Daggers precise cut, focused slash and keen strike needs to be checked, it's base dmg is patheticly low, even with the 15% critical dmg increase if it crits... in my opinion it should be at least 20% to be fair, for keen strike, the dmg is alright but the the might should change to, 2 stacks when it hits and 3 when it crits, for the daggers burst its verry simple its dmg sucks greatly, it should at least be increased a 20%, everything else is ok.After the Attaker's Insight nerf i could clearly see dmg reduccion to a point that i decided to make this post.

@wolverine.5164 said:Daggers precise cut, focused slash and keen strike needs to be checked, it's base dmg is patheticly low, even with the 15% critical dmg increase if it crits... in my opinion it should be at least 20% to be fair, for keen strike, the dmg is alright but the the might should change to, 2 stacks when it hits and 3 when it crits, for the daggers burst its verry simple its dmg sucks greatly, it should at least be increased a 20%, everything else is ok.After the Attaker's Insight nerf i could clearly see dmg reduccion to a point that i decided to make this post.

The damage of dagger was already nerfed for some odd reasons we will never know, since anyone complained about it doing too much damage.

Btw if you pretend to use dagger as a damage weapon you are doing something wrong and you didnt understand the profession, if you want pure damage better switch to core with axe main hand.

Dagger is a purely pvp wvw weapon which offers 2 gap closers, 1 unblockable boonrip skill and 1 daze/stun high cast utility. Dagger is an utility weapon and far from being a damage dealing weapon, or that would be too op.

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@wolverine.5164 said:Daggers precise cut, focused slash and keen strike needs to be checked, it's base dmg is patheticly low, even with the 15% critical dmg increase if it crits... in my opinion it should be at least 20% to be fair, for keen strike, the dmg is alright but the the might should change to, 2 stacks when it hits and 3 when it crits, for the daggers burst its verry simple its dmg sucks greatly, it should at least be increased a 20%, everything else is ok.After the Attaker's Insight nerf i could clearly see dmg reduccion to a point that i decided to make this post.

TL; DR - Seperate these attacks and give it a damage buff in PvE where it's utility is pretty much wasted anyway.

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@wolverine.5164 said:Daggers precise cut, focused slash and keen strike needs to be checked, it's base dmg is patheticly low, even with the 15% critical dmg increase if it crits... in my opinion it should be at least 20% to be fair, for keen strike, the dmg is alright but the the might should change to, 2 stacks when it hits and 3 when it crits, for the daggers burst its verry simple its dmg sucks greatly, it should at least be increased a 20%, everything else is ok.After the Attaker's Insight nerf i could clearly see dmg reduccion to a point that i decided to make this post.

Again daggers dmg sucks greatly, it might not be ment for dmg dealing but regardless of that its dmg is to low...

Since last patch damage overall is quite low now .. small boost on elite specialization weapon make sense.. its unique weapon to elite spec just like ability strip boons. Yes it belongs to specialization.

These days people on forum have to disagree with everything. If possible a bit offensive as much as forum rules allow you. like this:

@whoknocks.4935 said:Btw if you pretend to use dagger as a damage weapon you are doing something wrong and you didnt understand the profession, if you want pure damage better switch to core with axe main hand.... is this really necessary ??but back to topic...

i would personally suggest to add some boost damage to trait: -> Sun and Moon Style <- ...and make it useful pve focused trait.

I still think they need more PvE/PvP/WvW splits on skills, and yes dagger AA chain should be one of those.

@Luna.6203 said:

Since last patch damage overall is quite low now .. small boost on elite specialization weapon make sense.. its unique weapon to elite spec just like ability strip boons. Yes it belongs to specialization.

These days people on forum have to disagree with everything. If possible a bit offensive as much as forum rules allow you. like this:

@whoknocks.4935 said:Btw if you pretend to use dagger as a damage weapon you are doing something wrong and you didnt understand the profession, if you want pure damage better switch to core with axe main hand.

... is this really necessary ??but back to topic...

Why you have to take it as an attack? It is just truth.

