While Necromancer does very well against stationary Champions, they struggle against highly active champions. While Mesmer can once again, fight stationary very well and highly active very well. Because of the mesmer's ability to break focus I'd argue they are the best at champion slaying. They just have all the right tools to do it. Of course this isn't the only aspect of Open world damage, we also have to consider open world events. And this is where the necromancer has a bit of trouble. Yeah, thats right, trouble! Because of the necromancer's extremely slow attacks this relegates them to using staff in these events. It used to be the case that epidemic was their saving grace in this, but even that has become a bit too slow. And it can be the case that if you don't have high enough DPS you don't get credit. Combine that with their naturally low DPS, their slow attacking, you have to heavily invest into glassy builds to be able to get a decent participation. And even if you do that you can occasionally find that you're only getting silver participation even when you're full glass cannon, participating your best. And the world event builds aren't the same as what's good against solo Champions. Meaning you should be running 2 armor sets. This problem is addressed with the expansions luckily. Reaper shroud does have great attack speed and is fantastic for events and the same is true for scourge and its shades. However, if you are running core necromancer you don't have this luxury. For new players they will find the necromancer's attacks to be lip, without potency and they will be struggling to make gold rewards with sub par armor as opposed if they chose a profession with stronger upfront damage. Such as warrior or elementalist. In terms of Open world events? Warrior I'd say is probably the best. They have a lot of spread damage and can strike quite a few enemies with their greatsword.

What about group Utility in Open world? Well, the necromancer has transfusion. And that's about it. Sure its very useful and can be quite good. but this sort of support is not unique to necromancer. The ranger can do search and rescue and the thief has shadow refuge. Revive traits are common place and I'd say the Elementalist is probably the strongest in this with their water magic. But this isn't the only utility to consider. For Jumping puzzles no one even comes close to the aid that mesmer provides and the passive buffs that Guardian gives out are all the more things to consider. Thief can also be helpful to allies in jumping puzzles with their stealth to get past annoying enemies that keep agroing allies. The stealth and port tech that mesmer offers Makes it the clear winner for jumping puzzles while the healing tech from guardian, Ranger and elementalist are all just going to knock necromancer out of the water. Does this mean that necromancer is terrible at aiding allies? No, but doesn't offer anywhere near the technical support that other professions do.

Overall the necromancer is pretty mediocre in open world. They require a lot of investment to be good and even with that investment they aren't the best at anything. They have a few moments to shine, but lack anything they really excel at. If I had to choose which profession was the best for open world? Id pick Mesmer and probably warrior. Between those two they have quite a few tools to aid themselves in a verity of situations, high survivability and great utility. After the expansions necromancer gets better, but So does everyone else. The myth that necromancer is the best at open world needs to die. Because it is not at all true.

Firstly I want to be absolutely clear with the fact that I only play necromancer casually, so I do not in any way claim to be an expert. Understood? Good.

Okay, so I disagree. Not about the movement thing, but the rest. Note that I run a minion master build with DIre gear for the most part, making me extremely tanky but with high condition damage. This is because necro minions DON'T scale from your stats, and that is actually a huge ADVANTAGE. It means if you are using minions as your primary non-condition DPS option you can stat yourself however you want. With full tank and a wall of undead between you and the enemy you are free to stand back and rarely ever take damage at all. I barely ever use shroud; it is totally unnecessary. And that is BEFORE you add blood magic and all its ways to constantly lifesteal from targets. So, from my admittedly limited and narrowly defined experience a blood magic/death magic minion master build has hands down some of the best survival in ALL open world content in the entire game. Add shroud to this (I use shroud completely as a health shield for defense) and you almost can't die, even if you're actively trying to get yourself killed.

Now damage....at the risk of being one of "those" people....have you considered you're playing the class....wrong? You keep talking about slow attacks and sub par DPS, but that is only if you play power. If you consider core necro a condition class and build for that, even without on-crit buffs, a scepter/staff necro has absolutely INSANE DPS. Again; Dire gear. All the tank you could need and still super high condition damage. A full dire set with runes of the undead, a sigil of corruption, and chyrocola jewels in your accessories gives you, baseline, 2830 armor, 28212 health, and 1847 condition damage. Baseline; no boons or trait effects AT ALL. Plus using the staff and scepter to stack conditions on multiple targets...core necro is NOT hurting in the damage department by any stretch of the imagination....if you accept the fact that it is a condition class. That is WHY they added Reaper; the first gen of elite specs was specifically intended to cover weaknesses of the core class. Core necro is a condi class with no real viable power build, thus; reaper. If you're playing a power necro you are playing a reaper. If you're not playing a reaper take all that zerker gear and flush it; core necro is a CONDITION class. And when build that way is AWESOME. And I haven't even mentioned being able to heal yourself as you do condition damage. Yeah, so you're constantly healing as your minions attack, AND healing a flat 10% if all your outgoing condition damage ON NO COOL DOWN.

