Dagger

[whoknocks.4935]

@Luna.6203 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:I play a full Assassin's, 100% crit build and the amount of passive healing you get with it is very respectable. No, I don't know what DPS I get is, but I do know it's no where near pathetic; it kills things as fast as any other high dps build I have on Warrior and other classes too. It's certainly not low enough to make THIS kind of fuss over. This alone is reason enough to not adjust anything on dagger. Frankly, you guys are just not making builds that take advantages of the strength of the weapon if you want to characterize it as 'pathetic'. No wonder people don't know what they are talking about. It's not even reasonable to expect a threshold of damage from it because you don't even know what the intention is in the first place.

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vJAQNAoYUnMdAt6ideAmdAcigleA7YOcC2eGBgCwSDvJfl7yA-jxBBQBkUJIAOFAlR5XAeCAjS9HDpPoG7PQGg8xA-e

Now i understand why some people forcing other to use meta builds.

Few questions:

Why you do not know dps ?

Than go and try it is takes few minutes. I can assure you. You will be highly disappointed.

Why did you join this discussion if you do not know ?

Actually im still thinking if you are serious or it is some kind of joke because this build is just... i have no words...

what is the purpose of this build btw ?

So I'm here again, what do you exactly play and want to be buffed?Dagger/dagger? Dagger/axe? Axe/dagger?Tell me exactly the skills of dagger you wanna boost the dps.

[Luna.6203]

@whoknocks.4935 said:So I'm here again, what do you exactly play and want to be buffed?

Hi again!

Well i assumed that you talking to me because i have no clue why you ansfering me through quoting someone elses post.

Look im not even author of this thread. It is not about me and what i suggest. Please do not ask what my sugestion was. Just roll your mouse wheel up.I feel like this discussion is stuck in circle. I mean what is this ?

@whoknocks.4935 said:Dagger/dagger? Dagger/axe? Axe/dagger?This is some of meta builds ?I belive we talk about dagger okay ? 8) at this point im not sure.. I think we can start to talk about rifle as well. ;)

But okay... i think i get it ? Statement: Trait -Sun and Moon Style- is sux pls boots it... is too unspecific. Is that it ?I do not wanted to be more specific because it cause reaction like.. OMG it would be OP. War is already OP. Yesterday i was facetanking war in pvp with bow auto attack and i get **** pls nerf war!. etc.. you know what im talking about.. I can kill 3/4 deadeyes just popping 3 sec block... its self explanatory ;)

Well.. Let me go deeper regardless.

Healing from off hand is trash. It is practically useless.Quikness proc is nice but it is not enough.That dagger trait is sooo sooo poor.. compare this trait with other weapons traits.ex.:GS -> plus damage + mights + rechargeAxe -> 300 feroc. + extra adr. + recharge

Dagger damage is low...So what about add 5-10% dagger damage ? Or add additional 10% - 15% crit damage ?What about making 7% healing from all dagger skills ... not just off hand. Maybe a bit more than 7%.. 10 % ? or heal you even if you do not crit ?There is another idea:

@"Red Haired Savage.5430" said:I would definitely be fore something like this, it wouldn't even need to be just a static power increase, you could make it do something similar to forceful greatsword, but instead of might on a crit maybe we add vulnerability on crit? There are lots of things we could do with it, I just think vulnerability on a crit would fit thematically with Sun and Moon style. Also if it'd be too OP in PvP/WvW they could just split the trait.

Dagger simply do not provide anything special except boon removal which is related to spec and its mostly not usefull so mostly dagger is not usefull (in pve).YES! You can use dagger in open word. But fun fact is that weapon is not good for open word.Without that boon removal you have just terrible underperforming weapon.It is just pity. I realy like adea of dagger warrior. :'(

BTW i started playing warrior after POF because of this spec!

[Obtena.7952]

@Luna.6203 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:I play a full Assassin's, 100% crit build and the amount of passive healing you get with it is very respectable. No, I don't know what DPS I get is, but I do know it's no where near pathetic; it kills things as fast as any other high dps build I have on Warrior and other classes too. It's certainly not low enough to make THIS kind of fuss over. This alone is reason enough to not adjust anything on dagger. Frankly, you guys are just not making builds that take advantages of the strength of the weapon if you want to characterize it as 'pathetic'. No wonder people don't know what they are talking about. It's not even reasonable to expect a threshold of damage from it because you don't even know what the intention is in the first place.

