Renegade Improvements

Renegade is fun. Rev is my main since release. I use a wvw zerg Shiro build and other times a zerg Mallyx build with great success (anyone can seem good with a zerg backing you) but do not attempt pvp with it. Therein lies the problem; Renegade is clunky and not combat self-sufficient. Bow damage is subpar (takes my ranger short bow 4-5 hits to kill a drake; takes 11-12 hits with renegade short bow to kill same foe). No mobility. No sustain. No spike. This is an elite spec and needs to act like one.

PROFESSION MECHANIC

F2 Heroic Command: Removed cast time. Also inflicts blind to 5 nearby foes. Adds break stun.F3 Citadel Bombardment: Adds 1 vulnerability (10s) for each strike. Gives 3 energy back for each missile that didn't hit. Yup all missiles don't hit. Sometimes it only hits once. If you can't fix the strikes, give energy back for those that didn't hit. If I have 10 missiles and it costs me 30 to cast, that is 3 energy for each. Thats a lot of energy spent for a skill that fails a lot. Maybe fix by adding a burn field like the wvw mortar so the cost is warranted even if some missiles fail to hit.F4 Orders from Above: Adds vigor (4s).F5 Self-Destruct: Adds F5 button (Alle/0c/0r) to destroy all your active summons and deal heavy damage plus their destruction effect(s) depending on which summon(s) was destroyed and how much energy was consumed. You heard me right, the cost is consume all energy with 0 cast and 0 recharge. How fitting for something called self-destruct. The damage/effect scales with how much energy you spent and how many summons you destroyed. F5 is inactive (greyed out) if your summon isn't active. This way you won't accidentally spend all energy for nothing. This skill synergies well with Charged Mists.

BOW SKILLS

Bloodbane Path: Adds quickness (1s) on critical hits. Adds fire field (1.5s) in a rectangular path. Adds Combo Finisher: Physical Projectile (20% chance). This skill is useless. Auto attack does better than this so I added these changes.Sevenshot: Adds shadowstep to convergence point if all arrows fail to strike a foe. This provides a mobility option.Spiritcrush: Adds torment. Increased duration to (5s). Can now use the mists to cast behind you. This prevents the unwanted self interrupts and energy loss.Scorchrazor: Adds fury (5s). Increased damage (burn and physical). Evades (¾s) on cast. Can now use the mists to cast behind you. This prevents that silly non-cast because you aren't faced the perfect direction.

RENEGADE SUMMONS

Breakerazor's Bastion: Adds Aegis (3s) when cast. Inflicts blind to 5 nearby foes when destroyed. Adds flip skill that shadowsteps you to center of summon.Razorclaw's Rage: Inflicts bleed to 5 nearby foes when destroyed. Adds flip skill that shadowsteps you to center of summon.Icerazor's Ire: Inflicts damage to 5 nearby foes when destroyed. Adds flip skill that shadowsteps you to center of summon.Darkrazor's Daring: Removed breakstun. Removed stability. Inflicts knockback to 5 nearby foes when destroyed. Adds flip skill that shadowsteps you to center of summon.Soulcleave's Summit: Reduced cast time to (¾s). Steals life and burns 5 nearby foes when destroyed. The dismiss flip changes to a shadowstep/breakstun flip that breaks stuns and shadowsteps you to center of summon with a 2 ammo usage. After all the ammo is used, it becomes a dismiss flip. The shadowstep/breakstun is usable as long as this summon is active and you have ammo. To destroy it, use F5. To dismiss it, use all the ammo first. This allows you to keep your current energy and elite without needing to destroy it unnecessarily. It's a strategic balance between spending the shadowstep/breakstun to keep the elite on immediate standby vs destroying it now. The longer you wait to decide, the less energy you have remaining and less damage for self-destruction due to the upkeep and spending other skills.