Same as a druid who complains of staff not being able to to enough dps, it has a completely different purpose which is healing and utilities, same as dagger.

You can't give dagger the damage of axe while maintaining it's boon rip and stun and unblockable.

Each weapon serve different purposes, why is it hard to understand and to accept?

Not all weapons can be viable to become meta pve dps, dagger is focused on pvp and wvw, for pve dps use something else.

my suggestion is:

look at this trait: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sun_and_Moon_Style and tell me it do not deserve some damage boost cd reduction or something... just like any other weapon damage traits.

I just wanted to support this topic because i would like to see dagger more useful in future patches.

but its just my personal opinion / my suggestion /feel free to disagree / and i understand it will probably never happen.

@whoknocks.4935 said:Why you have to take it as an attack? It is just truth.1st: because: "you are doing something wrong and you didnt understand the profession" if its not offensive quote and i dont know what is.2nd: its not truth. Dagger is definitely not purely pvp/wvw weapon. Its also great in pve. For example in fractals i prefer dagger/axe//axe/dagger build instead of raid meta damage build. i know its very popular now to use meta everywhere. whatever u change one trait. u are no longer meta and its makes you bad :#

@whoknocks.4935 said:Same as a druid who complains of staff not being able to to enough dps, it has a completely different purpose which is healing and utilities, same as dagger.There you trying to compare healing spec and damage spec. come on...

@whoknocks.4935 said:You can't give dagger the damage of axe while maintaining it's boon rip and stun and unblockable.Axe still gives you one dash and one range attack(2x) and instead of removing boons it gives you boons. instead of crit damage axe gives you extra damage to low hp target etc.. so what's so different here ? real difference is damage...

@whoknocks.4935 said:Each weapon serve different purposes, why is it hard to understand and to accept?still both weapon are damage weapons. Not like druid staff which is healing weapon.

@whoknocks.4935 said:Not all weapons can be viable to become meta pve dps, dagger is focused on pvp and wvw, for pve dps use something else.I dont care about meta dps .. we just talk about small damage boost. its doesnt mean it must be meta .. pls stop this "meta dps" nonsense not everyone ctrl+C-ctrl+V builds.

@"Luna.6203" said:

my suggestion is:

look at this trait: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sun_and_Moon_Style and tell me it do not deserve some damage boost cd reduction or something... just like any other weapon damage traits.

I just wanted to support this topic because i would like to see dagger more useful in future patches.

but its just my personal opinion / my suggestion /feel free to disagree / and i understand it will probably never happen.I would definitely be fore something like this, it wouldn't even need to be just a static power increase, you could make it do something similar to forceful greatsword, but instead of might on a crit maybe we add vulnerability on crit? There are lots of things we could do with it, I just think vulnerability on a crit would fit thematically with Sun and Moon style. Also if it'd be too OP in PvP/WvW they could just split the trait.

Am I reading right here? People are complaining that daggers aren't good damage .. it's described as "pathetically low"?

OK, so what is this pathetically low damage? It's pretty meaningless talk if you don't have a value to talk about.

If you play the class you'd know.

@Red Haired Savage.5430 said:If you play the class you'd know.

I'm not asking anything unreasonable here. What kind of build are we talking about here where the dagger DPS is 'pathetically low'? What is that pathetically low DPS value? If there is a serious discussion about the awful dagger DPS, then the numbers that demonstrate the 'pathetically low' damage of the dagger and the build they are used in are incredibly important don't you think? I have no doubt that information is necessary to know what kind of reasonable solutions can be proposed to buff the dagger damage.

Am I really asking too much? Do you think any other objective person or group (say Anet maybe) might not be wondering the same thing if they just happened to chance on this thread like the OP is hoping they would?

@wolverine.5164 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@wolverine.5164 said:Daggers precise cut, focused slash and keen strike needs to be checked, it's base dmg is patheticly low, even with the 15% critical dmg increase if it crits... in my opinion it should be at least 20% to be fair, for keen strike, the dmg is alright but the the might should change to, 2 stacks when it hits and 3 when it crits, for the daggers burst its verry simple its dmg sucks greatly, it should at least be increased a 20%, everything else is ok.After the Attaker's Insight nerf i could clearly see dmg reduccion to a point that i decided to make this post.