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vJAQNAoYUnMdAt6ideAmdAcigleA7YOcC2eGBgCwSDvJfl7yA-jxBBQBkUJIAOFAlR5XAeCAjS9HDpPoG7PQGg8xA-e

Now i understand why some people forcing other to use meta builds.

Few questions:

Why you do not know dps ?

Than go and try it is takes few minutes. I can assure you. You will be highly disappointed.

Why did you join this discussion if you do not know ?

Actually im still thinking if you are serious or it is some kind of joke because this build is just... i have no words...

what is the purpose of this build btw ?

I have a few questions for you ... do you know how much DPS that build does? What are you asking to get buffed? The OP didn't actually define a problem, so when someone says dagger damage = garbage, it's a fair question to ask what that garbage damage is ... yet no one seems to have a definite answer. It all comes back to "well, it's not this" where "this" is a deceptive way to say "meta".

Let's put this out there RIGHT now ... daggers are not going to be meta, so WHAT DPS do people expect it to have and WHAT DPS does it get now? Stop being vague because vagueness is not going to result in any sort of reasonable discussion about how to fix what people believe is wrong with dagger DPS.

[whoknocks.4935]

@Luna.6203 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:So I'm here again, what do you exactly play and want to be buffed?

Hi again!

Well i assumed that you talking to me because i have no clue why you ansfering me through quoting someone elses post.

Look im not even author of this thread. It is not about me and what i suggest. Please do not ask what my sugestion was. Just roll your mouse wheel up.I feel like this discussion is stuck in circle. I mean what is this ?

@whoknocks.4935 said:Dagger/dagger? Dagger/axe? Axe/dagger?This is some of meta builds ?I belive we talk about dagger okay ? 8) at this point im not sure.. I think we can start to talk about rifle as well. ;)

But okay... i think i get it ? Statement: Trait -Sun and Moon Style- is sux pls boots it... is too unspecific. Is that it ?I do not wanted to be more specific because it cause reaction like.. OMG it would be OP. War is already OP. Yesterday i was facetanking war in pvp with bow auto attack and i get **** pls nerf war!. etc.. you know what im talking about.. I can kill 3/4 deadeyes just popping 3 sec block... its self explanatory ;)

Well.. Let me go deeper regardless.

Healing from off hand is trash. It is practically useless.Quikness proc is nice but it is not enough.That dagger trait is sooo sooo poor.. compare this trait with other weapons traits.ex.:GS -> plus damage + mights + rechargeAxe -> 300 feroc. + extra adr. + recharge

Dagger damage is low...So what about add 5-10% dagger damage ? Or add additional 10% - 15% crit damage ?What about making 7% healing from all dagger skills ... not just off hand. Maybe a bit more than 7%.. 10 % ? or heal you even if you do not crit ?There is another idea:

@"Red Haired Savage.5430" said:I would definitely be fore something like this, it wouldn't even need to be just a static power increase, you could make it do something similar to forceful greatsword, but instead of might on a crit maybe we add vulnerability on crit? There are lots of things we could do with it, I just think vulnerability on a crit would fit thematically with Sun and Moon style. Also if it'd be too OP in PvP/WvW they could just split the trait.

Dagger simply do not provide anything special except boon removal which is related to spec and its mostly not usefull so mostly dagger is not usefull (in pve).YES! You can use dagger in open word. But fun fact is that weapon is not good for open word.Without that boon removal you have just terrible underperforming weapon.It is just pity. I realy like adea of dagger warrior. :'(

BTW i started playing warrior after POF because of this spec!

You said a lot of things but said anything. Again I don't understand, you want dagger deal more damage in PVE?Are you talking only about pve?

10% damage is pointless and you won't see any pratical change, if you do 2000 damage now, you will do 2200, barely noticeable.

And have you noticed the dagger main hand skills and the burst?First is autoattack obviously, second is a 6(8) sec. slow animation gap closer, third is a stun maybe good for breakbars, and the burst is a slow snimation gap closer too.So dagger main hand even with a damage boost won't be good to become a dps weapon in a dps rotation in my opinion.dagger offhand might be worth looking but it's already pretty high damage on it's own.healing yourself while deal damage is pretty useless in pve, probably only good for open world.

If you are talking of pvp and wvw i dunno what to say, because dagger is used in any spellbreaker build and not because of his damage, but bc of the utilities it offers.

@Luna.6203 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:Dagger/dagger? Dagger/axe? Axe/dagger?This is some of meta builds ?I belive we talk about dagger okay ? 8) at this point im not sure.. I think we can start to talk about rifle as well. ;)

What the hell are you saying? So you play dagger alone with no offhand? xD Maybe that's why you don't like the damage.