Each summon deals damage/effect upon destruction (this is not the same as the skill ending). The new F5 button does more damage/effect and gives you more control over the summon's demise rather than waiting for a foe to destroy it or not destroy it or just walking away from it. Since summons are easily killed, cc'd, etc, dealing damage to foes caught in the summon field blast radius makes sense. That's what Kalla does.

Each normal summon gets a flip skill to be used once per cast that lets you shadowstep to the center of the respective summon. The elite summon gets an ammo flip skill that is also a stun break. Since renegade summons can't target, are easy to kill, cursor gets lost, invalid path to target (this happens a lot and drives me crazy), etc, the summons end up in places where you didn't intend. This change puts you right in the center of the summon. This provides mobility and a slight defensive option. Renegade currently has one stun break and forces you to use the summon when it isn't warranted. Now with my change/addition, this gives another option to break a stun that shadowsteps you back in the elite summon. Soulcleave's Summit takes too long to cast, summon is easy to kill, has a hefty upkeep plus using other skills cost enough as it is. Ya gotta give it something to be effective in combat.

TRAITS

Wrought-Iron Will: Adds stability (2s).Sudden Reversal: Increased damage. Increased knockdown to 4s. I have to wait for a foe to initiate it, have to spend a stunbreak, and they have to be adjacent to me. Too much foe reliance for this to happen and for a small effect.All for One: Adds Inflicts weakness on each pulse for (4s) to 5 foes in the summon field. Changes protection upon cast to each pulse for (4s). This allows some time to shadowstep to the summon to get some benefit instead of losing it since you may not be in the summon upon casting.Brutal Momentum: Just wanted to mention the negative aspect on this minor grandmaster that should not exist. Soon as you dodge, you lose the 33% critical chance. Um, what? That is odd. This is one reason why I added vigor to Orders from Above and fury to Scorchrazor.Vindication: Adds Missiles are now air strikes. The mist portals form above the target and functions just like the Air-Strike Grenade in the Mists but still see the missile animations so foes can have a tell to dodge them.Lasting Legacy: Adds 1 stack bleeding to all bow skills.

What I wrote is from daily experience with the Renegade. So fun to play but has a lot of drawbacks. You know something isn't right when playing Renegade. You do the best you can to determine what changes can help since you can't test it. The intent is to share new ideas so anet can see where we are going with this. Others will post their great ideas too. Thank you for reading.

Hmmmmmm, I'd have to think on the rest but I'm not too keen on the idea of shadowstepping to the center of your summons. I also think adding movement to Sevenshot is not going to be all that useful. For starters it I think the path would be easily blocked by whatever is standing between you and the convergence point. I think Scorchrazor is where the movement would need to go with a backward roll after firing the shot.

Although I think renegades could use some buffs or quality of life changes, these changes are way over the top. A lot of your problems could be solved with the current invocation traitline. It breaks stun when you swap legends, and that is already powerful when used alongside the current darkrazor summon. Invocation also gives tons of fury, including when you swap legends, and renegade trait gives vigor every time you gain fury. Having fury on scorchrazor and vigor on Orders from Above is pretty random and extra.

The whole shadowstep mechanics seem pretty gimmicky at best because it doesn't really do much except turn renegade into a better thief with 3-4 free 600-900 range teleports from the summons and the sevenshot. With the perma superspeed from Shiro, I'm pretty sure this renegade will have higher mobility than classes whose sole purpose is mobility.

Then with your changes, revenants will have 2 free stun breaks every ten seconds from the extra no cast time heroic command which only costs 10 energy. Then you want to add 2 ammos of soulcleave stun break, which by itself is as powerful as firebrand's elite mantra before the extra life steal, burn effect, and shadowstep. Then theres also the 2 seconds of stability on evade from your version of wrought iron. If thats not tanky enough, you want to add blinds and aegis to the heal and the no cast time heroic command to basically nullify tons of physical damages as well. You'll basically make revenants better guardians by doing their mechanics, but better, while also not suffering from the reduced health that guardians have.