That.Is.HUGE.

Were it not for the fact that I'm pretty much married to revenant and ranger for role playing reasons necromancer would be my main. I am ALL ABOUT condition spam, life steal, and pets. And build as I said above core necro can MASTER all three AND be a nearly unkillable tank at the same time.

So many words. What do they all say? No one will ever know.

@MrMojoRisin.7364 said:So many words. What do they all say? No one will ever know.

TL;DR, this person believes that core necromancer is woefully lacking in mobility skills, open world survival, and power based DPS, and requests clarification as to why a large number of people apparently still enjoy the class and insist on it's viability in open world PvE.

@"Arkham Creed.7358" said:Firstly I want to be absolutely clear with the fact that I only play necromancer casually, so I do not in any way claim to be an expert. Understood? Good.

Okay, so I disagree. Not about the movement thing, but the rest. Note that I run a minion master build with DIre gear for the most part, making me extremely tanky but with high condition damage. This is because necro minions DON'T scale from your stats, and that is actually a huge ADVANTAGE. It means if you are using minions as your primary non-condition DPS option you can stat yourself however you want. With full tank and a wall of undead between you and the enemy you are free to stand back and rarely ever take damage at all. I barely ever use shroud; it is totally unnecessary. And that is BEFORE you add blood magic and all its ways to constantly lifesteal from targets. So, from my admittedly limited and narrowly defined experience a blood magic/death magic minion master build has hands down some of the best survival in ALL open world content in the entire game. Add shroud to this (I use shroud completely as a health shield for defense) and you almost can't die, even if you're actively trying to get yourself killed.

Now damage....at the risk of being one of "those" people....have you considered you're playing the class....wrong? You keep talking about slow attacks and sub par DPS, but that is only if you play power. If you consider core necro a condition class and build for that, even without on-crit buffs, a scepter/staff necro has absolutely INSANE DPS. Again; Dire gear. All the tank you could need and still super high condition damage. A full dire set with runes of the undead, a sigil of corruption, and chyrocola jewels in your accessories gives you, baseline, 2830 armor, 28212 health, and 1847 condition damage. Baseline; no boons or trait effects AT ALL. Plus using the staff and scepter to stack conditions on multiple targets...core necro is NOT hurting in the damage department by any stretch of the imagination....if you accept the fact that it is a condition class. That is WHY they added Reaper; the first gen of elite specs was specifically intended to cover weaknesses of the core class. Core necro is a condi class with no real viable power build, thus; reaper. If you're playing a power necro you are playing a reaper. If you're not playing a reaper take all that zerker gear and flush it; core necro is a CONDITION class. And when build that way is AWESOME. And I haven't even mentioned being able to heal yourself as you do condition damage. Yeah, so you're constantly healing as your minions attack, AND healing a flat 10% if all your outgoing condition damage ON NO COOL DOWN.

That.Is.HUGE.

Were it not for the fact that I'm pretty much married to revenant and ranger for role playing reasons necromancer would be my main. I am ALL ABOUT condition spam, life steal, and pets. And build as I said above core necro can MASTER all three AND be a nearly unkillable tank at the same time.

I main a ranger and I've played necro minion master quite extensively. I die about the same on both of them, which is hardly ever in the open world. I kill close to twice as fast on my ranger.

Being survivable doesn't make a class the best class in open world PvE. However, it's probably the most mindless profession to play for people who want to sit and do less work. I've completed the world on every profession but revenant and I've completed all the hot zones on every profession. Necro just takes longer at most things....which isn't my preference.

@"Arkham Creed.7358" said:Firstly I want to be absolutely clear with the fact that I only play necromancer casually, so I do not in any way claim to be an expert. Understood? Good.