I told you to explain me detailed where you see the dagger lacking damage, on skill2? On skill5? Just say it instead of talking about traitlines.

What weapon set you use with dagger?

And no we won't talk about rifle because of what I linked is this:Dagger/dagger? Dagger/axe? Axe/dagger? Those seems to incluse dagger in any possible way, which is the thread talking about: DAGGER.

[Luna.6203]

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@Luna.6203 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:So I'm here again, what do you exactly play and want to be buffed?

Hi again!

Well i assumed that you talking to me because i have no clue why you ansfering me through quoting someone elses post.

Look im not even author of this thread. It is not about me and what i suggest. Please do not ask what my sugestion was. Just roll your mouse wheel up.I feel like this discussion is stuck in circle. I mean what is this ?

@whoknocks.4935 said:Dagger/dagger? Dagger/axe? Axe/dagger?This is some of meta builds ?I belive we talk about dagger okay ? 8) at this point im not sure.. I think we can start to talk about rifle as well. ;)

But okay... i think i get it ? Statement: Trait -Sun and Moon Style- is sux pls boots it... is too unspecific. Is that it ?I do not wanted to be more specific because it cause reaction like.. OMG it would be OP. War is already OP. Yesterday i was facetanking war in pvp with bow auto attack and i get **** pls nerf war!. etc.. you know what im talking about.. I can kill 3/4 deadeyes just popping 3 sec block... its self explanatory ;)

Well.. Let me go deeper regardless.

Healing from off hand is trash. It is practically useless.Quikness proc is nice but it is not enough.That dagger trait is sooo sooo poor.. compare this trait with other weapons traits.ex.:GS -> plus damage + mights + rechargeAxe -> 300 feroc. + extra adr. + recharge

Dagger damage is low...So what about add 5-10% dagger damage ? Or add additional 10% - 15% crit damage ?What about making 7% healing from all dagger skills ... not just off hand. Maybe a bit more than 7%.. 10 % ? or heal you even if you do not crit ?There is another idea:

@"Red Haired Savage.5430" said:I would definitely be fore something like this, it wouldn't even need to be just a static power increase, you could make it do something similar to forceful greatsword, but instead of might on a crit maybe we add vulnerability on crit? There are lots of things we could do with it, I just think vulnerability on a crit would fit thematically with Sun and Moon style. Also if it'd be too OP in PvP/WvW they could just split the trait.

Dagger simply do not provide anything special except boon removal which is related to spec and its mostly not usefull so mostly dagger is not usefull (in pve).YES! You can use dagger in open word. But fun fact is that weapon is not good for open word.Without that boon removal you have just terrible underperforming weapon.It is just pity. I realy like adea of dagger warrior. :'(

BTW i started playing warrior after POF because of this spec!

You said a lot of things but said anything. Again I don't understand, you want dagger deal more damage in PVE?Are you talking only about pve?

10% damage is pointless and you won't see any pratical change, if you do 2000 damage now, you will do 2200, barely noticeable.

And have you noticed the dagger main hand skills and the burst?First is autoattack obviously, second is a 6(8) sec. slow animation gap closer, third is a stun maybe good for breakbars, and the burst is a slow snimation gap closer too.So dagger main hand even with a damage boost won't be good to become a dps weapon in a dps rotation in my opinion.dagger offhand might be worth looking but it's already pretty high damage on it's own.healing yourself while deal damage is pretty useless in pve, probably only good for open world.

If you are talking of pvp and wvw i dunno what to say, because dagger is used in any spellbreaker build and not because of his damage, but bc of the utilities it offers.

@Luna.6203 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:Dagger/dagger? Dagger/axe? Axe/dagger?This is some of meta builds ?I belive we talk about dagger okay ? 8) at this point im not sure.. I think we can start to talk about rifle as well. ;)

What the hell are you saying? So you play dagger alone with no offhand? xD Maybe that's why you don't like the damage.

I told you to explain me detailed where you see the dagger lacking damage, on skill2? On skill5? Just say it instead of talking about traitlines.

What weapon set you use with dagger?

And no we won't talk about rifle because of what I linked is this:Dagger/dagger? Dagger/axe? Axe/dagger? Those seems to incluse dagger in any possible way, which is the thread talking about: DAGGER.

im going to answer you one by one ok ?

please read... im getting really bored to repeat myself over and over.

@whoknocks.4935 said:You said a lot of things but said anything. Again I don't understand, you want dagger deal more damage in PVE?Are you talking only about pve?Im talking about trait. that incule pve and pvp if you chose to. trait can be split.