Then theres the Bloodbane path. If you have 100% crit rate, you can get 100%+ quickness uptime from spamming bloodbane path off cooldown before any concentration. In pve its already a strong skill, with this buff it'll just make it even stronger. I'm pretty sure at some point, entire raid parties will consist of just this iteration of renegade because you can provide pretty much every offensive boon to yourself including quickness and alacrity.

I think you can see how some of these changes can be pretty broken.

Just tried Renegade.

I wish the summons couldnt get destroyed, doesnt make any sense to me. Also wish Icerazor Ire would have some form of splash effect.It would open up a decent power renegade build and give revenants some alternatives to deal AoE damage :/

I'm not really sure about the whole concept but I like the idea od punishing enemies who destroy Renegade's Summons.

In some ways you have the right idea in that Renegade needs mostly a string of straight utility buffs for Kalla to be useful in PvP. I'm one of the 3 or so people that can play Ren in sPvP and actually stay above plat, and all of us do not use Kalla but use some derivative of Jalis/Shiro power with charged mists and every sustain trait possible taken. I like the idea of letting Rev shadowstep to their summons, that could definitely do for a way to make Kalla more versatile without directly making it do more damage.

However some of your ideas are actually over the top, such as F2 breaking stuns or WIW granting stab. Renegade needs buffs, but it doesn't need to be mirage class-carry cancer 2.0. Too much stun immunity and passives granting it is bad as it turns the class into a scrub-pandering ezmode class which is the absolute last thing Rev ever needs. But in some other cases, your change to Darkrazor is actually a nerf lmao.

Some of your buffs to damage would also be a bit much because you have to understand that Renegade is NOT bad in pve at all. It's top DPS in quite a few raids. So any buffs to it should be almost strictly defensive/utility/sustain for making it viable in PvP, and some of the damage could even use a nerf. For instance in my Renegade suggestions thread I nerfed Brutal momentum to 25% crit chance, but gave it inherent 10% lifesteal for sustain and made it scale with endurance instead of be all-or-nothing.

Renegade obviously needs improvement. Whether my ideas are right or wrong are irrelevant. These are suggestions that may open more suggestions that could eventually solve the problem to finally have Anet say, "oh I see where you are going with this. Renegade needs mobility so what if we did it like this instead, tweak something here and there we can test it..." For all we know, Anet probably fixed it and waiting for the right time to announce it. I play devils advocate all the time. It's good because you can see both sides. The hard part is providing suggestions to improve Renegade that everyone likes. Everyone has their own version of how to the adjust the Renegade and everyone won't agree. Shadowstepping in the summon is a great idea. Too many times I cast it in the heat of combat and it ends in the wrong place even with the "show ground targeting" on then it gets destroyed. I needed that heal so i popped it but didn't meant to cast away from me and now I can't take advantage of the pulses nor condi reduction cause it is either destroyed or I can't reach it in time. Everyone can cast their heal and be done with it. This is not effective for Renegade so I suggested shadowstepping to it. It would be nice not to be destroyed but it ends up being like scourge shades. I'm trying to differentiate it.

I like your idea of shadowstepping into your summons but I want to expand on the idea rather than dismiss it. I'd like to make the flip-over skill "Mist Swap". This would allow you to swap places with your summons. This can help renegade in both kiting and chasing. Casting Icerazor's Ire/Darkrazor's Daring in front of you as you're retreating, then Mist Swap and your chaser will get crippled/dazed. Darkrazor can even inflict cripple if you trait Ashen Demeanor. As far as chasing, this is self-explanatory. Cast whatever summon, most likely Razorclaw's Rage as it's the cheapest on energy and weak, then swap to chase.