Okay, so I disagree. Not about the movement thing, but the rest. Note that I run a minion master build with DIre gear for the most part, making me extremely tanky but with high condition damage. This is because necro minions DON'T scale from your stats, and that is actually a huge ADVANTAGE. It means if you are using minions as your primary non-condition DPS option you can stat yourself however you want. With full tank and a wall of undead between you and the enemy you are free to stand back and rarely ever take damage at all. I barely ever use shroud; it is totally unnecessary. And that is BEFORE you add blood magic and all its ways to constantly lifesteal from targets. So, from my admittedly limited and narrowly defined experience a blood magic/death magic minion master build has hands down some of the best survival in ALL open world content in the entire game. Add shroud to this (I use shroud completely as a health shield for defense) and you almost can't die, even if you're actively trying to get yourself killed.

Now damage....at the risk of being one of "those" people....have you considered you're playing the class....wrong? You keep talking about slow attacks and sub par DPS, but that is only if you play power. If you consider core necro a condition class and build for that, even without on-crit buffs, a scepter/staff necro has absolutely INSANE DPS. Again; Dire gear. All the tank you could need and still super high condition damage. A full dire set with runes of the undead, a sigil of corruption, and chyrocola jewels in your accessories gives you, baseline, 2830 armor, 28212 health, and 1847 condition damage. Baseline; no boons or trait effects AT ALL. Plus using the staff and scepter to stack conditions on multiple targets...core necro is NOT hurting in the damage department by any stretch of the imagination....if you accept the fact that it is a condition class. That is WHY they added Reaper; the first gen of elite specs was specifically intended to cover weaknesses of the core class. Core necro is a condi class with no real viable power build, thus; reaper. If you're playing a power necro you are playing a reaper. If you're not playing a reaper take all that zerker gear and flush it; core necro is a CONDITION class. And when build that way is AWESOME. And I haven't even mentioned being able to heal yourself as you do condition damage. Yeah, so you're constantly healing as your minions attack, AND healing a flat 10% if all your outgoing condition damage ON NO COOL DOWN.

That.Is.HUGE.

Were it not for the fact that I'm pretty much married to revenant and ranger for role playing reasons necromancer would be my main. I am ALL ABOUT condition spam, life steal, and pets. And build as I said above core necro can MASTER all three AND be a nearly unkillable tank at the same time.

Minions are part of the slow attacking that I was taking into consideration. They don't tag in large scale events well and although they do okay against some champions, they are not optimal and any argument made there can be made with clones which are easier to generate and actually break aggro for you on occasion. Minions damage is also nothing impressive either. Its fine, for single target but when looking to events which require you to tag large groups, CpC or wells and shouts are all going to be better options to get your damage across.

Note, I am a necromancer main with well over 6k hours on the profession and I can tell you that their effectiveness in open world content is nothing amazing. Its mediocre. That isn't to say its terrible, I never made that claim. Its just not as good as people claim it is. People claim its the best, when its not. Its in the middle. Not the best, not the worst. Just... Fine..

But you also have to understand why I made this post. People use this argument to say the necromancer doesn't need any sort of balance pass that could make them more viable or have more diversity. They use this false argument to dismiss the massive concerns of the necromancer community as a whole.

@Lily.1935 said:

@"Arkham Creed.7358" said:Firstly I want to be absolutely clear with the fact that I only play necromancer casually, so I do not in any way claim to be an expert. Understood? Good.

Okay, so I disagree. Not about the movement thing, but the rest. Note that I run a minion master build with DIre gear for the most part, making me extremely tanky but with high condition damage. This is because necro minions DON'T scale from your stats, and that is actually a huge ADVANTAGE. It means if you are using minions as your primary non-condition DPS option you can stat yourself however you want. With full tank and a wall of undead between you and the enemy you are free to stand back and rarely ever take damage at all. I barely ever use shroud; it is totally unnecessary. And that is BEFORE you add blood magic and all its ways to constantly lifesteal from targets. So, from my admittedly limited and narrowly defined experience a blood magic/death magic minion master build has hands down some of the best survival in ALL open world content in the entire game. Add shroud to this (I use shroud completely as a health shield for defense) and you almost can't die, even if you're actively trying to get yourself killed.