@whoknocks.4935 said:10% damage is pointless and you won't see any pratical change, if you do 2000 damage now, you will do 2200, barely noticeable.It is not. damage*crit multipler ... better than nothing. Im open for better suggestion.

@whoknocks.4935 said:What the hell are you saying? So you play dagger alone with no offhand? xD Maybe that's why you don't like the damage.yea! im playing without off-hand... :/

@whoknocks.4935 said:First is autoattack obviously, second is a 6(8) sec. slow animation gap closer, third is a stun maybe good for breakbars, and the burst is a slow snimation gap closer too.Its realy bad for bars. its just interupt. But its ok skill. dash is bit slow but you have two and still better than axe dash. no problem there.

@whoknocks.4935 said:I told you to explain me detailed where you see the dagger lacking damage, on skill2? On skill5? Just say it instead of talking about traitlines.Trait includes all. Speaking of which yea skill5 could be better in base i thing.

@whoknocks.4935 said:What weapon set you use with dagger?ex.:first:@Luna.6203 said:For example in fractals i prefer dagger/axe//axe/daggerbtw boost 10% to dagger in that dagger/axe//axe dagger would make a difference it would not be useless.second:Im using clasic gs//dagger/shiled for pvp. but in pvp im using other t2-trait and i would not use it there anyway.

And no we won't talk about rifle because of what I linked is this:Dagger/dagger? Dagger/axe? Axe/dagger? Those seems to incluse dagger in any possible way, which is the thread talking about: DAGGER.Well you quotes post with rifle build...

---

Ohh and yeah! healing would be great for open world.

It is maybe bit confusing. This thread is about dagger boost overall BUT Im talking specifically about trait -Sun and Moon Style-. !!! repeat: Just about trait!!! its does not matter what build you use or if you decide to use it.

Furthermore i dont expect they will design dagger just like i want/because i said so. NO! it is just suggestion that you can be considered/altered/refused. When i say for example 10%... its example.

Is it clear for you now?

[otto.5684]

I was severely disappointed that daggers damage is pathetic in PvE. We have been using gs and axes since game lunch, and I really wanted to play something new. It has such cool animations, but it is all wasted.

As others mentioned, the utility functionality has limited use in PvE.

[starlinvf.1358]

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@Yannir.4132 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:Yes, they could split it and only they can understand why they don't implement more splits that they now have access to. Seems to me like they are actually REVERTING lots of the splits they have put in since they started using them :confused:

They are being cautious with splitting because they do want to keep track of them as they go, or that's my guess. They ARE reverting some splits but they're also splitting new skills every patch so it isn't really tilted either way.

It is a shame though, cuz personally I 110% believe in splitting skills to be the absolute best solution to balance issues.

Splitting is just crutch to the real problem...... ESpec balance being built around either PvP or Raids in an almost exclusionary manner, because the types of fights they create are almost polar opposites.

The real solution is to make Raid Bosses more like PvP combat in nature, which emphasizes mobility, counter play, fight mechanics, windows of vulnerability, and a need for coordinated defenses. With the way Raids are built now, too much of the fight is loaded on raw DPS, and its caused to a cascade effect of Role compression to allow for more slots dedicated to convoluted DPS rotations.

I'm not suggesting it be based on 1v1 fights... but there is a clear problem where most raid bosses can be descried as "trying to keep it from moving around, so we can unload AOEs on it". Thats essentially what created the Zerks meta in dungeons.

[Oglaf.1074]

@starlinvf.1358 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@Yannir.4132 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:Yes, they could split it and only they can understand why they don't implement more splits that they now have access to. Seems to me like they are actually REVERTING lots of the splits they have put in since they started using them :confused:

They are being cautious with splitting because they do want to keep track of them as they go, or that's my guess. They ARE reverting some splits but they're also splitting new skills every patch so it isn't really tilted either way.

It is a shame though, cuz personally I 110% believe in splitting skills to be the absolute best solution to balance issues.

Splitting is just crutch to the real problem...... ESpec balance being built around either PvP or Raids in an almost exclusionary manner, because the types of fights they create are almost polar opposites.

The real solution is to make Raid Bosses more like PvP combat in nature, which emphasizes mobility, counter play, fight mechanics, windows of vulnerability, and a need for coordinated defenses. With the way Raids are built now, too much of the fight is loaded on raw DPS, and its caused to a cascade effect of Role compression to allow for more slots dedicated to convoluted DPS rotations.