@"phoenixwil.6071" said:Renegade obviously needs improvement. Whether my ideas are right or wrong are irrelevant. These are suggestions that may open more suggestions that could eventually solve the problem to finally have Anet say, "oh I see where you are going with this. Renegade needs mobility so what if we did it like this instead, tweak something here and there we can test it..." For all we know, Anet probably fixed it and waiting for the right time to announce it. I play devils advocate all the time. It's good because you can see both sides. The hard part is providing suggestions to improve Renegade that everyone likes. Everyone has their own version of how to the adjust the Renegade and everyone won't agree. Shadowstepping in the summon is a great idea. Too many times I cast it in the heat of combat and it ends in the wrong place even with the "show ground targeting" on then it gets destroyed. I needed that heal so i popped it but didn't meant to cast away from me and now I can't take advantage of the pulses nor condi reduction cause it is either destroyed or I can't reach it in time. Everyone can cast their heal and be done with it. This is not effective for Renegade so I suggested shadowstepping to it. It would be nice not to be destroyed but it ends up being like scourge shades. I'm trying to differentiate it.

Actually, the ideas being right or wrong are very relevant. Bad ideas have a way of catching on (just look at all the make staff better threads). The last thing we need is for ANet thinking that these kinds of ideas are what we really want. I think ANet is fully aware that Renegade, and Revenant in general, needs work. However, shadowstepping to your summon isn't much of a fix that would actually make Renegade better. Your situation is highly specific and is easily fixable by getting better at targeting your AOE. However, in your specific case, if you cast your heal somewhere where it got destroyed, shadowstepping into whatever destroyed it is not going to do you any favors.

While renegade is in desperate need of improvements adding MORE stuff is not answer. Plies, you have to keep group PvE in mind, which is the only area that renegade does perform well and will end up outperforming, just to get everything else on par.

@"otto.5684" said:While renegade is in desperate need of improvements adding MORE stuff is not answer.

Actually it really is. Too many renegade skills just do too little, and lack any utility or sustain. You could call Renegades main problem as being "underloaded" in that it has too many straightforward abilities that bring only a very specific thing to the table.

This problem is best understood if you compare Renegade F2 to the new F2 of the other soldier professions

Warrior - Full counter:-Prevents damage-Gives stability-Dazes-Deals damage-Evades-Is unblockable-Can be traited to also inflict conditions, grant resistance, etc.

Guardian - Tome of Resolve-Passively regenerates health-Activates to grant new skills:Chapter 1: Desert Bloom ½ Tales of desert blooms create a wave of healing for your allies.Chapter 2: Radiant Recovery ¾ 4 Release magic from pages detailing the rebuilding of Vabbi, cleansing conditions on nearby allies. Allies are healed for eachChapter 3: Azure Sun ¾ 8 Inspired by countless poems describing the comforting powers of the water-reflected sun, grant boons to allies.Chapter 4: Shining River ¾ 10 Release a torrent of pages describing the water cycle of the Elon River. Heal allies and grant them swiftness.Epilogue: Eternal Oasis ¾ 12 Purify your allies with the waters of Amnoon and increase the healing they receive.-Can be traited to have lower CD, keep its passive, and remove conditions

Revenant - Heroic command-Grants 2 might based on your Kalla stacks-Can be traited to grant 1 more might OH BOY WE OP NOW BOIZ

Not much else really needs to be said on this one.

make bombardment function like it does underwater. it comes out straight and auto-tracks nearby enemies. boom, instantly useful in every mode.

Order From Above grants revival hp along side current effect

Citadel Bombardment energy cost is reduced by 2/3rds

Heroic Command changed to give allies healing, Might, and quickness. Cooldown changed.

Darkrazor's Daring energy reduced by 5

Razorclaw's Rage along side current effect, this also has an added support aspect added, that grants fury to nearby allies, or reduces damage with Protection for nearby allies in the area. Or make this into an attack as well along side the bleed on attack buff to allies. make this a bit more useful to power builds or even support builds.