It really isn't too low IMO. Seems to be just about right currently. Spellbreaker was slightly overtuned before the last patch.Though I do wish they split it, and made the damage higher in PvE, maybe WvW as well.

@"Luna.6203" said:

my suggestion is:

look at this trait: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sun_and_Moon_Style and tell me it do not deserve some damage boost cd reduction or something... just like any other weapon damage traits.

I just wanted to support this topic because i would like to see dagger more useful in future patches.

but its just my personal opinion / my suggestion /feel free to disagree / and i understand it will probably never happen.

---

@whoknocks.4935 said:Why you have to take it as an attack? It is just truth.1st: because: "you are doing something wrong and you didnt understand the profession" if its not offensive quote and i dont know what is.2nd: its not truth. Dagger is definitely not purely pvp/wvw weapon. Its also great in pve. For example in fractals i prefer dagger/axe//axe/dagger build instead of raid meta damage build. i know its very popular now to use meta everywhere. whatever u change one trait. u are no longer

meta

and its makes you bad :#

@whoknocks.4935 said:Same as a druid who complains of staff not being able to to enough dps, it has a completely different purpose which is healing and utilities, same as dagger.There you trying to compare healing spec and damage spec. come on...

@whoknocks.4935 said:You can't give dagger the damage of axe while maintaining it's boon rip and stun and unblockable.Axe still gives you one dash and one range attack(2x) and instead of removing boons it gives you boons. instead of crit damage axe gives you extra damage to low hp target etc.. so what's so different here ? real difference is damage...

@whoknocks.4935 said:Each weapon serve different purposes, why is it hard to understand and to accept?still both weapon are damage weapons. Not like druid staff which is healing weapon.

@whoknocks.4935 said:Not all weapons can be viable to become meta pve dps, dagger is focused on pvp and wvw, for pve dps use something else.I dont care about meta dps .. we just talk about small damage boost. its doesnt mean it must be meta .. pls stop this "meta dps" nonsense not everyone ctrl+C-ctrl+V builds.

Meta builds especially in pve means that with that particular build you can achieve the best max dps rotation, if then you wanna be swag as you said and not playing meta builds, and you want to play dagger to do dps then don't complain if you don't achieve max dps, you decided to play a weapon not made for dps but again for utility. I am talking mainly dagger main hand btw.And why you feel the comparison with stafd druid is so odd? Dagger is used to set up the burst skills with CC options, to gap close to the enemy and to rip boons, staff is used to support.

As I said you can't give the dagger the same damage of axe, or you just make axe completely useless.

Look for example mace, it is obviously a dagger underdog, no point on playing mace (talking of pvp and wvw) when instead you have dagger, so if you buff dagger damage too, babye axe as well.

If you are free to play everything you want as long as you are having fun, but if you wanna achieve the best dps output in pve or play the stronger builds in pvp and wvw you have to play meta, simple as that.

It is just an utopia a world where every single weapon is viable to achieve top dps and viable for pvp and wvw and so it's just player taste which one to use, the game is so unbalanced so we have to go with the meta.

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Red Haired Savage.5430 said:If you play the class you'd know.

Because as Oglaf said: Seperate these attacks and give it a damage buff in PvE where it's utility is pretty much wasted anyway.

That doesn't answer my question at all, and has nothing to do with what makes someone conclude dagger damage is pathetically low. In fact, it's a nonsense answer to my question ... almost like you think that if you answer me with nonsense, I'm just going to accept that.

So again: What is the build we are talking about that has daggers at pathetically low damage? What is the value of the DPS that build gives?