I'm not suggesting it be based on 1v1 fights... but there is a clear problem where most raid bosses can be descried as "trying to keep it from moving around, so we can unload AOEs on it". Thats essentially what created the Zerks meta in dungeons.

No. You're never going to be able to balance PvP and PvE by trying to treat/make them the same. The past history of this game (as well as gaming history in general) has proved that it will never work. If you are gonna make a game that has both, you're going to have to split things like this.

[Luna.6203]

@otto.5684 said:I was severely disappointed that daggers damage is pathetic in PvE. We have been using gs and axes since game lunch, and I really wanted to play something new. It has such cool animations, but it is all wasted.

As others mentioned, the utility functionality has limited use in PvE.

Hey, sorry for late answer. I had realy busy weekend. Im glad at least someone agree. Btw thanks for advice about player O****a. Even if its deleted i saw it on saturday and its true and i already realized it myself.

BTW i think they dont even need to split something. They can boost dagger in pvp as well... look the only reason why we have dagger in pvp is becouse it have utility. Your main CC and damage flows from gs and shield. Dagger is just filler. Dagger as off hand is sux in both pve and pvp. In main hand damage aspect is ridiculous as well.

And right now warror is starting to be really bad in pvp. I feel like im more warror with my ranger and i can open damage at 1500 range with longbow. They went too far with nerfs and boosting other classes which leaves warrior at below average spot.

Well lets hope they do something new balance patch.

[Kiroshima.8497]

I'm honestly not sure what the point of dagger is. The slow is tiny, like 1.5 seconds. What is that even supposed to do, let you dodge 1 attack? The interrupt is nice, but damn that should belong to Mace. Mace 3 does half the damage, and if Dagger 3 interrupts, it's one-third the damage. What? The only thing in this entire kit that feels like a mage killer is aura slicer, except it takes forever to do the leap, and the burst skill (steals 2 boons).

Then you have OH dagger. Dagger 4 is worthless outside other weapons. But damn, a 3.0 power ratio on inactivity is insane, that's 8% less damage than a T3 Killshot, which a fraction of the cast time. But it doesn't even perform like its GW1 namesake skills. Wastrel's Collapse is an assassin dagger skill, shadowstep and knock the target down if they aren't casting. Wastrel's Demise is basically reverse confusion, it damages them UNTIL they use a skill. Wastrel's Worry is just delayed heavy damage, removed if the target casts a spell. Note that the last 2 skills require a successfully cast skill, so if we were to port that to GW2, the slow from Dagger 2 and Slow Counter trait would help with it quite a bit. Heck, even making it a low damage shadowstep knockdown would be pretty sweet instead of just spike damage, then move the damage to other skills.

There's also Dagger 5. It's an odd skill, a giant forward cleaving attack that grants you swiftness and applies vulnerability... Oh, and it reflects. Thankfully, it is also more damage over cast time than the auto chain, but once it's gone (and dagger 4), you have no damage again.

Speaking of the auto chain, this thing has less damage output than the Sword chain. Literally each ratio of dagger is lower than sword. .4, .4, and .85 on the dagger, vs .6, .6, and 1.0 on the sword. Even if we give the warrior 100% crit rate for those 15% crit boosts, that still doesn't make it comparable and doesn't even include the bleeding that sword has (which gains benefits from might). Even accounting for the cast time increase on the sword chain, its power ratio per second is higher.

And speaking of sword, that thing lets you stick better too thanks to Savage Leap having 600 range (aura slicer has 300) and it applies a cripple that is double the duration of the slow.

So I ask again... what is the point of dagger? It's barely a "spellbreaker" within its own kit. There is a single boon rip skill, the rest of it is just spike damage on an interrupt. You know what else used to have spike damage after an interrupt? Mace/Shield/GS warrior back the old days. Too bad stun breaks are a dime a dozen nowadays.

[Luna.6203]

@"Kiroshima.8497" said:I'm honestly not sure what the point of dagger is....

Point is: its cool weapon ... thats all.

Btw there is more images dagger/dagger In RL. Just for fun... enjoy ;)

---

Male:

! Female:!

Images are from TV serial spartacus. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartacus_(TV_series)

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

@Luna.6203 said:

@"Kiroshima.8497" said:I'm honestly not sure what the point of dagger is....

Point is: its cool weapon ... thats all.

Btw there is more images dagger/dagger In RL. Just for fun... enjoy ;)

---

Male:

!

Female:!