Now damage....at the risk of being one of "those" people....have you considered you're playing the class....wrong? You keep talking about slow attacks and sub par DPS, but that is only if you play power. If you consider core necro a condition class and build for that, even without on-crit buffs, a scepter/staff necro has absolutely INSANE DPS. Again; Dire gear. All the tank you could need and still super high condition damage. A full dire set with runes of the undead, a sigil of corruption, and chyrocola jewels in your accessories gives you, baseline, 2830 armor, 28212 health, and 1847 condition damage. Baseline; no boons or trait effects AT ALL. Plus using the staff and scepter to stack conditions on multiple targets...core necro is NOT hurting in the damage department by any stretch of the imagination....if you accept the fact that it is a condition class. That is WHY they added Reaper; the first gen of elite specs was specifically intended to cover weaknesses of the core class. Core necro is a condi class with no real viable power build, thus; reaper. If you're playing a power necro you are playing a reaper. If you're not playing a reaper take all that zerker gear and flush it; core necro is a CONDITION class. And when build that way is AWESOME. And I haven't even mentioned being able to heal yourself as you do condition damage. Yeah, so you're constantly healing as your minions attack, AND healing a flat 10% if all your outgoing condition damage ON NO COOL DOWN.

That.Is.HUGE.

Were it not for the fact that I'm pretty much married to revenant and ranger for role playing reasons necromancer would be my main. I am ALL ABOUT condition spam, life steal, and pets. And build as I said above core necro can MASTER all three AND be a nearly unkillable tank at the same time.

Nerco is indeed need some overhaul, especially RAID viability. But the class as a whole is not the worst class nor the unplayable class that require a immediate fix.

The class is in good standing in general pve, pvp and wvw at the moment. Yes maybe they don’t have that RAID DPS but doesn’t make the class as bad as you’ve claimed. Well if training golem can hit back, move and teleport, people may find classes that excel in conditions application like necro are actually doing good damage.

This is why dps meter is the toxic tool that we should never have one.

The text walls..

Bottom point: necro is good for open world PvE but not best. Extremely noobie friendly, great at tagging and keeping other noobies alive.But rock bottom mobility and no god-tier defenses to stop a 1 hit kill in any other way then dodging out.

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:The text walls..

Bottom point: necro is good for open world PvE but not best. Extremely noobie friendly, great at tagging and keeping other noobies alive.But rock bottom mobility and no god-tier defenses to stop a 1 hit kill in any other way then dodging out.

Actually, its really bad for noobs. It teaches bad habits but I didn't mention that. I also mentioned how its bad core leads to bad noobie situations because of its slow attacks.

@Lily.1935 said:

@"Arkham Creed.7358" said:Firstly I want to be absolutely clear with the fact that I only play necromancer casually, so I do not in any way claim to be an expert. Understood? Good.

Okay, so I disagree. Not about the movement thing, but the rest. Note that I run a minion master build with DIre gear for the most part, making me extremely tanky but with high condition damage. This is because necro minions DON'T scale from your stats, and that is actually a huge ADVANTAGE. It means if you are using minions as your primary non-condition DPS option you can stat yourself however you want. With full tank and a wall of undead between you and the enemy you are free to stand back and rarely ever take damage at all. I barely ever use shroud; it is totally unnecessary. And that is BEFORE you add blood magic and all its ways to constantly lifesteal from targets. So, from my admittedly limited and narrowly defined experience a blood magic/death magic minion master build has hands down some of the best survival in ALL open world content in the entire game. Add shroud to this (I use shroud completely as a health shield for defense) and you almost can't die, even if you're actively trying to get yourself killed.

Now damage....at the risk of being one of "those" people....have you considered you're playing the class....wrong? You keep talking about slow attacks and sub par DPS, but that is only if you play power. If you consider core necro a condition class and build for that, even without on-crit buffs, a scepter/staff necro has absolutely INSANE DPS. Again; Dire gear. All the tank you could need and still super high condition damage. A full dire set with runes of the undead, a sigil of corruption, and chyrocola jewels in your accessories gives you, baseline, 2830 armor, 28212 health, and 1847 condition damage. Baseline; no boons or trait effects AT ALL. Plus using the staff and scepter to stack conditions on multiple targets...core necro is NOT hurting in the damage department by any stretch of the imagination....if you accept the fact that it is a condition class. That is WHY they added Reaper; the first gen of elite specs was specifically intended to cover weaknesses of the core class. Core necro is a condi class with no real viable power build, thus; reaper. If you're playing a power necro you are playing a reaper. If you're not playing a reaper take all that zerker gear and flush it; core necro is a CONDITION class. And when build that way is AWESOME. And I haven't even mentioned being able to heal yourself as you do condition damage. Yeah, so you're constantly healing as your minions attack, AND healing a flat 10% if all your outgoing condition damage ON NO COOL DOWN.