@Yannir.4132 said:

@wolverine.5164 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@wolverine.5164 said:Daggers precise cut, focused slash and keen strike needs to be checked, it's base dmg is patheticly low, even with the 15% critical dmg increase if it crits... in my opinion it should be at least 20% to be fair, for keen strike, the dmg is alright but the the might should change to, 2 stacks when it hits and 3 when it crits, for the daggers burst its verry simple its dmg sucks greatly, it should at least be increased a 20%, everything else is ok.After the Attaker's Insight nerf i could clearly see dmg reduccion to a point that i decided to make this post.

This is more likely closer to reality ... It's not the highest, but it's not so pathetically low like the OP wants people to think. Yes, they could split it and only they can understand why they don't implement more splits that they now have access to. Seems to me like they are actually REVERTING lots of the splits they have put in since they started using them :confused:

Simply put, I don't think there is anything deficient about daggers, including it's damage. It's certainly not pathetically low, especially if someone thinks about how to get the most from the SB traits and dagger effects.

@whoknocks.4935 said:Meta builds especially in pve means that with that particular build you can achieve the best max dps rotation, if then you wanna be swag as you said and not playing meta builds, and you want to play dagger to do dps then don't complain if you don't achieve max dps, you decided to play a weapon not made for dps but again for utility. I am talking mainly dagger main hand btw.And why you feel the comparison with stafd druid is so odd? Dagger is used to set up the burst skills with CC options, to gap close to the enemy and to rip boons, staff is used to support.

I never said that im not using meta build. Among of variety of builds that im using. There are some meta or close to meta. Still i have to bend this builds according to specific situation. Fact that dagger give you dash do not mean it is like support staff. Weapons are designed that way because there are melee. You are melee and you need some mobility. Is greatsword support becouse you have a lot of moblity in it ?

@whoknocks.4935 said:As I said you can't give the dagger the same damage of axe, or you just make axe completely useless.

I never said dagger damage should be equal to axe. What im saing is dagger damage could be better. And i added constructive idea how to achieve that through dagger trait. ...just suggestion

@whoknocks.4935 said:Look for example mace, it is obviously a dagger underdog, no point on playing mace (talking of pvp and wvw) when instead you have dagger, so if you buff dagger damage too, babye axe as well.

Mace still will be option especially if you are not into spellbreaker spec. same for axe. and btw dagger stun is not that superior.

@whoknocks.4935 said:If you are free to play everything you want as long as you are having fun, but if you wanna achieve the best dps output in pve or play the stronger builds in pvp and wvw you have to play meta, simple as that.

Achieve max possible personal dps is not always best way how to succeed on encounter.Meta builds in pvp and wvw is definitely not what you have to play. definitely not!!!BTW. Im not free to play. got game since pre order. I got guild with 4 raid squads with one open raid. I have 700 pvp games played etc..

@whoknocks.4935 said:It is just an utopia a world where every single weapon is viable to achieve top dps and viable for pvp and wvw and so it's just player taste which one to use, the game is so unbalanced so we have to go with the meta.

I really feel like its goes off topic.Again i dont talk about meta. I dont talk achiving max posible dps. And definitely not saying dagger should be the weapon to achieve max possible dps.I believe all weapons should be viable as much as possible. And you might want to swap weapons according to situation. It is absolutely fine.

I just added suggestion. If you disagree it is fine but please stop arguing / insulting pople with statements that we dont understand class or we dont understand game because we are free to play newbie. Thank you.

@Obtena.7952 said:Yes, they could split it and only they can understand why they don't implement more splits that they now have access to. Seems to me like they are actually REVERTING lots of the splits they have put in since they started using them :confused:

They are being cautious with splitting because they do want to keep track of them as they go, or that's my guess. They ARE reverting some splits but they're also splitting new skills every patch so it isn't really tilted either way.

@Obtena.7952 said:That doesn't answer my question at all, and has nothing to do with what makes someone conclude dagger damage is pathetically low. In fact, it's a nonsense answer to my question ... almost like you think that if you answer me with nonsense, I'm just going to accept that.

So again: What is the build we are talking about that has daggers at pathetically low damage? What is the value of the DPS that build gives?