Images are from TV serial spartacus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartacus_(TV_series)

Well TBH, to me the whole Spellbreaker specialization falls to the same issues as dagger does, it doesn't really feel like it does what the description says:

The broken weapons of the Sunspears have become daggers in the hands of their descendants, which they use to strike at the very fabric of magic and strip it from their foes. They meditate to see past their enemies' defenses, and they use their adrenaline to counter attacks.

I think that if we were to strike at the very fabric of magic and strip it from our foes, our attacks when we interrupt someone we should also cause increased CD on the skill that was interrupted. Maybe we'd cause chill on interrupts to do that. I also don't know why our daggers only have 1 interrupt for a class that benefits soo much from causing interrupts why don't we at least have another interrupt on dagger offhand. For the meditations WoD and BE seem to be the only meditations that fit what Spellbreaker is about. Sight beyond sight probably needs the resistance that featherfoot grace has, also the way Spellbreaker is played you should be criting often so a skill that makes your next hit a critical makes little sense. I almost think Sight beyond sight should make your attacks unblockable to me that would fit the theme better than a single critical. So you could make featherfoot grace do something else, like intimidating aura. Imminent threat to me makes no sense for Spellbreaker, I've never had a time where its even ended up on my skill bar. It makes zero sense when compared to other skills that taunt for a longer duration and on a shorter CD.

[Loading.4503]

Just gonna throw in my 2 cents here

The problem i see with this whole discussion are 2 things

1 dagger is just simply a pvp/wvw weapon

2 everyone is looking at the weapon by itself, you gotta look at the entire sb line. I keep seeing people saying whats 1 interrupt, but the entire line and the weapon isnt meant to be a cc playstyle like a hammer or mace where u utilize the stuns, the dagger and spellbreaker line is meant to be a boonhate playstyle with the mediocre damage to peel off people

Example would be if i was fighting an ele in wvw, if i dont keep stripping all the boons the ele keeps applying say with an axe and just rely on the damage alone its gonna go nowhere, but if i use a dagger and strip boons nonstop and deal just a little bit less damage its easier to fight one. Youre probably gonna say well thats wvw, and go back to point 1

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

@"Loading.4503" said:Just gonna throw in my 2 cents here

The problem i see with this whole discussion are 2 things

1 dagger is just simply a pvp/wvw weapon

2 everyone is looking at the weapon by itself, you gotta look at the entire sb line. I keep seeing people saying whats 1 interrupt, but the entire line and the weapon isnt meant to be a cc playstyle like a hammer or mace where u utilize the stuns, the dagger and spellbreaker line is meant to be a boonhate playstyle with the mediocre damage to peel off people

Example would be if i was fighting an ele in wvw, if i dont keep stripping all the boons the ele keeps applying say with an axe and just rely on the damage alone its gonna go nowhere, but if i use a dagger and strip boons nonstop and deal just a little bit less damage its easier to fight one. Youre probably gonna say well thats wvw, and go back to point 1

The problem is that if dagger were truly a boon hate weapon our AA would strip a boon like mesmer sword.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mind_Spike

[Loading.4503]

@Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

@"Loading.4503" said:Just gonna throw in my 2 cents here

The problem i see with this whole discussion are 2 things

1 dagger is just simply a pvp/wvw weapon

2 everyone is looking at the weapon by itself, you gotta look at the entire sb line. I keep seeing people saying whats 1 interrupt, but the entire line and the weapon isnt meant to be a cc playstyle like a hammer or mace where u utilize the stuns, the dagger and spellbreaker line is meant to be a boonhate playstyle with the mediocre damage to peel off people

Example would be if i was fighting an ele in wvw, if i dont keep stripping all the boons the ele keeps applying say with an axe and just rely on the damage alone its gonna go nowhere, but if i use a dagger and strip boons nonstop and deal just a little bit less damage its easier to fight one. Youre probably gonna say well thats wvw, and go back to point 1

The problem is that if dagger were truly a boon hate weapon our AA would strip a boon like mesmer sword.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mind_Spike

You have your burst full counter which reset your burst which are on short cds and dag 3 which isnt that long of a cd also, which can strip boons pretty fast, dont think its really nescesary on the auto imo. Thats just for dagger mainhand, if u run any other cc, u get more ie shield physical skills

Besides we dont use the aa, it has low dmg according to this discussion >.>

[otto.5684]

@Loading.4503 said:Just gonna throw in my 2 cents here

The problem i see with this whole discussion are 2 things

1 dagger is just simply a pvp/wvw weapon

2 everyone is looking at the weapon by itself, you gotta look at the entire sb line. I keep seeing people saying whats 1 interrupt, but the entire line and the weapon isnt meant to be a cc playstyle like a hammer or mace where u utilize the stuns, the dagger and spellbreaker line is meant to be a boonhate playstyle with the mediocre damage to peel off people

Example would be if i was fighting an ele in wvw, if i dont keep stripping all the boons the ele keeps applying say with an axe and just rely on the damage alone its gonna go nowhere, but if i use a dagger and strip boons nonstop and deal just a little bit less damage its easier to fight one. Youre probably gonna say well thats wvw, and go back to point 1

First, there is no such thing as “PvP” or “PvE” weapons.