Shortbow could use some love though. Shattershot really should be faster, more so when you consider the only other long-range weapon Revenant has is slower than molasses in the winter. I think firing as fast as the Ranger shortbow wouldn't be out of order. Scorchrazor needs an evade, so a backwards roll as you fire the shot.

@otto.5684 said:While renegade is in desperate need of improvements adding MORE stuff is not answer. Plies, you have to keep group PvE in mind, which is the only area that renegade does perform well and will end up outperforming, just to get everything else on par.

indeed.

atm renegade is in a good spot in pve (as i understand)in pvp and wvw not at all. which means renegade needs more love in the self sustain area or group support area but not in dmg area

self sustain we can consider stability, aegis, regen, protection, evade, blind, block, reflect, dmg reduction, barrier.consider the theme of renegade seem to me more blocks and barriers as a front liner who jumps in and enhance his team attacks

jalis is dmg reduction and stability, shiro is evade, ventari is regen, herald is protection

so regarding F skillsheroic command- give barrier 2k (base value to each allies 2000+1*healing power).citadel bombardment - burn and crippleorder from above - also proc aegis with alacrity

these changes made for more group and self sustain. in wvw can be nice add to prevent burst dmg along the scourge barriers.cripple is nice to maybe able to hit more couple of times enemies and when need to escape maybe cripple your enemyaegis again for dmg reduction for 4 attacks. again group and self sustain which is needed in pvp and wvw

regarding utilities i would love that the summon wouldn't take dmg. though they can be cc same as now. they can be up for few sec and for each summon you lose nrg like soulcleave. (if anet wants them to be killed than reduce all cd immensely (even like soulcleave)

breakrazor bastion - cost 3 nrg. for 5 sec you take 50% less condition dmg and direct dmg. reduce cd of the skills to 10 sec.razorclaw rage - cost 3 nrg. for 10 sec your attack inflict bleeding and grant small barrier (300+0.3*healing power). reduce cd of the skills to 10 sec.icerazor ire - cost 2 nrg. for 10 sec also your attack also enhance with chill. reduce dmg from summon accourdingly

darkrazor daring - cost 3 nrg. for 10 sec also your attack enhance with blind with 2 sec interval. reduce cd of the skill to 8 sec. (more breakstun)

these changes make renegade more group support and self sustain in various situations.heal skill reduce also direct dmg which is good in pvp on a point. the skill cost 15 nrg so i reduce the cd by 66% to 10 sec. so even if you cc you have 10 sec cd to activate it again. will push your enemy to cc your healing. the pulsing healing is 50% shorter but you can proc it more often if not cc.with small barriers you gain again self and group sustain. also make this skill viable in pvp and wvwicerazor now chill with your attack so can work with corruption trait line.darkrazor also blind which also reduce some dmg and also the cd is shorter so more breakstun available.

regarding weapon skillsseven shot should be evade skill for 1 sec.

regarding trait linewrought iron will - increase regen and retal to 3 sec.ashen demeanor - instead of cripple it will immobilize for 1.5 sec. to open nice burst comboendless enmity - gain fury when enemy is below 75% and not 50%. so we gain vigor more oftensudden reversal - increase dmg by 100%. with 20 sec cd this trait should do more dmg as you wanna think maybe to take the cc to breakstun it for comboheartpiercer - SB arrow pierce and now explode on impact and inflict burning for 1 sec around the target (180r). little condi cover and dmg. not a must. but in wvw can be nicerall for one - summon grant protection for 1 sec each 2 sec . again nice team supportvindication - also increase burning duration by 50%. can be nicer to use such expensive nrg skill.lasting legacy - Barrier duration prolong by 50%. instead of 5 sec it will be 7.5 sec. so you can stack it up with razorclaw.

maybe the combination off all the changes might be OP so make it step by step

I like the proposed ideas at least for the F2, F3, and F4 skills. Moving the stunbreak away from Darkrazor and over to Heroic Command and removing its cast time would be an especially good thing.