That.Is.HUGE.

Were it not for the fact that I'm pretty much married to revenant and ranger for role playing reasons necromancer would be my main. I am ALL ABOUT condition spam, life steal, and pets. And build as I said above core necro can MASTER all three AND be a nearly unkillable tank at the same time.

The minions themselves don't need to tag anything. Doesn't mater if they don't "tag well" because do you know what does? Turning the entire battle field into one giant persistent AoE of condition based doom with your staff and a small army of standard minions and limitless Jagged Horrors exploding into poison could when they are killed due to the Death Nova trait. When I run events on my necro the mobs I manage to tag throughout the event can best be summarized as "all of 'em." Here, take this out for a test drive; very fun. http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vREQNArYWjk0QTN2VD+2A7NOCGK5JkClwcG2hhIOABQ5C-jRyCABP8EAaS5nQ7PAhSQAOEA+o+zL6DMw83xnAASBsoGM-e

That said I won't argue your vastly greater experience with the class, and I freely admit that my fondness for it is largely a personality quirk; I'm one of those people who read Anne Rice, have played or watched everything with the name Resident Evil attached to it, have a half finished novel somewhere on my harddrive best described as "Harry Potter but also Dracula" and my favorite gaming thing ever is building a small army of disposable drones in RTS games, pointing them at my enemy, and sitting back sipping a cup of tea as I watch them swarm....ANYWAY.....

I disagree that the necromancer is some incredibly broken class that needs a ton of fixes right now, maybe it does to a degree, but I feel like the revenant should be the priority simply because it is objectively still in beta and the necro is at least "done." That said if all you're trying to do is get some more attention from the devs in hopes of some fixes somewhere down the line, consider me on your side.

(Side note; if Arena Net was field testing that psudo-RTS gameplay style from the Enemy of my Enemy quest for an upcoming Necromancer elite spec I'm going to be changing my main. Seriously give us a bunch of new minion skills and bind those commands to F2~F4 and it would work perfectly.)

@Lily.1935 said:

Actually, its really bad for noobs. It teaches bad habits but I didn't mention that. I also mentioned how its bad core leads to bad noobie situations because of its slow attacks.

Agree to disagree. In my opinion necro teaches very good habits.As for core - it's amazing in certain aspects, in others it's flat out horrid ( death shroud, horrible condi weapons, inexcusable lack of stab).

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

Actually, its really bad for noobs. It teaches bad habits but I didn't mention that. I also mentioned how its bad core leads to bad noobie situations because of its slow attacks.

Except it doesn't. I've been in talks with other Necromancer mains for years and new players starting as necromancer. The response is almost always the same. After choosing necromancer that had struggles trying to figure out best how to use other professions and would often go far tankier than they honestly needed to. They'd struggle to use mechanics like dodges and blocks and they'd have to unlearn bad habits.

While i can can say playing necro makes you pay attention to enemy boons, unlike other professions, it also teaches you to learn more about enemy attack patterns and attacks, since here you can choose to let some stuff hit you (hey, i'm beefy) and which you must avoid at all costs.

Also while they may have "suffered" from reliance on passive defenses, the "perfect" playstyle that relies on active ones is extremely risky. Don't press a block on a guardian or ele at critical moment, see what happens. While playing a necro makes you aware (and very good) at using passive defenses and "bruiser builds" (20% or so less damage from top tier, but 2x the defenses).

It would worry me far more if necro taught them "good ways to play" because it would mean all professions basically play the same way...

Your points in TL;DR format~ Necro can't move as fast as other classes.~ Necro can't dps like other classes.~ Necro can't sustain like other classes.

Honestly, it's like we're playing two completely seperate classes. I'm not a Necromancer main, but I was able to pick up this class from the get go - I tomed to 80, traited blood/death magic, took a (green) axe/warhorn in hand with my yellow level-up armour and charged into HoT with my minion hoarde.