Second, clearly no one gives a flying fuck about none dps weapons in PvE, the game mode which the vast majority play.

Third, you know you can use other weapons with the SB line, right? So, ya, you need to look at the weapon by itself.

Forth, I really do hate it when people try to explain basic stuff in theads like this. Clearly people posting here know what the weapon is capable of. But thanks for letting us know that dagger can remove boons. Key insight.

Finally, as a comparison, Mesmer chrono dps build, sword removes a boon with aa chain, and dischanter removes 5 boons x 2 per cast. 10 fucking boons. So, there is no precedence or logic for a weapon to deal less damage in PvE cuz it casts a CC or remove a boon.

[Loading.4503]

Ok guy, im just trying to hop in the conversation here, i wasnt trying to insult anyones intelligence or anything and

I meant it does better in pvp than in pve to clarify, not that it can and should be used in one or the other game mode

And apparently people do give a flying kitten about one weapon for pve, isnt that the reason for this discussion?

Yea i know u can use other weapons as a sb, but u can only use daggers as a sb, which is what were talking about here, daggers

I wasnt trying to Explain basic knowledge to this conversation, but just pointing out how i noticed people were noticing things from one angle but not another, or i guess im just really bad at geometry in this conversation, in that case i apologize, i was never really good at math

And ok sure a mesmer can do that, but im not playing a mesmer, im playing a warrior

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

@Loading.4503 said:

@Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

@Loading.4503 said:Just gonna throw in my 2 cents here

The problem i see with this whole discussion are 2 things

1 dagger is just simply a pvp/wvw weapon

2 everyone is looking at the weapon by itself, you gotta look at the entire sb line. I keep seeing people saying whats 1 interrupt, but the entire line and the weapon isnt meant to be a cc playstyle like a hammer or mace where u utilize the stuns, the dagger and spellbreaker line is meant to be a boonhate playstyle with the mediocre damage to peel off people

Example would be if i was fighting an ele in wvw, if i dont keep stripping all the boons the ele keeps applying say with an axe and just rely on the damage alone its gonna go nowhere, but if i use a dagger and strip boons nonstop and deal just a little bit less damage its easier to fight one. Youre probably gonna say well thats wvw, and go back to point 1

The problem is that if dagger were truly a boon hate weapon our AA would strip a boon like mesmer sword.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mind_Spike

You have your burst full counter which reset your burst which are on short cds and dag 3 which isnt that long of a cd also, which can strip boons pretty fast, dont think its really nescesary on the auto imo. Thats just for dagger mainhand, if u run any other cc, u get more ie shield physical skills

Besides we dont use the aa, it has low dmg according to this discussion >.>

Exactly, we need a reason why to actually complete an AA chain (be it boon strip on AA or more damage), but the utility of stripping boons in PvE is fairly wasted outside of a few encounters so more damage would be something that would help. There are other things with dagger that doesn't make sense either like the 1.5 seconds of slow on dagger 2, or the fact that it's a 300 range leap which you can walk the 300 range in the same time, shouldn't leaps actually be a gap closer that you can't go as fast just running. Then dagger 3 if you miss your interrupt and only daze instead of stunning the enemy it's only a .25 second daze, so you can't chain dagger 4 off of it. Dagger 5 I don't know what it's supposed to be doing, I get a feeling that Anet didn't know what they wanted it to do either.

[Oglaf.1074]

Dagger being meant as a PvP-only weapon doesn’t jive with me. The entire SB specialization was at one point considered similarly up until a few patches ago when it received some fixes/love that made it viable in PvE as well.

Dagger needs the same. And it would be so easily done when you have this PvE/PvP split function in the game, too.

[Obtena.7952]

It's still 'fun' that the people who claim daggers have bad DPS still haven't really quantified what that 'bad' DPS is ... and where they think dagger DPS should be. Not much value in 2 pages in this thread without those bits of information.

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

@Obtena.7952 said:It's still 'fun' that the people who claim daggers have bad DPS still haven't really quantified what that 'bad' DPS is ... and where they think dagger DPS should be. Not much value in 2 pages in this thread without those bits of information.