@Yannir.4132 said:

@wolverine.5164 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@wolverine.5164 said:Daggers precise cut, focused slash and keen strike needs to be checked, it's base dmg is patheticly low, even with the 15% critical dmg increase if it crits... in my opinion it should be at least 20% to be fair, for keen strike, the dmg is alright but the the might should change to, 2 stacks when it hits and 3 when it crits, for the daggers burst its verry simple its dmg sucks greatly, it should at least be increased a 20%, everything else is ok.After the Attaker's Insight nerf i could clearly see dmg reduccion to a point that i decided to make this post.

It's any power build and dagger has less damage when compared to even mace AA (I'm not comparing skills 2-5 because they all do different things). Simple math on a 100% critical hit chance build with about 265% crit damage and full might (I did Assassin's gear just to make sure it had 100% crit chance). When compared to a single AA chain of mace you'd get about 13.2k damage and in the same time you'd get about 2 1/3 of a chain of AA from dagger you get about 10.6k damage...thats mace. Now looking at it compared to Axe a single AA chain of Axe will get you about 20.8k damage and in that span you can get about 2 2/3 of a chain of AA from dagger and you'd get about 12.9k damage from that. As I stated before if you bothered to play the class these things would be crystal clear to you. Before you argue anything else we are talking PvE where the dagger's skills for pulling boons is almost wasted, also the healing from sun and moon isn't enough to make up for it in that time you're healing for maybe around 800hp.

@Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:That doesn't answer my question at all, and has nothing to do with what makes someone conclude dagger damage is pathetically low. In fact, it's a nonsense answer to my question ... almost like you think that if you answer me with nonsense, I'm just going to accept that.

So again: What is the build we are talking about that has daggers at pathetically low damage? What is the value of the DPS that build gives?

@Yannir.4132 said:

@wolverine.5164 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@wolverine.5164 said:Daggers precise cut, focused slash and keen strike needs to be checked, it's base dmg is patheticly low, even with the 15% critical dmg increase if it crits... in my opinion it should be at least 20% to be fair, for keen strike, the dmg is alright but the the might should change to, 2 stacks when it hits and 3 when it crits, for the daggers burst its verry simple its dmg sucks greatly, it should at least be increased a 20%, everything else is ok.After the Attaker's Insight nerf i could clearly see dmg reduccion to a point that i decided to make this post.

I don't think you understand what I'm asking for here. It's not just ANY power build will work with a dagger ... that's nonsense. I can see how you making these generalizations follows through with your siding with dagger damage being pathetically low. I want to know what the build is, and how much DPS it does. These are not unreasonable requests. I am not interested in piecing together a picture of what kind of damage you can get with daggers based on some percent of this and that.

Let me accelerate this for you; unless you have a target value from Anet for where they want dagger DPS to be, all this 'pathetically low' talk is a worthless descriptor. No one knows what Anet intends for daggers to be at and no one can justify making it better, just because they think it should be, for whatever reason.

I play a full Assassin's, 100% crit build and the amount of passive healing you get with it is very respectable. No, I don't know what DPS I get is, but I do know it's no where near pathetic; it kills things as fast as any other high dps build I have on Warrior and other classes too. It's certainly not low enough to make THIS kind of fuss over. This alone is reason enough to not adjust anything on dagger. Frankly, you guys are just not making builds that take advantages of the strength of the weapon if you want to characterize it as 'pathetic'. No wonder people don't know what they are talking about. It's not even reasonable to expect a threshold of damage from it because you don't even know what the intention is in the first place.

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vJAQNAoYUnMdAt6ideAmdAcigleA7YOcC2eGBgCwSDvJfl7yA-jxBBQBkUJIAOFAlR5XAeCAjS9HDpPoG7PQGg8xA-e

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:That doesn't answer my question at all, and has nothing to do with what makes someone conclude dagger damage is pathetically low. In fact, it's a nonsense answer to my question ... almost like you think that if you answer me with nonsense, I'm just going to accept that.

So again: What is the build we are talking about that has daggers at pathetically low damage? What is the value of the DPS that build gives?