And y'know what? My minions took all the damage, and my "sub-paar" dps won the day every single time, timers be damned.

People don't suggest necro because it's the fastest or the most efficiant class - people suggest it because it's the easiest. The second healthbar mechanic and minion spam allow you to ignore so many mechanics, to the point where even an elementary idea of when to dodge and mashing your skills off cooldown will usually be surficiant to sustain your way through a fight.

In all honesty, I suggest Necro to anyone who doesn't want to learn how to play the game. It's just that face-rolly.

@"Arkham Creed.7358" said:

I disagree that the necromancer is some incredibly broken class that needs a ton of fixes right now, maybe it does to a degree, but I feel like the revenant should be the priority simply because it is objectively still in beta and the necro is at least "done." That said if all you're trying to do is get some more attention from the devs in hopes of some fixes somewhere down the line, consider me on your side.

We've had simple "Fixes" for years. They haven't worked, they don't work. Necromancer is pretty much dead to me as is this game. I've lost so much faith in Arena net's capacity to deliver on what they promised without a scowl on their face and to give us the best game possible. And I've been sitting around for 6 years pushing for something to be done about the obviously busted life force and shroud mechanics but arena net has only exacerbated the problem and saying things like "its working as intended" Really??? A mechanic that swings so wildly in usability to be consider Overpowered in one game mode and completely useless in another "works as intended"? The reason necromancer can't be good is because they said its because we have this wildly inconsistent mechanic that EVERYONE complains about, especially necromancers. Half the Necromancer community loves death shroud and hates how life force works. The Other half absolutely LOATHES shroud with a fiery burning passion and would set fire to it in a second because it has been the Ban of our existence since launch.

Shroud is an Awful mechanic. It has always been the worst designed mechanic in the game, and always will be as long as it keeps being ignored. They ignored us in favor of Ranger, they ignored us in favor of Mesmer, they ignore us in favor of everything. We are the last profession to get a proper fix. And this is always how its been. GW1 the necromancer was my main there two, for for anyone thinking my main bias is whats driving me its not. GW1 I mentioned nothing about necromancer needing to be overhauled because It was incredibly useful, its mechanics all worked well and over all its balancing problems mostly came from Other professions using the necromancer's abilities not the necromancer itself. The only thing I wanted was an update on some old skills not seeing use, but I wanted that for all professions, not just necromancer. For GW2, necromancer is a train wreak. A sluggish poorly designed profession with no foresight in how anything impacts anything internally with the profession or externally. We literally had to complain for years about life stealing not functioning with shroud before they finally got the picture and when they finally "fixed" that it still wasn't good enough because the mechanic is still a parasitic nightmare.

YES revenant should have more skills. But Ritualist, Assassin, Dervish and Paragon all had far fewer skills than the other professions from GW1 and it did hinder them a bit but like the revenant, it doesn't fundamentally break them. They were still good, they still functioned fairly well. This isn't the case with Necromancer. Necromancer is highly erratic in its functionality and its mechanic is a problem. And considering the necromancer is a core class and not an expansion class it is even more imperative that it is fixed. Especially before an expansion profession that isn't even broken.

PS: Excuse me. I'm really passionate about this because i've been arguing on behalf of the necromancer for years. Yes I'm glad you somewhat agree, but I just can't agree that the revenant is more important right now.

In my opinion you can't break it down to numbers and abilities. Necro has a very unique playstyle; yes, in general you can make it quite a nice passively tanky profession that will see you through much of PvE without even being downed, but that playstyle isn't for everyone. I love the necro aesthetic, and I feel I've spent a lot of my GW2 time really trying to enjoy the class but ultimately not enjoying the way it plays.

Ultimately, the 'best' profession for open-world PvE is/are the one(s) you enjoy playing the most. Play something boring but effective that doesn't match what you want from the game and you'll lose interest long before you get through most PvE. Play something that might be statistically sub-optimal but feels very natural for you to play, THAT is the best for open world PvE – for you.

Play other class professions and you will see their flaws. Ele does high dmg (assuming best = dmg?) But in open pve you don't see them much? Because they drop so often.

Never underestimate necro minnions swarming a champion to tank (it's way more effective than a ranger's pet). Argueable, they do kill stuff slower because necro does not have the burst, but the dmg is there. If it's burst you're seeking for, a warrior 100blades or FB will be more to your ideal class profession.