I ran you numbers on the AA chain, the rest of it is simple looking at the wiki and seeing how much less damage daggers do.

For example, I'll put dagger 2 up against sword and axe 2 (not doing mace because it's a block skill).Aura SlicerDamage: 440 (1.2)?Slow (1½s): Skills and actions are slower.Combo Finisher: LeapRange: 300

Savage LeapDamage: 609 (1.66)?Cripple (3s): -50% Movement SpeedCombo Finisher: LeapRange: 600

Cyclone AxeDamage (2x): 646 (1.76)?Fury (2s): 20% Critical ChanceVulnerability (8s): 3% Incoming Damage, 3% Incoming Condition DamageNumber of Targets: 5Combo Finisher: WhirlRange: 130

Now it doesn't take a much to see that dagger just has lower numbers than its compatriots, which includes sword and that's a condi weapon. :wink: I can compare other skills if you'd like too, but it's more of the same. For example I'd compare dagger 4 to sword 3 and axe 5 since the 3 of those skills are meant to be the big damage skills(I'll let you look at the wiki on this though).

Edit: I almost forgot when I ran the numbers on the AA chain that was vs single target, which dagger can only do 2 targets the rest of the single handed weapons can do 3 targets.

[Obtena.7952]

That doesn't give me the answer we are looking for here. You want to justify more DPS ... what is the DPS now and how much more do you want? It's not about seeing some dissected, trivial analysis of AA chain. If people are going to argue that Dagger DPS is relatively low (assuming they are comparing to meta DPS benchmarks), then it certainly isn't too much to ask what low means (i.e., what the DPS is for a whatever dagger build they tested) and what they think it should be.

[Henry.5713]

Interesting discussion, though you guys seem to be comparing apples and oranges here.

I don't doubt that there are certain builds (such as the build shown ealier) which utilize specific traits in Open World PvE or solo Story content.Builds which might be quite effective in these environments, builds which make you feel they already have adequate damage for PvE given the level of performance such content is balanced around.Looking at the build... Personal defenses, Duel Wielding trait as a constant buff, Brave Stride to make engaging certain mobs far less tedious, Might makes Right and it's benefits, etc. Combine that with respectible damage from daggers (not great but not terrible either) and you have a good, even if slightly gimmicky, build.

That said, instanced group content is an entirely different story. The actual difference in damage between axes and daggers might seem small enough at first glance but widens significantly and up to a huge gap once we move towards properly min-maxing around party play. Is dagger damage pathetically low then? Not exactly but both MH and OH daggers are entirely outshined by axes in instanced PvE in terms of raw damage. The lack of a powerful modifier in comparison to axes (Axe Mastery) is just the icing on the cake.Where do I think daggers should be? Given the access to boon removal and an interrupt which makes MH a good choice in Fractals - I'd say around 15-20% behind axes would be a fair enough spot. Where would I place them currently in such content? Probably around 50% behind after all of the nerfs.

[starlinvf.1358]

@Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

@"Loading.4503" said:Just gonna throw in my 2 cents here

The problem i see with this whole discussion are 2 things

1 dagger is just simply a pvp/wvw weapon

2 everyone is looking at the weapon by itself, you gotta look at the entire sb line. I keep seeing people saying whats 1 interrupt, but the entire line and the weapon isnt meant to be a cc playstyle like a hammer or mace where u utilize the stuns, the dagger and spellbreaker line is meant to be a boonhate playstyle with the mediocre damage to peel off people

Example would be if i was fighting an ele in wvw, if i dont keep stripping all the boons the ele keeps applying say with an axe and just rely on the damage alone its gonna go nowhere, but if i use a dagger and strip boons nonstop and deal just a little bit less damage its easier to fight one. Youre probably gonna say well thats wvw, and go back to point 1

The problem is that if dagger were truly a boon hate weapon our AA would strip a boon like mesmer sword.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mind_Spike

It wouldn't need to be built into the skill if the SB has baseline traits for it. Like how Guardians only have a few skills that apply burning, but Virtue of Justice makes all of its attacks capable of applying burning, AOE burning, and more AOE burning.

[Kiroshima.8497]

Dagger 2 should convert 2 boons into slow (1 second per boon), and the Dagger Burst should apply Disenchantment.

Dagger 5 should be like a mini WoD instead of an aoe damage pressure (defensive with extra anti boon pressure).

This could help D/D have more of a boon breaker identity instead of a "land dagger 3, then 4" identity.