@Yannir.4132 said:

@wolverine.5164 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@wolverine.5164 said:Daggers precise cut, focused slash and keen strike needs to be checked, it's base dmg is patheticly low, even with the 15% critical dmg increase if it crits... in my opinion it should be at least 20% to be fair, for keen strike, the dmg is alright but the the might should change to, 2 stacks when it hits and 3 when it crits, for the daggers burst its verry simple its dmg sucks greatly, it should at least be increased a 20%, everything else is ok.After the Attaker's Insight nerf i could clearly see dmg reduccion to a point that i decided to make this post.

RIFLE?!?!? Really? Are you just here to troll us? Please stop it.

@Yannir.4132 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Yes, they could split it and only they can understand why they don't implement more splits that they now have access to. Seems to me like they are actually REVERTING lots of the splits they have put in since they started using them :confused:

It is a shame though, cuz personally I 110% believe in splitting skills to be the absolute best solution to balance issues.

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@Yannir.4132 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Yes, they could split it and only they can understand why they don't implement more splits that they now have access to. Seems to me like they are actually REVERTING lots of the splits they have put in since they started using them :confused:

It is the best way I think as well. Unfortunately it is slow but IMO that's the only way to do it right. That sweeping skill split patch they did a while back now was a mistake IMO because in their need to make it look big, they touched on skills that didn't need touching. Now they are cleaning up the mess they made.

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:That doesn't answer my question at all, and has nothing to do with what makes someone conclude dagger damage is pathetically low. In fact, it's a nonsense answer to my question ... almost like you think that if you answer me with nonsense, I'm just going to accept that.

So again: What is the build we are talking about that has daggers at pathetically low damage? What is the value of the DPS that build gives?

@Yannir.4132 said:

@wolverine.5164 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@wolverine.5164 said:Daggers precise cut, focused slash and keen strike needs to be checked, it's base dmg is patheticly low, even with the 15% critical dmg increase if it crits... in my opinion it should be at least 20% to be fair, for keen strike, the dmg is alright but the the might should change to, 2 stacks when it hits and 3 when it crits, for the daggers burst its verry simple its dmg sucks greatly, it should at least be increased a 20%, everything else is ok.After the Attaker's Insight nerf i could clearly see dmg reduccion to a point that i decided to make this post.

you can play anything that does atleast some dmg in open world and dungeons and your dps wont rly matter, that said, your build is a mess tbh and wouldnt even get close to anything raid related....i dont even play pve, but ive played this game long enough and seen builds and numbers they put out to know that your build pales against them dmg wiseraids are high endgame content and when you want to do them fast and clean you need every ounce of dmg, which dagger just doesnt have

end of story:play whatever you want in content where it doesnt matter, but dont go around telling ppl that they are wrong when you have no clue about what numbets need to be seen for a weapon to be competetive

@"Obtena.7952" said:I play a full Assassin's, 100% crit build and the amount of passive healing you get with it is very respectable. No, I don't know what DPS I get is, but I do know it's no where near pathetic; it kills things as fast as any other high dps build I have on Warrior and other classes too. It's certainly not low enough to make THIS kind of fuss over. This alone is reason enough to not adjust anything on dagger. Frankly, you guys are just not making builds that take advantages of the strength of the weapon if you want to characterize it as 'pathetic'. No wonder people don't know what they are talking about. It's not even reasonable to expect a threshold of damage from it because you don't even know what the intention is in the first place.

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vJAQNAoYUnMdAt6ideAmdAcigleA7YOcC2eGBgCwSDvJfl7yA-jxBBQBkUJIAOFAlR5XAeCAjS9HDpPoG7PQGg8xA-e

Now i understand why some people forcing other to use meta builds.

Few questions:Why you do not know dps ? Than go and try it is takes few minutes. I can assure you. You will be highly disappointed.Why did you join this discussion if you do not know ?Actually im still thinking if you are serious or it is some kind of joke because this build is just... i have no words... what is the purpose of this build btw ?