I may be mistaken but I don't think people are saying core necro is that good, it's just very failsafe in newbie hands, allowing them to enjoy the game at a slower pace as they begin, without having to worry about dieing as on other professions. Some newbies can jump right into thief gameplay and solo champs and all fairly quickly but that's not everyone, especially the type of players this game attracts.

And on Scourge I can solo more champs than any of my other toons while doing so in a reasonable time. Very possible that my skill isn't that high on other professions with higher damage potential but of all 9 profs I have, my Scourge puts out the most solo dps while not dieing to harder champs. Other professions lose a lot of damage when built to solo harder champs.

@Lily.1935 said:

@"Arkham Creed.7358" said:

I disagree that the necromancer is some incredibly broken class that needs a ton of fixes right now, maybe it does to a degree, but I feel like the revenant should be the priority simply because it is objectively still in beta and the necro is at least "done." That said if all you're trying to do is get some more attention from the devs in hopes of some fixes somewhere down the line, consider me on your side.

Ive got well close to 5k hours on my own necro and ill honestly say i feel different about shroud.Shroud is what drew me into even trying the class in the first place and i love the visual theme and idea of it. Could it be done better most certainly but i dont blame shroud for being the main issue with necormancer. Especially in todays meta where every other profession except necromancer is dripping in boons.

Arena net has the power to give players the power to drown themselves in boons but not enemy AI when bosses defiance system was reworked they should have considered giving any boss with a breakbar or any champion and possibly even vet. enemies a plethora of boon spam that they constantly put out. Ideally this would have made necros much more viable in pve in fact it would have made them almost a requirement for just about anything.

Ideally if they did decide to fix/ rework necormancer for "Pve" (ill keep it to that sense thats what we are talking about here) and they removed shroud i would likely drop the profession. Visually when you go into shroud you should feel powerful and dangerous and the visuals are thematically there but the effectiveness is not . (Across core and reaper)

I wont count scourge here because its clear that anet had no idea what they really wanted to do when they caved into half the necro community asking for no shroud.

One good change to pve Enemies coudl make necromancers very viable in this game but they refuses to make it happen.

Necromancer, specifically minionmancer, is very easy for new and inexperienced players to get into the game. All they have to do is summon minions and wander around drawing aggro, which the minions take care of. They will even help find mobs to attack.

Outside of that, Necro is a wonky profession giving mixed feelings of indestructability and helpless vulnerability due to how defense scaling and damage mitigation are so different from other professions.

• Shroud is charged by nearby deaths, weapon skill or utility use, trait and specialization choices, or taking damage. It also has cool-downs like normal skills everyone has so there is one, primary defense mechanic with two dependencies instead of more than one (build selection) with only cool-down as a dependency.
• There are no invulnerability skills, blocks, reflects, or anything that repells all of an incoming attack for a fixed period of time. A dodge, an interrupt, or life force use are most of the options, barring the three teleports.

I couldn't get through the whole original post but I don't feel it's unrealistic for people to see Necro as the best, or at least, top classes for OW content. It has nothing to do with the idea that other classes hold their own or perform better in OW PVE. It has everything to do with the fact that there is a class of builds that allow low skilled players to achieve exceptional results with no consideration for adjusting stats or traits away from purely offensive ones. I believe THAT'S the defining factor ... no worse or unreasonable than someone thinking Ele is the 'best' class because they have the highest DPS for raids. It's a meta mentality ... applied in a different form ... and while I hate that kind of thinking, the pinnacles of what a class can achieve, regardless of it's overall state, can't be ignored.

Unfortunately, I don't think that has anything to do with necro actually being a low skill class or an overall balanced or even a 'good' class; just like meta builds, it simply speaks to a single build that allows a lower threshold of skill to do exceptional things. It boils down to minions; like it or not, it's a broken AF PVE mechanic. They tank for you, you have lots of them, they last a long time, they don't time out or go on a CD and they even have some reasonable off-skills and damage. Why would you NOT use them over ANY other skill on a CD for OW PVE?

In all honesty, while I love the theme and look I've created on my necro, aside from this particular class of builds, it isn't as good in OW PVE as other classes. At best, I would say it's around the middle of the pack ... but I know when I need it, I can get into a phone booth and turn into Superman if I need to.

For what it's worth, Guardian and Ranger are my top picks for the best OW PVE classes; the way they achieve multiple damage sources, take advantage of passive and active defenses, their ability to deal with many situations ...

There's nothing saying you can't run with less than full minions, either.. you can be plenty fine using just the golem on a condi build with, say, BiP, Epi, and whatever else you want and do just fine by grabbing a ton of enemies and bouncing condis around. With a scepter, it will probably kill a lot faster than the staff or axe builds too, at range. Necro in general is also very self0sufficient with might, which can be a huge portion of your damage in open world.

@"Westenev.5289" said:Your points in TL;DR format~ Necro can't move as fast as other classes.~ Necro can't dps like other classes.~ Necro can't sustain like other classes.

Honestly, it's like we're playing two completely seperate classes. I'm not a Necromancer main, but I was able to pick up this class from the get go - I tomed to 80, traited blood/death magic, took a (green) axe/warhorn in hand with my yellow level-up armour and charged into HoT with my minion hoarde.

And y'know what? My minions took all the damage, and my "sub-paar" dps won the day every single time, timers be damned.

People don't suggest necro because it's the fastest or the most efficiant class - people suggest it because it's the easiest. The second healthbar mechanic and minion spam allow you to ignore so many mechanics, to the point where even an elementary idea of when to dodge and mashing your skills off cooldown will usually be surficiant to sustain your way through a fight.

In all honesty, I suggest Necro to anyone who doesn't want to learn how to play the game. It's just that face-rolly.

But what you're replying too is still true. I can kill stuff on my necro over time too...but it is over time. I kill faster on most other professions with most other builds. I find, particularly with a minion master build, I'm extremely unhappy with my kill rate. If I want to solo HoT I'd much rather do it on a ranger, on which I have the same success but I get through combat much quicker.

@Boulder.3589 said:I may be mistaken but I don't think people are saying core necro is that good, it's just very failsafe in newbie hands, allowing them to enjoy the game at a slower pace as they begin, without having to worry about dieing as on other professions. Some newbies can jump right into thief gameplay and solo champs and all fairly quickly but that's not everyone, especially the type of players this game attracts.

And on Scourge I can solo more champs than any of my other toons while doing so in a reasonable time. Very possible that my skill isn't that high on other professions with higher damage potential but of all 9 profs I have, my Scourge puts out the most solo dps while not dieing to harder champs. Other professions lose a lot of damage when built to solo harder champs.

This is the problem though. It's like training wheels. There are plenty of people who start on a necro and can't switch away from it, because the game is too hard, but the necro, which is ultr-forgiving, never really taught them how to play.

@Vayne.8563 said:

@"Westenev.5289" said:Your points in TL;DR format~ Necro can't move as fast as other classes.~ Necro can't dps like other classes.~ Necro can't sustain like other classes.

Honestly, it's like we're playing two completely seperate classes. I'm not a Necromancer main, but I was able to pick up this class from the get go - I tomed to 80, traited blood/death magic, took a (green) axe/warhorn in hand with my yellow level-up armour and charged into HoT with my minion hoarde.

And y'know what? My minions took all the damage, and my "sub-paar" dps won the day every single time, timers be damned.

People don't suggest necro because it's the fastest or the most efficiant class - people suggest it because it's the easiest. The second healthbar mechanic and minion spam allow you to ignore so many mechanics, to the point where even an elementary idea of when to dodge and mashing your skills off cooldown will usually be surficiant to sustain your way through a fight.

In all honesty, I suggest Necro to anyone who doesn't want to learn how to play the game. It's just that face-rolly.

I used to play Longbow Sword/Axe power ranger, so I find this fairly debatable – especially if you’re playing that “Power axe/warhorn” druid build that seems to have become all the rage amongst new rangers lately. Perhaps if you played Condi Soulbeast or Condi Druid, you might kill them in a reasonable timeframe?

Ranger tends to be very forgiving, I agree - but minion master necro is even more so, especially when you run into trash situations like the Champ Troll running in on your Troll HP in Tangled Depths where enemies can cleave through the pet. Ranger may have a higher skill ceiling, but what does that matter if minion master has literally no skill floor! A necromancer doesn't have to care about their minions, or suffer 1 minute cooldown after they die. The sort of player who benefits from this build is likely not going to care about time.

I repeat once again, people don't suggest Necro because it's the best. People suggest necro because it's the easiest.